Smart Business Revolution | Turn Relationships into Revenues | Networking | More Clients | Relationship Advice
009: Hollis Carter and Jonny Andrews Of Perfect Publishing System | How They Reinvent the Publishing Business
Hey everybody and welcome to the Smart Business Revolution podcast episode number seven. This is John Corcoran and in this episode I talked to Neil Gottlieb who's the founder of three twins ice cream and all organic ice cream company. Neil talks about how he made three twins into one of the fastest growing ice cream companies in the nation. He also talks about the greater purpose which three twins dedicated itself to from day one which has really fueled their growth and he's also talking about how he plans on bringing greater meaning to his business now. So let's take a coming. Welcome to the Small Business Revolution. Revolution. Revolution. Do you want a revolution? Say you want a revolution? The revolution. It's going on right now. Welcome to the revolution, the smart business revolution podcast. Your source for how to grow your small business without working 24/7. Now, now you're host for the revolution, John Corcoran. Hey everybody this is John Corcoran and thank you for joining us. Now before we get started with hearing about three twins from Neil Gottlieb I want to tell a quick story. A number of years ago there was a famous actor who wanted to start what was really a vanity project. It was a side business that would make a little money on the side but actually it wasn't a theme restaurant or a movie production company or one of those typical types of businesses that most celebrities are usually starting. This was different. So he wanted to start a food products business and he started with salad dressing. Now this might sound familiar because I'm talking about the actor Paul Newman and Newman's own was the company he started. Now, Newman's own could have been very forgettable. It could have been a flash in the pan. People could have forgotten about it very quickly except that there was a major difference. They decided that they would donate 100% of their profits to charity. And because of that Newman's own really took off as a company and over 30 years they donated over 350 million dollars to charity which is just tremendous. Now, why am I mentioning this? Because what Newman's own did is not all that different from what our next guest is doing right now. He's creating a company that has a greater purpose that's central to its reason for being. So Neil Gottlieb founded Three Twins Ice Cream and it's a company that like Newman's own has a mission. So of course first they want to make delicious organic ice cream that people really like but secondly they give back 1% at least 1% of their revenues to environmental organizations through the 1% for the planet. Non-profit. They also created something called Ice Cream for Acres which is a land conservation effort. They purchased land for each pint of Three Twins is purchased. And so it's a great story and I really enjoyed interviewing him. So finally if you like this episode please I encourage you to go into iTunes and subscribe so that you can receive future episodes of the podcast automatically. And I also hope you'll sign up for our email list at smartbusinessrevolution.com so we can get in touch. So enjoy the interview. Okay, welcome everyone. This is John Corcoran and I'm really excited to have them online. Neil Gottlieb is the founding twin from Three Twins Ice Cream. Welcome Neil. Thank you John. It's great to be here. Great. So let's just start at the beginning. I think probably a lot of people can be curious about how you came up with the name Three Twins. Want to tell us about where that came from? Absolutely. So I moved out to California in 1999. Took a job with GAP and decided that wasn't the way to go so I quit that and went to the Peace Corps. When I came back I moved in with my twin brother and his wife who is also a twin. So we started calling the apartment Three Twins and a few years later when I started the ice cream business that was the best name that I could come up with far better than Neil's ice cream or cold creamy stuff or something even more generic. You probably get a lot of funny questions or people asking about the history behind it. That and people often come up to the events and insist that Three Twins makes no sense because it's six people and I like to point out that we're all individuals and the twin is in fact one individual person. That's funny. Yeah you mentioned the Peace Corps and working at the GAP and I think it's funny because you know you certainly don't have a traditional background going from the Peace Corps to founding a nationwide organic ice cream maker and and you also didn't really have a history of making a lot of ice cream before you launched Three Twins. So tell us how you decided to form a make an organic ice cream shop. I mean that's right I had never actually made any ice cream when I decided I was going to start an organic ice cream company and you know I don't know that there is a traditional route to entrepreneurism but this one of the things about entrepreneurs is that they don't take the traditional route they're not the ones that are going to sit in cubicles for 40 years passing the time. They're the wild ones the troubled ones that take their own route and do something new. So for me that route started in the form of one little scoop shop. I had about $70,000 saved up from paper routes when I was a kid to living wisely as an adult and lucky investment or two and I took that and parlayed it into one little scoop shop with no employees because that $70,000 really didn't go very far. It opened up shop in this completely tucked away location in Terrelindo which is a district of San Rafael in beautiful Marin County, California. So it started very humbly but always with the goal of building a brand I really thought that there was opportunity in the market for not just another ice cream company but really another great company. The next great American ice cream brand a brand that brought consumers great products that deliver them for a fair price and had transparency and cleanliness as far as its ingredients and business practices. And when you were looking at these different markets did you look at other markets as well perhaps in the organic food products industry and decide that ice cream was the opening that you were looking for? I did in some regard. It was a process of elimination. I wanted back in 2004 when I first started thinking about this to open a green business and I like to say this is before green businesses were cool and everything was a green business because now you know BP and everybody else they're all running green businesses and food is something that made sense because you can start food on a very small scale as I did with one little scoop shop and in some cases that small scale can then become a bigger scale and can translate into a brand and into a national brand. And you know if you look at different food businesses organic or otherwise that have a precedent of having both a retail shop and a consumer packaged brand. Ice cream is really one of the few where that's really a natural transition and one that others such as Hagen-Daz and Ben and Jerry's have done very successfully. And was that part of the plan from the beginning to start with retail and then eventually start packaging and selling it wholesale and going commercial? It was you know what that exact roadmap meant how that would take form. It's certainly been really different from how I expected. I think initially my plan was to package from it from the scoop shop and then each scoop shop would supply various local markets but that's that's just an impossible way to do things highly inefficient, highly inconsistent as far as your products and really doesn't provide the scale of product that you need to build a brand and to actually make any money in the business. And so that led you to eventually within the last couple years found or create a manufacturing facility in Petaluma, California, correct? Exactly. In February of 2010 we opened up what we like to call the largest dedicated organic ice cream factory in the world which is a humble 4200 square feet with an auxiliary warehouse of 8,000 square feet. And with that we went from producing ice cream in the back of what was then three ice cream shops, two of which had production to producing ice cream on a much larger scale. We can now produce about 12,000 pints a day at our factory compared to if we were hand packing maybe two or three hundred pints a day at the scoop shop. Huge difference. Huge difference and we're able to make our ice cream base or ice cream mix which is in our case very pure just milk cream, sugar and eggs with milk and cream from local organic family farms all located within 17 miles of our factory. We're able to make that base ourselves as opposed to buying that from another dairy and freeze up much more delicious, more consistent, richer ice cream than you can do with the limited machinery that you have in the back of a scoop shop. You mentioned part of the reason you chose food as an area to go into is you can start on a small scale. Now 2004-2005 is really before the movement towards food trucks really became popular which is a real thriving trend right now. What thoughts do you have on the food truck movement today and maybe opportunities that that's opened up for other entrepreneurs like yourself? Yeah you know the creation of this hysteria over food trucks is fascinating because it was all brought upon by Twitter which of course didn't exist in 2005 and very few of us actually had internet on our phones back then I think most of us still had flip phones. So I think it's great because starting a food business especially a brick and mortar food business is really challenging and takes a lot of money. I was lucky that I whether you call it foresight or just you know stinginess I save money throughout my life and so I had the money to start one but I love the fact that food trucks allow so many more people to get into the game with a much lower investment than you can do to have a restaurant or an ice cream shop or a bakery. So I think it's a great trend it makes food be more democratic and there's a huge amount of inventiveness and fun that comes with this food truck movement. We're not really a player in it although we do have an ice cream truck named Carl that's currently in Florida handing out free samples at various grocery stores mostly Whole Foods and has been making it a nationwide tour. We have not yet entered the vending space but we like some day. You mentioned that you had I think it was 75,000 in savings that you threw into starting the business and reading about your first year there you actually opened in August shortly before the school's kids went back to school and and then had kind of a wet cold winter that you entered right into. Was that a real difficult time? Did you find yourself eating into savings and in retrospect is there anything that you would have done differently? It certainly was difficult but at the same time I didn't know any better. So looking back at what I went through then I'm not sure my older wiser self could do that again but I was 28 and I have invested my life savings so there's really no turning back and I was excited about having started the business and getting into business and I really believed in myself and really thought that despite having to open in such a terrible location due to the financial resources that I had because at the time the commercial real estate market in Northern California was very strong so that it wasn't like now where there is a lot more retail commercial space available. So it's extremely challenging though that first winter as you alluded to it was the rainiest in California history as far as the number of days of rain. So it was hard we had one day in particular a rainy Monday where my retail sales were $49 so that didn't even cover, I mean didn't even come close to covering the rent yet alone, the other overhead and I could have made more money that day by going into San Francisco and begging on the street corner with much lower overhead. But I mean I think that's the thing about many entrepreneurs is that you don't know any better and you won't quit. You just refuse to quit because you know that your vision for the company is unstoppable and that it will at some point be recognized as something great and successful. It sounds like a lot of what led you to start this company was just part of your personality and willing to take on that risk of founding a new endeavor combined with maybe as you say not not knowing any better but I'm wondering if along the way you know a lot of entrepreneurs have a mentor or a coach or a small group of advisors or some called it a mastermind group they work with or lean on or learn from as they go along is there was there anyone at the beginning and is there anyone as you go along who has been served in that role for you? You know there's certainly never a shortage of people that make suggestions entrepreneurs especially in my case everybody has a suggestion for a flavor that we should make but as far as business mentoring and advisors I really didn't have that until much more recently when we started to really grow and I took on outside investment I then had a board of directors that's been you know a partner in the growth but the real first time I've had a real mentor was was relatively recently was an investor that came on just about a year and a half or two years ago who had a lot of experience being a CFO of a public company investing in other companies and growing businesses so this individual has become my first true mentor somebody that I can pick up on at any time and talk things through with somebody that takes the time to learn the business which I think is a hugely important trait of a mentor is somebody that does take the time to learn the business rather than trying to rely solely on his or her previous experience which is something that you you sometimes get a lot of in entrepreneurial space the people who have made money in the past and therefore they think that they know everything there is to know about your business but I found that you know for somebody to really be an important mentor as this individual Blair Lambert is the key is you know somebody who has a good head on his or her shoulders somebody who takes the time to learn your business and somebody who's available who and who wants to to be a part of the growth so that's been hugely valuable over these last two seasons great now I wanted to ask you a little bit about the culture of three twins because I find it very distinctive and clear on what your core is I'd like to ask you to just describe a little bit of what you see as your culture and your mission and perhaps also reflect on your past having served in the Peace Corps and how that has influenced the culture of three twins today I mean I think the culture whether you're talking about from the corporate side of my employees or you're talking about are reach out into the world more than anything is about authenticity and empowerment putting out a great product that as I all continue to feed myself great product for a fair price with a clean ingredient statement and business practices that make people feel good about the business such as supporting local organic agriculture or as we do through ice cream for acres buying land with the purchase of each pint so that's it's simple for me I mean that's that's how I would want a company that I was working for to operate and I think it's a great tool in attracting customers and attracting great team members who are just as passionate about the business and its future as I am you know and Peace Corps was really the first time in my life where I had the opportunity to give back to dedicate myself more than just a few hours at a time but you know months and months at a time to to try to achieve something that was more or less selfless and that was after having that experience and having worked on the corporate side of things it really felt like there was a great opportunity to combine those things I love business and I love capitalism as we have the freedom to create and build great companies in this world and especially in this country it's set up to foster that so I felt like there was a great opportunity to combine that you know dirty capitalist side with the inner do-gooder side and build a company that treated people with respect and it really included both our employees who are empowered who have flexible work schedules who get to decide often on the projects that they take on but then also treat your customers with respect by making that clean product free of chemicals free of things that are grown with acrochemicals and and the like without you know nonsense it doesn't have to be in there whether that's corn syrup or other ingredients that just don't need to be an ice cream and then give it to them in a you know beautiful package with fun quirkiness and make it available for a fair price you mentioned earlier Ben and Jerry's which I think is a another company that has a similar grounded nature to it has a strong culture has that kind of spark and funkiness that you mentioned did you study Ben and Jerry's at all and and did they influence your founding of three twins and certainly informally and when I grew up as a teenager if you had an extra three dollars in your pocket there was a good chance that it was going to be spent on the pint of Ben and Jerry's definitely a good investment as a team I mean it was it was the best back then for me I still love Jerry Garcia yeah I can't I can't really eat Ben and Jerry's anymore it's too sweet for me but I don't eat much ice cream so it's not really surprising that I would say that yeah but there I mean there they were and I think they continued to be in some ways a great company even as they're now a branch of Unilever they were very forward-thinking and a lot of things that they did starting with not buying milk but had growth hormone and then supporting various causes with some of their their themed ice cream and having fun and being unconventional so certainly that's that's something that's admirable and people often ask us you know if we're we're trying to be the next Ben and Jerry's and I guess you could say yes in some ways but I look at it more as we're trying to be the next great American ice cream brandon and picking up where they left off so whereas they started with hormone free milk we've only ever used organic milk and I think that's a huge fundamental difference that unfortunately they haven't taken the steps to do that or unfortunately for three twins they haven't taken steps to do that which creates a lot of opportunity for us but we also take attributes of you know their competition of hogging dogs you know we don't use stabilizers and ice cream and really focus on making the most delicious ice cream out there so certainly there are it's fair to make comparisons but we're certainly very strongly differentiated for them as well you mentioned earlier the low barrier for sounding a food business low-cost but one area that at least I've heard can be quite difficult for food businesses that want to be organic is getting certified organic can you tell us a little bit about what that process was like initially and is there any ongoing certification that you continually have to comply with mm-hmm so initially and this was back in 2006 shortly after I opened the company in 2005 the process was an application where you have to describe your processes and then have an inspector from your organic certifier come at the time I think the total investment was about fifteen hundred dollars plus having to create all the paperwork because as a small ice cream company you know just making ice cream for the scoop shops and selling it there we never had to keep production records for example but that's part of what you have to do for for your organic certification although that's part of something you have to do when you have a packaged food business anyway so as I I talk with quite a few businesses that are thinking about going organic and I was telling it's really not that difficult because if you are already keeping production records and sanitation records as most you know small to medium food businesses do once they're passed a certain scale it's not really all that much extra work you do have to have an annual inspection and you have to update profiles of new products that you make and changes in your production flow and any changes you make with say the cleaning chemicals that you do but it's not it's really not that much work because you're already most likely keeping all of those records and there is certainly an ongoing expense I actually just coincidentally paid my renewal for my CCF certification for next year which was thirty nine hundred dollars plus we'll have to pay for the inspection when that happened so you know we're looking at hard costs of probably slightly under six thousand dollars plus of course any any time that might play spend with inspectors and keeping records and whatnot but you know it's I think it's a good investment and it's something that that really sets us apart and helps consumers understand that we're absolutely authentic in the products that we offer looking back it's about seven years in from when you first founded your business is there anything this is kind of a broad question but any any hiccups or major setbacks that you care to share or things that you wish that you've done differently including you know bad hires or bad investment partners I know the location of your first scoop shop although it sounds like there wasn't much many other options at that point but any other hiccups you care to share yeah I mean man how much time do you have John I mean the first retail location was and in some ways continues to be a big challenge but not enough of a challenge that I've ever seriously considered closing it so it's it's there and it actually grew quite a bit this year and and continues to be a real bright spot in Tarland and a place that the community really enjoys probably the biggest hiccups that we've had the biggest challenges have related to going from an ice cream company that at the time had two little scoop shops to opening up a factory and trying to become a national brand which fortunately has worked out but the capital required to open up the factory was well in excess of two million dollars and that took a huge amount of time to raise and and initial estimates of what we needed what I needed to build the company to build the factory and grow the company into national brand was much lower than what it ended up being so I realized in the middle of economic downturn that I was going to have to raise more money and that did not work well it it took really over a year I would say to raise the money that I needed to complete the half completed factory and then get ice cream to market so there was a huge amount of risk with that certainly could have gone the other way and I and I could have lost the company but fortunately it didn't so and I think if you talk with other entrepreneurs especially in capital intensive businesses like food they'll have the same story almost losing the company because they almost ran out of money but and there are those that don't make it unfortunately but we're some of the lucky ones you also waited to open that factory imagine if you'd done that earlier before you had the track record and before you had a couple of different retail locations that were bringing in revenue and nor you know I think you already had I believe a commercial operation already but just a much smaller one at that point right exactly we had we did hand-packed pints in about 10 or 12 local stores okay okay so that proof of concept was hugely important whether that you whether you look at it as the proof of the affinity towards ice cream from the scoop shops or if you can look at the data of the 10 stores that we sold in there was no definite knowledge that that three twins was something that people wanted and you know I felt like it was really something it could work on a much much larger scale I wanted to ask you I'm sorry oh yeah I was just gonna say without that if I just gone to investors with my college education and a lot of enthusiasm said I was going to start a national brand of inconceivably delicious organic ice cream I never would have raised a dime having the shop even if it wasn't a crappy location having pints even if they were only intense stores was hugely important to getting that financing hmm now you I want to ask a related question and this has to do with recruiting and hiring workers over the last seven years you've gone from zero employees just yourself to I believe over 50 or so now what advice do you have for other entrepreneurs regarding scaling up that dramatically and and how you go about making sure you have the right people on board mm-hmm well I think one of the most important things is figuring out what you have to pay to get good people early on at the scoop shop sometimes just moving from being in the scoop shop all the time myself having to hire some adults that could work midweek during the day so I could free myself up to grow the wholesale side of the business I just you know didn't have much money and didn't you know know how much money we need to get a decent person so I really had some struggles with some some bad employees early on and I think the biggest reason for that was because I wasn't paying enough I was paying ten dollars an hour for for part-time daytime work and you know it should have been a bit more to get people that that were better qualified that were more than just asking for better workers now you know we're in a different position in that we reach an inflection point I would say a few years ago where all of a sudden went from having to go out and scour to find employees people contacting us every week telling us that they'd like to work for a company like three twins so you do it gets better like those web videos say about a different topic I mean you get to a point where you have good people and I think the key now for us is to find the right people for the right job and to be patient in our hiring not to just rush out and try to fill a position but take as long as it takes to find that person who's enthusiasm who's intelligence who's experience and who's willingness to do anything to help the company succeed matches what you need as company you know I was gonna ask you earlier I skipped over the question was about any particular books you've read that have inspired you but your your description of workers is similar to a book I read recently Good to Great by Jim Collins in that book he talks a lot about having the right people on the bus and then putting them in the right seats on the bus as a metaphor for building a great company is that kind of how you see it absolutely because you know there's there's a lot of great people out there that just won't be great for your company you know and you know our work environment is it's very loose there's very little micromanaging going on just because everybody's so busy with with their own roles who you know we need those people that are self-motivated and accountable to themselves as much as they are to other people and can manage themselves so that's a special kind of person and it's a different kind of person who maybe they're not the ones that that would they're the ones that would you know maybe not do so well getting micromanaged by people so we kind of let people run run free but it's very different than a lot of corporate environments you know so it's not you know somebody that needs a strong manager needs to be told what to do isn't necessarily you know any worse of a worker but they're not going to do well in our environment and one of the ways that three twins is definitely different from other corporate environments is your commitment to philanthropy and I do want to mention that even shortly after you open your doors you had a fundraiser for the victims of Hurricane Katrina and you're a member of 1% of the planet now you also created ice cream for acres initiative which you mentioned earlier what does it mean to you to make that that giving back commitment to philanthropy such an integral to the core purpose of your company well I mean I just think throughout life it's important to give back and if you're in a position to do so you should and because I think about the company said I loved growing up and as a young adult and they all gave back to some degree one of them was Ben and Jerry's like I mentioned earlier Patagonia was a is a great company that makes great products and they give back and I think that is you know really an important keystone for great companies to not not just take but to give so you know for me in my efforts to build a great brand I mean a great brand has to be great on many different attributes and that's one of them and I think it's important to just build it into the corporate culture from the beginning even when maybe it doesn't make economic sense maybe it's a little hard to write those checks at the end of the year but at the same time it it's part of who you are and you can't compromise on that front unfortunately I think a lot of people make these promises of oh you know their packaging says a portion of proceeds or X percent of profits are given back but they don't define what that it so and it's one of the things that I love so much about 1% for the planet is that it's just straight it's very clear percent of sales no compromising done so it's a promise to the consumer and it's also you know a contract between the business owner and in the nonprofits right one of the bigger hurdles that I often hear in in my practice and then talking to entrepreneurs and business owners is just in the process of starting up a business there are many legal barriers setting up them you know a corporation or an LLC you know even bringing on workers creating contracts that kind of thing you know we mentioned hiccups along the way but are there any any advice that you have for other entrepreneurs with regard to you know legal structure legal issues problems mistakes made along the way yeah I mean my first advice to people that are just getting going is to not spend a ton of money on lawyers things like starting up your LLC or incorporating if it's just you and or a business partner but not a whole group of investors it's really easy to do yourself and you can save thousands of dollars I always tell people to pick up the no-low books but when you get past that you're the great resources by the way yeah they're they're amazing yeah I do anything from you know take care of your own divorce to start your business but to not be cheap and and not rely on that kind of stuff too much when you know you really need a lawyer to take care of more complex things such as fundraising you know you want to make sure that you're not breaking security slots because that that can cost you a hell of a lot more down the road as you find yourself in prison because you know illegally sold securities so common sense more than anything you know don't just think that you're going to get something better because you're spending $500 an hour to have a lawyer fill out simple forms with state of California but at the same time recognize when it's the time to get legal help to take care of the complex things that will ultimately save your business a lot more money it's funny your advice is actually pretty similar to what I give a lot of people particularly if they're trying to start you know really bootstrap of businesses and if it's just them if they don't have a bunch of partners is they can really kind of do it their own early on but then as soon as they start to get some money in the door I say that's when you may go back and revisit your operating agreement or you may spend a little money to make sure that everything's done on the up and up yeah I think sometimes people feel like they're a real business and they start spending money on lawyers and it's just really kill us because it's a you know when you're working for yourself for $5 an hour and you're paying somebody 500 an hour to fill out a form you know you have to evaluate that and make the better decision yeah well I want to wrap this up but before I do that I want to ask you about the direction that you see three twins going say five years from now or down the line all plans you have I know you're rolling out the national expansion I think you're in all 50 states now but do you plan to expand into any other food lines as well well no so this is our kind of the tail end of our third summer since we opened up the factory and we've gone from selling in those ten local stores now we're available nationwide and somewhere between 1500 and 2000 stores in the United States plus some stores in China Thailand and Singapore so it's it's been it's been a you know great sport of growth and I think that we're really going to focus on at least for the next few years next three or five years continuing to expand the consumer package line of ice cream in the various sizes maybe add some novelties or the like but really continue to do what we've been having a lot of success with because there's a huge amount of growth for us still to be had you know we've been primarily in the organic and natural store channel we'll start to branch out more and more to conventional stores you know and just work on getting three twins you know alongside talking dogs and Ben and Jerry's in the freezers being that third brand being that next great American ice cream brand and growing the company to something substantial so that we can buy more local organic milk so we can give away more land so we can give away more money to nonprofits and get great organic stuff into people's mouths we have toyed with idea of maybe entering other product categories but for now I think our best investments are on our own brand in our core competency which is which is ice cream okay last question so what are your thoughts on the market generally today for business owners for aspiring entrepreneurs do you feel that now is a good time to start a business I think any time's a good time I mean I know that during the economic downturn that might have been a little more difficult but you can't time the market whether you're talking about the stock market or starting a business you know if you have a good idea and you have the resources to make it happen I do think it's a great time because we're in a an economy that's still growing it has some hiccups but it's still growing now we're in a time when you know the internet and social media makes getting your message out more makes it easier than ever before and less expensive and you know we're in this country where you know great ideas are fostered and people rally behind entrepreneurs so absolutely you know people prepare themselves have a good business plan they have capital to make it happen and a great idea or even just a good idea that that can work I would say go for it even a mediocre idea even a mediocre idea the right resources right people can turn into a great idea I mean well that's true I mean it's really execution yeah I mean starting a nice workshop is a pretty mediocre idea thousands of people have done it for forehand but if you can execute and come up with great branding and come up with the product and the suite of attributes that people want I can turn into a great idea right well on that note I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us a little bit about your background and and three twins and so tell us how people can learn more about where they can get three twins and and even better how can they send you their recommendations for new ice cream I'm sure that's what you really want well we can like us on Facebook which is three twins spelled out or three twins ice cream spelled out on Facebook or they can go to our website which is three twins ice cream calm which is spelled out on there we have a store finders so people can plug in their zip code and find the nearest store or just nationwide go to Whole Foods and pick up a pint or chase down Carl wherever Carl is chase down Carl he's on Twitter so you can find out where he is or on Facebook very cool all right thank you Neil I appreciate you taking the time thank you thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution podcast with John Corcoran find out more at smartbusinessrevolution.com and while you're there sign up for our email list and join the revolution revolution revolution and be listening for the next episode of the smart business revolution podcast