In this episode, Agnieszka talks with Peter Robbins about his fascinating, decades-long journey in the world of trading. He shares what got him started, the realities of the trading world, including how to recognize and avoid the risk that many new traders face. They discuss everything from his inspiration to start trading, how to keep the motivation going, and what he would do if he had to stop trading.
Peter also shares his tips on managing expectations, gathering experience and wisdom, and managing the fear of missing out, or FOMO. You’ll hear expert opinions about what you need to take into account when you want to trade for a living. Let Peter’s story and his wisdom help you find your way in your own journey as a trader.
About Peter Robbins
Peter Robbins has been on a trading journey for over forty years. Over this period, he has experienced numerous market cycles and learned many lessons. From day trading futures, to swing trading stocks and options, to trend trading ETFs - Peter's style of trading has evolved over the years. He continues to learn along the way and adapt to the ever-changing market environment, whilst modifying his personal trading style and risk profile.
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Transcript
Agnieszka 0:15
I am Agnieszka Wood. And on today's show, I am very excited to introduce my special guest, Peter Robbins. Peter has been a trader for over 45 years. And as you can imagine, over such a long period of time, he has learned many valuable lessons. At this point, Peter has over 120,000 followers on Twitter and he's sharing his insight there on a daily basis. So, if you want to get some of his wisdom, make sure you click on the link in the description and follow him. I asked Peter to join me today to discuss his point of view on the topic that most traders are wondering about all the time. Will I ever make it? Welcome to episode number two, the “made it” day. Hi Peter, and welcome to the Confidence in Trading podcast.
Peter 1:09
Also nice to see you again, Agnieszka. I'm excited that you've started this podcast to discuss a lot of the issues around trader psychology and critical point-a very critical component to trader successes, as we both know, and I'm honored to be invited as a guest and look forward to the conversation, so thank you.
Agnieszka 1:29
Thank you so much for being here. I always enjoy talking to you. And we do that on a regular basis. I remember when we met last year, it was actually around that period that we met for the first time and we did a class together. You were my guest at my master class a year ago. And since then, we've been in touch and I always, always enjoyed the conversation. So, I am absolutely thrilled to have you here on my brand-new podcast. So, let's get right into it. Most traders, most aspiring traders begin their journey with very high hopes and a high level of confidence. Despite the statistics showing that most traders fail to achieve success, just nobody seems to be discouraged. The success seems imminent, until the trading losses start to chip away at the confidence and the emotions make achieving consistent profit, a sort of Sisyphean task. That's where the doubt creeps in. And most traders begin to question their abilities in themselves; will I ever make it? I'm talking to many traders on a daily basis. And it seems that there is this idea of the day when the things will suddenly click and trading becomes effortless. When the money streams to your account and all trouble is a matter of the past. I'm very curious, Peter, if you have ever had the same idea when you were at the point of your trading journey where things got rough? Have you ever thought that there will be this one point in time where, when from one to another day, things will suddenly change? And what was the reality?
Peter 3:17
Well, I think you know, learning to trade or invest whatever you want to call it is, it's like learning any other skill, right? And unfortunately, you know, out there in the, out there in social media, people that are exposed to the, you know, being introduced to trading, or many people believe or are sold that there is no learning curve, right? You just have to jump in and you're gonna be successful. Right? And that's, you know, they expect it to be very simple. And that, you know, the fortune awaits you just by opening an account and pushing a few buttons. Right? So, you know, well, coming back to myself, the reality is, yes, I've been on this journey for 40 plus years, and continuously learning something new, you're always gonna go through different ups and downs of your own experience. Right? But when you're learning something new, you know, it takes time, right? And I think a lot of people come to the game or come to the business with very unrealistic expectations. Right? And so they, they're waiting for this aha moment. For my personal thing, did I ever think I was going to be a time when I would make it? You always hope you'll hit that point. But I think when I started, and we'll talk about my journey a little bit in a second, but you know, I have very clear expectations that this is a business. This is something you’ve got to take your time to learn. And like anything else over you know, it will take time and it'll click right? So, whether you're learning to drive, play an instrument, whatever you do, normally people come to those, learning those things with the clear expectations, right? They know they gotta learn this; let’s talk piano. You gotta learn the scales and then eventually you learn chords, and eventually, at some day, you may be able to play Mozart. Right? Whereas, with trading, you can start the game and people immediately try to play Mozart. And, you know, again, it's how you approach the business and the expectations. And see that journey and learning curve, right?
Agnieszka 5:28
Yeah, because it's so interesting, like the statistics are actually staggering, right, that it's over 90% of traders are not going to “make it”, if you will. I had that myself, like, but I will be different. Do you see that from other traders that like maybe the ambition, is that the ambition that they have? Or does… is this day of “I make it” keeps them motivated? What do you think it is?
Peter 5:57
Well, I think a lot of people come to trading as already professionals as well, right? So, there's this group of very intelligent people, they've had a career that they've been very successful at, and they just think this is just another business, right? Then I'm gonna learn it, I'm gonna be expert at it, and they're already well educated, possibly, they already have been successful in other endeavors in their life, right? And then all of a sudden, the reality of trading is something completely different to them. Right? And, you know, I think whenever you're dealing with something where money is involved… {laughs} And money, where there's no, people did not put constraints on themselves when they learn, right, so, you can basically do anything you want, and people don't understand the risks involved. And that it is a journey, and you’ve got to start slowly, and you’ve got to build up your experience, and you’ve got to challenge, you’ve got to deal with these, you're talking about the different challenges you face as a trader, right? So, it's like any other business, there's, there's all the things you’ve got to deal with, right, the administration, setting up an account, having capital, you know, making decisions. And all of that is hard enough, like you got to learn that as a new trader, but you've also got this opportunity to do whatever you want, right? And you can do anything. And if you don't understand or come to the game, come to the business with an understanding of what those risks are, it's very easy to make decisions that can either wipe you out or take or make you go back, right, one step forward, two steps back, instead of let's just take one step at a time until we get to our, to our… What did you call it or “made it”? You know, the made–
Agnieszka 7:37
Yeah, the “made it” day.
Peter 7:39
The “made it” day, right? So, the problem is you can… And over time as well, you can feel like I've “made it”. How many people during this late last bull market thought they “made it” after one month of trading, right? They started trading, it's like, oh, this is easy, I understand this, I'm making lots of money. And then they realize awful quickly, okay, I might have “made it” for a month or two. But, you know, I didn't really understand. You know, and that's, again, part of that learning, right, that you go through?
Agnieszka 8:05
Right. And, you know, it's like, it's so very interesting what you, what you said about how people step into it, and the fact that they can do what they want, because there is really nobody else telling them, okay, you should not be doing that, right? Because it's just them on the computer. So, in fact, the fact that they don't have the limitations, kind of brings them into trouble. Plus, of course, they trade, not just for money, they also trade the money. So, the money is just like right there like this carrot on the stick, so to say, right? Becoming a total frustration for, the source of frustration for a lot of people.
Peter 8:45
Or, I use an example of learning to drive a car, right? So, it's very structured, right, you start off by going up and down your driveway. And it's all about being safe, right? So, initially, you just stay off of the roads. And then eventually you do testing to make sure you understand the fundamentals of it. And then they finally allow you to go out on the road, but you have to be with someone else who's watching you and making sure that you're safe. And then, then you do another test to make sure you've reached a certain level and then eventually you're allowed to go on the highway where maybe the risk is the highest. But in trading, you can literally start the car and be–
Agnieszka 9:22
And just drive.
Peter 9:24
–On the highway immediately. Right?
Agnieszka 9:30
That's so good.
Peter 9:31
And so many, so many people they don't even… Like everyone knows the risks of driving, right? It's self-evident, right? But something like trading, especially a lot of these young new traders, or new people interested in trading. There’s just so, so much misinformation online, right? So, they're basically told well, you can day trade, quit your job, you can be making a million in no time, etc. And no one is telling them the reality right and those hard facts. You know, you don't sell courses by being real, right? Because no one's going to be interested to hear that, right? It's, but it's very easy to sell someone on something that and they have no concern for the risks that these people are taking and the devastation that's being caused by that. Right?
Agnieszka 10:10
Yeah, and the devastation is that we're not only talking about financial devastation, but I mean, I see it every day that you know, when that financial devastation takes longer, or just simply the frustration, the health, the family life suffers, there is really so much more to it. When you're making that parallel to a car, or learning to drive a car—I don't know if this is also in the U.S. But that just popped into my mind. Do you know that when I did my driver's license in Poland, back then, a long time ago, you know that the cars that we are actually driving that we are learning on, the instructor has an extra brake pedal? Is that also here in the US?
Peter 10:52
Yeah, if you, if you take, well, just, just a reminder, I'm in Canada, so but–
Agnieszka 10:58
That’s true.
Peter 10:59
–in Canada, and I assume in the US, too, if you're taking a driving course, with an instructor that has a vehicle, yeah, they have a brake on their side. So, they can, they can monitor you, they can watch you and they can, you know, put a stop in if they need it. Right? And, and it's the same thing with a trader, right? If most of them–
Agnieszka 11:17
Yeah, that would be helpful.
Peter 11:18
Yeah, no one, no one has a mentor, if you don't have a mentor, you don't have anyone that's experienced. You know, it would be nice if there was a mandatory stop that protected you, or mandatory limits to the size that you could put on. And again, like, I know, for myself, when I talk about new traders and how I would approach trading, if I was to do it over again, I would start off with one or two instruments that are not too volatile, I'd be trading small size relative to me, to what I, what I hopefully will get to, and just like driving, right? You do, you do your drive around on the side streets until you get comfortable. And then you eventually get bigger in size and as you gain skills and experience.
Agnieszka 11:59
Yeah, totally. That's a very good, very good metaphor. So, for everyone who is listening, just think about how you drive. And that, you know, most of the time you do stop at the traffic lights, right? You do avoid the risk, you're not exposing yourself on purpose to get in trouble. So, try to do that in trading too. Just simply managing your risk and thinking about the consequences of every action you're taking. Peter, let's talk about your trading journey. How did it evolve throughout, throughout the years?
Peter 12:37
Yeah, and like, you're talking about you're learning to drive? Well, my learning to trade, this goes back many, many years too. It's hard to even remember back that far. But I started when I was 15 years old. I always had a passion for investing trading. I wouldn't call it trading back then because most people didn't trade, right? It was you got to imagine at that time, you know, there was all these boutique brokerage firms around, the commissions were unbelievable. There were no computers, there was no instantaneous. If you called your broker with an order, you might find out an hour later what your fill was. And, and then the commissions were, you know, especially if you're a small trader, you literally were trading to pay the brokerage commissions, right? Unless you're, unless you're really lucky. And back then again, it's—I personally was very interested in business, I was interested in trading. I live in Canada, like I said, and Canada is very resource-based. So, there's lots of penny shares and lots of penny stocks back then and all these little brokerage firms, they had these newsletters that went out and talked about, you know, it was the same thing, it was just a different type of pump and dump, right? Instead of right, instead of on computers, they did it by newsletter. And those newsletters, again, talk about how things have changed, they would come out every two weeks, right? As opposed to every five seconds, every second on the internet now you can find something new, right? So, but again, back then when I started I was more interested in business and interested in the investment field. And but again, I opened up an account when I was 15, very naive. Again, just like most traders, they start off driving fast before they even know how to drive, right? But again, I was, I was interested in business and willing to learn and, and no computers, no internet. There's very little even material on, there was material on investing, but it was more business related and fundamentally based, right? Technical Analysis back then was thought of as a joke, like if anyone, each of the brokerage boutiques, they might have some crazy guy in the back that was drawing charts and they kind of maybe would talk to him every once a while, but it wasn't, it wasn't serious. But again over time, you know more materials came out and obviously very different today than what it was back then. And so, when I graduated highschool, I went into university studying business, I was a CPA as well. So, I'm a professional accountant. But for some reason, I was never really interested in the fundamental side of investing, I was interested in learning technicals and being more of a trader, right? I had to sort of wait up, wait for the technology to catch up with what I wanted to do.
Agnieszka 15:10
You were too early.
Peter 15:13
But even during university, I was, I would go into different brokerage firms and meet different people that were involved. And my real goal was to go into the investment business, right? Not be a trader, back then; it was more to be in the industry. But I happened to graduate at a year when there was a major Bear Market.
Agnieszka 15:33
So, it wasn't a good time either.
Peter 15:34
So, there was a major Bear Market, as well as at the time, all of the individual boutiques, brokerage boutiques were consolidating. So, there was a major change in the whole industry, right? So, literally, there was no jobs available. But I was lucky enough to land a job in a large insurance, the largest insurance company in Canada, and it was in the corporate investment office. So, it was one of these fluke jobs I was exposed... And again, this is before personal computers, or just when personal computers were coming out. So, they still had the, sort of the ticker tape in the mailroom that you could go and go and watch. But I was exposed to all of the trading that was going on in that insurance company. Right? So, it was a really great education for me… So, again, I was, again, more interested in investment sites. I had my own accounts, I was saving money, I was putting it into different investments. And back then, just like now, there's always the latest guru, right? Like, who's the, who's the hot guy? There was a fellow in Canada that was writing books on, on trading and how to make a million and all these sort of things. So, I was, I was following this and following, you know, different techniques. And then, when I was working, I ended up reading a book called Trading Chaos by Bill Williams. And that was the first time where something really clicked with me, like this really makes sense. And he really approached not only having a trading strategy, but also was the first time really exposed to the psychological side of things, right? And really understanding the impact of that and how you need to focus on that aspect of it to really be successful. Right? So, anyway, I ended up, when I ended up leaving the insurance industry to start my own company with a partner in the real estate business, right? Because, like I said, my goal was never to be… to trade for a living. My goal was to learn trading and have that as a supplement.
Agnieszka 17:29
Okay, so that was your initial idea. In general, you didn't… Okay, gotcha.
Peter 17:34
Well, my first idea was to be into business, and then I couldn’t get into business. And then as I evolved, I thought, you know, times change, and your life changes in different interests and things go so. But it's kind of ironic, or it's kind of funny… I'm the opposite of most people, most people have a job and they want to become a full-time trader. I was, I always wanted to have a career in different things, I was more, you know, you could make money as an entrepreneur, but interested in trading on the side. And what ended up happening was that around this, this was another, again, one of the advantages of, of age is like gone through multiple cycles, and you'll learn something new with each cycle, and there happened to be a real estate downturn at this time. So, I was kind of forced to what do I do? Do I go get another job? Or do I… So, we were sort of holding on to some real estate on the side, but it wasn't economic to build it out. So, we had a waiting period. So, I saw… then I went and studied with Bill Williams down in Texas city and so that he was a Futures Trader. So, we were trading commodities and trading, and I had a couple of business partners where we also attract, took on some money to trade other people's money, which is a whole other psychological–
Agnieszka 18:43
Oh yeah, I bet.
Peter 18:45
–psychological thing, right? So, I did that for a while. And then also, I was getting married at the time and had a couple of children and it just so happens at one point, everyone took their money out of this, the business we were running, and for whatever reason, everyone had some personal situations, right? So, again, and this is another reality of how much can you make, and how much capital you need to do that, right? So, earning a living trading is something that requires capital, that requires commitment and requires so many different things. So, again, my personal situation at the time, I ended up then going and having another career and but continuously traded and over this time, you know traded many different styles and all every instrument you can imagine, some with my own funds, some trading other people's funds. I day-traded the S&P or day-traded commodities during that period of time. and now have evolved into a Trend Trader and a Swing Trader, because I do, because I do have a full-time job. But that's some of my experience there.
Agnieszka 19:52
That’s so fascinating how many different phases you went through, and what I wanted to ask you is, the decisions that you were making, whether you swing trade, whether you day trade, what instrument you trade, how did you make those decisions? Was it wasn't because you were struggling with one and you went to another? Because, the reason why I'm asking is a lot of times you see that traders change how they trade and, for example, if they cannot make consistent profit with Day Trading, they will say, oh, this doesn't work, I'm gonna switch to Swing Trading, it's gonna be better. Or the stocks don't work, I'll go Options, because I heard some guy made a million with Options, right? What was your motivation to change? And do you think it is easier to make it one or the other way? Or is it really not about what you trade?
Peter 20:40
Well, you know, the reality is many people do flip-flop from one style to another, thinking that it is the strategy that will make the difference for them. Right? And like you just said, a lot of times, it's either they haven't tackled the psychological aspect of it. Or it could also be that they haven't found the style that works for them, right? So, it is critical, and you will hear this from someone serious, so you got to find a style that fits your personality, but also has to fit your lifestyle, your financial expectations. And like you say, there's so many different styles out there, right? I always teach people or tell people that if you're interested in trading, or you think you are, first study at a number of different styles. And just like me with when I read Trading Chaos, it just spoke to me, you know what I mean? This is like, okay, this makes sense. And I know you'll talk to people, a lot of people trade sort or invest using the CAN SLIM methodologies and other ones; it's very, very popular. And it's the same thing. You just read it, you understand it, that's something that I'm committed to, right? And then but, you know, again, you can some people scalp to chart five-minute charts. And then there's Long Term Trading, right? But you really got to ask yourself, why are you trading? And what's your time commitment? Does it want it to be a full-time career? Or is it a side hustle, to supplement other sources of income? What is your risk profile? What is your personal circumstances? Your personal lifestyle? Right? And a lot of people feel that this trading for a living is, I don't know what that means. It's an interesting thing that people think, you know, it's some, some great career, right? If you talk to many people that trade for a living, it is probably the hardest career you can pick. And it's a struggle, same thing. Do you have… Do you have children? Are you married? Do you have kids? You know, what are your financial obligations? How much capital do you have to commit? You know? And again, how much do you need to survive? Right? That just the reality, right? Especially on this learning curve, right? So, a lot of people are desperate, because they need the money to survive, they've committed to, you know, trying to trade for a living, and then when they're not making the money they need, then they're more likely to flip flop, but you know, they'll go to Options, or they go to Penny stocks, or they go to, you know, something that offers leverage. Like, I don't know how many times they talked to people that have $100, and they think they're gonna make a living trading Forex, right? With 400 times leverage, it's like, oh, yeah, you're, you're gonna have to put in $100 many, many times until you learn the lesson that's not the way to trade for a living, right?
Agnieszka 23:23
Yeah, it's almost like this trading for a living kind of at some point takes over your living and this is not what you want, right? Because, you know, if you cannot mentally disconnect from the need of money, and the need of money will always be there, no matter how much money you make today, because everyone has to pay their bills. Everyone has obligations, so the need for money will be there. But if you are, whether you have your own business, or are you trading, if you cannot disconnect from, from that and just focus on what you're actually supposed to do when you are trading and just concentrating on money, that I think it is very difficult to, to distantiate and take off that pressure from yourself. And who can really perform under too much pressure. And to have a bit, it's okay, right? Because it keeps you sharp. But if you're completely stressed out because you think you will lose money, that's not gonna really help you to trade. So, after so many years of trading, how do you feel about trading? Like, what place does trading have in your life because you do spend a lot of time, you know, you're on Twitter. I don't know how much time on Twitter you spend but you do help other traders. I know you do different interviews. A lot of people know you. So, they approach you. You never say no. Well, I don't know never… You never said no to me so far. But do you feel you “made it” in terms of trading? And what does that mean?
Peter 24:55
Right. So, to me making it means, well, let me, let me back up for a sec. So, yeah, I spent a lot of trading is a passion. And it always has been right. So, you know, some people, they play golf, some people do whatever, it's like, me, I love to talk to traders, I love to read about trading. And I love to trade, right? And the thing that I've been able to say… As far as “made it”, the beauty now… I've gone through so many cycles, I've learned so many techniques, I found what works for me, right, which is hopefully you can do that earlier in your, early in your business, right? So, you don't have to keep shift shifting until you find that. Because if you can find what calls for you and then focus on it, then you can become, you know, an expert in it, right? But also, the thing I've learned is your personal circumstances change, you get older, your risk profile changes. So, you may go from… so there's nothing wrong with switching styles. And even that, what you've learned is that you may have to change styles because of the current market environment, right? Like, look at the last two years.
Agnieszka 26:06
I know.
Peter 26:07
You cannot make it, you cannot make a living as a Trend Trader. Right?
Peter 26:28
But, that knowledge of knowing, okay, this is a good time not to trade, say, as an example, or learn another technique, right, or, and be in tune with the market and what Bill always said want the market wants, right? So, you know, you gotta learn to dance with the market, you got to want what it wants. Not necessarily what… It's not what you want, the market doesn't care what you want, right? So, but that idea of being able to step back with the experience and say, I understand the cycles we're in, I understand what technique is going to work. And either I want to trade that way or I don't, like for the last two years, you know, it's a great time to be a Day Trader, right? Lots of volatility, lots. You can trade the five-minute chart and do great, but I have a full-time job. So, it's not something that I could do. But it was a great opportunity. Just like five years ago, it was great to be a Trend Trader or a Swing Trader, because you just bought the dips, bought the dips, bought the dips, and you can make a great living, right? But, but being able to see that and so when I say, when I've went to someone asked me, have you “made it”, to me that's making it, being able to understand all that and be able to adapt to it. And because there's also this false impression “made it” means you've made your million dollars, it's and again, this is how society portrays traders, on social media, as well as in the movies, right? And look at all the movies, right? Whether Wall Street, whatever it's like, it's all about greed. It's all about making all these, all this money. And they don't even look at the fact that a lot of these people that are like that are the ones that lose the biggest amount of money too. When you look at the biggest, most successful traders in the world, most of them have had devastating losses. Many of the many of the successful traders or, you know, historically successful traders that people read all their books have died broke, committed suicide, right? And that's a thing.
Agnieszka 28:15
Nobody talks about that though, right? In commercials.
Peter 28:18
Exactly. But that thing about trading? Well, again, there's a lot of people that they call themselves traders, they're really gamblers, they're high-risk takers, they have devastating losses, impact their family, their own personal lives, a lot of people commit suicide, there's definitely a negative side of the business. And it is very difficult. It is a hard business. But having that… Making it as far as having a good work-life balance, Trader-life balance is critical. And you can get so caught up in trading, that it becomes all-encompassing in your life. And it is like an addiction, right? And being able to recognize that, you know, if you're going down that path, it's probably not right for you and get out of it or get help. But it's, it's one of those things where it's easy to get caught up in that, right? And it's but having that balance, being patient, learning it slowly is, is what people aren’t saying out there and unfortunately, a lot of young people are getting sucked into the sales pitch and paying severe consequences because of it, right?
Agnieszka 29:26
Yeah, I love the way that you have explained what does that mean for you—“made it.” And I really hope that the listeners will take it very deep into their heart. Because that's exactly what I think the key is to success too, to have more distance to all that ideal picture of, you know, “made it” millionaire, and all this success that is kind of waiting somewhere and nobody really knows if anyone has achieved that, like, easily, right? Without getting bankrupt or getting a heart attack or all the other things you mentioned. So, if you look at the word “made it”, you have to, I think from the mindset perspective, you have to make trading it; it has to be this impersonal thing to you. But a lot of traders make it personal, they identify themselves through the money, through their success. So, they make it very personal and that makes it actually difficult to “make it” to make it impersonal. And it's very difficult for people to stop that. Because once you identify yourself with your success, and you then you really have to keep going, right? Because if you are not bringing something into success, it says everything about you personally. I have a bonus question for you. If someone would tell you now that you have to stop trading, what would you do? Tough question, right?
Peter 31:06
Yeah, no, it's interesting. So, what? So, again, if I had to stop trading, there's still a lot… I get a lot out of just learning about trading, studying trading, talking to traders, and helping other traders, right? So, that would, and that fills a lot of my time anyways. But obviously the, you know, the better trading itself is, is something… And I think this is again differentiating between. Well, first of all, you have to define what is success as a trader, like what does a successful trader mean? A lot of people to your point, they just think it's the equity curve, and it's how much money they make, and unrealistic definition of success, right, because even, even any career anyone has, they have their ups and downs. And in trading, like you’ve got to expect that, at some point, your strategy isn't going to work anymore, there's going to be a period of time where you're gonna have some drawdowns. And that's just being realistic, right? And if you're continuously have this unrealistic expectation, you're just going to torture yourself. And then if you end up having a drawdown, and then they, they triple the size, and they end up… You have this downward spiral, right? But, but to not be able to trade. Like I said, there's been so much, there's so much other benefits you get from trading, other than just financial, right? And the biggest thing, and I know you've talked about this a lot too, is you learn about yourself, right? Like, I always say trading is the greatest psychiatrist, or greatest psychologist, because you can, you cannot trade without facing your issues, your beliefs, your, your reactions to things, your emotions, your feelings, all of these things. And in order to be successful, in the sense of, you know, making consistent, let's call success making consistent earnings or whatever, right? That you need to tackle those things. And you need to address them and confront them and learn to adapt and trade accordingly. Right? And the other thing, too, is, let's face it, we were talking about it's a great community, right? And there's lots of great traders out there. I found through Twitter that I've met lots of great traders, most people are open to talk about their strategies, they'll talk about their experience, like the good ones, like not all the scammers out there that are doing, but there are a lot of guys and women out there that trade that are, if they got the experience, they've they're willing to help their fellow trader, get them, get them going and deal with these issues. And I love your podcast, because I know you're gonna start talking about a lot of these issues, that it's about being real. Right. And not, not the, the phoniness out there. And the sooner new traders or any trader understands the reality of fact that maybe they can take a step back and approach it in a more, you know, organized manner and treat it as a business that it is. It's not, it's not a game, right? It is a very serious business. And you know, it will… the market will teach you painful lessons and you can confront them and you will learn about your self-reliance and you will have personal growth and you know, there are endless opportunities to do that. And the market will show you the way if you're willing to listen and that's required to make it, right? Like you need to do that.
Agnieszka 34:24
Right. It's almost like your best friend that will always say the truth to you. Right? And the question is, are you ready for the truth? Are you ready to listen to it?
Peter 34:34
You can’t handle the truth.
Agnieszka 34:36
Exactly, can you handle the truth? Because the market is… gives you very, very honest feedback about yourself a very immediate, and you really have to be willing to listen and not negotiate, not resist it. Just just take the feedback, learn from it. And then it will be, it will be much softer for you, you will not get slapped that hard every time. I gave this example, you know, that very first time when you let the loser go and it go, the price goes down, and you actually let it too far and go too far. And now you pray for the price to come back up. And it's almost like the market says, okay, this is the first time I'm gonna help you. Okay, this time, I'm gonna save you. So, you pray there, and you say, I promise I will never do that… This is the last the first and the last time I do it. So, you're saved. The market helps you. Now you can get break even. And you all… thank God, lucky me. But then instead of learning from this and say, wasn't I lucky, the next time that it happens, instead of saying, I'm not gonna do that mistake again. Say, you know what? Last time it worked. I'm gonna just wait until it comes back. So, there you go, you see the feedback we are getting. And actually, if you start seeing things in that way, you get the lesson. If you don't learn, the lesson will be much harder, because you will have to pay.
Peter 36:04
Yeah. And not only that the market will entice you to do something even, even crazier the next time. So, that example, what'll happen is the next time you hold your loss, it's down 20%, you'll say I know it's going to come back so you'll add to the position, right? And you'll keep adding to it and adding to it and that's where a lot of people end up blowing their account. They're saying, well it’s gonna come back, it always does. It might rescue you, but it's like, it's tough. It's testing you again. Yeah. Let's see what happens.
Agnieszka 36:32
You didn’t learn the first time. So you know, sorry, this time I already have to pay. I tried to help you. But sorry.
Peter 36:42
Exactly.
Agnieszka 36:43
So, the last question that I would like to ask you, because you have had so much experience and you have been trading for so long. Do you ever struggle as a trader? Do you ever have a feeling like maybe that you missed it? So you, you were at work? And then you see the move? And you go like, I've missed it. I wish I was there. Or that you struggle because you took a loss? Or did you ever struggle?
Peter 37:08
Well, I struggle every day, I think most traders will most traders will say they struggle every day or learn something new every day. And when you say struggle, the question is how much do you struggle, right? So, this is that thing of like, let's say for example, you know, FOMO, let’s use FOMO as an example. So, as an experienced trader, you should not FOMO shouldn't be, it shouldn't bother you, you should say, opportunity is gonna come every day, right? Yeah, and you should be as experienced enough when you see the FOMO because FOMO will, will pop up, right? And that'll be, you know, you'll see whether let's use you know, Bitcoin as an example. Say, right, so that was on Bitcoin, it's gonna go to the moon and everyone's making money. So, you know, during those periods, and I know, let's say the last 10 years, you've seen the marijuana stock bubble, you've seen the Bitcoin bubble, you've seen, you know, anyway… There's always a bubble happening. And what's great now at my, with my experience is to say, okay, I see what's happening, right, and I can, I can watch it. And sometimes you can, then knowing what's going to happen, you can take advantage and trade accordingly. Right, you're not getting, you're not, you know, buying the new the high and things like that. So, so part of it is using that experience, understanding the FOMO because you can, you'll still feel it, right? So, you'll still, it's easy to get caught up in that, but the difference is not acting on it. Right? And, and this is a thing about your emotional reactions. So, do you struggle? Yes, you're human, right? You're gonna have emotions, you can’t help it. One of my big struggles is often taking profits too soon as an example. I'll just use that as, as an example. Right? So, obviously, if you take profits, and then the next, next week, it's up another 10%. You're like, kicking yourself, right? But, you know, putting it into the right perspective realizing, you know, this, I always say, one trade shouldn't make you but one trade can break you. Right? So, knowing that, okay, I missed that one, on to the next one and learn, it's not necessarily learning a lesson, but you do. Again, you're continuously learning. Okay, why did I get out there? I think one of my tweets a couple of days ago, or it’s today's tweet, actually, if you don't have a reason to get out, don't.
Agnieszka 39:25
Don’t. Right, I saw that. Yeah.
Peter 39:27
Okay. So, that was today's Tweet and what it meant was, and it may be again, I use Twitter; it's more to educate myself and remind myself of all of the lessons I've learned. And that's because I did get out of a trade yesterday that I shouldn't have. I'm Tweeting about my personal experience.
Agnieszka 39:45
That's so cool.
Peter 39:47
Not only in the past, but also in reality, right? So.
Agnieszka 39:52
So, that's your inspiration? Basically. Your own journey.
Peter 39:55
Yup, reminding myself of what I should have learned. And if I, you know, so, you know, again, that example of, you've got a strategy, you've got it, you've got an exit strategy, rules in place, follow them, right? And if all of a sudden, like, you know, the last couple of days, obviously, and again, this is more of a timely issue. But what's been happening recently with a banking thing, and lots of lots of volatility. So, it's very easy to look at the market, like, I think it was yesterday, was up strong, and then all of a sudden, it just… In the afternoon, it just started coming off, off, off, off off, right? So, it's easy to get, it's easy to, again, if you're looking at a five-minute chart or something, it's very easy to get, Oh, my God, what's happening here, like, what's going on, I better get out of my position. And once you step back and look and say no, it's, it's just nothing major. Like there's no reason to get out. Right? But anyway, so yeah, that's an example. So, I struggle, yes, do I remind myself, but I don't get hung up on it and beat myself up, right? But I don't, I don't make the mistakes anymore of like, holding on to losing positions and stuff like that. So, those are times but getting out of getting out of positions too early is still something I deal with.
Agnieszka 41:05
That is so, so, so good to remind yourself and everyone because that's, that's again, this, this part have “made it” or not “made it” like, emotions will always be there. This is how we experience life, we are human beings. I personally don't believe in like excluding emotions, in trading. I approach it from a holistic point of view, and teach my students to actually use it to their advantage. But knowing that all these things that normally you struggle with that you know, the FOMO, it's gonna pop up, but it's really about how you're gonna handle it. And those things you can learn, if you know that you can, you can anticipate them, right, and you can, you can decide for yourself how you're gonna handle it. And then with experience, it becomes kind of a muscle memory. And at some point, you will notice that it's there, but you don't feel the urge to react to it. So, that's, that's really good to know that, you know, not having the expectation that one day, all those emotions are just gonna disappear. And you're gonna sit there in front of the computer, and just be calm and poised and no emotions.
Peter 42:12
And just one other point about that, about, again, when we talked about finding the style that works for you, or whatever fits you. And you can do multiples, like when I said, I don't hold losing positions anymore. That's not necessarily true, because I may have a long-term account that it is a Trend Trading account, say and that you're willing to sit through a 20% drawdown. Right? And it fits because you've been holding it for a long time. And it's still within that within the parameters. And then you can have a Short Term trading and scalping account where you might do some Day Trading on the side, because volatility is, but it's when people mix those things. And they, they're looking at their small term scalping account, and trading, like a Trend Trading account and using and using the emotions that are rising to say, well, it's not big dollars, or it's not that important, or, you know, it's again, it's sticking to those rules, and not making excuses. And there's breaking rules for just breaking them. But then there's breaking them where we convince ourselves, it's okay to break them. And…
Agnieszka 43:16
Right? Yeah, there's a lot of gray areas that we can find, right? And to excuse our mistakes or excuse our decisions just to, to not to take the loss basically, if you keep trying avoiding taking the loss. Well, this brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you so much, Peter, for joining me for this candid conversation today. It was an absolute pleasure to have you here and hear your point of view on all these really important issues for every trader, whether you're just starting or you have been trading for a long time. And I really hope that it will help to take the unnecessary pressure off many traders who are listening to this and that they will be willing to adjust the unrealistic expectations because those things are only causing frustration and taking your focus away from the trade, trading the plan basically.
Agnieszka 44:15
Thank you so much for listening to the Confidence in Trading podcast. If you enjoyed my show, please rate and review it on Apple podcasts. And be sure to subscribe so you can come back for a real live conversation in the next episode. Until then, this is Agnieszka Wood, from Ahead Coach. And don't forget you too can realize your dream without losing yourself and your confidence in the process. Thank you so much, Peter, for joining us today.
Peter 44:43
Thank you so much.
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