Spirit in Action

Nicaragua Inter-oceanic Canal - NO!

Don't know about the planned (and underway) Nicaragua Inter-oceanic Canal? Tere Campos, Nicaraguan native, and her husband, Brad Stocker, are working to put out the word about this potentially disastrous plan which would put at risk the 9th largest lake of the Americas, and much more.

Duration:: 55m
Broadcast on:: 02 Aug 2015
Audio Format:: other

[music] ♪ Let us sing this song for the healing of the world ♪ ♪ That we may hear as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world home ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpsmeat. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred food in your own life. ♪ Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world ♪ ♪ That we may dream as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world home ♪ Every summer, right around the 4th of July, I go to a nationwide gathering of more than 1,000 Quakers, which means I can count on being there with a rich assortment of folks, drawing on spiritual roots to do good work for the world. This year, I found out that there were to be a couple of folks there associated with Quaker Earthcare Witness and deeply concerned about what is called the Nicaragua Interoceanic Canal, a project to create a second canal like that through Panama, but crossing Nicaragua and traveling through Lake Nicaragua, the 19th largest lake in the world. In this day and age, most countries would take a long, thoughtful look at the potential harm that could come from such a project. But with corruption in their rife and with a level of poverty in America's second only to Haiti, there was little will to question the plan. Terry Campos, native to Nicaragua, is with us here today for Spirit and Action, as is her husband, Brad Stalker. And they are both active in the effort to stop the Nicaragua Interoceanic Canal, climate change, and they are involved in other environmental work as well. They are joining me today before a live audience here at the Friends General Conference Gathering in Western Carolina University. Brad and Terry, it's wonderful to have you here today for Spirit in Action. Hi, Mark. Nice to meet you. Thank you for having us, Mark. A lot of times in the United States, we get rather insular. We know how things look from the point of view of us in the United States, but the fact that you, Terry, are from Nicaragua, where this canal is proposed, and I think actually kind of underway, is going to be such a helpful perspective to see it from the inside. Both of you are very concerned about Earth care. How does that come about, and where has your interest taken you? Well, in terms of Earth care, we've been trying to get people to know that the canal is happening. There's been a lack of information. We've been surprised when we did our presentation at S-E-Y-M, Southeastern Yearly Meeting. There were probably half the groups that hadn't even heard of the canal. And so it's very difficult for people to respond to something if they don't know. And it's been important for us to know the impact of the canal, not only on Nicaragua and the poor people and the indigenous people there, but to understand that it's one planet. And so when it goes through like Nicaragua, it's going through a body of water that is everybody's. It doesn't belong to anybody. Terry sees it in a very, very deep, personal way. Yeah, what is your perspective, Terry? Well, it happens that I am Nicaragua, but really this is a planet concern. This is a problem that concerns everybody on Earth, because this is a huge engineering project that is going to destroy one of the biggest water reservoirs in Central America. And like Brad said, we have just one planet, and this is everybody's problem. Were you both concerned about environmental issues before this particular canal was proposed going forward? Where does your interest date from? Oh, yeah. I started at Miami-Dade College. I was involved with the Earth Ethics Institute there. And we were also connected with Genesis Farm in New Jersey. I don't know if you've heard of them. Sister Miriam started. It's an Earth Literacy Center. And one in Tennessee where we're going is Narrow Ridge Earth Literacy Center also in Washburn, Tennessee. It's Eastern Tennessee. And it's a land conservancy. We're part of the land conservancy. And so at the college, those two New Jersey and Tennessee people were the heads of those centers. Were a part of the board, the original board for the Earth Ethics Institute. The intention and mission of that was to bring the new universe story. You've heard of that. Okay. It's basically the... You know I've heard of it, Brad, because you listened to the interview I did with some folks about that. That's true. Caught. Hands up. That's true. And yes, Mary Jo Klingel and the others. And it was the mission of the Institute, the primary mission of the Institute, was to bring this story to every student. Nobody left the college. In other words, the idea was that no student would graduate without having heard the new story and its implications. And so we were teaching teachers how to integrate that. So I started with that in 1990 when we got back from Nicaragua for the Fulbright in 1992. And so where does your environmental interests stem from Terry? Well, when you put it in that way, it is through the Institute that Brad was talking about. But really on my life, I have felt very close to Earth, to the water and the mountains and the volcanoes. Because in Nicaragua, we have in Manawa where I grew up. We have a lake and we have a volcano in Montombo that I am in love with. I grew up watching the volcano because in Manawa, you can see the volcano wherever you go. And the volcano can teach you a lot of good things. And the volcano had taught me good stuff. I would think that a volcano, given the fact that I've never been around volcanoes, that I would see a volcano as a threat, it may blow up, it might hurt me. So it might make me feel afraid of the Earth instead of supportive of it. Is that not your feeling? No, not at all, on the country. Actually, volcanoes are awesome. They are fun to watch them every day because they have a microclimate at the top. And sometimes the clouds are this way, like long clouds. Sometimes the clouds are more vertical. They have different hats every day, depending on the factors, you know, where the factors are like humidity and things like that. The thing is that when you have a neighborhood with a volcano, a powerful volcano like Momo Dumbo, you have to be humble to be able to see a volcano. But at the same time, because it is your neighbor, you have to be able to look at him without fear. So in order to do that, you have to go up a volcano inside of you, a strength. And to be able to look at him with humility, but strength at the same time. And then you don't be afraid of a volcano. That is your neighborhood, and in your neighborhood. Recently, I went to Mexico and I saw the Popokate Pechel, the big volcano that has 5,000 meters. And it is huge and beautiful. And the people there call him Dongoyo in a familiar way. When there is a tremor or the volcano, because they make sounds also, they go on and give them flowers, put flowers or food on the skirt of the volcano to tell them to come down. You know, it's okay. So it's a nice thing. It's a fun way to live with a powerful neighbor like a volcano. So that's part of your connection to the Earth. Yeah. You know, I just wonder, in this day and age, with climate changing, does that mean that the microclimates up on the top of the volcano? Can you see a change in those also because of climate change? Yeah. We're starting to see those changes, yes. I mean, I heard that Mount Kilimanjaro, that the ice at the top, which has never melted before, is now melting. I'm not assuming Momotumbo is the same altitude, but I was just thinking, gee, we sometimes see the canary in the mine just at the top of whatever volcano or mountain is near us. You see it in Nicaragua, mostly in the changes in water, in rainfall, because in Nicaragua, in an area where there's a lot of rainfall and they've been having a drought. So climate change has affected their rain, that affects them what grows on Momotumbo. How long has the drought been going in Nicaragua? This one's almost four years. Several years, yeah. And it has hit a corridor in the country that it has been suffering from the drought. The Momotumbo doesn't have a snow. Right. I wasn't thinking it was that tall. Yeah. No. I thought actually probably you could see vegetation change at the top because of climate change. I thought that might happen. I think sometimes the tree line will move on mountains because of climate change. I don't know what trees, plants, bushes happen, but I thought they might be visible. The changes. Momotumbo is pretty bare. Yeah, it's pretty bare to begin with. Yeah, because it's sandy. And there's far less research going on in Nicaragua because of the poverty of Nicaragua. It's the second poorest country in the hemisphere after Haiti. And so there's just not the same level of research, but where they have done research like in Costa Rica, they've seen changes. I think I need to be updated a little bit about the government of Nicaragua. Of course, I know about the middle of the Daniel Ortega and 1980s and changes that went on at that time. I think that maybe Nicaragua has stepped back from many of the progressive programs of that day. What's Nicaragua like since you were there, Terry? I mean, growing up, what have you seen, and part of what I'm getting to, is what is their attitude about the environment and a governmental level? But first, what have you seen as the government connection with the people since it's the second poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere? Well, we had a revolution, the Sandinista revolution, which I loved, and I was very happy with the revolution when that happened. There was a lot of hope, a lot of solidarity from everybody from all over the world that made us feel loved and loving. It was like opening your heart to the world, but then I don't know what is like power always corrupts. And all these people who participated in the revolution then became corrupted. And now it's just horrible. There is no transparency, and we suffer from the same thing that everybody is suffering today, which is greedy, and that affects everybody. So the corruption in Nicaragua is horrible, and we have a president, all the commandantists are millionaires now, and they didn't have anything when they started the revolution. So it's just disgusting. It is a cry for a new paradigm. All of that is obsolete. All of those moments that in those days looked so beautiful, it didn't work. They didn't work. The revolution didn't work. I think I could probably spend a very full hour talking with you about what went wrong in that case. I think it's a good analysis of the human condition to know what makes a revolution work or not work. But I do want to focus in on particular environmental issues. So is it safe to say that with a level of corruption in Nicaragua, that environmental protection is not a high priority? That's pretty safe. Yeah, you can't go wrong with saying that. Yeah. From our perspective, and from speaking to various people, there are people who are in favor of the canal, but they're speaking also to people who are not in favor of the canal. What we're finding is that getting information about the canal out from Nicaragua has been difficult. More in the last few months, actually, since we really talked, actually, there's been more in El Pais, which is a Spanish newspaper, more online, more links, more videos are getting out. Al Jazeera has been a good source of information. They've gone out and interviewed the Indians, the indigenous people, and the Atlantic coast, which is very different than the rest of Nicaragua. I don't know if you know about that history, but the colonization, the European colonization on Eastern part of Nicaragua was English-speaking. The colonization on the center and the Western part was Spanish-speaking, so there was this disconnect for a long time. It still is. But the indigenous people there speak their indigenous languages and English next before they learn any Spanish. Those people are almost totally opposed to the canal. They will be the people who are most displaced, most directly affected because they live directly off the land for the fishermen, farmers right next to it. What we can see is that the people that the government has hired to do environmental studies have been people that they've paid to come out with studies that say, "Oh, nothing bad's going to happen." But when you look at even what they are putting out, there's a diagram of the impact of the canal is a 20-kilometer swath, 10 kilometers on each side of the canal that will go through from the east coast, 170 kilometers to the west coast. They're going to tread 90 feet down. This is huge. It's much bigger than the Panama Canal. So when people are making comparisons and saying, "Well, the Panama Canal didn't do that, this kind of damage, it was in a different situation, different context," and it also didn't go right through the middle of this lake, which is the fresh water for a lot of people, drinking water. That's called Lake Nicaragua, right? Correct. And Lake Nicaragua is a very sizable lake. We're not talking something tiny. What are they going to do, drain it? What are the plans? I'm not going to drain it. They're going to dredge through it. The idea is to make the canal go deep in it and then to maintain it deep, and so they'll have to have continuous pumping through it. There are some places where they'll have some locks, but they'll have fewer locks. Then the engineering of this will be a continuous process when they have to keep it clean and clear for the traffic to go through. So then some of it's going through land and they'll make it traditional kind of cut. Some are going through wetlands, preserves that were recognized internationally as preserves, and reserves, and that hair split I won't do because I don't have too many hairs to split. And then out to the other side, and this will all be controlled by this Chinese company. It will not be owned by Nicaragua for over 100 years. So is this similar to what the US did with Panama where we had the rights for, I don't know, century or whatever? Correct. So this Chinese company is going to do to Nicaragua what the US did to Panama. What stage is this proposal or this program at this point? Okay, that's an interesting question. It's a part of the problem of trying to find out exactly have they actually broke ground. We know that they've done surveying as we have evidence that they put some survey pins in the ground. We know the contract was signed. We know they had a ribbon cutting ceremony. We don't know if they brought in heavy equipment and started the digging or not. And we are working to try to get this out. It was asked in our workshop that we did yesterday here at the FGC. Why did they start on the East Coast where it's less populated than the indigenous people are? Is it because they think that people won't know? And we can't answer that. But many of the indigenous say we're going to resist. Resistance is, I don't know how well they can do that, but they've already been having physical conflict. And in the videos that we've been able to, because that's a good, the internet is probably the best source of where we've been getting information. So, Al Jazeera, for example, will post. When we looked at the video, the interviews and so forth, that's where we're getting information. There's no press releases coming out. Other than the state control plans. I know this lake, I have known this lake all my life. This lake, I mean, water is a magic element and the lake is so beautiful. Just like two weeks ago, we saw this book in Barcelona that had pictures of life magazine and with their 100, 100 places, more beautiful places in the world. And one of the places is this lake. And this is just beautiful. And this is water that is drinkable. It's clean and a government who want to destroy all of this beauty and all of this nature that is sacred the way it is for the intention of this investor group to have this canal. So we can have huge ships to go through with, I don't know what, more stuff to consume or oil tankers or, I mean, it's just a government who gave this group 50 years of rights to do whatever in this piece of land that belongs to earth. Where there is a lake that has the right to exist the way it is with a group of, you know, with a lot of beautiful communities, birds, fish, all kinds of animals and human beings over there. And a lot of these areas are going to be underwater because they have to create two lakes to be able to use it for the loves. So it's just a terrible thing. Who wants to do that? What government wants to do that? And not ask the people, do you want this or not? Not even that. I assume that question has never been put to people in Nicaragua. Do you want this? Well, well, there was a survey made. And the survey has mixed results. I've done some research in my educational life. And so when people were telling, oh, well, the survey said, let me see the data of who did they ask and where it goes. I mean, what's coming out has been so controlled. We also are affiliated with a group called ProNica through that was started by SEYM their solidarity. And SEYM again is Southeastern Yearly Meeting, which is a regional group of Quakers. Exactly. And they then originally, ProNica was a solidarity organization under Southeastern Yearly Meeting. And then it's still connected. In the sense, it's very quickly and it's 50% Quakers on the board. But they became an NGO, their own autonomous group. The people we know there are saying that the resistance has gone towards all NGOs, that the government is not wanting to allow more NGOs to come in because it has external influence. The money that we send through to ProNica for the activities that they do is being held up in the banks. And they're convinced that it's related to people's responses to the canal. It's an octopus that is having influence and very difficult to track down because of the stranglehold they have on information. A long answer, I'm sorry, but it's difficult to answer in simple sentences because it is this web. Life is a web and the problem is webbed. Very complex. And also, in Nicaragua, you can hear people who are in favor because the poverty and the government is telling them that they're going to be out of poverty. And people in extreme poverty have a lot of hope because they think the canal is going to help them. And there are others in extreme poverty situation who are not in favor of the canal. It doesn't matter what. It is hard to convince people that are far away from the lake and in extreme poverty situations to understand the impact that is going to bring to Nicaragua. But it's going to be the situation of the whole country is going to be worse because they're going to destroy a beautiful lake. I think I probably tend lean in opposition to the canal, but I still need to gather more information. And I actually haven't heard the arguments in favor of the canal. But I could imagine you can say, well, first of all, it's going to be bigger than Panama Canal, so bigger tankers and such can go through. And they won't have to go as far south. They won't have to go around the end of South America, which means there'll be a vast saving and energy that way. So that would be a good thing if that was saved. So let me know why that's not an important reason to have the canal happen. One thing is that the Panama Canal is already in existence and being widened as we speak to be able to accommodate more. The second thing is that it's or another thing is it's going through sensitive areas. It's affecting people in that way. What's being sold as a positive thing is that this is going to make Nicaragua rich. It's going to bring us out of poverty. And the people that are opposing it are wanting to keep the people suppressed and want to keep Nicaragua poor. And the reality is that like most major corporate things, this is not going to trickle down. The evidence in terms of the Chinese corporation is that they bring in Chinese labor for skilled particularly for large machinery. And the few jobs that the Nicaraguans will get will be the day labor kind of work. Most people that will benefit will be land-grabbers that come in, buy up land and then sell it to the corporation. The idea that Nicaragua will be benefiting from this is Nicaragua now, not certain peoples that are obviously people who are in the corporation or part of that are going to be gaining money is that the contract says that it will take 100 years before it becomes 100% Nicaraguan canal. So that's a piece of it. They've also given imminent domain to this corporation that not only allows it to use the 20 kilometers on either side but also to set up resorts and ports and other things. And just buy imminent domain, claim it and fold it in. So the positive aspect that they are saying is that they'll be able to bring these huge megatankers. The large huge tankers also don't come clean. They empty out their villages, they empty out and they may be restricted but accidents happen. So accidents happen so it's like it would be like yes there's a benefit to the corporation to build this big oil well in the Gulf and then what happens? It begins to leak millions and millions of gallons and have a fire. So that's the problem. And who will benefit? The promise always is and that's always been the promise that the poor people will benefit and the reality is something other than that. So there you are. And when you do a referendum then it's different but they've signed this contract in secrecy. Has there been a referendum? No. This was done by the government and it was done under cloak. Again, the transparency is not there. The information is therefore lacking and when people who have protested are finding it difficult. And you can see in video interviews people who were damaged, their arm was broken or something and when the police were sent to their house because they were part of the resistance to the canal. Even old Sandinistas like Ernesto Cardenal, he split from this. He's opposed to it. He started an artist colony on Soltonami. Soltonami. I mean he's a world recognized poet also and he wrote five poems this past year against the canal. Some other artists also. What's the famous female writer? Joconda Velie. Joconda Velie. Set her amide. All those people who were very active in the revolution, they are no longer with Daniel Ortega and they are opposed to the canal. So what kind of environmental study has been done? Is it only by the government there? Are there outside opinions that would lead you to think differently than what the official brown male protection would be? One outside organization has done a beginning research and they say that the conclusions are they need to do more research but they're predicting the impact to be negative. That's the only independent one. There was one that was contracted by the government and he's an engineer who was paid by the government and he says oh there's going to be no problem. This will benefit his videotaped as in an interview. This will benefit the environment. So in that sense it's like track your sources. The scientists that are saying oh there's no human made climate change. Often when you track them you track them back to mobile or Exxon and that's not the same as the ones that are independent climatologists. Now Nicaragua is also not in a position where they're going to be able to afford and so far the interest has been not a lot because a lot of the information is not out there. Where somebody independent like Audubon or somebody else with money might come in with and do the research. I read via Wikipedia that there's some question about whether the financing for this can actually happen. Theoretically these Chinese billionaires, I see the name Wang Jin, he has something to do with this. Evidently they may have signed the contract about it but then there's still the question of putting your money down to make it happen. Where's that at? The last we heard is exactly where it is that you read that they have not yet come through with the money. We have a family that's still living. Terry has family and I say we because she married me so I get to say we too. And they believe that it's not going to happen because of that. This is going to be one of those things that gets started. Some money gets exchanged and then it's going to fall apart. They also say that Wang Jin who is a billionaire but is associated to the Chinese government and he is looking for other investors that are associated also. So there are rumors that this is like a Chinese government interest in the canal because they would have a territory here in Nicaragua in the backyard of the United States so the things can get more complicated. And they also, Nicaragua is also one of the 16 countries that where China is looking for the factories that they pay very low to people. Places where they can get by with paying very little money. Exactly. Free trade zones. So, Nicaragua is one in their list so they think they have interest on that also. Fill in some more of the environmental portions of this. On the eastern side of the country I think I read something about there's a river that they want to follow for part of it. There's Lake Nicaragua in the middle on the western side. I don't know how much the difference is in the sea levels between the two. How much they have to go up, go down and what that entails mechanically. Any ideas? No. I mean those are engineering. I have some diagrams that I didn't bring with me that I would refer to because I don't have them off the top of my head. But it's much longer than the Panama Canal. It's 170 kilometers long. It will start on the east and it goes through some of the river and will come out on the western side and it goes through mostly through the southern part of the Lake Nicaragua. So, the environmental impact is going to be that it shifts all of those because it's going to have this large path. It's going to shift everything. It's going to divide the country at that point also because one part will be on the south side and one will be on the north side. For people of money, that may not be a major issue, but for people who are poor than trying to get across back and forth, it's going to be much more difficult. There's also in the sense of going through, it's going to wildlife will lose that cord or also all the way through across the country. When you cut through the middle of wetlands or you cut through a preserve, you shift the balance of what's happening in those preserves, you cut off that connection. Conservation people are trying to create corridors and this is doing the opposite. So the environmental impact seems to be very strong. The potential for pollution of the lake is probably the most significant because water is gold. There are people that are saying this will be the next thing that we'll be fighting over after oil is going to be water. I just want to remind listeners that we are speaking with Brad Stalker and Terry Campos. They are both involved with getting the word out about the transatlantic canal through Nicaragua that's planned, signed for, but still not very far underway. The Nicaragua inter-oceanic canal presents really significant environmental threats that have not been studied, I guess due to corruption and due to self-interest of a few rich people. You can look it up. I'll have a link to the Wikipedia site about it as well as to a link to southeastyearlymeeting.org/earthcare-committee.html. That's a committee that's attempting to bring this information to light, so we can make a wise decision about this. This is Spirit in Action, which is a Northern Spirit radio production on the web at nordancepiritradio.org, where you'll find 10 years of our programs for free listening and downloading. You'll find the list of the radio stations across the country where this program is carried in much more information. There's also a place to post comments, and we do ask that when you visit, post a comment and make our communication two-way, the best kind. There's also a place where you can click support. This is full-time work, and we live by your donations, so click on support to help us. But even more important than that, remember to support your local community radio stations. They provide an alternative to the mainstream news and music that you get nowhere else on American airwaves. To find kind of information, which is not politically sanctioned or not economically sanctioned, we need our community radio stations. So before you support Northern Spirit radio, start with your stations. We need that corridor of information open to us. Again, Brad Stalker and Terry Campos here. Terry's Nicaraguan-born, and so this is one of the issues that the two of you have been very concerned about, and I do hope all of our listeners follow up. But that's not all that you're involved with. Could you talk about the Earth Care Committee that's part of Southeastern Yearling Meeting, Brad and Terry? Your involvement with that, what kind of efforts? I mean, why should we care just because Florida is going to be submerged underwater because of climate change? Why should they be worried? Just because you can say goodbye to my grandkids' home. I'm the Southeastern Yearling Meeting representative to Quaker Earthcare Witness. And Quaker Earthcare Witness is a North American Quaker organization that deals with environmental ecological concerns. And we've been here at FGC with a week-long workshop every day in the morning. Why should we be concerned? It's interesting. I think Rick Scott is not concerned, evidently. Rick Scott has banned climate change from the vocabulary of people who work for him, and that's beyond rumor that apparently has been substantiated. They're not in writing. He won't be refused to put it in writing, but people were in meetings where he actually said that. Well, I think we should be concerned. I mean, South Florida is obviously concerned, and partially where we live. They're treating it by amelioration. They're doing what they can build up pumps and so forth. But South Florida is built on permeable rock. So the water will come up through the rock, and you can't dike it like in Holland, for example. But larger than that, I mean, it's one planet. It's one home. Sea rise might not be happening in Indiana or Michigan or Central Canada, but there are other things that are happening. Animals are shifting because growing seasons are changing. Plants are not surviving in certain areas, so the impact of climate change is being felt elsewhere. It's a whole shift of what's happening, and when you find that shift of what's happening on a global level, you need to be concerned. This is your planet. No matter where you are, you can't get away from it. We feel, Terry and I feel, and what we've been studying also, is that if you love your home, you usually take care of it. You'd think so, wouldn't you? Brad, you could be just an average person concerned. You could be as well-educated about environmental science as Rick Scott is. Do you have some credentials that we can share with our listeners that will show that you are at least a bit a little bit better informed? It's interesting, if you've heard Brooks' which CV do you want? Do you want the one for the job interview, or do you want the one they say at your eulogy, or your eulogy? I tend to lean towards the other. I have a postgraduate degree in ecology and human spirit, and that and the fact that I've been teaching other teachers the new story and the story of the universe. We've been involved in it, and so through process of being surrounded by others of like mind and who are better educated in certain things, when we went to the workshop, there are people who know this part. They know the architects who are lead certified. I don't know that, but I know where to get that, and I know that person, and I'm learning from that person. The ecologist that's over here, I travel with a good friend of ours as a biologist, so I'm also learning, and it's not in my credit list of university credits. Terry also went through the same program at St. Thomas University of ecology and human spirit, and so we were a Genesis farm, we studied there, which I mentioned before. She spent an intensive course there. We took courses that took us through Costa Rica. We've been involved. What is a postdoc certificate in ecology and human spirit? What does that specifically teach you? What's the content of that kind of thing? And I want Terry to explain it in great detail. What was that degree? If you took that study, Terry? It is funny for me because it's like learning to have a new conscious about Earth, about being human, not as part of Earth, but as Earth's Earth itself. And it's funny for me because we shouldn't have courses like that. We should know this from just observing the universe, observing other species, but we are so disconnected. We have been so disconnected that we have to have these kind of courses where you learn that we live in a system, because there are a lot of people who don't know that we have a system living in systems, among systems in systems. So it's a very intricate web, beautiful web, and we have to have courses that teach us that. Sadly. I think I would say I've spent my life in academia. I'm overqualified in terms of degrees. My dad had to drop out of school. So he kept every time I'd bang my head on the rafter under the house, or I'd hit my hand with a hammer. He'd go, "Do you want to do that or do you want to go to college?" So I did this overcompensatory thing. And I'm here to tell you, I learned a lot, I don't begrudge it, but I've learned a lot more in the way that Terry's talking, and from other people, and going out into the eye of Percolates, and going out into the mountains, and understanding that my place in this universe is not what I was being taught most of those times in school. That my relationship to the universe is that I am part of the universe. I am the universe that when it was created, every element in my body was created at that time. That I'm not separate. There's no dualism. We are connected. That when I take water, that water becomes me. And that's an important difference not just to be able to say it, but to feel it the way Terry naturally felt it when she grew up in that magical realism of her world where that separation wasn't so hard and fast. So it comes much more naturally to her. I needed to be retaught, and I needed to relearn that. So part of what we are trying to do is to share that, hold your breath, see how long you can do without the atmosphere. Is that directions from me right now? So anyone who's out there. I mean, that's what we tend to think. And this may be a little sidebar here. Pope Francis just put out an encyclical. And I know we're Quakers talking about the spirit. Pope Francis's encyclical is something that everyone should read. It is on the environment. And he's going around on a tour now talking in these, I believe in Keto soon, if not already, talking about the environment. And I'm going to summarize it and paraphrase it. And I hope it doesn't mess up everybody who ends up reading it. But part of what he says is basically the idea that you own the planet, you own Earth, that you picked out of, you think you got from Genesis. It means you didn't understand Genesis. And when Pope Francis says it in his way, it's much more eloquent. But to hear the Pope say that, who is a leader of a major religious institution, say you basically misunderstood Genesis, it wasn't yours to abuse. It wasn't given to you to eat up. It was given to you to take care of. And that's huge. And that's important. I just want to say that I am a teacher. I teach middle school. I've been working with middle school students. And to me, it is heartbreaking when I see the kids so disconnected from the environment, from Earth. And then it has been a blessing to be there with them to help them for the transition when they realize how much lie we have told them. And it's just heartbreaking. See them, you know, confused and depressed and disconnected. So I wish we had another, a better system, an education system that is more wholeness, you know, more integrated with the environment with Earth. I note, Terry, that you also serve as on the board of directors of Proneka, or you did recently. What was your work there? Well, I was in the Solidarity Committee, the Solidarity Committee in Proneka, in the board. What is a Solidarity Committee? The Solidarity Committee is we discussed, not discussed, we'd see how Solidarity with Nicaragua would be, how to... How to work with the groups that are... How to project the Solidarity to the people in Nicaragua, and because what we don't want is the colonialism kind of Solidarity. I took over her place. So if you can remember the quote from Galliano, that would help because that's the concept of Solidarity that we're working with. Yeah. We want to work with a new concept of Solidarity. That's the main thing. So we don't want to go to Nicaragua and tell the Nicaragua ones what to do, and we know better than, you know, that kind of... Or you are poor, and we are coming here to help you. First of all, to know that poverty is really impoverishing, that people that are on privilege in the world is because of social injustice. And we are, as a part of the whole, we have responsibility about that. And another thing is the concept of if you are not, well, we are not, we're either. We cannot be seeing you that you are not doing good, you know, not doing well. We cannot be happy. So this is kind of a very deep connection. And also with the groups that go from the United States to Nicaragua to make sure that they opened their hearts, the kids, so they can learn from the Nicaragua too. It was fun. I loved it. I think a significant difference is one of the things that Terry said was, we don't go in and say you need this, and we'll give you money to do that if you do it. There are groups and what ProNica calls the groups that are already in existence within Nicaragua. So for example, there's one project that was started that took prostitutes and taught them the skill of beauty salon. Hairdresser. Hairdresser and beauticians. That helped them to move out of that. Well, then it was, they wanted to do that, then the person came to help them. The kids, taking the kids that were glue sniffers, there was a project to get them off the street, already in existence. ProNica calls them partners. And so ProNica has in-country people there that works with those organizations. That's different than us coming in and setting it up. And so that's just a few of the programs that ProNica has been involved with for maybe 20 plus years that it's been around, and you can find ProNica via my website too. I'll have a link there. It's been wonderful having you here. I'm really glad that you're enlightening me and our listeners about the Nicaragua interosanic canal. It's something that we need to know about, and I can't really imagine that they can move forward on this without a proper environmental study, but that's what they're doing. I guess some people are just all heedless to the cost. I'm glad that you're not. I'm glad you're connected to the land and to the volcanoes and to the creatures of the whole earth. And I thank you so much for your work that way. Thank you, Mark. It was nice meeting you, Mark. Thank you. Again, we've been speaking today with Terry Campos and Brad Stalker. You'll find a link to them in their work with Southeastern Yearly Meeting. That's S-E-Y-M.org/EarthCare-Committee. The link is on NortonSpiritRadio.org, as is a link to more info on the proposed Nicaragua canal. We'd love to have you continue your education about the issues and for you to raise your voice for ecological sanity. Let's close with a song that is so near and dear to my heart. The name is Swimming to the Other Side, and it's written by Pat Humphries, part of the group, Emma's Revolution. But today we'll share the version I first learned, performed by Magpie. It's a great song, full of a kind of connection to the earth and creation that Brad and Terry talked about today. And the Swimming to the Other Side is not, by the way, advocating for the canal, but just how we should journey with nature. Think deep, feel deep, enjoy the music, and we'll see you next week for Spirit and Action. Magpie Swimming to the Other Side. We are living with a great big tipper. We are washed by the very same rain. We are swimming in a stream together, some in power and some in pain. We can worship this crown. We walk on, cherishing the beams that live beside. Loving spirits will live forever. We're all swimming to the Other Side. I am alone, I am searching, hungering for answers in my time. I am balanced at the break and wisdom. I am impatient to receive a song. I am a horde of my sentences open, imperfection to be my crime. In humility I will listen. We're all swimming to the Other Side. We are living with a great big tipper. We are washed by the very same rain. We are swimming in a stream together, some in power and some in pain. We can worship this crown. We walk on, cherishing the beams that live beside. Loving spirits will live forever. We're all swimming to the Other Side. On this journey, thoughts and feelings, finding intuition in my head, my heart. I am gathering the twos together. I breathe there into my heart. All of those who have come before me, band together and be my guide. Loving lessons that I will follow. We're all swimming to the Other Side. We are living with a great big tipper. We are washed by the very same rain. We are swimming in a stream together, some in power and some in pain. We can worship this crown. We walk on, cherishing the beams that live beside. Loving spirits will live forever. We're all swimming to the Other Side. ♪ When we get there, we'll discover all of the gifts we've been given to share. We've been with us since life's beginning and we never noticed they were there. We can dance at the brink of wisdom, never recognizing that we've arrived. Loving spirits will live together. We're all swimming to the Other Side. We are living with a great big tipper. We are washed by the very same rain. We are swimming in a stream together, some in power and some in pain. We can worship this crown. We walk on, cherishing the beams that live beside. Loving spirits will live forever. We're all swimming to the Other Side. We are living with a great big tipper. We are washed by the very same rain. We are swimming in a stream together, some in power and some in pain. We can worship this crown. We walk on, cherishing the beams that live beside. Loving spirits will live forever. We're all swimming to the Other Side. Loving spirits will live forever. We're all swimming to the Other Side. The theme music for this program is "Turning of the World" performed by Sarah Thompson. This spirit in action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio. You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website, northernspiritradio.org. Thank you for listening. I am your host, Mark Helpsmeet, and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is spirit in action. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. And our lives will feel the echo of our healing. (upbeat music)