I very rarely am unequivocal about anything, commenting on job status during the season, throughout my entire career will not be asked about those things, it's not something I have or will ever do. That being said, contextually, there's huge believer in stability and continuity and that those are competitive advantages in professional sports that reacting and change don't necessarily mean improvement. So we need to be better, we have to be better, you know, I think stability and continuity and making adjustments are where I'm focused right now. You look at the best in class organizations and you know, sports teams, there are sports teams that weather, you know, pressure and weather, you know, challenges and stick with people and allow them to make adjustments, or certain you can be better, you make a change. When you lose your sales or impact, you know, I think that the renovations were done with the expectation that from a long-term perspective, not one year, we have over 10 to 15 years, we can buffer ourselves somewhat from year to year of volatility and it's done 100%, you know, but yeah, there's direct correlation between winning and fans coming to the ballpark, so we need to win. I want winners, Karen, win with them, I don't remember the rest of the round, it was just great. Is that Tomlin? No, that was not Tomlin. Former 49ers head coach Singletary, of course, of course, of course, I want winners. Vernon Davis, eat it, God, what a rant that was, and truly an all-timer football coaches. I know we've already done the like football is the best thing, but it's like, they will give you some all-timers, like her med words, put your name on it, playoffs, diddly poo offensively, players play to win the game, they're just the best, they truly are, and it's exactly what popped into my head. You got to win. You got to win. You heard it from Shapiro there yesterday. You got to win if you're playing at Christie Pitts, but if you go dump hundreds of millions of dollars into your ballpark, you really got to win. I think the other thing with baseball fandom as well is that people are, they can be sucked in relatively easily, I'd say. The idea of going to the ballpark, it's much more a thing like, you know, hey, like, you know, everybody's finances are what they are, but you're pretty lucky if you're able to go to like one or two Leafs Raptors games a year. The J's are, you know, a little more accessible in that regard. I think that's why it's also more important to kind of be able to suck in the casual fan. Like the building for at least, rap's going to be relatively full just because of the scarcity of it all. There's 162, or I guess 81 of these home games every year, and there's just the more kind of casual, let's check out a game this week and let's go there. I think that's the other thing, but I mean, the thing I think most people are taking out of what Papyrus said yesterday, it's certainly the thing that jumps to mind was the talk of continuity there. The idea of, hey, you make change if it's better, you absolutely should do that. But are you always certain that what's out there is better? Now I am a believer of that. Generally speaking, I hate change for change sake. I hate get this guy out of here. We'll figure out what's next after. I don't like that, but I also don't think you can allow that to kind of shackle you into the situation you're in, the, the terror of kind of what else is out there. And that that's what it seems like the Blue Jays are kind of dancing with right now. Yeah, they really are. And boy, here's the one thing that I do struggle with. Like I agree, change for the sake of change is not always a good thing. I think there's some value, like we talk about, you know, the change of scenery for certain guys. Like I get that. But I also look at this team and say, okay, if you want to win games in 2025, like you kind of need a lobotomy here, because you've traded away guys that are veteran guys that maybe could have been part of this thing in 2025. But also the guys that you have left and some of the guys that you traded as well, may not have been a part of it or may not have been good enough to help with that process. So I look at this and say, if you are going to be competitive in 2025 and try to win ball games and keep that building full that you just renewed, you've got a lot of work to do. And I do wonder if I wonder what their thoughts are on the free agent class that's coming up. I also wonder like they made these moves to acquire some pieces like how many of these pieces are going to be a part of this thing next year because you move them in order to get better now. Yeah, I think the other I think I should probably clarify something I just realized there. I am totally fine with change for change sake when it's a baseball team that looks like this way in terms of the roster players that are there. I do think you have to be careful with change for change sake from an organizational standpoint and that can mean trading bow. That can mean firing the GM that can mean firing the president. Sure. Now also, I think they should totally fire the GM and I think someone new should be in charge there. Let me just state that unequivocally. But I also think that I can understand the idea of Shapiro. Part of it I think is the self preservation of it all of like you're not going to get to hire a third guy after you hire another GM here. But I also think it's part of the, you know, he brought Ross Atkins in because he wanted them to be part of this plan. They wanted to be able to do it together. And I think that's why, I mean, part of it is, you know, you just don't want to make unequivocal or you don't want to make hard and fast statements at this time of the year. But I also think part of it is they're tied at the hip for a reason and it's that they have, they have gone about this, their careers, you know, together in this way and they came to Toronto together because the two guys saw a great working relationship. But I think that's also something we got to kind of keep in mind. It's now time to welcome in our next guest. This insider brought to you at Don Valley, North Lexus, where you could expect X events online and in the showroom, visit Don Valley, North Lexus dot com. Very, very pleased to be joined by shy to be the MLB insider sports, that baseball, columnist and Blue Jays reporter, uh, shy, thanks for jumping on. How you doing this morning? I'm all right. How are you guys doing? Well, uh, quite, quite frankly, uh, it's not often I've said this, but thank goodness for Mark Shapiro. You know, I was getting a little dry on the content front here, Canada's men's basketball team loss and then like the grass had kind of a slow day. I needed something. So I'm, I'm buoyed by Mark Shapiro's comments. Not what I heard, just that I heard something, uh, what was your kind of, I won't lead the witness here. What was your general takeaway if there was one, uh, from, from us hearing from Shapiro yesterday? Well, you know, I kind of spent the day initially be like just trying to tea leaf or read the tea leaves and see where the bread crumb trails leading us. But, you know, the more I started kind of thinking about it, it's, it, it struck me that, you know, what's, what's the order of operations that the bridges have to go through here? You know, it's like, we can talk about raw sac consists future and we can talk about Mark Shapiro's contract status and we could talk about the extensions from bone glad, but everything is intertwined to a certain degree, right? And if you're essentially have to pick a link, like what is the organizational direction? And is that organizational direction best led by Ross Atkins? Is it best led by Mark Shapiro? If there is a change, can you hire a GM? Can you hire a new GM without having Mark Shapiro's contract status so first? Because who's taking a job for, you know, presumably need like three or four years at least with if the president only has one year left on his contract and all these issues are intertwined and that you almost have to decide some of them simultaneously and that's where I just kept lending and that, you know, there was the hint that Ross Atkins would be back, but there, you know, as much as Mark Shapiro says he values stability, you didn't hear him making a case for Ross Atkins's return in that spot and it's possible that he is coming back and locked in and he just didn't feel this was the time or place to make that case, but it just, the thing that I kept coming back to is just thinking about this is that if you're, if you're going to bring him back, then you probably, or if that was at least decided and settled, then you're probably making a bit of a stronger statement than that to try and kill any speculation around them. And if you've got decisions made or a path and all these things locked in, then you're not leaving as much room for maneuver as Shapiro left in this comments yesterday. And so the overall feeling that I was left with is that a lot more is unsettled still around the bludges than maybe you would think and given the volume of decisions that they have to make, that's not an ideal scenario for this team to be in right now. So talking about continuity and liking the idea of continuity is fine because Mark Shapiro and Ross Atkins have been here for a while. At the end of this month, it'll be nine years that Mark Shapiro has been the president of this organization, but continuity, you get me when I see this is there on their third manager here, continuity gets me when, you know, an extension for both Vladimir Guerrero Jr. and Bulbashet have not been done and one probably won't get done. And there's been constant turnover. And so I, the whole continuity thing just sounded like he was more talking about saving his own job rather than what this organization has actually done. You know, I'm not sure that that's necessarily where I'd land on that. I think that, yes, from a global perspective, that's what he's certainly discussing the value of making sure that you're having one direction or one ongoing connection. You're not just making sudden shifts in approach and direction and essentially creating whiplash for your employees in your organization because you keep on doing things in a different way. But those comments were really centralized around adkins. And so I guess you could look at it, he's trying to make the case for himself to a certain degree. But I think right now he's in place and that I don't think is changing, at least for the time being. But there are major questions in direction that this team has to answer. That's just about 25. What are you doing in 26 and beyond? And the picture for 26 and beyond is a little bit different after the trade deadline, but at the same time, while the trade deadline did a very good job of raising the organizational floor in terms of talent, it probably didn't acquire a franchise trajectory altering player. Right? Yeah. Sorry, Joe. I don't think so. I mean, maybe, right? And I think there's ability there, and can you fix them, but you still have to figure out, in some ways, maybe the first question is, can you rock up at least one of latter vote? Because that actually changes the trajectory. If you want to be a sustainable winner, well, you've got to have at least one of those guys, because it's pretty difficult to be a sustainable winner without either of them, because you don't have another one of those guys coming in your system. And so, is that the first domino that needs to fall, or does it need to be the decision on GM or an extension for the president first? Because are you allowing someone to put a not one or two nine figure contract on the books for the franchise and then saddling what could potentially be new executives with that down the road? I just think that there's so many big decisions, and the way that they are all interconnected, it just comes difficult to where you started. And so, yeah, we can talk about stability and continuity, but you need stability and continuity to get to that point, but do you want that stability or continuity, or do you feel after nine years doing some different voices and different points of views? And that's where I came back and landed on. Yeah, I think there are a lot of big decisions to make. But I also, and I don't know, maybe I'm wrong in this, I'd be floored if one of them hasn't to a certain extent already been made in the idea of extending Vladimir Greer Jr. I mean, obviously, there's a walkway number for both parties where it's like, well, hold on, you want that, that's too much, or hold on, you want to give me that, that's way too little. But it does just seem like there's been this trending, you know, the two sides kind of tracking towards one another, and they're being mutual interest there. Can you make the case that it would actually make sense to, because if you're giving Vladi the, you know, the deal that he is worth, whatever that number ends up being, that's not just a GM conversation, like, of course, Mark Spyro is going to be involved in that. Could you make the argument that it would be better for them to get that out of the way? And I'm not saying given the money right now, but I don't know if you can find the room, I don't see why not. But could you not make the argument that you want to get that done with and then go forward with whatever the front office is going to look like? Because I just think that is such a understood position of where the team would like to be that, I don't know that it matters who the GM is, I don't, I couldn't see that swaying their mind on paying Vladi or not. Well, to an extent, it does matter because if you are signing Vladimir Jr. for instance, like you're not doing that in a vacuum, right? You're doing that with the intent to leverage him down the road, it's like you have to be sure you can take advantage of having him and that you can augment and support him properly to make that make sense because otherwise, you just have like Todd Helton who has a hall of fame career in the vacuum of a Colorado Rockies team that is completely irrelevant. So it's not just a decision of, okay, we're going to extend Vlad or we're going to extend both. It's also how are you taking advantage of that and what does that mean for your payroll and what does that mean for how you're managing your farm system or what does that mean for how you're augmenting it? It's not just a singular decision and that's the point of kept going back to like every single thing that you look at that the Blue Dias have to fix, it's not just a singular decision that happens in a vacuum, it's everything is interconnected and whatever you decide in one ends up impacting in the others. And so you need almost a global view to look at this, you have to examine this from really from 10,000 feet with a holistic mindset because otherwise you're inadvertently locking yourself on a path that you may not want by just making one decision without fully considering the impact on all the others. Yeah, that's interesting. And yeah, of course, like all the tentacles line up, I just, I tend to think of all, let's say there's 10 doors the Blue Dias could walk through here in the next two or three years. I just think a lot of them probably when you open it on the other side, it has Vladi smiling and he's holding like two big bags of money with him and he's earned it quite frankly. Speaking of the money, you mentioned the payroll there. I have the quote in front of me, never do we commit to payroll in August, but what I can say is that whatever the payroll ends up being, I would not characterize there being any large scale, large scale pullback on payroll. That's from Shapiro yesterday. How much do you think you talk about things being intertwined? That is intertwined to them being able to get under the CBT with all the moves they made at the deadline. Like how important do you think that was in order for them to continue to be able to spend money the way they've been doing going forward? I don't think that was necessarily a goal or a need because you might have approached the deadline a little bit differently if, at least in a few instances, if that was the need. But to me, I thought his choice of language was very interesting and I'll throw in the caveat that is this is August and this is not a point where payrolls get finalized, but he used the phrase in the past that we expect to be in the same neighborhood of where we have been. This year and yesterday he used the term don't expect a major, I wouldn't characterize it as a major pullback. Yeah, large scale pullback on payroll. Large scale pullback. Exactly. Exactly. And so that... It's a little different. It's a little different. Exactly. He's been around this long enough that he chooses his words carefully and his words have meaning. So does that mean that their payroll is in the $225 or $230 million range as opposed to $240 million or can they get back to the CBT again and maybe get beyond it? There's some room for interpretation there. And so I thought that was significant and again, that's also a byproduct of maybe what you can accomplish or what you feel you can accomplish and what you can sell to ownership in terms of what you can accomplish. So I thought again, the wording I thought was very... It just pricked my antenna out. It's not nothing. You're right. The language was different. Shy, you know, Mark Shapiro made reference to, you know, competing because, hey, we just did a rental on this building and you want the seats to be filled. When we look at 2025 and being competitive, like I said this to Brandon, like it feels like this team needs a lobotomy here, not just an overhaul, it needs a complete lobotomy. And that's where I look at, okay, is this going to be done via trade? Is this going to be done via spending more in free agency? But however they do it, there's a lot of work to be done. When you assess this team and you made mention of it, it's not just one singular focus. Like there's a lot of things that need to be done here. When you look at this team, where is the biggest need that they have for you right now, especially after the trade deadline and moving some guys that, you know, had some term and maybe they need to figure this out, for you, where would you start? That's an interesting question. Where do I start? I look at the needs this way, so they're going to have to rebuild their bullpen, right? You've probably got three or four pieces that you can feel confident in for the bullpen for next year and you need eight plus dudes. So that's absolutely one glaring area. Then we've been talking about this ever since to Oscar Hernandez got traded, but the Blue Jays need somebody to hit behind Vladimir career or junior in the forest spot. And that's got to be somebody who can do some real damage on a consistent basis because otherwise teams are just going to start treating Vladimir or junior like Aaron Judge and he's not going to get anything to hit. Then you've also got to augment the rotation and, you know, Yareel Rodriguez has shown promise and Biden and Francis has shown promise, but you've got a, and they've got Jake Bloss, who's going to start a triple A on Saturday and he's obviously got promising was a centerpiece of their trade deadline return, but do you trust that or do you need another body at least one in the rotation as well, which I would think you do. So those are a lot of items that, and part of the sort of how you attack that is how the baseball hander plays out and where the areas of opportunities arise, but, you know, Marc Shapiro identified the bullpen as one of was the first thing he mentioned when he talked about why the season is played out the way that it has. And you can certainly make that case, but I also just think that we've been talking about the offensive issues for this team for a couple seasons now. And it's not going to get better without another impact bad in that lineup. Yeah, I think the one thing, I mean, you could point to the bullpen. You could point to the lineup. I think the one thing we can all agree at is you can't point to one thing. And that's why the season's kind of gone, gone the way it has. I mean, there was years, you know, you look back to that team that just missed out on the bullpen or just missed out on the playoffs when Simeon was here and you could say, yeah, they would have addressed the pen a little sooner, maybe, maybe, but this is the one issue. This is a one issue team, at least not this season. A shy really, really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks so much for jumping on the problem guys. Have a good day. There he goes. A shy devotee that insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom visit Don Valley, North Lexus.com also, you can check out Shai's work on sportsnet.ca, including his latest unsettled Blue Jays facing many issues, including where to begin. Oh, just that. Just, just where do we start? Generally speaking, when I have a problem, I like what I know what the problem is and not. I have a problem. I wonder what it is. There's a problem with this out here. I thought it was interesting with Shai said about obviously the many paths this team can go down. I just do not see a world where, quite frankly, any of those paths involved Vladimir Grode, Jr. not getting a big old bag of money from the team, whether it's Shapiro, gives it to a Mackins, James click, I don't know, maybe the Rogers family wants to hand it to himself. I don't know. Here's cash. Yeah. Like, like, like, like Scrooge McDonough. There you go. Just like here. Throw money by just throw it at him. But I cannot see a world where that happens or else there should have been way more concrete conversations about trading him at the deadline. And I understand that raises its own set of questions of who's making that trade and do you want him making it? But man, if you're, if you were not going to trade or if there was a world where you're not extending Vlad, I think there should have been much more consideration of trading him at the deadline. And I just, again, I can't see a world. If there's, there's 10 ways the offseason plays out. Did nine of them have Vladi with an extension at the end of it? Because I think they do. Well, 10 of them should have. I don't disagree. Right? Like, we're at that point now, you know, life, anything can happen. Of course. Of course. Maybe we get another pandemic. Please God. No, boy. Just clarifying all these guys. No. Yeah. Like, I, I, I don't know how at this point, if you believe that you are going to be competitive or need to be competitive, that Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is not a part of this thing. That's just, that just can't be a thing. I could see a scenario in which you trade Boboshette and you tried to get better for 2025 because, and I know that sounds really weird, but it's because Boboshette plays at the premium position and there are teams clamoring for a guy like that. And for some teams, it may be like the Juan Soto situation, and I'm not comparing the players. I'm just comparing the situation. You bring them into your organization for a year, show them what you got, and then you can resign him. That, and, and maybe some team is out there that it was offering him a boatload of money. But I also think that that, that works differently for different orgs, right? Sure. If you're the Yankees. So, and I'm not saying the J's can't do this. Like they, like, there's a world where if the money was there, I think Marcus Simeon would have been fine to continue to be a Blue Jay, right? I'm not saying the J's can't be part of that, but not every team operates in that way, right? Cause it's like, Hey, welcoming someone into the org of the Yankees and you know, I can hate them as much as I want, but I think baseball players feel a little different. Unfortunately about it, once they're aware of the pinstripes, it's a little different than, Hey, you're going to be a guardian or you're going to be a ranger or something like that. Yeah. It's not, it's not the same thing. Now, there is also a scenario here. And it's one that I hadn't really thought of, but again, making the connection to what we see in other sports. Could you envision a scenario on which Boba Shet plays the entire year for the Toronto Blue Jays because they want to be competitive and they think that they are better with him than without him and run the risk of losing him for nothing. Only only if Vladi signed to an extension is the caveat that I'm right. I'm going to throw one more in only if they are bonafide world series contenders, not which they need a lot of work, not two games back of a wild card spot. I think that's just playing with with too much fire. I think also the way the just tenor, you know, the relationship and this thing, these things can always change and sometimes you read too much into it, but it feels like there's been a kind of complete flip where before Vlad was going, I want to be here. Give me the money. Give me the money. And then the Jays are a little, we'll see. Whereas with Beshat, they were like, Hey, I'd love to give you the money here. Let's buy out all your arbeers. It just feels like the relationship is, you know, I don't think it's fractured to a point where you can't see the two sides coming together. You're going to win a hundred something games next year, everything, everything takes care of itself. There's so much road between now where this team sits and then winning a hundred games for that next year, anytime soon. Yeah, I'm totally, I mean, a hundred games boy, that would be nice. Ninety two games would be nice, ninety games would be nice, but I look at this team and I just, I can't, I find it really hard to see the path to relevance in 2025 outside of making major, what's the word that marks your priorities, changes and he likes continuity. Well, continuity, this flies in the face of that because you need to make massive changes. It was at least, it was at least a breath of fresh air that it's like, okay, the, the budget's not going to change. Like we, you know, not it was interesting what I said though about in the past, and it's funny. I, I don't know about you. Some people, I feel like people either love these or hate them. I love semantic arguments where it's like, yeah, it really means the same thing, but what's your vision of it? It's like, that sounds very semantic argument to me of not a significant pushback, but same neighborhood. It's like, I don't know, you could take two steps back and still be in the same neighborhood. I think it's very interesting, but to shy's point, Shapiro knows what he's doing up there and did change the language on that for a reason. Yes, he did because I don't envision that they're going to spend as much as they have, but they have to spend something again, you have to spend something in order to be relevant because this team ain't it. Um, well, and it's just they're, they can only clear so much money off the books quite quite frankly, like, okay, George Springer, it's a completely different conversation, but it's like, if you wanted to move Kevin Gossman, you would have had that conversation. I don't know, like a day after he had this complete game, not not that long before the trade debt. Correct. You would have, if you wanted to move Chris Bassett, that was a trade deadline conversation as well. I just like there, there are players that they're going to need on this team. So the payroll can only shrink so much. And I don't say that to think, because I do, I do think people hear that and they go, Oh my God, it's going to be some big pushback. I don't think it'll be something like that. I think it's probably, you know, like a Chad green type that you don't get with that money if they, if there is the drawbacks. Yeah, they are. I believe that they are going to be players in free agency because they have shown nothing to lead us to believe that they aren't. This front office has been given the resources to go out and sign big free agents and they have been able to do that. And I don't think that that changes this year. The problem is, is that with the situation that they're in, do players look and say, I'm going to need a little bit more to go play there. And that is part of the, that is part of the conversation. I have always found it really funny in sports in general. This is kind of a big, broad conversation, but people always say, Oh, well, the taxes are higher in Canada than they are in certain parts of the US and the J's have to pay more. But in reality, the J's shouldn't have to pay more because players are making 30% more than what they have to spend while they're here. Yeah, there was the, I'm trying to remember. I think it was like Dan Robson did the big breakdown a few weeks ago in the athletic. And I think just on like NHL players and taxes and all of that. And I think I, I, there is a 30%, but I just think you do get dinged so much more than especially in some of the like no tax dates. Oh, well, that has one, a one to live in that. But how many guys are going to no tax dates and making like in base? No, no, you're not. Specifically, right? Yeah, you're not wrong. It's not exactly the same. I guess there is like two Texas options opposed to the one in the NHL, but, but yeah, I see your point there. It's a, the other thing I think as well is that yeah, that's half the year, right? Like I don't think there's a lot of Toronto blue jays who do not hail like Jordan Romano style from Toronto that is setting up shop here for the year. So I think that goes into it as well Clayton Kershaw plays in LA, but he has a home in Texas for a reason. Yeah. I don't know if you know this him and Matthew Stafford. They went to the same. I know. I know. It's like an unearth fact. They alone have found. I can't believe that that definitely never, ever been under on an op broadcast. God. When Stafford was in the Super Bowl and Kershaw was in the World Series in the same year, I'm like, we just, we just did this five months ago. We don't have to do it again, people. By the way, when you, when I said Clayton Kershaw, the first person that I thought of when I said that was Matthew, I know, it's just like they're forever, they're forever linked. But, but I, I think, but I do believe that they're going to be play. They may not be at the upper echelon of free agents, but I do believe that there is a scenario in which they are signing guys that can make an impact that are not the top tier, but a tier below. Yeah. And the thing about shopping in that class is you better get it right because those, they can prove to be incredible bargains, but they can also kind of be Albatross is that can hang around your neck a little bit. Somebody who I would never refer to as an albatross. Wonder if he's got one in his life, though. I feel like a hockey guy like him is probably swung the sticks a couple of times. Jason Boekler, good to join us next, Sportsnet Hockey Central analyst, writer for Sportsnet.ca, founder of the Pro Hockey group, former NHL director of amateur scouting with the Florida Panthers. So he knows what a winner looks like. Bookes joins us next. Final segment coming up on Sportsnet 5.5, nine of the fan covering the blue jays from an analytical perspective. Jay's talk plus with Blake Murphy, be sure to subscribe and download Jay's talk on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Good morning, show final, final segment here, gunning, Marquesie, you got one more day of us. And then who knows who will find himself in the magical seat, it is me next week. Oh, it is. Okay. Like I'm happy to, I'm happy to have you here. It is just, yeah, I never, I never know. It's like I, I, who she walks through the magical, I feel like, I feel like a bullpen catcher at times here. I'm like, all right. Well, stuff's looking good today. I got a good report. Oh, no. Somebody else. I love working in, mixing in all my co-hosts here. I've loved getting the time with you and part of the reason I love getting you in here. And you know, I think, I think Ben has a very good governor of like what needs to be talked about on the show. But I feel like he would have been like, do we have to talk about hockey on, on August 8th. Well, find me something else that we're going to talk about. That's what I would say. And I would say we have talked about hockey every day. And especially if Jason Buchola is going to make himself available to us, then we better talk about hockey. And of course, founder of the pro hockey group, Bhukla joins us now. Boogs, how you doing, bud? Good morning, fellas. I'm better now. All right, I'm playing home from everything. I'm sitting in the Pearson International parking lot talking to you guys. So glad to do it. What a, what a nice man you are fresh off the plane. You're just surrounded by strangers and you're like, you know what, I need gunning to pester me about about hockey. You're out in Edmonton. Oh, Lincoln Gretzky cup. I got to talk to you about the next one. My biggest point of pride is as a Canadian hockey fan is, look, the rest of the world's catching up. You could say caught up, whatever you want to say. But it does feel like we have this, this way to kind of honor these phenoms. And you know, I used to say that we're, they've come around once a generation and it feels like it's been a little quicker than that. We have bard pretty quickly after McDavid and it feels like Gavin McKenna is the next one coming here. Boekla. Yeah. Absolutely. He's, he's really a special player guys. So you know, he's a little bit different. He's really a little bit different than the, than the other guys that are coming through and that he plays the wing. Now having said that though, honestly, he, he's all over the ice, you know, with it and without it, the puck on his stick that is and so, you know, positionally, it's not really, it doesn't hinder him that he's, that he's on the wing or anything like that. Especially in zone eggs and some puck always finds this guy and boy, oh boy, is he, you know, lead player like he had at the world championships in the spring as you know, he's an underage. He's not draft eligible till 2026 and at the, at the 118s in Finland, he had 10 goals and 10 assists this past spring and seven games just for a little perspective. And he's a, he's picked up right where he left off here with, with Team Canada, not as many points so far but well over a point of game and he's always got the puck. I can't, I can't, I can't overstate it. Like every shift, something's happening. So yeah, just to provide a little context, I could have done that when I asked the first questions. I'll do it on the second one here. 16 year old playing for the medicine hat Tigers, the latest to get exceptional status. And it's funny. I spent a little time out in Alberta, I had a golf trip out there, a little time in Edmonton, a little time closer to Calgary. And just your first answer of that was what I heard because you know, I'm talking to all the, all the buddies of mine out there and there, you know, like their hockey fans are watching this kid. They occasionally get to see him come to town or whatever it is. And it is exactly that. It's the, just the shock quite frankly that that he's able to do what he does. I think it's smart to you to point out that he is a little different. What do you think it is? Is it something in our blood? Is it something hockey Canada does? I mean, like we've Lord knows we've had enough conversations about maybe a lack of ability to develop goalies. But what do you think it is about our country, Bucala, that just allows us to kind of continue to produce these guys that feel like they have at the very least the chance to be generational talents. And it feels like they're coming along like every five years now. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Franchise players is how I'm labeling them. I mean, these are guys that, these are guys that can reenergize franchises, put people in the building, good for the bottom line, sell lots of t-shirts and sweatshirts and jerseys in the pro shop, all that kind of stuff. And I don't know, I can't put my finger on the reason why I will say this and we've talked a little before. I think the expense to play net for if you're a really good young athlete, but your parents are, you know, it is what it is, right? Like it's a mortgage payment to help fit a goal tender anymore. And it's just hard for some families to do that. But the buy-in has to be there and like, I forget about McKenna from where he was even last year in November, let's say, to where he is today. He just keeps the momentum. He has, he's riding this momentum in this wave and it's like, where is it going to stop between now and the end? Medicine has going to be a wagon here for a year and a half or so. They got Kate Lindstrom, they got Andrew Bascha, they've got McKenna. That's a good news story for Willie Desjardin, who's a coaching GM there in medicine hat. All right, Boox. I look at McKenna and I see these gaudy numbers and I, you know, like 97 points in 63 games. Like 61. 61. Sorry. Sorry. I apologize. Yeah. For though, I will say that for when I, when I look at this kid, I just see like the scariest thing to me is that the way that he moves and the, and his ability is incredible. But he's also, you know, six feet and he's still going to fill out his frame. Like there is, there feels like there's a next level to physical dominance as well for a player like this, doesn't there? Yeah. He's not ever, he's not ever going to be like when you look at his stature, let's assume that he's getting close. Maybe he's got another inch in them or inch or two. Hopefully, you know, that would be nice, you know, but he's going to be a guy that's going to play it about a buck 80, buck 85 and and nothing heavier than that because his dart and dash is a requirement for the way that he plays the game. And so he's never going to be a heavy set grinded out type of a guy. But his hand I coordination is something to speak of like, I don't want this kid, you know, baseball golf. I don't know what he's done lacrosse, maybe in the past, I'd have to find out. But, you know, it's, it's, I run out of some paralysis for certain guys like this, like Matt Lucille, Brini, obviously, Conor Bedard and, you know, all these guys coming through. They put the time in the effort and go, though, guys, it's a full time job for these guys now. And, and, you know, they get to the NHL sooner than later and start cash in big checks. So, you know, this is a good point in time to have this conversation as, as we're ever going to have, quite frankly, what do you think the future kind of looks like for the, the developmental, I mean, leagues here? There's been a lot of talk about, you know, some coming to an understanding. I think the framework of it is super up in the air, still about the WHL and the NCAA. But we see this all the time where, you know, a guy like Easton Cowan, like, I love that he's going to go and play in the OHL. I love that that league exists, and then it still has these players. But he would be better off, I think. The Leafs probably think he'd be better off if he could go play games in the American league. And if he was a kid signed out of college, that's exactly what he would be doing. Do you think we kind of have a problem, or is there any way you can see that kind of changing in the near future, because I can't help but think it every time I see a, you know, a top prospect who's not like one one guy that's just going to walk into the NHL. I think they, and you're going to see it this year with Minton that he's going to benefit from getting games at the AHL. What do you think is the kind of right solution, or can you see a change happening any time soon there? Well, thanks for that question. We got to throw a couple of stakes in the box of beer, you know, but it's no problem. Yeah, I was going to say, like, don't threaten me with a good time. Yeah. Yeah. It's convoluted. There's a lot of layers, but I'm going to say this, it absolutely needs to be changes have to be made. You brought up the Eastern Cowan example. We went through it when I was in Florida with Owen Tippett. Like, Owen Tippett started the year in Florida. We had to send him back to Major Junior, Mississauga. He ends up in Saginaw, Brian McCabe, our director of player development. You know, he's on him, and he's on, and he's on him to motivate him to get him to play. He's too good for the level. And that's what's going to happen this year in London with Eastern Cowan. Fraser Minton absolutely needs American Hockey League games. Eastern Cowan absolutely needs American Hockey League games. I wish it could happen this year. This model that we're working within, the structure of everything that's going on around the world needs to be brought closer together. Because if you draft a European player, we got a four-year window on him, and he could be playing pro over there. So you know, he could draft somebody playing in role-blah, and then he could come over and play in the American Hockey League. He could draft a kid out of the USHL. Technically, he could go to the American Hockey League. But these Major Junior guys in Canada, there's a stop gap there, and we haven't even talked about the CHL guys who could go to the NCAA in the future if that comes to fruition. So a lot of moving parts. We've got to play it out. I know why they do it in Canada. It's the economics. It's the bottom line. It's a business. And people like, listen, the Londonites are going to sell on every Friday night in London, no matter what. The Eastern Cowan is another layer to the excitement for the Londonite franchise. I get that. But it's not the best solution for, I don't think, the athlete or the NHL franchise. I think that we have to, when you're good enough, when you're qualified to be a pro, whether it be in the American League or the NHL, I think it hurts the kids to go to the NHL right away. I think they should be groomed in the American Hockey League. And when they're ready, let's make that decision. Let's move it along. Kind of another layer of all this is, and, you know, I think the kind of poster child for this right now is cutter Goche until somebody else does this, and they will, is the NCAA kids, it feels like, and maybe I'm off base. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But it just feels like they have so much more power. I mean, it seems like from the outside, it looks like Goche thought he was going to get to burn the year with the Flyers. They said, no, that's not happening. Why would we do that right now, given the, given the state of our team, and that led to the kind of rift between him and Breair, now he's on the ducks, what do you make of that aspect of it all? That if you're a college kid, you can kind of, it seems as though you hold so many more cards as opposed to, you know, a CHL kid, my understanding, and again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, is you don't want to sign good, go back in the draft and have at it. Yeah, I don't like it. Honestly, I mean, you know, the record is another example. The one to pick Jeff. I don't know the whole story about what happened with the record, but I can tell you this, if you're a first place team in the spring, and player A's been blocking shots with his face for the last two months, we get your kid, you're, you're team in the playoffs and the home ice advantage and all the rest of it, like, if I'm the coach, I'm going to walk up to that guy and say, listen, I know you've been logging nine hard minutes a night and you've been doing a fantastic job in your role, but we have this college prospect who really wants to play games right now. So you've got to go sit and watch. What is, what message of that son of your team, what message? It's terrible. And I don't want my prospects to be, you know, I don't want that view from my prospects. Anyways, everything should be earned. It's not a give it to me type of leg league. It's not like, you know, hey, I'm here, you know, I'm ready to cash tracks. It's an actual hockey. That's not how it works. So you're absolutely 100% correct. The college players have more leverage right now than any prospect pool in the entire world. Maybe I was, you know, Russia would be an anomaly because of, you know, geopolitical and a whole bunch of different things, but I've already whole books. I've already had to solve two tough issues. I won't ask you to solve our problem with Russia this morning as well. Okay. Good. I'm glad. But, but I listen, I got to bur up my, you know what, when it comes to these college kids who who just think they can step right on a roster, I think when you're ready, you're ready. You should earn it and nothing should be given. And if that's your attitude, then I got a real problem with that. Okay. So now we're agreed. Just let me throw that in there where, where does a potential NCAA and CHL merger help kind of bridge that gap for guys that are, you know, maybe too good to play in the OHL, but it would be, you know, cause they can't go to the AHL. That's a problem. Like, do you think that kind of bridges the gap at least a little bit in that development and does that make players better coming out of the, you know, the CHL and moving to the NCAA potentially because they're not quite good enough to get to the NHL, but this is the next step because they're going to be playing against better players. And frankly, they're going to be playing against men. Yeah. No, it's not going to make any difference for the players like Easton Cowell. What will happen is that some players who spike later on in their careers say, say you're a third year junior or maybe you're a 20 year old junior and you're just starting to really kind of find your game. Get to another level. And let's be honest, some of these kids, you know, some of them are men early. Some of them take longer. I mean, that's just the reality of the way it is. So it's going to be, it's going to benefit those guys that took a little bit longer of their development curve to have the opportunity to go sell through the border and play. But make no mistake, the Easton Cowellans and these other scenarios, they're not going to play at Michigan for a year just because it might be a little bit of a different type of competition. That problem there was the Easton Cowell and the American Hockey League example, that's going to have to be solved a different way. The US NCAA model will not solve that. And I'm going to be fascinated to see how nil and we could go on forever. How is a nil is going to start to affect this too? Like if you're, if you're a highly touted NHL draft pick and you're on the clock, you haven't signed with your NHL team yet, but let's just say that Easton Cowell will play at Michigan. Is he going to qualify for a nil for a year? Is the kid going to bank $500,000 from a, from a booster? You know, there's all kinds of moving parts. Yeah, there's one host at the station that would say, oh, he's already grabbing that from the London Knights, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that that wouldn't be me. Boobs. I love getting on. Thanks so much. I know you're fresh off the flight, but I like it. I think you're like a little, little punchy. So we, we really enjoyed it this morning. Yeah, I'm punchy. I'm always punching with you guys. It's great to talk to you. I'm glad I could, I could make it, enjoy the summer, I'm available whenever you need me. Okay. You'll be, you'll be regretting that comment in about two weeks time, but thanks so much. Jason Bukla. Of course, founder of the pro hockey group, check out his work on sports at.ca. That's conversation I've been dying to have for, for a while. I honestly feel like I should bring Bukla here for an hour, because I think it is the thing that I keep coming back to. I cannot think of any other sport in the world. Obviously with baseball, it's different. If you draft a kid out of high school and then he goes back, he's got, and he doesn't want to sign. He's back in college for three years, but the rules are the same for everybody. There's the international prospects and that is a very different system. But with hockey, it is just, I mean, again, record, McGrodery, he's living it right now. Cutter Goce didn't like that he didn't get to burn a year off his ELC and get closer to his second contract, which obviously is going to pay him more. And he forced the fliers hand into a trade. I like the idea of players having more autonomy. I loathe the idea of only a select sub-sector of those players having the autonomy. And then you throw in the teams can't even develop them. They're players the way they would like. I don't know what the right answer is because I don't want to see the OHL and the Canadian hockey league crater. A big part of it is that people in medicine hack and go watch Gavin McKenna for the next two years and be super excited about it. And I think that's wonderful. And I don't want to lose that, but man, it just, it doesn't feel like it's a sustainable thing for this to continue either. No. I'm glad you mentioned the college thing because college players are more volatile than Russian players. It feels like right now. Totally. Um, we just had, you know, everybody was worried about Matt Vay, Mitch Kove, you know, getting to Philadelphia. He's here three years, man. He's here already. And I think we're going to see more and more of that happen a lot quicker. And the college, the college players are going to be the ones that are, are, you know, potentially the issue. I know somebody's there going, oh, those darn Americans. But that that's where Canadians down there as well. Yeah, exactly. So that's where I think you could run into problems, but yes, there, there has to be some sort of a, but even if it's like, you know, one NA, one NHL team gets to use, you know, one spot on a, on an 18 year old or whatever, 19 year old in the HL. I think there is a way to do it, whether they do it or not is, is an entirely different conversation. Yeah, it'll be, it'll be fascinating. I don't think it's anything that gets ironed out, but I think they're, they're starting to work on the kinks. And that's, that's important. They're a really, really fun show today. Again, Canadian men and women will be at it tomorrow in the four by 100 meter relay. We'll have another big day of Olympics and the J's back at it tonight. You can watch that on Sportsnet, listen on Sportsnet 5.9 to the fan, which is where you've been listening to the fan morning show. Good morning. Good morning. [MUSIC]
