Randy and I discussed the discovery that comes after destruction and learning who we really are. <3
Emotionally Unavailable
Episode 41: Servitude
No more pushing me around, walk the fuck around. Thank you, Saturn, for giving me some fucking grace. For the truth was our only purpose on this Earth, right? Welcome to Emotionally Unavailable, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of emotional availability and intimacy. I'm your host, Melissa Hepner, and I can't tell you how excited I am to have you join me on this journey of self-discovery and connection. Whether you're navigating the complexities of relationships or exploring your own emotional landscape, this podcast is here to inspire, empower, and entertain. So get cozy and let's explore the depths of human emotions together. (phone ringing) ♪ Emotionally Unavailable ♪ - Guys, today's episode is with my, well, I'll call him my new friend Randy, and Randy is one of Gwen's partners. I love this conversation. I'm loving getting to know men in this way, especially men who are attuned to their emotional growth and development, and just to kind of hear a different perspective. And also just to get a different perspective in general from my own. Anyways, I hope that you guys like this episode, and I'm gonna keep this intro short because, you know, episodes kind of long, but there you go. Here's Randy. (phone ringing) ♪ Emotionally Unavailable ♪ - Okay, right on. - Okay, we made it. Thank you, Saturn, for giving me some fucking grace. (laughs) I've said all the penances I'm gonna say for today. Okay, so we're just gonna need to have a little bit of help here from the universe. Okay, so how are you? - I was doing pretty good, how are you? - I've had better days, I'm mostly just tired. I do have clothes on, I'm just freezing. Okay, first, how emotionally available do you think you are? - I would say, I would say I'm pretty emotionally available. It's something that I've specifically been working on probably in the last six years or so. - Uh-huh. - I was married before I met Gwen. - Uh-huh. - So, I've been married and divorced and had a whole last life before I met them. - And I grew up really, really strict Church of Christ, and so a whole lot of the emotions that I think are natural for people to feel. I thought was me sinning, so I was always, always, always, always just trying to monitor all of my thoughts and feelings and everything. And I was under the impression that giving of yourself was giving to the Lord, so there's a whole lot of people that I gave a lot of time to that. - Reverend Jude was our only purpose on this earth, right? - So, before that, I was very, I was proud of the fact that I didn't need a lot of information, I didn't even cost anything, so I was proud of it. But then, whenever people started asking me questions about me, I didn't ever have answers. - Yeah, I always felt like a truth. - That makes sense, yeah. Do you feel like, did it start with becoming emotionally available to yourself and kind of starting to even identify what feelings you were even experiencing, and do you feel like you're better at identifying within yourself than maybe you are sharing with others? Are you pretty balanced with that? Or like, where are you in this hole? 'Cause I think this is gonna be like a forever thing, but I also think the large portion of the learning comes at the front, you know? - I did a lot of my learning about me in 2016. 2016 was a really rough year for Randy. That was when I was asked for the divorce, it was when the divorce happened. I tried to pick up and leave and go restarting in Colorado. I got a job in everything in Colorado, and then first day I had that job, I got a call and my dad's kidney cancer had come back. So he also died that year. - Oh, gosh, that was fast. - Yeah, he was in the hospital a few weeks and it didn't take long. I had a whole lot go on and a whole lot of stuff that I thought was ironclad, turned out to be sand. - Okay, can I just tell you the energy that I get from you? - Mostly, I'm sorry, my teenager just walked in the room. Yes, okay, I didn't know he left. - Honey, I'm recording, I need you to just go, baby. Thank you, he's fine. He was snoring five minutes ago. Thank you, he's on my fucking nerves. - Okay, so like I was just trying to like, you know, get some of your energy today and you seem like somebody, not necessarily who fights for justice for yourself, but that justice is your cause. Like that word specifically, but justice and balance. Like it's, it gives real Libra energy, but like just, you know, you are willing to fight the good fight because fair is fucking fair. You know what I mean? Like that is a principle you would fucking die on. - Yeah, that'd be a pretty good explanation. I, the fighting for the underdog was something that my dad always did. - Yeah. - I was just never to be included with the underdogs. - Yeah. - So nobody's supposed to take care of me. I'm just supposed to take care. - Right, well, I'm sure that for lots of reasons, like dad's on hunting trip or whatever, you know, you become the man of the house. That's something that Brian talks about is like specifically being told that and not that he talks shit about his parents for that because I'm making that statement for him because he doesn't, but you know, that he doesn't. It would be fair if he did in my humble opinion, that he does not. So anyway, I think it is such an important topic. And I feel like one that is made fun of even more than feminism and that is what we talk about. I'll call it violence against little boys, man, where we're saying you're not allowed to feel and you're in charge of your fucking family. What a fucking great deal of responsibility. Let me tell you how many little boys have been out there and been told that and then their fucking house burns down or some random catastrophe. And the amount of things people imprint on their kids like that. And yeah, I mean, I'm super fucking feminist these days, but I'm raising boys. I'm not dumb to the plight, you know? And I married to somebody who's just now able to identify feelings, you know? - Right. - Like, hey, we're all gonna get a lot farther if we can figure some shit out instead of pretending men don't have feelings. - I never identified as much as the man of the house, but like my mom was present, but absent, she was in and out of hospitals a whole lot. He's borderline schizophrenic bipolar. - I know all about that. - Another thing. So like she was there, but still absent, a whole lot. And I ended up-- - And I'm sure you were a caretaker then, if you had a mother who was that mentally ill. - I was the, yeah, I was the little mom. Like there's, there's even a joke. My family is aware of the fact that I was the youngest of the three boys, but I still had the ability. It's like 8.30, okay boys, time for bed, let's go. And we'd just get up and go to bed. I had the seal of approval for mom and dad. - Yeah. Well, I mean, somewhere. Now, are you the baby or just the youngest of the boys? - I'm the baby. There's three boys and I was the youngest. - Okay, so yeah, I mean, the baby carries the role of, I know they have different labels than this in actual psychology. And I mean, God knows I could recall them if I wanted to, but I see it just a smidge different anyway, where, and I'm probably projecting, but the baby, you know, with the way that you have to care take as the baby of the family, especially with a family as dynamic as yours, it's a dual role where you have to know, it's a much more hyper-vigilant position at times than even the oldest, because you have to know when to, you know, bring in the comedian, when to bring in the timekeeper, when you're feeling the mediator, you know, like-- - You have to know which head you are. - Yeah, I mean, a lot of times the baby gets the bad rap and for good reason sometimes my baby brother got the bad rap for good reason, 'cause he was a motherfucker, but, you know, the pressure to perform is very high. And then you add like real life shit to the mix, 'cause that's just in a normal fucking, you know, normal fucked up family, 'cause we're all fucked up, but you know, you get a mom who's hospitalized, speaking from experience, you know, it's a next level fucked upness. So of course that's gonna bring next level dynamics and man, yeah, that's a lot to wear from such a young age and when do you decide, like, oh, I'm gonna take these layers off, 'cause I probably shouldn't have put 'em on to begin with. - Yeah, whenever you don't know you're putting those masks on, they're a lot harder to take off. - Yeah, I didn't even know. I mean, you know, like learning about the shadows of shame and getting a name for each little part of me that talks shit to myself, which you have to fucking listen to Monday's episode because it's with Kasey Taylor and do you know who that is? They're like a reverend here. It's like an inclusive church. Oh, it's not church, it's whatever. It's the kind of shit I'm into. But anyway, man, we got into this badass conversation about kind of the same stuff we're talking about, but they wrote a book about silencing your inner shit talker. So that's what we talked about and I'm gonna give out the links and shit when I actually post the episode, but that's not until Monday. So you're gonna love it though and you would love them if you don't know them 'cause, oh my God. And they have a sweet little voice, but like a badass motherfucker, you know what I'm saying? Like, oh, that's so cool. But that was the thing that really changed my life was, I always thought it was my voice talking to me. And as I started to unravel, it was like, oh, I definitely know that's not me and I know who it is. But then like Jenny Kimpton said, don't label it as the person 'cause it's not just one and it's a lifetime message because what I have found is that we'll bust hell wide open to confirm the narratives we've created. That's where we run surrounded by emotionally unavailable people because I needed to confirm that everyone's gonna leave and everyone's going to disappoint me and, you know, not love me for me or whatever, never see me. Well, I made sure they didn't see me. I was fucking hiding everything around myself. - Okay, you know. - I had a friend say that one time, like, how can anyone see you when you're hiding? And I'm like, I am not, okay, let me just go reflect on that 'cause I probably am. - Once I hear a thing two or three times, I usually feel like, okay, maybe I need to listen. - Yeah. Well, luckily it was coming like on the cusp of some other learning, but it was like the thing that made me explore and then boom, it just opens the whole portal to like all my shadows. And it's just been like daily, every day, learning something new about myself. A little overwhelming to be honest, but I'm not even nearly the same person I was in April. - Yeah, since 2016, the kind of the first thing you have to do is make room for yourself, let yourself exist. And then kind of starts making space after that, especially if you start liking things about yourself. - Right, yeah, it's a very weird shift, right? Like when you can actually start to feel positive about yourself, I mean outwardly, inwardly. I mean, I used to be very negative about everything about me. The only thing I really like could accept compliments at is like, you're very good at being a hospice social worker or what, you know, like that whole thing. And I was really good at it. So I was like, I mean, I know, thank you, but like appearance, everything else. Like I think my friends on some level, they knew me well enough in how awkward I am that like, they were like, no, I know that she wouldn't say that just to get a compliment, but there was part of them that would be like, are you fishing for a compliment? 'Cause I was like, no, I've literally never, never in my life felt pretty ever. And they're like, what? And so a couple of them would be like, I still remember, 'cause I was like, that doesn't help, but they'd be like, I don't care, pretty. (laughing) But now I get it 'cause they're like, the fuck, I can see why they would, 'cause I'm like talking to them like, you know, the most unattractive person on earth, that's fucking stupid. I mean, I'm just gonna be honest, that's stupid. So I can see why they were acting like I was stupid, but damn, when you hate every fucking thing about yourself, it's so easy to find every little flaw inside and out. And of course that's what I focused on. - Oh, and being raised in the faith, you're kind of supposed to put all those things under a microscope. You're supposed to know all of them, and they're all supposed to be bad. - That and you're supposed to confess them, yeah. - Yes. - Yeah. And that's, you know, I've decided today that I'm going to get more vocal about my religious trauma. And I do wanna be in a place where I really can be respectful in conversations with people who are still, you know, identifying as Christians. I don't feel like I am in that space right now, 'cause everything's a trigger to me. And I'm just really glad that I'm on a panel in the half where I'm allowed to love myself in every part of me, even the parts that I'm supposed to hate. I just love this shit out of them. And I don't assign morality where it doesn't fucking belong. Morality is not in the same box with humanity. They're not a package deal automatically. We get to be fucking human. And sometimes what looks like a mistake isn't a mistake. It just is, you know? So I don't know. I'm just glad to not like be hating myself because of a religion. But I have worried up 'til now about people feeling attacked because I can remember whenever I was a very strong believer in that faith that I felt like we were under attack all the time because, you know, it felt like it was the, it was politically correct to make fun of Christians. You know what I mean? It's how I felt whenever that was my friend. Now I'm like, oh, that's so cute 'cause I'm terrified to say shit about Christians. You know what I mean? Like, no, cancel culture is a real thing. But, you know, that's the thing is I'm not saying shit about it. I'm saying I don't have anything respectful to say to you right now. So I'm not saying shit, but when I do, but in the collective me, of course, I offer you all of my respect because that is your freedom to believe. My personal self does not, it has not arrived at a place of a respectful conversation. We'll just say it because I'm still in the middle of my trauma. - I still, I was always held to the, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. So a lot of times my cliter-clite is just silent. - Yeah. - Sometimes, depending on the situation I would call them, but I didn't have anybody who, I didn't have so much narcissists. I just had people who were under the impression that the manipulation that they were doing with the Lord's life. - Right, and you know what? Even I can relate to that. I mean, I've had conversations on this podcast about that. I believe that what I was doing was the right thing when I very intentionally shamed my child with like, "Oh, what would Jesus think?" You know, shit like that over dumbass shit. Like, I can't even think of an example. Like, you know, 'cause it wasn't even like lying or something, you know? Before baby, we'd walk around and say, "Oh, sorry, Jesus, sorry, God." I mean, you know, I mean, yeah, so it wasn't lying. It was a rule of follower. - I lived, there was a good portion of my life where I lived in a literal fear that if I wasn't good enough, I'd go to hell that night. - Me too, a lot of years like that. Yup, is your mother still alive? - Yes, my mom is still alive. - How does she accept your lifestyle? - I've only shared some of my lifestyle with her. I came out about being Paulie, but I have not really discussed my deconstruction from faith with anyone in my family yet, except like the family I live with now. But like, my mom and my siblings don't know. I feel like my brothers might know, just based on some of the stuff that I post on Facebook, but-- - But I mean, Paulie isn't really like coinciding with church across, is it? - No, it's not. There's, with my mom, a lot of things we just, I'm not sure, I'm trying to think of the right way to do this. - I don't know how to tell, kind of thing. - Right, like, yeah. - Yeah, if I bring everyone to that too. Every time I try and link something up about our life, she's like, "Oh my gosh, you're gay." And it's like, "No, I'm not gay." But like, every time that's always her guess. And it's, there's so much more to the world than gay and not gay. - Yeah, that was so my grandma. Oh my God, these people, I'll tell you. You know what, children, we've evolved. That's all I'm gonna say. You know what? I'm like, "We're bad at some things, but I'm not that." So that's good. - There was a little bit after I came out that I think, well, I do know because my mom, my mom writes letters. If you get on my mom's writing list, you'll get letters regularly until my mom is dead. - Oh my God. - So I would get, I'd get at least one a month, if not two a month. And there was one that I specifically remember after I came out and she met when and everybody that I was trying to explain to her. She was like, "Hey, I'm actually being me, I'm happy, "I'm doing things, I'm being a dad, I'm enjoying my life." And I remember specifically the line in the letter was, "Of course you're happy, you're dwelling in sin." And I was just like, "Oh my gosh." But my brother said-- - Oh my gosh. But tell me though, that even before she said that, those were thoughts you had yourself at some point. Me too, I remember the beginning stages of like not willing to say this, but I'm willing to test this theory and being like, "Oh, I feel so much more free "and just hearing my church people being like, "of course you're dead." I'm like, "No, I just know that's a shadow of shame "and I will not listen to it." - 'Cause I remember, I call it my former life whenever I was married in my former life. I remember talking to my ex-wife at one point because I always had really, really, this might be my real quick. I always had really, really big anxiety, big shame around sex. - Because it's church. - Yeah. - Yeah. - That's normal. - So there's one point where we were trying to work through some stuff and they were like, "Well, what do you want?" I was like, "Well, I don't really know. "I'm already 20 and I can't have like three quarters "of the menu." - Right. - Right. - So they were trying to figure that out and then it turned into, "Well, am I not enough?" "Well, bye." It's like, that's not what I'm trying to say. You asked me a question and now you're cornering me. But it's really hard to explain to somebody who monogamy is the only thing they've ever known. And monogamy was the only thing I ever knew. So it was really weird. Like I just, I thought I was, I thought I was somebody who was destined to cheat, essentially just because I would have thoughts, "Oh, that person's attractive. "I'm married, I shouldn't find people attractive." - Right. - Because I had all of this guilt and shame with that too, not knowing that it's normal thoughts. So there's just, there's just so much of my former merits that I was in that I was just walking around with this, this like sheriff button of how ashamed I was of myself. - Well, I have talked about this several times because this is a topic I wish Mormon would talk about outside of some fucking sex anonymous group, because you don't have to be fucking addicted to sex to have a lot of shame around it. When you're raised in, you know, particularly fates that really imprint on you even against masturbation. - Mm-hmm. - Okay. When you're being taught that it is unfaithful to the Lord and your future spouse to have a normal fucking thought and you're just like killing yourself day in and day out over these normal fucking thoughts, well, what do you think that that does when a person decides to like give in to the fucking temptation? Because you only have so much willpower. I'm having to have this willpower for a normal human thought. Like let's not even, I mean, you know, at that point, actually fucking someone isn't even like a thing because like, I know you're like flying because I've even thought a dirty thought or had a physical response to stimuli. - Yeah, I waited till marriage. Like everybody told me to. I am really-- - Oh, it wasn't worse. - Yeah, because I didn't know anything about it. - Are you gonna be a good partner? - Yeah, my dad never had the talk with me. The closest thing I had was my ninth grade health class. We had one day where we talked about sexual health and it was an abstinence-based program. So it's just like the, when I went into marriage, like looking back now, going into my marriage, I was just so fucking dumb, like not naive. I didn't understand anything, but I thought I did. - Yes, you were full of knowing, just the wrong kind of knowing for you. We weren't wrong for everyone, I guess. For us, it wasn't the right knowing. - Exactly, I went to a Christian college as well. That's where I met my ex-wife. - Wow, this is amazing to me. - That happens a lot. 'Cause I do not-- - It doesn't do. Do you find out I used to run Bible studies out of my house? - Yes, like I graduated from Oklahoma Christian. I got married, I did all of the things that you're supposed to do as a young Christian person and I hated all of it. - Yeah. - I like this. - No, because there was, you know what, obviously I think Paulie is great. Like I'm not even saying, I'm fine with Paulie, I'm pro Paulie. But I don't even know if you would have had such a need to go that way if you had not had so much fucking shame that you had to release, it was tied to even normal shit. You had to release even normal shit and go to, I'ma say extreme 'cause I can't think of another word, but you know, more extreme type of relationship because you can't go back once you sever those chords. You know what I mean? And I'm making a point to say that, Randy, really not for you. I'm making a point to say that for anyone who may listen and judge this situation at all. And I know you don't give a fuck and I don't. (laughing) But I would like people to understand that when you make people ashamed, you're never gonna get long term the fucking result you want. So maybe Randy and other people in this family wouldn't have desired Paulie lifestyles if they were allowed to be normal fucking human beings. But as it is too, and I think great. I said, I told Brian, I said this, so I'm not afraid to say it on here. But right when I found out, but before I like, it was like, hey bitch, this new person works with us and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, well, don't tell me anything else 'cause I want to hear this from them, you know? But you know, I was like, damn what? So I'm like, watch. And I was like, okay, how do you talk to your partner? (laughing) And I was like, I feel like this could be for me. I could do that. And so like, I've had so many conversations with Brian. He's like, oh Melissa, Melissa, Melissa, Melissa. I was like, just hear me out, hear me out. Wouldn't it be fun if, and he's like, shh. But that was like, the very first time I was like, hey Gwen. Um, I feel like we've bonded enough now to where I can ask you rude, nosy questions. (laughing) It was like, could right before school started last year? And so they're like, okay. And I'm like, okay. Well, somebody else did some stalking and provided this information to me. So now I need to confirm it with you. Where Randy and Jordan together first, she's like, yes. And I'm like, hey, one of the people are right. And so, you know, I let Gwen explain the whole dynamic to me. And I was like, I don't know why it's so hard for people. It's not that hard, but I got it figured out really quickly. And I was like, I caught it. Not that, I don't know why it matters, but you know how it, you just want the detail, damn it. - Yeah, I don't mind spilling tea to anybody. Like I enjoy talking to, I got to meet up with one of my friends who lives in Tulsa. I lived in Tulsa for a little bit, but she came here 'cause her daughter had to go to children's. And I came up and brought her McDonald's and was catching up. And she was like, okay. So I know you're Paulie. And I haven't talked to you for five years. So I need you to tell me everything. - Yeah, got you to get my mind off this. Let me know the dates, please. Well, you know, I do love this for you and for the other people involved because I don't know if you've listened to Jordan's episode yet. I was listening to it again this morning 'cause I always, you know, give it one more listen just in case I have to go fix something. And I was like, oh sweet, Jordan. Was I too harsh? Because like it was whenever I said how it was, when I said you're all a little fucked up. But you are her. I mean, surely. - Yeah. (laughs) - Like right? - We're being fucked up, family. - Look, I meant that in the best way. Like you're this little community of healers and you're healing each other at the same time. And I was just listening to this video earlier about kind of alignment and purpose. And I felt real confirmation over some conversations that I've had the last couple of days that I was like, okay, it's okay. I am on the right path because my whole goal has been, yes, I do want to reap the karmic rewards that I am so deserving of. You know what I mean? And as much shit as I got, I want that much in return. And I fucking deserve it and I am believing that I will receive it. But I also am so equally passionate about making sure it is aligned with my purpose and helping everyone who's willing to do the same. And that's the way I feel about your family, that you all are so aligned in your purpose. And that you are so ready and willing to help yourself first 'cause you know you have to and make sure everybody else is like ready to go with you as long as everyone's willing, you know? And of course, in the family of your size, there's gonna be times that someone's rebels go and kick in and be like, mmm, mmm, you can fuck yourself 'cause I know I'm not allowed to leave. - There's seven people in the house, so there's 70 toes to step on. - Yeah, and I'd be stepping on every fucking one including mine, you know? I'd be like, I'm in charge. But I don't know, like I've talked so much lately about being so ready to be nurtured because I've had the alpha in my own self for so long. And it's very weird though because I still don't understand healthy expectations and at least not the whole picture. And today I was telling Brian like it makes me a little sad because I know now what I want from all of my relationships but I know what I have to be willing to give to keep that in my relationships. And now more than ever, I'm scared to open up to people in that way because I have become very emotionally available to myself and to the people in my circle and it has hurt me a lot very recently, you know? - Yeah, if people aren't ready for emotional availability, it stardles them. - Yeah, you say something very authentic and I know their response is not about me. I know that but it doesn't make me feel any safer to share. You know, I may not destroy myself worth the way it would of a year ago but it sure the hell makes me afraid to be vulnerable. Like I've been already very scared to come out of that shell and I was just barely tiptoeed out and I'm like already retreating, you know? Not in a way that I will ever, ever stay silent again. I'm like in hell in a whole new way and at least it has purpose and meaning now because the only time I was ever really loud was whenever I was triggered, you know? And now I'm making a very decisive choice to be loud about a lot of different stuff because I do have a gift with my voice and a reach with my voice and I now have more than ever taken the underdog into my spirit, you know? Like the people who I still see fighting for their voice, nope, tell me what you need 'cause I'm gonna say it 'cause I'm not fucking afraid. - I've done, I started doing that. One of the things that the four adults who are in kind of our quad, all of us were the caretakers to some degree for another family member like Eric was in charge of all the kids in his house. Jordan was taking care of her mom. All of us were unable to stand up for ourselves but be able to point to the person to our right and say I know you shouldn't tolerate that behavior and we can't listen to ourselves but we can listen to somebody important to us and say all of us in that little circle get pretty good at saying hey, it looks like you're trying to do something. Vulnerability has been a big blessing for me at least because I know I get blessed really quick. I get really frustrated when people don't understand or if they take my intention the wrong way. I'm a Scorpio so it happens a lot. I know people think I'm mad and I'm not mad. I'm just trying to clarify. - Well, I mean, wins at all times. You all have to be mad to be intense. - Right. - Yeah. - People will think I'm upset with them but I'm genuinely trying to figure out what I've done to upset you. - Right. - And so I remember. - They're not even used to the curiosity. - Right, like why are you even concerned that you upset me? It's like because that's part of my trauma. If I hurt your feelings, your feelings are more important than mine. - Yeah, even if it's justified, I gotta make sure I gotta add that. - Hello, asshole, you know, go ahead and lighten that up a little bit. - So, but it was just, it was really interesting that all of us weren't willing to stand up for ourselves but we were all willing to like lean up against each other's backs whenever the other one needed it. My dream, my entire life, you can even ask my ex-wife, what is my dream? And it was to be the stay at home husband. It was always in forever. - Yeah, yeah. - That's what I was good at, dad would call me and he would say, okay, go take this out of the oven. Like I was the one that was starting dinner before the egg got home. So it just all made sense to me. And then whenever I got married and I was supposed to be the man of the household that didn't make sense. - Yeah, all different set of responsibilities. - So I was just, Jordan was one of the first people who was whenever I was like, no, I'd really like to be just like stay at home parent. And they're like, that's okay, it's for you. I like nobody had ever said that. 'Cause it's like, why would you wanna do that? And then whenever we met Gwen, Gwen was like, I just, I need to find somebody to stay at home. So I can go to work because I need to do this. And I was like, well, you know. - Funny you should say that. - I happened to want to be the stay at home. - Yeah. - I was in education for a long time too. I did special ed for a while. And then I worked two years at the school at Jordan set while Gwen was finishing up their bachelor's at UCO for education. And then whenever they were ready to go, I turned into the stay at home and I get the kids to school and clean up and do all that stuff. And it's a really opportunity to do the stuff that I like. Like our garden is growing every day and getting bigger every day. And it's because I'm doing stuff that I enjoy. I'm taking care of me. - Right, yeah, after that long of how much criticism you took from her and yourself and I'm sure others, you weren't in those masculine expectations. You need a lot of rest. Your spirit needs so much rest. You've got to be in the garden, you know? You've got to be tuned to yourself. And that garden's kind of the only healing that is available to you in terms of like that deep spiritual stuff, you know? - It gives the opportunity to watch things grow and I've really enjoyed watching things. I've got kind of a wild garden. Like all that things go over to seed, go over a grown and stuff like that just to see what happens. And sometimes it all turns out fine. Sometimes it ends up choking itself out but then you just put the new plant in if that plant didn't work and you just put the next one in. Point and just sitting and screaming over the plant that isn't producing. - Yeah, I mean, you get to categorize and organize and analyze and do all the things that your brain loves to do. And also do the things that enters your heart. So I think that's awesome. And it's awesome that you have found a unit of people that are all in agreement. - Well, like my mom who was the dwelling in sin person, my brother's actually stepped up and there was this previous Christmas we were signing up and my mom was basically like, and if you want your people to come, I guess that's okay, they can do this. And I was like, my understanding maybe don't want them there. - Right. - Right, I don't want them there unless you just have to have your way and they have to come. - Oh yeah, that's how we want to celebrate. Thank you. - So I called my oldest brother. He was the one that I came out to first. He's the one that I had the really strong relationship our whole life. And so I was like, I'm so this. I don't think she understands what kind of relationship I have with them. I think she just thinks I'm in a pile of people fucking or something. - Right. - Yeah, I'm Holly. - But it's not to do with sex. - No. - Everybody's first question is always that, but that was, I identify more under the Ace umbrella during my married times. Like it would just fluctuate. Like sometimes there's absolutely no interest at all. And then I don't know where it'd be like, oh, I know that urge, but it's I couldn't time it. I couldn't make it do anything with pharmaceuticals. Like I couldn't control it. And then one day I heard somebody talking about being gray sexual and they were describing that. I was like, I didn't even know that was a fucking thing. That's really good. - I really enjoyed having that word 10 years ago. - Right? See, vocabulary matters. Having my understanding of something makes you feel so much less alone. 'Cause you're like, if there's a fucking name for this, that means a lot of people are experiencing it. And so I'm not just weird. And, you know, I had kind of the opposite experience where I didn't quite wait, but as soon as we were engaged, we like stopped having sex and shit because we were, you know, getting right with Jesus. - Yeah, that happened to me too. - So I did lose my virginity to my first husband, but that's why I married him because I lost my virginity. You will be absolved of the sin of premarital sex if you marry them is what my grandma had said. So I went and married his ass. - I didn't have that pep talk. So I just, I thought I was being a really resilient Christian, but it turned out sex just wasn't really that interesting to me in the first place. So I just thought I had a really good power over my manly urges. - Yeah, well, maybe you did though. I mean, maybe it was like, I mean, shit, your brain can do a lot of shit subconsciously. I mean-- - Yeah, that's true. - If you have that much shame connected, some people go hyper, some people go hypo. So, you know, who knows, really, I think you could still explore that. But I fucking was like, okay, ready to party. And, you know, I would say my sex drive was well above average. And I would say that his was maybe somewhat below average. Man, the shame I had because that's all I wanted and nobody wanted me. You know what I mean? And some of that, I laugh now because like, you know, timing is important and I didn't understand that it really doesn't matter if you walk in and lingerie while the Sooners are playing. Okay, it just does not matter. - Right. - Like, that's so embarrassing, but I'm like desperate. I mean, at that point, it really didn't fucking matter if the Sooners are playing or, you know, he's playing super Nintendo. I mean, he didn't want it. So I was like, and then I remember bawling in church one time because there were always sermons to women about not holding, with a holding sex from their husbands. - Yeah. - Always. And I'm over here like, okay, well, when you gonna talk to the mans because withholding is happening to me. - I'm so sorry. - Bawling. And I mean, he wasn't trying to be mean. Some of it was I did go through fairly unattractive times with, you know, not understanding proper grooming. There was the timing stuff, but then some of it was this mother's sex drive was low. - Sex had to be such a production for me. And it was performative. - Well, it just, it all seemed like it 'cause I wasn't interested in it. And like, all of it was all in art. - Pretty much, like the whole, everybody in media, all of the guys who are like, hey, you wanna have that? Oh, let's go do it now. It's like, I mean, I'm in a week. (laughs) - Ah, yes. - You have to prepare your own performance. You don't have the anxiety, do you? - Right. I was constantly like wishing I did not have that drive because it wasn't fun because I was experiencing physical symptomology from it. Like, and there things need to happen. And I didn't even have toys. So like, I didn't know. This is the only person I've been with, you know, and I didn't have friends that talked about that. That's why I'm so fucking open. I'm like, what you wanna know about? You wanna take a Christmas show, which one? Because people got to know. But I mean, did that improve or is this just to you? - Whenever I met Jordan and I started realizing more about myself and realizing, oh, Polly is a thing. Oh, these are actual things that I don't need to deal guilt about. Once the pretty much every time I had more room for myself, I was able to grow. - Yeah. - I probably could have used a couple more repotings in my life as I started figuring out, like whenever I had, like, I treated Candice is my life. I treated Candice different than I did Jordan romantically, but it's because I saw them romantically different. - Well, some of them. - And not even in a sexual way, just the two very different people. - What? - Different needs. - It is very much not a type egg, so. - Right, yeah, well, she's not criticizing you non-stop, yeah. - Yeah, she was one of the first people, or they were one of the first people that ever tried to make me make room for myself in situations. - Right, because again, we see those things in others so much easier sometimes. Well, and that's where I find my most critical stuff is the stuff that I so much wish I could change in myself. And I just try it in others, but I will say this, I did change my people-pleasing bullshit, and I'm having a hard time not being very belligerent to people who are people-pleasing and say that they're just that kind of person or they're a good person. People-pleasing is not nice, it's manipulation. And I'm like, I'm a good person. I'm a good person who has excellent boundaries and what helped me be a good person. Because you don't ever have to question if I want to be doing the thing or not, you know? 'Cause if I don't know, I'm gonna tell you this too. - That's the thing I say a lot. Whenever I offer something for somebody, they're like, are you sure? I wouldn't offer it if I didn't want to do it. - Mm-hmm, yep. Yeah, I'm getting more to where like, you know, and that's the thing is I feel like making clarifications like that all the time makes me sound so fucking militant. And I feel like the way I'm coming across is aggressive these days. But I'm like, well, I mean, this was always here, but see, when you said you got silent as a reaction, my adult life has been spent going to paralysis when somebody really fucking makes me mad because I know if I don't, if I don't shut down immediately, I'm not, I'm gonna catch a case. You know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna get myself hurt 'cause I'm not a fighter. I can't fight, but my mouth will run the fuck up, you know? And I will say some mean ass shit. So when somebody like puts me in a situation where it's either I cower or they're gonna have to, I will try my very best to cower because I don't, I'm very uncomfortable with people peeing that part of me, you know what I mean? Now I have been releasing that in front of other people. And I mean, I'm sure it's traumatic, but I'm, if I'm only not doing it because I don't want you to judge me, we no longer give a fuck about judgment. So yeah, I'm gonna be a crazy ass right on display and you can, you know, have a scorecard, whatever you want because it is what it is. I'm healing and that's what healing looks like. I mean, not just a lack of accountability in that, but you know, it is what it is. - One of the big things that we have in our house, like at least that I've really tried to, to make sure is, again, I'll say vulnerability. I had advice a few years ago and it's being vulnerable. It's one of the fastest ways to win an argument. I don't like arguing. I've never liked arguing. My mom screamed a lot whenever I was little. So I don't like loud voices. Like I started using that at work because there would be times that who would be, I'm really bad at picking up people implying things or inferring things from situations. I want you to tell me exactly what needs to happen. - Can I get explicit instructions, please? - And if you don't give me those and I do something outside of that, I'm gonna, first off, I'm gonna be embarrassed because I didn't understand the situation. So I feel a little dumb. But then like I have found that if I immediately, it's like, oh shit, I'm sorry. I totally misunderstood that and just started the bottom. Like I don't mind apologizing. I know a lot of people apologize and it's fucking hard. I've done it my whole life. - Yeah, you have to apologize for your very existence, honey. So yeah, you're really used to it. - So now that I'm not apologizing for my existence, I will apologize when I make a mistake. - Right. - My dad didn't apologize or own up to whenever he'd screw up. So that's one of the things with my bonus kids that I have. I tell them, it's like, if I screw up, tell me. Like, I'm not perfect. And if I told you, you can do this. And now I'm saying, you can't go ahead and say, "Hey, you're the one that told me." 'Cause I'm hungry. - Bye. - God. That reminds me of all the times I'd be like, "Yeah, you can go to the bathroom as a teacher." And then I'd forget and they'd come back up, I'd be like, "What the fuck have you got?" 'Cause I took you to the bathroom. And I'd be like, okay, you know what? From now on, you got to write your name on the board if you're in the bathroom. 'Cause I'd never know where the hell any of you kids are. Fucking demonizes teachers. I don't know how it can be done. But do you have, you see, 'cause I can apologize to my children real easy, but everybody else, I fucking hate, apologize. I'll do it, I do, I always do. But if there's this moment right before where my rebel will kick in and be like, "But I mean, you know, they did this, this, this, "and they never apologized." And then I got to be like, that's not why we're fucking apologizing. Shut the fuck up. (both laughing) - I found out that it was most effective in having other people understand what I was trying to express. - Yeah. - Because people will be like, "Well, I told you to do this, I told you to do this." And I'm trying to explain it and say, "Yeah, but the way you told me, "I did what you literally said, "but you didn't literally want me to do that." - Right, I heard it. - I screwed up. I'm starting right here at I screwed up, and I'm trying to make it better, get it. - We need to be hateful if you just wanna tell me what you want. Well, it's really funny that you're saying that because that was my first thought in returning to school this past year. There was a person in the building that, you know, was pretty toxic for myself. And others probably, but whatever. And I spent all last summer future self journaling so that I would respond with integrity because I was so fucking tired of playing the game. I can play the narcissistic game all motherfucking day because I was raised by one. I've had plenty of narcissistic bosses. I can do it. I can every fucking time win that game. And I was fucking tired of playing, because I'm a Gemini. I can manipulate the fucking shit out of anyone if I want to. Now, I've tried to not use those powers for evil. In the last five years since I discovered that I did in fact do that. I mean, I really did not know what a manipulative piece of shit I was, but you know, once I realized I was like, oh, we will not manipulate for bad, but we will manipulate for the good of others. And I have and it worked and I'm not sad about it. But I was like, no, I'm gonna fucking say exactly why that bothers me when they do that. Like comments about my makeup. You know, like, why are you wearing your makeup so dark lately? What's going on? No, I know what the inference was, but at the time it hit this place where when I first started using makeup, my grandma would fucking torment me about how I wore it. And then, you know, you're just trying to do, we didn't want YouTube tutorials. You know, we went through the blue phase. It was like. Did your best. The shit out of me, you know, at all times. And then I had a social worker. I'll never forget this. I was in eighth grade and I had a social, I love this guy. He was a great guy, but you know, some men are stupid. So he made fun of my eyeshadow because it was a really dark brown. And he was like talking about how heavy, oh, I was wearing a lot of makeup. That's what, like a lot of eye stuff. And he was like, talk, like, I don't know how you can open your eyes basically with how heavy they must be with all that makeup. And it's so funny. Bro, that stuck with me. Like, and then this is the first time that I'm going to talk about my dad's sister. She couldn't just let you fucking like your own makeup, man. She's like, harped on. I mean, yeah, her style of makeup, gorgeous. It's the very girl next to her natural look. Yes, great. You look beautiful. Why do I have to be so fucking ugly to you just because you don't like my makeup? And that's not her words, but that's what I fucking internalized when you non-stop criticize my mom. You know what I mean? So it's like so, it's a wound that's not really now anybody could say whatever, but I hadn't identified this as a real big trigger for me. And when it was said a couple of times, I was like, the fuck and the rage. So I was journaling about it all fucking summer last summer. And it was so funny because I was gonna say straight up, when you say that, I'm transported back to this time and I'm picturing the face of the person. I'm saying this to you and I'm like, yeah, they don't even know what the fuck to say when you start talking truth like that because you're just gonna play. You know what I mean? It's chess at all fucking times. And I was like, I'm just gonna quit. I'm just gonna quit playing and I'm gonna be me. And they don't like me anyway. So what the fucking, like why do I have to worry about you if all you're gonna do is be mean anyways? - Mm-hmm. - Like I get, I definitely get that. The thing that I've really been, where I was born was like right before all of the kids starting being powerful and all of the parents were still had all the power. Like I could be brought to my house by a strange man and he could complain about my behavior and my dad would punish me. - Right. - So like I had absolutely no authority in my own existence. - Right. - Now I do. So now usually what I wanna tell, I don't specifically want to just shit on boomers but so many people in the political spectrum but like all of this person who asked about your makeup, it's like, who fucking asked you? - Right, like-- - I was raised, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything. - Yes. - But apparently it was, don't say anything. So this bitch over here can talk shit. But like they do that thing where they come in and it's like, oh, why is that? And they want you to like, oh, sorry. It's like, they want you to play the game but a lot of them don't know. I've already spent a whole lot of lives in my last one. So let me get this game now and I can turn it around real quick. - Well, it finally registered to me that if you stand up to somebody who's a bully, they don't know what the fuck to do with that. And finally, I felt the most empowered and embodied that I have ever felt because I was like, no, no, you will not bully my ass. I let you believe that you were in charge for a long time. And now I'm gonna let you know, you don't fucking look at me. And I won't fucking look at you but you're not fucking in charge of me, you know? - I, that Scorpio can come out. Like when was having, well, you know all the shit that when was going through at the end. - Oh, yeah. - I was ready to go up and start barking at their school. Like, and I take a long time to get mad but once I'm mad, it's hard to not be. (laughing) - Yeah, I guess I'm lucky in that it's real easy for me to get mad, but it's real easy for me to not be mad too. Like I can, as soon as I get to like be a bitch about something, then, well, you know, then I'm like overly apologetic, even if I'm not outwardly, you know, I'm like, there's always a war at least for five minutes after some sort of confrontation where I'm like, shrieking a little bit internally, you know, where I'm like, oh, you shouldn't have done that. I'm like, please shoot her. That's exactly what you should have done, you know? So, I mean, I know, but I'm like, oh, should I have done that? And, you know, at first it was very scary to go toe to toe with narcissists, like not playing a game but just standing in my own fucking power and be like, you're gonna walk around me. You know what I mean? Like, no more pushing me around. Walk the fuck around. The most empowering thing, you know? You just know that narcissists are very emotionally unintelligent, immature motherfuckers. So, and I got to glue with the slide a bit of emotional intelligence. They fucking run so fast. - They expect you're gonna react exactly how they think you are and when you don't, they stop. - Well, they were pulling a puppet string. So, they thought they knew your number and as soon as you don't respond that way, they're like, I've lost my magic. I'm not gonna be working on someone else. - One of the things that I have, I know, as a white male dude, I, my voice carries more power than other people. So, I always try and speak for people whose voices aren't heard every now and when we'll be like, I can't get this fucking done. - I was like, do you need a white man to call and get you through all of the gatekeeping? It's like, I am ready to be the white man face to get this person, this genius who needs to be heard. I don't need to be heard, but I know you'll listen to me. And if I say what they say, you'll hear it. - Right, right. Well, because you're not, you know, hormonal. So, you know, what you say is probably not on my period. - Right. So, yeah, that's a good time. That's, I think where my feminism started was (laughs) I'm crazy. When you can survive one fucking month of the hormone shifts that every female born person I know has to deal with, we can compare crazies. And that's, that's always counting all the trauma. - Like, I always like specifically with that. I don't have a period. I'm thankful I don't have a period. I don't have to deal with that. So, the least I can do is not be a dick about you having a period. - Well, and it's not fair too, because most of the mood is not when you're on your fucking period. It's usually four. So, I always hated that. Oh, you have PMS. That is pretty menstrual. - Right. Why did you not get that? We all had health. Like, oh my God, it would drive me nuts. Because my brother who would not say and does not say period, ever, because of, you know, all right, you don't talk about periods that make happening rainy. - Oh, I know. - Oh my God. I was like, period. I mean, I still do it just to piss them off. And I've told so many people on this podcast, like that was like a test. Like, you don't go buy me tampons. You don't even get to orbit my space, bitch. But, and my boys, I've talked about periods from the time. I'll be like, oh, I'm on my period. My back hurts, you know, whatever. I would find reasons to bring it up. Those boys are very well-educated in periods. - Right, so. - And then in your lives, you're welcome. - You will be helpful and appreciated. - My sweet little Bryson, who's also a Scorpio. So, he's sweet, but he's also not sweet. - Power patch kids. - When he was in middle school, his sweet little ass wanted me to provide him with some supplies for fans, so that if anybody had an emergency, he could save the day, obviously. He could just hold. - The whole thing was being the hero, you know. - I would have been close seeing that. - He's a kid, got it. - I was like, am I really looking at it, brother? - I always liked being able to come in and save the day, even if it was, I just like having that time in the shine. - Well, that's how you got your worth, honey. When you can serve others, 'cause that's what we're put on this Earth War is a life of servitude. You know, and I do view that differently now in a non-smart-ass-toned way that I just exhibited. I really do, just in this last week, in that idea of alignment and purpose in my personal self versus my collective self, my collective self does wanna serve, but I'm just gonna serve myself first. You know, when I'm not going to earn favor with anyone or anything by giving things I don't have to give. - I still want to serve, I still want to give, but I'm in charge of who it goes to. - Yeah, I'm not gonna do anything else by coercion or duress, whereas I spent a lot of years, everything I did was not because I wanted to do it. It was because I felt like I'd go to hell if I didn't. - That's right, I got volunteered for a whole lot of stuff because my dad knew how great it was to volunteer, so. - Yeah. (laughs) - Yeah, you know, you reminded me when you said that about like a perfect stranger could get you in so much trouble. This old lady down the street was being such a bitch that I actually like was disrespectful back because it was like, you don't even know what you're fucking talking about. I mean, and I was such a rule follower. I never talked back to anyone, but that day boy, my gym and I said, we are fucking standing up for ourselves. And I went the fuck off. And that was probably only like 10 years old. - Hmm. - And even my grandma was so surprised to hear from this lady that like I had done that. She like in her heart was like, she mustn't deserve that shit 'cause she don't do that. So she, I remember her being like, what? You know, I can all surprised. And like, oh, Missy, did you do that? And I was staring like, I mean, you know I did. Like she's saying I did, yeah, I did it. So the lady leaves and she's like, why did you do that? I was like, run, run, run, whatever she had done. And she's like, I figured she must have deserved it. It was like the one time that she like took my side, you know? And I was like, you do have a sense of fear. Okay, we might be able to work with, no, no, I'm so patient. All right, let's go. I'm like, grandma, that's fine, that's fine. Okay, I've kept you for way too long. I'm so sorry. - Oh, that's okay, I had fun. - I just was so tired all day that this like brought me back to life. And it was a nice refreshing change of pace. - Well, good. - Well, thank you so much for taking your time with me. I have loved learning about y'all's family. I'm like, so I just did I got to ask questions and be nosy. - We're pretty interesting. - You really are, but that's the thing is, I mean, yeah, yeah, the dynamics intrigued me. And of course, the sexual shit, I'm not going to lie and be like, who's back in here? You know, yeah, I did it, I mean, yes, I did, but I'm pretty sex obsessed. So, but I, the energy that I just feel from you guys is just like, like I'm so shocked. You didn't all know each other in sixth grade. You know, you remind me of fucking foster kids, you grew up in the same foster home fighting off abusive parents together, like a foster, but that's the dynamic you guys have. - We just all had different families that we were doing that in. - Right. It's crazy though, because you don't usually get that level of trauma in one household and not have a bunch of fucking explosions. So it starts because all of your triggers seem to be a little different. So that's good and you all work together well. - Yeah, we've had to be pretty vocal about if you're frustrated, you gotta say something because all of us have trouble inferring when people are upset. So I need words to put with what you're feeling, otherwise I'm not gonna know. - Yeah, well, I really hope that you guys will follow along, especially sweet Jordan, to the finding piece stuff that I'm gonna start doing on Fridays with Jane Doe, because baby Jordan still has a lot of wins to identify. - Yeah. - And there's just so much there. And I worry about Jordan's voice getting lost because-- - They were one of the first people that I had really good experience of no. If I know one thing, it's that what they're doing is not fair fighting. It's like, so I was able to help them with their family and say, no, you can put this boundary down and you're not a bad person for doing it. They will tell you you are, but you're not. - Right, and that's why I just think it's so lucky that you all have another for that because there are still gonna be times when it's hard to stand in your own power. And man, I love that you each have each other to be like, hey, if you can't do it, I'll do it for you, motherfucker, 'cause they ain't doing it to you or anyone else I care about, you know? And damn, I cried for like two hours after my shit with Gwen, 'cause I was like, how does what defend my ass? (laughing) - I mean, Gwen is the one that defends me most often. Like, I let people walk over me a whole lot, but if it happens in front of Gwen, they're like, we're not gonna do that. - That's why I worry about Jordan, 'cause you and Gwen are a lot of like and you're very like, mirror of each other, you know? Like, you mirror each other's shit, but in the way that a reverse mirror image is, you know? So it's like, your shit's on this side and there's shit's on this side and whatever. But I see both of you, I mean, 'cause I felt the fucking rage coming off your ass those last bits, you know what I mean? And I was like, where's anybody gonna have some rage for me? I mean, that's almost my makeup for the whole life. Can somebody care about me, please? The way that Gwen seems to have a whole goddamn army of care? No, I'm just playing, I didn't think that. I didn't even identify that. I didn't feel like I had anyone at that point. But I see you to be very empowering for each other. You know what I mean? - Free to your frozen again. I just don't know if you know that or not. - Well, speaking of crying, hopefully you can hear me, 'cause Charlie's very upset outside the door. So I'm gonna let you go. I hope that you can hear me if you can't, I'll message ya. ♪ Emotionally unavailable ♪ - Hey, hey, hey, what do you say? Listen, if you want to support the show, please rate, like, and share from whichever platform you're listening on. Please, also like, comment, and share on any social media posts that you see from me on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok. Please follow the podcast Facebook. Emotionally unavailable podcast. You can shop my foot online, store, or schedule a one-on-one with me. Emotionally unavailablepodcast.org. I'm offering what I'm calling non-traditional counseling, astrology readings and other woo-woo stuff, and self-publishing services. And thank you so much for listening to the Emotionally unavailable podcast. (upbeat music) ♪ Emotionally unavailable ♪ - All right, I hope that you liked that episode with Randy. And I'm not gonna say a whole lot 'cause I'm tired, so until next time, let's all just keep swimming. (upbeat music) ♪ Emotionally unavailable ♪ n-d-e-p-e-in-cut