Spirit in Action
Singing & Biking Afghan Vet Jacob George
Jacob George, a 3-tour Afghan vet, has just released Soldier's Heart, part of his recovery from the Moral Injury of war. Self-described as "a peace seekin, bicyclin, ramblin hobo from the hills of Arkansas", Jacob has biked across much of the South in the past 3 years, spreading peace and healing.
- Broadcast on:
- 26 May 2013
- Audio Format:
- other
[music] Let us sing this song for the healing of the world That we may hear as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along And our lives will feel the echo of our healing [music] Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred food in your own life. Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world That we may dream as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along I feel very fortunate today to welcome back Jacob George for Spirit in Action. I admit that I feel conflicted about soldiers sometimes, wanting to affirm their service and sacrifice, but also wanting to speak clearly about my beliefs in opposition to war and in favor of true peace. Jacob George, banjo player, veteran of three tours in Afghanistan and passionate biker for peace is the perfect guide for me, and maybe for you, to find concordance between the competing thoughts and feelings that swirl around about war. Jacob released a CD this past month called Soldier's Heart, and that's what we'll be seeing and listening to over the next hour. A Soldier's Heart become a warrior's heart that of Jacob George joining us by phone from Arkansas. Jacob, it's great to have you back. This time for Spirit in Action. Great to be back Mark. I'm excited to have another conversation with you. Last time I talked to you, you shared your song of the soul, and that was before your CD release party. I hope there's lots of people breaking down your doors to get a hold of your music. You've got such a gift of music to share with the world. But not only that, I mean, it's the story. What is the mix when you go out talking about your experiences with war in the Middle East, war in Afghanistan? How much do you play music? How much do you do speeches talking? That kind of thing. Well, when I first started off doing this work, I brought my banjo along just so we could have some way to make the money while we were on the road. That was our main source of income. But what was discovered through the course of the first year or two of doing this and the music is the most powerful tool that we have in terms of challenging the narrative of war and presenting complex things. And to try to talk about ideas and to make them palatable without polarizing the debate. And it seems to be harder to do that giving speeches and talking that it is to do that with a song. If people tuned in and listened to the song of the soul interview I did with you, Jacob, they're already going to have some of this background. But I think it's ground we need to cover again. Could you tell folks how you got involved in going to war, your experience there in the aftermath? Just give us the broad outlines and then we'll fill in the details as we go along. Sure. I joined the military when I was 18. I grew up on a chicken farm in the Washita Mountains of Arkansas. I joined for all the right reasons. I was seeking a variety of passage. I wanted to be a warrior. I wanted to serve my people. I wanted to go to school. I wanted to get an education. I couldn't afford to do those things. So the military offered me a lot of things I was looking for. I also love adventuring. I'm a ramblin' hillbilly so that was a guarantee to take it to travel around the world. So I wanted to be a tree towards Afghanistan. The first was about a month after September 11. Third was '03 and '04, and then I got out. I say that's when the real journey began for me into warriorhood. Why is it not until afterwards that that journey begins? Well, I joined the military to become a warrior, but what happened was I was turned into a soldier. That's an honorable thing. The soldier is loyal and the soldier is technically and tactically proficient. And the soldier fulfills the contract to protect the people of this nation's request. Those were all good things, and they felt good, and I'm proud of those things. But some part of that felt empty, and I didn't really know what that was until I got out, and I started to seek my healing path after experiencing war. And what I discovered on that path was that I had not become a warrior while I was in the military. I'd become a soldier, and there's a big difference. One of the main differences is a warrior has an empathic understanding with the enemy. So much so that causing pain or harm to the enemy causes pain or harm to the warrior, and that's not what I was trained to do, and that's not how I was trained to interact with our enemies. That took a lot of retraining, but I will say that if I had not joined the military, I do not think that transformation would have been as powerful in my life, so I'm grateful for that. You referred to this as a healing journey. How bad was it when you came back? Was this right away you came back and you're having flashbacks to the war time? You know, what they call PTSD? Yes, I had all the classic symptoms. I remember coming back, and within the first couple of months, my brother, who's nine years younger than me, commented that I wasn't his brother anymore, and that he just didn't recognize who I was. I had a hard time speaking in complete sentences. I was full of anger and rage. I was drinking a lot. I was homeless on and off for a couple of years. I couldn't hold down a job. I was just really upset about everything, and I didn't know how to say it. That was one of the most complicated things for me. It wasn't until I went to college and started learning how to articulate my experiences, but I was able to begin my grieving process. That was a big eye opener for me, because how many people in this world lack the ability to articulate what's really troubling them and pains them? What kind of pain are you talking about there? Well, I had had a series of experiences while I was in. Afghanistan, they were troubling to me, but I didn't know what they were, what they meant, or why I was so upset about it. I think it was history courses and anthropology courses that helped me grasp most of why I was upset about that situation. But there was one situation where it was the first space I visited on the Pax Sam border in the summer of 2002. The helicopter landed in this little valley and ran off the helicopter and there was an Afghan farmer standing there looking at me like I was a demon. He was definitely not happy to see me there. He was actually quite scared. I got to thinking about that, and if I was out at my grandpa's farm, we were working chickens, and a helicopter landed out there, and heavily armed and ran off, I'd probably be a little upset too. Maybe a little bit. You're right, and I would probably go as far as to pick up a weapon and fight back. That was a real opener for me on why this conflict is going on, what motivates people to fight back, and that we, for the most part, have ill-billy farmers fighting ill-billy farmers while millions of people in both of our country starved. You said you went into the war for good reasons, for the good reasons, right? Including getting an education and other things for yourself. When you signed up, did you have any hope or intention of actually fighting? I joined in 2000, in the fall of 2000, and, you know, after I got through my soldier training and everything that I needed to do, I did want to test my skills. It's like going to work every day and training to do a job, but never actually doing the job. So, war presents that unique opportunity for a soldier to go do his or her job. And I was excited about that, and I was also very young and naive. So, that changed over the course of three tours in Afghanistan. I wonder if you can make it a little bit more explicit. What was the naivete that you had to give up? What changed for you from your perspective? Honestly, I never really questioned the U.S. foreign policy. I never really questioned who the enemy was or why we called them enemies. I just wholeheartedly believed that I was doing something and being told to do something because all the right just decisions had been made in order to ask me to go do something. It was through participating in war that I started to question the judgments and the effectiveness of violence, to some extent, the diplomatic tool being used around the world. The U.S. using the military as a method of enforcing policy. You know, I never, never probably would have started questioning that given the way that I was brought up and where I lived. If I hadn't gone and experienced it and decided that that just did not line up with my personal beliefs and what I was taught. You mentioned your brother a couple times. This is a journey that you've made. Has your family taken the ride with you? Is this a change in perspective that you've been able to share beyond just yourself? Well, that is a good question. This whole thing really started a ride till the end. That's the bicycle ride. It's been going on for the past three years. We've covered over 8,000 miles riding our bikes around the country and using music to explore the effects and consequences of the war. This whole thing started in early 2010 when my younger brother Jordan received orders to put Afghanistan at the age of 19. My brother was very concerned about this. He was in the Arkansas National Guard. He was an infantryman. And he had seen what happened to me when I went to war. As I said earlier, when I came back, he commented on how he didn't really recognize me anymore. And he remembered that. And he didn't want that to happen to him. And I did my first tour when I was 19. So here we are nine years later. Nine-year age gap between our brother and I. And he's being deployed at the age of 19 to Afghanistan. And we both started to rapidly change this world and our lives. It finally dawned on me that this war has gone an entire generation. Once I started to watch my brother suit up and get ready to go. And then it dawned on my brother simultaneously. He's about to go see some of the things I went through and is going to be a really hard road afterwards. So Jordan, his name is Jordan George. Jordan decided he wanted to resist the war. And he decided he wanted to go AWOL and protest of it. And it was completely inspiring to me. It took me three tours in Afghanistan to make some critical decisions about that war. All he had to do was get the orders. And he figured it out. I was very impressed by that. So were both musicians. We come for a musical family. We're like, hey, are we getting our bicycles? And go tell as many people our story as we can. And we're going to try to do this before you get arrested. So we have a, you know, quite a few people know what's going on with your story. Because it's kind of a sensational thing to hillbillies from Arkansas. One sergeant, a three-tour bat, the other one resisting the war. And both of them not wanting him to go. So that's what we did in that community here, mostly Quakers, stood up with us and said, this is a great idea. And we support y'all. And so that started pulling all these other people into this project. And then, you know, it's just been magic every since, within three months of taking direct action. Jordan received a general discharge with a horrible intent without a single day in jail. He did not have to go. We were very surprised by that. And about six months ago, Jordan ran into one of the members from his unit that was around his age. People who had joined while they were in high school. He told them that after Jordan went AWOL and did what he did, a lot of other younger vets went AWOL as well. Really? Wow. And so many people went AWOL from that unit that they became non-deployable. And the entire unit was grounded and never went to Afghanistan. Talk about having an effect. Right. When he told me that, I was like, oh my gosh. It was amazing. I was in tears. Because, well, our initial plan was to try to get him put into jail. He was like, I want to go to prison, not before I go to Afghanistan. I don't want to go. Let's make him arrest me. So that's what, you know, we set out to do. But that's not how it worked out and all these other really great things happened. So through the first three months of that ride, you know, we were really nervous. We were waiting for the police to show up all the time. Every time we saw law enforcement officer, we were just on ice shelves and it turned out in a very awesome way. And then once Jordan found that out, he took off. He was like, I am really glad I didn't have to go to work. And I'm ready to go be a 19-year-old kid now. And we were like, awesome. So we were at a standstill here for a second like, wait a second, what were we going to do now? What we realized was through the course of this time, many of that to jump on board with us. And we had noticed a profound healing effect from modding our bicycles around and telling our stories and each other and in ourselves. So we decided, well, we got to keep doing this because this has gotten a little bigger than Jordan. So we're still riding to this day. You know, a lot of us who do peace and justice work. Sometimes it feels like we're throwing our resources into an endless bucket and we never get to see an effect. It's so gratifying to hear from you, Jacob, the effect that you had. Jacob, George, and Jordan, George, making a difference. I mean, one person looking at his experience saying, okay, I've gone through the learning curve. Usually it's hard to pass that along, but it's so gratifying to hear that your brother picked up, joined in and ended up being first of the dominoes to tip over and move in a good direction. You keep talking about this bike trip and I'm imagining some of our listeners didn't have the good luck to hear you while you're playing along while you're traveling along. Maybe they didn't get to host you and have you cook and wash their dishes. Could you tell me a little bit about what you did, how much you've done, where you did it? Oh, sure. And I want to comment on something you were just saying, the investment and the return of this work. I was not politically active. I didn't care that much about truly organizing all these things. It's very new to me when I started off. And this community really cradled me and taught me the ways, so to speak. And if we ever needed to raise funds, they would help us do that. They sent me to all kinds of different trainings. One of the most important ones for me was with a group called Training for Change out of Philadelphia. I think George Lakey founded that. And it was a very powerful training on facilitating pro-conflict dialogue. You know, when I come back here for the winter to say it in Arkansas, I train people. I turn this training around that I gather while I'm gone all year and I try to share it with the community. So I feel forever indebted to a certain degree to this community. And I help and I share as much as I can. So we're constantly giving to each other in a good way. And that's been a great lesson to me on how powerful community really is and how it takes a community to heal a veteran. Now, on a ride till the end, or art, we call it art, or the ride, A-R-T-T-E, we've covered almost every state in the American South twice. We typically use music as our platform to talk about healing and to challenge the narrative of war. And we're an autonomous collective, so will anyone can join us? The only role that we have is that we can't ask anyone to come. If someone wants to ride with us, they have to ask us if they can go. And there's a lot of reasons for that. The main reason is living on a bicycle is a strong departure from what life normally is in the society. When people make the decision to go, watch their life start to spiral, and things start to change rapidly. And once they're on the road, you know, things start to play out a little bit. But this has been a very transformative medium for almost everyone who's gotten involved. And it's beautiful to watch, and I feel honored to be involved with it and to get to participate in it in some way. It's really built to tell our stories. Now, we'll play big events and venues and play in churches and radical bookstores and, you know, all over the place. There's not a single place where we wouldn't go in and play. Actually, one of my favorite things to do on the road is go on conservative talk radio. I love it. It's great. And I grew up listening to it, and I like bringing our tools to that world. And I like bringing that dialogue to that audience. I'm really who will target while we're on the road because we want to talk to people who normally wouldn't be engaging in this type of dialogue. So here's an average day riding through the south on bicycle. For riding along, at some point in time we stopped for water at a gas station or some other spot. And someone asks us, "Is that a banjo on your bicycle?" Yes. We've also had many other variety of instruments. Someone was pulling a harp on a trailer on their bicycle behind this one time. We've had a wash tub base. All kinds of awesome instruments. But people are really curious, like, "What are you doing riding around with all these instruments on bicycles?" And we'll tell them more veterans than we ride for evening, and we like to play music, share a story. Now, sometimes at a tender like, "Oh, you can come stay at our place tonight." We'll make you dinner. You can talk to our kids. You can sing music for us. We love bluegrass. That really opens the door for us to share our message and share it in an intimate way where we're listening. And usually, if some art streams are played when we sit down and speak with each other, they'll recommend that we go stay with the friends. Or they'll say, "Hey, there's this really great church." I think you all would like maybe y'all could stick around and play there on Sunday. One time we did that in Texas, and they wound up just handing over the whole sermon to us and let us talk about peace and nonviolence to the entire congregation. And it's those kind of spontaneous events I think that are the most fruitful and exciting course. Although there is a lot to be said about strategic campaigns and organizing stuff months ahead. But it sounds like organizing isn't what necessarily calls you the most. No, it isn't. There are tools that I use. When I need to, I'll use them. But I really like to go where the wind blows and just do whatever I can with whatever I got. A wandering hillbilly, like you said there. Just take off and fly. Right. So tell me, you said that what you really like to do, your favorite, is conservative talk radio. Something that you grew up on. It's something that, you know, you enjoyed it, right? I mean, it's home to you in a lot of ways. Obviously, your views have changed from, I think, the mainstream of talk radio views. How do you engage with them? Does this turn into a shouting match? I imagine that Rush Limbaugh would not be so happy with you. Oh, no. I would never raise my voice in an environment like that. I try not to do anyway. But from what I've gathered being on the road, like the first six months I was out, I tried to talk to people about voice and about how I felt about it. And that's time. But it's olderizes the debate, especially given that I was veteran. And I'm saying strong things about war. What I've started to realize was that the most important and powerful thing I can do is listen, to try to understand where people are coming from. And if I start off by listening, instead of talking, this person is more prone to listen to me once they're finished talking. And if I listen to them very closely, they will give me cues and pointers on how I need to frame talking about war to them in order for us to have a valuable conversation. So I approach being in the media in particular and doing talk radio and things like that. In a similar way, I'll start off just testing the waters, try to get to end the talk. And of course, journalists and radio personalities want to ask a list of the questions, but I'll do my fair share during that, as well. And if it looks like things are going to be politically hostile and they have turned that direction, then I'll bring up my convictions and my faith because that is the one thing that is nine times out of ten people on those radio shows. So I'll start talking about the gospel of Jesus and the non-violence life of Jesus Christ, and what it needs to be a Christian trying to live the path of Jesus and to be inspired by that. My fellow organizers and friends usually call that the J-bomb. Whenever it comes out on a conservative talk radio show, so we'll come out of the gate with it, but if it looks like things are going to get a little iffy, then I'll bring religion and faith into dialogue, and that's usually disarmed everything. Yeah, well, actually, I have an experience. I was on a local Christian radio station here. I was part of a peace group. They brought me in, and it was actually a setup because they had me on as a representative of this local group, and they had David Horowitz on, you know who he is, right? So it's the two of us, right? And you know, David Horowitz has got a lot of experience in this, right? And I did talk about my faith. My faith as a Quaker, in this case, and particularly as a Christian. Right away, David Horowitz is saying, "Well, that's fine for you, some of that, but you can't force this on everyone." It's like, "Well, I'm not trying to force it on everyone, but I do hope that everybody will take a good look at it." And he's saying, "Well, that's not important." And I was kind of amazed because I realized we were on a Christian radio station, and he's kind of saying, "What are you talking about? Jesus doesn't really matter." I thought that was kind of nervy, but then I guess he's not Christian, right? Right. He's just right winged by most people's standards. Yeah, that's really interesting. Obviously, if any of your listeners heard the last interview, some roots in the Baptist Church and a Christian background. And I find it interesting, this is something I run into a lot, especially during peace work and with social justice communities. I don't run into too many people who are faith-based, who do these things and become a faith, or that seem to understand the historical significance around faith-based organizing. I mean, we like to hear quotes from Martin Luther King, Jr., or Malcolm X, Gandhi, Badshakan, Jesus. All these very famous, what could be considered, historical organizers that use nonviolent principles very effectively. But something that's often ignored in it, like the communities that I work in, is that every single one of those people was considered a religious or spiritual leader in their community, and that's where the real source of their power was in organizing. A faith plays a very strong role, and an ability to organize and mobilize large groups of people, and to create change in communities and in the rest of the world. Which is, of course, why I do Northern Spirit radio programs, both Spirit and Action and Song of the Soul. I'm not trying to convince anybody that my beliefs are the beliefs that they should follow. That's not what this shows about, but it is that we can access a power far beyond our individual little power if we can communally look at these things and turn to them together. There are a lot of people who stood with Martin Luther King, who certainly weren't Baptist, American Baptist, or otherwise. There are awful lot of people who were with Gandhi that weren't Hindus. The power of that transcendent message, that closeness to the divine and the way that that can transform our lives is unfortunate, I think, on the left that so often we don't avail ourselves of that power. Right. I think it's very unfortunate as well. On the other hand, the fortunate thing is, you are doing that, so kudos for you. You know, whenever I'm reading Gandhi quotes and listening to Martin Luther King Jr. Sermons or just searching for inspiration, that's the main thing that I hear when they're talking is how they're driven by their faith and by the Spirit and so on. And yes, all of those things can be viewed as powerful and useful tools and the faith and obviously, because it has been, can be completely removed from the picture and they can just be looked at as impeccable organizers and great charismatic figures. But for me, it's just, I can't even fathom looking at them as something without incorporating that faith into the picture. You know, I had a question about your bike traveling, you and the other vets that have traveled around this way. Why on bicycles? Why not on Harleys? Well, I think most importantly, it is very healing to ride the bicycle all day. It's basically like moving meditation. But if you want to asking a veteran with severe PTSD to sit down and breathe for a couple hours is very unlikely, an unlikely request. Doing it on a bicycle is a way to work through things just like meditating, but you get to move and you get to push some of that stuff out. And by far, some of the most intense and beautiful conversations that have happened on a bike ride are in the evening after we've been riding all day and we're sitting around a campfire. We're all pitching in on trucking and cleaning up. And people start to open up and become vulnerable to talk about things that have been on their mind all day or maybe through the course of the day they were able to kind of spin their mind out where it was still for a little bit. And it hasn't been that way for eight years and they want to share that as well. So there's a lot to be said about what can come out of riding a bicycle all day, especially with a group of veterans that are intentionally building a container where we can share these things with each other. Now, there's also some strategic reasons for doing that as well. So a lot of us who are doing this work are just as concerned about the environment as we are more. We think those things are two things that are very interwoven. And we like to try to create an atmosphere on a ride till the end where cross fertilization is key. By that, I mean, we like to bring together groups from many different backgrounds and really create a platform where we can all speak. Some are unique points about war and what concerns us. And there's a way to talk about war and how devastating it is to the environment. There's a way to talk about war and the obvious institutional racism that comes along with war. There's a way to talk about war and the war on women and sexual assault. So we see this is really important because it was largely the cost fertilization of the Civil Rights Movement with anti-war movement and women's liberation. And all the movements that were happening in the '60s era that allowed it to turn into a counterculture revolution. And a lot of us as organizers see a very similar circumstance on the horizon right now in this country. There are many different fragmented movements going in many directions, but they are cross-fertilizing. And the more that happens, the more that we understand that we're all moving in the same direction, that we can all help each other reach these goals. You're certainly doing that. We're speaking with Jacob George. One place that you can track him down on the web is via the website OperationAware.org. I recommend that you come through NorthernSpiritRadio.org to find that connection to Jacob George. This is Spirit in Action, and I'm your host, Mark Helpsmeet. We're on the web at NorthernSpiritRadio.org, where you can find almost eight years of our Spirit in Action and Song of the Soul programs. You'll find links to our guests like that to Jacob George. You'll also find a place to leave comments. Please, when you visit, do post a comment. We do take suggestions from our listeners. Also on the site, there's a place to leave donations. You can leave it for us, NorthernSpiritRadio. But I also want to remind you, please support your local community radio station. They're doing an invaluable job of bringing you a slice of reality that too often gets edited out of mass media. So please, do support local community radio stations. They're a great resource. Again, we have with us today Jacob George. Among other things, he did three tours of duty in Afghanistan. He's done a lot of healing since those days, and we're talking about that. And we're talking about the transformational work he's doing, including his biking around the entire South of the United States. One thing I'm disappointed about, Jacob, is that you haven't been biking up to Wisconsin yet. Are there plans ahead for that? That's a possibility that we were considering in 2014 during a Northern trip. And also this year, we'll be traveling all over the country. Some of the back car, I know that's cheating. But this year, we'll have a support vehicle on the road with us, and it will be carrying music equipment and merchandise for our new album, Soldier's Hearts. The whole reason we wrote this album, Soldier's Heart, over this last winter, was we wanted to design a fundraising tool that we could use to raise money to send a delegation of Afghan vets back to Afghanistan this year next year. That might sound kind of bizarre, but I went back to Afghanistan in 2011, and I experienced some profound healing and transformation while I was there. Just for a month, when I came back, my sisters and brothers noticed it in me, and they very much enjoyed the stories that I had to tell. And eventually, it was brought up that other people want to go do that. So myself and this other vet who went back, and by the way, as far as we know from what we understand, we were the first two veterans to go back to the war, that combat zone, Afghanistan, and to start organizing for nonviolence as a tool that the Afghans can use to actually push against occupational forces. We were trying to think of a way to come up with the money to do this, and we thought, well, what better way than to write an album of music about Afghanistan and about PTSD and to use that album as the fundraising tool to send a group back. So that's how that whole thing came about, and we will likely be doing shows and things all over the country this year in order to try to raise enough money to send a small group back. People can go to nordonspiritradio.org and tune into the song of the soul interview that I did with Jacob George. You'll hear five of the songs there. I'm wondering, Jacob, if there's more music that you'd like to share here now, so that people have an idea of what you're doing with your amazing banjo. Well, earlier in the program, I spoke about that farmer that I saw when I ran off the helicopter. Now, we were in a very remote area on the Aztec border, that's the Aztec accent border. There was a very small hill that we had to go up onto, and most of more than 50 people all together on this hill. So we were up on this hill kind of getting settled in, and I saw this guy up there that looked really familiar, but he wasn't wearing his pops, so I couldn't see his name plate. I couldn't see what his name was, but we kept looking at each other, and we definitely recognized each other. So later on that evening, I saw him, and he had his pop on, and his last name was Freeman. And the first thing that popped into my mind was, "Oh, my gosh, that's one of my childhood friends from Danzo Arkansas. Danzo Arkansas has about 2,000 people in it to the watchtower mountains. My next door neighbor's son lived in a town called Hector that he would come to the summers at his mom's house, so he would hang out and raise all kinds of trouble." And then I thought, "No, that's not him. What are the odds of that happening?" I didn't even know he was in the military. So I chewed on it for a little bit longer, and I just yelled his name out. I was like, "Jimmy." I was like, "Jimmy." I sure enough, he turns around, and that's him. But we had seen each other since I was 16, and here we are still causing trouble, still running around in the mountains. We just have to be on the other side of the world. And so the song he wrote, obviously, "Jimmy Freeman." It seemed like just a few years ago, I don't know, background and 90s or so. I was running up and down, that mountain in my town. Well, Danville Mountain was a name. Running and shooting was our game. Up and down that mountain with no shame. But causing trouble was our thing. With the BB guns and rubber slings, we had a fox hole for it and a Danville battle cry. When's me and Jimmy against the world? It's writing off all those squirrels and girls. The best damn days of my life. Well, to hold me home I'm growing up on a mountain side of the fighting part and running all the time. Well, to hold my home I'm rambling all over this world you see, and I can't take the mountains out of me. My left home when I was 16, say goodbye to Jimmy and the guys, and I went to El Paso to cut my teeth. And it seemed like every corner turned had another hunt unless I'm waiting to be learned and along was there to help me get it right. Well, then I met a man who gave me a hand he said his name was old Uncle Sam, so I hopped on his plane to scratch my edgy feet. And off the war went too much pride, fought for my country boat day and night right on the Afghan Pakistan line. Well, to hold me home I'm growing up on a mountain side of the fighting part and running all the time. Well, to hold my home I'm rambling all over this world you see, and I can't take the mountains out of me. [Music] So there I was on a mountain top I was trying my best not to get shot by the angry farmers whose homes we just took. So when I looked around that old man you'll never guess who I saw then but none other than that dad gum Jimmy Freeman from Arkansas. There wasn't more than 50 people on that mountain top and my next-door neighbor's son just happened to be up there. I said hold me home I'm growing up on a mountain side of the fighting part and running all the time. I said hold my home I'm rambling all over this world you see, and I can't take the mountains out of me. Well, to hold me home I'm growing up on a mountain side of the fighting part and running all the time. Well, to hold my home I'm rambling all over this world you see, and I can't take the mountains out of me. I said I can't take them out out of me. I said I can't take them out out of me. [Music] That's a sampling of some of the fine music you'll hear by Jacob George. It's from his new release Soldiers Heart just out this past month. You can follow a link to get to it via northernspiritradio.org. So, Jacob, there's still some things I'm a little bit unclear about. You've talked about some of the ideas that changed your political perspective, but I'm not sure exactly how they feed into your healing that you went through. The PTSD that you were suffering from. Could you talk a little bit about that? What got you there? Oh, sure. Heck, I wish we had about eight hours to get into that. I do a lot of work in the VA. I'll try just about any program they have for PTSD. And I have to say that I haven't really found one scene that has been really helpful for me. It's all of these many, many, many things that I've tried that have helped me gain deeper inside into myself. And what I really want to do and change inside of me, one of the more powerful ones was at the Minnesota Men's Conference. I had gone to this with a friend and dear elder. His name is Zayla, and I call him elder because he's a Vietnam veteran. He's been walking his path as healing since before I was born. So he has a lot of great insight into what will work and what won't. And because of that, he's been able to share things with me that have helped me heal very quickly. And one of the first things this guy said to me was, it has taken some of us 40 years to get to the point where we're at right now. If we as Vietnam veterans do not step up and share something with your generation that makes that at least 20 years shorter, then we have done nothing. And I have to tell you that a lot of the things he shared with me has accelerated my healing process. He's done exactly what he sought out to do, and I have a lot of respect for that. So he asked me to go to this men's conference in Minnesota. Of course, I was like, "Yes, I'll do pretty much anything, yes." And they see this thing, and there are two Native American men there, or one is a veteran, one isn't. But the one is that his veteran was a Marine Corps veteran from Vietnam, and he had come to put all veterans that were attending to a warrior's dance. And basically a rite of passage ceremony for the warrior. So basically we got together, and he asked us about our experiences at war, just the veterans in a small group. And we shared them with him, and he painted our faces according to our experiences. And then he had us dance behind him. And one of the things that was really shocking for me was he wore his Marine Corps uniform. It was cut up, and different parts of it were sewn onto his traditional gun. So it was kind of this mix of a Marine Corps uniform, and a traditional Native American headdress, and other things. And I was completely blown away. This guy was involved with the American Indian movement. He was an activist and aint a new inner peltier. I thought of all people, how can this guy, a Native American, someone involved with him, how can he still wear his uniform? And that was a very strong and other thing for me to digest, but as I watched him do what he was doing with pride, it gave me permission to wear my uniform in a different way. So let me be proud, proud of my service and who I was. That was a very healing feeling for me because I had packed that uniform away and discarded it. The guard was completely worthless to some degree at that point in time, and he really showed me that there was some value in that. So he marched us into this room where our civilian brothers had formed a big circle, and we went to the center of the circle, and we shared our story. And basically how the ceremony was set up is we could say whatever we needed to, and as long as we needed to, this circle was not breaking until every vet had said their piece. And that was incredibly healing for all of us. So we finished up the ceremony, and I went to go see these two men. I had some questions about why things happened the way they did, why he wore his Marine Corps uniform, and all of these things. He told me that this is a very important ceremony in his tribe because when you send someone off the war, when the tribe sends people off the war, they know that these people are dramatically altered. And they know that some of the things that happen at war and some of the ones that are suffered can become contagious psychologically, spiritually, emotionally, and the community. If they do not go through the proper ceremonies when they reintegrate. So they have the whole community come out and circle their warriors, and the warriors all tell their story so that the rest of the community can take full responsibility and accountability for what they ask their warriors to go do. And so the rest of the community understands who these people are now and that they are not the people that they ask to go eat and do this. So he started to talk about this as a generational curse that gets passed on if this ceremony isn't done, and I started to open my mind up to what PTSD is and how it is contagious. It's called secondary post-traumatic stress. It gets fed to an entire family or a country. And he went on to describe to me what a warrior is and now there's a big difference between a soldier and a warrior. And then he awarded me my first legal feather. He wanted to honor the fact that I had gone back to Afghanistan and that I had shown a fantastic understanding of the enemy. And that I had earned my right of passage into warriorhood. This song is about the difference between a soldier and a warrior. You see a soldier is loyal. The soldier is technically and tactically proficient. The soldier follows orders. Now a warrior ain't so good a following orders. Because a warrior follows the heart. You see a warrior has in pathic understanding with the enemy. So much so that the very thought of causing pain to the enemy causes pain to the warrior. You see a warrior understands that we fight to make a stand. No matter the injustice we might see. And I'm telling you that's nothing but the truth. I'll be the best to war I could be. Now my veteran sisters and brothers and I had heard that NATO generals were going to be meeting in Chicago in early 2012. And we thought we'd give them the opportunity to honor us as warriors by returning our medals. So we let them know what we wanted to do. And told them we wanted them to ceremoniously receive them. And they refused. So we decided we were going to march straight to the gates of that summit and throw them back. Because we were seeking a rite of passage in the warriorhood. And we wanted to show the world that this country still has warriors. It was a hot and sunny day in Chicago as we lined up to march down the road. With 20,000 strong there was nothing to go wrong as we sang songs through every barricade. Now I held my head high as I marched beside my sisters and brothers in arms. And there's nobody day than the day that we marched to the gates. The NATO barricade hot said now a boy understands that we fight to make a stand no matter the injustice we might see. And I'm telling you that's nothing but the truth. I'll be the best to war I could be. Now we carried our flag next to the Afghan flag to show the world where we stand. Surrounding I'll suppose a circle of trust by veterans of many wolves past. And there are sang songs as they must along streets that were paved for police. And that's okay because they led the way straight to. The NATO barricade hot said now a boy understands that we fight to make a stand no matter the injustice we might see. And I'm telling you that's nothing but the truth. I'll be the best to war I could be. I was a soldier for too many years. I caused my fair share of war and fear. But that all changed the day I took the stage and told the world the wild was there. And I said now I'm a headed tireless war like a fella. But crazier than crazy could be. So today's the day I give my medals away so I could be the best to war I could be. I said I'll be the best to war I could be. Now a boy understands that we fight to make a stand no matter the injustice we might see. And I'm telling you that's nothing but the truth. I'll be the best to war I could be. I said now a boy understands that we fight to make a stand no matter the injustice we might see. And I'm telling you that's nothing but the truth. I'll be the best to war I could be. I said I'll be the best to war I could be. I said I'll be the best to war I could be. Jacob George sharing his song. Warrior. Followed link from NortonSpiritRadio.org to connect up with Jacob and with his music. Jacob George is with us here today for spirit in action. You were talking Jacob that happened at the Minnesota Men's Conference right? How do you connect up with that? I've never been to it myself even though I'm right next door in Wisconsin. Well I think there's definitely resources available online. Anyone can attend it. I think there is a couple of international men there. So people from around the world come to it. I think they have kind of a revolving agenda for what I gather. That was my first one but they do things a little different every year. So I think all you have to do is log on to the website to get involved. I'll put a link for it on my site, NortonSpiritRadio.org here with the interview with Jacob George. God just a little bit more time Jacob. You want to leave us with any particular thoughts, any particular insights that have made a difference to you and maybe an idea where we're going to connect up with you over this coming summer? Well, I really appreciate the great questions that you ask Mark and I appreciate everyone who's listening to this because although we're not in a circle and we don't have our faces painted and so on. I think this is still a crucial part of this reintegration ceremony. I'm very grateful to have the opportunity to share my story and have people listen to it. So that helps me a lot and I hope it helps a couple of years as well. So some of our plans this year involve riding with Cindy Sheehan. Cindy Sheehan is riding a bicycle across the country as of right now, California to Washington. And she's coming pretty close to Arkansas. So when she gets a little bit closer, we're going to link up with her and ride with her for about a month. Then we'll move into more of an outreach campaign and fundraising campaign for the trip back to Afghanistan, which will hopefully happen early winter if it can happen this year. I hope that the spirit travels with you, not only the spirit of enthusiasm, but that deep spirit that connects us to all things. Our brothers and sisters in Afghanistan, in Iraq, here in the U.S., all of us being brothers and sisters. I hope that that powers you super powered across the country on your bicycles. What you're doing in your music and in your witness is just so powerful, Jacob. And I'm just so grateful you could join us today for spirit and action. Oh, it's my pleasure, Mark. Thank you for having me. The theme music for this program is Turning of the World, performed by Sarah Thompson. This spirit in action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio. You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website, northernspiritradio.org. Thank you for listening. I am your host, Mark Helpsmeet, and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is spirit in action. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. And our lives will feel the echo of our healing. You