Oh, you guys... I can't wait for you to meet Jenny Kempton, LMSW! This episode is dear to me so I hope that it helps you. <3
Emotionally Unavailable
Episode 25: Give Your Shame A Name
I like to be very open with people. Vulnerability brings connection together. - Kind of a crazy mind. - Oh no. - If you have young kids in a clean house, that lady is crazy and we're not playing. My limit was brain is like, how much that stuff could I possibly think about myself in like a 30-minute timeframe? Baby, your central nervous system hates you right now. Go do some stretching and deep breathing and get off the Diet Coke. - Mm-hmm. - You're like, oh I know. It's your, but you got to calm down. (upbeat music) - Welcome to Emotionally Unavailable, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of emotional availability and intimacy. I'm your host, Melissa Hepner, and I can't tell you how excited I am to have you join me on this journey of self-discovery and connection. Whether you're navigating the complexities of relationships or exploring your own emotional landscape, this podcast is here to inspire, empower, and entertain. So get cozy and let's explore the depths of human emotions together. - You guys, I am so excited for today's episode. I've been just like so excited for you to hear this because I had just learned some stuff about myself right before meeting today's guest. And so it was so cool for both of the conversations that I had that day to kind of revolve around the thing I had just learned. So I thought that was really cool. Today's guest is Jenny Kemper. She is a therapist in Yuma, Arizona, and she practices the finding peace method. That was developed by Mr. Troy Love, who is Jenny's boss, so that's super cool. And wanted to read you Jenny's bio on her website, and that is yumacounseling.com. And it says, "Jennifer Kempton, meet Jenny. She's not your average academic achiever. She's got a master's in social work from Arizona State University, and she's been on this knowledge quest since her bachelor's in child development in 2010. Jenny's story is powerful. Her healing journey was so intense it gave her a PhD in life's unexpected twists. And now she's on a mission to share her wisdom with the world. Her motto, learn, teach, serve, repeat. She's like the Indiana Jones of therapy, but with fewer snakes and more cozy couches. In her quest for emotional enlightenment, Jenny's journey has taken her from integrated healthcare settings to community mental health. She served people dealing with trauma, anxiety, and depression. Jenny is on a mission to help clients conquer their OCD related trauma. Jenny's true passion is the finding piece model. She's hosted many book and social groups and stopped the finding piece retreat. She's currently in the process of finalizing her finding piece certification. Jenny's therapy toolbox is like Mary Poppins bag, endless, and full of surprises. There's a lot more, I'll skip to the end. What truly sets Jenny apart is her gentle approach. She's all about her clients, offering them a cozy judgment free space where growth and healing can happen. So if you go to my website, that will be listed on there next to the books in merch. And just to tell you a little bit about the finding piece method, you can go to findingpeaceconsulting.com and learn about Troy and the book that he wrote, Finding Piece, a workbook on healing from loss, neglect, rejection, abandonment, betrayal, and abuse. They have a masterclass on this website that includes all kinds of modules, lessons, workbook, download to really work through all of those things. Oh, and they also have the Finding Piece podcast. So you should really, I think after you listen to this episode, you're gonna run to any of those things because hopefully you're gonna be able to identify a little bit of this in yourself, but I don't know, I thought that was really cool. I love this mission that they're on. And I had a really good week and on Friday, the day of the full moon in Capricorn I might add. Sometime around the full moon completion, actually, I received an email from the Zero Foundation and I was accepted as a symposium speaker, as a workshop speaker. So I'm gonna get a 90-minute session on September 25th from 9 to 10.30. And I'm so excited. I'm just so happy and I just feel so grateful to feel like I'm finally out of the dark part and then healing and ready to take the next steps and something else that I learned about yesterday morning that provided me with a lot of relief. So you all know I'm pretty into astrology and yesterday I was watching a gal on TikTok that I really like. Her name is Alexis, her last name's G-I-G-I. Anyway, she's really knowledgeable about astrology and yesterday she was teaching, or at least, I don't know when it was, but I came across the video yesterday. And she was educating about what's called your perfection year and each year on your birthday, your perfection year changes. And it's kind of like what you're supposed to work on, what you can expect to be dealing with that year. And when I looked mine up, I just left my perfection year, eight, like in the eighth house and it was in Scorpio. So about that is eighth house is all about like dealing with your psyche, the stuff, you know, healing old wounds, things like that. Scorpio is very emotional and can be dark depending on what context. So I was not surprised to see that and it provided me with a lot of relief 'cause I was like, okay, because I actually, you know, like I said, I had a really good week and I was so afraid because every time a negative thought would pop up, I would be scared that it would turn into something really negative again. And I just, I didn't think I had much left in terms of crying and shame to process. I didn't have the capacity to really like deal with that heaviness. It just felt so much lighter and I've just been so worried that I was gonna feel that heavy feeling again. So it felt amazing to know that that was all intentional or just a good confirmation, you know, everything's gonna be fine. And now I'm in my ninth year, which is just all about kind of stepping into like, it's, your ninth house is philosophy. And so this year we'll be spent really philosophing and having great conversations and focusing on expanding my little universe a little bit. So I'm excited about that. And I'm, man, I just, I'm so excited to be feeling better and to finally have let go of a lot of the fear I've been experiencing in the shame. And it has really been eye opening to learn all of this about myself. And now that I have taken this from my autopilot area of my brain and put it in the part of my brain that's like present, I am able to identify when this pops up and let me tell you something I do very much fear people having expectations of me. And truly that's probably why I didn't just jump right into a one-on-one practice because of my limiting beliefs. I'm okay with that because the way I have evolved in my thinking, I still at this time feel the most peace pursuing one-on-one sessions the way I am. And, you know, if I don't get one it's just one minute to be 'cause this is just how I'm doing it for now. And I feel really good about it. I'm okay with whatever happens with that piece of things because I know that the things I'm hoping for people to learn from me personally are happening on this podcast. So, I mean, obviously there's not like a real individualized approach on the podcast. And I would absolutely love to get to engage in the one-on-one stuff. But I'm not putting any pressure on myself about it because I know I'm taking baby steps right now. I've just come out of a really scary time. And, of course, the last couple of weeks weren't as bad as months before, but it was not good. And I just, so anyway, I was accepted as a symposium speaker, which is kind of a dream come true. So, that happened all on that same day and I just felt the most confirmation of this path. And I'm so relieved. And I'm just gonna keep working on this expectations thing and I'm gonna be really honest with the people I care about when I'm feeling that pop up because I know now that I have absolutely pushed people away and run as far as I could when I felt like they had expectations for me that I was too afraid that at some point I wasn't gonna be able to meet. When the expectations kind of first present, I'm not that scared. It's the thinking about like how long are they going to have like high expectations for me and how long this? And, you know, I just get really overwhelmed by it. So, I'm just glad to be able to identify when that's popping up now so I can tell it like, hey, we're just freaking out. No big. Anyway, I'm really happy for real today. I feel really happy and all week, I have just felt really happy. My business cards came in, really excited about that. Probably post a picture of that again 'cause I just posted one from my car the other day. I'm just really, really heaved. I feel really good and definitely in my power and I do have faith. Oh, can I speak in a faith? Jenny's a woman of faith, you know. And I, since she wasn't from my personal life, wanted to be very respectful of that. And, you know, because I know how some people feel about bad words, some people of faith don't think that that's a big deal but some people of faith do. Just like some people of faith don't think astrology is a big deal, some people of faith do. And here's the thing. The thing that I have like been too afraid to say but want to show up here as my most authentic self is that I also am super into tarot and, you know, I just, I know being raised in like a Southern Baptist strict environment. I was taught really like strongly against astrology and tarot and I just, I didn't, I don't care if people like judge me for that. What I care about is that then changing the way you feel about the things I've taught you because you're afraid that I'm some like dark spiritual person or something, you know, like the dark magic type stuff or that I'm, you know, just into the stuff that people raised in super religious atmospheres fear about those things. So anyway, I'm just gonna put it out there because I get to read at the Oracle in Moore on June 30th. I do not have any more details than that because I need to message them and ask them that he knows because it's a thing. It's a whole story. I'll tell you more about that later, but anyway, I just, I guess it's taken a lot to get here to tell people that and because I just, like I said, I don't want you to be afraid to talk to me or to listen to me if you're, if you have been taught to believe that those things are like demonic or whatever. I mean, I can, I respect you and your belief system and I would love if, if you could consider that possibly the fact that some people believe that to be demonic and other people don't might lend itself to the belief that there was a misinterpretation somewhere and where I kind of got with all of that, which is exactly opposite of what I was taught. So again, I'm not trying to talk you out of your beliefs, but I just kind of got to where I was like, well, these things, the ideas in these things give me peace and that's the only thing I can out of this life. And I think there's space to hold all beliefs if you want to. So anyway, I just wanted to be honest about that. So on my website, it says other woo woo services and I didn't want to say tarot. And I don't know if I'm going to change it just yet. We'll see, but I do want you to know that if you want that, that is a service that I offer. And happy to give discounts on that because I had a TikTok tarot reader do a quick little cheap reading the other day. And when I went to her website or directed me somewhere from TikTok, I don't remember, she said that she's committed to affordable tarot readings. And I was like, man, thank you for that. 'Cause some of these people charge a lot and they deserve to, that's fine. But you know, that's not in your budget. So I have for whatever service you are getting for a one-on-one with me, 30 minutes is $50 and an hour is $95. And I don't know that I would ever change those rates except for to give discounts. So happy to give a discount on the tarot readings, especially, like we'll call it a podcast discount. I don't know. So if you want a reading, you can book with me. Maybe I could give a code. I'll try to figure that out. Okay, well, I can hear people in the hallway and I'm about to get interrupted. So I hope that you are going to enjoy this episode with Ginny. She is an LMSW working on her LCSW under supervision. In Arizona, Troy Love is her boss. They seem amazing. Listen to the podcast and then go to their podcast and tell them to, you know, come to mind too. I don't know. All right, guys. - Jason, your word of the day is clandestine. Clint Destine describes something done secretly or in a private place or way. The wedding was a clandestine affair in Las Vegas. Planned Destine. Gonna give us sensitive content morning 'cause we do touch very, very briefly on some sensitive content. Ginny makes mention of having a friend who completed suicide. We don't go into any of those things. We just talk around it pretty much. But I just want to make sure people are aware of that. - I really do appreciate you and I hope you love today's episode. (upbeat music) ♪ Emotionally, I live in the bull ♪ - Quiet age. - How are you doing? - How are you today? - And okay, I just finished with the clients. I was just rushing in and then my supervisor was helping me with that. Just trying to figure out how to get the Google meets on there. So we're just like just coming down on that. - Yeah, yeah. I was like, we'll probably need a deep breath. Probably. 'Cause I know what these issues are like. I deal with them a lot and I try a lot. I cry a lot. - Yeah, yeah. Tech shoes stuff isn't in my forte. So I'm like, "Help, help me." - Well, yeah, and it's never the same issue. So that's where I'm like, okay, I can only learn so much in a short amount of time. Okay, like this is just ridiculous now to be hit with one issue after another. - Yeah. So just for the audience to know, I do not know you literally popped up in people I may know on Facebook. And I saw we had several mutual friends. So I figured it was a relative of Brian's and I don't know. I was just, I never do that. But I was like, click and like the only public thing you had was a video or something, a blog post maybe about your story. And I was like, okay, we need to talk. I just know, I just know already we need to talk. So I wanted to start with just you sharing whatever it is. You feel comfortable sharing about your story 'cause that was what you put on your blog post was very deep but it's a lot different to keep things to strangers. I mean, after you start talking you're gonna feel like you're just talking to me and that's the goal. I know it's different and people get nervous. Like I've been very surprised at how nervous people are to do a podcast where nobody even has to know who you are. 'Cause I'm a Jim and I, so I'm not really like that. I'm like, oh, anonymity and shine? Yes, please. I'm pretty talked to talk. So, you know, I've been on someone else's podcast and that solidified it for me 'cause I've been wanting to do one for years. I was like, oh yeah, we're doing this. We're doing this for sure. So I just wanna give you the opportunity to say whatever it is you are comfortable with. And also I don't really know a lot. I mean, I literally read that and was like, I got a vibe, but I don't know where it's like this. I wanna talk to you, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I like to be very open with people. Vulnerability brings connection. I'm a therapist. That's something that I believe helps people in the healing process. And that's why I chose to start sharing with my blog. That helped me as I was starting to go deep into my stuff. And at the time that was working through vein surgeries, I have a chronic illness where my veins break down and it was very intense for quite a while. So what did you read on there? 'Cause I'm like, I'm willing to share. Like, what did you-- Honestly, all I remember is that you chose mental health treatment. Sounded like some pretty intensive treatment. And you were pretty vulnerable in the struggle in choosing that help for yourself over maybe like family commitments or just whatever else we put ahead of taking care of ourselves, obviously. And I think that was probably the part that really resonated with me because I have a really heavy background with my family. And so I was like-- Hmm, I got that, huh? So that was probably the part that really pulled me to you, but just knowing that somebody found themselves in a space that is so dark and lonely and scary and just painful, I mean, I just felt like I could really feel your heart, you know? You were sharing the deepest parts of you. Thank you, yeah, that tends to be me. I like to share pretty deep. And that wasn't always me because I experienced a lot of shame, hide it, don't show anybody what's going on, you've got it together, you gotta be perfect, or people aren't gonna like you. So I do a lot of shame work, which is maybe a story for a different day. We'll have to see how much time we have here, but people who know me really well know that I talk about what we call the shadows of shame. Just what family and our society has taught us, and it's not us, and we put it outside of ourselves as if it's a person and an archetype. And so we have different ones and the work that I do, which is the finding piece work. And so those shadows of shame, which I didn't know they were at the time, were saying to me, Jenny, you can't show anybody what's going on, you can't show them that you're experiencing depression at this high of a level. And they got to the point where I did have suicide ideation, which like learning now, like that's the shame, the shadow of what we call the rebel. Yeah, and it's like, this is a way out. Like, this is so painful. How are you gonna deal with this? And come to find out, I had a really big loss wound. I also talked about attachment wounds. And the loss wound was just so heavy that it was like, we talk about it being like an ulcer, and it's so big that it just, it's not manageable. And I was putting salt in the wound instead of doing the actual healing work. And I got to this point where I did go to a therapist because it was do or die kind of. - Oh, absolutely, absolutely, I know exactly what you mean. - Yeah, the rock bottom point where one of my friends' husbands had completed suicide. And I didn't know how to handle it, not knowing I did the, it's the shame, but the rescue kind of thing. And I was like, oh man, my shame was like, you didn't show up enough. You have to like that martyr kind of shame. You, you know, if you had done X, Y, and Z, then that wouldn't have happened. - Oh, sure, how we control our environment. - Yeah, and that's what I had kind of learned as a child from my experiences. And that's kind of where it started. And I was at the point, I was so scared to go to therapy. I thought, oh my gosh, if I tell people that I have suicidal thoughts, let's take away my kids. Those are the shame thoughts. They'll take away your kids. Like, and I was just to the point where it's not safe for me. And I need this help so badly. And I was numbing for so long in different ways that people would just think, oh, chair house is so clean. Time to find out, I have OCD. Like that kind of stuff. - I think house is the other kind of a crazy mind. - Oh, if you have young kids in a clean house, that lady is crazy and we're not right. - Yeah, yeah. And so there were just a lot of different things there. And it had just built up from lots of years of surgery and trauma. I avoided going to a trauma therapist when I moved here. I live in Yuma, Arizona. And I'd seen a trauma therapist kind of pop up. And I thought trauma therapy, I don't know, have trauma. Like, I don't know. - No one thinks they have trauma, you know, yeah. - And now I'm a trauma therapist, so. - Isn't that funny? - Yeah. - Were you a therapist at the time or no? - Oh, no. Oh, no. - So this is my job, huh? - Mm-hmm, yeah. I, yeah, my family didn't do therapy. We just talked to our friends and that that's important. - Yeah, yeah, like that doesn't happen denial 'cause one of my favorites back when. But yeah, that's kind of how it all started. Just going to therapy, learning the different methods, going to some retreat. Like the finding piece retreat. And that's the work that I do. And I work with the person who created that method. My supervisor, his name's Troy Love. And so that's kind of, if anybody wants to look at that work. - Yeah, I'm gonna look at it. - That's what I see. - I've just started to unravel my shame because I didn't know I had so much. And I'm kind of just coming out of that really dark hole for myself. So rock bottom is not a joke. It's a very real place and it's very scary because it's unknown and unfamiliar and you feel and think things that are so foreign in that place because you're not getting it out. - Mm-hmm. It's like how any kind of fungi grows when you're not taken care of it. If you don't dress, it's getting a big black and ugly. And inside of my head, that's where I got. Was very big and very dark and very ugly to myself. And I started, I was just talking to somebody else earlier about this because it's so new. This new like, I've learned something really big and revealing about myself every day. It feels like for about five months. And so I've been on this path of releasing things that are so harmful to me like a job or a career or whatever. And just kind of finding my way out and learning like new priorities. If you know, my whole life's just been some evolution of growth and you know, whatever. I'm a very serious person. I'm a very not serious person too, but I take things very seriously. All my conversations are serious. I'm very intellectual and I intellectualize every feeling I have and I just realized yesterday. So now I'm talking about it all the time 'cause I was like, wow, that was really life shattering there. Wow, my whole thing is, you know, I experience every feeling like through my chest because I'm almost embarrassed to continue to admit this out loud because I feel so much imposter syndrome because I'm an LCSW and I'm supposed to know this stuff, you know? And I do it intellectually. Yeah, put myself in an emotional place. My toolbox was lost in the dark and I could not find a flashlight. I mean, all the lights were off and I had nothing at my disposal anymore. And finally, that's how this podcast kind of came about was 'cause I was like, I'm real emotionally unavailable. I think I heard the term and I was like, I don't even know what that means. What does that mean? And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's me actually. But I, you know, all the trauma dumping and all the trauma bonding, I really felt like was attachment and love and real, but, but what I learned was I was using my body and now I know why I'm in so much pain. And I knew, but I didn't know, I knew some of this, but I realized just today, anytime a feeling even starts to well, I use my body to tense and squash the hell out of it. Yeah, yeah, not know that about myself until yesterday because, you know, when you start to like wanna be something different, your brain's like, wait, remember how you said you didn't want it? I cried, well, that's happening. And so I was very clued in all of it. And it's because I was in a really bad thought spiral. And I was like, man, yesterday was my birthday and my birthday's kind of touching. So I was like, man, I really didn't want another three hour crying spell. So gonna have to figure out how to get out of my head real quick. And I was like, feel your thinking stop. What are you feeling? I was like, oh, I'm disappointed. And I didn't wanna admit that because I felt really guilty. And then when I dug further, I was like, I feel shay. Because I'm not grateful enough and I'm a brat and I'm all the things I was told as a child. And I'm like, okay, well, that's not my voice 'cause I didn't know those things are true. So okay, great glad we found another way for our dead grandmother to talk to us negatively. You know what I mean? - Yeah, so glad. I'm glad I realized where that was coming from and it was another way that she was still talking negatively to me, but I was like, wow. Okay, no wonder, no wonder we are all suffering because this is very hard work. And it's not something I think that you know how to teach even if you haven't felt it because it is a very extreme. It is, I mean, hello, when we're talking ideation, people don't get to that place because they're playing around with their feelings. And I'm like, it made me feel worse that I was feeling, how can I possibly send this message of hope and resilience which has been my entire life story and then kill myself? You know what I mean? Like, I felt horrible, it felt horrible because I was really gonna do it. So I was like, man, that's terrible. Who's gonna listen to anything I've ever said if I do that? You know, like thank God I had some of that because honestly, those were the only things that stopped it. So it's good that like a little bit of codependency and people fleasing was popping up there because I don't know what else would have stopped me, my kids, but it was all those things. But still it was like, wow. - That's so scary place to be. - It is scary. It's scary and you don't, it's so again unfamiliar. I didn't even have tools ever developed for that particular thing. I've just been focused on self-regulation for six years, you know, because I'm very dysregulated and that manifests pretty nasty sometimes, you know? And how do you wanna be that person? And when I started to be able to accept like, okay, I'm not an angry person, I'm a dysregulated person. And you know, it's not my fault that I didn't know that and it's not my fault that I responded the way I did because I didn't have information. Now I know and I'm doing better. And that's all you can do is know better and take that information and take tiny steps. I'm a person because of my background who tries really hard. I take new information and then I have to integrate it immediately and everything needs to be fixed right then. - Yeah, I hear you. - Really, I'm overwhelmed right now because I've just left a career and you know, starting a new field. Well, I'm freelancing, I'm like, I'm never gonna go back to any of that stuff again. So I'm like, this is all just whatever comes my way and I'd rather be homeless than to do what I was doing before. So we'll just see how that works out. But for a while, I was so miserable before that I was like, no fear stepping right out on faith because like could not be worse than it is right now. So couldn't even care. And then the school year ended and now I'm faced with the reality that I'm about to not have a paycheck. So, you know, I'm overwhelmed. I gotta get a lot of fun and just like today, I was just like, you know what though, driving yourself crazy and you don't have to and you really can be poor and that's okay. Like it's all temporary and you're gonna find your way and none of it really matters that much. And what can we do to find the most joy, peace and passion out of all of this? Like remember why you started this honey because it wasn't just for me, you know? Like there are so many people like us out there who feel like as women, as mothers, as wives, as friends, as siblings, as daughters, sons and all that too. But you know, I'm a woman so I can identify with you. But like we think that all of those roles or therapists, you know, or LCSW or whatever, you know, that all of those roles mean that we shouldn't be having any of this and that we can't tell people, you know, like we gotta figure this out. And obviously, you know, everyone's gonna go through something like this at some point in their life if they don't like a dress stuff. And when you're doing everything you can to avoid a feeling like squeezing it down, you're gonna get to rock, find a honey, that's where you go when you don't deal with stuff. - Yeah, yeah. It reminds me like as you're talking about that of like the body keeps the score and to the, yeah. - I really, yeah. - Yeah, like the, I've done trauma breath work, which helped me so that was one of my intense things that really helped get that trauma out of my body. That's kind of a newer thing that people are starting to do. But something that- - I felt effective for me. - Yeah, it's been very good for me. It actually helped me with some of that trauma that was stored I think from my vein stuff. I think of one of my friends who is a nurse and she said it's kind of like putting your hand in a memory foam mattress and then taking your hand out. Like your body remembers those things. And so it's like, okay. - Put it in college, you mean. - Yeah, I love that and I'll use that with my clients. And I also love talking about the trauma breath work when people are open to that. If they wanna try that out, we talk about how all mammals release their trauma. Like if a gazelle comes along and this lion's chasing it. And then we have like this video where the lion catches it and the animal looks like it's playing dead, but it's not playing dead. What it's happening is it's letting its trauma kind of like its heart starts to slow down. And then the lion wants something live to chase or whatever. So it's like, oh, it's dead and it puts it down and it leaves. And then a couple of minutes later, the gazelle gets up and starts shaking and then shakes off that trauma, which we don't do only captive mammals or humans do not do that. And so trauma breath work is a way that we can release our traumas. So there's working on that part. That was kind of the last thing. I mean, I've integrated that with different parts. I've done EMDR and that's helped to turn. - I'm considering getting certified in that actually. - Yeah, I did get certified like as soon as I finished school. There's parts where it's like, okay, like a certified trauma specialist or somatic specialist. I don't even know what the name of the thing is for it. I know somebody- - I think you can say somatic therapists. - Yeah, like I'm not gonna say that I'm that. But I have been trained like in the finding piece method that we do talk about like, where do you feel it in your body? We talk about it. - Yeah. - Yeah. So I'll go with my clients there in different ways. I'll be like, okay, you feel, I have these cards actually laid them out with a client today, especially when people are in crisis. And they have the different pictures of each emotion. There's, I don't know, there's like 50. And then I'll say, okay, which ones are you feeling? So it has pictures like artwork that looks like what people might experience or what this might look like. And they really like the visuals. And then it'll have words underneath like shame and somebody's covering their face. And then it'll have the descriptive words. They're like, this one, this one, this one. I'm like, all right, where do you feel that in your body? Oh, it's like in my chest and it's tight. And I'm like, okay, well, what texture would it be? Oh, it'd be hard or whatever they're saying or tense. And so I'm like, okay, just let yourself feel that. Like we're working on not running away from those feelings 'cause I do that too. I've told them that I didn't realize, like you're saying I ran away from those feelings. I'm like, oh, sadness, cool. Or like, oh, you know, anxiety. Oh yeah, I feel that all the time. And then I go on about my day, but then I didn't really process it. So letting it like, okay, I'm just gonna sit with this for, you know, usually just takes a couple minutes. - Yes. - Yeah. When I was like in grad school, my own therapist at the time was like, Jenny, do you like sit with your feelings? And I'm like, I don't. And I'm doing this work. And I've been in therapy for quite a while now. - Like, you know, I think about my feelings though. - I know, I'm like, I might acknowledge them or be like, if somebody asks me, or I'll do it like in a CBT type chart or the Finding Peace chart. And I'm like, oh yes, I experienced that in the sphere that intellectualizing kind of thing. - Yeah, that's so good at it. - Yeah, and then I'm like, okay, no, like, let's feel it. And that's painful and that's some work too. And the different level. And so I have my clients close their eyes and I'm like, all right. And we sit there for a couple of awkward minutes. Maybe I try to not, you know, I try to let it, like it's, it's gonna be awkward when we're starting. - It's awkward for the therapist too. - Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, especially when people are like in their anger and I'm like, okay, what's coming up for me if I have a hard time and they're like, I don't like sitting with this. And I'm like, you know what, I don't either. And I'm like watching the clock and I'm like, come on, I'm sitting here, you know. And then I'm like, but then I see them like kind of, it'll melt the anger melts into the sadness. And then I'm like, oh, we need it, yeah. - Yeah. And then they're able to work on that and process that. And then I see like this relaxed, like, I can't believe when people come in and crisis and then we work through a couple of emotions and they're like, oh my gosh. Like that just, you know, I'm like, if the thought comes up or, you know, shame thought or any kind of thoughts, you know, just like a cloud, like mindfulness, just let it go. And we're focusing on that emotion and where that is and it's what I feel through. So that's what I'm-- - I want to make a point about that because what people don't know, we're speaking, you know, our own language. - Yeah. - And people don't know is that. So I had an experience with this on a personal level where I decided, oh, I think maybe I don't feel things appropriately or something. And so I started my little journey or whatever. And then I realized, oh, I'm emotionally unavailable and what that means. And, you know, I started to talk about this earlier but got, you know, off task per usual. But I knew, okay, I clearly feel things deeply 'cause I know I'm emotional and I know I'm sensitive. I know I'm easily triggered, I'm very reactive because these were triggers we hadn't worked through yet. So I knew that about myself, but I didn't know every piece of that. Obviously, like I discussed just having no idea. Like something I complain about, about Brian is, you know, he's the oldest of all those darn children. And so very responsible, very, you know, like his emotional needs were not met as a child. So he's very dismissive, avoidant and does not acknowledge his stuff 'cause he doesn't even realize, obviously none of us do. But like, we've been talking a lot about that and he's like, oh, like the other night we were falling asleep and he's like, yeah, I've been thinking about it. I give every single way, like every relationship I've pushed people away and I was like, and do you feel like it was related to your expectation? Like they're being afraid of them having expectations for you and he was like, yeah, that's what it was. Because, you know, if you're left to deal with all that by yourself, then it's heavy and you don't trust yourself. But I just had a really hard time seeing it all in my picture. You know, like that's the point is that's what I'm telling you is that I was like, okay, well, I'm pretty emotional. Say, what am I doing wrong here? Like, I just don't understand what I'm gonna do. I knew that I liked to escape, I could choose. I know that I would literally do anything other than what I should do in terms of feeling. But so much of that was not a conscious thought and it was not until I started to do the work that I was like, oh, Jesus, no wonder, honey, no wonder. But for me, when I say I intellectualize, I'm clarifying for the audience. I just thought about stuff all the time. I'd be like, oh gosh, you know, I'm so upset about this. And then my brain is one that like, if I don't give it a limit, it's not, it's limitless. It's not gonna go, Brian has a limitless brain and his is like, how can I vent cool stuff? You know, and he just comes up with weird ideas. My limitless brain is like, how much that stuff could I possibly think about myself in like a 30 minute timeframe? I find it very strange because that's not who I am in my present self. I really work hard to embody all of the power that I know I have. And I think that I'm cognizant of when I've stepped out typically, like I know whenever I'm responding as my inner child and, you know, later I know, I can see that and I can course correct a little bit. But I did not know how to go from thinking to feeling. And for me, it was the work you're talking about. I literally had to say, all right, what am I feeling? And you know, most of us only know happy and sad or mad. So thankfully as a school counselor, I like had all those cards too. So I'd be like, okay, this, but I'm feeling for sure. That's the, yep, disappointed it's a big one. But then, okay, where do I feel it in my body? That's, I mean, literally, because I didn't know how else to feel, that was it. Like, 'cause if you ask me, I was mad all the time. - Yeah. - So like, and I knew I wasn't really mad but I didn't even know how to scrape that part off because we're stuck in the middle of a dysregulation and then your thoughts go crazy and it's all, that's all a part of being dysregulated. I mean, people think I'm an overthinker. Baby, your central nervous system hates you right now. Go do some stretching and deep breathing and get off the Diet Coke. - Mm-hmm. - Like, that's all I know is your, but you got to calm down. And I mean, I got to calm down. You know, we all need to calm down a little bit. But it is hard when you're not aware of any of that stuff. And I'm so shocked every day at what little people actually know about any of the things we were talking about. - Yeah. - Any of them. - I didn't know about any of this stuff when I started therapy. And I was just talking to a friend this morning about our podcast and I was just thinking, okay, what would people need to know? What do people experience on a regular day basis that I'm experiencing? And it is that like, I didn't have any of those tools and I was talking to her about like, I wish they would have taught this stuff in high school. My parents never taught me these things. Like, these are-- - How many of your parents had no clue? - Yeah, and it was, it's just like, yeah, that's, this is what we do in therapy. To me, it was a scary place. Like, oh my gosh, like, if people have problems, go to therapy. - There's no problem. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And I'm like, oh, no, like, we all have stuff and we are just trying to figure out how to manage it by ourselves and how well is that going for me, you know? Like, and so it's just, yeah. Like, that's where the anxiety and the depression comes, you know, the mutated emotion. So maybe it was sadness originally and then I'm dealing with this loss on top of loss, like with all these different things from like, my childhood that I don't even realize it kind of brushed off, which is the shame like, no, that's not that big a deal. - Right. - Like when all the died or so women so almost died. Like, yeah, that happened. That was bad, but you can get over it or whatever, like, or I just shoved it down and don't even remember it. So then by the time I get to the point where I'm going to therapy, I'm like, why do I feel this way? - I have no idea why I'm so sad. - Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's a process. I was thinking of, you're talking about where people are stuck in that, well, it's the polyvagal theory. - Yeah, yeah, the polyvagal theory. - Yeah. And I feel like you're talking about, can we just teach it? Yeah, like, I think it's kind of like some other methods, like dialectical behavioral therapy where we integrate that. And we don't have to be certified in it. - That's why I love dialectical. And if I were to classify myself, that I'm not going to, but, so I have my website set up and stuff, 'cause it's all, I've circled everything through kind of like the podcast. But what I'm going to do, I'm offering what I'm calling non-traditional counseling. I don't even want to call it that because I'm not going to do insurance and I don't want to be bound by diagnosis or any of the stuff. And I'm like, however that develops, I'm going to be just fine. Because I don't want to, I just don't want to be bound by stuff. And I don't know if this is an Oklahoma thing or if this is everywhere. But, you know, we had that, I don't even understand all of it 'cause I've chosen to, like, I'm like, oh, well, I have too many stressors. So that's probably not what I need. Something about, they created some medical database. I don't know if this is Oklahoma or federal, but you have to put all of your notes in this database and it's supposed to be helpful, like so that maybe people stop being mismedicated and, like, treated wrong or whatever. But it's supposed to just be, like, regular health, but then they threw mental health in on top of it and there's all these privacy issues and insurance. Insurance has now taken forever to reimburse. And I'm seeing, I'm a part of the website 'cause, like, all my therapist friends were like, well, you're going to start a practice at some point. So, like, you need to know this. And I was like, oh, that's just telling me right now. I'm not doing any of that. I'm going to have a virtual practice, and however it works out is just fine. 'Cause if it never happens, I'm okay with that, too, 'cause I have a very specific type of therapy that I want to do with people and it is not going to be, like, in a box. And I don't want to, like, if I call myself your therapist, I just, I don't know, I don't have a problem with that. It's just where I'm at in my life right now. Yeah, I don't need any of that. I just don't. I don't have the capacity. And I want to help others, and these podcasts will do that. So, if I can't get a one-on-one practice started, I just really don't care. I mean, I want to, but I'm not-- I hear all your struggles, yeah, that's-- Is that not? So, is this an Oklahoma thing? Do you know what I'm talking about? There's a lot of things with what we can cover, what we can't, and where we can go and having to do a diagnosis so that we can creep people. And so, there's, yeah, I mean-- That's my biggest issue, is that, for one-- Oh, this is such a controversial thing to say. I'm going to be very careful here, but I do not believe in all of the diagnoses in the DSM. I'll say that. And I mean, I can see you're taking a list of symptoms and you're giving it a name, and I feel that. I like that. But when I watch people take that label on and internalize it, and then they get stuck in it, I'm like, do you understand that that was just created to give something of vocabulary? It doesn't mean you are the same, man. And when you look at what a dysregulated nervous system looks like, all those ways, so many of these diagnoses sure sound like a dysregulated nervous system. So, I'm going to say, but I just, it's not that I don't believe that people have these things. I think we're over-diagnosing some of them. And like I said, unless you're doing the special care to explain why and what that can look like, and there's another side of this, like you can get on the other side. This is not a lifelong affliction. Do you know what I'm saying? And there are so many ways to manage those symptoms. And I don't know, I just feel like, well, I guess probably the truth is, I've just come across a lot of people who got, maybe they did a degree path that I question a bit. It's all I'm saying. - Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, there's just a lot of things to that. And so I'm very careful with that. And yeah, that's kind of a deep subject there. But it's something that I think we feel, and there's a lot of different controversy about that. We just try to get down to the heart of like- - Right. - What's going on? What's going on? - How could I help you, man? - Yeah, what do you need? What do you need? 'Cause I feel like I can get there with you if you can help me a little bit, you know? - Yeah, and I've been on that other side before. I think that that helps me to be able to show up for them a little bit more. I'm like, okay, so you're experiencing suicide ideation, you know, or like different numbing behaviors. People have so much shame about different numbing behaviors. - Oh, posh, for real. Like when you talk to people who label themselves as a sex addict, the pain in that. - Yeah, so much fun. - Pain and shame, like worse than any drug or alcoholic that I've ever met is the person who identifies as a sex addict. And I'm like, oh, babe. - Yeah, and there's so much shame. - Yeah, there's so much shame that comes with that one. That one's actually the first one that came to mind for me. And so when people, there's so much shame around that, how do we address that wound? Because it's like, ah, we gotta hide this, I haven't got anything, you know, kind of thing. And it's like, and then that's the numbing behavior. I'm like, hey, take off that bandage. What's underneath there? What's that real wound that's going on? Like, you know, like, there's some neglect, abandonment, abuse, betrayal, you know, rejection, loss. Like, what is going on here in my own journey where I was able to take that shame off and be like, hey, what's that there? Okay, like rejection. So I need some acceptance, you know, neglect. So I need somebody to show up for me and to have that attack and that loss. I need some assurance or like somebody to be there for me. If it's abandonment presence, the different things, betrayal, some trust, you know, abuse, then I need somebody who's going to show up for me. - Thank you. - Like, safety and respect my boundaries and different things like that. So, you know, that's kind of, that's the healing stuff there. And we have people talk about, what is the shame saying? And we'll have them talk, like I said, like it's a person and ask that shame, you know, what are you here for? I love that part. What are you here for? So like, my shame might be saying, Jenny, you need to show up perfect. Like, you can't let people know this and that. Okay, what are you there for? - Yeah, like, to help you be perfect, to help people like you. Oh, what wound are you trying to prevent me from experiencing? Oh, rejection. So I just have people listen. Sometimes they're like a little bit different and I'm like, yes, it is. - It is, but I'm so with you on this. - Yeah, because neuroplasticity is kind of like the pinnacle of all things for me right now. And I'm like, you can literally change the way your brain processes and stuff if you get there, you know? Did you come up with this? Is this part of your method? - This is a finding piece method. So yeah, you can listen to the finding piece book. And he does do coaching for how to teach these methods for coaches and therapists. And I'm actually doing it. I'm getting certified. I did the training for six months. So that's something there. - And make sure for you and make sure. - Yeah, just going to that retreat, like going back to kind of some of my wounds that like after my aunt died, who is my aunt, Carl, yeah. And I actually was not a her funeral because I was going to that retreat. And that was my number. - And that's probably what like pulled out me 'cause I loved Carl and I knew what you must have been experiencing, you know? - Yeah, and so that was kind of that loss like kind of there at the end. One of those attachment figures that I'm like, man, like this is so painful. And that was only two months after my friends husband had completed so far. (indistinct) So that was, yeah. - I thought four things. - Yeah. And so being able to go and learn about this work, I just remember coming back from that retreat and laying on my kitchen floor just on that tile. And I just remember like, you know, the sun's coming in through the kitchen window and I'm on this tile cold floor. And I'm like, hey, I gotta learn this stuff because something about it is saying, like this is going to help me with the healing. And I said to reach out to other people. So I like call a friend and I'm like, I'm in so much pain I'm sitting here on this floor. And I don't know what to do. And I don't feel safe with myself. And so she just talked to me and I just kept on going to therapy and working through it. And, you know, I have so many different stories. - Well, I know that you like actually have a schedule. I don't right now. But yeah, we'll wrap it up. I would love to speak again sometime soon if you're open to that. This is a great like, I believe in your mission and I would like to help you with that because boy, shame, wow. The center of that has created so many problems for me that I didn't even know it was the center of. And I should have, 'cause I'm learning that I identify very well in others what I must hate about myself. - We're at that part of the journey also, great, love it. Brian's, I'm sure, very happy. - That's hard for my husband too. I mean, it's just kind of, well, yeah, like poor guy, like he went through a lot, but that's my own shame. He's like, it helped me learn and it helped me grow. - But it does, it does help them. - Yeah, it helps both of us grow in ways that we needed to and no, we didn't love that part of that journey, but it helped us grow stronger. So that's like individually and together and it's hard. But yeah, like it was meant to be, you know? - I guess I do have one final thing because I wanted to say this really bad earlier and forgot. Thank you for saying that one of the biggest reasons, it was so hard for you to get help at first, was being afraid that you would lose custody of your kids because I did not know how common of a thought that is and especially, I need women to know that it doesn't matter if your spouse has told you that they will use your mental health diagnoses against you, when you're leaving them, they can't. So unless you're a danger to that child, you have nothing to worry about and please do not let a fear of losing your children be the thing that doesn't get you help because no one's taking your babies away because you told the truth, okay? Nobody's taking your babies and for me, why that hit me so hard is because of, with Jake, my middle one and then Charlie the youngest, both of them I had post-partum depression. I had that with all my kids, so I get to go. I'm at first with Charlie, where he was a idiot with Jake, it was immediate and I knew it, I knew what it was immediately and I was scared because I didn't want anyone to think, I wanted to hurt him and I didn't. I mean, I had mana, but that way I'd be happy to say it, but it didn't, but I was too afraid to say no, but I want to do a lot of other stuff that's probably not what you should be wanting to do. You know, I don't want to hurt him, but I do want to hurt myself a lot. So, I could not tell anyone, I could not, I would think about, I couldn't even tell his dad, I could not tell anybody because he was born around the time of some really big mamas doing stuff to babies things. And I was like, thank you so much for that because now I really can't tell anybody that I'm suffering so badly. And I did not stop suffering for a long time and so when you said that, I was like, ah, so I want mamas to know no one's taken your kids because you're having these thoughts. That's, they want to know that so that they can help you. And even if you are having thoughts of hurting your kid, that's okay, I mean, your brain does that. So it's okay that you feel that. Just go tell somebody, just like you told somebody, I don't feel safe with myself. I've had to do that very recently even where I say, I'm not safe if you leave me here alone, I'm not safe. So I need you to stay and I need you to talk to me 'cause I can't get out of my head otherwise today. - Right. And that's where like I was talking about the shadows of shame where I learned that's not what I want. That's not who I am. That is a thought mechanism created by society. I hear that and I'm like, thanks for trying to help me and give it some gratitude because it's trying to help me but that's not helping me. You know, I asked what are you here for to help you escape, help you, you know, okay, well, thanks but that's not helping and you can go. And then we acknowledge the truth. And I'm enough, I'm a being of light and truth like whatever our belief system is. Like that's who I am. - I am the right day I am, yeah. - And then like I'm worthy of love and belonging. Like I, you know, all those different things I'll have my clients acknowledge that. We do the somatic work, I wanted to bring that up and we'll say, okay, where do you feel that in your body? I feel it in my heart or wherever. It's warm and, you know, where it's light and airy and I'm like, hey, breathe that into the rest of your body. Feel that. And so that's giving it a different imprint on your body and saying, this is me. Those aren't me. That's not a part of me. That's not who I am. - Right. - You're able to dismiss it. So that it's like, yeah, this, like Renee Brown, famous shame. - Oh, I know Renee Brown is that. - Yeah, she's like, you were talking about it's like, shame is like, if we hide it in the corner, it's like that mold or whatever and it'll grow. But if we shine light on it, which is the truth, then we're able to like diminish that. And then we go and get our needs met. We go and talk to somebody, you know, and they help us have acceptance like, hey, you're, you know, or sure it's like, you're okay, like, this is hard. I'm gonna be here for you. You're enough, you know? And that's like where we can sit with that. And I start to feel like, okay. I'm enough. And yeah, no. Anyway, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I'd love to have a chat with you. - You have my calendar, you just got it. Like my interest, I, I mean, now we do, we have so much more to talk about. - Mm-hmm, yeah, I feel like we're gonna have a little mini series at least. - I know, I feel like we tapped the surface. And I'm like, oh, we didn't even get where down-- - I know. - But you'd be surprised. And just so you know for clients, a friend of mine that I was recording with earlier, she said so much of what you said, but not in their fifth language. And she said what she heard was, when you're having those things and it's shame or whatever else, because some people have a hard time understanding that feelings and thoughts are not fact, just because you're capable of feeling it or thinking it doesn't mean it's true. So she said that she was taught, that's just your roommate. Like that's just what your roommate says. But like, you don't have to listen to your roommate. They don't know about you. And I was like, her son, your vicarish. You're gonna be looking for this. - Yeah. - You said it, I'm like, today's the best day ever. I've got two recordings about all the things I love to talk about and this is just amazing. So thank you. - Yeah, thank you so much. I love talking with you and hope you have a good day. Thank you. - And you're gorgeous, by the way. - Oh, thank you. You're so beautiful yourself. So thank you. - I love them serious. - Okay, I will. We'll get some more stuff in. Bye. (electronic music) - Hey, hey, hey, what do you say? Listen. First and foremost, please make sure that you have provided this podcast with a five-star rating on whichever platform that you are listening. If you want to support the show, please rate, like, and share. Also like, comment, and share on any social media posts that you see from me on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok. Please follow the podcast Facebook, emotionally unavailable podcast. You can shop my foot online, store, or schedule a one-on-one with me, emotionallyunavailablepodcast.org. I'm offering what I'm calling non-traditional counseling, astrology readings, and tarot readings, and self-publishing services. And thank you so much for listening to the emotionally unavailable podcast. (electronic music) ♪ Emotionally unavailable ♪ - All right, what did you think? ♪ Did you laugh, Ginny, as much as I do ♪ - I thought that was such an awesome discussion. I'm very much looking forward to finding out more about the finding peace method, using personification with your shame, all of the things. So I don't want to keep you guys too much longer. So remember, you can find Ginny at umacounselingservices.com. I will put all of that on my website at emotionallyunavailablepodcast.org. I will also make sure to post that whenever I post the episode. On social media, and just remind you, if you want a one-on-one with me, or any sort of non-traditional counseling, or astrology reading, or tarot reading, whatever, you can also book that on my website. And hope some of you will register for the zero symposium to see me. And, you know, I just can't wait to have more. Inspiring conversations. So I appreciate your time and your support, and you listening to this podcast. And until next time, let's all just keep swimming. ♪ Emotionally unavailable ♪ ♪ I-N-D-E-P-E ♪