Confidence in Trading

Beginner's Journey

Agnieszka has a real conversation with Zach Rubin about his journey into the world of trading. They discuss how he got started, what he expected in the beginning, and the valuable lessons he has learned along the way. Zach’s biggest takeaways include developing your mindset as a trader, not just your technical skills, and learning how to fail productively. These two insights are key to finding lasting success and enjoyment in trading.

Broadcast on:: 21 Apr 2023

In their conversation, Zach answers Agnieszka’s questions about how he got started in trading and what inspired him in the beginning. They talk openly about how trading has lived up to his expectations, and more. While money and freedom are the initial drivers for most people who start trading, the reason people stay often surprises them. For Zach, in the end, success in trading is not really a destination but a mindset. Learning how to trade well can help you learn more about yourself and your potential, not just as a trader, but also as a person.

About Zach Rubin

Zach Rubin is a successful entrepreneur, Architectural Designer, and Owner of Foundry House in Greater Atlanta. Zach discovered his passion for architecture while at Penn State University, where he excelled in drafting and architectural design. He continued his education at the Georgia Institute of Technology, graduating with a Masters from the College of Architecture.

Zach’s interest in trading was sparked during the COVID-19 wave and he started trading the Nasdaq and S&P Futures. After many ups and downs on his trading journey and making an incredible leap in his personal growth, he was able to achieve his long awaited dream.

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Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach:

Contact Zach Rubin | Foundry House Design:

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Transcript

Agnieszka 0:00

I am very excited to have Zach here today with us who is going to share his trading journey that started very typical, but took many unexpected turns, and in the end, brought him exactly what he wanted, but not at all what he expected. We'll discuss all the difficult choices and decisions that he had to make and how he approached them. So let's get started. Hi, Zach, and welcome to the Confidence in Trading podcast.

Zach 0:29

Hi, Agnieszka, thank you for having me.

Agnieszka 0:31

Thank you for being here with us. The reason why most people like you and I get into trading is because they have a dream. Trading is supposed to provide them with means to realize their dream, but what many people do not realize is that their dream has nothing to do with trading. Most do not have a dream to trade. They want to trade to make money.

Zach 0:58

Yeah.

Agnieszka 0:59

And that brings too much focus on the result right from the start and a lot of pressure. So Zach, can you tell us, what was your dream? And why did you get into trading?

Zach 1:13

So yeah, I mean, like most people, I think my first thought was, you start on YouTube, you're watching a lot of YouTube videos, and you see people trading—especially during the pandemic, I feel like the algorithm was just pumping like trading, traders and trading courses and everything online. And of course, you know, the dollar signs start flashing, right, the Lambos and dollar signs, you just start seeing like, oh my god, I did not realize this was possible. And it makes sense because like, as technology changes, and as, you know, this type of like knowledge, which I think previously was held so tightly by gatekeepers, let's say you had to work for a big firm to be able to learn these types of techniques in this kind of process, you know, that becomes opened up to to a larger population. And I think with online trading software and such, this is even expanded more. So, for the first time I'm seeing this, and I'm like, got the dollar signs in my eyes, right? Oh, my God, this is incredible. I could be making, you know, five grand a day, nevermind, five grand a month, right. And it just becomes this amazing opportunity. So thinking of myself, like, I know that I was very, very technical and very, you know, kind of engineering mindset. So it was like, Oh, this should be an easy fit, this should be easy for me to figure out. And, you know, if somebody, if anyone can do it, I could do it. So that's sort of what I think drew me into it at first, the dollar signs for sure. And a little bit of, you know, I'm a bit of an introvert. So I don't mind kind of working by myself on a computer at a computer screen for hours on end. And a lot of it appealed to me, I guess.

Agnieszka 2:42

I remember when I was getting into trading the visions were not so much of the Lambos, and you know, all the luxury lifestyles that you could have, but more the free lifestyle that was really attracting me because at that time I moved to the US and I lived in Miami Beach. So you can only imagine thinking about trading in the morning and then going outside laying on the beach in the evening or in the afternoon. That was the thing for me. And everywhere you saw the pictures of traders laying in a hammock or trading with their laptops at the pool with a cocktail in their hands. Right? Those images have changed by the way very quickly in the same pictures of traders stuck in their office with like 20 screens the whole day. So that was a little bit of a clash with reality later on.

Zach 3:32

The freedom element is also something that struck me. I'm a very freedom-oriented individual in general. And I've never enjoyed any full-time job that I've had. I've never enjoyed working with any bosses that I've had, like some people are like, oh, I had a boss—I love them! And I hated every one of them, not the person necessarily but the relationship of having somebody bearing down on me constantly keeping track of my work and stuff. So the freedom element for sure had me and also that's what the dollar signs ultimately represented to me was freedom, right? The freedom to be able to buy what I want to buy and go on trips when I want to go on them and not have to be bound to a desk for eight hours a day like most people are.

Agnieszka 4:13

Yeah, freedom and independence, right? Because we feel so dependent, especially like when people work for a boss. It's not just the money part, but it's more the freedom of choice. I remember that at some point, I got a job and you know, you have to ask for holidays and I have been an entrepreneur for many years myself, but then you get a job and suddenly you get few days of holidays and you're like, wait a minute, someone is gonna tell me when I can take a day off and when I cannot and I have to you know, like really limit myself. So that is I think one big aspect of trading that is very attractive to people—that independence of choice time, how I spend my time, and of course the money it's supposed to give you. How soon did you find out that there is a lot before you can get that freedom?

Zach 5:12

Yeah, so you know, like, when is the honeymoon period over? Right? I think every job, really every relationship, and every new hobby or new career path, let's say in this case comes at the with that honeymoon phase where you've got the stars in your eyes in the beginning, or dollar signs and you're just so into what you're doing; you're absorbing content nonstop. You're, you know, reading books, you're doing everything you possibly can; you just love it, you're in it. And then all of a sudden, like, the honeymoon is over and the long stretch begins of having to actually dig in and learn and do stuff. And that happened to me, I'd say, let's see, I had hired a coach, prior to you, who taught me the basics of trading. And it was prior to that even I think I was trading for about six months prior to that. So for those first six months was very much the honeymoon phase. When I first hired that first coach, I was like, Okay, that was about the point when I realized, I can't do this on my own right. And that was the thing that really, I think, struck me the most, because I'm a huge “do-it-yourselfer”; I like to build my own, wood furniture, and I do my own renovations and whatnot. And through all that I also was entering this career with the idea like, okay, I'm going to teach myself how to do this; I'm definitely smart enough to do that. And I'm going to just knock it out of the park. And as I kept hitting my head against the wall with frustration and the inability to actually realize any profits and to see the daily challenges with the occasional blow-up of just, you know, whether it was a virtual account or even a micro account, I was blowing them up. And I'm like this is not working, what's happening? So the honeymoon phase ended for me when I realized I need help from somebody outside of me, like a professional who knows how to do this. But even within that, I think there was still another honeymoon phase like, Okay, now I've got the coach, now I'm definitely going to learn this, it's going to be awesome. And once I'm done with this three month course, I'm ready to go right. And I'm just gonna, you know, the dollar signs are gonna start coming to fruition. So unfortunately, that also didn't happen. It takes more than just, you know, a year. By this point, I've been trading for roughly a year. And I kept hearing too, from a lot of other people online, like oh, you know, expect it to take a couple years, a year and a half, whatever. So these timelines were always in my mind. But the longer that goes, the harder it gets, I think to maintain that positivity.

Agnieszka 7:43

Yeah, it's probably because when you are doing or when you're not entirely sure what you're doing, or you're not entirely, not always doing the right thing, right, you kind of repeat what's not working. And it's simply not working, right? Because if you do what's not working, I mean, how can you expect different results from it? But I was kind of wondering, like, while you were talking, isn't it kind of naive for all of us to start something completely new and complex? And we all know, we all knew when we started, that most traders who are beginning this profession are not going to succeed, right? And still, every single trader who is at the beginning of this career, thinks I will be different. And still goes through the same struggle goes through the same problems. Regardless of, you know, you can tell everyone, listen, but this is gonna be hard. It's gonna, you will have to face yourself, you will have to work on your mindset on your psychology, there's so many different challenges. And somehow we don't want to see that. Is that something you think is just the nature of a human? Or is it just because it's such a difficult domain and people who are trying to achieve success in it are so ambitious, that they simply do not hear all those challenges and say, you know, I am going to conquer? What do you think it is?

Zach 9:17

Yeah, you know, so a lot. A few things there. First off, I think trading by its nature attracts ambitious people because even though trading appears to be a quick to money kind of operation, right, get rich quick scheme in a way? And a lot of people on the outside certainly have accused me of trying to chase something like that. But I think that yeah, so you're starting out with ambitious people. Most people that are getting into trading are rather ambitious. They're probably people that are willing to do things outside of the normal kind of structure of society, right? The nine to five job and, you know, planning with your 401k and having a retirement plan.

Agnieszka 9:55

And often very successful too, right?

Zach 9:57

Yeah, often very successful because if you're a successful in one area, you feel like, well, if I'm gonna, you know, this was my rationale, I was like, I'm a successful and smart person, if I apply to something like this that has almost limitless, you know, financial capability, then sky's the limit. Like I can be a millionaire in a year, right? And so you have a little bit of that. So you're partially clouded not only by the dollar signs of it all, and just like, you know, all of that. And plus, let's face it, a lot of the content that's out there online that's oriented around trading is typically very optimistic, right? You don't see a lot of trading coaches that are telling you like how much money they've lost and how terrible it is, and how hard it is and how many nights they cry themselves to sleep and, you know, whatever. But you do. So that, I think and the other thing you're clouded by is your own sheer ambition of just saying, like, I know, I can do this, whatever. And that's a good thing, it's important to have ambition, and it's important to have confidence that you're going to make it because without that, you're not going to make it through the trials and tribulations to get there. But there was another thing for me, which was that I did not realize even within the first six months, that to become a good trader, I needed to work on my mindset and that it involved far more than just my ability to see patterns and to recognize trends and to understand the charts and the tools on the trading platform. Like it was far more than that. And when I started to realize that was when I ultimately hired my second coach, which was you, to work on that mindset, because I came to the conclusion like, Okay, I've hired a professional trader, he's given me all the tools, and I'm still not getting it. The only other answer here is that I'm the problem, right? And so, or at least what's in between the ears is the problem. So that's when I started to look for additional support.

Agnieszka 11:46

Yeah, it's very interesting that at the very beginning of trading, we think that with time it will just get better, right? And then, you have been trading for two years, or some people even for 10 years, and then they see someone else coming into the market and after one year, they have success. And it's a huge confusion, because how is that even possible? What I realized, what was really very important, was that profitability is actually a skill, and not just a consequence of trading. Did you know that when you started, did you know that you actually have to first learn to be profitable, and then repeat what you need to do and repeat your process and put the strategy in, in order to actually have results?

Zach 12:41

Yeah, so short answer, no, I did not realize that. But I think I've always been aware of the idea of a money mindset, right? Or at least for—maybe not always, but definitely while I was learning how to trade, and I understood that being profitable, or being a successful, you know, person or an earner is, is a mindset. You know, it's like I was talking to somebody the other day, and we were talking about success. And I said, I stated it this way, I think it's accurate, which is that success is not a destination, success is a mindset. You have to first understand and believe who you are, what you're capable of. And believe that it's not even about believing, it's about knowing that the success is on its way, that money is coming, right that the the financial security is there, it's within reach, it's just on its way, and you almost have to it's almost a sort of a matter of manifestation in a way. And being able to bring that into you to be the right match as an individual to the type of success you want. Like, when you think of a successful person, you don't see a successful person who's constantly feeling like they're downtrodden and who's constantly feeling like, oh, woe is me, this is terrible. Like, my boss is a jerk, and this sucks over here, and you know, I'm never, I'm never gonna make it like successful people don't do that because they're successful. But they're not doing that because they're successful. They're successful, because they don't do that. And that's the mindset shift that I, I understood, but I didn't fully embody until I really worked on it. And that level, the level of work that was required for that was something I was completely unprepared for. I did not realize how important it was, how in depth it was going to be, how emotional it was going to be, and how much it was going to test me as a person. I mean, to this point, I believed well, I'm a smart person, I've got degrees from, you know, top tier universities. I've, you know, have the capability of earning money. Clearly, I've been earning money for years and had great jobs, and I've always been well liked, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But you know, it did not translate to the kind of financial success that I wanted until I really started focusing on that mindset.

Agnieszka 14:54

There is also another part to being successful, which I think is, comes to light very strongly in trading, and that's failing. Because successful people, they are successful because after they fail, they get up. If you fail and never get up, you will not have success. And that's where I think that big difference comes in where you know how to deal with your failure. And it's being triggered every single day during your trading routine, right? Because every time you take a loss, if you don't know how to deal with that, if you really do not take it in and accept the losses, you just feel like you're failing every single time over and over again.

Zach 15:42

Well, that's one of the things about trading that I think I've learned to love about it, is that it is a constant practice of failure; it's constant, you fail every day, every you know what, like, maybe 1/3 of every trade you take is a loss is a fail. And, you know, it's like that expression, it's not how hard you fall, it's how fast you get up. Getting up in this sense is not just like getting back on the horse and getting into another trade, which is honestly how it first felt to me, when I first started trading, it's like, okay, like bad trade, lost money, get back in and jump back in. But that's actually wrong. Like, you don't want to just jump back in automatically. It's not about it's not a matter of how fast you get up. It's how well you get up and to maintain that sense of clarity and get back to your rules and your trading strategy and doing your best to focus on that and stay calm and collected as you proceed. And it's no different really, than in any failure in life. You know, in any failure in life, you're going to encounter that same desire to want to just get back up and get running again. But sometimes you need that moment of reflection, and you need that moment to get back down to your roots and your baseline principles to know how to get back and get back in the right direction in a way that is not going to lead you back to that same failure, because that's certainly something we're all familiar with, right? That failing over and over and over again, the epitome of insanity, right? Or the definition of insanity to keep repeating the same thing that leads you to the same place. So yeah.

Agnieszka 17:17

I always compare it to like, the Sisyphean task, you know, where you push the big rock up the hill, and then the moment you think you're there, it just rolls back down. And you have to start all over. For two years, for me a long time ago, it really felt that way. And I did cry myself to sleep, yes, I cried pretty much every, every day when, you know, when I was stuck in a failing cycle. And I just could not believe how this is even happening to me, to me, that successful person in other areas of life, you know, just really the cliche story. But it's at that moment, you are simply so emotional and so wrapped up in your own world and in your wants, and you know, the things you're trying to avoid, that survival mechanism that's being triggered every time. So there is a lot of emotions coming into play. And still, regardless how much stress, how much pressure and emotions you're being exposed to every single day, once you get into trading, it's very hard to get out. It's very hard to say, You know what? I have tried for two years, and it's not working. I'm just gonna stop. Many traders blow up their accounts multiple times. Right? And still, they put more money in and go. Why do you think that is? What plays a role in those decisions?

Zach 18:53

Well, I think first off the dream is big, right? I mean, it's very easy. I fell victim of this a lot during my trading experience was, early on, was constantly doing the math on like, if I can earn this much per day, that's this much per week, which is this much per month, which is this much per year! Oh my god, this is man, this is amazing! You know, and like you keep playing that game in your head. And then maybe you'll adjust it. Oh, well, I probably can't make that much because that's like, you know, that's like an expert trader. But me as a beginner trader, maybe I can make this much which is still this much per week, this month for month, this month for a year, that's still a massive amount of money! So you're just kind of like going through this thing over and over again, believing, keeping the hopes and dreams in your mind, which is important. You have to maintain optimism, you have to be there, but that's the facade, right? That's not the reality of trading. The reality of trading is not to look at things in terms of, you know, how much you can earn; it's really about how much you can keep trading is more about about you know, maintaining what's in your bank in your in your trading account, not not just like zooming off into the stratosphere. It's about protecting that money that you've already earned. Everyone can create have a decent trade here and there; it's it's avoiding the bad trades that's really the way you become successful at trading and not overdoing those bad trades and allowing yourself to slip down that slippery slope slope of over leveraging or getting into too many, you know, a bad mindset where you're, you've lost all principles and you're just hitting that, you know, like a casino lever, right you're hitting the button, like just trade, trade, trade because you're just wanting to make up for failure. So I think that's part of it. But how did you start this, again?

Agnieszka 20:36

About the emotions that, despite the fact that traders are suffering, I mean, the periods of the period where you are trying to make it, but you're going through this emotional roller coaster every day, because of those, you know, revenge trades, because you have no control over yourself, or you lose control over yourself suddenly, and you wake up five minutes later, and you go like, what did I just do? How did this even happen? Who is clicking that mouse? Because I know it's definitely not me.

Zach 21:09

Yeah.

Agnieszka 21:11

That still, considering all these negative things, traders have still difficulty to say no, and I don't mean completely stop, but even say, stop for a week, give yourself a break.

Zach 21:26

Yeah, I think part of it is that, you know, you have this fear that if I stop or if I slow down, I'm not going to come back to it, because the reality is trading is hard. It's hard on you as a both and mentally like, the amount that you have to focus on the amount of knowledge you have to gain and constantly be reviewing and considering but also, it's hard, because it's emotionally difficult, right? The over and over again, the failures that stack up as you're trading and maybe across days or weeks, even, it starts to wear on you a lot. And I think there's some people, it's almost like a marathon mentality, right? Where it's like, running, it's really, really hard. And it's painful. And, but you know, you keep running long enough, you hit that second wind, your body just starts kind of gliding with the motions, and suddenly you're like, it's nowhere near as painful as it was, even though you're, you've ran twice as far. So I think for some, there's a little bit of that mentality, like if I give up now, I'm not going to come back to it, because I'm gonna get used to that, you know, lack of fear of lack of pain. I think there's, that's part of it. But I think it's, it's also just, you know, again, people that are attracted to trading are ambitious types. They’re the type of people that are just going to keep cracking away at something. And unfortunately, it does result in people blowing up accounts. And I think that that happens when you've got a little bit, you've got enough ambition, but you don't have enough self control and, ultimately integrity to be able to say, hey, I need to stop what I'm doing, because this is the wrong path. You know, it's like, almost like, you're blind to it. At least that's how it worked for me. On those periods.

Agnieszka 23:00

It not only takes a toll on you, right? It's also taking a toll on your environment, and I get a lot of times, questions from people who are struggling. How do I know it's time to stop? Is it something that your coach should tell you? Is it something that you have to make an agreement with yourself like, "okay, if I lose that much money, then I'm done?" Or is that something that you have to look around and see, okay, "How is my family doing with this? How is everyone dealing with what I am trying to achieve? Is this the right moment for me to achieve that?"

Zach 23:35

Right. So I was very fortunate in this way in that my wife fully supported me but I know that there were a lot of, there's a lot of people, a lot of traders out there who have family that is telling them, like "Stop" or "You're nuts. This is a bad idea. You're wasting, we're losing our money." Right? So I can't speak to that directly. I'm very fortunate to have had family that appreciated it. At the time that I really got into trading. It was during COVID, I was furloughed for 10 months. So it was sort of a perfect opportunity in some degree. I was almost thinking, like "Wow, the universe has given me an opportunity here to do something, right? And to learn this new thing and spend the time on it."

Agnieszka 24:08

Did that play a role though in your, like, when you are struggling, did it play a role that you are thinking "Okay, they gave me this opportunity, they trust me." Did that create any pressure of, "They trust me and now I cannot make it?"

Zach 24:24

For sure. So that's a great point. So as I was trading and failing at it, I felt, I mean, I'm just like this, my nature is like because I have a sense of duty to my family. I think that's a I don't know, maybe I'm wrong here, but this it seems like a male quality to me at least like having a family, you have to be the provider you have to kind of be especially in my household. My wife is a stay at home mom. So I felt that need to be a provider and especially while we were always furloughed and not making any money for sure whether it was even heightened, but I'll say that in my circumstances, I put far more pressure on myself than I did then my wife could put pressure on me to succeed at this, and that pressure ultimately was not a good recipe for success when it came to trading. I mean, you know, trading, unfortunately, is already a high-pressure situation. But when you add more pressure into it, whether it's that you have to make your bills or you have to generate income, or if you've quit your job, possibly, or you're furloughed in my case, and you're needing to supplement your lifestyle and pay for things, it's a really tough thing. And I remember when we were working together, that was like, the biggest thing, it was like when I, while we were working together, I actually got a new job, so I didn't have that pressure on me as much anymore. And that was sort of like an "Aha!" moment, like, "Oh, okay, well, now, if you don't have that pressure on you this, should you may start seeing changes here." And I think it ultimately did, but things still went sideways. So.

Agnieszka 25:48

Yeah, because it is really not the pressure from outside, it's the pressure that we create ourselves, right? That is, most of the time it's expectations, we have a lot of expectations from ourselves. And sometimes we project expectations from others on ourselves. And the more pressure you create, the worse it gets. Because we know that, I mean, to be good in something, to do something at the highest performance level, you really want to be relaxed, right? I started playing tennis not so long time ago. And actually, where I noticed a huge improvement was when I relaxed the most. And that's such a crazy thing to realize that in life, the more you tighten up, the more you muscle up, the more wants you have, the more difficult the things become. And all we need to do is just to relax.

Zach 26:49

Easier said than done.

Agnieszka 26:50

Just do it easy, just relax? Why are we trying to put so much effort in everything? And I was thinking the other day, "Where does it go wrong?" Who said at some point years ago, you know millions, or like when we were growing up, like, "You have to be or you have to do everything at your best", instead of just enjoying the process, because that would be so much easier for us now in trading.

Zach 27:18

That's a great point. And I think that enjoying the process of trading is really the key, right? If you can come to a position with it, where it's not about the money, it's not about the success rate, it's about the actual act action of finding the right trades, playing playing the chart right, entering and exiting in the right moments, I think that if you get that and you gain your satisfaction from that alone, and you could focus on that, then you will have a much more likelihood of being a successful trader. Whereas if you're trying to focus so much on the outcomes, it's gonna, you're gonna struggle.

Agnieszka 27:54

So, speaking of confidence, you kind of touched a little bit earlier, when speaking of success, you said that in order to achieve success, you have to be confident, right? You have to believe in yourself. Now, trading, a lot of times, makes people feel less confident. It actually destroys your confidence. Because you feel like you're failing all the time. Right? Yeah. What role did your confidence play in your trading journey?

Zach 28:32

Uh, so this is personal, but I suppose confidence is something I've always struggled with as a young person, right? All through childhood, I was picked on a bit and, you know, confidence was always something that I just struggled with, whether it was dealing with my peers, dealing with the opposite sex, dealing with anything related to work or school even. Like as an example, you know, when I went to my undergrad, my first year, I went from being top 5% In my high school to go into university, and suddenly failing almost every maj... like really hard major class, especially in the sciences that I was going for, and it was like, "Whoa," like, that was a major hit to my confidence, because suddenly I was like, I thought I was like, at least you know, top 10%. And, you know, and I was just, I needed a huge amount of extra support and tutoring to make it through just some of these first year courses. So it was a little bit of a wake up call first off that made me realize like, okay, first of all, my education that I thought I was excelling in clearly was not up to the level that a lot of other people are, and I found university to be very challenging. But it worked against my confidence. And ultimately what that meant is that I had at the time foregone switching to a major, like I wanted to really pursue architectural engineering, possibly structure engineering, something like that. And I ended up feeling that I wouldn't I can't do this. Like I just felt like I'm not gonna be able to do this. I'm not smart enough. Clearly, I'm struggling so much my freshman year so, you know, just take a different route, go to a major that's easier and get your degree and get out. Right. And that was, I mean, if I could go back and change anything in my life, it would be that. I wish I could snap, snap myself out of it and say no, like, with the right work and the right mindset, you can succeed pretty much in anything. It took me years, honestly, until it was, you know, in my 30s, to be able to discover that about myself. But so, in trading, by the time I started trading, I'd already kind of built up my confidence, at least far more than it had been in the past. And I think grad school had a lot to do with that. I, you know, went through a very challenging engineering graduate school and did really well there. And, you know, that kind of helped lift things up for me, but I was also more mature. And I think that my age kind of started to, I started to reflect more on myself and who I am and how I fit into the rest of the world. And through that, I started gaining more confidence, but trading is definitely something that will break you down to bits, you know, it's like, it'll break you down, so you can build yourself back up. And I think ultimately, that's the opportunity that trading offers. Anybody who tries it, whether you're whether you end up as a trader or not, is that you have the opportunity to get beaten down so hard with something that is seemingly, I don't want to use the word easy, but seemingly possible, right? Because you see so many people online doing and half the people that are online, successfully trading don't seem like the types of people you'd expect, you know, that are these like hardcore, really good, you know, Wall Street level traders that are driving around in Mercedes and stuff. I mean, it's just a, you know, you see regular people in T-shirts trading behind their computer, and they're making, you know, having a $4,000 afternoon or morning, and it's just incredible. But I think it worked on my confidence in that it broke it down severely over the course of about a year. I really questioned a lot about, you know, how smart am I? Am I capable of doing this? Is this something that I should even do? And then through working, you know, fortunately, fortunately, I found the right people to help me. And that's when I encountered you, to be able to work through the emotional and the mindset factors of trading. And my life has been changed ever since that, really.

Agnieszka 32:08

It was really beautiful to see the transformation from you. And really what the biggest part of it is, and I think you said it really nicely. It's kind of, you said the trading can break you down in pieces, right? And in fact, if you look at it from the psychological perspective, this is what needs to happen for every trader, in order to trade successfully. And let me explain why.

Because we, as people, we have huge egos, we have an ego, I mean, an image that we have created of who we think we want to be. And we are trying to fulfill that image. We are trying to do everything to make sure that people will see us that way. And that we can see us this way. And everything that does not comply with an image, we are not happy about. We call ourselves names. We beat to ourselves up about it and we are very emotional. So what actually trading helps you do is to break that image into pieces. And you need to do that because that image stands you in the way of being present with trading and not putting yourself into the equation. Because in trading, you shouldn't be there. It's just, it's the market, it’s the chart. And whatever you want, whatever dreams you have is irrelevant. The moment that you are trading, your dreams are irrelevant. The moment you start to think about them, it's done. It's done because now you are not trading, you're dreaming.

Zach 33:56

Yeah.

Agnieszka 33:57

And that causes a lot of problems. If you're not aware of it, you will be taking everything personal. And that's where your confidence suffers. And it is good to, indeed, have someone who is going to help you through the journey and help you not take things personal, because it feels personal, right? When you're sitting there and you're losing money and it's your money, you're, you know, you worked hard to make it, to earn it or you maybe took it from your savings and it's very personal, it becomes very personal. So it is not always easy to step outside of yourself or outside to take yourself outside of the equation and actually start looking at trading impersonally. It's not about me. I know we think we are the center of the world.

Zach 34:51

Main character, main character syndrome. That's right.

Agnieszka 34:55

Exactly. Well, it's not, you know, it's not the wonder that we think we are the center, because in the end, you know, the Earth is turning and the center point is where we are standing and we are standing there. So it seems like everything turns around us, right?

Zach 35:11

Yeah.

Agnieszka 35:12

But that's, that's how I see trading actually helping you to get over yourself. And, and, you know, getting over your ego helps you to live a happier life, because then it's easier to accept the things that you might not like, because things are as they are. And we are just too picky. We like this, we don't like that. And we try to resist things or we cling on to things. And that creates a lot of negative emotions in life. Because, you know, when you resist, what you resist persists. Right? So with that trading, and you mentioned that, that, you know, the changes that you are undergoing, while learning trading, or trying to succeed in the market are very helpful also in your daily life. And it definitely forms you as a person, as a human being.

Zach 36:05

Yeah, 100%, you talk about ego—I think that the key there is that as you-with every trade that you take, a little bit of your ego goes into that trade, right? Because it's like, you're only taking a trade because you believe that you're right, first off, right. So there's already embedded within each trade is a little piece of your ego that's going in there and every single time that that trade comes back wrong, and you lose money, which is a double whammy, because that hurts even more than just having your ego shocked a bit. Now you're losing money on top of it. And there's like, you know, this actual proof of your failure with a negative balance on a trade, it really the ego element of it is challenging. And I've never perceived myself as being an egotistical person, but I know what you mean by it's more of the ego and that we all carry, right? It's the it's the the part of our personality of our person, that whether you have a big ego or not, it's you we all have something that's there that informs who we are, and you know, our stasis, our status, our confidence, all of that. Yeah, you know, trading has a lot to do with that. And it has a tendency to, to really hit areas of your ego that you hadn't previously maybe experienced. But I think that what ends up happening is just like weight training, or any other kind of physical activity, that repetition of constantly working through it, and going through those steps and feeling that that constant attack on your ego ultimately has the potential to strengthen your ego, and to help you have balance with it, right? So that it's not just all about, "Well, I'm better, I'm right." It's not that kind of ego, it's more of like, a sense of calm and collected control over yourself, confidence of who you are, what you're capable of. It's like the, I used to think that the image of a real trader was somebody who is very successful and confident and wealthy and, you know, kind of walked into a room and everyone was like, Oh, there he is, you know, kind of like that kind of thing. And that's the wrong kind of ego. It's a real kind of trader that I've now understood, like, the real image of a trader is somebody who's just extremely quiet, collected, and calm in any circumstance and is basically able to, like, analyze and be thorough and thoughtful without kind of allowing their emotions to go either to the extreme in either direction, right?

Agnieszka 38:29

Yeah, because you don't really want to react to traders, right? So whether you're a trader or not, I think that's a quality that's very helpful in life in general, that you are not reactive to whatever is happening outside and see emotions as something that is temporary. Because everything is changing, everything is passing and so do emotions. And when you are trading you will definitely have a lot of emotions, right? And the interesting thing is, is that when the emotions are not pleasant, we don't want to feel that, right? And the emotions when you are in a trade, a lot of times people will feel anxious or nervous right because now you are exposed— you are exposed to risk. So, instead of making the time that you are exposed the shortest possible and the wait for the perfect trade, for the perfect setup where you actually feel okay, this is my chance, I really feel comfortable with that. Sometimes we trade you know, tweezers coming in and boom, boom, like you said, clicking clicking the button, making a lot of trades and exposing yourself to all these dynamics that actually make you empty, that completely use your emotional capital. And at the end of the day, you are exhausted, and you have lost money, and you're like, is this what is this all about? Is this what I'm going to try to do for the rest of my life?

Zach 40:09

Yeha, well that's the thing, you know, it's that I think where that comes from the constant kind of revenge trading where you're you know, that's sort of that you’ve fallen and you want to get back up as quickly as possible, you want to just like, you know, it's like, you don't want to be beaten down by it. So you get back up right away, and you're ready for another fight. But that's completely the wrong mentality. And that's unfortunately, the mentality that comes I think, naturally to a lot of people, especially those ambitious types, right, it's like you refuse to be taken out, be taken down. But it's not the right mentality for for trading. Trading is, you know, you're much better off to be—there's a great expression that this just comes to mind here, it's like you've and this is mostly applied to kind of society, I think it's better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war, right? So I've always loved this expression, because it's like, in other words, be capable of power. Be capable of violence, maybe not the right word, but like reassured power, right? Just the ability to go forth and knock it out. But figuratively, of course. But in trading, you have to have that ability to be able to get back up and go, go, go. But you also need to have that ability to stay calm and collected. And that's about living in that garden, right? The peaceful and tranquility of it to exist within that space, but have that ability to go and know when the right moment to strike is. But it's that balance, because you know, the worst thing to do is to be the kind of trader that goes in and is just trying to hit it harder, harder, harder each time. And as you fall and fail, you get back up and you go, you double down, right? That double down effect is really bad, especially in trading. So, you know, I think that was the part for me, too, that I struggled with a lot. I mean, there was a lot of moments where revenge trading was a cornerstone of my trading experience for a long time. And then feeling that complete depression of like, I've caused my own failure here, you know that, and it's tough, it's tough to work through, it's a very, it ends up becoming a very emotional thing. And that was ultimately something I completely did not expect when I got into trading.

Agnieszka 42:15

And then last thing I wanted to ask you, what comes first, confidence or success? What do you think?

Zach 42:23

Hmm. I think for some people, they fall into success backwards, while walking forward somehow. It just happens. And in those instances, I think confidence comes second to the success. It's like having major success, you now feel more confident people look at you differently, and that adds to your confidence. But that kind of confidence is only as strong as your next failure. Right? It's only it'll only be there until you failed and you will fail. Because the one thing about people who have succeeded is that they failed more times than they've succeeded. It's just a matter of course. But the other way to do it, and I think maybe the more sustainable way to do it is to build that confidence, that mindset, which I think we're kind of using interchangeably here to build that to a place where no matter how many times you fail, you will still pursue that success. And that success ultimately is there for you if you can maintain that mindset and that competence. And you only do that by work on those things first, so, so maybe a two-sided answer, but I think the better route is to build that confidence and success, confidence and, and mindset first.

Agnieszka 43:36

That's the way I see it as well. Especially that confidence that comes really from within feeling confident about yourself and knowing that you are capable of bringing something to an end of relying on yourself, of, you know, when you promise something to yourself that you're actually going to do it, talking about integrity here. Because when you're trading it is so easy to mix it up with competence.

Zach 44:05

Yes.

Agnieszka 44:06

When you're trading well, you're confident, the moment you start losing, your confidence is gone. Thank you so much Zach, for joining us for a real conversation on topics that are not always easy to talk about, and that, you know, many people don't want to discuss many times.

Zach 44:23

I wish you all the success. I think you, you know, I love your brand. I love what you do, and I know you helped me a lot so I'm excited for you to help others.

Agnieszka 44:33

Thank you so much for listening to the Confidence in Trading podcast. If you enjoy my show, please rate and review it on Apple podcasts and be sure to subscribe so you can come back for a real conversation in the next episode. Until then, this is Agnieszka Wood from Ahead Coach. And don't forget you too can realize your dream without losing yourself and your confidence in the process.

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✉ Contact me: launchyourlife@aheadcoach.com

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