Spirit in Action

Holistic Ministry

Dawn Ravella does amazing and varied work for the healing of the world - restorative justice and prison ministries, food pantries and homeless shelters, education on social justice issues, and on and on. She is currently Director of Mission and Outreach at The Reformed Church of Bronxville, and has served Presbyterian and Catholic churches in similar roles, in addition to her work as a holistic therapist.

Duration:: 55m
Broadcast on:: 14 Sep 2014
Audio Format:: other

[music] ♪ Let us sing this song for the healing of the world ♪ ♪ That we may hear as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world home ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. ♪ Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world ♪ ♪ That we may dream as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world home ♪ My guest today for Spirit in Action is Don Ravella. Don is, and has been since 2008, the Director of Mission and Outreach of the Reformed Church of Bronxville. Before that, she was Director of Outreach Ministries for the Madison Avenue, Presbyterian Church, New York, New York. And before that, she spent eight years as the Director of Parish Social Ministry for St. Edward, the Confessor Roman Catholic Church in Syaset, New York. Overlapping with this and other positions has been her work as a psychotherapist with a holistic approach, incorporating hypnotherapy and spirituality. But all of this gives you clues, but doesn't really tell you what Don does. She brings people together to heal the world, both in concrete and spiritual ways. Don Ravella joins us today from her offices at the Reformed Church of Bronxville in New York. Don, I'm so pleased to have you here today for Spirit in Action. Thank you for having me, Mark. Thanks for that beautiful introduction. Well, my introduction to you, of course, was through your husband. And when I spoke with Glenn, he was so impressed with you. It's really wonderful to have a husband that I think is that appreciative of the wife. How long have you two been together? Nine years, and I'm grateful for him every single day. He's the sweetest. And people can listen to his Song of the Soul interview. I'll have a link right from this program as well. But let's start out. Having looked over your resumes and your job descriptions, I have to say, Don, I'm a bit exhausted and overwrought at the same time. I want to address in detail a number of the programs that you've both created and which you shepherd. But first, I want to start with a rather obvious question. This work puts you in the midst of a boiling cauldron of human pain and needs far beyond anything that any single person can hope to make a dent in. So what drives you to, as I conceive it, sit in the hot seat like that? Well, actually, there's another perspective, which is it puts me in the seat where I'm able to see the strength and the beauty of people that other people don't get to see. So there's a lot of people that are considered on the fringes or the drugs of the earth. But the reality is they're beautiful people and I get to walk a part of their journey with them and feel like it's sacred when they share their story and I can just see their beauty and gifts and spirit and strength. So it's really a huge gift for me. That's one of the best parts of the work. And that sounds to me like what Glenn was saying you're like, that you do have that perspective. I note that your education started out with the Bachelor of Arts in Social Science and Psychology, and that was way back in 1989. And it wasn't until 2013 that you also got a doctorate of ministry, that one from New York Theological Seminary. I'm intrigued by your concrete healing the world's social worker side and also the fact that you're doing this in religious context. And I've got a couple of questions about that. But first of all, back in 1989 when you got your BA degree, were you clearly headed to work within religious frameworks? No, actually I started college as a business major. My dad was an entrepreneur and I worked in his card store throughout high school and college. But while I was there I started doing volunteer work on my lunch hour and go work in a soup kitchen and at night I worked on a suicide hotline and on the weekend I was a rape survivor advocate. And I thought that I would just be doing volunteer work. But one of the places that I was volunteering was a church. I heard a priest speak there, his name was Father John White. And he talked about the church as a sleeping giant if you mobilize them, that the church could be a moral voice in the public arena for the issues. Because when it doesn't take long when you're working with people in need to see that there's a lot of underlying issues that need to be addressed. It came clear to me that someone who's working really hard full time but is making minimum wage and has children isn't going to make it. And there are other things that need to get addressed. And he talked about mobilizing the church to do those things. And I knew that that was exactly what I believed. And I went and spoke to him and spoke to people at Catholic Charities and when there was a position open they called me for it. Were you raised religiously spiritually? We went to Catholic school, we weren't particularly religious. I don't think that we went to mass every Sunday but they definitely, I went to Catholic school for 21 years actually. Elementary school, high school college, I went to seminary. So I did have a lot of Catholic education. My doctorate's in multi-faith ministry though. I'm going to ask you more about that later. So I think maybe you've already answered this but I want to be clear about it. Is there any reason that you don't, instead of working within this church framework, work as a secular social worker? I mean they're doing a lot of crucial important work out there. Why is the religious context important to you? What are the pros and cons of working of that kind of a choice? So the model that I use actually mobilizes the larger culture by using people's faith to mobilize them. So I think whatever religion you're in, people of faith and justice are called to respond with compassion and love and to work for justice. I'm not aware of the religion that isn't believing those things. So it's a way to get the masses engaged. When I first began it was with the Catholic church so that was a lot easier. I started a public policy education network in our church and it was easy because the bishops would come out with an agenda each year, a political agenda, welfare reform, immigration, against the death penalty. So there's pastoral letters and encyclicals that are coming from the bishops. So it's easy to say well the bishop says this and to organize people. Then when I went on to the Presbyterians and they reformed, you really need to use the scriptures and it's all in the sacred text. They're all talking about these things. So you can get the average person in the pew and move them along. And I think that throughout history those are the kind of things that have started movements and made a big difference. You know I think we live in a secular trending age that there's an increasing percentage of the population which at least they consider themselves to be not part of any religious group. So with the fact that that's growing are you swimming upstream? Are there smaller congregations to draw on or is that power still there growing? How do you perceive that? Well I think that people are calling themselves spiritual but not religious. And all of the work that I do I believe fits into that category. We don't do any proselytizing. I use the quote from St. Francis, "Go out and preach the gospel and if you must use words." So it's all about compassion, loving, inclusive behaviors. And it really doesn't have to fit into the context of any creed or religion. But the religious institution is paying my salary that's offering the context to operate from. And I'm able to get so much more done. And we open all of our services to everyone. Right now a big program that we're working on is with returning citizens that are reentering communities after long-term prison sentences. And all faiths or no faiths are all welcome. So and that's true across the board with volunteers. We're motivated by our faiths but all people are welcome. So I think that includes the larger masses that are saying they're spiritual but not religious. And so I think maybe you've already answered this as well. Are religious groups easier or harder to organize than secular groups? I think you work with both in your contacts. I think that we're humans and there's people that are difficult and people that are not in every different situation. I think all of us actually have both in us. And I think that's true of every context and every institution. You all have good and bad, difficult, not difficult. So I think what you're saying is that it could be difficult or easy in either context. Part of my own perspective is even though I'm Quaker and definitely part of a religious group, getting a group of Quakers to move together is a bit like herding cats. I think there's a number of other religious groups including the Catholic Church I grew up in where you get the encyclical or you get the pastoral letters. You get those and people step together more easily to them. Now I don't know if that's your perspective or not. But it's like okay we're going to work together on this. In my Quaker group people might say well maybe yes, maybe no. We're going to talk about that for a year before we decide that. I think that happens here as well. But my belief is that you only need a handful. It only takes a couple of people or a handful to make great things happen and to start movements the church where I'm at now there's a group of people that are on the mission council that were the ones that started spearheading to get my physician in place years back and they have a strong commitment to live out your faith through mission and social justice work and addressing human suffering and poverty. And that group has been, it's through that small group that so many other, so many great things have happened and then just the ministry here is exploding which is very beautiful. We're helping other congregations that want to replicate some of our work. And the impact is huge and I really believe that comes from the handful of people that care about these things. And the other people are proud and they're supporting them and they're adding a lot to the efforts that are mostly by a handful of people. For example when we have a weekly meeting for people returning from long-term prison sentences there's other people in the church that aren't deeply engaged as the handful I'm speaking of but they'll show up with a meal. It might be once a year and they'll show up with a meal and dine with the people that are participating in the program or maybe they'll buy Christmas gifts for their children or something but because we're a larger community you can reach out and get lots of support but then there's a lot of much more deep work that's being handled by this small committed group. Not to get all scriptural on you but is it one of those cases where you start out with some mustard seeds and it grows into the big tree as Jesus says? Yes and I love that imagery and it helps me all the time to remember that because a lot of the work that we're doing we're not necessarily going to see the fruits of our labor right away and a lot of it is really about long-term relationships and things aren't going to change overnight for a lot of the people that we're working with and we're not going to see attitudes and the larger culture shift overnight so that imagery always helps me. Right now one of the most exciting things that we see bubbling up is conversations about restorative justice. I know that I probably won't see any concrete results in the near future so that mustard seed imagery is so helpful. No I do want to get into a number of the specific kinds of programs you've been involved in and are involved in but one more thing I wanted to ask since 1993 you've worked with the three different churches one Catholic, one Presbyterian and now you're with the Reformed Church of Bronxville which I think is what used to be called Dutch Reformed. Is there any rhyme or reason or internal logic to that progression Catholic Presbyterian Dutch Reformed? Actually not really it was just the right place for me to go at the time. I loved working for the Catholic Church and I love the social justice documents are so beautiful. As a woman I could really only get to a certain level. Also the pay was so low I was actually eligible for some of my own programs. So just the reality of having to live in the world and feed myself it wasn't like I was a noun or a priest so that made it a challenge. So let's talk about some of the specific programs. I like the way I saw a resume of yours or something. In the comment you said some of the programs that you particularly like are enthusiastic about and there's so many of them you get a wide choice of what you would be listing there. You already mentioned the public policy education network and I think that was with mobilizing Catholics on Long Island to be a moral voice. Now I think most people and you're always walking on tinder ground whenever you try and talk about majority attitudes and so on but I think the general idea in our population is not that Catholics are major literally interested in immigration rights or welfare reform or abolition of the death penalty. Even though I know that and I mean I knew it growing up as well. My question is how easily is that energy harnessed and is that energy disproportionate to what the public polls would indicate that Catholics were interested in? Well when at the time that I was at St. Edward it was so easy to harness that energy. People were thrilled. It was really unbelievable what happened and people were really excited and weren't aware. They called the Catholic social teachings "The Church's Best Cup Secret" and people were so excited to hear that this is what was happening because what you hear in the media really was about birth control and abortion and being gay. So this mobilized a whole different segment that were not engaged in those issues not that I'm aware of but it was very beautiful. I don't really know if the tides have changed since then but that's how it was when I was there. Is St. Edward's Confessor Roman Catholic Church in Siasat? Is that in any way different than other churches? They had a special position that they created that you occupied. Do most Catholic churches, a lot of Catholic churches, some Catholic churches do that? Well at the time when I worked there a lot of the Catholic churches I don't know the exact number but the diocese had, well Catholic Charities was on my own. The Catholic Charities was really a huge support system to all of the Catholic churches that had parish social ministers. When I started there I really had the heart and the vision but Catholic Charities really taught me the skills that I needed and got behind everything that I wanted to do and really helped people live their faith. They provided so much structure and support for the churches wanting to do social justice work. If I didn't have that start I wouldn't have been able to accomplish so much of what I've been able to accomplish. It was through them and even now I'm starting a really the most exciting work of my life is beginning now at the Reform Church of Bronx though and I went back to, there was a man named Anthony Mullen who was at Catholic Charities when I was there and even though he's not still there, he's helped me tremendously with advice and support and contacts and help in enabling me to get some of the projects done that I want to get done. So what were the skills that you picked up? How did you grow to fill this position that you have now? What kind of skills or what kind of learning did you do there? Well an example would be so people would be coming to the church in need and I would listen to their stories and you would see a pattern. So one of the things is that women would actually pull up to the food pantry in fancy car like a Mercedes or a Jaguar and over time what we were recognizing is that people were going through these terrible divorces and the attorney, they were fighting and fighting, the attorneys were getting the money, the families were getting deeper into hurt and pain and poverty. The women who had raised the children and had been full-time parents weren't able to step into a career. It was just a mess and it was all very sad. At the charities then helped get a grant that some of us were able to go to Hofstra Law School and get mediation degrees to be able to help people before it came to that. That's one example. Another example is just always using the church teachings and support. One of them was the whole physician assisted suicide thing. They helped us to get the expertise to prepare for end-of-life care, living wills and had doctors come in to help people prepare for the end of their life and making decisions and the Bishop wrote a document called comfort my people. So when you identify a problem in the community that you see happening over and over, the structure of Catholic charities was there to help find the expertise and give you what you need to mobilize and follow through to address the root causes of problems and systemic issues instead of just the one-on-one. Now your bachelor's degree, besides psychology, you had your social science degree in there as well. I don't know if that really prepares you to deal with people in need. I've certainly dealt with it. I've answered the phone for a Quaker meeting and someone will call up and they're homeless, they're hungry, they were on a trip, the car broke down, they can't get to be blunt. It's not easy to know whether someone's running a number or is using a manipulation or whether there's some special need there or in fact one of the standard concerns I think out there in the world is if I give this person money does he just go off and buy a bottle of wine kind of thing. So how did you go from the person who learned something at the university to a person who I'm sure has met spoken with many people in need or perhaps with a different need than what they're presenting to you? How did you go from just being a college person to an experienced social worker or maybe a spiritual worker as well? Well I think that when you just listen with an open heart to a person in need and then use your common sense and together with that person make a plan of action for their well-being, it doesn't take long to see what's going on. I really don't believe when people talk about like scammers and stuff like that I think that if someone is using the term "pull a number" if someone is doing that it's because something went wrong. Something went wrong, something wrong. No little kid says I'm going to grow up and be a scam artist in pull numbers. A lot of what goes on is that there's not a safety net for people that someone could be working full time or collecting public assistance but still not be able to make ends meet. So they have to learn some way to get by. That's just them surviving. I think that if people are given an opportunity to work and share their gifts and still manage I think that's the route that they'll go but people often need assistance with that. Once a woman came who was going through a divorce and she had a lot of debt but we sat down and made a plan of action and one of the things was she needed to go back to school. So we offered support for two years, she was able to use the pantry and we were able to try to help with Christmas gifts and school supplies for the kids and eventually she got her degree and then when she was done eventually she volunteered. But I think it's really about getting involved and engaged enough to sit down and make a plan of action that your situation won't always be like this. But we need to really look at why is this person not making ends meet and what can be done about it. And if that person is willing to make change then we should get behind that. I think that's far more effective than just giving things to food pantries or giving out money which actually could end up creating dependence instead of encouraging people to work to their fullest to live a dignified life and share all their gifts in the world. Then you probably are supportive of a move that happened here. I felt two ways about it. We were getting calls from people who maintained they had some need and one of them was I think a frequent alcoholic and issues. Other people I think were much less comfortable answering the phone than I was. And I think part of that is my background having been a Peace Corps volunteer in West Africa. I was used to beggars at the side of the street, people with horrible deformities, people with obvious need. But here in the US we don't like to see that. It makes us feel uncomfortable when we perceive that someone wants something from us. So anyway we'd get these calls at the Quaker meeting and people would say they'd have need. They need a room for a hotel or they need a car or a bus ticket or whatever. And other people just felt completely incapable of making a good decision to be helpful. And so what we organized was something called CareLink. And that happens in the Chippewa Valley here in Wisconsin, around Eau Claire where I live. So if someone comes to us, it's administered through Salvation Army. There's people there who have a centralized picture and an idea of resources. They get a chit from us that goes down there, which entitles them to get some resources in our name. We make contributions to help support that, but there's people there who actually know what's going on. Is that an improvement or a step downhill from contacting people directly and dealing with it one on one? It sounds like they still are contacting you directly and then you're helping them journey to the place where people will really be able to help, which is exactly what I think that we need to do. Because not everyone at the church, I've done this with volunteers too, or volunteers that train, but really they need to be loving and supportive and believe in the person in front of them and believe in their strengths, but then get them to the people with the expertise to really help. Like alcohol, that's a tricky one because unless the person wants to stop drinking, that'll be more complicated. But lots of times it's other things as well. Or if a person's not ready to get help, that's when it's tricky. And I've gone back and forth on how I've handled that. But essentially, my philosophy is just err on the side of compassion and just be loving and compassionate, but don't do anything that will cause harm. And I don't feel comfortable using church resources if I know the person isn't ready to help themselves. I mean, I would do it once, but I would have to let the person know that there's other places that they can go to if they just want charity help. But my role with limited energy and resources, I would like to direct my work toward people that are ready to make change and to help themselves and be part of the community. Well, some of the ways that you have helped with each of these churches are homeless shelters. I think you participated in the establishment of two homeless shelters. Could you describe those, what they're like, how they run? At Madison Avenue Presbyterian Church, there was a bowling alley that we eventually made into permanent space, but we started off with just in like an auditorium space, and we got cots through the city and would take 12 men and evening and just have a volunteer stay overnight with the 12 men. We did that in partnership with neighborhood coalition for shelters, so they screened the people that were coming so that it was easy for volunteers to work with these people, and they helped us get all the resources that were necessary so that it wasn't a big expense for the church. Then the second shelter that we did there was also in partnership with neighborhood coalition for shelter, and it was with professionals running it because it was people that had mental health issues and addiction issues. And so one of them is dealt with volunteers when dealing with professional staff. What do you see as the pros or cons of those two kinds of setups? I think that we really need both. I think that the work, the professionals are spread to thin, and when something goes wrong, everyone's ready to throw stones at the person who makes a mistake Social workers' caseloads are huge, and it's big problems. There's a lot of systemic issues that need to be addressed by all of us, and there's a role for all of us. I think that we're all connected and we all need each other. Volunteers, on the other hand, need a lot of support and education, and some people will have a harder time than others. The most important part is getting people in a role that's good for them. Sometimes people get into a role that's not the best place for them, and it'll be too challenging. But I believe everyone has a role, and that it's up to each of us to find that. And if it's something that's life-giving and you feel grateful to be a part of it, then you know you're in the right place. Some of my questions, I think, are coming from my personality type. I'm not going, I'm comfortable with just about anyone, any station of life. It may be the president of the U.S. or it may be some homeless person who's mentally ill on the street. I can feel comfortable in any of those situations, I think. So because of that, I tend to think it's good for me to be challenged to see people in need. If I too quickly hand it over to the professionals, I'm afraid that I won't do the inner work where I have to question myself of my own priorities and how the world is organized. Do you see dividing line in people? Some people who just, you know, they should be shielded from having to deal with the down and out. I don't think that I believe what you believe, and I think that we all benefit from those relationships. And in fact, that's what I did my doctor or research on. On the coming home prison ministry, I studied the transformation of the congregants that were mentoring or being helpful to the returning citizens and how much it changed them. And I believe that we all grow from relationship, and we realize how much we can all learn from each other and the spirit in each of us. I think that's a really important part of it. Can you name specific cases you've seen, people, stories that you've seen, going through that transformation because of the contact? So I'm going to tell you a story about Bill, who's one of the core people of our church here that helped get my position in place. And when we started the coming home prison ministry, he was the chair of the council. So he never actually mentored a person, but he would come each week, each week for 18 weeks. There were 12 men that would come for dinner, and we'd all dine together, whoever wanted to come from the church and have a little reflection, and then the congregants leave while we go on with the rest of the work for the evening. Bill would come all the time for dinner and really started having such a reaction to the people and how amazing they were, how bright, hardworking, capable, and he said to me, you know, if I grew up in their circumstances, I think I would have been in the same place. Like, he really understood that these were people just like him. Well, he might not have thought that before the program began, and he said to me, you know, if I had to be in a light bulb with 12 guys, these would be the guys I would pick because I know they would have my back. Wow, that's impressive statement, yeah. And not where most of us start from, I think our society and cultures in us are a fear of people who are down and out or who are criminals or somehow are the other. Right, so that's why I try to focus on a relationship piece, because this church here has been very generous about giving money, and I'm trying to say, wait, relationships an important piece too, and it really is helping. Another story is, for me, one of the first men that went through our program, they were all guys from Hudson length, so they were already extraordinary because they were able to get an education while they were inside singing. And to be able to do that, you really have to jump through a lot of hoops and you have to really be cream of the crop, extraordinary person of grit. One of the guys, when he came out, they all go through a goal-setting workshop and have a mentor to support them in that process, and he ended up getting accepted to a PhD program at John Jay, and he encouraged me to go for my doctorate. I wanted to do something like that, and I never had, and he was like, you could do it, Dawn, you can do it, and I ended up doing it. That's cool. Well, let's do talk about the coming home prison ministry. How did it come about? Was this your initiative? Was this someone else's initiative, and what is it? So, normally when I begin at a church, I begin by getting neighbor to help neighbor and you respond based on the needs of the community. So, you end up seeing things like, you know, we have to lobby on welfare form. We have to open a food pantry. We have to do something about health care. But Bronx, though, where I am now, is very removed from poverty. It's in Westchester. It's one square mile, and you just weren't seeing those kind of needs, but there were definitely very beautiful people that were committed to giving money, but I wanted them to enter in relationship, and I wasn't seeing how to begin just in Bronx. So, I started putting different issues out there and having speakers and films about homelessness and immigration, things that had worked on in the past. For some reason, there was an interest in prison ministry. I showed the film Hard World Home about Julio Medina and the Exodus Transitional Community, and had Auburn Seminary come in and moderate it, and people were interested, and then we just got a new senior minister, Ken Ruby, and he was interested in prison ministry. So we said, "Okay, this is where we should begin." And I took a model that I was familiar with from my work with homelessness that was started by Catholic Charities and Interfaith Assembly for Housing and Homelessness. It's called the Life Skills and Powerment Program. And I took that model and tweaked it with the help of Sean Pico from Hudson Link, and we started that program right here at the Reform Church. And so many people wanted to get involved, that we actually had to add a component just to absorb all of the volunteers. And that was when we added the meals for people to cook and dine with the participants. So that was really just an add-on, and it ended up being one of the most powerful parts of the program for people to break bread together. And over and over again in the evaluations we hear about how it really felt like home, and how I was served on China, and everybody was happy to see me. And really beautiful. One woman from the church who died last year, her name was Gay Reeps. She would show up every single week and welcome the guys and serve them tea. She would say, "Come in, put your feet up," and she would pour them tea. She came every week, and there's this woman, Sherry Sorensen, who's incredible, who oversees the meals and all the volunteers every week. She decorates it with little flowers and holiday treats. And it's just really bad aspect. Like, you are so worthy, and please be at home here has really meant a lot to people. More than I thought. If you just tuned in, I want to remind you that you're listening to Spirit in Action, which is a Northern Spirit Radio production on the web at northernspiritradio.org. That's ORG rather than COM, more organic than commercial, I think. On the website, you can find more than nine years of our programs for free listening and download. You can find links to our guest, so you'll find connections to Don Ravela and the work that she's doing and as she's sharing today. You'll also find a place to post comments, and we love two-way communication. So please, when you visit our site, please drop us a comment and let us know what you're thinking. There's also a place for donations. That's how we fund this full-time work. Click on the donate button or find the address within, but even more so than supporting Northern Spirit Radio, I'd like you to remember to support your local community radio station. Start with them. They're providing an invaluable slice of news and music that you get nowhere else on the American horizon. So please, start by supporting your local community radio station. Again, our guest is Don Ravela. She's currently working with Reformed Church of Bronxville. Her position there is Director of Mission and Outreach of the Church. She's had previous positions with Presbyterian Church and Catholic Church. She also works as a therapist, and we'll touch on that shortly. Right now, we're talking about prison ministry or exiting from prison ministry. So Don, when someone comes out of prison, are they living in halfway houses? Are they living in the community? Do you connect with them while they're still in prison? It varies. We did just begin a program to connect with people while they're still in. We do that with New York Theological Seminary. The New York Theological Seminary has their North Campus Inside Sing Sing. So there was a project there with Rei Presbyterian Church who were really helpful to me when I wanted to start the prison ministry here. And I started going in with them once a month. The people that are living inside Sing Sing lead one month, and then Rei Church leads the next month. So now recently, they were formed Church of Bronxville, and Rei Presbyterian Church have partnered, and we're beginning such a thing. So we'll go in once a month to work with the students that are working on their degrees. But the problem is when people are coming out is that there is not enough housing. There's definitely not enough available housing, supportive housing. And if you have a felony of sense on your record, you can't get into public housing. A loved one can lose their housing if they take you in. So it's really sad. There definitely needs to be a lot more done in this department. And I do believe that there is a wave of involvement and recognition right now about what an issue this is and what's going on with the criminal justice system and how the prison population has just exploded. And most of those people are going to come out, and we are not in a position to support people that are coming out. Nobody wants to hire you. You can't get housing. There's a lot of issues that we're going to need to address, and the Church is starting to talk about it, and we're starting to hear about it more than the news, so that's good news. And if people haven't heard this, the quite amazing statistic is that the USA imprisons a higher percentage of its population than any other country in the world, and that would include countries we think of as tyrannical or despotic. No other country puts people in prison and incarcerates people to the same rates that we do here in the USA, which is mind-numbing to think about that. It's really upsetting. And the prison population just exploded here over, that's kind of recently the last 30 years in response to tough on crime and drug laws that just locked people up. We're locking up on mentally ill and our people with addictions. Recently, I was at a conference for restorative justice, and there were leaders from different parts of the world, including New Zealand, and they were talking about -- leaders from these other countries were talking about how they actually changed their criminal justice system on how they treated the youth based on research that came out of the United States, that the research shows that the brain isn't even formed at a certain age, and therefore it's a human rights issue to lock these people up as adults for the rest of their lives. They changed how they incarcerate their youth. And even though the research came from us, we were just -- we were described as the bottom of the barrel. That's sad. It's very sad. A month or two ago, I interviewed Nell Bernstein, and she's author of a book called Burning Down the House, The End of Juvenile Prison, which talks about exactly that issue that you just named. So, Nell's got it from one side, and I think Dawn's got it from the other side, and there's a whole lot of other people trying to bring about what we call restorative justice. Can you make clear for our listeners what you mean by restorative justice? It's a process that looks at healing rather than just punishment. It's definitely not a soft on crime thing. It holds people accountable when there's a crime, but it takes them to account the victim of the crime and the person who committed it to find out what went wrong, what happened, what was going on, and how can we heal it, and it's a community effort. We have a congregant who is within that system in a powerful position, but still feels that his hands are tied and that he's forced to have people enter a system that really isn't helpful, and in fact, it can be harmful. He saw people that he had to send to jail, come back, just damaged, and harmed. That's just heartbreaking, and he really wants to do the right thing, and has been spearheading efforts to have people talk about alternatives to incarceration, and what else can be done to actually help people rather than send them into a system that causes more harm, breaks up family, creates trauma, so it's good that we're moving toward these discussions and looking at these things. Actually, for the state of Wisconsin, Eau Claire, where I'm located, is something of a hot head of innovation. I think we had drug courts and mental health courts before anybody else in the state, and they've copied our programs elsewhere. Of course, with changes in funding, even though this saves immense amounts of money that doesn't have to get spent on putting someone in prison where you actually get positive change in their life, still you have to have someone improve the funding for the program. For some reason, some people say, "Well, if it's for keeping a prisoner in jail, that we have to fund, but if we can, for half the price, keep them out of jail and keep them functioning in society, then we can't vote for that in the budget." There's some craziness that goes on there. That is so crazy. And so we've been talking about incarceration and people getting out, getting them into society. One of the functions that happens when people are in prison is they can't take care of their kids. They end up experiencing powerlessness, and I think some of the wounds get passed on. And in that light, I think if you could say something about the angel tree ministry, I think that'd be useful. The angel tree ministry purchases Christmas gifts on behalf of an incarcerated person. So the person who's incarcerated signs up for this program, and they're able to write a little request for what they'd like to give and a note, and then at the church, and we go out and purchase that gift and deliver it. So anything that encourages communication between the parents and the children is really beautiful, and there have been a lot more efforts toward that. One of the things that we know reduces recidivism is strengthening family relationships and providing education. Those are two things that we could do. Like right now, the majority of people in prison in New York come from the same seven zip codes that are near the city, yet all the places they're incarcerated are upstate. There's 11 counties upstate. So already the family has the trauma of what happened that caused this person to be in jail and incarcerated, and then it's really hard to visit. They have to people that are struggling, they've lost a family income, and now they're supposed to use their day off or the weekend to travel all the way upstate, which is expensive, and there's lines and visiting hours. It's really terrible. We don't set it up that it's easy to stay in touch with your family, and it's expensive to be on the phone. We really have to look at these things. I do believe it is a moment in time that people are starting to look at it, with the economic crisis, people started looking at just the economic issues around how expensive it is to incarcerate 55 to 65,000 a year per person, and it costs way less to educate, to treat. The problem is now there's 11 counties upstate New York that are supported by the prisons. That's how they make their money, and it's like this, and I'm talking about New York, but it's like this all over our country. Something needs to be done that it's moved from that prison umbrella so that there is some kind of economic development in those counties, because nobody wants counties to go under because you're closing a prison, but something really needs to be done. With this kind of program with coming home prison ministry or mainstream ministry, can you say that there's actual statistics that people get healed, that relationships get maintained, and that recidivism goes down? Do you see that in the individual case or in statistics? Well, so I don't know the statistics off the top of my head, but Osborne or somebody would with the children. But just from my personal experience, what I see is unbelievable. I mean, we're still babies in the work. We've only been doing it about five years now. We do 12 people at a time. But we're working with Fordham University right now to get statistics and get the grants, but then there's other groups like Fortune Society and Osborne that would already have stats on that. But from what we see, it's amazing. And actually, Hudson Link, for higher education, there's a film that was just made about them now. We're having a whole film series on this fall for all of these things that are happening, but they have had zero percent recidivism since they've been around. Yeah, these things work. I just don't know the stats off the top of my head. Zero percent recidivism is a pretty good statistic. That's way awesome. Well, there are also a lot. Hudson Link is a really supportive community. Sean Pika is the executive director. He worked with me on the coming home. They're really extraordinary, and it's a lot more than education. It's community. The same with New York Theological. I do feel so hopeful when I see the amazing people on the inside and outside that really are committed to this and care about each other and see the potential of each person in spite of difficult circumstances. So you say, Don, that you don't have the exact statistics on that, but I think that you've seen some things structurally that need to change in the system to get away from this whole prison industrialization of our society. Is there a way, is there actual change in that coming? I believe that there absolutely can be changed. One of the things that our congregation is doing that I'm really excited about is that we decided to address one of these neighborhoods that are called the Cradle to Prison Pipeline. And Columbia had done a study that showed these pockets of poverty that are revolving door of social services that are just a black hole and that neighborhoods remain unsafe and lacking opportunity. Two of those zip codes happened to touch the Bronx or zip code. So our congregation decided to focus our efforts into one area of Yonkers, the No Dine Hill section of Yonkers, and to actually try to work with residents there and the institutions there to see what could be done if we collectively bring all of our resources together. Can there be a way to make change an opportunity? We call it opening doors Yonkers. We just completed our first pilot series called LEAP, which is Leadership Empowerment Action Program. And we worked with 12 residents from that neighborhood that were committed to making change. And they went through a program very similar to our coming home program, but with leadership skills added to the program mix. And then we also just received a grant to get funding. And we have a community organizer that we think will be beginning in October, which will be under the direction of West Chester United and IAF affiliate. So I'm really excited about that pilot and think that things can't -- there are things that work and there are things that can be done. People just have to care and put the resources into them. And thankfully you're doing that. A big part of your work is setting up programs and making sure that there's volunteers for them. Glenn told me you were the special person you are, but I think I see now why you can work with the volunteers. Some people get burned out trying to staff so many programs. And you've got hundreds of volunteers that one way or another you're organizing. Do your gifts in terms of working with people come naturally, or is again, is that a skill that you picked up along the way? I think that I generally like people and am very grateful when people are willing to reach out and help and try to live their faith and care about each other. People get really enthusiastic, but then the temptation becomes to get enthusiastic about how many volunteers or how many programs, when that's not really what it's about. It's about the impact and really elevating the potential and the existence of people in need rather than just serving more. This brings us back to a very important question. I started out talking. You're working in religious and spiritual context. So what is the spiritual part of this work? What is spirituality in this context? Because if it's not just numbers, which is of course what scientists are based all our decisions upon, and I am a scientist as well as a religious person, what is it that is spiritually important in this work? Well, for me, it's about the sacred dignity of every single individual and creation and our relationship to each other and the duty to make your gifts manifest in this world and how everyone benefits from that and how we can all support and help each other do that on this journey. And we're all connected. We're all one in the Spirit. I think that's a song I sang growing up in my Catholic church. We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord. And we pray that all unity may one day be restored. Beautiful. Did you grow up singing that song? Will you serenade me now? No, I did not. No. Aaron, I think that that's the message that has seeped into me. I believe that the Christian message often gets distorted in a way that I don't even think Jesus would be happy with. It is about the love and compassion and inclusivity of everyone and that we are all one. One last thing before I let you go, Don, when I was interviewing your husband, Glenn Routhall, we are noticing all of these parallels in our lives and in our wives. And you and I have some personality traits, maybe more so than his personality traits matching my wife, there's this great mishmash. If we were sitting in the same room, we'd have the same traits and interests in one of the other people and the other couples. And so one of the things is that you also do psychotherapy. And it looks to me like you do psychotherapy in some way parallels the kind that my wife likes to do. Could you talk a little bit about your psychotherapy and why do you do it? You don't have enough work with all this other stuff you're doing? Actually, I haven't been practicing for quite a while because of the amount of work that I'm doing here, but it's still really useful. And I am running the groups for the programs that are in development. So there is a lot of trauma and healing work. So it comes in very useful that I have those skills. I tried to not just follow the model of looking at diagnoses and pathology, but instead look at the strengths of the person and the whole person. So without a doubt, meditation, aromatherapy, guided imagery, all of those are part of it. I think a really beautiful and important part of it. And stuff that you don't have time enough to do because you're doing so much other work. I'm so lucky because the senior minister here, Ken Wookie, has a regular meditation practice and is, I believe, just a giant. I couldn't dream of a better person to work for. And the pastoral staff here are all very committed in their faith and also encourage taking some self-care time and time for your own spiritual growth and staff of time. I'm not good at it. I can't lie about that. But I'm trying to work on it and to be in a supportive community that tells you how important that is. It helps. And I could see the difference in how I handle people or before I meet with someone in need. If I take a few minutes to meditate and pray before I meet them and try to be grounded in a source of strength and love myself and then picture the gifts of that person, it makes a huge difference. Such wonderful work you're doing on so many fronts, Don. We've been speaking today for Spirit in Action with Don Rivella amongst other things. Right now, she's the Director of Mission and Outreach of the Reformed Church of Bronxville. Before that, she was at Madison Avenue Presbyterian Church in New York, Director of Outreach Ministries. And before that, she was the Director of Para Social Ministry for St. Edward, the Confessor Roman Catholic Church. Also, as you just heard, she does psychotherapy. There are so many programs that you've innovated, that are being replicated, that are spreading in healing of the world. I am so impressed with the way that your simple gifts are seeding the world, the mustard seeds that we talked about earlier, Don. I'm just so thankful that you're doing that work and that you've joined me here today for Spirit in Action. Thank you so much. I'm very grateful that you're doing your work and that you took the time to chat with me. There's a song that I used to use as the Spirit in Action theme song that seems especially appropriate for the work that Don Rivella does. So I'm going to finish this edition of Spirit in Action with a Carol Johnson song. I have no hands but yours. And we'll see you next week for Spirit in Action. Here's Carol Johnson. I have no hands but yours to tend my sheep. No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep. I have no arms but yours with which to hold. The ones grown weary from the struggle and weak from growing old. I have no voice but yours with which to see. To let my children know that I am up and up is everything. I have no way to feed the hungry souls. No clothes to give and give, the ragged and the morn. So be my heart, my hand, my tongue. Through you I will be done. Fingers have I none to help, I'm done. The tangled knots and twisted chains that strangle fearful minds. I have no one but you to clean the mess. When glory redistro the land that I've so richly immersed. I have no legs but yours with which to dust. No way to show my faith on this unless your deeper chance. I have no way to open people's eyes. Except that you will show them how to trust the inner mind. So be my heart, my hand, my tongue. Through you I will be done. I have no higher call for you than this. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy in selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy in selflessness. The theme music for this program is Turning of the World, performed by Sarah Thompson. This spirit in action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio. You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website, NorthernSpiritRadio.org. Thank you for listening. I am your host, Mark Helpsmeet, and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. And our lives will feel the echo of our healing. You