Spirit in Action

Time Heals All - Timebanks & Composting

Jamie & Zacharious Pappas dabble in magic - the magical transformations that are possible through creative processes that make bounty & beauty out of our detritus and down-time. First they founded the Chippewa Valley Timebank, knitting community out of spare talents, and now they are launching Earthbound Environmental Solutions to make rich soil out of organic waste typically buried in landfills.

Duration:: 55m
Broadcast on:: 15 Mar 2015
Audio Format:: other

[music] ♪ Let us sing this song for the healing of the world ♪ ♪ That we may hear as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world alone ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. ♪ Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world ♪ ♪ That we may dream as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world alone ♪ With Spirit in Action, I strive to spotlight those making a real difference in our world in the hope that we will learn from their example and knit bonds of community which will support such good work. Jamie and Zacharias-Pappas came to my attention right here in Eau Claire, Wisconsin as prime examples of this kind of work. A few years back, they founded the Chippewa Valley Time Bank matching talents and skills with needs and aspirations. In a way that solidifies our neighborhoods. And they are now launching an enterprise called Earthbound Environmental Solutions which will separate organics from our garbage load and produce that magic earth called Compost. In a moment, we'll sit down with Jamie and Zacharias-Pappas in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, but first a little mood and theme music. Kind of torch song and soft shoe about garbage and compost. It's by Earthmama and it's called Let It Raught. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ You may think they're not good ♪ For anything anymore ♪ ♪ ♪ Yesterday's silent ♪ This morning's of me ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Or not seems so great to you ♪ But it could be some organism's feast ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Yes, Compost ♪ ♪ Don't put it in the garbage ♪ Don't put it down the sink ♪ Don't be surprised ♪ If it makes a mistake just put it up ♪ Back by the garden of blood ♪ Let it rot, let it rot, let it rot ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Grass clippings ♪ ♪ Art of leaves ♪ ♪ It'll come a new year ♪ ♪ To the vegetable store ♪ ♪ For a hot mix ♪ To be sure ♪ ♪ Holy bread ♪ ♪ A cabbage and ♪ ♪ A redless gas ♪ ♪ A wrong one ♪ ♪ What you're making ♪ Is brand new world ♪ For through its hours ♪ I've beenched above ♪ ♪ For making come ♪ ♪ It's come ♪ Don't put it in the garbage ♪ Don't put it down the sink ♪ Don't be surprised ♪ If it makes a mistake just put it up ♪ Back by the garden of blood ♪ Let it rot, let it rot, let it rot ♪ ♪ ♪ Turn it with a shovel ♪ ♪ And leave it alone ♪ ♪ And just let it work ♪ ♪ The earthworms ♪ ♪ You can have a party there ♪ ♪ Making some excellent dirt ♪ ♪ Just keep adding your kitchen waste ♪ ♪ As it accumulates ♪ ♪ It's all technology ♪ ♪ I can hardly wait ♪ ♪ For come ♪ ♪ We're making come ♪ ♪ Don't put it in the garbage ♪ Don't put it down the sink ♪ Don't be surprised ♪ If it makes a mistake just put it up ♪ Back by the garden of blood ♪ Let it rot, let it rot, let it rot ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Let it rot by earthmama ♪ And now to our guests, Zacharias and Jamie Papas. It's great to have you here today for spirit in action. Thank you very much for having us. Yeah, it sure is a treat. Thank you. You are bringing a font of energy to the Chippewa Valley. I noticed you first in connection with the time bank and over the past few years. I've done several interviews with folks who are involved in the recent time bank as certainly one of those forms. But to hear your projects with the compost right now, I'm really excited. Garbage and compost and changing our waste stream and allowing us to connect better with the world. So I need to get an idea of why you come here with this vision and energy. Give me a little bit of background on what leads you to things like the time bank and to environmentally oriented garbage and compost collection. So I think being a lifelong resident in Eau Claire and of the Chippewa Valley, I saw opportunity from a very early age in Eau Claire with respect to vacant lots, empty parcels, a decimated downtown. Being a resident of this community and seeing the progress that we've made, notably over the last five or so years, I've really wanted to become more immersed in the local community and I felt looking back to about 2010 that bringing a time bank to this area would be a really great opportunity for community members to unite around a common cause, around an old world practice. And it was again an idea that I thought people could wrap their heads around. Relative to composting, it's a practice that we've all been doing. You know, it's something that makes a lot of sense. And I think it takes leadership to demonstrate that what we do in our backyards can be replicated in the private sector. And so I think that that was one of my desires for the Chippewa Valley. And what about you, Jamie? Is this energy that you got through Zacharias? Is this your own background of environmental time bank, these kind of social engineering efforts that really are going to improve our community? For me, it definitely was something that started based on my relationship with Zacharias. And so we were very passionate in the beginning of our relationship about being environmentally conscious, and that has grown over the 10 years that we have been together. And the composting is something that we started in our own basement. So believe it or not, mid-winter, we got a shipment of red wigglers, got them set up in our basement and have been and did the Verma composting method. And that was very exciting to us. We came out with a quality product, and we were able to divert our own organic material from going into our garbage. And so it kind of gave us the drive to start looking to say, you know, I bet you there's other people out there that would think that this would be cool and that they would want to take part in this. And from there, definitely grew into something much larger than I think we ever thought it would be and much more awesome than we ever thought it would be. And really wanting to make sure that people understand there's an option out there to divert this material from going and sitting in a landfill. You know, I'm tempted to go two directions at once, but I think I'm going to start with the time bank idea. There may be a number of our listeners who aren't familiar with the time bank and have never participated in one. First of all, where did you two get exposed to the idea of time bank and tell us how it works? Time banking is a system that is structured pretty much just like a cash money bank in that time bank uses a form of currency and that currency is time. And through the use of that currency, members in the time bank, just like in a cash money bank, can exchange that currency. So what we do in a time bank is we allow participants to exchange time dollars based on their gifts, talents, and abilities. We have an online listing system that allows participants in the time bank to make visible things that they need help with and things that they can offer. And so we use that listing service to help connect people to participate in what we call an exchange. An exchange would be two members, either giving or receiving their gifts, talents, and abilities. And when that exchange is completed, we kind of consider that to be like a transaction. And so one member's account is debited and one member's account is credited. And so these are things that we've been doing for hundreds of years. The difference between old practices and what we do now is that we have an electronic system that supports the time bank. In a nutshell, a time bank is just the system that we use to facilitate being a good neighbor, being a good citizen, being a good steward of your community. There's a number of different facets of it that I think we have to explore to understand how this works. First of all, unlike a regular bank, I think you self-report your hours in a time bank. And my bank doesn't let me get away with that when I tell them I've deposited $1 million. They have to scrupulously oversee everything I do. I don't have the sense that you need to do that in a time bank. Why not? What we have found with the time bank is that it's an honor system. So this is a system where you're asking the community if they want to be involved in the time bank, sign up for that service, and you do need to be trustworthy. That's why they're doing the background checks on these folks. So as being a part of the time bank, you're saying, you know, I'm going to offer a good service. And at the end of that exchange, I'm going to trust that the person I provided that service to will release their hours to me so that I can have them credited to my account. And that is how that works. So the individual, myself, for instance, I would have five hours in my bank and I may have you come over to help me out with a job painting, let's just say. And if you were there for two hours, I would need to sign off, essentially, in saying you've spent those two hours at my home, and I released two of my five hours to you for coming over to help me with that time. So it's really two individuals working together versus, you know, when you mention your bank, it's a much larger and different system. Is there any limitation on the kind of services one can offer? Can professional people help out? I mean, you've got computer experts, or maybe you've got radio program producers, or maybe there's a doctor or a lawyer there. Do any of those people participate in yours? And I'm wondering, some of those folks, I'm going to be happy with the idea of equal valuation. My hour of my times were equal to an hour of your time. One of the core principles of time banking believes in the idea of redefining work. So what the time make community believes is that, yes, there are doctors and there are lawyers and there are professionals in a variety of industries, but there are also homemakers. There are also community watch members. There are also babysitters, caregivers. There are a number of very, very essential community members, community supports, if you will, that sometimes are recognized as being a lesser value in terms of socioeconomic status. So in the time bank, people choose to voluntarily participate. And because we view everyone's time as being equal, people coming into the time bank realize that an hour is an hour, is an hour, is an hour. And so if you give an hour of your time, it doesn't matter if you are an electrician, a person providing massage therapy, a person providing transportation services, meal preparation, whatever, your time is valued as a participant in the community, nothing more, nothing less. And I understand Zacharias, that's a philosophy. Do you get pushed back on it? Do you get people who say, I don't want to participate? Do you have professional people saying, well, yeah, I'm a nurse, I'm a doctor, I'm an electrician, I'm happy to trade my time. Does that happen, Jamie? Actually, one of the really cool things is that we've had a lot of different people participate in the time bank. I do know that there's a massage therapist that has been involved in the time bank, and we've had a lot of members tap into that, which is great. One thing that stands out on the top of my mind is that there was a student through the UW that needed somebody to participate in a mock plane crash for one of their projects, and they were able to reach out. Not necessarily a professional, but still kind of one of those rare things where you're thinking, wow, but they were able to get that need met through the time bank. So in terms of resistance, not that I'm aware of, has there been much resistance from professionals saying, you know, I'm not really interested. It may just be that we're not aware of it because they're not exploring this option, but there have been professionals in the community that have signed up for the time bank that are interested in giving their time to be able to exchange. Some people will ask, I'm sure, and you've got this in your publicity, is this barter? And the IRS has ruled, no, it's not barter. Barter is actually taxable, or they want to get some share of that. Could you explain why this is not barter, how it's different, and why people don't have to worry about tax implications? Time banking relies on a system of reciprocity, a system that values time equally. And so in the barter system, what you're doing is you're assigning different values to either side of that exchange. So again, in the time bank, the way that we work around that is we value everybody's time in a standard uniform way in the form of a time dollar. So if you are a lawyer, doctor, or otherwise another professional and you exchange your time with a gardener, that's one for one. It isn't two for one or three for one based on your professional expertise, it's that you are offering your gift talent or ability to the community, and the time bank community is again responding through the use of time and time dollars. You really don't have to convince me, but maybe there's some of the listeners who need to be convinced why they'd want to deal with a time bank. Why not just deal with filthy liquor, just take that money, exchange those filthy dollars that usually have traces of cocaine on them, they've been through everything. I understand they're one of the most germ-laden things that we have in our society. So why a time bank, why not just deal with the monetary system? Jamie? I think as a society it seems easier to want to go to the store and buy something or want to call someone up and purchase a service. And what we're really, the time bank is trying to bring back to the community is that understanding that neighbors used to help each other, that was just kind of expected, it's just what you did, and people really valued that a lot, and we don't operate that much anymore. It's still happening, but not very much. And so I think for people to be able to understand that your neighbors are valuable, get out of your house a little bit more, start shaking hands with people in your community, and recognize all of the various resources that are available to you, and you don't have to open your pocketbook to that. That's really a very eye-opening experience to realize how much opportunity is out there, and you don't have to pay for that. And in the end you can also end up helping someone else who, you know, maybe really does struggle financially and needs assistance. You can help that individual as well. And that makes a lot of sense to me. Another thing I've heard in favor of alternative currencies, and specifically time bank works this way as well, is that during recessions, when cash flow dries up, people can't get a job, they can still exchange their labor, and that can make an entire difference in terms of community continuing to thrive. Have you studied this, is there documented evidence that you've seen from the time bank about how this works? When we talk about time banking, you know, what we're really talking about is asset-based community development. And so when times are tough, yes, we do see people reaching out to their neighbors, to their family, asking for things that they might otherwise purchase in the form of support or assistance. So yes, I do see from looking at the literature that in times of economic recession and low points in our economy that time banks really are away, if you will, to fill in those gaps. And I think that that really represents the whole philosophy, again, behind time banks and going back to your earlier question about why somebody might want to or might have some resistance to time banking as opposed to a cash money bank, time banks don't exist to facilitate a transaction. Time banks exist to strengthen the quote unquote fabric of the community. And so that's why we have a certain type of participant that finds a time bank, a desirable marketplace to participate in because it gives people purchasing power that don't otherwise have it. It allows for people to create meaningful relationships. It allows for the community to be stronger. And yes, cash money banks can do that very well on their end, but the purpose for us is primary, whereas in other systems, it might be secondary, community building, that is. You, Jamie, and Zacharias are part of the Chippewa Valley Time Bank, and that's the website, ChippewaValleyTimeBank.org. You're connected, though, with the national system. You're using something that's been put in place all over. So our listeners who could be anywhere across the United States, or actually there's people who listen overseas as well, if they want to find out about this, where should they go? How do they connect up? What's the device? Maybe they want to start a time bank where they are, or maybe they want to hook up with one that exists. Zacharias? So going back to an earlier question in the interview, I had asked, why did we get involved in this? Well, we were mentored by the Dane County Time Bank. And so when we returned on to the idea, we were directed, then, back to Time Bank's USA. And so if folks are looking to learn more about starting a time bank, if they're looking for a toolkit, there is a lot of startup support that is available through Time Bank's USA. And I would recommend that people go back there first as a starting point, and then maybe reach out to their local community to see if things like this already exist in one form or another, whether it's a time bank, or a volunteer organization, that might be a good starting point locally. I will in a moment want to get to compost and garbage collection, or not compost, I like to call it pre-soil. But first, I have a couple more questions related to this Time Bank stuff. It seems to me that one of the fundamental motivations behind it is this nurturing of community. And I've observed, and it's been fundamental. In Quakers, we have this idea of simplicity. How do you live a simple life? How do you live in a way that you're authentic in what you live? And I do find that money comes between us. That money means that I don't go to my neighbor and ask to borrow a cup of sugar because I can hop in my car and I can run to mega foods and I can spend some money. But that means that I don't even necessarily know my neighbors. There's been a breakdown in society because of the way that we use funds. For me, that lack of connection with neighbors and that dependence on money has looked to me to be a soul deadening, a community deadening force. You two are still quite a bit younger than I am, maybe about 30 years younger. Have you observed that kind of breakdown in our society? What motivates you to be concerned about the good of community? Is there somehow that this desire for connection grew up in you? I mean, you know, Time Bank is all very cute piece of software running on Internet, but why on a personal level does this matter to you? And I'm really hoping to hear your story of what makes this difference for you? What motivates you? Jamie, do you have some observations about that? I think for me personally, I have a lot of history working in the realm of people with disabilities. And so for me, you know, when Zacharias brought the concept of the Time Bank back and kind of was introducing that to me, it was very intriguing because the population of people that I work with or have worked with, you know, they don't have a lot of money. And as you were talking, you know, that definitely pulls you away from your community feeling like you need that money in order to get out and to do things. So it was very interesting to me to be able to have an idea where a lot of the people I work with can access this and really get out there and understand what their community has to offer. So I came at it from that perspective and really just wanting to help the people, like I said, that I work with, understand there's resources out there for you. There's always resources, but this is a very big resource that you can tap into a lot of different areas just by being involved in the Time Bank. And Zacharias, what about for you? Where does this motivation? What are the stories? How concretely has your soul been prepared to do this kind of work? Well, I think, believe it or not, for the folks that know me anyways, I've been an underdog, you know, most of my life. And I think I carry myself well, but those experiences of being cast in the underdog role have really led me to become a leader. At least I consider myself a leader for others in our community that maybe need a pioneer, a trailblazer. And so I think that it's certainly one thing to put something out on Facebook and consider that a way of advocating, a way of, well, I'm at a loss for words. I don't really know what it is, but I do know that I desired something more for my life, and I desired to become activated. And I thought that in terms of the Time Bank, this is a great way for people to activate. And I think that people are really looking for opportunities like the Time Bank. And again, you know, I certainly have done a lot of soul searching in my life and have found that the Time Bank and things like that have really helped me become a more fuller, whole person and have helped me connect to my community, you know, just like the story of the Giving Tree, you know, where the boy cut the tree, I found now myself not wanting to cut any more of the tree and to give back. So I've now become the tree in the story giving back to my community. And again, thinking about the Time Bank, it was a great way for me to activate, get involved, and, you know, help the community. I'm going to try one negative point. It's not one that I fully believe in, although I understand the rationale for those who have this concern, this equal valuation that one hour of my time is equal to one value of your time. I want to let both you, Jamie, and Zacharias know that if you wanted either me or my wife to do some cooking for you, you'd probably be better served from a production point of view to have my wife do it. I think she works about twice as fast as I do. So from that point of view, probably two hours of my time would get done what she would get done an hour. On the other hand, from point of view of love and creativity, when she prepares a soup, she has me tasted it at the end and says, "Mark, what spices doesn't need?" So that's where my time is ultimately valuable. So my question is, how much of a societal mindset are you working against? My time's more value than yours. It's almost this idea of capitalism where, you know, I've got a scrape for every advantage I can get in this bargain. And just equal exchange one-on-one. Are you kidding me? I'm worth three of you. So again, how do you deal with that deeply embedded idea, which is part of our society? Again, going back to the premise of time banks are built on assets. They make to the community assets visible. And so my point in saying that is, you as a community member are making your asset visible to the time-made community because you're really good at it. It's something that you really enjoy. It's something that you typically participate in regularly. And so again, thinking about, you know, three hours of time for one hour of time in efficiencies, most people that participate in the time bank again are offering a gift talent or ability. So it's already something that they're really good at. It's something that they really enjoy. And so, yeah, it might take somebody a little bit longer to do this thing or that thing. But again, really, it's not the time bank that is, is not focused on the actual transaction. Rather, it's focused on the meaningful exchange between two human beings. And most people, and I'm looking at Jamie now, when she's nodding her head, most people that participate in the time bank get that. It's an idea that, you know, they believe in. It's an idea that they share. It's a value. It's a belief, whatever. But we really get those type of people. And that's again why there are a number of different systems throughout the world within our own homes, whatever. Each person has to find the right system for them. And when they do, they typically tend to support that system and hang around in that system for a little while anyways. One more question about time banks before we go on to compost. And that is, I read in your literature that when you finish the training, you start out with three time bucks. You've begun with three that you get to spend or trade or however you use that. And so, my question is, does this inherently mean I can't deficit spend? That is to say, if I need a group of 18 people to help me move, does it mean I have to build up all of my 18 time bucks ahead of time before I can say, help? That is a question that actually came up in the beginning when you're looking at all the aspects of time banking. You know, wondering how is this going to work if we have people that quote unquote are more takers than they are givers. And really we looked at that from the perspective of, you know, it's a time bank. People who are accessing this have needs and they're also wanting to share their abilities. So being able to support people with what their needs are. And so that most definitely may result in someone needing to move and sometimes you can't plan for that. And you can't always plan to have people available to help you. So that may result in someone having a deficit. And I know one of the things that was discussed in the beginning of the time bank days was throughout the system, it's identified that maybe there is someone that is in the negative or isn't a deficit, that that may be an opportunity for, you know, a time bank volunteer to perhaps meet up with that person and be able to talk with them to say, do you need some help maybe tapping into some of those skills and abilities that you have so that you can give back to the time bank. Let's help you try to identify ways that you can be involved in order to bring that deficit up so that you can start contributing to get some of those hours, like I said, in order to take care of that deficit. So it's not necessarily punishing people or saying, you know, you can't access it if you don't have the hours. It's more trying to work with them so that the needs can be met, but also helping them understand, you know, every single person on this planet has something to offer, whether you know it or not. And a lot of times it might help somebody to help you tap into that and the time bank is definitely willing to do that. Yeah, that sounds like the way that I would figure that it would work, Jamie. I'm also imagining, and you just tell me if this has happened or not. I imagine sometimes people, because of hardship in their situation, maybe a period of sickness or injury or something, they might have a long string of time where they can't do much volunteering. And so they're going a little bit deficit. I'm imagining that there's community members who have built up hours who say, I want to donate some of mine to you. Does that happen? It definitely does. And that's one of the great things about the time bank is there's also the option for organizations to be involved. Organizations or even just single members of the time bank, you know, if they are volunteering a lot and they have a lot of those hours built up, one of the great things is that they have the opportunity to donate that time back to the time bank. It's not necessarily singled out to a particular time bank member, but it is able to go back to the time bank so that they can identify which members are in need in order for those hours to be donated to them. I want to get on to the topic of Earthbound Environmental Solutions. But first I want to remind our listeners that you're tuned in to Spirit in Action, which is a Northern Spirit Radio production. We're on the web at northernspiritradio.org and on that site you'll find almost 10 years of our programs for free listening and download. You'll find links to our guests. So if you want to get a hold of Jamie and Zacharias Papas, you can find the link for Chippewa Valley Time Bank.org or in earthbound in viral.com and other information about them. So come to northernspiritradio.org for that. There's also a place to leave comments and we love two-way communication. So when you visit, please do post a comment. There's also a place to support us. Click on support and you can make a donation. That is the way we support this work and it is full-time labor. But even more than that, I want to say first, go out and support your local community radio station with your hands and with your wallets. They're providing you a slice of news and a music that you get nowhere else on the American airwaves. And that's the place I'd like you to start because that's the service that facilitates so many other changes in our society. Start by supporting your local community radio station. Again, we're with Zacharias and Jamie Papas. They've got two enterprises they founded. A few years ago they started the Chippewa Valley Time Bank and just now they're kicking off. They've done a lot of the groundwork for it and within a couple months they'll be starting up earthbound environmental solutions and the web at earthboundenviro.com. And if you can't know how those things are spelled, just come by in nordandspiritradio.org. So we're on the verge of this effort. And I understand when you presented to our local transition town group here in Chippewa Valley that one of the key factors of this is currently in our waste stream, we put about a third of what goes into that is stuff that really should be turned back into soil. It could be productive instead it's locked up for hundreds of years in the stidgion darkness where we put our waste products. So talk to me about why you're starting this up, what you're hoping to accomplish and the road to success. Well I think the vision for Zacharias and I really started again going back to that environmental mindset that we've had for the last ten years that we've been together and that's morphed over time but really just trying to do every single thing that we can for our community and one of those things is looking at the waste stream. When we came across information and learning how much waste goes into our local landfill and the fact that the local landfill is almost tapped out and you know from there that's very, very concerning to us and we love the area that we live in, Wisconsin is extremely beautiful, Eau Claire is wonderful and we don't want to see our land be turned into big mounds of garbage that's just going to sit there that will never, ever go away. And knowing that you know like you said there's a good portion of your garbage 37% of your waste is able to be broken down, it's organic material and it can be diverted from the landfills and what we're hoping to offer, what we will be offering is a facility where that material can go and we can break it down in order to keep it from going to our local landfill. So the objective of earthbound environmental solutions, you're going to take people's garbage so you're going to put some of it into a landfill and some of it will be going into compost. In terms of what goes into the landfill is that in any way different than other haulers do? No, it's exactly the same. What we're going to hopefully do is again demonstrate leadership in the waste management industry, in the waste management landscape that there are alternatives to proven practices. Landfill and waste hauling has been a proven practice. And so I think going back to the earlier question Mark, you know one of the things that happened is Jamie and I sat down at the kitchen table. I'm looking at this table right now and it looks a lot like what we had at our house and we said well there's just got to be a better way of doing this. And we started looking at communities around us seeing that there were compost programs operating and operating successfully for many years and we said well hey look we can do this right here in Eau Claire and in the city of Eau Claire and the county of Eau Claire and so I think that's really why we got into it. And again we're really doing the same thing in a sense of hauling material that is undesirable from people that don't have the ability to process it themselves. When I was a wee little lad they still have what we called garbage dumps. And I understand around the world there's still many places we have garbage dumps. As opposed to landfill right now could you spell out the difference between them one of the things I kind of fondly think of garbage dumps is people would take and get rid of whatever they didn't want at the garbage dump and people would come and say hey I want that springs, I want that old radio frame, whatever. Right now it's all locked up underground is how I understand it works. So you know there are a lot of resources in the community. So one thing that I'm thinking about relative to waste management practices and garbage dumps is things like the really really free market, the giving tree, programs through the University of Wisconsin Eau Claire where residents in the student housing can bring down unwanted material in the form of futons or things like that. And you know put them in a location where people then who may be inclined to desire something like that can take that. You know what we're really talking about here is taking material that really doesn't have a purpose commercially or in the retail market but really has a very high value in the industrial market taking that material from someone's home and putting it in the proper the most appropriate type setting and so for food and leaves and branches and stuff like that the landfill isn't that spot. A compost facility a brush site is and so I think that's what we're talking about. We're taking stuff that really doesn't have any other purpose in the community and finding another purpose for it that then can go back into the community in the form of compost. Admittedly I haven't done a lot of it but I've done a bit of dumpster diving and I'm sometimes amazed. I was telling the two of you before we started interviewing that there is a greenhouse that I built using totally recovered from dumpsters in that kind of dump site windows and storm doors and freezer doors I patch them all together to make a greenhouse without spending any money doing that. Now I know that there's a lot that goes into our waste stream. We've already talked about the 37% which is compost which or should be compost. There's probably another third of it that probably has some use if the right person was looking at it. Is that even legal to consider getting that into the hands they want it? I mean could you theoretically have people come out and say yeah can I look through your stuff and grab what I want? Well we will actually be transporting the garbage to the landfill. So we will not have any of the material other than the organic material coming out to our site. So to I guess bluntly answer the question there would be the opportunity for anyone to come out to ask to look through that material because quite honestly the material won't be there. We would be contracting with a facility in order to transport that material after the hauling process. Actually what I'm trying to do is plant seeds for the next phase. You get rid of the 30% which is organic waste and then you maybe get rid of the next third of it which is reusable stuff if the right person looks at it. You can just walk away with it. My understanding was and I think I participated in this a couple times 50 years ago that is you could go to a garbage dump and you could pay two dollars and walk away with something from it that someone had tossed out because as you all know if you look in a dumpster you'll find a good section of the stuff which is useful if the right person is there to take it. But let's go on to another question and that is compost. One thing that I'm aware of is that when you spoke to us at the transition town group I'm thinking that probably two thirds of the people there already compost their organic waste and those that don't by the way they can haul it out to my house and I'll feed it to my chickens and we'll turn it into compost. But the point being though that your natural customers for your waste disposal which separates out compost are the people who are probably already composting I mean to some degree it makes sense that everybody should compost at their house and neighbors shouldn't complain. Have you talked to the people who said yeah I'd like to compost I can't where I'm living I'm living in an apartment that kind of thing but I don't want to throw it in the garbage. Are you hearing from those people? We definitely are. We're hearing from a lot of folks who say you know I can do this during the summer but in the winter it's on such a small scale that it freezes up and it just kills me over the winter time to have to throw that material away or not being able to do anything with it so we're hearing from those folks we are hearing from folks that live in you know apartment type settings or rental settings where they don't have the space or they even have their own home but they don't have the space to be doing it that are interested and very excited to have an option where this material can go to so that they no longer have to feel badly about that stuff going into the landfill. And when you mentioned 37 percent is that by weight or by volume? I imagine that makes a big difference. Yep so it's 37 percent by volume so we're talking about materials that could be fruits, veggies, compostable plastics, dirt, fines, you know I mean if you think about it what we're trying to do is really change the mindset about what is waste management practices or what are waste management practices. So as an example when you're sweeping the floor and you get a big pile of something and you sweep it into your dust pan you know that material really doesn't even need to go in a compost bag you know something that we're offering or in your garbage bag you know that material can simply be thrown out in your yard and it will become part of that nutrient rich material that is probably dirt compost other decomposing material so I think that yeah there is a heck of a lot of material that's in the waste stream that's you know taking up space in the landfills, taking up space in our hauling vehicles and it really again doesn't belong there so if we can remove that percentage of material or that composition that part of the waste stream from the overall waste stream think about how much more efficient cost savings, time savings this process will eventually be. I think on that note too you know when you look at Wisconsin and all we've done with recycling it's sort of the same mindset and being able to remove the recycling from going to the landfills and there's still people nowadays that still put that in their trash which you know just is enough to break your heart but I think you know being able to kind of help folks switch the mindset like we've had to do with recycling in Wisconsin that is a law now and really what we're hoping for we're very passionate about is trying to help make this become something that you know hopefully at some point may be law that people are expected to do this you know I think personally we kind of look at it as it is our responsibility as you know people on this planet to take care of our mother earth and having this option is just something that seems like a no-brainer for us but you know I think having it out there is something that's law for people to do is will be very important down the road. I'm imagining that you two are not the first people to think of doing this and I'm not sure that Wisconsin is always early adopter although I would always hope I mean in some ways Wisconsin, Minnesota have been at the forefront of the nation and in many important avenues you might always think it's California and New York or something but in fact a lot of things start here so where is this being done already in the US I'm thinking LA and San Francisco the amount of waste that they probably produced they had to confront this long ago either that or bury all their people. There was an EPA study for Region 5 which were Region 5 or Wisconsin is one of a couple states in Region 5 so what the study identified and I think this was done in 2011 is that there was 180-183 programs operating throughout the country right now and maybe a little bit across the border up there north in Canada but going back to your question mark of that 180 Region 5 represented the second highest frequency of composting programs of all regions and so over across the border with our neighbors they at the time had about 30 composting programs running over in Minnesota and so no we're not not the first people to think of it but I think we are people that said hey that's a really good idea and you know let's bring that back to our community because we think that there's a lot of people in our community that would really benefit from that and buy into an early doctor or what have you of a program like that. I would expect no less from this area go Region 5 so I did have a practical question and Jamie mentioned it earlier she said that in winter some people can't don't have the space to compost. What happens in my compost pile is over the winter it gets deeper and deeper warm weather comes along and it shrinks down it turns back into soil in the way it's supposed to. Does this mean that for you on the site that you selected where you're going to be putting the compost does this just mean your pile is going to grow over winter is that what happens there and then it shrinks down in the summers how many acres are you going to cover I mean if people are really fruitful over the winter does this mean you too might get buried? Well I can certainly tell you we have plenty of space so we actually have several acres out at the site that we own we'll only be utilizing a small portion of that acreage out there and you know I think that's a very good question because of the type of operation that we're going to have it will most certainly not be material that will build up in fact it might be quite opposite where we have more during the summer because folks are eating more of the fruits and the vegetables and the farmers markets are going and things like that but we have an identified process so the material that comes in will go into a windrow and that's the way that the compost is set up in order to break down this is a process that we can do all throughout the year and during the winter it's run just the same as it is throughout the summertime in the fall so we're capable of doing that the material doesn't have to be piled up or it doesn't have to be managed any way different in the wintertime versus the summertime so we're definitely prepared for folks to bring it on and we're ready to go with what they've got and I might just add relative to people's experience a lot of backyard composters just like Jamie and I are and have been we practice a method called cold composting so what I mean by that is our piles still get warm in the backyard but not anywhere near the sustained temperatures that we get out at the property or out at the site those windrows which are essentially long piles of material reach temperatures of anywhere between 132 degrees Fahrenheit and 150 degrees Fahrenheit and we sustained those temperatures for a specific period of time to kill any type of unwanted pathogen weed seed flower seed things like that that people don't want in their gardens flower beds so on and so forth so oftentimes people relate their own experience to what we do and actually like I said our operation is much larger and a little more mechanically inclined than your your backyard pallet compost bin. I do have actually a lot more questions but I'm afraid we're going to run out of time here I want to mainly check with you one more time about what motivates you why are you such big environmentalists why don't you like concrete and steel and I'm really wondering if this is implanted in your childhood is this the families you grew up with why are you so passionate about this I am thankful that you are but I really want to understand what leads people to be wonderful leaders in our community you know I think for me it didn't come from my childhood I don't quite honestly I don't know how to answer that in terms of it being ingrained or anything like that it definitely wasn't my my parents are wonderful and they have now that we've explored this new avenue they are ready to compost and there on board but I wasn't necessarily raised in that respect it's just something that I think grew in me and having someone else that you're in a relationship with that that's also a passion of theirs and you kind of are growing together you know like I said this is morphed over ten years but you know being able to grow together that definitely helps drive the passion out you know so starting with well guys we really got to take our cans in and get a couple of pennies for that you know now it's everything I mean it's in us every day everything we do with the water and the lights and all of that it's it's extremely important to us and I don't I don't have an answer for why it is we are just those people that I mean it drives us not soon we see stuff in the garbage and it should be recycled and and I don't know why but but I'm one of those people and and I know Zacharias is too and and I know that you probably are too Mark and so it's it's just one of those things that that I think we've just kind of grown into people that feel very passionate about our environment and it's very simple it's very very simple I think people are often too prone to take the easy way and it is extra work to save your environment but boy it really sure feels good at the end of the day and that's what's important to me I think for me you know growing up on the north side of Eau Claire I was fortunate because we had the city well system so we lived right by Riverview Park and those experiences growing up going and catching garter snakes and red belly snakes and being immersed in nature I think just transformed me in in such a way that I didn't even realize it at the time and it really only came to fruition in my adulthood and so I think at the end of the day you know when people are on our end of the microphone I'm pointing at myself now and we're asked that question whatever it is you know why are you a you know law enforcement professional or an EMT or a school teacher or whatever not saying that I'm any of those things but I think it comes down to being a good human being and I think and I'm looking at Jamie and looking at Mark we're good human beings and people have a desire to be good and this is our gift talent and ability that we're demonstrating here and our way of giving back to the community and so I think that you know it feels great to be doing something good that's my motivation is feeling good doing good beautifully said Zacharias I want to thank both of you for taking the time actually what I really want to thank you for is being this nurturing energy to our community to make a community whole and to be the best that it can be is a great gift to share with the world and by doing both Chippewa Valley Time Bank and by doing an earthbound environmental solutions these are efforts that are making Eau Claire and I think the world such a transformed place so thank you for doing that and thank you for joining me today for spirit in action thank you very much Mark for having us we appreciate this opportunity yeah thanks again Mark it really has been awesome that was Zacharias and Jamie Pappas of both Chippewa Valley Time Bank.org and earthbound environmental solutions we'll see you next week for spirit in action. The theme music for this program is Turning of the World performed by Sarah Thompson. This spirit in action program is an effort of Northern spirit radio you can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website northernspiritradio.org thank you for listening I am your host Mark helps me and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit may you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light this is spirit in action with every voice with every song we will move this world with every voice with every song we will move this world along and our lives will feel the echo of our healing