Here is a conversation between Brian and me about things he's learned from the podcast. <3
Emotionally Unavailable
Episode 32: Education (Meet Brian)
[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to Emotionally Unavailable, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of emotional availability and intimacy. I'm your host, Melissa Hepner. And I can't tell you how excited I am to have you join me on this journey of self-discovery and connection. Whether you're navigating the complexities of relationships or exploring your own emotional landscape, this podcast is here to inspire, empower, and entertain. So get cozy and let's explore the depths of human emotions together. Hey, guys. Coming at you from Mississippi. Today, you are going to listen to me and Brian have a little combo about things he's learned from the podcast, sort of. We get a little off-task, but you know how it be. So enjoy. [MUSIC PLAYING] OK, for anybody who does not know Brian, this is Brian, my husband. Say hello, Brian. Hello, everybody. OK, so what do you feel like your emotional availability is now that you've been listening to the podcast? I've probably moved from a one or two to a two or a three. OK, out of five. And how would you define emotional availability? I would say maybe letting the right people know your emotions. There's certain people in your life you're supposed to be available with. And then there's certain people you just kind of run across in your life, or maybe they're bored, you're around them, but they don't need to know. Like all your stuff? Any of your emotions. Yeah, true. Yeah, I mean, yeah, so you're saying that-- I'm going through a drive through McDonald's. Right, yeah. You know, the 17-year-olds have in a bad day. Yeah, and you know, sometimes they do like to share that information. It's funny because admittedly, you're not great at small talk. And so when somebody just trauma dumps on you like that out of nowhere, even though it's heavy topics, I'd call it small talk because you don't know this person. Now, I would know how to respond to that, but you don't feel like you do know how to respond to that, right? My brain would think of five different ways to respond to them and shoot each of those five down within two seconds and overwhelm. And I would just say something and it might be like it doesn't make sense. OK, right, so what's funny to me is what a magnet you are to those people. But I think it's because you're quiet. And so, you know, like, oh, it's my turn to talk because this person's not talking. I get to talk. Would you say that that was something that you liked about me when we met is that I listened when you talked? Yeah, there were not a lot of people for me to, you know, have deep conversations with about, you know, everything in my life at the time. So, yeah, definitely. And I was in a search, you know, for truths and things like that. And so, you're in a search. You'll find people and those people have lots of truths and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm starting to hear the same truth over and over from some of these people. And, you know, it's not anything I'd come across before. Right. So really, like, drives home the idea of, like, the opposite of a universal truth. Right, right. I kind of think that in terms of my belief system, even in mental health, like all the holistic psychology stuff, I feel like is not part of a universal truth. I feel like it's a pocket of newness and life and whatever. And it's hard for me to understand anyone who would not love this information. But that's the truth is that there are people who don't and I'm learning to hold space for that 'cause I'm, you know, me. I'm not good at it because it doesn't make sense why you wouldn't like it. You know, like, I'm sure that there are people with religious beliefs that say that about me, you know? Yeah, but I think, you know, I was ready. I was looking for it. I was ready to receive it and giving it to me, like, advice. Yeah. When I was 18, when I was 25 even. You had been begging the world to help you up to that point a bit. Like, you know, in terms of, give me these people in my life who are gonna be able to lead me. Yeah, some of that for sure. But I'm also, some of it, I wasn't open to receive. So I wouldn't want to be able to make it. Oh, absolutely. Oh, no, that is such a good point. Earlier. Because that's so much of the work that I've been doing is very intentionally with that in the forefront of my mind. Being the type of person who can receive the things that I want out of this life. Because even just the limiting beliefs made me move in a different way than I'm moving now. And you move in a different way than when your limiting beliefs told you, well, but are you gonna stick with it? You know, I know, I know that I've done this struggle. I know that had to have been one of your things too. 22-year-old me, 22-year-old me, thought you went to college, got a degree, then you did things. You, people, I didn't know that you could do things that weren't your degree, you know. Right. Like, and really there's most things. 80, 90, 98% of things don't have a degree. Right. And there's a count. There's a doctor even. Like you're saying there really isn't that much, like specialization in the world in terms of how many degrees there are. It's not required to be so specialized. Right. Like, okay, I feel guilty for saying this, but I'm going to because of my idea of what human resources is. I don't know why you have to have a degree for that. Right. Like I'm not talking about the therapy kind of human resources. I'm talking about the person who does your onboarding when you get a new job and you sign the whatever and they help you understand your insurance benefits. I'm not saying that's not a valuable job, but I don't know that you have, there isn't a single fucking ounce of college that's going to give me a piece of information for that job that's going to be useful. Right. To like anything you're doing. It almost seems like six months and some tests. Yes. You're there not three years. Yeah. Online Masterclass would get you to be a human resources expert. I bet you. No, I'm not talking about the people who do like the crazy, you know, big time stuff. I'm just talking about your average human resources employee. I don't understand why that requires a degree. I just don't. And some probably don't have a degree in human resources. They just have a degree in chemistry, but that was enough to get the job when they're out. I don't know about that just because of the whole idea of over qualification. But maybe. I mean, I know, you know, no, it's probably harder to get a human resources to become a teacher in the state of Oklahoma, but that's all we're going to say about that. Okay. So I want to get back onto the topic that I want to talk about the E. Okay. So something that I really wanted to, well, first, the question that I wanted to ask you, we'll keep, you know, we'll start a little light. Does it bother you? And granted, there's a couple, the last episodes you haven't listened to yet. And I probably talked more about you than I have in the previous, whatever. Does it bother you to hear me talk about you on a podcast? Or, you know, like, is it awkward? Is it anything? No. Okay. I just, I haven't asked you that yet, so I just wanted it. You don't, I don't think. I don't hear you showing me in a bad light. And you know, I try my best. Right, right. I mean, I'm not perfect. And, and when I make a mistake, I apologize. And, you know, yeah, but I'm, I'm not, you know, trying to close my eyes and, and stay the same and not grow, get better. So you're fine with your flaws being on display as well? Sure. Okay. I just wondered because I, I, I hadn't even thought of really asking you that until recently. I know, no, no, no consent at all. And I'm so sorry about that. I think about that sometimes with the boys. Like, I don't say stuff that I know when they, you know, but sometimes I'm like, do they mind me talking about them? Which Bryson has said he, he doesn't, he's not telling me not to, but that's one of the reasons he lists for not listening is he doesn't want to hear me talk about him or our relationship. Okay. Well, that's good to know. What do you feel, what has there been anything surprising about this scenario in terms of things you have learned from the podcast? Definitely. Surprising stuff? In my mind, lots, my past mind, I probably should call that before the podcast. Yeah. But uh, BP. Yeah. I thought of everything semi black and white, not so much in like triggers happen. It was all choice. And I'm, I'm not stoic per se, but I definitely understand it. And I've definitely made those sorts of choices to a real man or whatever is going to be less emotional. Uh huh. Yeah, that masculinity that you were taught. Yeah. And look at things unemotionally from lots of different perspectives and, and make your choice from that. So most of the time, you know, I thought of myself before the podcast as not having those triggers. And so a lot of ways I thought you didn't have triggers, which I was 100% more about. Yeah. You thought I was just making a choice to be me. Making a choice, right. Yeah. Not reacting, like you were, and it was kind of a. It was like a character. Like that's who, like you viewed me as this person who was mad. And I just said mean shit because I was mad. At that point in time, you, you know, made the choice to not, you know. Only because I was mad. Right. Right. That overall I'm not this bad person. But boy, I have a temper kind of thing. Right. Yeah. And it, you know, in my mind, there's like you take that time and you have five different, you know. Right. There's so many ways to respond. Why is that the choice you made? Right. If it's not what you meant, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. But I started to pay attention to myself. And when I say, you know what? I'm going to react emotionally because I don't want to turn it off. And I want to turn off the emotion. I want to just let it go. I now look at why. Why did I feel that way? Why did, you know, and even if I chose not to, if I chose to bury that feeling and make one of those five choices that was make it bigger or smaller. You're making the problem bigger or smaller. And I've chosen to make the problem smaller, not add fuel to the fire. Right. Like why make this choice right now and address it later? Well, why was that feeling? So you so far, that's been your biggest surprise is probably would you say it's fair to say, too, that you're surprised by the amount of information that you take away from the podcast? Yeah. How much I understand you better? How much I understand myself? I will say this. I definitely be BP. I definitely did not ever get a sense that this was ever going to be any sort of priority for you in terms of growing emotionally. But it seems especially based off what you just said, because that's the first time you said that. But it seems like you have a vested interest in that growth now. I don't look at myself. You know how some people are very good at math and some people are very good at science and the writing and those sorts of things. I've never thought of myself as very good at emotions and emotional conversations, you know? Like a kid is crying, they're skin their knee. Am I going to be the-- I'm going to say something and show I care, but I'm not going to immediately make them feel better. Yeah. I'm trying, but I'm not successful. Yeah. And a lot of that. You feel like you're not good at the emotional comfort? Like naturally. Yeah. Naturally. It's not-- yeah, OK. That's a good way to say that. It's something you have to be intentional about. Very mindful and present with your-- yeah. But you know, I think the fact that you can say that now and not have so much like shame attached to that is a really good thing. I think that really helps you. Have you found any benefit to allowing yourself to feel things? Well, it's kind of funny that you're speaking human resource types of language. That probably was BP. You know, that was the reason. I did a lot of-- other than our relationship and being married and trying to have the best for the kids to look up to the best example of a good, healthy relationship, right? Because if they see a relationship in a certain way, that's what they're going to be guided towards. So I want their life easier. I want them to be happier. Then they would be without me being their parent, you know? And so that's been a motivation before. And then also kind of just having employees and having them like where they work, you know? Just like you didn't like your job. I didn't-- right before I met you and everything. It was at the end of 10 years of-- Hey, I didn't-- You were going through what I just went through. Yeah. I need to leave this. We're done. This 60 hour a week, you know? 7.30 AM to 7.30 PM, six days a week, you know? I need to leave that. Yes, I get-- yeah. Today, you said-- or yesterday, I don't remember-- I was talking to you about the wound that teasing hits. And you said that it just makes you mad at the people who created that wound. Do you feel that kind of stuff a lot? Do I get mad at the people that have wounded you? Yes. Yes. And when I-- when I vision, especially like an after the podcast, I vision this voice telling you something and teasing you, especially because some people, that's kind of their-- they're almost sort of-- I was like, yeah, it's the only way they know how to show love. But right. And so-- and I see that. And now, I see it in almost a different way. But they are lovingly doing it, but your childhood, they were pecking order. It was-- whoever was being picked on is at the bottom. And if you don't want to be at the bottom, you better start pecking. Yeah, absolutely. And there's a whole bunch of chickens. Yeah. Yeah, so-- And for entertainment, the adults turning the kids against each other, all kinds of stuff, yeah. Yeah, I don't think too kindly of them. It really hurts to think about what would have happened for you to be triggered from something, you know? Right. Like, sometimes I'm telling a joke, and it's like you're triggered to see the negative of the joke. Right. Then the positive. Like, I'm trying to make you laugh. Uh-huh. It's-- and before, I guess, it was like, oh, you're trying-- You're trying to see the worst in what I'm saying. Right. Well, you have said the words about me and X's directly, quote, saying, well, you choose to take the most negative perspective of everything I say. Yeah, it's like you know me. Why twist what you-- Yes. What would I mean by what I said? Yeah, well, the sad thing is, is I didn't know any of this either in the beginning. And then even as I have learned, I didn't know it enough to be able to teach it the way I am now, because I'm learning things in such an exponential kind of way that that now seems really easy to digest and to assimilate in everyday life and provide others with the education. But I wish, obviously, that either of us had known any of this, because it would hurt me so much when you would say that. Being called a negative person is something that I struggle with because of grandma, a mean person, somebody who doesn't know how to talk to people. Like, things like that, those-- anything related to those, and I cannot deal with it. Like, it happens and the transportation back to that feeling. Like, you know, I've been saying so much lately, and I am saying it intentionally, because I do want to drive the point home, that you may not know that it's happening because you're not transported directly back to the vision of a memory, but your body is transported back to how it felt when somebody who loved you betrayed you. And I find myself being so-- I'll use the word sensitive, but sensitive to even-- even just observations of the way I respond to things, because I'm like, OK, I never get into the comparison game with people about big T versus little T trauma, because listen, I'm especially learning now, we're all a little fucked up at the very least, because we've all got the same exact issues. Just, you know, I'm varying levels, but I'm very tender about it, because if you have-- and I'm sorry, I'm going to come right out and say this. I'm not saying anything I've been through is worse than anything, but what I am saying is, if you have not been in the hospital by two months old from the amount of neglect that you received, if you have not received physical abuse by the age of one, if you have not been sexually abused, along with all of those other things, by the time you're three, and then again, and then again, you don't get to fucking make a comment about how I respond to shit. If you've never gotten your fucking ass beat, and, you know, I said this in my book, my mother punched me, and I was six years old, like, repeatedly. So, people who know me know that, and yet they still make the commentary, and I'm like, OK, this is where I'm just going to release it, because I understand now why this bothers me so bad, because I just, I'm just getting that feeling again of I'm a mean person. You know, it's all the same, it's all the same wound, it just looks a little different, so I get a little confused, and now I'm like, OK. And, you know, especially with all the shadows of shame information, you know, I'm like, OK, that's all that is, that's all-- Pain and shame. Yeah, I'm like, OK. So, I am going to, though. I mean, the next time I get any sort of, and I don't care what anybody's intention is when they're saying it. If I get a single ounce of commentary about how I choose to respond, or I'm not going to say that we're choose, because most often, I haven't learned to manage that choice yet, so. But, like, how I respond to triggers I'm coming back with, have you gotten your ass beat, like, with a closed fist before the age of three? OK. Well, I guess you don't fucking understand, then, do you? OK, thank you. I mean, because, like, why are you even saying it in the first place? So, that's been my frustration of emotional vulnerability, giving this information to the people that I love. I mean, granted, let's be real. Ooh, see, I haven't even done Jason's word of the day, the last two episodes, damn it. But, that, what made me think about that is because I'm like, well, most of my inner circle isn't really listening, so that's cool. But, I'm trying to be vulnerable and say, like, hey, this is the real shit right here, and I'm learning how to say, OK, I know that's not what you meant. I know that, and I know exactly why it bothered. I'm not blaming you, I'm not anything. I'm just asking you to not do that anymore. That's all. The level of fucking resistance, bruh. I'm like, oh, I'm ingrained. I'm smart enough to know that some of that is my perception because I'm scared. I'm anticipating that reaction no matter what. So I get that, quit judging me. But, you know, it has been a little surprising at times in my life to hear people respond, but I just liken that to, if you want me to edit this out, then I will, but whenever we met, you know, we were both maybe just drinking a little too much. She knew how a little fun and our singleness. And, I remember you said it first. You were like, you know, I think maybe it was, you know, just maybe slow down a little bit on this drink. And I've been thinking about, you know, getting my shit together a little bit. I was like, well, you can get your shit together. I'm not getting my shit together. Do I fucking talk to me about not drinking? Damn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, go, go to AA, I don't care. But no, I'm drinking, I'll be at that bar. Remember how I'll never forget your face? You were like, really not the reaction I was expecting here. I kind of thought you were gonna like that idea, but all right, but that's what I kind of think happens whenever I'm expressing a feeling is it makes them feel afraid and it makes them feel sad and it makes them whatever. And if we're all used to shoving our feelings down with aggression, 'cause that's what it takes to shove a feeling that far is to be aggressive. And that's why I walk around in this, yeah, very tense, very angry, very aggressive, irritable, irritated at all times if I'm in that mode, you know? And that's why if that's where I am in that agitated, see the difference you get confused about when you're allowed to offer comfort by touch with me and when you aren't. So I think this might be a good one, this might be a good way to say it. If I'm tense from a pressure of a problem, but I'm like expressing it to you and I'm kind of crying even and I'm like emotional, but I'm not jaw clenched, whatever. - I'm not angry. - You can touch me then. If I'm in a place where I don't have a place for the energy that's flowing through my body to go and I'm struggling to not hit something because it literally feels like an electrical current going through my body, propelling things, like it's a very big force. So to not hit something and not because I've ever really been a person who punches walls or whatever. I mean, I have done that obviously, but really probably only like five times in my whole life. I mean, I don't do it 'cause I've always figured out something else to do usually, but it's a need to do it in that moment. So if you touch me or even get close enough to me because I think I'm like a magnetic field or something in that moment because it's like you're touching me if you get too close to me, I feel you. So it's just not good. So like I will hurt you because I'm running from a fucking bear. I'm trying to save myself. - I think I've learned, but like you're explaining that to me and necessarily know it, but I've known that sometimes you don't want a hug and sometimes you do. And so I've learned to like show, hey, I'm willing to hug you. - Right, right. - I feel like you would benefit from a hug and I want to. - Yeah. - But I've learned that sometimes you do not want it at all and can't accept it and won't and don't want it right. - But it's physical. It's like a feral cat who can't be touched because they've never had touch and it hurts to touch them. - But I guess I'm just saying that I offer it without not a lot of offering this. - Yeah, just like I do. - Yeah, you kind of like put your, yeah, you make your body language of like, hey, I'm open to a hug if you want that. - If that would help. - Yeah, and it's not at all helpful if I'm in the red because physically that's a different physical experience than whenever I'm in the yellow or even in the blue, you're just droopy and down. Of course you want to hug. That helps regulate your heart. You know, that's what co-regulation is is when with emotions you're leading the person through the emotion until they can do it themselves. But remember with Charlie, remember her heart rate was a little slow after she was born and they had us do skin to skin because your heartbeat can fix theirs sometimes. I think that still happens, you know? So like if I'm droopy, of course I want to like, just you are warm very literally. Your body's warm, it's like an actual comfort. Yellow can be tricky, you know? Maybe yellow is when it's good to rub my shoulders 'cause I'm bouncy, which means I'm tense, but I'm not trigger. So like, that's, you know, I'm just going through your normal everyday stress that mama can't deal with half the time. So I mean, I'm a little tense. - That's when rubbing your shoulders. - Yes, not a hug, but just rub my shoulders, help the tension. - Shoulder blades. - Yeah, and the red is just give me space. Like, I thought even words to soften it would help. I don't know yet if I'm at that place. I think it's just proximity. - I don't know that I've found anything. - Getting away from me probably is the best thing because yeah, it escalates very quickly. - Sometimes I even will just, there's something I'm thinking I should do. I'll start doing it. So it's like least I'm taking out the trash or sweeping the floor. Or even, yeah, that's probably the best is if I find things that, the things you normally kind of seem to do because you notice it more than me. You know, like a sweeping, you know, I a lot of times do the trash or whatever, but. - Right, like trying, like you're doing something to be productive 'cause it feels like you can't help me emotionally, but I can help you in this other way that I know help. - Or you can see me not thinking about myself, thinking about you, but not being in your bubble. - Yeah. - Like maybe I'm cleaning the car or something, you know. - Yeah, well that's a good way to frame that. I didn't realize that. I definitely experienced what you were doing a little differently than that. - Oh really? - Yeah, so that's cool to know. Okay, well, we're sitting in a hot car in Mississippi and I think we are over 30 minutes, is that? - I think we are good to go. I'm gonna say goodbye to the world. Should we do a word of the day for Jason? - Well, I'll show you how I do word of the day. - Let's see the back end of the bike. - Uh-huh, uh-huh. Look at you. - Look at me. - You're learning? - Is there something New Orleans? - New Orleans. - New Orleans. - New Orleans. - Hermitage or hermitage? - Hermitage. - Hermitage. From the same spelling as Old French from medieval Latin. Hermitorian, do you know about that? It is a dwelling, a hermit's dwelling. Yeah, that's not what I thought it was. - I probably won't be using that word a lot. - I bet I won't either. I bet that's not even on a word of the day, toilet paper. - Maybe as I pass by the cam and seeing a lot of, you know, well, hermit is by himself, so. - Yeah. - I feel like you're really finding that very often 'cause they usually kind of get together, you know, get some money and have a little party. - The hermitage too? - No, no, they're not hermitage. - I do. - They're like a group of that one. - Gypsies. - Are you having a good time on this vacation? - Yeah, it's a lot of fun, I love the beach. - Yes, we went to the beach today for the first time ever for me and the children. I have always been deathly afraid of sharks. And so, I'll tell you, episodes are a little wonky this week, although I really have been wanting to do something with Brian on here anyway, so that worked out really well. But, you know, I just, our schedule's a little crazy right now, so it's hard to figure out recording with someone else. So, you know, just, I hope y'all like this episode with Brian and we'll talk to you later. Bye, say bye, Brian. - Bye, everybody. (singing in foreign language) - Hey, hey, hey, what do you say? Listen. First and foremost, please make sure that you have provided this podcast with a five-star rating on whichever platform that you are listening. If you want to support the show, please rate, like, and share. Also, like, comment, and share on any social media posts that you see from me on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok. Please follow the podcast Facebook, emotionally unavailable podcast. You can shop my foot online, store, or schedule a one-on-one with me, emotionallyunavailablepodcast.org. I'm offering what I'm calling non-traditional counseling, astrology readings, and tarot readings, and self-publishing services. And thank you so much for listening to the emotionally unavailable podcast. (upbeat music) ♪ Emotionally unavailable ♪ - All right, I hope you like that combo with Brian and me, and I'll just see you on the next episode. And until next time, let's all just keep swimming. ♪ Emotionally unavailable ♪ - I-N-D-E-P-E, and cut.