Spirit in Action

Alternatives to Violence, in US Prisons, Nigeria, & Nepal

Mary Amel is a facilitator for the Alternatives to Violence Project (AVP) through FNVW/AVP Minnesota. AVP happens in 6 prisons in Minnesota and a few dozen states around the USA, and widely internationally.

Duration:: 55m
Broadcast on:: 11 May 2014
Audio Format:: other

[music] ♪ Let us sing this song for the healing of the world ♪ ♪ That we may hear as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred food in your own life. ♪ Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world ♪ ♪ That we may dream as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ Today, for Spirit in Action, we have a guest who has been investing heavily for a better world. Much of that with her work now spent sharing the alternatives to violence project. That's AVP, workshops mostly in prisons. With a well-documented track record of transforming participants in prison and out, AVP packs a wallop, making the world safer, and the lives of all involved better. Mary Amel has volunteered for years in the prisons in Minnesota, but she's also done AVP work in Guatemala, Nigeria, and this past December in Nepal. Mary Amel joins us by phone from the Twin Cities of Minnesota. Mary, I'm so pleased you could join me today for Spirit in Action. Well, thanks, Mark. I'm really glad to be here. Are you a big world traveler in general? I mean, I know that you just came back from Mexico. I know that in December, you were doing this alternative to violence program training stuff. In Nepal, I know you've been to Guatemala and Nigeria. Is this travel that happens because you're retired from other jobs, or is it because you're just a globetrotter? No, I'm not a globetrotter. I've been to Europe before, but it is AVP that motivates all this traveling, and that I'm not working anymore. It's been an amazing experience. I never would have expected this. It's really been, I don't even know, blessing, magic, miraculous, many positive, and a couple negative responses. We'll use the letters over and over again, AVP, Alternatives of Violence Program. Could you give us the thumbnail sketch of what AVP is? Yeah, it's called Alternatives to Violence Project, and it was begun at Greenhaven, New York, when a group of inmates there called, made contact with a local Quaker group, and asked them to come in and help them put something together, because they were so concerned about the young guys who were coming in, and basically, they said they're serving a lifetime sentence in little chunks at a time, like in for six months, and for eight, and that conversation and that relationship evolved into what is now called Alternatives to Violence Project. And so, what specifically were they called in to do? They're supposed to meet with these, just reduce recidivism or what? Well, apparently these were older guys who had been in prison for a long time, seeing a lot of it. These guys wanted to see if there was any possible way of them, I think, initially, even having the discussion of what are ways around that, or what are ways to respond. So, they really contacted the Quaker group to have conversations with them about non-violence, and sort of learn what that was about, because none of them had that in their background. And so, where did it go from there? What happened? This is just one person in New York. What's happened in the ensuing years? How long ago was that? 1973, and at that time, there were a lot of things going on about conflict resolution and conflict resolution for children. And so, this workshop, these workshops, were kind of cobbled together from other sources. The difference was that it is primarily what we call experiential. It's interactive. The facilitators do not lead. We ask questions that everybody answers, including facilitators. They act like participants unless they're doing the presentation. We, as I said, operate in large groups, small groups, and one-on-one. It's a real thing about listening to other people, and it's just a remarkable experience. There's three workshops. It's a three-day workshop. So, once a month, we have a basic, the next month, and advanced, and the next month, the trainings for facilitators. So, the guys are able, after that, after going through the trainings for facilitators, they can become apprentice facilitators. And then, we team build early Friday afternoon, and then they're part of the facilitation team on Friday night. So, this started back in 1973. So, 41 years have gone by. How widespread is it now? And is this just Quakers? You said it was started by a Quaker group. Yes. It was initially started by Quakers, and it eventually, and I don't know the timing on this, but it moved away from exclusively being tied to the Quaker organization. What happened is the original guys were requested by other Quaker groups to come and teach. Here in Minnesota, they came, I think, in 1994, and Nancy Helferich at the time, locally, were trained in this, and they really put this together in Minnesota. It's now in about 31 states. It goes off and on because it's all volunteer. Everybody volunteers. Yeah, they started here in 1994, and now, as I said, 31 states, approximately 54 international countries are involved. Is it a religious thing? I'm pretending to be a little bit innocent. I'm not because I've actually taken the basic. So, I do know something about it, but from your point of view, as a non Quaker, does it seem to you to have religious overtones? Not at all. That's the point, I guess. We welcome everybody. It's spiritual. It's certainly spiritual. It's not religious. I think that's part of the magic of AVP. I did a workshop in Nigeria with Christian and Muslims, and they had never met together this group. Generally, although each group was involved in peacemaking in their own community, but Magi Petrix, who's involved over there, had managed to contact some folks in the different peace groups, and we went up to Joss, Nigeria, which is in northern parts where a lot of the stuff was going on, and it was magical what happened in that workshop with Christians and Muslims. So, there is no, in fact, the more diverse we get at the better we like it. In prisons, there are many, many, many hierarchies. There's certainly the ethnic hierarchy, and then there's the what your crime was. There's just levels all over of who you don't talk to, who you are actually aggressive towards, who are the untouchables, and what happened, and it usually happens sometime on Saturday, but they will start talking about, I would never have spoken to this person, and I have just told them something significant about my life. So, we're not religious. I have to say that when we're in the workshops with participant folks, they can say whatever they want about their religious. Once, and this isn't all across the board for facilitators, but several of the people I know do this, that when we ask them not to go on, you can say my religion is valuable to me. It gives me support. I really count on that for the focus of my life, but you don't go on and on about what that means. Including not proselytizing. Yes, yes, which is hard, because many, particularly in the prisons, many of those guys find God. They are very religious, and the proselytizing can get out of hand. So, that's something we have to, we don't scold about it, we just keep giving feedback saying, we need to hold back on our personal views about this. Are there particular criteria or pluses for who should be participants in this? No, probably one of the biggest things about ADP is that it's voluntary for facilitators and for participants. So, they want to have to come, and they may not know why, and they may not be happy about being there, but something has had them, well, it's referred to in prison as fly a kite. It's a request. This kite is a request. It is sent to, in my case, I do most of my work at Airbulb, and it's sent to the volunteer coordinator there, and then she makes up a list of the guys, but they have to want to come in there freely and at any time. And it's non-directive, it sounds like. Right, right. So, does this make a difference? Does this end up changing people? Have you seen the concrete changes? Oh, Lord. Yes, yeah, quite remarkable. It's probably, well, I recognize the other day, that experience of ADP is kind of my higher power, as the word is used. It is the quality of finding each other's souls, and that sounds so strange for something that happens in prisons, or in the poll it was community workshops, but even there, the formation of community, the willingness to expose some of the things you're really struggling with, with people you don't know. So, it absolutely is one of the big words we use is transforming, and it's hard to describe that, but the change is, I'm not saying this happens in three days, and the rest of their lives they're not going to have a problem. That's not true. But what happens is they go back to the units, and they come back for the advance, and they'll say, you know, there was another fight-over cards, and these guys are really going to go at it. And I usually will just back up from that, and this time I said, really, do you guys want to fight over this? Because you're both going to end up in SEG, which is basically isolation. If it's worth it, I guess you can do it. But maybe there's another way. Now we've doubled the size of the groups we had in the prison, and the guys will come in and say, well, my roommate, or my cellmate, or a guy on my unit, has really changed. There's something real different about him, and I asked him what it was, and he said, well, he's been going to AVP, and I asked what that was. He said, well, I can't really explain it to you. He just has to go, which is true. So they come of their own volition. What other kind of feedback or change do you get from inmates when they're participating in the program? I think one of my most surprising and most gratifying was a young man who had come, and we were in the advance. He had had, because we talked about what we were going to do in the morning, and he had lunch, and he had dinner, and then sometimes we do a show at the end. Everybody volunteers, not everybody. Some people volunteer to sing or to read or whatever we have, and he got up to give a poem, and he had about two hours to write this that was outside of AVP time. So I'll tell you that M-C-F-R-B is a Minnesota corrections facility, cerebral, so that's part of this. And the name of the poem is AVP. Ever since I come to M-C-F-F-R-B, left myself and saw the elective sign-up sheet, and saw my friend Scotty and asked, where are you going? And he said, AVP. What's that? He said, alternatives to violence. I said, that's not me. He said, give it a chance, and maybe you'll see. I think if it can help him, maybe it can help me, so I come down and check it out to see what it's all about. Even though my heart was full of doubt, one of the things I learned is respect is not given. It's earned, because I want my kids to see their dad being the best he can be, and not let violence keep me silent. Open my mind and take the time, a place where everyone is kind, a place for you and me, where you won't be judged on what you did, or you can be creative and express your feelings, and get feedback on what it all means, where you are not looked at as a coward for being able to transform your power, or you can be patient and persistent before you judge, learn to listen. And last but not least, focus on the power of peace. Chris. Powerful statement there. Isn't it? Yeah. And this is again one of the quiet guys. I assume there must be statistics about recidivism or other measures, I mean concrete measures. I mean, it's one thing to say, they seem like different people, and those stories are powerful when I hear them, but overall there must be statistics too. Do you know any of them? You know, again, that's something it's the politics and statistics. I think a lot of the people who are in as facilitators really want to facilitate, and I'm not a very concrete sequential person. I do know that there is all kinds of work being done on documenting this, particularly on the East Coast. John Schuford, who is a facilitator, he has been building significant cases for the changes. It lowers recidivism, and they're trying now to put together those kinds of things in a more patterned way. It's really just been happening out of the roots of people, Quaker and lots of non Quakers, like myself, who just keep going in and noticing the change. And there are people who are trying to get the hard data on this. Can you tell me some more examples, stuff that you've encountered, people who've changed, something that you've seen? Okay, this one was a real amazing thing. I was at Fairbold, it was a basic, and one of our first activities, which I happened to lead that night, was it's called concentric circles, and basically we're in a big circle, everybody numbers off one, two, one, two, the two pick up their shares, move into the circle, turn in, face the one, and then the facilitator asks a question. They each have two minutes to answer, and then we ask them to shake hands, and please stand up and move one chair to your right, or one chair to your left. So it's a new partner and a new question. The questions start out kind of easy, there are a couple little more personal, and then an easier one at the end. One of the questions on this one was, what do you think might hold you back from participating this weekend? What's something that you're carrying that may tie you up or inside? And there were three American Indian fellows who were sitting together most of the time during the entire workshop, but they kind of split up and were different partners. And at the end, this one of them, a very large guy, leaned forward, and said, "If I had known what this was about, I never would have come here." And my heart starts going... He says, "This is not what I expected, and I wouldn't be here if I'd known this is what you were looking to do." And he just sat there looking at everybody, and then he said, "I have just told somebody that I don't know something deeply significant about my life, and we did it in prison." And then he repeated that in a bigger voice, and he kept saying, "We did this in prison." Oh, I still get... It just was transcending. It changed the whole group on Friday night, and usually that doesn't happen until sometime on Saturday when they... There's more community building stuff, and they're feeling somewhat more safe. This guy did it within an hour and a half at the workshop starting. It's one of the most powerful things I've ever seen. The entire surrounding shift. It's a miracle. And that's one of the keys to this. It's hard to explain why is this different. You have games that you throw in, little light and lively. You're talking about serious topic, and then you throw in a light and lively, and people get a little bit goofy and play, which I suppose... Maybe there's a little shortage of that in prison. You know, there's a little shortage of that in our lives. I think that we as a culture don't play as adults. We kind of grow out of it. It's certainly absent in prison, and that, again, is something. You watch these guys who are all dressed in sagging. You know, that's where sagging came from. I had no idea. You know, they wear pants without belts in prison, so their pants start to slip down after they've worn them for a long time. And the kids on the street, particularly in the African American community, started sagging as a tribute to how tough they were. So anyway, these guys are sitting and they're huge, and they're similarly dressed, and they're significantly united on, we're gonna what? They don't like it. And then they can't wait. Then they know what it is after. We put an agenda on the board, and they know when the next light and lively is coming in. It's really watching them turn into five-year-olds, and them watching each other turn into five-year-olds. That's equally. I'm glad you brought that up. That's equally a powerful experience. So do you get only the easy cases in this? It is a voluntary thing. So the hardcore people who say, "I'm not gonna put up with that crap," they're not gonna go to this thing. Do you only get the ones who are ready to be changed? Yeah, on some level, because they have to decided that they know it's some kind of risk. They don't know what the risk is for sure, but they know it's some kind of risk. But we can't interact with these guys in any way after the workshop or before the workshop. We're not allowed to write letters or visit or any of that. But I consider myself quite lucky to have friends who are in the upper echelon of some of the worst gangs in Minnesota. And they come from all over the country, but the guys I'm thinking of, there are four or five that I've met who were way up. And we're operating the same way in prison. You will not believe. I did not believe that there were really the gangs we're operating in prison. And that's how naive I was. This one in particular talked to me about, "Oh yeah, people have come over to me and asked me if so-and-so had done such and such and beat him up." And they would. He said, "I have knocked out teeth. I have this, I have that, I have the other." Yeah, it's scary. We get scary, scary guys. And we get some real meek guys. We get everybody from, like I said, the guys who are heads to guys who are loners, to guys who are pedophiles, to guys who are sexual molesters. Those two categories for me were the hardest. I had the most difficult time. And sometimes it's still hard. But what happens, I think, over the course, certainly of one workshop, absolutely in three, they shift somehow. Not, again, to say that when they get up and leave, there is a quality of them putting on the face again. You can watch many of them transition back into who they think they need to be within the prison. But they talk a lot about, they came back because this is the only place I know where we can just talk about who we are and what's really going on inside us. And it's so hard out there. We are speaking with Mary Amel. She is a AVP alternative to violence program trainer in Twin Cities of Minnesota. She did a recent trip to Nepal. She spent other countries as well. Guatemala and Nigeria, we're going to talk about that very soon. But first, I'm flushing out what AVP alternative violence program is. You were just saying, Mary, that you as a woman going into prison. Now, I've been into prison myself. I've done prison visitation. I've never been an inmate, but I've gone through the barbed wire fences and all the security and all of the guards standing around and the doors clanking behind you. It's intimidating. I'm kind of surprised you were drawn there. Weren't you afraid that you were going to get raped, beaten, abused? And what do you do about security? How does that work out? Well, this is funny because you asked why I was drawn there. I wasn't. At the time, I've been inside for five years. And when I went, I had been in a class with a woman who was an AVP volunteer. I didn't know that, but it was at a time in my life when I was really struggling with depression and anxiety. A lot had happened in the previous five years. I've struggled with depression most of my life. I was in a real hard place at that time, and I was forcing myself to do things. I was forcing myself to eat the house. And I went to a class and I'd sit outside in the car and not want to go in and make myself go in. One of the women there who was just this sparkling little, "Ah, she's amazing." She came over and she plopped down next to me and she said, "Oh, Mary, you're such a, you're such a funny, outgoing person." And literally, my head snapped toward her and I'm not funny. I'm outgoing. I'm growing. And I said, "Actually, an expletive deleted." And said, "What the heck? What are you talking about?" And she said, "Oh, and I've got something I think you'd be interested in, and do you want to go to coffee?" And I said, "I meant no, but I said yes." And so I went, we went out and had some lunch and she was talking about this and she, "Well, I'd done conflict resolution years ago when my boys were a little to school that they went to. I got involved in this and I used to do conflict resolution." And she said, "See, I knew you." I said, "No, no, no. Conflict resolution with second graders is not the same as walking into a prison." She said, "It is. It is. In some way it is." And I said, "No, it's not. There are not very many murderers in second grade. There, you know, there aren't any drunk drivers in second grade. There aren't any guys who've really messed up." And she said, "Well, that's who they really are. I just couldn't believe it. I wasn't going to do this." She said, "Well, just come to the basic." And I did. It was one of the things I got, "Okay, this is showing up. I'm going to force myself to do this." And we went to the women's workhouse in Hamilton County. And that was just about the worst weekend I've had. On Sunday when we're done and we're walking out, we get in the thing. I said, "Okay, I'm all done. No, this is nuts. I'm not doing this. There's been a lot of violence. The women were very angry and justifiably so. I know now, but at the time it was overwhelming." And I said, "I'm all done. I'm not going to do this." And they both said both of these women said, "Oh, Mary, you just have to come to the men's prison. Oh, they're just pussycats. You just won't believe it." And I just spun around. I said, "Are you kidding me? Those are the johns and the uncles and the brothers and everybody who screwed these women's lives up. How are they little bunnies in prison? They're in prison. Oh, but you just won't believe it. It's just this." And I thought, "Oh, my God. They're nuts." And Lee came over and she says, "Come on, Mary. Just finish out." So I had personally decided I would go for the three basic advanced and training for facilitators. So I went, "This is the fear part. I got there and it was a beautiful sunshiney day in April. We pulled up in front of the, forget the name of the building that where we go in. There's razor wire everywhere." And the sun was dancing off of the sky. I thought, "Well, this looks like a burning. Why am I sick to my stomach?" Oh, it was the flip of that. This shiny -- it looked like somebody was -- really, it looked like a celebration. The sun dancing off of all of that sharp, clean razor wire. And we went in and I wasn't terrified. There were guards. We get escorted everywhere. There are guards in the areas where we present. We're in separate wounds, but they're guards all around. And yeah, I was really -- I wondered what exactly I had done to get myself in this place. And when I got into the room with the guys, I was scared. They all had on their mean boy faces and their slumped sideways. And they're looking around like, "What the hell is going on here?" And my heart started pounding. The facilitators don't fit next to each other. We spread ourselves out. And I was a participant, so I was sort of alone in this. I didn't know what was going to happen either. So I -- there was a lot of social community. You idiot. And one of the guys on the opposite side of the room came over and said, "Hi, I'm Tom." And he extended his hand. And he said, "Thank you. Thank you so much for coming. I'm sure my jaw dropped and it made all a difference in the world." Because I could -- I had somebody besides Lee to look at. And he had not and smile. And I cried, honestly, Mark. I think the first year I was in, I went on to complete and I became a parent and facilitator. And that meant I was active in all of the questions unless I was presenting. And I just wept. So much had shifted in my life. And I just didn't know where to go with it. And these guys held me up for two years. They just different guys. You know, every three months, a different set of guys. If I broke down, they listened with their hearts. And then they'd share something. When I would say I'm struggling with depression, their jaw would drop. And then, you know, one-on-one, they'd say, you know, I struggle with depression, too, and I don't talk about it. And this is the first time I've told anybody. Only my counselor knows. I said, "Well, I'm honored that you shared with me because I know how scary it is. And I know how much you don't want to talk about it. One doesn't want to talk about it." So these guys are stunning, actually. And I went from being afraid to anticipate going. Can't wait to see who's next. Can't wait to see who's going to be one of the inside facilitators. And in working with teams, I end up working with people in ADT, other facilitators that I don't feel comfortable with. I mean, their style is not my style. And, of course, my style is the right style. And some of the facilitators are more challenging than others, but basically it's the miracle. Yeah, so the fear left. All of this raises a lot more questions for me, but first I want to let our listeners know that they're tuned in to Spirit in Action, which is a Northern Spirit radio production on the web at northernspiritradio.org. On that site, you'll find eight and a half, coming close to nine years of programs for your free listening and download. Also, while you're there, you'll find links to groups like AVP that Mary Amill is connected with. You'll find further information about them. You can post comments, and we love two-way communication. I'm happy to sit back and listen to you. If only you'll come and post a comment. Also, there's a place to leave donations, and we live by your donations. That is our sustenance. And so please help us keep these programs going by donating at nordenspiritradio.org. And even more than donating to Northern Spirit radio, I'd like you to consider supporting your local community radio station. They provide a slice of information, of news, of music that you get just nowhere else in this country. So start off by supporting them. They really deserve your hands and your wallets in helping that news go out. Again, we're speaking with Mary Amill. She's a facilitator for what's called AVP Alternative Violence Program. Back in December, she was in Nepal when I asked her about that shortly. She just got back from Mexico. I think she wasn't doing AVP there, but she's also done AVP in Guatemala and Nigeria. So Mary, you were just talking about your own experience. Having had depression, a very key part of what I do in these spirit and action programs is to find out what motivates and sustains a person to do healing work for the world because I want the world to be healed. And so AVP is part of that, but it sounds like you've got a lot of healing out of it. How is your depression fared in the face of all of this work in these depressing environments like prisons? Oh, that's a good question. Like I said, they held me up and this was in place where nothing in my previous lives had indicated there would be anybody who could hold me up. I mean, it wasn't how I was raised and it wasn't what I believed. So to go in and find these guys who are really absolutely in prison and have them open up and support me was transforming for me and this whole experience of AVP is I've for years been in counseling and I had found a new therapist who's been particularly helpful and I have a relationship with another woman therapist that she just carried me through. I'm on meds and have recently started a new med that seems to work. I think the frustration with depression is that it's sort of becoming, you go through the smorgasport, it's literally and try things that don't work, try things that make you sick, try things that this go without a shame because you're taking meds. I had a serious disease, but somehow taking them for a mental disease is revolting and you certainly don't want to talk about that. It does sound like AVP has in some ways made your depression less, it has reduced its impact on your life. Yeah, I think that's true. Not to say I wasn't depressed while I was going through it, it took me a while to feel like I had my legs just in my life anyway, but having the chance to talk with these guys and them saying things like, gosh, I never knew a white woman on the outside would feel this bad. He said, I thought you made cookies for your neighbors and came down here through your job and one of the other guys said, are you crazy? They don't get paid to volunteers. This guy looked at me and said, you're volunteering? I said, yeah, this is worth volunteering for, just being able to talk with you. Are you kidding me? Yeah, I said, well, I don't think this is news to you, but they're cells on the outside. Many, many, many people live in cells on the outside. He just looked at me and used an expletive and said, I never thought of that. He said, well, think of it because there it is. Yeah, so they really, that your question was the depression and they answered that. I mean, a part of it certainly has been a major part of what's going on in my life. I have a couple other questions about your background. What's your religious spiritual background up to the present? I was raised in the Catholic Church and when I was about 18, I walked away from that emotionally, not physically. I was going to a Catholic girls college, but it had become punishing in a way that I just didn't want to deal with anymore. And then it floated around, never joined another community particularly, but I have always known that soul connection is critical. I think Buddhism in many ways has the kind of thoughtfulness. I have a friend who's a Buddhist and he said, Mary, you need to be mindful. And I said, give me a break. I am mindful except mine has two Ls and that last L is just hell to get rid of. I am full of mine. I just can't reduce it down to one L yet. So I think mindfulness, it's a chatter word now, I guess. It's everywhere, but the idea of it has value to me. I'm not a regular meditator and I realized that one day, not long ago actually, probably in November at one of the workshops, in prison during the workshop, I thought, oh my Lord, this is my higher power. This place is where I connect most deeply with what's really going on in my life and someone else is doing the same with me. Several others are doing the same with me. And that's I think what life is about. And I'm glad you've gotten the gift. Let's talk a little bit about why you're visiting these AVP programs in far-flung places. Guatemala is one of them. You've been to Nigeria. I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Togo, just two countries to the west of Nigeria. Haven't actually made it into Nigeria myself. And in December, you were off to Nepal. Now, one of my options when I went in the Peace Corps, they gave me about seven different programs I could go in. And one of them was in Nepal. And I turned it down for several reasons. What led you to Nepal? And why is AVP operating in Nepal? Isn't that their Buddhist country, I believe, and aren't Buddhists all peaceable and they don't have any of these problems that we Catholics? They never have. No, they don't have problems. Really, it's why I went. Okay, good. No, they've had wars and they've had, yeah, it's an amazing thing. Subas, the young man who is in charge of AVP in Nepal, is a stunning person, just amazing. In 2008, he was in Geneva. He was sitting on the steps of a church and he was eating his bag lunch and there was a woman sitting there, also when they got into a conversation. And Peace has been a big thing for him. His father was murdered during one of the wars, tortured, and he as the oldest son had to go get the body. And then he was in charge of having to support his mother and his four siblings. All but one of the siblings has finished college and his life has become AVP. In this conversation, he was talking about how troubled he is about all the interactions that are going on. She said, "Well, I'm an AVP in Australia." So the conversation kept going and she offered to put up a team and commune and do a workshop. And she did. In 2008, they had the first workshop in Kathmandu. Then they went back and they graduated several, maybe 30 people. Many of them were college students who then left the area for jobs or whatever. So there's a group of maybe about 14 left and of that, they're about maybe six to eight people. All of them, they're young. They're young. They're between, I would say, late 20s to mid-30s. And our group here in AVP are almost all the dandelion generation. We're all gray haired. And it's very tough to get younger folks involved because it takes so much time. But over there, they had a six-day work week, Saturday is their day off. So everybody who came to our workshop had to take two days off and lost either the money or the time at school. Subas has held on to this and is literally the one-man guy over there. From my point of view, he is saddled with or has saddled himself with too much of the responsibility because he's doing everything as a volunteer. And even here in Minnesota, we are under the umbrella of Friends for Nonviolent World. And they keep us alive financially. It's very hard to raise money for alternatives to violence in prisons. So FNVW has made a big difference in our lives and keeps us going. Not every AVP organization is affiliated. So FNVW is terrific and not everybody affiliates themselves with the organization in other states. So he has held on all these years. And the beginning in November, once you're an AVP facilitator, you can sign on to an AVP link that's any facilitator who's volunteered nationally and information is exchanged. And then there's an international link. So in November, this thing came over that said, we're going to be going to Nepal. The dates have changed to under a lot of time pressure, meaning facilitators are you interested? And I answered, yeah. And about a week later, John Michaelis, who is originally Brit and has lived in the States and that was in Australia, he's very active in the international community. He called and said, you have a really good reputation. And I started to whom have you fucked? But he said, yeah, if you want to do this, you're on. And that's how I got there. What were you doing? This wasn't prison visitation, was it? No, no. These were all folks that Subas said rounded up. He goes to the NGOs, the NGI's. I'm not sure what that one stands for. He goes to schools beyond high school. He does everything he can to generate enough people for a workshop. And while we were there, we did five workshops. But if you're not trying to help people in prison, who are you trying to help? What's the purpose of the workshop? Basically, oh, that's such a great question because it isn't about, it's interesting. Everybody thinks it's sort of a one, two, three about how to stop violence. What the experience is in an ADT workshop, I think it is finding the violence in yourself. And while we talk about it, and generally what's initially volunteered, is physical violence, we begin to talk about what is emotional violence. How are you violent to the people in your lives, and they don't even know it? Or they know it, but they can't put words on it. Or they know it that you haven't set it out loud. Where in your life do you need to reflect on how you interact? So it has a real big place in the community. It has a huge place. So when we went there, he had put together these groups. It was going to be translated. Many, many of the participants speak English and understand English, and several of them don't want to speak English because they don't think they're good enough. So it ended up, I think initially, that we'd have one English group and one translation group, but it turned out that both were translation groups. So it was just remarkable. These young people came in, and many of them were social workers, and were involved in cross-children organizations and abused women. It's still a very patriarchal society, and they were looking for things they could use with their clients. So it takes a while to make the shift to, oh gosh, this is about me. It was remarkable to see that transition that they recognize, oh my lord, I have these patterns, and it isn't about helping somebody else change or trying to give the one, two, three to somebody else. It's about finding out what I need to do. Finding what the seeds of violence and dysfunction are in our own lives. Find a place of transforming power to make a difference. Yes, exactly. So what do you think are the seeds that you planted? How does this change Nepal? How does this change Guatemala? How does this change Nigeria? How does it change Minnesota that AVP is happening there? What's the difference in the world? This has been going on for 41 years, and we haven't seen the entire world turn to peace yet. No, and honestly, I don't know that we will as much as I would wish that could happen. What has it done? It's been very, you use the word seed. It's just a seed, and seeds can die, seeds can dry out, seeds can flourish. We don't have a large presence in the world, it's very difficult to get contributions. Prison doesn't seem, it's getting to be more of an issue now, but it's still a side issue. Over there, it, I'll tell you another story about over there. We had started the first day. It was supposed to start at nine, and by 1015 everybody was there. So we had to have a conversation about, can you commit to being here by nine? We did. We went until one had lunch, and after that, this young woman showed up. It turned out she was 18. I didn't know it at the time, but she was told by her counselor to come in to get into this group, and she hadn't been able to get the buses to get in. So there was a conversation about whether or not she should be in the lettering, that there was a way to sit in for the community. So she came in and sat down, and we did a light and lively, I think. And then we got to the, what do you think will hold you back? Is there something that will hold you back from participating? And about six or eight people had shared an in translation. They might talk for three minutes, and the translator might say, "She takes flowers on the way to work." You go, "What?" Well, that's basically what she was talking about. For three minutes, that's what she was in. And it gets around to her, and her eyes start to water, and she drops her head, and she says, in Nepali, she says, whatever she says, and all of a sudden, the entire group goes, "And we don't know what that's for." Margie, this amazing woman from New Mexico, who was on the team, running over and put her arms around her, and then several of the women, and she broke down sobbing. So we stopped the workshop, let everybody take a 15-minute break. Some of the women there, who were counselors, gathered around her, they talked, we came back. It turned out that she had been violently raped three weeks previous, and her father had tried to bring her into the city. They lived about 30 miles out, but he was losing all his work time. So she was now staying in the city with her uncle, and she was in a program that was about 10 hours a day. She got therapy, and there were groups of things to do, but she was still so powerfully controlled by that memory. And I think she's the bravest in person I've met. Her sharing that did the same thing that the American Indian fellow did. It shifted the entire workshop. Everybody went deeper, and she personally made that happen. Her willingness to share something really so private, and shaming, and out of her control, she said it. And the men, the young men in that group, were inters. So it has a profound effect, and that group at the end, these young girls, had come in. She was sort of casually dressed, but a lot of these girls were dressed really well, and their hair was done up. They weren't makeup. They looked sort of together. You could put them here, and you would not know. They just looked like an average young adult. And at the end of this, two, a person, men and women, they felt that they were isolated from their peers, and that there was a lot that they didn't ever talk about, having to do with their personal lives, and that this was the first time they'd had a community where they could actually share the things they were afraid of. So that's the impact I think it has. That's the impact it had in Nigeria, and that's the impact it had in Nepal. Again, it's just a miracle to be a part of. And it's a miracle that you choose to do it right through your depression. It's amazing how any of us who finds the courage to step forward, risk ourselves, be vulnerable ourselves, what a transforming effect that has on the world. I thank you for going to Nepal, for going to Nigeria, but even more so, staying home in Minnesota and doing your work. Well, thank you so much, Mark. This has been a real treat. I'm really pleased, especially because you have a heartfelt connection to AVP, and there's a camaraderie in understanding what that is, and being a part of it is healing, I think. Thank you so much, Mary, for joining me for Spirit in Action. We've been speaking with Mary Amel of AVP. Alternative Violence Program, she's connected with the AVP organization under the care of F and VW. Friends for a non-violent world in the Twin Cities, Minnesota, you can find links at northernspiritradio.org to several AVP organizations, like to avpusa.net, avpinternational.org. And there are many other sites by state, by nation, there's Britain, Australia, Canada, Kenya, New York, Massachusetts, and many, many more. They're all over the place, doing great work, and there's likely one near you. So if you're interested, check them out and see if that might be your way of transforming the world. As we end today's Spirit in Action program, I want to leave you with a song about folks headed to jail because of the good they've done, as happens with the outside facilitators for AVP. But in this case, we're talking about those behind bars, like Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and Martin Luther King, Jr., and maybe you, for working for justice. The songs by that wonderful rabble-rouser and endless activist Ann Feeney, have you been to jail for justice. We'll see you next week for Spirit in Action. Was it Caesar Chavez? Maybe it was Dorothy Day. Some will say Dr. King or Gandhi, set them on their way. No matter who your mentors are, it's pretty plain to see. If you've been to jail for justice, you're in good company. Have you been to jail for justice? I want to shake your hand, sitting in and lying down always to take a stand. Have you sung a song of freedom or march that picket line? Have you been to jail for justice? Oh, you're a friend of mine. You love biting citizens. Listen to this song. Laws were made by people and people can be wrong. Once unions were against the law, but slavery was fine. Women were denied the vote and children worked the mine. The more you study history, the less you can deny it. A rotten law stays on the books till folks with guts defy it. Have you been to jail for justice? I want to shake your hand, sitting in and lying down always to take a stand. Have you sung a song for freedom or march that picket line? Have you been to jail for justice? Oh, you're a friend of mine. Now the law's supposed to serve us and so are the police. When that system fails, it's up to us to speak our peace. It takes eternal vigilance for justice to prevail. So get courage from your convictions. Let them haul you off to jail. Have you been to jail for justice? I want to shake your hand, sitting in and lying down always to take a stand. Have you sung a song for freedom or march that picket line? Have you been to jail for justice? Will you go to jail for justice? Have you been to jail for justice? Oh, you're a friend of mine. The theme music for this program is Turning of the World, performed by Sarah Thompson. This spirit in action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio. You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website, northernspiritradio.org. Thank you for listening. I am your host, Mark Helpsmeet, and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world alone. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world alone, and our lives will feel the echo of our healing.