Spirit in Action

Navy Commander for Peace - Leah Bolger

After 20 years in the Navy, Leah Bolger retired into full-time work as a peace activist. Leah is active almost everywhere, is the first female president of the national Veterans for Peace, works on the World Beyond War project, acts as Secretary of Defense for the Green Shadow Cabinet, coordinates the Drones Quilt Project, and chairs the VFP Drones Working Group.

Duration:: 55m
Broadcast on:: 24 Apr 2016
Audio Format:: other

[music] Let us sing this song for the healing of the world That we may hear as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along And our lives will feel the echo of our healing [music] Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred food in your own life. Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world That we may dream as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along Because of my remaining prejudices, I'm still sometimes surprised, and thankfully so When I run into those who volunteered for the military in war And who are now perhaps among our greatest witnesses and workers for peace And we have one of them with us today for Spirit in Action Leah Bulger served 20 years in the U.S. Navy She got her master's degree from the Naval War College in National Security and Strategic Affairs And she left active duty in 2000 with the rank of Commander She recently served as the President of the National Veterans for Peace Organization His part of the Green Shadow Cabinet has been active with Code Pink And is very much involved currently in the World Beyond War Movement So, we'll talk about this work and much more As Leah Bulger joins us now by phone from Corvallis, Oregon Welcome Leah to Spirit in Action Well, I'm pleased that you invited me, it's my pleasure to be with you I'm excited to have you here today, especially following up on my visit a couple weeks ago With your former Vice President of the National Veterans for Peace, Math, Southworth Really an impressive and still young voice for peace How did you connect with Matt? Well, I knew of his work, he works for the Prince Committee National Legislation Right up there on Capitol Hill I am one of the people in Veterans for Peace who kind of believes in the inside-outside strategy And that you need to work inside with the lawmakers and the decision makers and the policy makers But also outside putting pressure on those people with demonstrations and letter writing and that kind of thing So, I knew of Matt's work as a lobbyist and also he was a recent veteran And also Veterans for Peace is always looking for younger veterans to join our organization To be the future of the organization So, he just had a lot of qualifications that any's a natural leader, he's very articulate He can certainly express the message of peace So, it was just a real easy choice to make to try to get him on the board He's getting ready to leave the board now, he's received a promotion at the Prince Committee on National Legislation So, his time on the board is up, but he's still deeply in the trenches of peace activism and following the Quaker tradition You served in the U.S. Navy for 20 years starting in 1980 with Specialties in National Security and Strategic Affairs And I can hardly think of a more impressive and industrious work of her peace And for some people that seems like a strange transition Help us understand your journey and what led you to make a lifetime career in the military It's kind of a long answer and I'll try to make it succinct But you have to kind of go back to the very beginning of why I joined the military in the first place And it was not out of a sense of I want to go protect this country or I want to fight terrorists or I want to be a patriot Or frankly, it was very simply I needed a job and I grew up in a very small town of about 13,000 people And I had lived there since I was in high school and then I went to college in the same small town And I needed a job and which is why so many young people joined the military They joined because they need the opportunity for a career and they don't have money for college Or they grew up in some kind of environment where college isn't really an option I just met a young man this weekend from Chicago He told me that he wants to be an archaeologist, but there's absolutely no way that he sees that he can go to college to be an archaeologist So those are the kind of people, young people that live in rural areas That don't have a lot of money in their school districts to have advanced placement programs or pre-college courses And people who live in underserved neighborhoods Those are the kind of people that the military prays on You will not find very many people joining the military who have the opportunity to go to college Or have some other viable career opportunity available for them When you look back at that and you see why I joined the military It wasn't out of any kind of political ideology, it was for the job And so I stayed in the job for 20 years and I was an officer because I had my degree before I joined But my degree is in fine arts, so it wasn't where I could go get a job in commercial art or teaching or something like that I really had not a marketable degree So I stayed in, to me it was an interesting job, every couple years I changed jobs, locations I had four overseas tours in Iceland, Bermuda, Japan and Tunisia I was sent to language school to learn French before I went to Tunisia I was sent to graduate school, I was a military fellow at MIT for a year So I had a wonderful variety of experiences for my 20 years But I was never placed in the position of what I call a crisis of conscience type of decision Where I had to aim a gun at somebody or be a part of actual killing or combat or that kind of thing When I joined in 1980 women could not serve in a combat position So my jobs were basically desk jobs All officers are primarily managers of people and assets or a combination of those two things And so even though some of the work that I did was operational, I did some anti-submarine warfare work It wasn't where I was in the trenches with a gun fearing for my life or having to make the, like I said, the crisis of conscience choice to shoot at somebody So it was fairly easy for me to go through 20 years of active duty service without really thinking about the big picture The military machine that I was supporting and the imperialist militaristic aggressiveness of our country's foreign policy And so also, you know, when I joined in 1980 we were in the middle of the Cold War It wasn't as if I were joining something that we were at war what I would consider to be an illegal or immoral war like I do Afghanistan or Iraq So it didn't seem all that contradictory to my own political beliefs at that time You know, I think throughout my 20 years I definitely thought of myself kind of as an odd man out I didn't always agree with my peers on politics I can remember, well, at the War College when I was a student at the Naval War College I wrote papers on the importance of the United Nations and I wrote a paper on conflict termination You know, I was more left-leaning I think than my peers So I never really fit into the mold of what you think of as a career military person I stayed in because of the economic benefit to myself And then I didn't really get involved actively until I got out of the military in 2000 That's another story I don't know if you want me to go into that about how I became an activist But I'll be happy to show that too if you'd like to hear that story And I do of course want to hear about that but I'd like to make sure you add the discussion How the fact that you exited the military in 2000 dovetails with your journey Therefore you left the year before the attack in the Twin Towers and before we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq Given your current passion for peace, do you think you would have been able to go along with the invasions as part of the military machinery? Well, you know, I'd like to think that I would have been principled enough to say I can no longer support this A woman who I consider my mentor, Colonel Anne Wright Many of your listeners probably know of her work But she was in the Army for 19 years and then she joined the diplomatic corps And she was a Foreign Service Officer for a number of years And she resigned her position at an embassy right before we invaded Iraq She did so, she said I can no longer support the policy of my country as an ambassador And I have to resign at a principle So, you know, I would like to think that I would have done that It's hard to say honestly what I would have done I had 20 years in in the year 2000 and I was eligible for retirement benefits It's easy to say and it's easy to encourage active duty people to resist Or to get out or to confront the military system It's easy to encourage that and to say yes, that's the right thing to do But it's very difficult when you consider that for a lot of people in the military I told you, you know, they join for economic reasons So they join when they're 18 and then, you know, in a few years they meet somebody, they get married and now they have children And they need the healthcare benefits, they need the insurance They need the housing benefits, they need the salary It's very hard to talk somebody into or say the right thing to do is to get out when somebody has 10, 11, 15 years in And they're halfway or three quarters of the way to retirement and benefits So, I'm glad I didn't have to make that decision I would like to think that I would have done something principled But in all honesty, I can't say that, you know, if we had invaded Iraq before I had my 20 years in Would I have gotten out? I don't know I don't think I came about to my principal position that I have now for a few years after I got out And I started learning more about our aggressive policies And, you know, frankly, the whole time I was in the military You know, and I was in active duty service when we invaded Iraq for the first time in 1991 But I was stationed in Japan at that time And I remember watching the shock in awe, as it was described, on Japanese television And completely removed from what was happening Now, I didn't feel like I was a part of that So, I think it's easy to take a principled stand once you're removed from it And to say, "Oh, yeah, this is what you should do" But I do think that had I been in the position, you know, like I said, women couldn't be in combat So, I would never be in a position where I had to actually shoot somebody or drop bombs on somebody I don't think I would have been able to do that had I been ordered to do so But frankly, I was never pushed to that decision, so it's, anyway, I'm trying to be honest, Daryl I'm still not sure I understand what took you from a dutiful soldier to a committed peace activist Was it gradual, or were there clear turning points? Well, I actually had a pivotal moment in my life where I can pinpoint exactly when I got the kick in the gut that I needed Or the kick in the pants or whatever And it was through an exhibit, an American Friends Service Committee, the Quaker Group, had an exhibit called Eyes Wide Open And I bet many of your listeners have seen this exhibit, but it's a consist of rows and rows of military army boots Lined up as if the people were in the formation Or as if they were tombstones at Arlington Cemetery, very precisely lined up in rows And attached to those boots were dog tags, and sometimes mementos, flowers, or pictures, or teddy bears, or different things There's something about seeing those boots which humanized the cost of war for me And then in addition to the military, American military boots, there were also a piles of civilian shoes To represent the Iraqis that had been killed, children's sandals, and men's shoes, and women's flats And it just, I had a visceral reaction to that exhibit And I was crying, I was just, it was something of a real wake-up call to me And I had a reaction to it that really moved me from being just somebody who said they were against war Who said they were against the Iraq war, and to a moment where I said I have to become active I have to do something about this And that was the start of my activist career, and that was about 2005, I believe that I saw that exhibit That moment really pushed me into where I am today And I still have a lot to learn about the truth of American imperialism, American military aggression Because the truth is that we were doing all kinds of militarily aggressive and illegal things In South America, Central America, all the time I was on active duty, but I knew nothing about it Or I was oblivious to it, and certainly it wasn't focused on in American media Or, you know, I'm a product of public education, and I didn't learn about these things in my schooling So I think I'm typical of a lot of Americans who are only exposed to what they see on American television, American newspapers And are not especially inquisitive or curious or thoughtful about finding out the truth Because it doesn't really affect them You know, and now that I know that the media, the American media, is a huge corporate entity that has deep ties with the American government And that many companies or weapons manufacturers are actually owned by the same companies that own the media It's become more obvious to me that you have to work very hard to know the truth as an American Because your government and the American media is not going to tell you the truth And that's why it's so important for people like you Independent media folks to help reveal the truth And have interviews with people that can speak from an inside view And are not going to be talking about the same things that you're going to see on corporate sponsored media I want to mention Leah that I started producing Spirit in Action back in 2005 And one of the first few programs I did was on the Eyes Wide Open exhibit Which I visited at National Quick Gathering I go to each year So it feels like a circle being completed to hear how that exhibit was so influential for you That's way cool The thing that led me to track you down and contact you Included an impassioned talk you gave at a session of the Congressional Committee Which got you hauled out the door But especially because I saw that you were the first female president of the National Vets for Peace organization Obviously, somewhere along the way you got connected up with them Were you a longtime member? Yes, actually, I was a do's pain member of Veterans for Peace but I was an large member I didn't belong to any chapter because there was no chapter near me And I was wearing my Veterans for Peace t-shirt at a peace event Over in Albany, Oregon I live about 12 miles away in Corvallis And I met somebody there from the Portland, Oregon chapter of Veterans for Peace Which at the time was the only chapter in Oregon, only the F.P. Chapter in Oregon And he noticed my shirt and he said, you know, you should start a chapter where you live And so I did, I started a chapter, it was chapter 132 in Corvallis I became the president of the chapter for three years, I was the president And then I ran for the National Board of Veterans for Peace And I became the National Vice President for three years And then I was reelected to the board and I was served as the National President in 2012 And so it's just sort of grown from that And then different actions I've participated in And civil disobedience and things that drawn some media attention And then doing interviews and speaking, I do a lot of public speaking And it just sort of grows and the more you get involved The more you get involved, kind of snowballs So yeah, now I'm involved in a number of projects I'm still involved with Veterans for Peace, although I'm no longer on the National Board I'm the chair of a working group for a Veterans for Peace about drones Opposing both weaponized drones that are responsible for killing Thousands of innocent people in Yemen, in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia But also we're very concerned about surveillance drones that are being used to violate Well, they're not being used intentionally to violate civil liberties But they're certainly violating our First Amendment and our Fourth Amendment rights by their use The drones working group sees both of these kinds of drones as problematic And we're working very hard to oppose them I got really involved with the drones activism when I was part of a delegation that went to Pakistan last October It was organized by Code Pink, which I really have the greatest admiration for that organization They're currently, in fact, many members of Code Pink are meeting in Switzerland right now With lots of international women and women's groups to talk about women's role in ending war in Syria And that, you know, so many decisions are made about war and peace That don't consider women's voices, women's opinions, or women's needs You know, at Code Pink is a great organization and I was part of this delegation That met firsthand with the victims of combat drone strikes in Pakistan It was quite eye-opening for me to see the devastation that these drones were causing And the complete indifference of the American government, my government, as to the damage they were causing And not just indifference, but denial of responsibility for these deaths and the harm it was doing Not just physically and killing people, but psychologically And having this 24-hour surveillance system and people not knowing when a drone was going to strike And it's just caused so much damage to the people who are under, you know, in their sites, those drone sites We could do a whole hour talking about drones, but that's one issue I've been working on And then out of the drones issue came another project I'm working on Which I hope some of your listeners will want to participate in, and that's the drones quilt project I got an email about some British women who were making quilt blocks to use as kind of a visual petition To take to Parliament in England Each of the quilt blocks has the name of a victim of weaponized drones on it So they were not only memorializing those people who had been killed But then using these blocks as kind of a visual petition And so I sent them a quilt block with a name on it And then I got the idea that, you know, I knew so many anti-drones activists in the US I thought we have plenty of people that could make our own quilts And so I started the project here in the US, and now we have put together four quilts We're working on the fifth one right now We also accompanying the quilts are some informational panels, I call them They have some factual information about the harm that the drones are causing And educating people a little bit about drones And then the third component of the exhibit is a two-page handout about anti-drones Resources, organizations and websites and tools that you can use And then the other side of the handout is about 20 ideas, take action ideas that individuals can do To work to oppose drones And my hope is that the drones quilt project exhibit will tour around the country And become something like the ice-wide opening exhibit The drones project exhibit right now, it has been displayed in about six or eight cities Right now it's in a public library in Arlington, Virginia Next month it's going to be going to Vassar College in upstate New York I'm hopeful that eventually I will have enough quilts and enough information panels That it can be traveling around the world Just as the ice-wide open exhibit did in several places at once And hopefully in other countries even To kind of make people aware of the human cost of the drones Through these names and kind of personalizing the deaths Instead of saying so many thousand people have been killed But when you see the name of the person That will maybe bring about something of the kind of reaction that I felt When I saw those boots So if people will go to the -- there's a website for the Drones Quilt Project It's dronesquiltproject.wordpress.com And on that website are instructions on how to make a quilt block You don't have to be talented in sewing or quilting or anything You can paint the name on You can do all kinds of things And then so I need people to make quilt blocks And I also need people to volunteer to host the exhibit in their town That would be really great if I could have people just lined up Back to back to back to send the quilts to And so we can really educate the public about that Thanks for helping me promote the Drones Quilt Project And just a reminder to all our listeners You can find the link to the Drones Quilt Project at WordPress.com Or you can just follow the link I have on NortonSpiritRadio.org Just look for the Spirit in Action interview with Leah Bolger And check out the bonus excerpts with her that we can't fit into this broadcast There's riches in them, they're hills But you were saying, Leah, that you made this startling transition From full-time Navy Commander to, as far as I can see, a full-time and beyond piece activist I mean, you seem to be an incredible ball of energy with what, with your work For vets for peace, code pink, the Drones Working Group, the Green Shadow Cabinet All of your speaking, the World Beyond War Project And I'm just scratching the surface It looks to me like you retired only to work even harder and more for peace Yeah, that's ironic, isn't it? And I love to tell people that because I spent 20 years in the military I can now be a full-time volunteer piece activist Because I can afford to live off my military pension So, you know, I love the irony in that And when I was at MIT, I was supposed to be the military, or the Navy's expert MIT has military fellows in all four branches of the service And we were supposed to be the brain trust of our respective services But I think I got a lot more out of that fellowship Than I gave Because I was allowed to audit classes at MIT and Harvard And Tufts and any of the Boston area schools And so, I just audited all kinds of classes Like comparative religion and economics and women's studies And it was just wonderful to, you know, I'd hear somebody speak at Harvard in the morning And somebody else at MIT at night and Cornell West was still teaching at Harvard at the time And, you know, talking to him, it was just an incredible experience for me But it was just pretty overwhelming all of the knowledge And just in that kind of academic, intellectual environment Where you could just absorb everything So, I don't know if the folks at the Strategic Studies Program at MIT I thought I was a very good fellow, but I certainly enjoyed my time there I got a lot out of it, yeah And that was one of the things, too, like I said, it was no reason for me really to get out of the military I mean, they sent me to language school, I was traveling, I went all over the world traveling And my master's degree, and, you know, I got a lot out of it personally That, and I pursued some other career, I don't know what would have happened I want to step back to your comments about drones And I've had other vets talking about drones, including Matt Southworth just a couple weeks ago And Elliot Adams a few years ago Still, I have to wonder on the perspective you and they must have as soldiers I mean, any soldier on the field knows that if a drone weren't out there doing the surveillance and attacks That it would mean risking a soldier, and while people in the US can turn a blind eye to non-American civilian casualties The US public is pretty squeamish about the deaths of our men and women So there must be some kind of tension there between the downside of risking foreign civilians as collateral damage And risking the lives of your compatriots in the military service No, for me, this is really an easy issue, you know, it really goes back to the whole Just War principle And is it really possible to take a life to save a life? And can we justify drones because they save American lives In the same way could we justify Hiroshima because it supposedly saved lives I don't think there's any way you can justify the killing of people to save other people That doesn't make sense to me at all It's not an either or, it's either an American or it's a Pakistani It doesn't have to be either one And the American drones and the American soldiers should both be back home And they shouldn't be fighting and killing people of other nations who've done nothing to harm this country So, you know, no, this is not a moral conundrum for me at all I want to remind our listeners that you're tuned in to an interview with recent vets for peace National President Leah Bulger for Spirit in Action I'm Mark Helpsmeet and this is a Northern Spirit Radio production on the web at northernspiritradio.org With more than eight and a half years of programs available for your free listening and download Links to and info on our guests There are comments also and please add your own when you visit It's up to you to make this two-way communication We're doing our part, your comments will help us know your mind, your suggestions, your feedback There's also a button and a mailing address for those who care to donate This is full-time work and your donation makes it possible But even more, remember to donate your time and money to your local community radio station An invaluable, invaluable resource of music and news that you get nowhere else sadly So, remember to help them out and help Northern Spirit Radio if you can Today's spirit and action guest is Leah Bulger After 20 years in the Navy, rising to commander, she left the military in 2000 And is now an incredibly hardworking activist with so many projects and organizations That's for peace, as we've discussed But I want to zero in on another one, something that I understand is front and center for you currently Leah The website is worldbeyondwar.org It's the World Beyond War Project This site is filled with analysis and riches so much to think about so deep to go There's no way Leah that we can deal reasonably with even a fraction of the content there But I do want to follow one topic And it's follow up to what we've already been talking about One area of discussion on the World Beyond War website is about the immorality of war And just to be clear, where I'm coming from I'm Quaker, and not surprisingly, I'm even a pacifist So, I don't support killing of civilians or even of soldiers But I do understand the temptation, the motivation of saying I have to do this to protect my friends My countrymen and women, the people from my state, my city, especially my family I understand that, if it came down to it My son's life seems more important to me than the life of another 27-year-old man from the other side Like in the movie, Sophie's Choice, many people perceive it as a choice of us versus them I need to make your best choice among horrible options And a lot of people will say that the life of an American is more important Than a life of some foreign person we don't know My son or daughter or wife being more important than someone else's son/daughter wife How do you talk about that moral tension? Well, I think that's really an important question But the way you frame it though is if it's an either/or It doesn't have to be the life of your wife versus the life of a Pakistani wife Why does anybody have to be killed? And that's what we're saying in World Beyond War We're saying that war is, you know, to quote Edwin Starr What is it good for? Absolutely nothing There's no good that comes from war It cannot solve problems It's only a temporary stopgap till the next war happens And the harm that it does greatly exceeds any amount of what you could claim to be positive results It's just like, you know, I was saying before about Hiroshima How in the world can you justify killing hundreds of thousands of people who've done nothing? It doesn't make any sense So we're saying that in World Beyond War And sometimes I get the question of, well, why are you creating another peace group? We have so many peace groups out there Well, you know, in veterans' peace we have working groups We have group on drones We have a group on depleted uranium You know, we have different aspects of war that are symptoms of war Or results of war But the real problem is that we need to abolish war itself War is the problem And it's not, you know, if we just got rid of the F-35 Or if we just got rid of drones, everything would be okay The idea for World Beyond War came from a peace activist David Swanson He's written several books and David Hart saw a renowned peace activist And they said, you know, it's not about we need to stop an attack on Iran Of course we need to stop an attack on Iran But we need to make the idea of war so abhorrent That, you know, people wouldn't even consider attacking another country And David, in his book, he's written several books But the most recent book, it's called On Ending More It talks about, you know, it was not that long ago That in the United States we had slavery And people were property And blacks could not own property Women could not own property Blacks were property But today, and it was not that long ago That our country believed that And it was accepted, normal practice, to have slaves And today, the idea of human slavery is absolutely abhorrent We would never consider that to be acceptable today So David and David think that we need to come to a point where war Can never be considered as an acceptable option Because that's the amount of harm it causes is never justified And I'm sure a lot of people listening may well say That's fine on a theoretical plane, but in reality They doubt that we could actually make that incredible leap From war, as accepted norm to near universal abhorrence of war On the world beyond war.org website You mentioned an example that I had neglected to notice previously Dualing that exemplifies exactly that kind of amazing progress Which is possible Right, that's another example that David uses in his book Is about dualing So the point is, yes, things that seemed absolutely normal Or impossible to change Have changed over the years And in fact, in a relatively short amount of time Then the other point that David Swanson makes And he has another book called "When the World Outlawed War" And in it, he talks about the Kellogg-Briand Pact Kellogg was an American senator, I believe, from Wisconsin And I may get that wrong, but he was the American And Breon was a French statesman And together they wrote the Kellogg-Briand Pact Which was a treaty that said that war is outlawed That all the nations who signed on to this Pact would promise not to resort to war to solve their differences And so the world actually came to this agreement Following World War I The problem with the Kellogg-Briand Pact Was that there was no enforcement mechanism built into it And so when World War II came along The Kellogg-Briand Pact kind of dismissed And then ever since World War II We've been, you know, just sort of in a perpetual state of war Of one level or another So David's thought is that, well, we did it once Why can't we do it again? And so the point of World War is to engage not just Americans And American peace groups, but international groups To put our minds together and think about strategies that we can use To non-violently bring about the change that we want to see And it's not just peace groups that we're recruiting We are saying it's going to take everybody So World Beyond War is actively seeking, outreaching, to academic groups Well philanthropists and business people, corporate people Environmentalists, faith-based groups All kinds of people who can agree that the world would be a better place If we didn't solve our differences by dueling Or by wars which are something like a duel except on a nation against nation So with people who have no grievance against each other They're just part of the system In any cases, they're part of the system because of economic reasons Because they have no alternative And so this is things that we need to change You know, people need to be able to have good jobs That are not part of the war machine There's so many problems that are bound up in wars and militarism Environment, you know, the wars are the biggest contributor To environmental problems and climate change and fuel consumption Than any other entity And that's just one little example Our efforts so far We're actually going to be launching World Beyond War On the International Day of Peace this year That's September 21st, 2014 Right now, there is a website which you mentioned worldbeyondwar.org We are in that process now of just sort of building our base of people Outreaching to folks By letting them know what the idea is And to get everybody on one page And as the outreach coordinator for World Beyond War I have been so encouraged by When I'm doing the research on finding organizations that we might want to outreach to Of finding the hundreds And really thousands of organizations Who are all trying to do the same thing Right now, everybody is doing good work But we're not coordinated We're not doing massive, collective, coordinated actions That could really have some impact So can you imagine if we could get significant numbers of people All over the world to participate in a coordinated action You know, a one day strike Or, you know, at a certain time Everybody goes to lobby their elected officials Whether they're in the US or another country Or, you know, all kinds of actions That if we harness the potential that's out there Through this collective World Beyond War I think we could be very, very powerful But right now, we're separate And we're all trying to do the good work But as in unions, you know, we're so much stronger together And that's the point of World Beyond War To try to harness the collective potential power Of all these groups that want war to be abolished There are a lot of issues raised And dealt with by the World Beyond War But I'm sure that a number of questions obviously remain One is, can you really do this all at once? How do you transition from what we have To what we want to head to? Because if all of us good guys put down our weapons Won't the war-intrenched bad guys just come out laughing and shooting But perhaps an even bigger question is How can we pull together all of the divergent groups Of potential anti-war folks behind this movement? I'm sure you've realized that liberal-leaning folks Are among the hardest segments of our society to organize They make herding cats look obvious How likely is it that you'll be able to unify folks For this truly wonderful purpose? Well, it's a very important question you raise And I am certainly not saying that World Beyond War The steering committee of World Beyond War Is going to be making these decisions and saying Everybody shall do this on this day We are hoping to bring together all of these great minds And energy to strategize and to think of ways That we can work in a coordinated effort We don't have the answers, but we're hoping that if we get people together We can seek the answers so we can create the answers And develop the systems to actually flex our power But I know what you're saying I just came from a weekend conference Of people who are trying to connect the issues Of climate change and poverty and environmental issues And military issues and economic issues And trying to connect the dots and saying We all need to support each other to further all of our causes Because there is a connection between all of them But the problem is People have a special interest in their own issue And that's what they want to You know, I talked to the same young man I talked to that wanted to be an archaeologist And didn't have many many for college He's 18 years old He sees no options for himself He's not concerned particularly about stopping wars His concern is about having a clean, dry place to sleep at night So here's the hierarchy of needs saying When those aren't being met You can't focus on something that seems abstract to you You know, people dying in Pakistan He doesn't have the time or energy to worry about that Because his own personal needs aren't being met So even though I tried to explain to him You know, if we took the money that we are pouring into the war machine And put it into housing and job training And healthcare, we could have everything we want and need So it's just a matter of priorities We're not a bankrupt country, we have plenty of money We're just putting it in the wrong place So, you know, I don't know if you really got that or not But that's, I think key is to helping people understand That these issues are connected And we're hoping that through World Beyond War We will have people involved that are from these different communities But we'll see that war is something that we can agree on And that if we could end war, it would help all these other areas in significant ways An important aspect of this spirit and action program Is to draw on the religious or spiritual insights and motivations of my guests Both the positive and the negative experiences To make them visible to our listeners I figure that any idea or work that transcends very narrow self-interest Is what I would call spiritual So I'd like to know what your religious spiritual past or present are Where did your ideas and beliefs come from And what role do they play in your advocacy? I'm not sure I'm going to give you the answer you were expecting or the answer you might want I consider myself an atheist I'm a member of the local Unitarian Fellowship I participate, to some extent, in the work of the Unitarian Fellowship In my peace activism and justice activism But I don't know, I don't label it as spiritual for me It's just, I don't know, maybe I shy away from that term Because I've never really believed in God, I was not brought up in a church I went to, oh gosh, when I was really small, like kindergarten age I remember going to Sunday school in some Christian's church I don't even remember what denomination And then when I was older, you know, 12 or 13 or something My family went to a UU fellowship in Kansas City But then I didn't go again anywhere until I came here to Corvallis And I joined the UU fellowship here So to me, it's a matter of right and wrong and humanity And fairness and things that I get outraged over The things that touch me, and maybe you can call that spiritual To me, I'm not particularly comfortable with that That's just not the way I identify myself But it's just a matter of fairness and what is right and what is wrong So I try my best to dedicate my life now to doing what I think is right And what creates a better world So I don't really label it as spiritual I don't really see it as having roots in spiritualism Or some aspect of religion Hey, I'm fine with whatever you do or don't call yourself religiously or spiritually Some of my best friends call themselves atheists I do think that the proof, though, is in the pudding And the great work I see you doing is the most important thing I need to see And from that good fruit, I know that the tree that bears it is a good one And I just want to know what your fertilizer is But I did want to ask you a couple of other things about World Beyond War In casting about I came upon some pictures posted via World Beyond War I've got a link to them on nerdinspiritradio.org And those pictures were, to say the least, graphic I think that one of the things that aroused opposition to the Vietnam War Was that we were seeing nightly news pictures and videos of what was happening there But mostly, Afghanistan and Iraq have been less visible to us Why do you include such gruesome pictures on the web? Well, you know, I think that pictures are so powerful When we went to Pakistan, we had big posters made of the children who had been killed in Pakistan And you cannot look at that and not be moved It's just like, you know, the boots, they had that effect on me Because they represented humans, and I was able to make the connection between the boot and the human But when you actually see the pictures of the human, you can't deny it It's in your face, and it does affect you And I think that the American media, which censors these kinds of things Because, oh, nobody wants to see that or it upsets people That's exactly why we need to see it And that's exactly why we need to talk about these things I remember, and not that long ago, a few months ago, when the United States was contemplating bombing Syria Because, and I heard Debbie Wasserman Schultz, a congresswoman from Florida, say that she just could not get out of her mind The picture that she had seen of dead Syrian children who were lined up and they were swabbed and white cloth But they had been killed purportedly by the Assad regime And she just couldn't get that picture out of her mind And so that was the reason she was advocating that we bombed Syria I just wish Debbie Wasserman Schultz would look at some pictures of dead children the United States has killed And there are thousands of them, but we never see those pictures because we don't want to know We don't even acknowledge that we've killed, you know, the United States doesn't even keep track of the number of civilians that we kill anymore General Tommy Franks very famously said, "We don't do body counts" During the Vietnam War, that was something that was considered to be a measure of our success And it was on the news every night, how many people we killed And then obviously we're winning because we were killing more than we were dying But now we don't talk about the number of civilians we killed We call them collateral damage, and oh gosh, we just can't avoid that But that's just preposterous, yes you can avoid killing innocent people If you avoid killing people, that's the bottom line So, you know, to say, well, we're going after insurgents, or we're going after terrorists, or we're going after extremists They have all these different labels that they call "the bad guys" But the fact is that none of those people have ever been proven to do anything that would merit execution You know, even somebody who they said, "Well, there's a very high level Taliban operative or al-Qaeda operative" Well, we don't know that We don't know that just being a member of a group is crime enough to warrant execution And the truth is that Geneva conventions require that charges be brought against someone It requires evidence to be brought against someone The Geneva conventions require that if you kill someone, you have to have positive identification That that person is an enemy, and a bona fide enemy And, you know, we, this country is responsible for killing thousands of people And countries we're not even at war with It's just beyond the pale how we can get away with this If the United States were just abide by international law We would be making great strides in improving our foreign relations And, I don't know, I get really worked up about this Because the American, and I started talking about how the American people don't see the truth The American people don't realize that we are not even a member of the international criminal court We refuse to sign on to that It's the United States and Israel and Sudan are the only countries that have refused outright to join the international criminal court So, we want it both ways, we say, "Oh, these people need to be brought to justice" But we don't say they should be brought to justice through the actual judicial system that's in existence Because we want to take care of that ourselves according to our own sense of what's right or wrong or who's good or bad And that has just got to end It's just absolutely reprehensible the way we execute foreign policy You know, Leah, you absolutely inspire me, and you exhaust me with all the activism you're doing I want to touch on one more aspect of your activism And that is as part of what's called the Green Shadow Cabinet I see that there are all kinds of well-known or lesser-known names who are part of the group Including Patch Adams and Jill Stein, who was the Green Party presidential candidate in 2012 And Gar Alpervitz, who I've had on Spirit and Action and who impressed me greatly People can check this out at greenshadowcabinet.us But why don't you tell us a bit about it? It looks like an impressive undertaking Right, well the Green Shadow Cabinet is a project that came about from the folks at Jill Stein and Sherry Honkelow Who ran as president and vice president on the Green Party ticket in 2012 And their idea was to create a shadow cabinet to create a kind of a vehicle for dissenting opinion And to create policy statements or position statements about what we would do If we were the Secretary of State or the Secretary of Treasurer or the Secretary of Labor And so the Green Shadow Cabinet is a whole compilation of dozens and dozens of people who are experts in their field Who work together to draft policy statements about a third option Besides the Republican and Democratic option Because we think that neither of those two parties has the best interest of the American people at heart And so our policies, and we issue statements, we speak at different groups And we're part of panel discussions and that's what the Green Shadow Cabinet is So if you go to the website greenshadowcabinet.us You'll see all kinds of statements and you can get on the newsletter in the mailing list So that you'll get weekly updates And we'd love to get input from other people who think that they'd like to see us take a stand on this or that Or are there opinions on what we have taken a stand on? That's what it is As I've said before in this interview, Leah Bulger, you are such a dynamo of energy for such important causes I kind of wonder what your power source is Maybe thousands of ever ready batteries It definitely blows my mind I've named a few of the groups you're active with But in Googling your name, I found what must be almost hundreds of vehicles for your energy Or do I over exaggerate? Well, you are exaggerating a little bit But, you know, I sometimes have to pare down And I used to be involved in other things I used to be on the executive board of my local legal women voters I used to be heavily involved in Planned Parenthood But, you know, there are so many issues and only so many hours in the day But I am fortunate that I can afford to devote myself to being, I consider myself a full-time activist This is the work I do now And I don't have children at home, I don't have a job I have to get up for And so, I have the luxury of being able to spend my days doing interviews and writing articles And doing presentations and all this work entails So, it's my privilege to do this kind of work And I thank you for recognizing it There are lots of people out there that do more than I do though So, this is what I do now and I'm proud of the work I'm doing But we need everybody to do however much they can And not, of course, not everybody can do what I can do And not everybody can go get arrested in front of Congress And that's fine, we all just do what we can So, that's what I appeal to people to do what you can And even if it seems small to you, it's very, very important We've been speaking with 20-year Navy veteran and recent national president for Vets for Peace Active with World Beyond War, the Green Shadow Cabinet, and also much more Follow links to these groups from NortonSpiritRadio.org Leah, thank you so much for your service both in the military and in the peace movement You are clearly passionate, thoughtful, and dedicated Putting your life on the line for our country and for all of humanity It's an honor to know you and thank you so much for joining me for Spirit in Action Well, thank you so much for contacting me and for doing the interview I really appreciate it and I'm pleased to speak with you anytime The theme music for this program is Turning of the World, performed by Sarah Thompson This Spirit in Action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us And our guests on our website, northernspiritradio.org Thank you for listening, I am your host Mark Helpsmeet And I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light This is Spirit in Action With every voice, with every song We will move this world along With every voice, with every song We will move this world along And our lives will feel the echo of our healing (upbeat music)