Sweet, Jordanne. I'm so thankful for the time to have this convo. It's nice to be reminded what soft energy feels like. <3
Emotionally Unavailable
Episode 38: Quiet
[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to Emotionally Unavailable, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of emotional availability and intimacy. I'm your host, Melissa Hepner. And I can't tell you how excited I am to have you join me on this journey of self-discovery and connection. Whether you're navigating the complexities of relationships or exploring your own emotional landscape, this podcast is here to inspire, empower, and entertain. So get cozy and let's explore the depths of human emotions together. [MUSIC PLAYING] Emotionally uneventable. Hey, guys. I have my headphones in, so hopefully this audio turns out OK, gets on my nerves. It's a shit like that Rex audio, but whatever. Today's episode is with Jordan. Jordan is one of the partners of Quinn that I had on last week. I think the reason I love the idea of a poly family and because I'm a studier, I like to analyze and categorize and things like that. And I think my perception of this family is that Jordan is one of the-- it's funny that she's been identified as the loudest because her spirit seems the quietest, out of all of them, like a little more tender, a little more fragile, a little more identity-seeking than the other members of the family. Admittedly, I've never spent very much time with any of them. So this is all just me picking shit up energetically, but, you know how it goes. I just recorded with someone who really lifted my mood, you know, trying to pursue joy a lot more these days, very intentionally, and continue to pursue myself a lot. Isolating, really. I mean, so I guess that is all. I hope that you enjoy this conversation that I had with Jordan. I hope that Jordan enjoyed this conversation. I'm excited, and I hope that you enjoy this episode. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] You guys are really woo-woo like me, so I don't need to clarify this at all. But I have always felt this weird connection with you. I don't know. Do you know what I'm talking about? Like, it's like, oh, I feel like we knew each other somewhere or something. I don't know. I saw you at, I mean, the first time recorded that I saw you in my new life, I guess, you were walking down the hallway, and I was walking the other way at that event, Valentine's event. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you said something so funny. So it's like, I logged you. And I just remembered who you are from the stories afterwards, even though we didn't really get to be in person. Right. At all. So we might have known each other beforehand, but it was very easy for me to remember the first time I met you in this group. Right. I'm like, what-- I know that I never-- I mean, it would have had been a past life. I don't know. Unless somehow our families knew each other as kids or we were fucking in foster care, I mean, I don't know. Weird shit happens. So I recognize you, though. Does that make sense? It was like, who is that? And are you talking about the first Valentine's dance that we did? OK, so I was talking to Gwen about that. And I was like, do you remember me coming to you, Gwen? Like, after this happened, I walked up to her. And I was like, when the most embarrassing shit happened. So I was like, confidently, at the door of her room. She was the only one not in there. All of you just kind of turned like, we're nice. So we're not going to make this awkward. But what? Because you were in the middle of a conversation and I just barged in on. And I was like, that was too much. Bye. I didn't even know how to exit gracefully, which is kind of who I am as a person. I do not enter or exit conversations well. So I feel like I definitely have a little bit of social awkwardness as far as starting conversations. If you know anything about the spectrum of people who are autistic, you can see a lot of that. They might wait on the outside of a conversation and kind of satellite you a little bit. I'm not diagnosed, but that is something I do. So I think we're all on the spectrum. Yes. But you know, the combo stuff is where it really-- it's the entering and exiting. And people just-- I get a little tired, actually, of how much I'm told. Like, whoa, no, no, no. I'm like, you're just confirming that nobody sees me. But thank you. Like, yeah, I'm actually incredibly shy. So, you know, it takes getting to know people a little bit. I mean, yeah, I can be stupid with anyone. But to actually sit and talk, but it's not easy for me. So it takes a little more. It does. OK. I wondered what your idea of emotional availability is. Availability is the state of mind concerning how you interact with, like, your partners, your family, the people around you, and how you're able to kind of-- I don't know. See, I listened to Nguyen's podcast, and they were able to give you a number of how emotionally available they were. But I wouldn't be able to put it on a scale. So it's definitely something as far as when you're in the moment being able to be in touch with your emotions. And so I would have trouble just because I know that I get over-emotional about things. So really-- Yes, so I wonder if I might be a little bit emotionally unavailable because I'm more into my own emotions sometimes rather than allowing myself to connect. I don't know. So that would be good for me. I was trying to think about. The reason I wanted to start with that question is because I'm just getting really open about the fact that I pick up on energies and kind of just ask questions related to what I've picked up. So positionally, in your relationships at home and your family as it is, the energy that I get from you is you are simultaneously this source of strength. I don't want to say this, but-- and begging for the same in return, if that makes sense. Yes, the word begging. Yeah. Yeah, OK. That's why I didn't want to say it because it was like, so is that shit? And I was like, I'm just now getting where I listen to my intuition and say the shit that's popping up, but that's all part of it. So I'm just trying to be authentic. But I don't see you as a person begging. I'm just saying that's the energy. You know what I mean? And it's a weird kind of paradigm dichotomy, whatever you want to call it, where I love your family. First of all, I love that you're all probably so fucked up and you've all helped each other so fucking much in that way. And it's like, you're all self healers, which I am all-- on that movement too. That's, you know, I think that's great. But I think that it can get tricky because you're all healing. You know? And there's a lot of feelings there for all of you. I think you're probably all sane person. Like you-- that's what I'm noticing is we all have same struggles, really. They just look a little bit different. But also, everyone I'm attracting into my life right now has the same shit I do. And I'm like, OK, I'm just rolling with that. And I think that's why I'm picking up on energies so much better is because I'm like, oh, I know why you've been sitting here. Let's dig into that, you know? Yeah. And so I think what I mostly pick up on is Jordan's looking for an identity for yourself outside of all of your roles within this family. And I think for so long, you are so content to make who you are in each of those things, your relationships, your core center of your identity because it was a love that you haven't gotten before. And it felt so good and rich and overflowing and abundant. But now, that's never going to be enough. I mean, that's not what love is. Love is here first. And then, you know, branching out. So that's what I get is that maybe that's-- maybe that's why you're afraid that you're not connecting with others. I think you're just not feeling seen. But I don't think that has anything to do with how, quote unquote, overly emotional you are. But I would like to explore that for a second. What makes you feel like you're overly emotional? I just feel like it's very easy for me to take an idea and then suddenly, without much thought to it at all, it's this big deal. And instead of slowly ramping up and getting to a point where it's like, I can't handle it. It's like, suddenly I can't handle it. And I get to the point where I need to talk myself down very, very quickly, because the things that I'm thinking, it's like, OK, they went and got donuts without me this morning while I took a shower. I was upset because I thought I hadn't taken too long in the shower. They didn't know I wanted to go. But in the shower, I was thinking, you were planning. I'm going to hurry and get up. And then we're going to go. And then I got the notification right at the end of my shower that they left the house. And I was like, damn. So I got really into myself about it, but I got a lot of meaning to it. Yeah. So I sign a lot of meaning to little things. And that's a very, very tiny thing. But it's something that happened today. Well, I'm going to tell you, you're speaking my language. This is what I do too. I think I'm a little better at it now. But I would offer to you that that is more overthinking than it is overfeeling. And if you were to actually address the feeling in that, instead of intellectualizing something to prohibit yourself from feeling like, that's what I've been doing forever. I don't recognize that I'm blocking a feeling until I check into my body. And so if I am hurting, that's how I-- or super fucking agitated. Because for me, that's how everything presents. Because I'm triggered by everything. And when I'm triggered, I'm not nice. So if I'm in that energy, if I'm about to fuck you up, then I'm like, oh, my feelings are probably hurt. Let me check that real quick. And I'm like, OK, yeah. That hit my lost wound, or that hit my neglect wound, or that hit my rejection wound, or whatever. And the beautiful thing is, I now have a spouse who fucking understands that language whenever I tell him. And I'm like, hey, I don't know why. But that really just fucking got me right in that rejection spot that is so. But some people have one core wound that takes up their whole body. Mine are all of them. I have them all at all times. And you don't know what's exposed. And I don't know how many of the episodes you've listened to. But what I'm saying over and over is, I'll fucking care anymore. If I'm too much, go fucking find less. Because I'm not going to water myself down anymore. And if I want to fucking allow myself to tell you, hey, that hit my rejection wound, it ain't even got to make sense to you. I needed to say it because I've just given the power away by saying it because in my world, when it stays in, it gets really fucking big, really fucking fast. And it overtakes me. And I think that's where the helpless and hopeless starts to creep in when you're like, well, damn, I guess they ride, I am too sensitive. Because like, yeah, that probably wasn't that big of a deal. And you know what, I don't look at it that way anymore. I'm like, OK, my inner child, that's an area we really got to work on. Because that's where I am, is just really growing into being my own parent and loving the shit out of myself to spike any other reason that somebody else may find to not let me up. I mean, as far as finding my identity, I know that a big part of who I am now is suddenly being able to be a mall. Like when had those kids ready made for me? And it was perfect. And I'm loving who I'm becoming it. And I also know that I need to always be doing better, because they deserve it. So there is definitely that people ask me like, oh my gosh, how did you lose so much weight? Because it's probably about 150 pounds. And I'm like, I'm happy. I got married. I'm not masking or numbing. I'm a mom. Those were the things that are easiest to say, because that's what changed in my life. Everything else was symptoms of that. Everything was symptoms of me marrying when and then being a mom. Everything was going to change in those situations. So yes, but understanding that you have to shift to enter such a new role, not everybody understands that. So the fact that you're willing and eyes open to say, well, if I want to be a mom and I want to be good at this, there's probably some shit I need to do better, you know? But I do want to offer this as well. I detected just the tiniest hint of some shame in that, like a fear that you're not doing enough or being enough for those kids. And I don't know if that's subconscious or conscious, if it's something you ever think about. But just since you are kind of new to this, mom to mom, I'm going to say, you're going to fuck up all the time. And if you're not ready for that, you better sit your ass down and talk, because you are going to fuck up every fucking day of their lives. Like real good too, some of us fuck up really good, and some of us just minor fuck ups. I'm in the real good category, and that's fine. I paid for therapy, so that's fine. But I mean, my greatest source of shame is mistakes I've made parenting, and I'm just learning to be like, well, nobody gets perfect parents, honey. Like, that would be real weird. I mean, I know that we hear those, like, do you know who Noah, how does he say his last name? Kayon, Kayon? He's a little indie singer that blew up on fucking TikTok. I really like him. But anyway, he talks like about having this perfect childhood and stuff, and like great parents and whatever. And even he, I'm sure, had some fuck ups in his childhood. You know, like, nobody's perfect, and nobody needs perfect either. They need people who are willing to fucking admit when they're wrong and apologize. That's literally it. If any one of the parents I had had done that, I would have been a much different person. But yeah, yeah. I mean, the kids, they did identify me as the parent who was the loudest for a while. So I grew up in a building with people who yelled, and so yelling came very natural to me. - Yeah, me too. - And it had to be something that I stopped very quickly, because I mean, as far as when goes, if I yell to Gwen, they're ready to punch. - Oh, yeah. - For him, Brian. - I promise, if I yell around Brandy, it's definitely a like, oh my gosh, I'm in trouble, what is going on? You know, it's even yells that-- - No, it was a trigger. - It was a trigger. - To me. - Yes, yes. - Are just so big and true. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But the kids did identify me as the louder parent, the one who yells the most. And I was like, okay. I was with all of them in the car, and the boys were very like, they put, laid it out for me. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna work on that. I feel like I did, because the next time they talked about it, they talked about it in the past tense. Like, you used to be the parent that yelled a lot. So I was like, that's so cool. So, I mean-- - That's like rapid growth too. - Well, I mean, I have been, 2020, is when I tried to introduce Gwen to my parents, to be like, hey, this is serious, y'all. So, but it was before then, because we've known each other since 2016. But, definitely, I've been making my way into this, and thank you for saying it was rapid growth. It didn't feel rapid. It just felt like something that had to be done, and it's still a constant work. - Yeah. - It's easy to be loud. It's so easy to be loud. I'm allowed to-- - Yeah, well, and I think to honor that some of that is just you, and you're gonna, you know, you will trigger them sometimes, 'cause you're excited about something, and you excitedly tell them. And, you know, I would say, for me personally, the startle reflex is so strong, and people scare the shit out of me really easily, and then I'm pissed, because, you know, watching it, 'cause I'm so sweet, you know? And, so, I would say if it's like, you're just trying to like be excited about something, just preparing them that like you're entering a room first, that's what I've had to tell everyone here. Like, if I don't answer the door when you knock, I don't know you're walking in, don't fucking do it. Like, 'cause in my bedroom, I get ready in my bathroom with the bathroom door open, so I have to shut my bedroom door. I had to start locking it 'cause the 17-year-old does not understand boundaries all the time, no matter how I explain them, and it pisses me the fuck off whenever he walks in, and then I have to freak out and cover my body and whatever, because I don't really want my 17-year-old seen me naked, and he's like, just like, what is the big thing? And I'm like, well, you know, baby, I guess nobody ever beat the shit out of you, and we're gonna praise God for that, but that, I wasn't so lucky, and so when people startle me, and I think that a bear is trying to kill me, so I'm gonna need you to just be patient, just wait for me to know that you're there. Send me a text message. Usually I, like, am doing music or whatever on my phone. That's the thing, I'm wearing air pods. I don't know, so that's even worse. Noise canceling, I'm just turning around and someone's there, so it's not even just about noises. It's about presence. Sometimes I'm like, you motherfucker. So they're all learning 'cause it's last year, whenever I was just in the worst mental health condition. Boy, that startle reflex. I've never had it be that strong. So, I mean, I totally get what they're saying to, but just like, a text. I'm really excited about something, you know what I mean? - Yeah, let's talk. I mean, 'cause it's okay to be loud. It's just, you know, you gotta be careful, it's okay too. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay, so what do you feel like your biggest struggles with being vulnerable is? - Trying to think this one through. - I don't have to make myself a lesser version of me to be able to be vulnerable. I don't have to play act at being weak to be vulnerable, but that's hard. It's hard not 'cause if in the fight or flight response, mine's gone. I'm ready to tell you, you're amazing. So, I thought that used to be me too. - Come back with the exact opposite of what I actually feel. When I was taking my licensure test, they called that something and I, something response. I don't remember, but it was like, you're so uncomfortable with your feelings of negativity about somebody that you present exactly opposite, you know? Have you ever been afraid to? Like, I also would be afraid to give my authentic response because I knew how fucking ugly it was gonna be. Even though now I believe they deserved for it to be ugly a lot of those times, I should. I've just said, what the fuck? We don't talk to people like that, what the, you know? But were you afraid of your triggered response being like, like, was there a previous version of you that learned to fawn because not fawning in fight or flight was a little, like, was really negatively received? - Yeah, yes, I felt like very much the gift to others was the role that I needed to take, which is interesting because like, right after I got married to Gwen, I said, what's my role? They were like, what? I was like, what's my role in our relationship? What do I need to fill? What do I need to do? And they're like, be you? So that was the thing. I was into like, wait, no, to step into a role that was defined, so that way I wouldn't get in trouble for pushing the boundaries, I guess. But that's not- - I don't want to make too much. I want to make sure I'm fitting in the box that you want me to be in. So if you could just let me know what that's supposed to look like. Do you have like a handbook or a manual of some sort? 'Cause that's how I operate the very best. Okay, yep, are you a cancer? - No, I'm a Pisces. - Okay, I knew water sign. Okay, that makes sense. So then do you also feel like you have trouble with like the way I view water signs is basically like two bodies of water coming together anytime you're communicating, like having trouble not infiltrating each other and just kind of like rolling them in and rolling part of you back out to them and back into you. And it's a give and take and it can be pretty, but not when you're doing it with the wrong people and not when you're not being a little bit firm enough, you know? How do you, okay, you just let me know and I'll ask you a question you're not comfortable answering and I'm 100% fine with that. Okay, so you clearly have a history of trauma as well. Would you say that Pisces, no wonder you're so spiritual, would you say that your winding came more from a mother figure or from a father figure? 'Cause I usually think mother with Pisces, but that's a good thing. - Yeah, it's, my father wasn't around. So we had-- - Oh, Pisces. - Yeah, then. - So it was only my mom for a while and she didn't have anyone to bounce off against anyone to co-parent with, even when my stepdad came in the picture, which he was around since I was six. She didn't have him to bounce off of as far as parenting went. - Like the mental load and all of that stuff. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yes, so it was definitely very much a, whatever she couldn't turn out from her own upbringing, I then got it. Whatever my grandparents did that my mom couldn't work through. I ended up dying. - Okay. And are you guys, do you feel like you've been able to work through any of that with her? - Yeah, I really think I do. I think the main thing that we pressed on was her reaction to when I came out. Because that was also the doorway to saying like, hey, there was this really big shift in the way that my mom ended up raising my sister and I when our stepdad came in and there are a lot of things where we're going like, hey, we don't like this. Hey, this isn't how you parent. Hey, why don't you change this? Kind of like, we don't like this. - Why are you allowing this? - Yeah. - Yes. Very much like that. So I feel like the wounds did come from my mom. - Yeah. - 'Cause she was the one who was supposed to protect you. - Yes. - Yeah. - That makes sense. - But I mean, obviously not having your dad around creates its own set of bullshit. That's, you know, your abandonment shit and whatever, but you have some real loss. - Randy having lost his dad and when having lost their mom, it's, I am the partner of people who have lost significant parents and there were some of the things that when then when went through it, it was the same. And I know that they lean on each other in a particular way because of it, but I know that even my own knowledge of like the grieving cycle, I think I still get surprised, but I still need to be the person that says, yeah, that's valid 'cause that's where you are right now. You know? - Yeah, yeah. - So like even if it might be surprising that, oh, this season, last year it was fine, but now we're like encountering all these things, you know, that's just gonna be what it is. And I think that is one thing that I've taken on as a partner. It's one of those things that you don't really get to chew, but I feel like the grieving process, getting through it is so important. - Yeah, all of it, every ounce of it, yeah. But you know, like you having a different perspective of that is a good thing, it's not a bad thing. And you have this ability to empathize that a lot of people don't have. And I wanna say this 'cause I've been meaning to say this out loud, like either in an intro or something, what people don't understand about empathy and the difference between that and sympathy. So I'm not saying this to you, I'm saying it to the audience, but is that true empathy is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes when you have never experienced that before. Sympathy is when you can feel a feeling for someone based off your own experience mirroring theirs. And Jake can't feel empathy. He just can't. If he doesn't get it and can't sympathize, he will be a dick about it. Like he's like, that's stupid. I don't, that does not make sense to me. And I have tried my role hardest to not change that about him and I just try to offer more information, offer more information, offer more information. And I have to say it until I find the one thing that he can relate, you know? And he wanted this really bad fight freshman year because he loves to fight so much. He loves it so much like he's an MMA and shit. But at that time he wasn't and was just looking to, you know, put his ego out there on display. Well, he got in this real fucking stupid ass fight, but the boy was so sad afterwards. And Jake tried to apologize. And the kids like, oh, mess with you, I don't mess with you. And he just did not understand this kid's perspective at all. And I was like, I need you to hear me, Jake. Him saying that meant he thought you were friends and that all of that shit that y'all were talking, he didn't, he was bantering, he was being insecure, not knowing how to connect with people. And you were doing the same thing, but then you're personalizing everything he's saying and letting it hit your ego and now you guys are fighting, he didn't see that coming and you hurt his feelings. And finally, when we got some remorse out of him, I was like, okay, he's not a sociopath. This was pre-diagnosis. So I was like, what the fuck, I always knew, I always knew. And I tried to get his teachers to understand like, this isn't just ADHD. So no, I'm not willing to medicate to mask. I need to figure out what the fuck is wrong, but I don't trust anyone in the medical community because I don't trust DHS, I don't trust doctors. I don't, 'cause what people don't know, and this does not happen very often in Oklahoma, but it does fucking happen. If you don't agree with a diagnosis from a pediatrician or like a child psychologist or whatever, and you don't medicate according to what they decide for your child, DHS can force you to do that. They can come every day and put a pill in your child's mouth and make them take it. And if you don't let them, they get taken from you. And I was like, nope, we are not getting any kind of fucking diagnosis. Nope, because it was really obvious. Now his first grade teacher, I was like, she loves this kid, you know, and she wanted to help him. She saw in him what I wasn't ready to see, but second grade teacher was just a fucking militant bitch. And she wanted him to comply. And I was like, one thing we ain't gonna do is fucking comply, bitch. You know, his mother is learning how to get a voice, so no. But that's the thing is you do have the ability to empathize. So it's not a character flaw to not have experienced some of the things that they have experienced. And you have your own lived experience, and it's just as real. And you have this beautiful perspective and you fit in this relationship so well, you have your own role, you know? And it's a really important one to every member of that family. So I just wanna lovingly encourage you to remember that and to seek yourself, you know? But that's, the sad thing about Pisces but also the beautiful thing is that you're kind of a mixture of all signs. But I don't think this is exclusive to Jake, although I'm starting to notice a lot of characteristics between Pisces, but like, you know, he's on the spectrum and you believe yourself to be on the spectrum. So I'm gonna say this 'cause I feel like this is true for you too. This may be the energy I was picking up on, actually, 'cause I'm so close to him. But you're probably one of those people who triggers the egos of people who aren't secure. Like I told Jake one day 'cause I think I said this on today's episode. So sorry, everyone, I repeat my stories a lot. He's really struggling with insomnia. And so I was like, you know, we're just talking through options of medications for that because it's reached that point. And he's like, I mean, the thing is, is that I know it's spiritual, you know? Like I know that I'm growing and there's this stuff and energies and whatever. And I'm just kind of learning where to put things. And I was like, wow, that's not the sentence I could have said. But I said then, like, hey, when I was looking at your chart, like you have to know, Jake, that you, when you're put in a situation, you are there to trigger them because you're there to shake shit up like Pluto. And I'm here to shake shit up. And that's where we really like understand each other. And I get that from you too. And it can feel really isolating sometimes 'cause you're like, why the fuck do people respond to me? Like, like, you know? But it really, and sadly, I know that feeling too, where we feel like we're kind of on the periphery of relationships and like, okay, so I really am just kind of here to sign, to shine my son on you, but you're not. And some of that is us learning how to receive love, you know? But I feel like that's something I'm really starting to pick up in others is like, oh, okay, I'm not the only one who feels this way. Like, oh, there are a lot of us who have been placed on the periphery of our relationships to shake shit up. And I'm embracing that now. I don't feel lonely. I can go and have some fucking deep-ass conversation with someone like this or, you know, whatever. And I'd be sad to never talk to them again, but like, I grew, you know, in that conversation. And I got some synergy out of that and whatever. And if that's the only type of things that I really get from most people anymore, at least that was a really authentic interaction. And it's not some fake-ass, let's go to the bar with people we don't know. You know what I mean? Not that like, just to clarify, I went and sang karaoke at a bar the other night and I had a great time. I hadn't done it in every year and I really needed some joy and I made that choice for myself. But I used to be like, I mean, I only want to hang out with them, but like for the only people I know who would be free. So, you know, and that was kind of like how I did relationships because I can be friends with anyone if I want to mask, you know, but I don't want to anymore. I really want authentic shit in my life. And I didn't know that most people could handle me right now in my current cell. Unless you're also going through some fucking crazy-ass transformation, it's like, I mean, I think I'm scaring people off a little bit, but I just can't even care 'cause I'm like, you weren't meant to be here then. Bye-bye. I love you, but no, I'm gonna love you from a distance. And even that saying, I started to shift the way I felt inside when I thought about a person that I had given space to, like people, anyone I'm thinking of. And I used to make myself mad any time I would think that. Like, you know, just a shadow of shame coming up to defend them and me and whatever. And I started to do that today thinking about somebody that emotionally I've just put some space between us 'cause I just decided that, like, we're not really on the same pimp right now. And in my heart, though, when I started to feel angry about it, I was like, no, we're loving from a distance. We're not hating from a distance. We're not mad from a distance 'cause if I'm mad, I need to address it. I'm not mad. I'm just recognizing that we're not in alignment right now. You know? And that was in my quest to be softer because I'm not really hard. I just don't let myself feel shit and I protect myself with a barrier. You know? I mean, I wanna be more of a bitch, if I'm honest, but I want it to be authentic. I don't want it to be like, I want it to be in my power. I don't want it to be coming out bitgy because I'm triggered. I wanna look at you when you talk shit about all my tattoos and say, "Um, it's 24, we don't make comments "on other people's bodies and how you feel about anything "about me or my body's not in my business. "I'm gonna give that right back to you." - Right, yeah. - You know what I mean? Like, I've been practicing saying shit like that 'cause my response a lot of times is freeze because I'm not gonna be offensive, but like, I'm a little triggered by what you've said and I very much disagree, you know? But do you feel like, I wanted to ask this question whenever I was driving here more in a funny way, but since you brought up the donut example, I wondered, do you have trouble feeling like any of the members of your partner team gang up on you? Do you ever feel that? Like, does it ever hurt your feelings? - Okay, gang up on me. Like, unsolicited. - I mean, Jordan, Randy probably didn't mean it that way. - You know, like being the devil's advocate or anything like that. - No, I don't think anything like that happens. Now, if I have reacted kind of weirdly to something, they'll, they both might be like, "Hey, what's going on?" Like, "Hey, you shouldn't have reacted that way," and then, "Hey, have you taken your meds?" And usually, the answer's no. (laughs) - Have you, maybe just what they ask me. - I feel like most of the time, when I might feel cornered, it's guilt instead, that I'm feeling instead of feeling cornered, I don't think none of that type of ganging up happens, but I feel like they rejected, like they like each other more today, or anything like that. - Okay, those feelings do exist, but I feel like those are just the mean things in my head that, like they're, there are some of the things that like, okay, this is honestly happening, but some of the things are like, "My brain is telling me really mean things right now," because- - Well, sure. I mean, I think that- - I think that's what- - Only known- - The negative thoughts are lies that are, that's messaging and programming from our past is telling us, it's not even us telling, it's just a lie that was created by past messaging. I was just talking to my cousin Diana about this today, is like, how you can differentiate between what's true and what's lies, and I'll cut this 'cause I'm, nope, I'm not gonna cut it. The reason we left the church is because we decided that we did not wanna be a part of anything that asked us to hate ourselves for any reason. And I'm not gonna expound on that, but what I believe to be the truth is anything that tells me to look within, to love myself, to grow, don't do harm, those are all truths. Anything telling me to do, think, say, anything negative to myself or others lie. And you don't have to call it anything other than just a lie that's thoughts aren't facts. And that's something I've really had to learn is, and I could say that, but telling myself and internalizing like, hey, just 'cause you think it doesn't mean it's true. I mean, you're capable of thinking anything and even feeling anything. And so learning about Roy loves shadows of shame and that finding peace stuff, I've been like, oh shit, that's just my royal coming out to judge the shit out of them so that I don't have to feel the way I feel. Or that's just my judge telling me I'm a piece of shit so that I don't have to actually feel this. Like, 'cause if I can feel guilt about me, well that I can change and I can control, but like, I can't really change anyone else. So I can't really focus on the fact that that person really hurt me deeply and that I might have to make a decision about this relationship, which all goes back to attachment, you know? But it's a tricky little world when you're trying to be better for yourself, but also for others. And I think I've just had to get to a place where I'm like, organically, our shit will get better when I get better. And for so long, my self-help journey started because I truly believed I was just the problem in every one of my relationships. In some ways, that's true because I was emotionally unavailable and I made damn sure to put a fuck ton of emotionally unavailable people in my life. I can't say I have one, not fucking one person who understood enough to say this is how I'm feeling, this is where it stems from, this is what I need, you know? Not one, not a single motherfucker in my life could do that before this podcast. And some of them still try, you know, but that's fine too. So I just wonder too, like in you looking for an identity, that's not the way we worded it, but you know what I'm saying? Outside of now, Jordan, new mom, how much of a struggle that's been for you to be able to say, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I need, this is where it stems from. Yeah, that's definitely where a lot of the work is right now because being able to say what I need also, I mean, I've encountered this problem where my insomnia has me up at three to five in the morning, witching hours almost every night. And my ribs might be hurting or last night, I was coughing a lot and the question in the morning from my partners is, well, why didn't you take a leave or Tylenol, why didn't you put on a pain patch or some pain cream, why didn't you take this medicine or that medicine? In the moment, I don't think about it. Now that's medicine, but still as far as diagnosing myself and saying what I need, I can't tell you what I need, but I can tell you where I am and what the feeling is. That's good, that's good. So I'm still getting to the point where there's actually an answer for what's going on. - Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out what answers are okay. - Well, maybe I, listen, I know what that means so much. Diana and I've been talking about this all day today because I use the word aloud. What am I allowed to feel? And I don't know why. And I think it's because I do operate a little better with some rules and some structure. I do, I'm now not too much 'cause I'm a Gemini and I wanna break all the fucking rules and I was not allowed to as a child. So I'm gonna bust hell wide open to do it now. It's, I self-sabotage really good because of that. I'm like, oh, I shouldn't spend all my money on T-Moo? Well, I will anyway. How about that? Really showed you and myself, didn't I? If you are interested, you guys really should get that Finding Peace book. He are sometime this week going to start recording about it. Well, that was the goal. If I need to push that back a week, we may end up doing that because it's feeling a little bit rushed and I know Jane's got a lot going on, I got a lot going on. But sometime this week or next week, all anybody's read up to or supposed to at this point is there's a bunch of shit on attachment and then you get all, and then it teaches you about each core wound, loss, abandonment, rejection, all those things. And you will identify so many things. And so once you can start to track, oh shit, when you do this, I react because of this. This time when I was five, this happened and that feeling is the same feeling. And you don't have to remember in that moment that that thing happened at five for your fucking body too and your heart too, you know? And so you are, you're transported unless you know that and can tell yourself, hey, that's not what we're dealing with here. This is me and my current version, the badass bitch that I am, you know, like we're doing this and then, but I do need you to know that just for a second, I was there and I need you to not do that again, okay? I think that's the important part. But I like, I mean, I told Jane this, I went into reading that first part a little cocky 'cause I saw that it was on attachment and I was like, I feel solid in my attachment theory. So like I'm really annoyed that I gotta learn more about attachment, but I, you know, I did wanna watch other people, but just gone through a couple fucking wound lists and I was like, oh, I've been ignoring that one. Yup, sure have. And I understand the wounds very well, but I didn't understand how encompassing each wound is. Like the lost wound, I said like, oh shit, I've had so much fucking lost that I've never let myself acknowledge because I had so much death that that was lost to me. And, you know, when you're an orphan by 22, it's like, well, but I lost a lot of other shit too. I lost the whole fucking childhood. So it's okay for me to grieve that, you know? And I think giving myself permission for anything I fucking want really helps too. At first, I think I started leaning into astrology because it gave me so much permission to just be me. You know what I mean? Like I was like, I don't think I fit here. I think I fit more here because I don't wanna be any of that shit anymore. And this says you can be non-traditional or, you know, whatever you want over here. And I'm like, this is my people. And that's okay, you know? Y'all are good and I'm good. And we don't have to compare or contrast. We're just different. But I think that it's really scary too because if you're a person who was taught like we were, you can't have needs because your sole purpose on this earth is to make sure everybody else's needs are met that way where you really struggle with that identity piece. And especially as a mom, you know, I really struggled with that like, oh, because this was the most important thing ever will do in my mind. It has to be the most important thing to me at all times. And first, and I take a lot of shit for this and have for years and I just now about to a place where I truly don't fucking care. Those kids don't come first. They sure the fuck don't because they have a mother who has mental health issue. And I have an extensive history of trauma and require certain things for functioning. I have to make sure my needs are met. Or else what I've learned is I've become a psycho and ruin everyone's life anyway. So what's the fucking point in even trying to self-sacrifice? I'm a sacrifice them too. We're all going down with this ship. Let me tell you, and it's not intentional. It's not what I want. It's what my inner child who's just trying her best to get better needs in that moment. And we all just burn with it, you know, whereas if I can say, hey, I understand and I get it, I know you're disappointed that I don't want to go to the skating rink with you today. And that's just going to be dad. I get that and I'm sorry that I can't go with you today. But if I do go, what's going to happen is I'm going to be agitated and irritated. I'm going to take that out on you. And that's going to take away from the good time, not add to it. And it's just not what I have the capacity for right now. So I'm not going to go, but I do want you to know, I care about how you feel about that, you know? And that's been kind of new, a new practice because I'm learning, you know, everything I didn't get, I have done to my children. And so crying is a noise that I can't tolerate. I just don't do noise as well. And crying is a noise that I can't tolerate. But more than that, I've learned that when one of my children are crying and it's my fault or it's something really big, it just triggers this, I fucked up, I can't do it. There's, this is a thing I can't fix. I'm not enough, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's a lot of rapid buyer bullshit that pops up. So then what do I do? I mask with anger. And I'm like, me, me, me, me, me, you know? So I'm trying really, as a matter of fact, I'd send fucking Brian a text five minutes in. I could hear Charlie and they're crying. I was like, I mean, her crying is distracting and asking me, can you please address it, please? I don't know why the fuck she's upset, but I'm sure it's not that serious today. But I am trying to validate her more. First of all, it goes away a lot faster if I just pretend to care a whole bunch. So I learned that with her and the kids at school. I got to her, I'd be like, are you serious? Do you want me to talk to them? Okay. You know, and then they feel empowered. They go on their day. I didn't have to hear the whole story for 30 minutes. You know, I didn't have to really split for making them feel like shit, none of it. And so now I'm just like, oh my God. So sorry that happened to you in my heart. I think, you know, my baby's a little drama queen, but so is her mother and she comes by it honestly. So that's okay. That's okay. I was telling her yesterday, very much lately, I have been letting people know the types of things that I'm teaching her. And I had to tell her yesterday, hey, I apologize because I told a friend of mine, a male friend, we were all like at their house. And I don't remember what the fuck he said, but I said, hmm, don't worry. I'm teaching my daughter to be a bitch. And she didn't give a fuck that I said it. She's so used to me saying it. But I stopped and she was just like standing there waiting patiently for someone to go drive her on the damn jet ski thing. But I looked at her and I was like, hmm, I don't like that messaging actually. So I was like, I, I'm just kidding, baby. I'm not teaching you to be a bitch. I'm teaching you how to decide for yourself who is and isn't safe, right? And she's just looking at me like nobody cares mom. But later I talked to her and I said, I need you to understand that I don't, I don't want you to be a bitch. 'Cause, you know, like being a bitch, that's not all it's cracked up to be. I've always talked to you about the balance between heart and softness. And sometimes you gotta be a bitch. And I said, for instance, I was being a bitch when I said it like that. And that was my way of setting a boundary for you. And so if I ever talk like that about us in front of someone, I'm doing that for a reason to let them know we're not gonna fucking play. So I'm sorry if that like embarrassed you or made you feel weird. But sometimes I'm gonna have to put it that way so that they understand, period. Like we're not, we're not discussing whatever I said further, nothing like, nope. This is the way we roll. And if she doesn't wanna say thank you, when you compliment her or anything else, like that's, you know, that's about her. And she's allowed to make those decisions. You know, when the boys mostly Bryson, when Bryson was little, one of my big sources of shame is that I wasn't, I couldn't even stand up for him. Like I could not tell people when they hurt me. And because of him, you know, like calm, you know, saying stuff about him that I took to personally, a girl at the mall in a little play place when they were like two hurt him. And I was just like, cray out. But my friend like fucking screamed at her. And I was like, why was that so, like why couldn't I like naturally stand up for my kid and be like, hey, where's your mom? You know, or whatever. But I just was like crushed that it happened. And then just the shame spiral started. 'Cause it's like Melissa, you should have said, you should have said, you should have said, you should have said. And I think where the shame really came from is I never learned how to use my own voice for me. So I've become real good at advocating for others. I mean, I became a fucking social worker, but learning that I'm just as worthy as everybody else for advocating and I'm gonna start with me now, you know, I'm gonna make sure. And I hope that the pendulum will swing a little bit to where I can be a little less rigid and whatever. But it's one of those things where when you're first introducing a new concept to somebody, you gotta drive out. And I'm kind of seeing people's responses already to this new vibe. And I'm like, can't care, man. Like I don't feel arrogant. I don't, and I don't feel being, I feel empowered, but I know that it can come off mean and/or arrogant. And it's not that I finally know what I'm worth. And as a human being who exists on this earth, that's the only reason. That's all it takes to be worthy of being treated well. We don't have to treat each other like shit. What do you think that the biggest struggle managing more than one partner is? The biggest struggle. I mean, it's just going down to the basics of communication. You just have to be willing and available to communicate even the small things. Yeah. Is that like, like you struggle with-- Well, like, at one point, there was this behavior where one would say, OK, this is what we're doing. And then we'd all go, OK, make the plan blow up a blog. When we leave the room, and then I turned to Randy, and I'd go, what did they just say? Oh. Oh, you little spicy zast. Uh-huh. OK, OK, we have the plan. Wait, I didn't get any of the plans. Somebody, please, tell me. And then-- Wait, would you know that before Gwen walked out of the room? Like, I don't understand. And you just waited to ask the person that you-- OK, OK, OK, OK, I'm getting it now. Was Gwen like-- What the fuck, Jordan? You so easily could have looked at me and been like, wait, can you clarify this point? Yes, it took a while. It really did. It took a while. Eventually, they were like, I don't know what you're doing. It seems like you're whispering every time I leave the room. Oh. Oh. And I know that bothered Gwen. No, and then it's like, I'm just clarifying, and they're like, why don't you ask me? Oh, ha, ha. So that tells me that you grew up feeling stupid a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is probably one of the worst-- well, anyways, I was vacuuming for the first time. Look at me, and my mom comes in screaming, and she's saying, don't you know that when the vacuum makes another sound that it's breaking? Yeah, mom. I definitely knew that. Are you like my students? Because she was a special education teacher at the time. Are you like my students? Do you not say hello when people say hello to you? Damn, moms are mean. So that whole thing there, right? But it's definitely like a-- if I don't know the answer, I'm not going to ask again. OK, yeah. Why didn't you know, you know? You should have known. What the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah, I actually had a very similar experience that I talked about with my grandma, where I was just doing this thing to kiss her ass to get my way on something because I learned early that she would get over something real fast. She was also Jimmy. If you just did something that you knew and make her happy, she'd get over how mad she was. And also because she got mad at me for dumb shit, because that was perfect. We had indoor outdoor carpet, and I fucking didn't know that you were supposed to sweep away from underneath-- you have your counter tops up here, and then your cabinets underneath. We were supposed to sweep underneath the counters to get the shit away, because the vacuum cleaner can't get all the way up there. I'm like fucking 12, bitch. You ain't ever told me how to do this, so how do I do that? And she had the same reaction. I was excited to show her, and she's like, are you fucking kidding me? And I'm like, what? No, I was serious. What did I-- And then I mean, I've repeated that a couple times. I haven't said, are you fucking kidding me? But I've been like-- and then I noticed that they were-- because sometimes their legitimate effort just does seem pretty effortless. It does. And I see their face, and I'm like, oh, you meant that. OK, you really were trying. OK, hey, you're right. Can I-- that's whatever. I don't know if this is like healthy or not, but I have to look at them and go, I hear you. The thing is, for me, my mental health really hinges on whether or not this is clean to like what I need, and this isn't going to work for me. I'm so sorry because this is not going to work for me. And I don't make them do that everywhere, but sometimes like the once every three months, four months, that I'm like, I need your room mom clean. They know what it means, and that-- I think they've learned that that means if I'm needing everyone's room, mom clean, and the whole house, mom clean, mom going through something. If I'm saying I need that, mommy's going through some shit, and we're going to go ahead and do it. And then I'll even like, you know, because Jake's got to press the boundaries a little bit. He just does. And also, you know, he's forgetful. And so he'll like, forget one little thing. And I'm like, OK, well, that's OK. Because he-- we really tried in there, you know. But yeah, that's so weird how cleaning is the thing. We're like, trial by fire. Like, what the fuck? We just expect kids to know how to do shit without teaching, right? Yeah. So I try. I mean, you know, when that shit's bred into you so deeply, though, it's hard not to repeat those patterns. But yeah, I think that's one of the biggest reasons that I grew up feeling stupid. And I don't think words like that were used with me. Do not suppose-- My mom hates that word. I hate that word. It gets to the point where Gwen has to say, sorry, Jordan, I'm going to say the R word before saying in a conversation. It's like, if it's ever used, everyone knows to apologize to me first. Right. Yeah. Because I am-- [INTERPOSING VOICES] And so the fact that that happened at all, it was just very much like, what? It was very much a break from reality, which is why it's so easy for me to remember it the way that I do. And I guess part of what the reason why I dislike that word so much. Yeah. It's definitely not painful that word is in the context. Yeah. Yeah, people like you are the legitimate reason that I don't use it anymore. Because I'm kind of a rebel at nature. So when people start throwing out causes and it's a little too loud for me, I want to rebel against it. So for like five years when the R word movement first came out, I was like, I mean, I don't really use that word. But like, if I want to, I can. But I've started to hear the impact of that word. And I think it probably-- I think it probably took people treating Jake like shit and calling him, are you autistic? What the fuck is wrong with you? You know, shit like that. And then coming to find out he really is, you know? Which thank God he has zero shame. He was thankful. He was like, thank you. Something that says why I'm so fucking different than every mother fucking person I know. You know that he was crying as much as we don't pray. But you know what I'm saying? Like he was seeking the universe's help with a diagnosis. He was like, no, I'm mom, because I was scared. I was like, Jake, now the psychologist has said that it's up to us whether or not you are present for receiving the results of the test. I personally don't want you there when I'm processing the information. Are you OK with that? Like, I don't know how you're going to process it. And he's like, whatever you need, that's fine. But like, I am hoping for the worst of the worst, because I don't know what's wrong with me. I really irritated the shit out of me how people just had to fucking go label themselves something. You know, now I get it though. I do. It's not a need I have except for there are certain labels that I carry, but I don't need to fit into a group of anything if that makes sense. Like, that's just not a need I have. But that's because I'm really fucking used to being alone. So, I mean, I can be surrounded by a fuck 10 people and I'm going to be alone because I'm not connecting with one of them, you know. You're getting the median and the performer and the entertainer and all of that. You're not getting me. This is me. This is the type of shit I want to talk about all day, every day, and it feeds me in a way that nothing else will ever. Now, the other parts of my personality do love to go and fucking sing karaoke. But I was reading tarot in between songs. And you know what I mean? Like doing shit. Yeah, I had a great time. I was so like, oh, and I'm not even afraid. Like, I didn't want to say the word begging to you. But it was like, I'm learning to listen to the promptings and just say it and like whatever. Because even if that's not something that you know about yourself right now, you'll think about it and you'll be like, I'm not caught on my scene. But yeah, poor little Jackie. But I don't remember it ever being worded even. I think it was just like the way she took it really was not you're stupid. She internalized everything I did to believe that I was trying to communicate to her that I didn't give a fuck that she was raising us and sacrificing her life for us and all of that martyr-ass shit. So she didn't intend for me to feel so fucking stupid. But in my world, as you know, the child absorbing all of this anger from her, I thought, how could I fuck up like that again? Like, look at her, she's crying. And like, I did that because I'm so fucking stupid. I don't know how to fucking vacuum. You know what I mean? And now having said that out loud to you, I think I can release a little bit of anger for her in that moment because she didn't even know how stupid she was making me feel. And she just didn't know how to say what she needed. And I'm recognizing more every day like how human she is and that she's not this superhuman evil force sent to fuck my life up. She did her best, you know what I mean? For goodness, it's gonna be a very long process with her. But in some ways, I was sad that we didn't get there before she died. But in other ways, we weren't going to anyway. So it's easier almost to forgive from this side of things. - Yes. - But I think you have to remember that whenever you're struggling to say, I don't understand. That doesn't, obviously you know this, but that doesn't make you stupid. It doesn't make you unintelligent. I think that the most intelligent people ask the most questions, they're curious, you know? And you are a Pisces, there's no fucking way. You don't have all this intellect and emotion and whatever going on. So tap into that, you know? Like, first of all, this is gonna help somebody else because they're, all of us are walking around with our baggage just hanging off of us. That's why everybody's hurting everybody else because we don't know what to do with our shit. You know, we don't have anywhere to put it. And so our drawers are full, our closets are full, our fucking bodies are full. And we're just like, can you please? We hold this for a few minutes, please. I just, I can't hold you anymore. My arms are hurting, my heart's hurting. - What are your, now that you're kind of identifying that, can, is anything else popping up? Like, oh shit. That might be a triggered response too. - Can't think of anything right now. But yeah, you want to spot, yeah, yeah, that's okay. - Yeah, they need to think about something, so. - Yeah, again, I think the biggest thing I can really like lovingly encourage you is to truly seek yourself outside of anybody else in that house. You have to have friendships outside of that house. You have to have alone time, you know? Time and nature by yourself. Time and nature with others. Meditation by yourself. Meditation with others. 'Cause you're never gonna be fulfilling in those roles as a partner or as a mother if you're not fulfilled as Jordan. And I think it's this beautiful thing that you're so open and accepting to just like, I'm a mom now, you know? 'Cause let me tell you, I have lots of friends that are like, yeah, I'm a step mom now. - Thank you to me there, you know what I mean? - Yes. - So this has a lot about you and the love that you have to give. But remember, we usually love in the way with it. We're begging to receive. So you gotta give yourself that shit too. You know what I mean? - That makes sense. - Well, thank you for your time today. I really do appreciate it. - Thank you. - I know you're gonna meet with Randy at some point. - In the day? - Yeah. - So excited. - Yup, then I've just gotta get Eric on here and we've got him all. - Yeah. (laughs) - I do appreciate you guys. And you know, you just wanna tell Gwen that I said, thank you for making everyone in your family support me. That'd be great. - Okay. Yes, yeah. - Okay, have a good one. Bye. - Bye. (upbeat music) ♪ Emotionally on a visible ♪ - Hey, hey, hey, what do you say? Listen. First and foremost, please make sure that you have provided this podcast with a five-star rating on whichever platform that you are listening. If you want to support the show, please rate, like, and share. Also like, comment, and share on any social media posts that you see for me on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok. Please follow the podcast Facebook, emotionally unavailable podcast. You can shop my foot online store or schedule a one-on-one with me, emotionally unavailablepodcast.org. I'm offering what I'm calling non-traditional counseling, astrology readings, and tarot readings, and self-policing services. And thank you so much for listening to the emotionally unavailable podcast. (upbeat music) ♪ Emotionally on a visible ♪ - All right, I'm tired, so that's it. Hope you like it. Until next time, let's all just keep swimming. (upbeat music) ♪ Emotionally on a visible ♪ - I-N-D-E-P-E, and KUT.