Spirit in Action

Researching Sustainability: The GLBRC & Wisconsin Energy Institute

John Greenler is part of 2 institutions looking for energy ways forward in Wisconsin, the Great Lakes Bioenergy Research Center and the Wisconsin Energy Institute, where John works as director of education & outreach. In addition to these professional roles, John is co-owner of a CSA called Zephyr Farm, which keeps him grounded in hands-on sustainable alternatives as well.

Duration:: 55m
Broadcast on:: 24 Jan 2016
Audio Format:: other

[music] Let us sing this song for the healing of the world That we may hear as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along And our lives will feel the echo of our healing [music] Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred food in your own life. Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world That we may dream as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along There are many, many ways to care for our world, and sometimes that happens when we take specific actions But we also play a big part in the potential good of the world When we do the research and share the information that prepares us for a more sustainable future Two organizations doing that, in my neck of the woods, Wisconsin are the Great Lakes Bioenergy Research Center and the Wisconsin Energy Institute And the point person for education and outreach for both of these organizations is John Greenler The Bioenergy Research Center came first seeking to spread knowledge and research in this specific area of bioenergy And the Wisconsin Energy Institute was then created to support energy-related research by the faculty and scientists of the University of Wisconsin-Madison And there's a lot more to John Greenler than only his work with these two organizations Among other facets of his life work and passions, John is the co-owner of Zephyr Farm, a CSA or community-sponsored agriculture endeavor that allows John less heady and more hands-on experience with sustainability With a mind for the sciences, a heart for the earth, and a voice made to be heard, John Greenler joins us by Skype from Madison, Wisconsin John, I'm absolutely delighted to have you here today for Spirit in Action Mark, it's really a pleasure to be with you, thank you very much So I've known you for a few decades or something, I forget exactly how long it is It's been a good period of time, wonderfully so But I've been relatively little aware of your work with the Wisconsin Energy Institute and the Great Lakes Bioenergy Research Center GLBRC, I'm Bob Rook I'm trying to avoid that, GLBRC is good, so So I'm really looking forward to learning a lot more about that, of course I've been looking at the websites and so on to try and get an idea of what's going And I've listened to several of your interviews with Larry Mueller How long have you been in this work? I mean, it predates kind of 2008 when you got involved with GLBRC It does, my focus on energy actually really goes back to my undergraduate days Now I'll really kind of even mark my age by saying back in 1977 You know, I picked up a number of books which had a significant influence on me One of them was a book by Amory Lovins called Soft Energy Paths And he really kind of saw a lot of what we're dealing with now Coming quite a ways ago in terms of recognizing that a lot of our energy systems A lot of our energy use patterns were headed in a direction which really weren't As we would call it today, it's sustainable even though at that point in time that really wasn't the concept But recognizing that we were utilizing resources and having unintended consequences That we really just can continue on and that we really needed to rethink our relationship with energy And so, even though my PhD is in biology and I've spent a lot of time working in education I've had this very long-term interest in energy systems and how we as humans kind of power our lives, so to speak Well, let's talk a bit about the Great Lakes Bioenergy Research Center Which is where you started, so GLBRC, you started there in 2008 What's their purpose, what do they do? Yeah, so GLBRC really kind of arose out of what at this point in time was a very different era When we were looking at several different pressing issues nationally And this was recognized by the Department of Energy which funds GLBRC Several of them include national energy security concern at that point in time Fossil fuels were quite expensive thinking about oil, especially petroleum Coming largely or much more extensively from abroad They were more expensive, and so we were looking for economic alternatives Looking for alternatives that weren't as wed to the Middle East for example The other piece that was significant back then I think is now even more significant Is the recognition that we have a big problem in terms of climate change For which the release of CO2 from fossil fuel consumption is a big issue And when we look at the potential for advanced biofuels There's a lot of opportunity there to significantly reduce the amount of greenhouse gases that we would be emitting Especially relative to using petroleum products, gasoline, diesel But also things like jet fuel and bunker fuel for the shipping industry as well Okay, so that's the Great Lakes Bioenergy Research Center But there's also the Wisconsin Energy Institute which originated more recently What's the mission of that group? Yeah, the Wisconsin Energy Institute is a really interesting story Here at UW-Madison, we've been blessed for a long period of time With a great diversity of researchers studying different dimensions of energy And some of those are obvious, you know, we look to the College of Engineering We have faculty who are involved in mechanical engineering, internal combustion engines Or nuclear physics But we also have researchers who are in agronomy Looking at energy as it relates to farming or energy systems related to human health Or air pollution as well So really a broadly interdisciplinary group of researchers that, you know, until relatively recently Had few opportunities to really kind of connect the dots And so a lot of W.I. is focused on how to bring those researchers together To form larger collaborative interdisciplinary transdisciplinary projects To support them and then also to really kind of utilize that research base From an educational perspective as well, which is really my primary area of involvement with W.I. Yeah, and I did want to be clear, John, and again, folks, we're talking with John Greenler Wisconsin Energy Institute and the Great Lakes Bioenergy Research Center He's down in Madison, Wisconsin. I'm up in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, just three hours drive away By a fossil fuel using vehicle on bike it takes considerably longer But it's renewable or something, just have to eat some food along the way So your role is that of Director of Education Outreach What does that mean in terms of your scientific or research basis? Are you just dealing with other researchers, or do you get to actually do some research yourself? I do get to do a little bit of my own research, primarily kind of more looking at existing data And really trying to put it into a context which really allows for, you know, I would say a broader understanding Not just by, you know, our students in formal education environments, but the general public as well How do we understand where we are today, both, you know, locally, nationally and globally in terms of energy What are the implications of that are an area that I'm quite interested in? And in our education work is quite broad, you know, we do an extensive amount of work In what I would call formal education, so working in the development of materials for classroom use Professional development for educators, for teachers and similar We do have a number of undergraduate programs as well We also do a fair amount of informal education actually reaching out to the general public In a range of different capacities and different collaborative projects So that which we're doing right now is kind of education, so you're actually doing your job right at this moment And I am wonderfully so, it's really a pleasure and a privilege Well, let's talk about some of the research, because I don't know, some people might think this is ivory tower stuff Some people might see it as absolutely crucial central to where we need to be headed for the future What's the cutting edge of the research being done, some examples of it at the university right now? Really good question, and I really appreciate your framing on that question as well A lot of what we do is to focus in on basic research that has the potential for applied outcomes And that may seem kind of contradictory, but when we look at where we are today in terms of our energy use And our energy needs, especially looking towards the future It is possible to say that there are areas where we just don't have fundamental understandings And how can we do the research that will then allow us to essentially do development that will have very immediate outcomes And so in many ways we're a bit of an interface, we're kind of on a bit of an edge between what I would call kind of classic academia Where you just kind of launch into an area of study because it's interesting Okay, we've got a problem we need to solve in the next two to five years, and let's get that done now We kind of are trying in some ways to fill a whole, some of you've missedly called, kind of a bit of a valley of death To bring those two kind of domains together It's a really interesting niche to work in, and what I like about it is we get to, and I get to really interact with a lot of different domains And different types of people working in the energy sector And correspondingly our projects can be quite far ranging in that capacity as well Trying to, you know, there's times we might invest fair amount of effort in something which would be a long shot That, you know, for example, a corporate entity just may not be able to justify, you know But there's a potential for very significant rewards as well in those domains So it's really in some ways a privilege that we have that I think is really essential at this point in time to really kind of make a significant difference In terms of coming up with clean, renewable, sustainable energy systems We think about things like ecosystem services, what do we get out of our natural systems I think we tend to undervalue our personal and spiritual relationship with the environment And so that's definitely something that fits into the stories Well, I'd like some specific examples I mean, what research is happening that should be of interest to us Kind of the cutting edge, that's pointing new paths forward Well, let me tell a little bit of the story around some of our bioenergy research And more specifically kind of looking at liquid fuels, which we would call biofuels Clearly today, especially here in the United States You know, we do have a biofuels industry We all drive cars and the vast majority of those cars are powered by a gasoline blend And 10% of that blend for most of us is ethanol And that ethanol comes from a process of taking corn, grain, breaking it down into sugars And then fermenting those sugars into ethanol And that's really become a very significant industry for us In fact, most people aren't aware of the statistic that 40% of our corn, grain, harvest in this country You know, give or take, it varies from year to year, goes into making ethanol for transportation It's a big industry, and it's an industry which has a lot of environmental issues Growing corn for grain is very demanding Let me put it that way, on our land, on our agarecological systems A lot of energy actually goes in to things like fertilizer and tractors And the list goes on and on to actually produce that grain And there's a lot of soil health conditions associated with it There's a lot of nutrient runoff issues, biodiversity issues, the list goes on and on So there's a lot of good reasons why we actually really want to try and minimize the amount of corn, grain that we're producing So, you know, a key focus for us in the Great Lakes Primary Energy Research Center is saying Okay, we've got this opportunity in terms of being able to replace our petroleum consumption by developing biofuels But moving beyond corn, grain, to ethanol, you know, is a really good idea The other one that I just want to briefly mention that's significant is clearly Corn, grain, can be used as food And, you know, with our population continuing to grow and demand for me, et cetera You know, we really want to be very careful about how we use our food and feed products Taking it away from that stream and putting it in energy has a lot of significant social concerns So what we're looking at is saying, okay, well, how do we move beyond corn, grain, to ethanol in terms of biofuel? A big opportunity that's out there is utilizing what we call cellulosic biomass And more simply speaking, it's essentially all the fibrous plant material That in many cases is left over from agricultural or forestry practices So coming back to corn, you know, after that grain is harvested, corn's an annual crop we have A significant amount of fibrous biomass, the leaves, the stem, the cob, all of that material It actually has a lot of energy locked into it There are these polymers, one of the big one and primary one being cellulose It's a polymer of glucose of sugar molecules If we can figure out how to essentially release those sugars and then be able to turn them into ethanol Or other more advanced fuel forms, that's a significant opportunity The same is true for the forestry industry, for example, if we look at all of the mill tailings and sawdust And tree tops, which are left over after trees are harvested, for example That's all largely once again this fibrous or cellulosic plant biomass And being able to convert that into liquid fuels is a significant opportunity The other source that's out there, which is, I think, very, very important, is perennial dedicated crops Many folks have heard about switchgrass, for example, which can be grown on what we would call marginal lands These are acres where you don't want to be growing something like corn or soybeans More intensive crops, but still are very prominent on our agricultural landscape It may be a very hilly area or more of a wetland area And annual crops really don't do as well And in fact, when you try and grow them on these marginal lands, they can actually have a very negative A very detrimental environmental impacts But perennial crops, such as switchgrass, or even a more biodiverse planting That would really be, for example, in this area, a native prairie mix We actually build environmental benefits, but also provide us with biomass This fibrous biomass, once again, that we could then convert into fuels And so the challenge is, you know, thinking about how do we produce this type of biomass on our agroecological landscape But then also how do we take this biomass and unlock that energy And sustainably convert it into fuels that can be utilized In a best case scenario in our current infrastructure, with our current vehicles But then also thinking about the future, what will our future infrastructure look like? What kind of vehicles, what kind of transportation systems do we want for the future? And how do we develop biofuels that would work in that kind of future scenario? Wow, that's a lot of information There's a couple things I want to revisit along that path One of which is, first of all, this corn into ethanol I don't know that it necessarily was going exactly into ethanol But is this just really modern day moonshine still? Isn't that what they were doing with moonshine still? Just converting, I don't know if it was corn all the time, but they were making it into alcohol, right? Definitely, yeah, really when you boil it down, so to speak When you distill it down, it's essentially very much the same process Now, to the credit of the industry, energy efficiency has really become a strong element of more applied research And it is impressive how much more efficient they've gotten at actually being able to convert that corn grain into ethanol To be honest with you, if we were having this conversation 20 years ago I would be citing research which basically showed that you were putting more energy into making that ethanol Than you were actually getting out, so you were actually using more fossil fuels to make that ethanol Than you were actually getting out as an end product, so it really was a shell game essentially Functionally speaking, we were converting petroleum into biofuels and ethanol And in some cases, it wasn't even neutral, it was a losing proposition It's still not a big game changer, we still have to put a lot of fossil fuels into making that corn grain ethanol biofuel But it is now, has tipped the scale where we are actually getting more energy out than we were getting in But it's maybe 1.5 times as much, for example What we're looking at is the opportunity of having a 10-fold increase essentially in energy Where we're a tenth of the energy we're represented in that biofuel would actually be coming from fossil fuels So that really does kind of change the game so to speak quite significantly And there's a strong correlation there with the emission of greenhouse gases as well So if we can be cutting our greenhouse gas emissions 10-fold, that's paramount We really need to be working in that direction So I want to make sure I got this straight, because I was aware of what you said The net loss that happened with biofuels maybe 20 years ago with the technology and methods we were using at that time So are you saying that currently, if we were energizing the cycle, using the fuel that we were producing We net maybe one-third of the production that we're getting now Is that makes sense? I was using the 1.5, so if you're producing 150% of the fuels, the fossil fuels that you're putting into it Well if that was just recycling stuff, you'd take 100% and there's still 50% left So one-third of it would be the net production compared to what we do now Does that make sense? Yeah, ballparkish, I mean it's still the thing that's interesting And this is becoming more and more common in our energy systems There's just a huge amount of variation in terms of where this production is taking place What the demand is, etc. The more locally you can be using these kinds of fuels or energy sources The more economical they are Different types of biofuel crops provide really different numbers of economy And then just to make matters even more complicated There are different ways of actually converting that cellulosic or fibrous biomass into liquid fuels And you can have a lot of variation in terms of kind of various pluses and minuses In those, some are more expensive than others, some are more energy efficient And so there's lots of different things which need to get balanced And the other thing is this is still all very much nascent technology We do have about 10 commercial scale plants that are up and running nationally now That are converting this fibrous biomass into liquid fuels So we're just at the point of being able to get some actual real-time data But once again, they're diverse in terms of where they are Ranging from Iowa to the southeast of the United States And some of them largely use what I would call catalytic processes for the conversion And some use a more traditional type of fermentation type of a process To actually make the final product So there's a lot of variation out there And correspondingly energy efficiency numbers, cost numbers, environmental impact numbers Are going to vary quite a bit Yes, and there's a lot, and so the research is really being valuable in terms of discerning possible paths forward Now again, the holy grail at the end of this might be a 10 to 1 type production We might get this 10 times as much bioenergy out as whatever energy input we put into it Right, and increasingly important is looking at those kind of emissions numbers as well And again, I'll come back to CO2 just because the climate change concern is so present today And it's an interesting story coming back to switchgrass One of the things that is not obvious with switchgrass, but as a perennial grass In addition to growing above-ground biomass each year, which we can harvest to make fuels Most of that switchgrass plant is actually out of sight for us, it's actually below ground So for every, for example, meter of grass growing up There's actually a meter of roots going down, and those roots continue to grow and develop And as they're doing that, through photosynthesis, they're actually taking carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere And essentially sequestering it into the ground as carbon, soil, carbon So when we begin to look at these perennial crops, there's the opportunity to actually have a carbon neutral fuel Because we're mitigating what CO2 might be emitted through the combustion of that Through photosynthesis and taking that CO2 out of the atmosphere and essentially through the magic of photosynthesis And biology actually putting it underground Really, in some ways, it's a process of kind of using these biological systems to achieve these very critical goals That we have today in terms of addressing global warming and climate change Thank you so much for that information, John. Again, folks, we're speaking with John Greenler He is the education outreach director of the Great Lakes Bioenergy Research Center And he also works with the Wisconsin Energy Institute We've got links for both of those on our website, energy.wisc.edu Is one of those two links, energy.wisc.edu They're down in Madison, Wisconsin, but I imagine the research is happening all over the place You are listening to spirit and action This is a Northern spirit radio production We're on the web at northernspiritradio.org That's ORG like in organic, which is all about sustainability And we're here talking to John Greenler today On our site, you can find links to the organizations he's part of You can also find a place to post comments And we really love two-way communications So post your comments, give us your ideas, and we'll respond to them as best we can Wonderful. I did just want to briefly comment on I appreciate your mentioning those web links Because we really work quite hard with our communications team To provide a lot of useful information for the general public So hopefully people get a chance to look at those websites And definitely be in touch if you have questions Also on our website, there's a place where you can make donations That is how this work is funded It's full-time work for more than one of us Show your donations make a big difference But even more important than that Just as education is so important with the work that John Greenler is doing Education outreach, dissemination of information is so crucial Which is why, before you even support Northern Spirit Radio Remember to support your local community radio station W-R-T down in Madison is one of them W-O-J-B is just north of us There are radio stations that provide you a slice of news And of music that you get nowhere else And they're so important in terms of dissemination of information Start by supporting them Again, John Greenler's here with us And you were just talking, John, about the whole corn or switch glass Or whatever into ethanol And you alluded to one thing already And I just want to check and see how important this is You mentioned how about corn can be used as food or fuel And so if you're taking 40% of it, as you mentioned And converting it into fuel That's a pretty significant dent in the food That maintains the price of producers of corn But it also means that maybe there's shortages of food that happen And when I was thinking, you know, you said you can take sawdust And you can perhaps, if we learn to deal with cellulose issue And make it effective enough of a process, convert that in liquid fuels That's going to impact me because I have wood pellet stove here at my house And so my fuel will become more expensive probably because of that Or there will be less availability Could you talk about those kind of environmental trade-offs? So it's not only environmental, but it's about what portion of our society do we feed, so to speak? Definitely, yeah, and this whole analysis of the consequences of changes In either our agricultural or forestry industries is very, very complex And trying to know what the boundaries are in terms of impacts Is very, very difficult at some point you need to say Boy, we're only going to look at this so far, but the repercussions and the ripples, so to speak Are very dynamic and very changing, and actually we're really fortunate to have some faculty here at the university for whom This is their full-time research, is really trying to understand these kinds of interactions I'll just briefly tell an interesting story along those lines You know, and we look at, for example, using corn grain to produce ethanol, you're exactly right You know, that does drive up the price of that grain And one of the consequences of that is that farmers will say, "But boy, why should I be growing something other than corn When I can be making all this money growing corn?" So, you know, one thing that's happened is that farmers will reduce, for example, the amount of soybeans that they would be growing On their farm, these are global commodities, corn and soybeans And so, when there's less beans growing in the United States, the price of beans actually does go up globally Farmers in Brazil take a look at that and say, "Wow, you know, this is interesting, I should be growing more beans They'll actually start growing more soybeans, and they might actually be, and this isn't actually really just hypothetical They'll actually take what was formerly pasture and plow that up and plant soybeans The grazers in Brazil then, of course, finally have a shortage of land for their cattle And actually, Brazil is a major producer of beef on the global market They then go looking for more acreage, and one of the potential outcomes there is the chopping down of tropical rainforest to plant more pasture So, almost, you know, impossible to quantify fully and even predict in terms of, you know, how these things might work through the system But, you know, are using more corn grain ethanol and the United States can actually lead to deforestation In a whole different continent, in a tropical climate in Brazil, this is what's known as indirect land use change Because of the fact that we are so globalized, it can be very, very hard to know what will be happening When we do one thing here in the United States, you know, we just have such a large, consumptive impact That, you know, we can have a huge effect in a very distant land, which is completely out of our site to kind of off our radar screen, so to speak Well, that takes me into another area that I had a number of questions about, and I assume that the Wisconsin Energy Institute is looking at How are we doing compared to other countries? Like, what I've seen in Europe, I've traveled in Europe a number of times And they tend to be much more energy efficient, they look at alternative ways of doing energy because they have a much more limited supply This nation, the United States has had a lot of resources that other countries centuries ago used up or largely used up So, how do we compare to places like Europe in terms of implementation or doing this kind of research that the institute is doing? Or Africa, where you and I have both visited separately, but we both have some experience What about the implementation and research? Is it happening differently in Europe, Africa, compared to the US? There's a lot of parallels, and in the bigger picture, a lot of similarities, but it's fascinating when you look at the details We can see a lot of diversity as well, and so, you know, I think on the balance, Europe is definitely further along than we are But at the same time, you know, they're dealing with some very significant challenges, and in some cases, actually some very negative unintended consequences And, you know, just once again, kind of coming back to the bioenergy and biofuels area, I think there's some really important lessons to be learned So, for example, on that area of indirect change, so to speak, Europe, very early on said, "Boy, we need to get out of the use of petroleum "We really need to look at biofuels, these liquid fuels from biological materials" And they really put a very strong emphasis on that and developed some very aggressive policies, which initially looked like they would really have some very healthy, positive outcomes But it didn't actually turn out that way, at least initially So, for example, in Europe, they're much more reliant on diesel than we are for transportation, especially for, you know, their cars The majority of cars in Europe are diesel as compared to gas here in the United States And they really didn't have the capacity in-house, so to speak, to produce the biomass to be able to make diesel So they said, "Well, let's look at the global market, where can we get oil, plant-based oils to make diesel?" And, you know, very quickly, they discovered that they could buy very inexpensively palm oil from Southeast Asia, from Malaysia and Indonesia And then be able to easily convert that into diesel Boy, it looked like a great opportunity, it got, you know, problem solved But what happened was the palm oil industry in Southeast Asia just boomed And they were looking for more and more acreage to plant these palm trees to make the oil And what they ended up doing was chopping down, once again, a huge amount of tropical forest And when you look at that deforestation, the release of CO2 in the atmosphere is just tremendous And so the payback period, in some cases, for actually taking down the rainforest and planting these palm oil plantations Literally, in some cases, was as much as three or even 400 years before you'd actually see a payback So, at least in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, which has a big concern for a lot of European countries They were actually doing so much more harm than good You know, to their credit, I think, once they saw what was going on, they really tried to change course But, you know, these are kind of slow turning systems, so to speak So it really, you know, did have a major negative impact in terms of using this palm oil There are a lot of policies in Europe actually using woody biomass to combust to make electrical power For heating and for power, kind of like your wood pellets And initially, that seemed like a great thing as well, they were able to get away from using coal And instead, we were able to use biomass This one, actually, it's an interesting story in that it really, at least in part, came back to affect us here in the United States It ends up that a lot of the woody biomass that's used, especially in Britain, actually comes from the United States It comes from the southeast states here in the US You know, initially, some of that was just kind of residue material But there was an increasing concern that, you know, we're seeing primary harvesting of woody species in the southeast To then just basically ship, which isn't energy, you know, it's a big energy impact Ship, actually, all the way to Europe to burn for their electrical and heat generation And so, these global markets can initially be pretty opaque in terms of, you know, what the environmental impact is When it's, you know, on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, for example So, you know, we're all kind of desperate to do the right thing And we're moving fast and we're acting quite quickly, you know, at very large scales And it becomes, you know, we can have a very big impact on very short order and not really realize what's going on Until we've really, you know, have done a lot of damage in some cases And I think it's so important that we remember that we need a big picture We need to be able to see where the dominoes are going to fall And whether they're going to knock down or what effectively will accomplish by our work And this seems very important in terms of the kind of research you're doing Now, if you were in a single industry doing the research, let's say you were something related to forestry and woods And, you know, not thinking about food issues or climate change issues Your research would have a limited number of inputs that would be important to you Right So, the research that you're doing is essentially all public funded That's correct It's all done at the University where you're connected with that And you're analyzing and trying to coordinate and put together this information so that people can use it effectively in the world Could the research that you're doing at the University just be done by private companies effectively? I'm kind of doubting that Well, I think it's an issue really in some cases of how that is done So we actually do have an increasing number of corporate sponsors and corporate partners And I think one of the things that we can bring to that is this kind of larger kind of web of knowledge, so to speak And this is where I like to differentiate I think this is more than just semantics, the difference between being interdisciplinary and being transdisciplinary You know, the traditional model would be, well, we would have one researcher over in one lab Or, you know, in one study area, you know, and they might work for some years and then come back and report And somebody from a different discipline would come, you know, after some years to report And it would all get stitched together for kind of an annual summary or a summary at the end of a grant period or something like that And we've really tried to, I think, go a significant step further into what I would call a transdisciplinary domain Or we actually have projects which get funding And those projects actually have a collection of researchers that are from different disciplines And these researchers are actually interacting together on a, you know, maybe not a daily But at least on a weekly type of basis where you might have an economist and a mechanical engineer and a microbiologist They're all working on one project in real time And I think with this kind of collaborative approach, we have the opportunity to not get kind of down a pike so to speak And go really far before realizing that, you know, this isn't looking so good from dimension Y, even though it may look great from dimension X You know, I think this is an area where it's kind of a higher level kind of pioneering, I think, that we're doing of really trying to cross What, in some cases, can be some pretty well entrenched boundaries in academia and research in general And really try and be in this much more live and dynamic interplay And we've even tried to quantify this, for example, we look at all of our academic publications And we ask the question, how many different research teams, how many different disciplines are represented in this piece of published work And really look at what our trends are, you know, and I'm really pleased to say that, yeah, when we started out back in 2008 We were pretty siloed, a lot of our research was being done in individual disciplines And now we're to the point where, you know, something like 60% of our published work actually represents effort being done By one or more distinguishable, different research teams And we really consider that to be a sign of our success in terms of really kind of trying to come up with, you know, what I would term sustainable outcomes Where we are looking at kind of in broad strokes, the integration of economic concerns, of environmental concerns, and social concerns All kind of wedded together You know, it's so easy to get excited, from my point of view at least, John About these innovations in alternative energies, whether it's solar or wind or biofuels Wow, we could do it that way, and oh, but I sometimes feel like I have to bring myself up short and say, wait a minute The order is reduce, reuse, recycle, and so conservation, which Europe has done much better than we have Size of cars in the way that they don't leave lights on gratuitously, or they do that switch over Where's the rub between conservation and innovation of energy? Because I think our country tends to, I think we tend to worship technology We tend to think that our salvation will come from some new innovation technology Right, and this is a really key point that you brought up here And I think everyone in the energy industry at this point in time recognizes that innovation and new technologies In terms of new energy sources, etc Is never going to be able to catch up if we don't accelerate our efficiencies And, you know, our ability to conserve the precious energy resources that we have today So, you know, I really like to think about that as kind of being baseline in terms of the work that we need to do You know, the good news in that is that when we look, and you've already kind of raised this up in part When we look around globally, when we look internationally, we can see that, you know, a wide range of variation in terms of energy use per person Relative to things like the Human Development Index, for example, which takes into account income and education and health You know, we see an almost linear, you know, just straight up that range of countries in terms of being able to be very developed Have a very high human development or HDI index score with actually using very little energy per person You know, when we look at some countries in Europe or even, you know, Hong Kong, for example, as a stellar example of a country Which essentially has the same HDI that we do here in the United States But they use probably a third the energy that we do per person And so the technology is there, the systems are there to allow us to greatly improve our energy and efficiency to be able to conserve more energy And therefore really position ourselves, I think, to be able to really make use of the clean energy technologies that are coming down the pike that we know are being developed that will be available Is there any danger of Easter Island type scenario? And what I've read about Easter Island is that they took boats arriving there For boats that are made out of major sized trees, lumber, and they got to the island which had trees and all that And as part of their living on the island, the people destroyed the trees, they cut them down Till eventually they had no trees, so they could no longer produce the boats that they needed to leave Easter Island They got trapped there, and I wonder if we have a parallel situation perhaps ahead of us with post-peak oil How badly do we need to use the petroleum-based energy that we have now in order to prepare ourselves for the alternative energy scenarios? Yeah, in some ways, one of the challenges is things have gotten more complicated Really, in many ways, a lot more complicated since the era of Easter Island and similar So, for example, the whole concept of peak oil is valuable But I think it is, to some extent, kind of flawed because it's become clear and we're really living this right now That there's a lot of momentum, there's a lot of capacity to develop to That can be developed to continue to tap into reserves that we may not today have access to it So even if we look back 10 years ago, for example, the types of technologies we have to be able to gain access to oil and natural gas Petroleum and natural gas, such as horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracking, such as shale oil Have really allowed us to, at least for an interim period of time, to be able to kind of skip over peak oil, so to speak At the same time, there are other complications which are becoming increasingly worse And clearly, the emission of CO2 and greenhouse gases in general is getting far worse The price of oil is dropping as the system currently stands The economic incentives for us to look at the alternative clean energy technologies is actually dropping But I think we're also recognizing that there are these pressing, very, very pressing reasons, such as climate change That we really need to, if anything, we need to create our own peak oil scenario, so to speak, and say that we really are Even if it's not an economic incentive, we really are going to turn the corner in terms of how much time we consume So we really need to do that promptly for a diversity of reasons Another topic area that I'd like to discuss with you And I think it's probably something you don't get to talk too much about at work Is maybe the conflict and the synthesis that can happen between science and spirituality As I conceive of it, spirituality talks about meaning in the world and values And science is excellent at looking at numbers and making predictions And with those things in mind, some people have seen science and spirituality as enemies And other people see them as allies, what's your perspective? I think at the end of the day, we need to be allies I think we are, in history, I think it's proved this over and over We are spiritual beings in any of a wide number of different ways and paths As a species, we have sought out our spiritual selves And I think we'll continue to do so indefinitely I think it's in our bones and our genes, so to speak At the same time, we are users of tools And I think science is one of those ultimate tools, the ability to understand, to see that larger world And I really think we're only going to be able to move forward as a species As a caring member of this planet, when we find a way to move forward together In those different dimensions of who we are as a species, I think it's essential And I think that there have at times been conflict But I think we've really been building that somewhat organically And I think ever since we've really developed the ability to think logically To use tools, to advance technology But it is more pressing than ever because of the fact that our technological advances Do allow us to move forward in an ever increasing exponential fashion And so how do we develop a culture of spirit that allows us to bring balance In terms of the use of science and technology And I'm interested also, John, in your particular perspective on spirituality and science I'm not sure how you started off education wise and growing up Was your family already environmentally tuned, outdoors, connection, indoors, technology? How that came through in your family, maybe religiously, spiritually I know that at one point in your life, any case, you and your family Spent sojourn in maybe once, twice two occasions, I think, in Africa Which, of course, changes one whole viewpoint on the world to spend time there So how has that worked for you in terms of science and spirit integrated in your person and in your work? Yeah, that's a really good question. I appreciate that. I'm just going to work on that one on the fly Because I've really never thought about that, but it is interesting to note that I grew up in a family where I had a father who was a mechanical engineer A mother who was a chemist, so that part of my life was very present from Gecko But at the same time, my father was raised a Quaker, my mother was very active In the local Episcopal Church, congregation, and I was as well kind of connected with both of those worlds And so I think I really have carried those dimensions forward And personally, and professionally as well Yeah, and then as you mentioned, my family, twice, we've lived in East Africa, in Tanzania For an extended period of time, while my wife and I were directing a study, a broad program for undergraduates And we were very much experiencing and appreciating both the cultural, spiritual aspects of that world But also the natural history and the public health domains as well So I think we were really aware of a very different place for very different people How those worlds intertwine I think fundamentally, very much, very similar to what we experienced here in the United States And if you look toward the future, I guess maybe I'd say a bright and shining future for the US How do you see things rolling out over the next 5, 10, 15 years? Because there's issues like perhaps energy shortages There are issues of pollution, there are a whole lot of technologies possibly coming online And there's things like global climate change, which are looming out there So what is your vision of the best way forward to deal with all of those issues and possibilities? Some of them are extremely positive So I don't want to be panacea, I think we are going to face some significant challenges And there will be some hardships And some of that will be for us here in the United States But I think we are living in a very interconnected world And that is increasingly the case, I think we're going to be more and more aware of what's going on around us And really the challenges that are being faced today are more in the front and developing countries And they are here in the United States But we will also continue to recognize increasingly so that we are one on this planet And those that suffer further away from us will be a part of that and will experience that But you know, I do really am at the end of the day an optimist I think are recognizing new paths forward in terms of technology And technology in terms of how to come together in community I think will bring us a lot of high value secondary benefits A really interesting recognition in this is the domain of livable cities for example That we can tend to see the manifestation of more pollution in more densely populated areas and more urban areas They also provide us with the opportunity to be much more efficient per person per capita And also provide us with the opportunity to be much more connected with our neighbors To have much more dynamic, interactive and vibrant relationships with each other More sharing, more collective effort, more compassion I think is definitely on our horizon as well as more technology to allow us to live comfortably To live with what we need and what provides us with fundamental satisfaction and pleasure in our lives And I also want to get very particular in the way that I think you're living out your values Of course, you know, you go to work and you're at the Great Lakes Bioenergy Research Center And Wisconsin Energy Institute and doing both outreach and education there You're moving the world forward in a very positive direction by that work I also understand that you've got your own farm there, a CSA And so very much on the ground you are practicing alternative vision You can't have a comment on any of the aspects of that? Yeah, for me it's a bit of a yin yang type of opportunity So I live on and own a farm with two other individuals that is a community support agriculture enterprise More of a cooperative structure we really share the labor and we also share all, you know, reap all the benefits of the harvest And we're very close to Madison, Wisconsin here so we can really kind of bring that food to the communities, to the city as well For me, it provides me with that connection with place, with the land that I care so much about It really kind of recharges the kinesthetic part of my life I think a really fundamental, deeply spiritual component of really being present with place That kind of allows me to bring energy to some of these more abstract, kind of more global system type concerns It makes me know that, yeah, that the spirit is there, that the people are there, that the places that are beautiful in our life Are thriving and can be healthy and that we can make a difference both for ourselves in those relationships As very personal relationships, but also in the context of doing the right thing in terms of larger global systems You're sure doing it, John, I really appreciate the work that you're doing Again, we've been speaking with John Greenler, he is Outreach and Education Director of the Great Lakes Bioenergy Resource Center That's GLBRC and the Wisconsin Energy Institute You'll find the links on nerdinspiritradio.org You've been doing all of that work, you do it in your personal life, I happen to know your kids, I happen to know your spouse I happen to know your farm, all of these things which are inspirations for the world, but on the local level and the meta level So I really appreciate you doing all of that work and bringing it here today to share with our guests for spirit in action Glad to be with you and glad to be a part of spirit in action Mark, thanks very much for the opportunity Those links that I mentioned which are on nerdinspiritradio.org GLBRC.org is one of them and the other is for the Wisconsin Energy Institute energy.wisc.edu Great thanks to Andrew Janssen for production help for this show And we'll see you all next week for spirit in action The theme music for this program is Turning of the World performed by Sarah Thompson This spirit in action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website northernspiritradio.org Thank you for listening, I am your host Mark Helpsmeet and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light This is spirit in action With every voice, with every song We will move this world along With every voice, with every song We will move this world along And our lives will feel the echo of our healing (upbeat music)