Spirit in Action
Jonathan Kuttab's Past & Present in Palestine
Jonathan Kuttab was born & raised in Jerusalem, and he helped found Nonviolence International and the Palestinian rights group Al-Haq, and is the author of
- Duration:
- 55m
- Broadcast on:
- 09 Aug 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
(upbeat music) ♪ Let us sing this song for the healing of the world ♪ - Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpsmeat and each week we bring you visits and conversations with people doing healing work for this world, hearing what they're doing and what inspires them and supports them in doing it. Welcome to Spirit in Action. Our guest today for Spirit in Action is Jonathan Kutab. Jonathan was born and raised in Jerusalem and he helped found numerous organizations to seek non-violent and just possibilities for the Middle East. Among them, non-violence international and the Palestinian rights group Al-Hawk. Jonathan is also the author of "Beyond the Two-State Solution" and he recently released "The Truth Shall Set You Free." He is a resident of East Jerusalem and is a partner of Kutab, Koori and Hana Alafirm in East Jerusalem. My interview with Jonathan takes place at the 2024 Friends General Conference Gathering held at Haverford College where Jonathan was a plenary speaker. Fortunately, I had production assistance on this program from Andrew Janssen. Keep in mind that there is a full-length version of this interview on northernspiritradio.org including more than six extra minutes. Right now, we go to Haverford, Pennsylvania to visit with Jonathan Kutab. Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me again for Spirit in Action. - Thank you. - You've just arrived at the Friends General Conference Gathering. Do you have jet lag or how did you get here? I don't... Actually, I drove up, I'm staying temporarily in Pennsylvania these days in Manhattan, Pennsylvania but officially my home is in Jerusalem because when I ceases to be the locus of my life and activity, I lose my residency and I become a refugee. So I maintain my official residence and my office in Jerusalem. - And you have a law practice there with two other people at least? - I do. I'm a member of the bar in Israel and in Palestine and in New York. - And in New York. Does the work you do in New York at all connect with Israel, Palestine? - Not really. I haven't been practicing much law in New York but I maintain my membership and the bar association and I maintain my interest and knowledge of American law at least at the federal level. - I interviewed you back in December of 2020 about your previous book. I haven't even actually seen the truth so set you free yet but I'm looking forward to it. I understand that the truth so set you free is more of a personal memoir. - Correct. When I wrote Beyond the Two States Illusion some people told me something's missing here. Your story. This is a good political discussion, a vision for the future but what about your story? What happened? 'Cause most people aren't interested in a political treatise, they are interested in stories. So I said, "Yeah, I have a lot of stories to tell." And so I started putting them together and that was the result. The truth shall set you free. - Can you tell me your first memory as a child? Maybe with your mother, not necessarily political, not necessarily, you know, I'm in Jerusalem growing up but what do you remember first? - I remember our home in Bethlehem which was also the church. 'Cause my father was a minister with the church of God, Pentecostal at that time. And I remember the home had these big large holes, at least I thought of them as being large at that time 'cause I was a little kid. But actually our home was also serving as a church. I also remember that my name, Jonathan, is a very unique name in Arabic. Very few Palestinians are called Unithan. My father picked that name from the Bible. You know, opened the Bible, stuck his finger the way you're supposed to and came up with Jonathan. - Why were you Jonathan or have you lived up to that name? - Well, Jonathan means gift of God. I've always felt that I was a little different. Maybe because of my name, maybe because I was the firstborn, son of a preacher, but I always felt I was different, I was special. - I always felt like I was different. I felt like I was alien in my family. I was so different from my siblings. So I had the same thing from another direction, from another planet. But what was it like at that time growing up Christian in Bethlehem and Palestine? - Well, it was a very conservative kind of Christian. We felt we were true believers. We were real Christians. Others were nominal Christians. They needed to be saved as well as a Muslim or a Jew or an atheist. They were all going to hell, of course, unless they accept Jesus as their savior. And that was very much drilled into me as an important part of what I'm supposed to be doing. Saving souls, bringing people to Christ. Even as a young kid, I remember teaching Sunday school or helping with Sunday school. I was very, very conscious of being Christian, being a believer, being saved, being born again, being different from everybody else in society, not just from the Muslims, but even the other Christians who were just nominal Christians when I was growing up anyway. - What was the division population Muslim Christian at that point in? - Around that time in Bethlehem, Jerusalem was probably about 10% Christian and the rest Muslim. I was born in 1952. We're talking between '52 and '67 when the occupation started. A little kid got school with all these children, a very, very strong sense of ethics and morality and the need to get other people saved because they were going to hell if I didn't do my enough to bring them around. - You say that like that's not your intent anymore, that's not your job? - No, absolutely not. I think that by the grace of God, I've learned that other people are also God's children, that he loves them and that they're not all going to hell and that many of the people who are so-called Christians really need to be saved, really need a lot of work before they can be living the life that God wants them to live. - I came to that awareness. I was raised Catholic and of course, let me tell you a joke, okay? A man dies, goes to heaven and he's getting the tour around by Saint Peter and this is where we keep the Methodists, this is where we keep the Episcopal, this is where we keep Shinto, this is where we keep Buddhist and so on, he's walking by and he goes down a road where on one side there's a very tall 10 foot high wall and he's pointing to the other side and he's saying, okay, and this is over here where the Southern Baptists are but he goes talking real soft and the guy says, well what's on the other side of this wall? And Peter says, that's where we keep the Catholics, they think they're the only ones up here and you evidently grew out of that by the time I was 15 I said, that makes no sense, this all loving God is only going to let my denomination into heaven. When did your change come? - It was gradual, it was gradual, it didn't happen quickly, got very interested in apologetics and I remember seeing a picture of C.S. Lewis and he had a pipe in his mouth, he was smoking, couldn't quite figure that out. But yes, it took me a while and I think my tour took me through agnosticism and questioning the existence of God before I went back and started accepting that there were other Christians who were also within God's grace and mercy. - How long did this period of agnosticism exist, did you become a lawyer therefore? - No, no, I think that happened mostly in college because until I came to college I was in a defensive environment where I had to defend the true faith, where I had to defend my principles and my position and college of course was a Christian college, Messiah college, so I didn't feel I needed to be defensive at all and professors, God bless them, not only allowed but encouraged us to think and to question and to examine our faith and our beliefs. - So you had the freedom to think otherwise and it was accepted, when did you decide on your lawyer path? (sighs) - The lawyer path actually came after college 'cause I wanted to be a psychologist and my mother says, well, you're gonna open a psychology store, do something that's useful. You like to read a lot, why don't you become a lawyer? And I thought, okay, I'll study law, won't necessarily become a lawyer but I'll study law and that's when I started studying law. - My first wife was a lawyer or she got her law degree because her mother wanted her to be a lawyer but then her mother died of cancer while she was in right before she graduated from college. So she had no energy for it but she decided she also didn't like lawyers. So therefore she chose not to practice ever as a lawyer, do you like lawyers? - Well, I don't like lawyers either. I mean, I like everybody but as a professional class, no, I don't like lawyers. And I'm not sure I even like the practice of law. I like the discipline of law. You see, law is a field encompassing field and certainly at US law colleges, they don't teach you law. They teach you to think like a lawyer. They think you to analyze and distinguish and understand one of my professors says, any fool can read the black letter law. I mean, the law is what the law, but to think like a lawyer, to analyze, to fit the facts into the legal principles, that's at least what they teach you in American law schools. - Is that where you started it? - Yes. - So then your admission to the bar or whatever they call it over in Israel, Palestine, that came later. - That came later and very interesting stories about it but yes, that came later. - I'd love to hear those interesting stories. - Read my book. - I will, but I think these people who are sitting in our audience today for spirit and action are saying, - Jonathan Kuttab, how did you get admitted to the bar in Israel? - Well, you see, it's funny because I really wanted to practice law in Israeli military courts in the West Bank. And when I went back home, the officer in charge of the judiciary, who is the Israeli officer in charge of basically the bar association and the Ministry of Justice and a number of other things, told me, you already have a degree from University of Virginia, all you need is six months training with any lawyer and we'll give you a license to practice in the West Bank. But during this time, I with another colleague helped start Al-Hakta, a Palestinian human rights organization. So he kept dragging it and dragging it and dragging it and wouldn't give me my license. Meanwhile, I took advantage of a law that allowed people from East Jerusalem, where I was, to join the Israeli bar association as foreign lawyers. So I studied Hebrew, took the Israeli bar examination, which you can take in any language you choose. You can answer in any language you choose and passed all the courses necessary. And then within six months, I became a member of the Israeli bar association who by law, because of military orders, can practice anywhere in the West Bank. So I became an Israeli lawyer before I was allowed to join the Palestinian bar association, which took me three years and six months, instead of six months. By that time, I was already a member of the Israeli bar. - How does that work? Does that go smoothly? Is that? - Israeli military courts aren't really courts. They don't, I mean, they have the appearances of courts. Supposedly, you are innocent until proven guilty. Supposedly, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove your guilt beyond the reasonable doubt, but it's all a fake. Anybody who's brought before an Israeli military court is never brought before the court until after he confesses. And they take you confession and they make sure you sign a confession in Hebrew before you even see a lawyer. And they prepare the charge sheet based on the substance of your confession. So there's really not much you can do as a lawyer in Israeli military courts. So I'm more of a social worker. I bring letters, clothes, pictures, underwear, whatever to the prisoners and a word from them to their family. So I'm more of a social worker than a lawyer when it comes to Israeli military courts. - But you said you wanted to become a lawyer in that. Is that because you wanted to do the social work? - After I did a couple of years stint in New York on Wall Street of all places, I went back home to practice law as a volunteer with the Mennonite Central Committee. And my assignment was to find ways to use law to work for justice in human rights. So all my efforts to study Israeli law and to join the Israeli Bar Association and to understand the military orders that were the basis of the law in the West Bank, that all got me involved in human rights and international law and application of international law to human rights in the West Bank in Gaza. Which was not so much the practice of law as you would think of it. It was a unique practice. My office was wonderful because I did every kind of law and I also did every kind of social work that was involved. So I'd be involved in many civil society activities as a lawyer. I also used some gaps that I found in Israeli law to establish non-profit corporations that would do the work of basically charitable societies or civil society work, which otherwise they would not be allowed to do if they tried to register as a society or as a charity. 'Cause it would allow them to register. But I could register them in Jerusalem as a not-for-profit corporation and they do all their work in the West Bank. That's how Al-Hakwa started basically, the first Palestinian human rights organization. - Where are you putting your energies? What work are you doing now? - Well, currently I am the executive director of Fozna, Friends of Sebel North America. Sebel is the Palestinian Liberation Theology Movement. So Fozna sort of promotes the principles of justice, non-violence as part of a Christian Palestinian response to the occupation and the ongoing situation for Palestinian Christians. So Fozna is an American organization and you can get its website at Fozna, F-O-S-N-A.org. So every week I put out an e-blast, my thoughts on the subject and activities that are taking place. There's a lot of people who are doing something in this country including denominations. Every month we have a meeting of pins which are Palestine, Israel, networks. There's a Methodist pin, there's a Quaker pin, there's a UCC pin, Presbyterians have a pin. These are groups that meet once a month and describe what's happening within their denomination, what marches, what activities, what protests, what resources are available to them. So I would urge your readers to, if they don't already, to subscribe to Fozna, F-O-S-N-A.org. - We'll send them in that direction. One other thing, we were having lunch before we came over here and you and I talked about your voice on the radio and you have news from Jerusalem each week that you'd like to share with the world. What's your aspiration? - My aspiration is to have a quick blip five minutes, once a week, about a word from Jerusalem, something from Palestinian Christians. And it doesn't have to be political, it can be inspirational, it can be cultural, it can be, for example, about the weather and rain. What does it mean, rain in the Holy Land? What does it mean, bread? What does it mean to have tulips? What happens at Easter? What happens in Ramadan? What happens when these festivities take place? Just a brief five minute thing from voices of Palestinian Christians. We have, I think, I heard once 40,000 radio stations, Christian radio stations in this country, that can afford to put in five minutes once a week, maybe do it several times, to fill in some material that has substance, even to trigger in the minds of average Americans, that Palestinians can be Christian, that Palestinians are a people, that they care about the weather, they care about food, they care about events, they have relations with their Muslim neighbors, they have relations with Israeli Jews, they have problems with permits to get into Jerusalem to pray, they have an occasional curfew where nobody can leave their homes. You know, little things, not terribly political, but to bring into the consciousness of American Christians that there is something called Palestinian, and it's not all terrorism, and it's not all politics, and it's not all violence. - I'm hoping we can find some way to help you have that achieved. - That would be nice if we can. - I've seen your name as founder of at least four, maybe five, maybe I don't know about the other 10, I don't know all these organizations. Just yesterday I was interviewing someone with Nonviolence International, right? Michael Beer was talking about you are one of the founders there, Palestinian Center for the Study of Nonviolence, and so on. Did you really become a lawyer in order to found organizations? - I didn't become a lawyer in order to fund organization, but being a lawyer, I had the tools to fund organizations. You see, in the United States and much of the Western world, you can do anything that's not prohibited by law. In most of the third world countries, it's the opposite. You can't do anything unless you are specifically licensed to do it. So you had to organize and to register to do anything, and that's how the government, whatever it is, would keep control of the people. So being a lawyer and knowing how to create structures and to take advantage of the ambiguities in the law. For example, the fact that East Jerusalem was annexed but not annexed, was brought into Israel, Israeli law and administrations applied to it, but was not officially annexed actually till many years later. So it was part of Israel, but not part of Israel. And that ambiguity, of course allowed the Israelis to oppress people very much. But it also provided an opening for somebody like me as a lawyer to establish organizations in East Jerusalem that would carry out activities in the occupied territories as Israeli organizations. Because Israeli organizations are allowed to operate anywhere in the occupied territories. They don't have to worry about the civil administration or the military government. So I was able to play that game with them. Folks today for a spirit in action, we're speaking with Jonathan Kutab. I've had him on spirit in action one time before, almost four years ago. His recent book is The Truth Shall Set You Free. But four years ago, I interviewed him for his book Beyond the Two-State Solution. And given what you've just talked about, I have a sense, I know you just had a debate with your brother. How did that go? How bad did you beat him? (laughing) I'm his older brother, so I can be as magnanimous as I choose. And I have the final word since I'm the older brother. But no, we had a very respectful discussion where he said, well, maybe it doesn't work, but at least we need to have a state at least for one day. And then we can work out what arrangements we have. - Wait, I'm not understanding that. - Well, he was saying Palestinians need to have a state of their own and to have sovereignty in their state before they enter into an arrangement for two states or confederation or one state. My point was that there can be no Palestinian state, that the Israelis have preempted, have destroyed, have undermined the possibility of a two-state solution, and therefore we need to recognize the reality that Israel is in control of the whole area. We already have one state. The question is what kind of state is it? Is it a state that provides equality to all its citizens? Or is it a state with one superior class that's ordering the lives of everybody and its own interests, not in the interest of the entire population? - And you very clearly have the notion that we've got the worst choice out of those situations right now, but you'd like to advocate for the good one. I wanna ask you also about East Jerusalem because under Donald Trump, there was a decision made to allow Israel to go further than they had about East Jerusalem. Explain what happened there 'cause that's where your law offices are. - Yes, East Jerusalem is one of these areas. It's part of Israel, but not part of Israel. It's annexed, but not fully annexed. It's annexed in the sense that Israel applies Israeli law and administration to it, but they don't give its residents Israeli citizenship. They give them residency, but not citizenship, which means if you leave Jerusalem and you live outside, just outside Jerusalem in Bethlehem, for example, or Ramallah, you could lose your standing and your residency in Jerusalem. So on the one hand, you have more freedom than people in the West Bank, but on the other hand, your situation is much more precarious. You're not living under military rule directly and you're not living under Palestinian authority rule, but you're still living under Israeli rule. So Israel has managed to fragment the Palestinians into those who are citizens, like in the Galilee, in the Nazareth, those who are in Gaza, who are under constant siege and now total genocide and annihilation destruction, those who are in Jerusalem, who are sort of halfway, they are residents, but not citizens, and those who are in the West Bank, who are, again, partly under Palestinian administration, partly under Israeli military government. So the Israelis have fragmented the Palestinian community into different groups and separated them from each other, while Israel continues to control the entire land of Palestine, Israel, whatever you wanna call it, the Holy Land. - There's one class that you didn't specifically name there, and that is the people who are not Jewish who live within Israel, who are citizens, I think, of Israel. I'm not sure if that's the proper name for it or not, and they can be Christians, they can be Muslim, they're Palestinians, perhaps. - Yeah, this group are what's called Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, or Arab Israelis. 20% of the citizens of Israel are not Jewish. They are Palestinian Arabs, but Israel very clearly keeps those separate from people in Jerusalem, or people in Gaza, or people in the West Bank. So they are supposedly citizens of Israel, but they don't have any real power. Every once in a while, they allow one of them to be a judge. Recently, they even allowed them to be stewardesses on El Al, great progress that they are making, but these are 20% of the population of Israel. They have very little power. They haven't allowed them to have a single, university, for example, for them. So they are citizens, but not really full citizens, because Israel is a Jewish state, and they're not Jews. So the state doesn't belong to them. They are part of the state. They are citizens. They have some rights, and the Israelis are always pointing out that unlike South Africa, we have a judge who's an Arab, and we now have a stewardess who's an Arab, and we have them in different areas, but they're not really full, equal citizens. - But they are called citizens. - Oh, they are, and they can vote. - They can vote. - And they can vote for the kinesits, yes. - So if they increase their population sufficiently, that they were 50% of the population, I don't think it'll be allowed in some way, but if they could do that, could they change Israel? - There is a sort of unspoken rule by the Israeli parties that they don't count them in. I mean, when you see Paul figures about Israel, you're talking about Israeli Jews. When they tell you, so many Israelis favor this or that, they're talking about Israeli Jews. So they don't even have them in government until the last administration, when Netanyahu, in order to increase his numbers, allowed some members of Kinesse to Arab into the government as long as they don't really interfere. They get some rights, but they don't really-- - But this is Netanyahu's. - Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's the leftist who don't want them in. Neither the leftist nor the middle class want them in, because they all recognize that Zionism means a Jewish state. And these people are not equal members of the state. They are here as long as they know their place, as long as they don't create any trouble, as long as they don't participate in any important committees, as long as they stay in their areas and don't try to become active members of Israeli societies, that's fine. So 20% of the population is in that. - But you probably can't trust the government organizations that are counting them. - We do have pretty good statistics for Israel, because they have a Ministry of Interior that has very good numbers. - Folks, as I said, Jonathan Kutab is here, his website, Jonathan Kutab.org. You have trouble spelling that? Kutab's not that difficult. Jonathan's the way we often spell it in English, the way my stepson's name is spelled. Kutab is K-U-T-T-A-B. Jonathan Kutab.org, I have the link on northernspiritradio.org. And everybody can spell northernspiritradio.org correctly. And that makes it a little bit easier to get everywhere. Along with all my guests from the past 19 years, I've been doing spirit, inaction, and song of the soul programs. So come to my site, listen to it, listen to my interviews with all kinds of luminaries, like Steve Chase, Jonathan Kutab, George Slakey. Many other people who are doing such wonderful work for healing for the world and helping making this brighter future for us. Of course, we can't find the light if we ignore the dark that's also behind us. So let's just work together to put it behind us as opposed to in our future. When you visit my site, please comment on the radio shows that you listen to. Give us your feedback, give us your direction. We wanna know who we should be interviewing, what topics we should be checking about. And we'd also like to know if your community radio station in your neighborhood wants to run our show. It doesn't cost them to do it, and we'd love to have you added to the 35 or so stations that currently carry our programs. So please do that via northernspiritradio.org, and while you're there, also consider donating. This is full-time work that I've been doing now for 19 years, and I do it only by your funds. We don't accept government funds, we don't accept corporate funds. And the reason we're doing that is because we want to be free to serve our listeners as opposed to serving other competing interests. Anytime you let some big funder in there, they get to pull the chains on you. And so please help us out by donating to us. Please remember to support those community radio stations. We of course also up on all the podcast sites you can listen to us anywhere, and please share our message with other folks. Again, Jonathan Kutab is here. His recent book is The Truth Should Set You Free, which I haven't read. I actually make a point of reading all the books that I interview people about, so I have to be upfront to let you know I haven't seen it yet because I didn't have a time for it to be shipped to me before I headed to Pennsylvania, where I am currently speaking with Jonathan Kutab at the Friends General Conference, gathering at Haverford College. So Jonathan, let's come back to you again. I interviewed you about Beyond the Two-State Solution in 2020, and The Truth Should Set You Free. I'm gonna step away a little bit from the political situation, the citizens, the power, all that. And your storyteller is one of the biggest things in your life, and in this book, which I haven't been able to read yet, and I'm dying to tell me a story or two from it that is just gonna make me irresistibly need to get that book. And if people are gonna get it, where are they gonna get it from? - Well, you can get it from all the regular places, Amazon, Barnes & Nobles. I'll link to at least one or more of those. - You can also get it in audio from Audible Books. - Are you reading the book? - Yes. - All right, I love it. That's the way I like to do it. I do like audiobooks better. But tell me a one or two things from there's just, because I'm sure there's much of your life I have no comprehension of. - One of the things that I've worked on very much was working out a non-violent way of dealing with the conflict, dealing with occupation, dealing with Zionism, dealing with Palestinian nationalism. I've been involved in many non-violent activities. And one of the dramatic stories in the book is when I actually stood in front of some bulldozers that were trying to destroy the property of one of my clients. And this man is Amritar, sort of like a village leader near Bethlehem. And he came to my office and he says, they're going to confiscate my land and set up a settlement. I said, okay, I'll take the case. There are different ways that Israelis use to confiscate the land and each one has to be fought in a different way. They can claim it's absentee property. They can claim it's needed for security purposes. They can claim it's needed for public purposes. They can claim they bought it. They can claim that it's state land. Each is a different one. And I'll help you fight for your land. But what the lawyer does is only 5%. What you need to do is 95%. And he says, what can I do? I said, you have to fight for your land. He says, we don't have weapons. He says, no, no, no. I'm not talking about weapons. I'm talking about actually standing in your land, planting trees in your land, being there when the bulldozers come into your land. And so he says, okay, all right, we'll do that. And after about a month or so, I get a call from him. There's really bulldozers here. They're doing our land. I said, well, remember what I told you. He says, yes, yes, yes, everybody's out there. But please come. I said, okay, so I drop everything from my office. I go out there to the village. I park my car and I'm walking with him from the village. And I reach there and there's nobody. There's just this one bulldozer that's bulldozing through and collecting this pile of rubble. And so I said, I'll stand in front of it and you stand behind it and we won't let it move. And I looked around and there was nobody. There was no press. There were no villagers. It was nothing. And I said, look, why don't you run into town? 'Cause there's no cell service here. Call somebody from the press. Call my brother who's a journalist. Call somebody because, you know, I thought, that's how non-violence works. You need to bring in press. You need to bring in outside people. So now he was no longer standing behind the bulldozer. So the guy revs up the bulldozer and starts moving. And there I was just by myself. Nobody, just me and this settler with a gun and a bulldozer. And I felt like Don Quixote charging a windmill. Exactly, just defending this piece of rubble. And I look at, I says, it's a good day to die. You know, I'm doing what I'm saying. I'm supposed to do. And then I learned something very interesting about non-violence. It doesn't only work when there's press. It works on you and it works on your opponent, even with nobody else around. So as he was battling towards me and I kept moving to protect this pile of rubble, then I got this idea I would turn around, partly 'cause I didn't wanna see my own death. And partly because I think it's hard to kill somebody who's not trying to hurt you or kill you. I knew that if I reached down to grab a stone to throw at him, he would have shot me. No question. But I was standing there. I was just refusing to move, but I was not giving him any threat. And I hear the engine go off. And he says, just wait till I find out what the yelling and screaming, but he was no longer trying to kill me. I found out that the villagers had been there, that they called in the army and the military governor and they came and arrested all the villagers. And all that was left was the settler with the bulldozer until I came and stood in front of him and kept there until the governor came and the army came and they took me and arrested me. I said, I'm not gonna leave until he leaves the land. And so he left to the nearby settlement and they took me in for questioning. - But you weren't actually arrested? - No, no, no. - Have you been arrested before? - Not really. - This sounds like it's really long. - Mostly just visiting. - Mostly just visiting just visiting jail. Because I mean, what was I doing? I was doing anything wrong. I was the lawyer and I was there with my briefcase and with my papers and I was defending my client's land. Well, what charges? So I heard them whispering in Hebrew because they thought I didn't know Hebrew even though I was a lawyer. So, ah, we'll ask him for an I-64 and that will then will arrest him. So I says, we're gonna take your fingerprints and they're gonna stay in our computer until you're dead. So of course you can take my fingerprints. In fact, you can keep them in your computer after I die. I don't mind. 'Cause I knew that if I refused to be fingerprinted, that would have given them an excuse to arrest me. So I got fingerprinted and went home. I didn't get arrested. - Did the rubble get removed? - No, it stayed there and then we had court hearing and another court hearing and another court hearing in the end, I think they took the land. But at least on that day, it was very interesting to learn how non-violence works in practice. - I've found it real interesting. I talked to some folks about two months ago in Eau Claire. These are kind of fundamentalist Christian folks. And I was working on communication with them. And when they talked about Israel, they said, hey, in the Bible, the land is promised to the Jews, that's it. So it's their right to take any land from anybody and anything like that. And yet they're Christians who are saying this, which I think Christians must find themselves in a real bind when Christians like you are being mistreated by the Israeli government. - Yeah, well, I think for most of them, we don't even exist, we're not on their map. When I talk to these people, I say, wait a minute, I'm a child of God, what am I supposed to do? Evacuate my house and turn it over to somebody? Well, I said, where does it say that they can come and take my land? It doesn't say that. They use biblical scripture very selectively. And they jump over the New Testament. They jump over Christ's message, plus this, jump over 2,000 years of history, because Jesus came and Jesus deliberately did two things. As a Jewish rabbi, he removed the idea of a chosen people and children of Abraham. As God can make out of these stones, children of Abraham. He said, for God's soul of the world, not just the Jewish tribe, that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him, even Americans, will not perish but have everlasting life. So Jesus came and took away the idea that it's only the chosen people who are God's people and they are special. He also removed the territorial aspects of the temple and the land. When he spoke to the Samaritan woman, he made it very clear, God is spirit. Those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth. It's not here and it's not in Jerusalem. God exists everywhere. And God loves everybody. So he removed the territoriality and he removed the tribalism and he opened up God's plan of salvation to the whole world, not just to one group and not just to one country. So I tell people, you know, even in the Old Testament, God made it clear, I didn't give you this for yours. The land is mine. You have it temporarily as long as you're obeying me and as long as you're doing the right thing. Otherwise you get kicked out of this land. It's not yours. It's not a deed of the land. It's a temporary possession so that actually we Christians say so that incarnation can happen, so that God can come into this world and live with a particular tribe at a particular time in a particular place called Bethlehem. So when I grow up, it's for us, it's there's nothing really sacred. It's just, this is the tool that God is using to bring his salvation to all mankind. You see, Christian Zionism really defeats the message of Christ and defiles the Old Testament in using their theology and their eschatology to perpetuate injustice. - You speak really powerful, Jonathan, about this. And I just imagine that Christians listening to you have their breath taken away. Have you had that experience? Have you been able to speak to groups of Christian Zionists? - I have, I've even spoken to Kufi groups. And they tell you, we just haven't heard this before. Nobody ever told us. I mean, they all quote you, Genesis 22. I will bless those who bless thee and curse those who curse thee through your seeds will all the nations of the world be blessed. And I say, that's not Israel. It's through Christ. At least that's what Galatians says. Paul says, seed is used in the singular, that is Christ. So the Bible tells you that the seed of Abraham is Jesus Christ. It's through Jesus that all the nations of the world are blessed, not through Netanyahu or the modern day state of Israel. So say, oh, nobody ever told us that. Yeah, because you heard from somebody who has an interest in teaching you a certain theology and giving you a political interpretation of that theology, which is not biblical. - I have the sense though, Jonathan, that you're extremely compassionate. Compassionate for Israelis. You have Israeli friends. You have Israeli peace people you work with. I understand that one of the difficulties is that the Israeli government tries to make sure Palestinians in Israelis don't talk to each other. - Yes, yes, yes. Yes, I have some. And the Israeli idea is half-radah, separation. The apartheid wall is called in Israel, Gedar Halfradah, the wall of separation. So Israeli system is built on apartheid, is built on the concept of separation. And when you talk about meeting together, dealing together, then you're talking about a whole different thing. We need to learn to live together. The idea of a Jewish state for Jews only doesn't work and hasn't worked. And also the idea of a Palestinian Arab state that's only for Arabs where Jews have nothing to do with it doesn't work either. There's seven million Jews living in Palestine today, Israelis. And there's seven million Arab Palestinians living in the same land. They need to find a way to live together in peace, in harmony and in equality and justice, not domination, one group dominating the others. And for that, you need some creative thinking out of the box. Which is why people have to read Beyond the Two State Solution by Jonathan Kutab. Correct. Again, the truth she'll set you free is your latest book. And I am hoping to read it probably next week after I leave this Friends General Conference gathering. Right here, I don't get to sleep as it is. Do you ever get to sleep? I mean, I think it's-- Since October 7, I imagine your life has been nonstop. It has, because October 7 has been really a major event. And the Zionist movement has, I think, a gas-lighted, certainly people in America. First, they lied about what happened before. It's like, as if it came out of the blue, it didn't come out of the blue. It's the result of 16 years of siege of Gaza and apartheid throughout the West Bank and oppression of Palestinians. They lied about what happened on that day. Two things happen on that day. The first is a purely military operation, where they destroyed the fence around them and captured military bases and killed about 340 soldiers and captured another 40 or 50 soldiers to trade them for prisoners, which was a military operation. Now, I'm a pacifist. I don't want to glorify the military aspects of it. But the Palestinians have the right to resist and use violence. They also attacked civilians, which is illegal and wrong and a war crime, to attack civilians, whether it's in their homes or whether it's at a music festival, crazy to hold a music festival right near, basically a concentration camp. But never mind, it's illegal, wrong to do it. So they lied about what happened on that day. Then they lied about what happened since that day. Since October 7 to this day, we are witnessing daily a genocide taking place in front of our eyes. We are witnessing an entire civilian population being totally destroyed, all their universities, their hospitals, their houses of worship, their building structures, never mind their infrastructure, bakeries, pharmacies, everything, is being systematically destroyed. And they're open about it. They say, "There are no innocents here. We have to destroy Gaza. We want a million people to leave their homes and move. We don't care where move, go south." And then they hit them on the way and when they reach south, go to Rafah, and then they hit them in Rafah. This small, tiny area is being bombarded with more weapons, more tonnage of weapons than was dropped in all of World War II on that small piece of area. And somehow the world has to accept that. The distinction between combatants and noncombatants is erased as long as they are connected somehow to Hamas. The distinction between proportionality, when you're going after, let's say, a commander in Hamas or a fighter in Hamas, to destroy everybody around him, in their family, to have AI programs that target people from a list that creates targets every day. They even have an AI program called Daddy's Home to make sure that they kill the target when they are home and kill all their children. To go after, even a leader, to go after their family members. (speaks in foreign language) To kill about 13 people from his family just for being part of his family. The idea of cutting off water and electricity and food. And for that to take place in real time, people can see it every day, and people are not even willing to talk about the ceasefire. No, you should give them a chance to finish their job. It's like horrible that this is taking place in this country. - And yet, Jonathan, you advocate for a single state solution. - Correct. - How do you heal that kind of trauma and division? You have to heal it because people are people, and people can live, and people can live together, and people can learn to forgive, and people can find a solution. Because if you don't, if you live constantly with trauma, you can't live. You need healing, and you need to revitalize people, and people need to have community, and people need to have their children, people need to have schools, and people need to have jobs, and people need to have agriculture and industry. And you can't do that if you have your knee on their neck. So first step, get your knee off my neck. That's a ceasefire. That's all it is. ceasefire is get your knee off my neck. You're killing me. And allow food and water and everything else. That's, you know, I can't breathe. Let me breathe. Let me eat. Let me drink. Let me breathe. Then we'll talk about the solution, and we'll talk about justice, and we'll talk about equality, and we'll talk about all these good things. But at least first put an end to this ongoing genocide. It must stop. It must stop. - Why are you a pacifist? - Ah, couple of reasons, actually. One of them is, I'm convinced it works better than on struggle. It actually is more likely to succeed than on struggle. As a Palestinian, I don't have any hesitation in telling my fellow Palestinians that violence doesn't work. We need to find a different way. And many people keep telling the Palestinians that. I don't hear them telling the Israelis that. They also need to know that violence doesn't work. They've tried violence. They have more power, and more army, and more violence. They even have a nuclear weapon, and they have an arms industry, and they have a thoroughly militarized society. It doesn't work. It hasn't bought them security, and it never will. The lesson of October seven should have been, see it doesn't work. You can't totally oppress people, and think that you can keep them by force of arms under your power. Sooner or later, they'll rebel, and they'll hurt you. And yes, you can turn around, and destroy, and kill, and genocide, and everything else. But in the end, it's not gonna work. It will not buy you security. So I think October seven is a perfect lesson for why violence doesn't work. Weapons don't work. They don't give us liberation as Palestinians, and they don't give Israelis security that they want. So this is a message, which I'm sorry, that they're not hearing that message from Christians. They're not hearing that message from churches. They're not hearing any message, other than maybe a little humanitarian pause, maybe don't kill as many civilians, but finish the job. It's awful. I'm assuming you've had close friends, relatives, who've also been killed, hurt, driven out in this situation. We had some relatives in Gaza, who really suffered a lot, but managed to get out with difficulty. But mostly there are very few Christians in Gaza. There are about 2,000 of them, and I think there's about 800 remaining now. Most of them basically hunkered down in two churches, in Gaza City. The churches were hit also. 16 people were killed in one church and two in another. But yeah, my own personal family, you know, I have not had any. But I think every other Palestinian that I know has had members of their families, especially people from Gaza, have had members of their family killed or wounded. People in the West Bank, mostly every family has had people who have been imprisoned, arrested. Are the Israeli peace organizations helping or doing much? Are they big? There are some Israeli organizations that are helping, and they're not very big, and they're not very many, but they are very courageous, and they're very important. And they deserve our help, and they deserve our support. There is the circle of the bereaved. There is breaking the silence. There are some human rights organizations. But the majority of Israelis, including so-called leftists, have been caught up in this war. Many of them were totally traumatized on October 7, because their entire world collapsed. Their entire doctrine that the army can protect us, that our intelligence is great, that our technology is the best in the world, that our drones and our walls and our technology will protect us. That all failed. It collapsed within a couple of hours. It totally collapsed. And so instead of saying, let's find a better way, they double down. OK, let's destroy, let's kill, let's kill everybody. Let's cut off all their water. We have all the control. Let's cut off their water, their food, their electricity, their fuel. We are powerful. We can do it. And the US is behind us. They'll support us. They'll let us do whatever we want. We don't care about international loan. We don't care about morality. We don't care about any of these things. We can do whatever we want, because the United States will support us. And so we will rely on weapons again, and on brute military force again to give us security. And it will never give Israelis security. The whole situation since October 7, and while before that has been very distressing, very upsetting, I'm wondering if you have any signs of light or hope that you can share. And if you don't, you can just say that. I'm fine with that. No, I'm full of hope. I'm not optimistic. And the short-term things are very bad, and they're going to get worse. But I'm full of hope, because I think it is very clear that the Zionist program has failed. That with every possible advantage on their side, they have not been able to get rid of the Palestinian people. And they can't. And as I said, it's clear now that violence is not the answer, and military power will never give them what they want. The crisis within the Israeli community is huge. It's almost as huge as the suffering within the Palestinian community. But I think we need new thinking. And I think the Israelis need better friends, not friends who give them more weapons and give them impunity and allow them to get away with literally with murder, but friends who tell them this is not the right path. What you're doing is wrong. You're driving drunk, and I'm going to take the keys away from you because it's not helping. What you're doing is not the right thing. They need friends. They desperately need friends, but they don't need enablers, and they don't need allies who will participate in their genocide and let them get away with it. I'm thankful that Jerusalem, that Israel, that Palestine, and that New York have you there, working for a hopeful future. I wish I could do something to take away your exhaustion with this, the frustration. I know that it isn't possible, but I am so thankful for your work, your constant witness, and giving your entire heart and practice to this solution is so wonderful. Thank you so much, Jonathan. Thank you. And again, Jonathan Kutab has been our guest for Spirit in Action website, Jonathan Kutab.org. I've got the link on NorthernSpiritRadio.org, and we'll see you next week for Spirit in Action. The theme music for this program is Turning of the World, performed by Sarah Thompson. Check out All Things Spirit in Action on NorthernSpiritRadio.org. Guests, links, stations, and a place for your feedback, suggestions, and support. Thanks for listening. I'm Mark Helpsmeet, and I hope you find deep roots to support you to grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along, and our lives will feel the echo of our evening.