Spirit in Action

The Pacifica Path

Ursula Ruedenberg became Affiliate Network Manager of Pacifica at a critical time, when we were on the edge of loosing Pacifica's voice and witness. Though we're not out of the woods yet, Ursula has followed this path and done this work in faithfulness to the great tradition of peace, truth, and community which is central to Pacifica, and she is a sign of hope and inspiration for the power and future of community radio.

Duration:: 55m
Broadcast on:: 04 May 2014
Audio Format:: other

[music] ♪ Let us sing this song for the healing of the world ♪ ♪ That we may hear as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world alone ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred food in your own life. ♪ Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world ♪ ♪ That we may dream as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world alone ♪ For those of you who were with us last week for Spirit in Action, you'll already know that I was halfway through my visit with Ursula Rudenburg when we had to sign off. So we have the pleasure of continuing our exploration of her involvement and work with Pacifica Network today. And that is, by the way, the website where you want to go in order to learn more about Pacifica. It's pacificanetwork.org and Ursula is Pacifica's affiliate network manager. Working to nurture and connect the almost 200 Pacifica affiliated community radio stations. Last week, we learned a lot about community radio's birth and Pacifica's role in that history. And I wanted to share with you one of John McCutchen's songs on something so close to the mission of Pacifica. Pacifica was created to be a source of both truth and peace. And in the run-up to the wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq, truth and peace both suffered seriously on mainline radio stations. At one point, in an effort to make sure nothing would extinguish the smoldering flames of antagonism and fuel for war, clear channel communications issued a list of songs that should not be played on its radio stations all over the country. Peace songs and the like. So, before we go back to talking to Ursula Rudenburg, I'll let John McCutchen remind us of the kind of pro-war and censorship tendencies of so much radio that has made Pacifica and community radio invaluable as an antidote. This is The List by John McCutchen. ♪ ♪ Clear channeled communication, send a memo to their stations asking DJs to take care with songs they play upon the air. ♪ ♪ Might upset, might defy, that just might stem the growing tide to send this country in a war. ♪ ♪ I guess that's what the media is for. ♪ ♪ Protect the listeners of this nation, clear channel of communication, send it out. ♪ ♪ Songs we should think twice about. ♪ ♪ 160 songs were sold to knock here on your radio. ♪ ♪ Metallica, the clash and queen. ♪ ♪ AC/DC, Bruce Springsteen, Van Halen, Kansas, Jackson Brown. ♪ ♪ Dave Matthews, Pink Floyd, Three Dords, down a huge and most impressive list. ♪ ♪ But as I read, I said, what's this? ♪ ♪ Louis Armstrong's on there too. ♪ ♪ Neil Diamond, him I always knew. ♪ ♪ Elvis Peter Paul and Mary. ♪ ♪ He was always scared. ♪ ♪ Imagine, he's trained, get together, he ain't heavy. ♪ ♪ He's my brother and as I read this lit me. ♪ ♪ One awful thought came clear to me. ♪ ♪ I didn't make this list, though I've worked my whole life long. ♪ ♪ 25 recordings, they can't find one lousy song. ♪ ♪ It's a slap in the face, it's an awful disgrace. ♪ ♪ What do I have to do to make the great and not get played? ♪ ♪ Like Sonatra and you too. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Imagine there's no airplane. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ It's easy if you defy. ♪ ♪ How many songs must a folk singer write? ♪ ♪ Before they're forever band? ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ I've always disagreed with folks who've said this world is saved by songs. ♪ ♪ One thing I've learned from all of this is I guess I must be wrong. ♪ ♪ Some people think it's dangerous. ♪ ♪ These things we sing and write. ♪ ♪ The pet is mightier than the sword I'm feeling mine tonight. ♪ ♪ No I didn't make the list, though I'm really not surprised. ♪ ♪ I guess that means I can resist. ♪ ♪ When they silence all these other guys, ♪ ♪ I'm taking it well, I'm still giving them hell. ♪ ♪ It's the only sane solution. ♪ ♪ So here's a song and sing along. ♪ ♪ Join the revolution. ♪ ♪ Come on people now. ♪ ♪ Smile on your brother. ♪ ♪ Everybody get together. ♪ ♪ Try to love one another right now. ♪ ♪ Come on people now. ♪ ♪ Smile on your brother. ♪ ♪ Everybody get together. ♪ ♪ Try to love one another right now. ♪ ♪ Right now. ♪ ♪ Right now. ♪ The list by John McCutchen about the kind of censorship and pro-war antics you don't get from Pacifica. So let's pick up our talk with Ursula Redenburg right at a crisis point for Ursula trying to find her calling and work, but especially for Pacifica and its near-death experience. Here's Ursula continuing with her story. So that made a huge impression on me. I was like, "Well, okay, that's the answer to my question about community." And I had no idea how to get involved, but then there was this ritual that had happened where I had put out that there was warrior energy. What happened was that right at the time when I was volunteering at Pacifica, there was a hostile takeover of the network, which is a very big historic event that doesn't get talked about a whole lot. It was talked about a lot at the time when it happened, but it is faded quickly into oblivion. But there was actually an attempt to destroy Pacifica network. The management of the stations in all of the other areas of the country except for Berkeley. In other words, Houston, Washington, D.C., and L.A., the managers of those stations had been fired. They had been replaced by other managers who were following the bidding of a board of directors that had become essentially a renegade boarder to become a board. There was self-selecting, and it actually even came out through some weird coincidences that there was an effort to sell this New York station and this station in Berkeley. What, for all intents and purposes, appeared to be a hostile takeover of the organization through its board of directors and possibly the demise of the network. And New York was, in a sense, the last station where this struggle was coming to land, and it came to land a month after I got involved. By the time I got involved with the station, I was in what you might call a war zone. So I went to this demonstration and was completely attracted to these people. I asked somebody the demonstration how I could get more involved. I went to another meeting that I was spent to. That seemed even more chaotic and confusing. And then at that meeting, I asked another person and they said, "Why don't you go to a station board meeting?" I went to that. The same thing was continuing. I felt completely part of this, but completely had no idea how to get involved. And so at that point, I saw that the program director Bernard White at WBI made a presentation to the station board and said that Amy Goodman's democracy now was under duress. And then he left. He finished his report and he left and I followed him down the hall and I said, "Bernard, I'm my name is Ursula. And how can I get involved? How can I help Amy?" So he took me down to her office, introduced me to her and asked if I could help her. She was actually, I didn't know it at the time, but she was forbidden from allowing any volunteers to work with her. So she said, "Thank you, Bernard, thank you." And then Bernard said to me, "Well, why don't you stick around anyway at the station and let's see what happens?" And what he did was made me into the witness. And in the next few weeks, as I was there, I witnessed the takeover of the station. Upper management coming from outside of New York, announcing that there was going to be a change of leadership. Essentially, the lead up to what became what's known now as the Christmas cool of 2000, where two days before Christmas, the civic management arrived in the middle of the night. And WBI changed all the locks and fired the management and installed a new manager who essentially was doing their bidding. Because I had been kind of brought in by Bernard as the witness, I saw all of this. I was one of the few listeners, in other words, objective parties who saw the whole thing go down and made me a very valuable person. I was even there the night that they locked down the stations and was able to videotape the station at that night and what happened. What happened to me was that I had just always been admirer of Pacifica since the 1970s. It never in my wildest dreams occurred to me that I would be personally involved. I was looking for community. I discovered these people. I put out the intention that I wanted, you know, a righteous fight. And before I knew it, I was in the middle of a national political struggle of enormous proportions. And because I played the role as a witness, I had something to offer. I also, because of my work with the mural painting and other aspects of things that I'd done in the past, I had experience with organization buildings and with community organizing. And so I had considerable skills to offer, although at the time I didn't perceive that, but in hindsight, I see that that's what happened. Overnight, we had a movement. It was the most unusual experience. I will never experience anything like this again. Overnight, hundreds of thousands of people in New York came together, all completely certain that this had to be stopped, that losing WBAI was unacceptable. And we were like an army who had known each other for years, and it just had never seen each other. I don't know if that's because we all listened to the same radio station, and so we were kind of tuned into the same mindset, but it was a very strange thing. You know, it's just, who knows why these things happen. I always had this fantasy that we were like Joan of Arc's army who were reconstituting himself. It was just very odd that the sense of connection was immediate, and we immediately became an army, so to speak. And because I was the witness who had seen these things, I mean, obviously people didn't understand from listening to radio what was happening because the radio immediately became censored. So myself, Amy, Bernard White, the program director, and a number of other people at the station and other various people who began to gravitate toward this. We began to travel all around the metropolitan area and put on informational events where we explained to people what was happening because people had no idea, people were frantic. There was this sense of tremendous alarm, and it's really interesting because I think today, in today's world, it would be different. But we were talking to standing room-only rooms all over the tri-state area. The sense of intensity and fear and alarm and urgency that just had to be stopped was just as something that I'll never see again, I think, in my life. So we had a movement overnight. We were doing a lot of protesting and kind of getting nowhere, and then we put together the Pacifica Campaign, which was a team of people who were essentially a direct action strategy team, and we kind of were kind of like the Marines. We kind of did the dirty work. It was a switch from speaking truth to power to fighting power with power, and we began to develop very concrete strategies on how to defeat, how to take the initiative away from this board and regain the initiative. The person who really offered the strategy for that, he was a good man's co-host and he announced on democracy now that he was resigning and was going to form this group called the Pacifica Campaign, and based on that announcement, we've got a considerable amount of money and support all over the country. And then there were about five or six of us who made up this team, we were given a small stipend, and then we basically carried out a campaign to regain the network, and we succeeded at that. It was a smart campaign, it was politically informed, and for me it was like a graduate school class in political science. I mean, I was amazed at what I learned. The interesting part of it, kind of coming back to me, I was this person who was essentially preparing to leave New York, I had no work, I was just kind of doing this as a volunteer. I felt a sense of urgency to go to Iowa for a while to help my mom and dad. But one of the things we did before the station was taken over was that we had decided we needed to install a hotline in case something did happen, because we kind of anticipated there was going to be a takeover. We didn't expect it to come as quickly and as brutally as it did, that we saw trouble coming. And so we said, well, let's set up a hotline. First we were going to set it up at station, and then we thought, well, maybe we shouldn't do that. End of the long story, the hotline kind of ended up being my phone in Brooklyn. When the takeover happened, there was just like nonstop phone calls to respond to, and they were coming in from all over the world. It just never stopped, the phone started at seven in the morning, and it went on until midnight, and I was sitting there, turning into the person who was kind of connecting everybody. And I kept saying to myself, well, okay, we're going to put an end to this, and we're going to go to Iowa now, because this isn't financially feasible to be doing this. You can't just sit here and not work, and answer phone calls. And so every day I would think this, and then the day arrived, you know, maybe a week into this where I suddenly realized, you know, this is what I had asked for. This is what the universe had responded and given me what I had asked for, and I wasn't going anywhere, and the smartest thing to do would just be to trust it. And even though I had no idea where this was headed, how I was going to live, that the best thing to do was to trust, because it was like suddenly surfing in enormous ways that had incredible energy in it. And so shortly after that, Juan started the Pacifica campaign, I started getting a stipend, and I essentially was homeless for a year and a half, where I just slept on people's couches. And I felt incredibly guilty about not going to take care of my sixth mother. It really tore me up that I was in a sense turning my back on my parents or my mother, but I had this really deep sense that my life had just started. I had just come out of a very difficult phase of my life that is also an interesting story here, truly, but is a whole other story that might be classified as the dark night of the soul. And I desperately needed to reconnect with life and to feel connected to other people, and I realized that had suddenly happened, and that I could not leave now. My life was calling me, and in hindsight, it's a really interesting thing, because my mom and dad did not have an easy marriage, and in some ways had a lot of trouble finding each other, because my mom was in many ways, you know, she was very close to her kids, and she and I were very, very good friends, and I had a really spectacular mother. But anyway, it turned out that my father, because I wasn't there, ended up being my mom's caretaker, and those were about four or five years that were absolutely crucial to their marriage, to my father, and probably to my mother, too. And if I had been there, that wouldn't have happened. The truth is he wanted to take care of her. And so looking back in hindsight, I see that what happened was absolutely correct, that the universe had just intervened and set things in order. You know, those two people were doing what they needed to do when I was doing what I needed to do, but it sure didn't feel like it at the time. All I knew was that I just physically couldn't leave this situation. Mentally, I couldn't either, so I did it, but I always felt terrible. So sometimes, you know, doing the right thing doesn't feel right at the time. But anyway, so that's what happened. I asked for community, I asked for a righteous struggle, and that's what I got. The universe absolutely responded within a few days to the point where I felt like I was a kid who had gone down in a basement with their chemistry set and just like blew the whole damn house up and didn't even know what happened. I didn't even recognize myself, because I went from being a very isolated kind of person who kind of didn't know where she was headed to being a pivotal figure in a national movement. Having so much to offer to so many people to build this movement that it just like stunned me and surrounded constantly by people that absolutely felt like the right people for me to be with, who I completely understood, who I adored. And it wasn't just a group of people in New York, they were all over the country. This seems like a good opportunity to express in music the kind of search and willingness to find her voice that Ursula Rundenburg had to go through in her work with Pacifica radio. Each story in this song, like Ursula's, is different, and there are three of them in this song by Sally Barris. She was on my Song of the Soul program almost three years ago, and this is one of her songs that stayed with me, Sally Barris sings "Little Voice". Clarice was so shy, she dreamed of the stage of her life. Then one day in acting class, she lost her nerve when somebody laughed. How many dreams do you think there are hiding away in somebody's heart? How many storms are waiting to shine? I just won't be denied. Oh, I'm gonna shout to lag it home from all the rooftops on this world. Although I'm gonna make a great big noise with my little ones. Moses saw a bush in flames, then he heard it. Call his name, Moses I may need you to speak from the top of our mountain bay. Moses cried, are you crazy? He might as well ask me to part the sea. I'm shy after no one other man to take a man. But I'm gonna shout to lag it home from all the rooftops on this world. Although I'm gonna make a great big noise with my little ones. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. For young dads who played in bars, dreamed that they'd be a rock and roll stars, record labels in their town, heard their songs and turned them down. John said, Paul, we can't give in. We just need a little help from our friends, and we won't get no one then, unless we imagine. So I'm gonna shout to lag it home from all the rooftops on this world. Although I'm gonna make a great big noise with my little ones. Oh, I'm gonna make a great big noise with my little ones. A little voice by Sally Barris, a little extra about finding your voice. Added into our interview with Ursula Rudenburg for today's spirit and action. Ursula found her voice, she found her vocation, and it's made a tremendous difference to her and to Pacifica radio. We continue with Ursula's saga. So I found my community and I found that it was so much bigger and better than I ever could have figured out on my own. And it really was a huge lesson in letting the universe take care of things for you, just like just ask for it and really want it. And what is arranged is so much bigger than you can imagine. I never could have put this together in my head. It never occurred to me in a million years that I would work at Pacifica. And so I was actually the person who facilitated the resignation of the first board member in this struggle. It was a very amazing experience, actually kind of a fascinating humorous story about how it happened. So I was surrounded by people who knew how to win. It looked like a situation of powerlessness. I was surrounded by people who knew how to turn that around and that was amazing. And I learned from them and I learned I could do it too. So anyway, I was here in Iowa temporarily visiting my folks. I remember I was setting the dining room table and I was asking myself, so when we get the network back, because it was never, if we're going to get the network back, it was kind of like it had to happen. So when we get the network back, who's going to run it? That's what I was asking myself. That's when I realized, oh, it's going to be us. Who else is going to run it, you know? So that's when I realized that I was more involved. I was no longer a listener. I was more than that. And so in 2003, there was a settlement where we got the frequencies back. We gained control over the organization. We did win this fight. For a while, I was not that involved. I was physically very ill. I mean, there was an enormous price page for not having a home, not having money, and just kind of running all over the country doing what I was doing for two years. And it also became very, very stressful at the end. 9/11 happened. So I was kind of out of it for a while. And then in late 2002, I was asked by a bunch of people in the organization to begin figuring out what had happened with the Pacific affiliates. Really, when we got the network back, we legally got back the title to the stations and the legal ownership, but the whole organization had been destroyed. It was $4 million worth of debt and essentially a bunch of trashed up facilities and a whole lot of people who are very angry at each other and afraid of each other. In a sense, we had to start over. We're building the organization, and I think the jury is still out as to whether we'll succeed or not. It's been very, very difficult to do that. So one of the things that people didn't know was what happened with the affiliates. And so I was hired as a consultant to contact all these people. It used to be affiliates and find out what was going on. And it was difficult to do because people were very wary. They didn't want to talk to Pacifica. There was a lot of fear and distress and anger. But eventually I managed to get a pretty good analysis of what had happened. I wrote an executive summary explaining the situation and that was very, very well received by everybody. There was a sense that this was an accurate description of what happened. And it led to my being hired as the affiliates coordinator. And then I worked very closely with a bunch of affiliates to design a program based on feedback from affiliates. And because it was designed with such amount of listening and feedback based, it has been very successful because we got the buy-in from the people who would serve. And that buy-in has really served me in the long run and has held us through incredible difficulties. The relationships within the Pacifica affiliate network are really, really stellar. It's a rapport based network. People are unbelievably forgiving and flexible and generous with me as the affiliates coordinator. And there is a true culture of cooperation, which just never ceases to amaze me. You know, it really is a show that if you listen to people and you build an organization based on what they ask for, you really get buy-in and you get support on a level that's really quite something. You know, at the end of the day, I was looking for community. And I had no clue what that really meant to me. What I found was a community that was so much larger than I had imagined, so much better and so much more fun. And then, you know, a few years ago, I was paid, you know, all these people around the country donated money to send me to the international community radio conference in Buenos Aires. And there I met the rest of the world. And then I realized, my God, this is a global community because I was hanging out with this guy from Egypt and Palestine who do community radio. And I was thinking to myself, I normally would not have a whole lot in common with these guys, but we absolutely understand each other. And why is that? It's because we do community radio. And we totally understand each other immediately. So that's when I realized, this is an international community. And it's just like a totally awesome community. You know, these are the people that are on the forefront of democracy. And, you know, like, I was talking to this guy from Egypt and he was telling me about what they were doing. And I was thinking to myself, you know, like, they don't have the option. They don't have democracy in Egypt. Like, why do they even bother, you know? And then, like, a few months later, you know, the aircraft. And I'm thinking to myself, I know who's doing that. And it's crazy. You know, like, when I was in Argentina, I met this guy from Tunisia. He was just like this really depressed character. And nobody wanted to talk to him because they thought he might be a spy or whatever. And I went over my interview and I was like, I was curious, what is he doing? And he said, you know, like, I've been coming to every single of these conferences for years. I have to, like, do it, fake papers. I have to go to all these other countries because it's all illegal for me to come here. We have absolutely no freedom of the press. We have nothing in Tunisia. But we want community radio. And so I keep coming. And I thought to myself, what is this guy doing? You know, like, what is the point? And the other day on Iowa Public Radio, I heard a report about a community radio station in Tunisia. I know who's doing that. All the seeds that we plant and where they grow. Wow. Yeah. So, you know, this is a very cool bunch. This is an amazingly dynamic and fascinating community of people. And they all feel like friends. And these friends, Ursula Rennberg, are friends to us here on Spirit and Action, a Northern Spirit radio production on the web at northernspiritradio.org. With close to nine years of our Spirit and Action and Song of the Soul programs for free listening and download or connect up to our RSS feed or subscribe to it through iTunes. Plus, when you visit, please post a comment and make our communications two ways. There's also a place to donate and your support makes all the difference. And it's also crucial that you support your local community radio station with your hands and wallet. Your hearing through Ursula's experience with Pacifica about the difference that can make. Community radio is an invaluable resource, a window into truth and peace and all kinds of music that will lose if we don't all chip in. So, reach out and show your support today. Ursula Rennberg has been doing her part and I want to inspire you to raise your voice by sharing a song by Greg Artsner of Magpie. Yes, he's been on my show so you can listen on northernspiritradio.org, but also listen in right now as Greg and Terry of Magpie call us as does Pacifica to raise your voice. Please your voice, open your heart, we must all do our part, we must all do our part, stop the war, stop the war, or is terror, we all must, we all must. Stand for freedom that is just, stand for freedom that is just, stop the war, stop the war, only love can drive out hate. To this our lives we consecrate as the sun brings a new day, only life can drive dark away. The time is now, the time is now, it is today, we can't lift the other way, we can't lift the other way, stop the war, stop the war, stop the war, for our children, we must teach, we must teach, we live in pieces in our reach. Stop the war, stop the war, only love can drive out hate. To this our lives we consecrate as the sun brings a new day, only life can drive dark away. For the earth, for the earth is in our hands, with peace and justice we must stand. Stop the war, stop the war, stop the war, stop the war, it is our hope, it is our hope, it is our right, it is our right, we must be peace within our side, we must keep peace within our side, stop the war, only love can drive out hate. To this our lives we consecrate as the sun brings a new day, only life can drive dark away. Raise your voice, open your heart, we must all do our part, we must all do our part, stop the war, stop the war, stop the war, stand for peace, stand for peace. Raise your voice by magpie, now back to Ursula Roddenberg who, happily for us, found her voice through Pacific radio, Ursula continues. So, you know, I asked for community, I got it, and I'll tell you, because of the way this happened, because we've all started with, you know, a ritual in Rick Gerald's class, I have never lost the sense that this is a spirit-based activity. You know, the rapidity with which events happen to me, once I put out that intention, was just beyond any human comprehension. It was as if things were being lined up in the most astonishing ways. I was humbled as the only, I was more than humbled, I was just astonished at how things can be arranged, you know, when you want them to be arranged for you, how the universe will respond to that and give you more than you ever could have asked for. And so, I've never lost that sense with my work. I've always felt that what happened was that I put out the intention to fight for something, and there was an important tradition in this country that needed to be fought for, and I was enlisted. I felt that what I do, I feel, that what I do is serve a tradition, and I believe that traditions do have energy in them. That's why they're treasured, because it constitutes the efforts and the visions of what people before you have laid down, and you are picking up that vision and you're expanding that vision. And it's that momentum that a tradition has that is such a powerful, amazing thing, and I saw that play out with Pacifica, so I never in my work forget that I work for the tradition. I mean, everybody knows, Pacifica is having a lot of conflict right now, has had a lot of conflict forever, and people ask me all the time, "How can you be happy in your job with all these problems?" Or, "How can you deal with all this turnover?" Because I've had eight bosses in eight years or nine years or something. It's because I work for the tradition. My boss is whoever or whatever that was that's kept us up for me, which was not in the human realm. This was in the realm of the energy of the universe. That's what I work for. I work for that tradition, and that is an incredibly beautiful thing to work for, and I think because I see it that way, I have a wonderful time. Sometimes I feel like I'm like that the person walking the belly of the desk, because I'm having a wonderful time. I do nothing but connect with the community of people that I love. So my work is not just working for a community. It's literally building the world that I want to live in. When there are hard times, I don't go to people in the organization and say, "What should we do now?" I talk to the universe, and I say, "What's next?" And it's always something good. It's always something better than I could have imagined. I don't think I'm alone in saying that I talk to Lou Hill a lot. I actually, and somebody who believes that it's not that hard to talk to the dead, and I think the dead do care about what they did in life. So I feel that I have an ongoing conversation with Lou Hill. I don't think I'm the only one that feels that. I think a number of people feel that we do that. And I don't think it's really particularly weird thing to do. I don't know if he's really answering me or not. Obviously, no way of knowing that. But I feel like the conversations I have with him are good. I remember one time when I was living in New York, things were pretty bleak at work. We were pretty, my coworkers and I were pretty worried. I sat on the front step and I just said, "Lou, what do I do now? What happens now?" And this mockingbird lands on top of my building and just starts singing its head off, which is, as you know, if you've heard a mockingbird, it's a wonderful sound. And I was just like, "Wow, there it is. You know, there's Lou." And that bird stayed on our building for the all summer long. It stayed there all summer and every night it would start singing at around 11 o'clock at night, and then my partner and I, Pete, we'd look at each other and we'd say, "There's Lou Hill, you know?" And I just feel like that bird just came and like helped me out, just like cheered me up for a summer when it was hard. So it's spiritual work. I feel the work of Pacifica is spiritual in that it's honoring a tradition and expanding a tradition, which every day does incredible good in so many ways that we don't even write down. You know, so many miracles happen through community radio. And I feel that community radio kind of saved me. I was disconnected from the world, and community radio reconnected me to the world, and I see it doing it for other people, and that's sacred work. That's building life, and that's what I think this tradition really is at heart. So, you know, I have a great time working in community radio. I know that a lot of people are fighting with each other in community radio and it's Pacifica, but I do know by now very firmly that it really doesn't matter what people are doing around you, if you see what you want to see, and if you really focus on that, it'll happen. It'll just happen, you know. It doesn't matter what other people are doing. You can really teach yourself to focus on what you love and give that energy, and it's amazing how much of that will come to life in the worst of circumstances. I guess that's kind of like the lotus concept, right, coming up through the mud. So, it doesn't bother me that much. I sincerely hope that Pacifica survives. We fought very, very hard for it, and in the process of fighting for it, we all became incredibly educated. It's very hard to rebuild an organization and destabilize it after a fight like that, but I hope it will survive. You know, I love doing this work, and I'm grateful that it has provided the tradition and the resources in the community that allows me to move in this world. I think you grew up Jewish, right? No, actually, I grew up half Jewish, and I wasn't told that I was half Jewish. I was raised as a Presbyterian, and my father is a Holocaust survivor, and we weren't told that he was Jewish. So, I think that in a way, you know, well, obviously being Jewish had a huge effect on me, but I wasn't way Jewish. I was raised as a Presbyterian. I guess it was some of your comments about Saigon that made me aware of your Jewish connection, if not upbringing, but I am trying to hone in here on your religious or spiritual beliefs. To some degree, at least, it seems to me that Pacifica became a guiding light for you, kind of your spiritual community. You know what it is, Mark? I think there was a period of time when I felt that Pacifica served as a higher power because it really did kind of serve to bring me out of a deep depression. And the day arrived, where I realized that that was a mistake, to see Pacifica as my higher power because it's not. You know, one's higher power is one's higher power. There's no, it's not an organization. It's none of those things. It's something you have inside of yourself, and you don't assign that to something outside of you. The way that I would say it is, yes, the higher power is wherever that is. As soon as we try and nail it in place with a book, a person, a creed, or anything, we're going to fail because the higher power transcends any of that. It transcends it, yes. But what I would say is something like Pacifica, or Quakers, or whatever, or a labor union. That is the church in which we reach for that higher power. That's not true for me. Well, that's because there's a definition of church, which says church is a community of people with a common faith. I know what you're saying, but I still say it's not, you know, I came to a point in my life where I think Pacifica and community radio is my community. That's what it is. It's my connection to the earth. But it's not what you're saying. They came when that had to stop because it just wasn't all that. It couldn't offer that. It offered community. That's what it offered. Other than that, to get to ascribe the more importance to it, I think it just doesn't work for me. The day really came where I had to say, you know, I need to look for my connection to life beyond this organization, I need to really find it elsewhere. You know, it needs to be more general than that. And that was a very distinct process I had to go through because for a while, you know, I really felt that Pacifica was the full extent of my reality. And the day came when I realized that was a mistake, that I was limiting myself and I was frightening myself with that limitation. And that you're investing too much in it. You're giving it too much power. Yeah, you don't ascribe that to any other people. That's something that belongs to much larger forces. You know, it's possible that Pacifica won't survive. It's possible. And I can't go around feeling that, you know, my higher power is there because it's not, you know. It's an organization. It's a tradition. And it's a beautiful thing. But sometimes traditions come to an end. That's a fact. Sure. The thing that I would say is, you never heard me say that Pacifica was the higher power. I don't think that way. That the higher power totally transcends. And anytime we latch on to Pacifica is the higher power, then we're screwing ourselves up. And, you know, if it dies or if it's got feet of clay or whatever, then we get dragged down by it. We feel desperation and despair. If we identify the higher power there, now, you know, God is dead. So I didn't say that when I say that it's church. A community with a shared vision, faith, is what I would say Pacifica or labor union is or any number of places. And some of them officially call themselves religions and some don't. And that doesn't matter to me. Functionally, I think they end up working the same if they form a strong place of working together that we call community that has this thing. We're all attracted to this burning vision. And I realized that that doesn't match with the way a lot of people use those words. But the thing is, and this is thing that really pisses me off, we've given the power of spirit to fundamentalists by letting them say that what is a church religion, higher power, you know, we give too much of that to folks and we take it away from ourselves. And we've also taken away from ourselves the power of community because so many of us on the liberal end of things, we keep one foot in, one foot out. We don't get each other's back. And so someone else falls and they say, well, that's not my problem. But you know, Mark, this is actually a very interesting conversation. I won't keep you all much longer. But what's interesting about what you're saying and what I was saying is that it's something I've kind of learned recently about myself. I was raised in Europe. My parents were Europeans. And so a good deal of my childhood was based in Switzerland. What's interesting about what you're saying, and I think why we're disagreeing, is something I figured out recently, is a fundamental difference in Europe between the Europe and the United States in what church means. What I'm saying is that the concept that church is community is more of an American concept. And the church that I grew up in in Switzerland, which was like the Reformation Church, I guess, church is not where you go for community. Community is more widespread than that in Switzerland because you're not living in such a heterogeneous culture. So the church is really just is a building for the sacred, for sacred connection. It's not where you go for community. It's not a community organization. So when you, and that's what just kind of struck me in what you said, because when I think a church, I don't think community. If you asked me what is my church today, I would say nature. It's the planet. It's the parts of the planet that are natural. That's the closest thing I would think of as church because it's the easiest place to connect with the sacred, although, you know, cathedral is a great tool. Sometimes they inspire some awe, yeah. And so, like, I don't connect church with community. And so I think it's kind of a cultural thing. So when you say church, you're thinking community, and I'm thinking, yes, Pacifica is definitely community for me. It is my community, but I don't think of community as the sacred space. I don't connect the two. When I think of a sacred space, I think of the planet. I think of the forest where the planet is displayed in its raw form. So it's just an interesting observation. Well, you know, part of, even though I grew up Catholic, more of my life has been lived as a Quaker than as a Catholic. And in the very words that we use as Quaker, church is the body of people, not a building. And we refer to the buildings where we gather as meeting houses, and you can meet absolutely anywhere. So some of my best meeting for worship have been in the jungle, actually in Togo. So, I mean, obviously, I'm looking at it from a different place on the continuum. And if you asked a Buddhist what they thought about all these things, I mean, Eurocentric, I realize hierarchical church and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, countries being ruled by the church, that gives a total different reflection of what a church or religion might be. So, I mean, I understand all those things. I just don't allow them to define my reality. But the day did arrive when I realized I had to look elsewhere. That Pacifica couldn't, wasn't enough for me because there was too much human weakness. And I needed to find a bigger paradigm for being in the world and living a good life. That it really, it became destructive for me to feel that Pacifica was what could provide that or community radio. It's just people, you know, it's just people making a lot of mistakes, a lot of times. Have you heard me say that my favorite statement from a theologian is from that great Jewish theologian, Lenny Bruce, we're all the same schmuck? No. Now that's true wisdom. So, you know, I moved on to other to find my spiritual basis. Where have you moved on to? I love Abraham Hicks. When I came across them, I was like, okay, that's the explanation that's going to work for me. I found it completely fascinating and has consistently been just an incredible source of information. It's a lot of fun if you ever want to check it out. There's tons of Abraham hooks, six on YouTube. It's like this group of entities who want to explain to humans what the hell's going on. And they have a message. I mean, they have a reason for this. I just think it's the greatest stuff. I just love it. I mean, I don't know if one day I'll get tired of it, but I've just found that the explanation they've offered for what's happening and how to proceed is just amazing. It's just, and it's proved to be incredible for me. You found out what you're attracting? Yeah. They came up with a law of attraction concept. And, you know, this whole thing with Pacifica was long before I even came across Abraham Hicks, but it's like a perfect example of that. I was so singly focused on what I wanted, the pace in which the universe produced it for me was just knocked me off my feet. I couldn't believe it. I had no idea what had just happened to me. So anyway, that's what these days what I'm into. And I don't think I totally felt until I started listening to them that this sense of God or source or higher power is not something at all outside of myself. But it really is just me that belongs to who I am. And that was a different level of connection than I've had before. And I find that it really works for me. It's some awesome work that you're doing. And I'm so thankful for the work of Pacifica and your work, spreading peace and spreading insight, spreading connection, building community. Those are all sacred exploits. And I'm just so thankful that Pacifica has been doing that since 1949, that you and your role for more than 10 years. Yeah, Mark, I want to say something about that because some people that are very familiar with the organization may think that that sounds like spin on my part because it's pretty public knowledge by now that Pacifica is having a lot of internal fighting going on. And it's not being in a very peaceful fashion right now. And I'm aware of that and it's human weakness at work. However, I have to say that what I'm saying I do mean because even despite all that, because of the momentum of this tradition and the level of resources and connection that it has already created on a daily basis, amazing things happen because of Pacifica. They just do. And it doesn't matter that people are fighting, it doesn't change the fact that just miracles happen every day because of the level of communication that's been built up by this movement. So I'm not putting on rose colored glasses. I understand there's a lot of problems. But I also just having, you know, from telling my story, you can see I personally experience the power of what this is. It's just an incredible, sincerely incredible honor to give back to an organization that in some ways kind of saved me. And it's an honor to have you here today. Go forth and do more great work. I am very optimistic about the future with you as one of the hands that's helped guiding this to a better future. Thank you so much for that work and thank you for joining me today for spirit and action. Absolutely. And it's a pleasure working with you, Mark too, because you're part of this. You're one of these people, you know, you've come to us and you're contributing your wonderful shows and I thank you for that too. Thanks Ursula. Again, that was Ursula Rudenburg, affiliate network manager for Pacifica radio. Go to pacificanetwork.org. We'll see you next week for spirit and action. The theme music for this program is Turning of the World, performed by Sarah Thompson. This spirit and action program is an effort of Northern spirit radio. You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website, northernspiritradio.org. Thank you for listening. I am your host, Mark Helpsmeet, and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is spirit and action. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. And our lives will feel the echo of our healing. [MUSIC PLAYING]