Hello and welcome to the top floor. The podcast where Charlotte area CEO is good to tell their leadership journey. My name is Jeff Cass. I'm an executive coach and the leader of a peer advisory group for CEOs and business leaders here in Charlotte and I'll be your host today. So I'm happy to have Teresa Vieira from Modern Legal with us today. Teresa, welcome to the show. Hey Jeff, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, it's good to have you. You are the first law firm that I've had on the show, so this will be interesting. And you and I have talked to Fairmount because I know a little bit about your background, but let's just start with that. Tell us what you do and how you arrived at leading Modern Legal. Sure, so I am a family law attorney and I actually was a child of a pretty rough, domestic violence situation, child abuse situation and divorce when I was a child. So by the age of 12, I decided that I wanted to help families similar to how my mom's attorney had helped my mom and myself and my brother. And so yeah, at the age of 12, I decided to take the very, very long road education-wise, meaning I decided to go to college but not stop there, also go to law school. I ended up going to Chapel Hill for law school. You would see Chapel Hill School of Law, Yay Tar Heels. And after graduating law school, I moved to the Charlotte area and yeah, I've been practicing family law ever since. When the pandemic hit, it was interesting. The judicial system, as well as a lot of people, had to figure out a lot of changes, a lot of pivots, if you will. And I did recognize one thing in the legal industry, specifically practicing family law, is that the utilization of technology is underutilized. And I would argue is then not serving the best needs of our family law clients and our community. So I really wanted to found a law firm that was innovative, used all the technological advances, but also maintained that very personal connection to our community and clients. Because at the end of the day, everything comes back to the family. And when it comes to the family and their legal issues, colliding, say, in a courtroom or an arbitration or a mediation, my modern legal team wants to be there. We want to be there to help our clients do that process. Okay. Okay. Boy, there's a lot there. But first, I want to go back to one thing you said. So did you say you decided at the age of 12 to become a lawyer? Is that what you said? Age of 12. Yep. Oh my. So you knew right away. And was it the influence of that attorney that you worked with your family? Was that it? Yeah, it was the influence of the attorney for sure. I would add to that it was also my personal observations at such a young age of what the legal system is doing wrong and how I definitely found an inspiration of, okay, I may not know how to make it better, but I want to try. And that's what I feel like my life's work should be is trying to change this judicial legal law enforcement system better for children that were in similar situations to myself. Okay. Okay. So as you look back on your career now, do you think you're starting to make an influence? I definitely think so. I hope so. It's been a long run already. I've been practicing for over a decade and founded a law firm and put all the work into that. I do think I have spread awareness about domestic violence and child abuse. So to start there, I think my personal story has made an influence, hopefully a positive influence for the better to anyone listening about my story and then also watching my trajectory because a lot of victims of violence unfortunately stay swept up in the cycle of violence and whether that be domestic violence, child abuse, human trafficking, elder abuse, etc. It's very hard to break out of the cycle. So first and foremost, I want to exhibit my story as a story of to anyone out there of first off, you're not alone in that it's possible. It's possible to break that cycle and then go one step further that we have agency over our lives and can decide what can be changed. I know we'll get to this in a moment, but I have done some projects with my law firm that other lawyers were like, oh, I never would have thought to do that. And I'm like, exactly. You wouldn't have thought about that. I did. We're going to make this happen because I think it can benefit our community and really change the conversation as to how families interact with the judicial system. Yeah, I mean, it feels like you're uniquely qualified and definitely can bring some experience to maybe the discussion with your clients, you know, that would be very helpful and a connection that I think others may not quite have. Is that true? Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, especially whenever I get a client that is in a pretty severe domestic violence situation, it'll be like the first consultation and at times I'll be finishing their sentences for them and they'll be like, well, how are you doing that? And I'm like, it's, it's, it's more systematized than people think. Abusers act very similar across the board. And I'm not saying any two stories or situations are exactly the same, but the same habits, the same mannerisms come up. And so when people say, oh, do you have experience with XYZ, I say not only do I have experience, but yes, I can finish your sentences for you. Okay, okay. Well, the purpose is great is what I would say. It's very clear to me. And I think that's helpful. But you said so much there. I want to go back to a few other things too. Okay, so first talk about the other purpose is just technology. You said you wanted to bring more technology. And you and I talked a little bit about the courts, but maybe talk in general kind of what you're doing and then what you see as things you'd like to change or, you know, you'd like to see of all maybe over time with the courts, because I imagine that change is probably a little slow. Oh, it's very slow. So let me identify a little bit of a context for all of the listeners before the pandemic. And yes, after, you know, 2010, I'll say, I would go to certain attorney's offices. And yes, they were attorney offices that didn't even have internet or they didn't use email, or they didn't even accept credit card payments. And you know, some people laugh at that, oh, that must not have been common. And I would urge listeners to realize it was actually relatively common. The concept of having a virtual consultation was foreign to many attorneys. Why? Because they want every, they want the more traditional way, especially because there are certain ethical requirements lawyers are bound by. So for example, attorney client privilege, there, there was the concern, oh, well, they're just going to record the virtual meeting. Well, there's software for that, right? You can prevent any recording if you don't want a virtual meeting recorded. Some attorneys just like the in person contact, which is beneficial if most of your clients are in a 25 mile radius. However, I have clients and literally I have clients around the world. So I'm doing a disservice to say my client in Europe or in the Middle East, if I'm insisting that they have to come to my office to meet with me, right? Or even if it's not as far, but let's say they're in Raleigh, and then we're here in Charlotte. And so, you know, if we're honestly trying to prioritize the needs of our clients, then we as a legal system have to be uncomfortable with certain things such that we can better serve our clients. So when the pandemic hit and a lot of changes needed to happen, one of the, the keys to making sure our judicial system didn't just utterly go into chaos was the adoption of virtual court hearings, virtual meetings, and virtual mediations. And there are regulations here in North Carolina, through the dispute resolution commission that regulates mediators. And so in family law, specifically, there are there are a lot of requirements to first go to mediation before you go into a courtroom to save resolve, child custody, or property disputes. And so there was a huge shift where we could do virtual mediations. There was laws and rules around that, of course, like don't record it. But let's adopt that. Let's make sure we're doing these virtual court hearings as well. How do we present evidence or, you know, perform testimony and things like that. So all these questions came up. So I did work with the Mecklenburg County bar here to adopt some changes for the family court to make sure our system kept running. And there was a true court closure, except for emergency matters. And we wanted to make sure our families of our community were not negatively impacted because they were already being negatively impacted by a global pandemic. And so my firm specifically, you know, we made sure we got the technology. We made sure we had, you know, web cameras. Let's start there. You can't have a virtual meeting. Like you and I cannot be having this meeting with us as virtual camera, for example, and go one step further, making sure our clients had access to computers, had access to internet, had the ability to organize their documents and get them to us in a digital manner, not just printing out or going to the bank, getting all the bank statements and dropping a box off on our front step. And so a lot of these changes were incorporated. And I come from a tech background. So for me, I was like, I can systematize this. I can create processes. We can make this more efficient. And what what then happens is we can then provide legal services in a much more efficient manner. So that reduces the legal fees that clients incur because simply put we're not spending as much time in the car or, you know, going through physical piles of documents. And so that turns out to be a financial in time benefit for both the attorneys and the clients, which then can pass down and have ripple effects so that we can serve more people. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So you were still at another law firm at that time on the pandemic hit. I was, I was. And so I made the decision. I learned, so I worked at two law firms previous to opening in my own law firm. And I learned a lot of good things, a lot of impressive ways to run a law firm, but also I identified a lot of areas of improvement, for example, having web cameras. Well, I mean, at that time, I mean, thinking back to a business I was in, we didn't use video calls. You know, I tell you, it was very interesting and early in the pandemic. I mean, you know, we had to make sure everybody was working remotely and they had video cameras and, you know, we had a lot of people that didn't want to be on camera. I mean, you remember all of that. So you, you, you were part of kind of that transition here in Charlotte, you know, to help the courts kind of become more, I guess, video, I don't know, friendly. Yeah, video friendly. And I'll say North Carolina is also adopting an e-court system, which, and finally, which I think came after the realization that we are all going to shift it to these technological changes. And, and it's easier, right? I can file a complaint here in my office now. I don't have to send someone to physically file it at the courthouse. But to your comment, not everyone's happy about it. So I do have a lot of lawyers and a lot of judges specifically who are still, I don't want to say frustrated, but it is a steep learning curve, especially when especially our judicial system was functioning with attorneys without even internet. Yeah. Right. And I grew up with internet. So it was, it was definitely a contention there. Change is hard. I think change is hard in a lot of industries, you know, and maybe it's a little bit harder. Maybe the roots are a little stronger with tradition and stuff like that in law. And you know, it's probably part of what you're kind of facing. But you had said you have technology background. So you law was a calling for you. But technology sounds like it was just as much. Can you talk about that? Sure. I joke with a colleague of mine. He's actually a techie too. We joke that we would have been the founders of Amazon had we not gone to law school, but that's neither here nor there. But I, so I was raised in a household where one of my parents was a computer programmer in the 80s. So I was a child on one of those original laptops that weighed 20 pounds. And that's not that's not an exaggeration. Those things were heavy. I built my first website at the age of 10. I did a lot of programming and a lot of how should I say this? Organization with files that then came through to increase regulation on the digital platform. So yes, I was a user of Netscape. I was a user of some of those early day technology technological advances. I was actually a Gmail user Google Gmail user back when it was beta version and you had to be invited by someone to use it because they wanted to keep it within a certain technology network before they released it for the public. And so I just growing up, I was always like, oh, what can we do with computers? What can we do with technology? What else can we do? That fascinates me. I was a gamer as a child. I still play video games. I husband and I bond over that. And so just using that technology, from the olden days of capture the flag on some MS DOS program through playing these multiplayer games that transcend boundaries worldwide. And of course, I mean, I'm sure we've all heard of Facebook and Instagram and social media platforms that have literally changed the face of connecting people, connecting individuals. Talk about the deterioration of borders between nations when people can literally text someone in the middle of a revolution in, you know, Africa or the Middle East and say, what's going on there? And they can take a picture and send it back immediately. Like, it's fascinating. And to recognize all those changes. I mean, if we want to keep up, then we have to keep up. We have to roll with the punches, if you will. Well, it sounds like pushing the boundaries is more kind of where you're at. Is that where I read between the lines? Is that kind of what you do? Love that. Well, in addition to being a techie, I am a litigator at heart. And I say that in the sense of I love discussing legal theories, the application of these broad laws to specific situations. I mean, it's funny, some of the team members in my office, they'll just walk away when I'm nerding out with another attorney saying, Oh, can you do that? But can you do that? I don't know if that's legal. I don't think that should be constitutional or, you know, etc. And I think it's because there was always the question in my mind with anything. But why not? Like, why not? Why can't we do things virtually? Why can't we adopt an e-filing system? Why can't we serve clients? And although my office is here in Charlotte, serve a client in a county in North Carolina that barely has internet access. And there's no attorney that only does family law in their county, which is a reality in this day. So why can't we push the buck to make our community better? And I think that's that's progress right there. That's how that's how we grow. That's how we've, you know, now we all have smartphones. We literally walk around with computers in our pockets nowadays. That wouldn't have happened unless someone said, Hey, why not? Why can't we? Well, virtual files, I mean, all of those things, I mean, you can mention, I mean, that is very, you know, commonplace today. I mean, you know, and that Google Drive, you know, you name 100 of them that are, you know, cloud, you know, places we can put our files. But but that mindset is interesting. And is that maybe, maybe I'm jumping ahead here a little bit, but it feels to me like that might have led you to say, okay, I'm going to start my own firm now, right? I'm not going to be an attorney only, right? I want to do some of these things that I see differently. So talk about that, if you would talk about that kind of, you know, that the decision to do it. And then maybe a little bit as you look back on it, how was that decision? I look back and I'm like, what were you thinking, granted, I have a lot of those stories in my life. So like, for example, I randomly moved to the to Egypt for three months. My mom didn't even know I was going into like two days prior. And I just boarded a plane and I was like, yeah, I'm just moving. I mean, there was a program that I was going to to attend there. But I, you know, arrived in Egypt early and stayed later. And I was a single young female. And people are like, well, why'd you do that? And I was like, well, why not? Why not try? I had studied the region in my undergraduate study. So I thought that was a fascinating opportunity. Jump ahead to to working at previous previous family law firms and then deciding to go out on my own. For me, it was why did like I asked myself, why did I go to law school to begin with? Why do I even want to help people? Why do I want to help families? Why do I want to help children? And some of it came back to certain core values that I live by that were not always matching the environment that I was working in at other law firms. And that's not to say those other law firms didn't have good values. It's more to say, at the end of the day, I would be working under the values of someone else versus my own. And I think my values and my thought process have a gift that hasn't been seen yet. So why not give of that? And along the way, I have had people jump on the same ship and they're like, yes, I can I can relate to what you want to do. I can relate to the message that you want to spread. And when I was a child and my mom barely had any money and we didn't know where to start, I personally felt the the frustration of, you know, being without without having not only the financial means, but more importantly, the educational means to know what to do. Now we fortunately had amazing law enforcement officers that responded to our calls. I mean, I still admire them to this day. We had an amazing nonprofit organization called Interactive Wake that helped us in the capacity that they could. And then my mom found an attorney that even though my mom had limited financial means was willing to work with her. So why can't I then pay it forward? And so that was the thought process going into creating a law firm, go one step further, a pandemic had hit. So I wasn't traveling. I wasn't doing much else. I had a dog. I wasn't married yet. So I was like, ah, let's do it. And I was like, worst case scenario ended up on my brother's couch. But here we are with four attorneys slated to be five before the end of the year. And we're continuing to grow both in terms of the clients we serve, but also our regional and hopefully national impact as the dream just continues to get bigger. Well, that's cool. I mean, it's certainly successful so far. I mean, as you've done well, it feels like the future looks good. Now, when you were starting as well, some of those things that you wanted to change and implement and technology and things like that, have you been able to do many of those things with your firm? Yeah, we have some things. Some ideas have flopped, of course, which I was like, huh, I wonder why there wasn't more of an uptick on that idea. Other ideas have taken off. So for example, we set up a digital system for clients to send us their documents like a drive folder that's shared that has taken off. Because clients like the ease of being able to download things on their own laptop and just easily get it to us in real time. So they don't even have to drop off a USB stick. It's all real time. We utilize tablets. So I will bring physical documents to a courtroom. But I remember I was drafting a consent order that I didn't predict was going to happen. And I was in court and I remember the judge turning to me, oh, Ms. Vier, do you need a copy of the pleading? And I pulled up my smartphone. I'm like, no, judge, I'm good. I got the court file right here. And she just like shaped her head at me because she's like, of course, you are with all your tech. So having that ease of access on different devices, secure. But but still ease of access for the attorneys and the team. And then going one step further, being there for our clients, no matter what. So, you know, I had I had a client one time where child was out of the state and she was able to get in contact with me through certain means that we set up for her specific for her case specifically. And we were to bring in we were able to bring in assistance from family members because she was not in that state. We were able to get family members involved law enforcement, if necessary involved, all at the click of buttons to make sure that the child was safe when she was out of out of the state. Okay, okay. Yeah, I mean, I think to me as I think about what you were saying earlier, efficiency, you know, new ideas, that's all important in business. So that's a natural for you as a business leader. Now talk about those things that weren't so natural, right? Because you're coming from law and you have seen maybe some of the maybe some of the makings of someone that's natural for business, but there must have been some things that weren't so natural. Oh, of course. Oh, I don't even know where to start there. Office space, office space. I had always been in offices that were, you know, provided to me and about by established law firms. And I remember luckily I had a friend who had an open office space. However, it was just one room. So me and my paralegal are working in this one room. We're both loud. So if I'm on a phone call with a client, my paralegal cannot be on the phone with a client in saying vice versa. We're getting calls, we're getting, you know, and we don't want to miss the call. So I'm like, okay, well, I'll I'll work from a cafe because I'm not doing anything on the phone just right now. But on or I'm working from home or, you know, whatever it may be. So there's a lot of a lot of realization. Okay, we need separate, we need walled spaces, right, to to prevent sound from traveling. So we rent in more space. File, where are we putting the physical file? So although we do a lot of things digitally, I would say we are as paperless as law firm can get in our industry. There's still paper. Where do you put it if you're in one room? That's a great question. Yes, exactly. Getting those calls answered, routing the voicemails, luckily, like email and letters and everything. We already had a process from our previous firms. But then go further into the business itself. Payroll. You know, unemployment taxes, taxes in general, employee benefits. I started at a law firm that had like no benefits when I started. And here I am interviewing legal assistants who expect all the insurances. And I'm like, whoa, in my short time of being an attorney, again, over a decade. But I was like, wow, talk about expectations. Mecklenburg County personal property taxes, even though it's for the business, like, okay, I didn't even know that was a thing. And it's all these small things. Also law firms, we have more regulations than your average business. So we're not just, for example, my corporation is not just in an LLC, but it's a professional P LLC. And so there's regulations that I have to abide by as instituted by the North Carolina State bar in addition to everything with the Secretary of State. And when a pandemic is happening and no one knows what's going on, you get pretty personal with those people you're trying to start a law firm with, and get all the eyes dotted and then the T's crossed. But no, it's been an extreme learning curve. Go one step further, though, being able to rely on individuals in my network. So I immediately hired an accountant, a CPA, because I know I can't do taxes on my own. I'm bringing on a payroll service, because deducting taxes from individual pay was like over my head. Yeah, just being able to identify the industries that I needed to bring in to help me flourish with this business. Well, you had made a comment to me, I don't know, one of the last times we talked about your network and you spent really 10 years growing your network, right? I mean, and that's sounds like that's paid off and four years ago and continuing, you know, but maybe talk about that, because that was one thing that's more natural for you that may not be natural for all business leaders. I like how you say natural, it was not natural initially. So lawyers, I'll put us on one group for just a moment, but we tend to be introverts. Think about law school, you are, your grade is competing against to the person sitting next to you. It's very focused, your head is in the books 24/7. The only socializing you do is when they happen to have free food in the rotunda. It's a very individualized, secluded type of activity to go to law school, and it's three years, so that's after college. So even to survive law school, you tend to be not the most, you're not, how should I say, molded to be the most social person. I have a feeling, I don't have my MBA, but I have a feeling business school is a little different in that regard. We're also not taught how to run a business or to network or anything like that. However, for me, when I was hired by my first law firm, I did have wonderful mentors that basically said, you know, people will only ask for your help if they know they need your help. And so yes, it's kind of evident, all right, you're going through a divorce, you can't agree to a divorce, you need an order, you're going to get that clientele. But what about the people who have children with a parent that they no longer live with, like they're not in a relationship with, or how about individuals who are getting married, and they have a lot of assets coming into the to the marriage to the marital relationship. And so I was like, okay, well, I took it upon myself as okay, I'm going to educate people. I love the spreading of education. That's something I'm definitely passionate about. And so I started going to different networking groups. And I have tried a lot of the big ones in the area, whether that's B&I, EAC, CRG, there's so many acronyms out there, area chambers, right, like the list goes on. And I was like, well, I want to go out to educate. And I soon realized it wasn't only the fact that I could educate and provide needed information, legal education specifically to community members, but personal relationships formed. So suddenly people were like, I like you, like, I want to send you business just because you're a good person. And I know you'll take care of anyone I send your way. And I was like, Oh, there's something to this. Okay, I'm a likable person. I didn't know. I was in the law books in the library and it's a included room for three years. And go one step further. I realized, look, this, the law is my lane. I'm not a good financial advisor. I don't know all the retirement account products out there. I don't know all the insurance products out there. I don't know how to sell a house. I don't know how to do mortgages and all the different mortgages out there. And so I soon realized I'm like, okay, well, if I'm truly going to help my clients, my clients who are letting me into their family by way of their family situation, then I want to develop a network. I want to develop a resource book, if you will, is that if someone calls me and they need a therapist, I got a therapist. If they need a realtor, I got a real So unfortunately, a lot of my domestic violence victims are female. They don't want to work with males. So especially even though this city of Charlotte has a lot of financial advisors, it's kind of hard to find a good female one. So that was one of my goals. Let me find a female financial advisor to connect my domestic violence survivors to those resources. And then suddenly, it just turned into this growth of a network where business was going out, business was coming in and with that network that I started fresh out of law school, I had the trust in my community that I could open up a law firm and people would be calling our number. Okay. So I'm going to challenge something you said because you feel like a social person to me. The time that I've spent with you, right? So maybe law school may have set you back a little bit, but were you social prior? Because you must have had some, you know, I don't know, you must have been kind of leaning that way a little bit. Otherwise, you wouldn't be the way you are today. I joke about this because my, I think my husband thinks the same thing. And I'm scratching my head because it's kind of tricky to explain this. I'll say it this way. When I retire, I will probably go to a cabin where I only know the local local pizza guy, the store attendant, and I'll be happy. Like, I don't need to know a lot of people to be happy. I need to have my trusted group. But with that stated, I, I love meeting people that also have a passion to give. And I think for me, it's less of the social aspect and more of the, oh my goodness, I'm going to learn something from them. So if I can learn something from them and grow my knowledge base, this is not not only a mutually beneficial relationship, but it helps me grow as a person. And I was very introverted in the sense of I do get more, like when I'm in social settings, my energy goes down very quickly. I do not gain energy from social situations. I gain energy from being alone, reading a book, watching a Netflix documentary, or playing video games, or just hanging out with my husband, one person. On the flip side, when I am out, and I have my, you know, I slept well the night before, I have my energy built up, maybe even add a cup of coffee to the situation. When I'm out, I want to meet people. I want to learn more about the resources out there. There are so many talented people, I say in this world, but specifically in Charlotte, and I'm like, I want to meet everyone and just see how I can make further connections, because with that, you know, you have more community connections, you have more of a network, you have a stronger network. Personally, I think that's the path to lessening some of these systemic problems, whether it's the systemic problems that we have with our judicial system, talking about a bigger system, or these systemic problems of the rate of divorce, the rate of domestic violence, the rate of child abuse, because if people are more comfortable to talk about things, because they trust each other more, yeah, they can all do something, and it's less likely to happen. I'll bring in the mental health piece here, is that if you feel more comfortable, if you have a safer emotional environment, and I'm not just talking in your workplace or in your school or at home, but in your greater community, then you have, I mean, arguably, this is totally a hypothesis here, but I would argue have a healthier environment such that you don't see teen suicide, you don't see as many adult suicides, you don't see as many mental health problems for people on anxiety meds. This goes on from there. Okay, well, that's a good point, and speaking of connecting with people, it feels like you have, you definitely have a affinity for that, because I think you told me you kind of have a group of folks you get together with regularly, maybe they were part of your network at some point, but maybe talk about that, talk about how it came together and what the purpose is. Sure, so to have a few like networking groups, but there's also more so like brainstorming groups or think tanks, if you will, and when I founded my law firm, I know a lot of business owners, a lot of impressive people here in my community, and it's not just family law, but business owners, like I have a friend who owns a plumbing company, I have a friend who is an owner of a painting company, I have financial advisors, therapists, etc. And I know a number of male law firm owners, fascinating people, but I found that some of the problems I wanted to talk with them about, they would glaze over, like their eyes would literally glaze over, and I was like, okay, that's right, you may not have the same approach to certain things, because at the end of the day you just have different factors in that play, different experiences exactly, and so I was like, you know what, I'm going to start a group of family law, female, business owners, early years, that own law firms, and it could be also like a higher up partner, because they have an ownership interest, but small law firms, because small law firms have different challenges than say a big law law firm, trust me, most of the partners at those big law firms are not worrying about payroll, or employee retention, or even taxes, right, but as a benefit, exactly, but a small law firm, yeah, we're worried about all of the above, and so I brought this group together, we've actually expanded to beyond just family law, so it is a female law firm owners and leaders in small law firms, and it's so interesting, because I think this story kind of exemplifies why we exist, but I had her friend, and she messaged me, and she owns her own law firm, and she's like, oh, well, you know, I was wanting Erin, so I didn't come to this meeting, because I was in slacks, I was in like exercise clothes, and oh man, you know, my son, I had to find daycare for him, and yadda yadda yadda, I finally turned to her, I said, hey, half of us are in exercise clothing at 6 p.m. on Tuesday, some of us have to bring our babies to the meeting, that's fine, I know we still have the cultural norm where the female or the mother is more likely to have to care for the child, say it after work, then maybe the husband or the father, that's okay, bring the kid, and she's like, wait, this is a business meeting where kids can go to, and I was like, well, why not? So I'll just bring it back to my earlier question, why not? And one of our last meetings actually loved it, because one of my colleagues, she brought her toddler, and literally, we were just passing the toddler as we were talking about hourly rates of attorneys, and what the market trends are, and it was hilarious, like someone looking in from the outside, you would have been like, oh, that's just a group of moms getting together, and I'm like, no, we're actually law firm owners, so. And you had a productive meeting? Oh, we had a very productive meeting, it was great, it was actually because we had the input of eight different law firm owners of comparing the market in terms of hourly rates, but for newbie attorneys, plus more experienced attorneys, and different industries, because we had a business law attorney there, we had we've had estate planning attorneys there as well, and so different industries have, you know, different markets, so we're carrying them all. See, again, I'm going to challenge the fact that you're social, you know, I think you are more social than you think, but yeah, we'll see how that plays out, and then we'll see if you end up in a small, you know, cabin in the woods when you retire, because I think that it's never goes away, just because. Fair enough, I like it. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the business then, so talk about maybe some of your challenges today, you know, fast forward four years since you started, you know, the startup issues are one thing, you know, you come a long way, you're, I think you said you're going to have five attorneys by the end of the year, and I think almost 10 people total, so that brings a lot of different kind of challenges. What are those challenges today? One challenge, speaking of being a continuous learner, being a business owner, is the challenge of the current work culture. Then what I mean by that is the younger generations, and I feel so old saying that, but the younger generations much more identify with purpose, and with, you know, giving back, then they do necessarily with a dollar sign. On the flip side, they also are coming to a job expecting certain benefits and paying. So it's like the balance of, okay, yes, that's a reasonable, you know, desire to benefit your community, but I have to balance that against my revenue and my bottom line, and what you're actually doing for clients. And so, you know, of course, my attorneys who are standing next to our clients in a courtroom, their pay structure is going to be different than say a legal assistant, or a receptionist, or a projects manager. And so for me, the current balance is how do we divide the responsibilities that are needed to operate in an efficient, but also high quality, manner against the expectations of employees and desire of benefits. I think one thing that solidifies our team is that we do have that united front of values of wanting to educate, empower, and serve our clients versus just trying to get a paycheck. And no offense to any of the attorneys out there that are in the industry just to get a paycheck in there, they're waiting for that $1 number when they're going to stop practicing law power to them. For the people on my team, though, I do feel it's more of a calling. And I joke that I'll retire and then do a lot of my cases pro bono, just because I'll have enough money in the bank, now I can serve those people that have interesting cases, but could not otherwise afford an attorney, especially when you're talking about higher level appellate cases and things like that. Then I also, so that that's one challenge, the other challenge is I worked in my previous two law firms for over eight years. And so I did create a lot of name recognition where clients will call in to talk to me. And well, I am an attorney as well as a business owner. So as you can imagine, I have limited, at the end of the day, we all, we all have only so many hours in a day. And any client that calls in for me, trust me, I want to talk to you. It's just if I have meetings already booked for the next two weeks, and I know you need services yesterday, then I, we are trying to figure out better ways to route these clients to sitting down with our other team members, knowing that I am touching every case that comes across the desk at this law firm, because I want to make sure we provide as quality of services as possible. But also the expertise is, you know, I've had experiences in different courtrooms throughout the state of North Carolina that say one of my other attorneys has not had, but she has had her own experience as well. So when we come together to brainstorm on a client case, the client's case really is getting the benefit of all of us. But clients don't necessarily see that if they're like, oh, I heard of Teresa's name, what is this modern legal thing? That's just a business, right? So it really is making that transition in terms of a name brand to a business brand. Right, right, yeah, because when you were smaller, you could touch every client, you had to probably, right? And now, right, you had to, right now you have four other attorneys and you're juggling a lot of the management duties, you know, marketing, a podcast, which I want to get to as well. You know, so I imagine that's going to get a lot harder. That may change a little bit and your brand, so to speak, will change. Is that on your mind today? Is that kind of what you're thinking? Yes, yes, definitely. It's making sure my attorneys have the tools and my knowledge base in easy access. So although we're recording this podcast right now, I already see the list of questions for my attorneys piling up. And that's great. I love that. I love being able to be that resource. But yes, I want to grow the business, because, and this is one thing I learned from my business coach, was that I can serve clients. I definitely can. And if I only did attorney work and I didn't have my own business, I could probably serve anywhere from 30 to 60 clients at once, right? That's maybe a case load. Some family law attorneys would be like, oh, Teresa, that's way too many. But, you know, I could serve that number of people. But instead, if I have five attorneys with 40 cases each, I'm serving more people. If we expand that and we bring on more team members or we utilize technology to make things more efficient and to broaden the scope of the geographical region that we're serving, we're not only serving more people, we're serving people that 10 years ago had no hopes of having an attorney that had the level of expertise that we have because we only do family law. And every attorney in my firm only does family law. So that's a unique nugget of wisdom that we can spread on a wider basis by me focusing on the business more so than individual client cases. Yeah, it's no different than a business leader, you know, other industries, right? I mean, so you progress in your career a lot of times from the to the doer, right? You're doing something, whether you're practicing law or something else, you become a manager and then you become manager of managers, you know, and I think your ability to directly interact and juggle kind of that workload, set the tone, you know, set the purpose, which it sounds like you're doing well with your folks, that way you don't have to be in front of every client, right? I think that's maybe what you're coming to that realization that transition is happening now. It feels like to meet with you. Is that right? Yeah, it is. And it's wonderful. Because as we grow our brand awareness as a law firm, my firm and administrator specifically will say, I love it when they call in and they're like, I got referred to modern legal, not to Teresa, right? But modern legal, because that means the brand is now taking over. And at that point, what I love about that is my firm and administrator and then, you know, her support staff, they are able to target in on the story of that client. And then because she knows the attorney so well, she can find a better match for that client. Because yes, a lot of people may think they want me when I'll be the first one to say, I am probably not the best fit. Like Tiffany, one of our attorneys, she is a master's in social work. Trust me, she can be much more therapeutic than I can any day in a week. Some of our clients need that, because we are in this very sensitive area of law. Yeah, okay, interesting. So it sounds like, you know, you're talking about brand, talk a little bit about marketing, because I think I got a sense that you definitely do some of the marketing you have your hand in it. Is that part of building modern legal? Is that kind of what you're doing? And are you the one doing it? Yes, yes, yes. And all of the above, yes. So first off, this is a business. And it's sometimes hard to swallow because, trust me, I wish that we got government stipends. I wish we got donations. I wish we got money from other resources, because attorneys fees can be expensive. And clients have to foot the bill 100% themselves in family law, in most family law cases. They don't have the right to an attorney here in North Carolina. It's not like you get appointed a public defender if it's criminal case. And so with that stated, it's marketing is the tool to help influence our potential clients to help them know, first off, we have the expertise that they need so they can rely upon us. But also, here's all the education that we're just going to give out so that when you actually need us, you know, to contact us. And so I use, I think of marketing as that impetus to not only build brand awareness, but to get the education out there. So marketing, if you will, started for me when I started my networking over, well over a decade ago, but has expanded to the use of technology to better influence that market, that target client. And it's funny because I remember getting an email from Hulu. They were just targeting business owners and they're like, create a commercial, we'll add it to Hulu. And I was sitting there, I'm like, huh, it's the spin off TV commercials, right? And then all those in online streaming service. I was like, who actually purchases the stuff via Hulu commercials, except for prescription drugs? I see a ton of those. I'm sure they're doing fine. But I was like, interesting, like that's one route we could go. But another route we could go is Facebook. Another route we could go is Instagram. Another route we can go is Instagram. And what's fascinating with these social media platforms is most of them are free initially, right? So to create your business profile, most of them are free, if not all of them, to some extent have a free option, even LinkedIn. And so it was saying, okay, we're small business, we want to keep our overhead tight, right? Like keep everything efficient. So what is free? What can we use low cost if it's not free? And get our name out there. And we have just expanded from there. So yes, now we do do paid advertising through Google and different platforms. But it's very strategic because we use the information from say a year or two years ago of what worked, what terminology worked, how can we then replicate that and expand that. And what I like to see, speaking of being a tacky and building my first website at the age of around 10, is that I want to see the website views and the page views increase every month, month after month. Because if we ever have a dip, then I need to find the source. And luckily, we haven't in four years. But if it's not increasing, then then I'll have a marketing issue in my mind, in my mind. Okay, now I see how this connects, you know, for you. And somehow the podcast came in there probably as you were trying to educate, right? And also probably drive a little bit more traffic to your site and those kind of things. So maybe talk about the genesis of that idea and how it will go. Sure. So one thing I learned early on with the social media platforms was that video was the thing. And you've seen it, right? You've seen the reels from the Olympic games that are going on all the way to, you know, TikTok sensations, right? And influencers. And I was like, okay, well, us lawyers love to write. So we have a ton of articles and blogs. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, who reads them other than Google algorithms, right? So I'm like, okay, we're still going to do the blogs, of course, because if someone does read them, we want to make sure the resources out there. But on the flip side, I'm like, okay, let's do videos. So let's take a topic that we wrote a blog about. And let's just do a 45 minute, you know, segment on answering that question. And it could be, you know, what do I bring to a consultation? Why do attorneys charge consultation fees? What is an absolute divorce here in North Carolina? Like small questions that we could ask at least provide some education to your point in a moment ago. Okay. And so I hired a videographer. And it's funny because I am very efficient. We sat down and we set up the studio literally in this one room office that I started my law form out of, moved a lot of chairs, whatever else made them look pretty professional if I say so myself. And then I just had myself as well as the other attorneys and our firm administrator rotate through. I said, okay, you have 10 props, sit down, go through them, you're out. Next, let's go. And we went through about five team members and the videographer, I think he said we produced over 50 videos that day. And he's like, that's the most I've ever produced in one session. And they were short videos, but you know, it's often the case where we have to do retakes and all this, that and the other. And I'm like, no, no retakes, get it right the first time. You're in a courtroom, no gobacks, right? And let's just make it happen. And the first off, the video production from my friend Ben is in his brother is fabulous. So we took those videos about just over 50 of them and just started putting them on our social media platforms. And I got the feedback from my community. These are great love the videos. This is a great podcast. And I'm sitting there like, I don't have a podcast. They're literally just videos that were recorded in one day. So I was like, okay, well, and it wasn't just one person. It was like four or five people who came to me, can't wait to see your next podcast, love the content you're getting out there. And I was like, Oh, I got to get ahead of this. I got to create a podcast. That's when I was like, all right, let me again, utilize my network. I had been in some networking group that a podcast producer had presented at. And I contacted her. And she was she was funny. She's like, Teresa, just so you know, it's two years. And I'm like two years from what she's like two years to the day that I first met you. And she's like, to think two years ago, planted the seed, and now we're making it happen. So as of January 2024, we released legal lounge, the podcast focus on family law education. And you do video and audio? We do. The video was actually a surprise to me. Okay. So if you watch the earlier episodes, I do not have a lot of makeup on. I did not know it was going to be video. And my podcast producer, she's like setting up the cameras in front of these speakers. And I was like, is there video? And she's like, yeah, that was, I was in the paperwork. And I'm like, of course, it's in the paperwork, the one line I forgot to read. And so I was like, okay. And in some of my first guests, it was so funny because they walked in and they're like, it's being recorded. I'm like, surprise to me too. Let's roll with it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, to your point about the takes too, I think the more natural it is, the better, you know, you're going to have those kinds of situations that it's not natural. It can't be a perfect take. And I think the first take is always the best take anyways. I've done that. I've done 10 takes before and I go back and look. And the first one's always the best, you know, so yeah, I was, I was very intuitive of you kind of getting that with your team. So that's cool. So looking back on the podcast, would you say that it's fulfilled what you wanted to do? Or is it fulfilling, you know, on that path? It's definitely fulfilling it on the path. I think it's also spreading the awareness of the podcast. Because part of the inspiration for the content of the podcast was my frustration of seeing these family law questions being asked on social media platforms, like different Facebook groups or, you know, in different pages. And my concern was less about the person asking the question. I'm all about someone trying to utilize the resources that they have available, especially if they have limited financial resources. And honestly, my bigger concern was the answers were the answers, because some of the answers I'm sitting here like my husband knows when I'm like looking at this stuff, because I just get so frustrated. I was like, I was like, a prenup is not the same thing as a post note. I can't believe this is on there. I can't delete it. I can't report them. That's bad advice. That's bad education. And I'm sitting here, you know, and he's just watching trying to watch something on Netflix while we eat dinner. And so for me, it was like, okay, well, I'm not going to start ranting and raving and be the crazy lunatic on a Facebook group chat or messaging board. But rather, how am I going to get ahead of it? I'm going to go ahead and produce a podcast, because I really want the information to go out there to spread. I would love this to go viral, because the amount of missed truths and misunderstandings in family I think is one of the most misunderstood concepts that people talk about a lot. And I get it. People should be talking about their children should be talking about, hey, can I get child support? What's going to happen to my finances if I get divorced? Yes, people should be talking about it. But so much bad information is out there. Yeah, I mean, I'll tell one more story. This is I think a funny one. I was actually at a gathering of women. I'll say it that way. It was a fun little party. I was new to the group. No one really knew me. And someone made the comment of, Oh, because I got, I actually eloped in Jamaica. And so there were laws that we had to buy by to make sure the marriage was legal on Jamaica. And so she asked me, she's like, well, how are you going to make the marriage legal in North Carolina? And I, you know, she doesn't know I'm a family law attorney at this point, by the way. And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, well, I've heard it's illegal unless you legalize it in North Carolina. I was like, oh, okay, tell me more. Like, I don't, I don't know where this concept is coming from. And she she goes into the process. And finally, I'm like, yeah, that's that's not correct. And she's like, well, I've heard. And I was like, I'll pause you right there. I'm a family law attorney. I've been practicing family law for over a decade. I know what's legal here in North Carolina in terms of marriages, etc. I litigate those very issues. If there is a question of whether or not marriage is legal. And just so you know, the information that you have is entirely incorrect. But don't worry, my marriage from Jamaica is legal. So good example, funny example. Okay, I got it. Yeah. Well, good. I mean, you just started it. So you'll continue to kind of, you know, help correct some of those truths and get your name out there. That's great. Now I want to shift gears a little bit because we got to watch our time a little. Sure. Yeah. So let's talk about management a little bit. Okay. So that's been a bit of a change for you as well, managing people. But as you look, you know, maybe as the leader and founder of this law firm, what would you say to people that were going to start a business? Because they'd have a lot of the same issues whether it was a law firm or not, right? What would you say to that? What advice would you give people? I would say my biggest piece of advice is know what you're good at. And then know when you need to find the assistance or the professional assistance when needed. I love to say that I am a learner. I will, I will read tax code. I will read all the employment laws. I will draft employment agreements myself. But once I know I am no longer in my lane, I need to find the right professional or the right resource to help me. A great example is taxes and payroll, because I was not about to sit there and, you know, hand a check to an employee for a thousand dollars, but oh wait, deduct a certain amount for Mecklenburg taxes and, you know, state and federal taxes and all that stuff. And yes, there are payroll services that are very affordable that can take that whole problem off your plate when it came to filing taxes. So I have a law firm. Yes, that's my main business. I teach dance on the side. I also have a property holding company, and then I pay myself. So I have actually three businesses I'm running, as well as getting a W2 from my business. So when it came to the tax side, I was like, I could read the tax code all day every day. It looks like gibberish, because I don't know how it applies to my situation. So as a business owner, it really is bringing in the people you know can provide the expertise you need, because it's not in your lane. But let me expand that, because I think taxes a lot of people are like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'll get an accountant, because they're opening a business, or I'll get a payroll service. But what about the other lanes that we don't even think about? One of the lanes I started first actually was building a website. I don't think a lot of attorneys specifically, and maybe not a lot of business owners know this, but your website is like your storefront back when we had a lot more malls and a lot more strip malls. That's your storefront. If you don't have a storefront, you don't have a store in my opinion. And from a digital technology being adopted every day in this world, you got to have a storefront. Even if more people go to your Facebook page than your website, that's fine. But you have to have a storefront. So I invested in a website developer. That was actually my first check that I cut was someone to, we didn't we didn't launch the website for two, three months, but I made sure that website looked pristine before I even announced that I had my own business. That was really important. And then also knowing the intricacies of how to build your business. So going back to what I commented on earlier as a law firm, I'm not only regulated by the Secretary of State, I also have this other regulatory agency, the state are that I have to go through. So you got you got to know all the pieces of the puzzle. And it does take a lot of research before you say, Hey, I'm open. So before all that, like make sure you still have a good revenue stream or maybe still have your former job before you go and embark on learning all those new tools. Yeah, because all those things take time, right? And while you're doing them, you still need to make money. So you have to spend your time on things that make money, right? And continue to allow you to kind of get going and not spend time on some of these other things that maybe somebody else can do a lot faster and a lot more efficient, right? Is that exactly? Yep, exactly. And I would say my last, my last little tidbit is don't expect to make money your first number of months. And what I mean by make money, yes, I was living off savings and paying team members off savings for a little while. Totally worth the investment, right? But you got to be willing to swallow that pill. Yeah, okay. Would you say build your network first before you launch or would you say, you know, do it as you as you're building? I would prefer the former. So I luckily had built my network. I think there is having a good network is invaluable, not only for clients and customers to find your business through word of mouth and referral, but I would say more importantly, so that you have these resources available, just a call or an email away. Like the only reason I had a website developer and email away was because I had met him seven years prior. The only reason I had an accountant that I know, first off knew me, but I knew would, you know, go through each line item on a tax return and make sure it was correct was because I had sat next to him during lunch at one of my networking groups for two years, right? And so that personal relationship is epic when you find that you, there's a lane, maybe you didn't even know there was a lane, but as a business owner, you're like, oh, no, there's another lane of expertise I have no idea about. So let me fill that lane with someone from my network that I've already created and be ready for those surprises. Sounds like might be another piece of advice, right? Because you're going to get a lot of them. Yeah. And don't don't dwell on them. I everyone to know, well, with taxes specifically, I'll get some type of notice and I'll be like, okay, I'll give you my 10 bucks. Fine. I don't think you should be charging me this, but it's fine. Yeah. Just let it roll off. I get it. I, yeah, there have been times or internet goes down. I want to get into an argument for the two hours that we didn't have internet. Okay, they give me a $5 refund. What was that worth? Right. Right. And it's going to take you more than 30 minutes or an hour to go through that argument with them, right? Yes, exactly. So that's when I start, you know, going to the store and buying hotspots for everyone, but I'll make it happen. It's all good. There's always, there's always a fix. You just got to, got to figure it out and get creative or, again, draw on your network. Well, that's great advice. And look, Teresa, we could talk for another couple hours. I really believe that every time I talk to you, I'm thoroughly impressed with you as a person. So I've enjoyed this very much. I wish you much success and appreciate the time on the podcast. Thank you,
