Spirit in Action
Freedom Through Frugality - Jane Dwinell
Jane Dwinell's third and newest book is Freedom Through Frugality: Spend Less, Have More, an inspirational in very practical guide to saving your life's energy through frugality. Jane is lively, insightful and spiritual -- she's a Unitarian Universalist minister.
- Broadcast on:
- 21 Oct 2012
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[music] Let us sing this song for the healing of the world That we may hear as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world alone And our lives will feel the echo of our healing [music] Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helps me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives Of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, Creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them In their service, hoping to inspire and encourage you To sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. [music] Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world That we may dream as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world alone More excellent info and inspiring examples on today's Spirit in Action We'll be talking with Jane Doinell, author of "Freedom Through Frugality" Spend less, have more. It's a great book full of powerful thoughts and insights But also very practical and useful suggestions Jane's CV is long and varied and she brings the same richness To her conversation that she features in her books If you're looking to improve the quality of your life You'll most likely be helped in that quest by Jane Doinell She joins us by phone from her home in Vermont Jane, it's wonderful to have you here today for "Spirit in Action" Hi, thanks for having me Of course, we're going to talk about your book "Freedom Through Frugality" Spend less, have more But let's start out with a ringing endorsement of it My wife saw it sitting here because I was reading it And so she picked it up and she decided that it's a book that we should use For our family, for our process to get our spending in line With our income more properly So I have to thank you way up front here Oh my goodness, that's fabulous You've been doing this work for a number of years Actually, according to the book, you've had just about every Avocation and vocation under the sun What is your main vocation right now? My main vocation is that I'm retired Because we lived a frugal life My husband and I were able to retire from paid work a few years ago In our mid-50s So we spend our time now doing volunteer work on a lot of different fronts As well as doing a lot of the fun things that we like to do This is the second book you've produced "Freedom Through Frugality" Actually, it's the third, but I didn't produce the first one A publisher produced the first one Okay, so what was your first book? My first book was a childbirth book called "Birth Stories, Mystery, Power, and Creation" And it chronicled my professional years Originally, as a registered nurse, was running Vermont's first in hospital birthing center Subsequent to leaving that position, Ivan wrote "Birth Stories" Which was a book intended for both pregnant women and healthcare professionals Telling stories of different kinds of births as a story And then sort of explaining what happened and maybe how it could have gone better Or how it went perfectly or whatever That was a good book, it's still in print You said that you and your husband are now retired Because this frugality paid off for you personally When did you get into the frugality mode of living? Well, we have lived frugally the entire time we've been together We were both committed to the back to the land kind of simple living lifestyle We had a small farm and we raised dollar on food, we built our house, we lived off the grid That was wonderful and that was really good, but I didn't have the framework I didn't have the knowledge of what else I was getting by living on less money And when I read "Your Money or Your Life" by Vicki Robin and Joe Dominguez in 1993 The lights went off in my head because that book is a nine-step program To help you learn to be in relationship with your own money And how you spend it and how your values may be calling you to spend it differently Than what you are doing currently And by following the program and learning about your money more, keeping track of your expenses Looking at how you spend your money every month and asking yourself the question "Is this spending in alignment with my values?" You eventually reach the place of "enough" Which is knowing exactly how much money you need to live the kind of fulfilling life that you want So the overarching goal of their program, which some people move to and some people don't Is as you earn money, you are probably living on less money than what you're earning Because you've learned this place of "enough" which may not be that much money You then save your money, invest it safely and properly And when you reach, they call it the crossover point Where your income from your investments equals what is enough for you Then you don't have to keep working for money anymore if you don't want to And if you love your work fine, then you keep working for money And actually, we reached the crossover point a few years before we actually retired Because we were enjoying our work and we wanted to keep doing it And then we finally reached that day where we looked at each other and said "Let's do something else now, let's retire, see how it goes, find some good things to volunteer doing" So, that's what we did Is this possible for anyone even in a horrible economy like what we have now? Well, I feel very sorry for people who were not prepared for this economic downturn Because it certainly has been devastating for so many people But anybody who's still working now can begin to take the steps to understand their relationship with money And to take further steps to begin to spend less money and put aside money If for no other reason, then for the security in case they do lose their job Or some other crisis happens in their life It brings a lot of security to know that you're out of debt And that you have at least six months of living expenses put aside in a savings account I do believe that, yeah, anybody who's got a job now could take steps to become more frugal and move in this direction What about the people who are already unemployed or living on the edges? Is this book going to be helpful for them? Well, you know, that's a good question. I think it depends on the person and how they live their life Certainly, there's many, many people who have lost their jobs who have been thrown into the frugality world And had to learn very quickly how to be frugal But there may be places where they could become more frugal and they don't realize it And so the information in the book could be helpful to them I give this example that still stuns me My husband and I volunteered quite a bit in New Orleans after Katrina And at one point we actually rented an apartment in a duplex And the woman next door to us who was on public assistance But did have a part-time job in a fast food restaurant A lovely woman and we had a good time being neighbors One month we accidentally got each other's electric bills And opened them before we realized and both of us were stunned Her electric bill was $175 and our electric bill was $25 That was because she just used electricity all the time She had a big flat-screen TV that was on all day long When she was home and awake She had an air conditioner that she kept going so that her apartment was an ice cube And she had her lights on all the time because she had curtains at all the windows Even though we were on the second floor and there were no other second floor buildings around us Whereas we had a ceiling fan over our bed instead of an air conditioner We had no television and we shut our curtains at night when we got into bed But not in the daytime we used natural light to be able to illuminate our space So there's a lot of things a lot of people could do if they took the time to pay attention And really thought about how they spend their money If you worked with this woman, do you think that you could turn her financial situation around? Of course this would demand willingness on her part Right, I could, though you're absolutely right Somebody really has to want to do this because it's not that easy This woman, for example, was a chain smoker I mean that's the first place is to look at any of your bad habits And we all have something that's a bad habit For me, I was a big fan of really good potato chips And I just bought bags of potato chips and you know, they're expensive after a while So this woman was a chain smoker, but you know, that kind of step It's one thing to give up potato chips, but it's another thing to give up smoking And anybody who tried to do that knows how hard it is So people really, really want to have to do this Because you get at some point where you just want to throw money at things and say, you know, I'm tired of cooking for myself from scratch I want to go out to eat or I'm tired of walking, I wish I had a car You know, whatever it is We all have needs in our lives like shelter and clothing and food and clean water And sanitation, kind of the basic stuff But more and more, we have wants, you know, nobody needs a computer Nobody needs a car, but we want those things And by taking the time to examine why you want something You know, you may not like the answer, but it's another way to reflect interiorly You know, frugality is not just about saving money Frugality really is about paying attention to your life and not wasting any of your resources And that includes your resources of your skills and who you are And your home and your belongings and not just your money So there's a lot of layers to this You know, you can take the first layer and just do this because you want to save money Or you can go deeper and really examine your motivations And then it's not so much like a diet that it really becomes part of your life I don't spend a dime without asking myself, why is it I want to buy this thing? And getting an answer that agrees with my values And if I don't get an answer that agrees with my values, I don't buy it Again, the book is "Freedom Through Frugality" How does this compare to being penny pinching or being stingy or being cheap? How does this compare to those kind of states of being? I tend to think that the spendthrift cheap penny pinching comes from a place of fear Rather than a place of expansiveness For me, frugality is about life being bigger and better, richer Whereas being penny pinching and cheap is To me, it's that selfish, you know, like, is it that people are so afraid? It's the kind of person that always rides with their friends Instead of taking their own car and doesn't chip in with gas. To me, it's just not polite because it is a selfish act And the other thing is that you could be cheap and always buy the cheapest thing That costs the least amount of money And that may not be the frugal thing to do because what you have purchased may not last very long Now, I bought a pair of flip flops in a dollar store Now, I was traveling and the weather all of a sudden changed And I thought, ugh, and it was kind of the end of the season, it was September The only pair of flip flops I found was in a dollar store for a dollar Those flip flops were dead in five days I had to throw them out because they were completely through Whereas I bought a three dollar pair of flip flops in a trip shop five years ago And I'm still wearing them So there's a big difference, you know, being frugal is really planning ahead You want something that you purchase that you really want, you want it to last How much of a difference does this make in your life when you started becoming financially intelligent? I've read the book "Your Money of Your Life" and gone through the steps as well So how much of a change was this? Did your spending decreased by 50% or how did this go? Well, for us, we started the program at a different financial place than a lot of people do Because we had a couple of little kids on the farm and our income was $7,000 a year Well, what I learned by starting to examine my money was $7,000 a year income was not enough We needed more money than that because we didn't have that cushion put aside And, you know, every time the car broke down, we lived in the country So you have to really rely on a car, you know, I was just panicking with these two little kids And so, in a way, it was really enlightening to keep track of every penny we spent And to see that even on that very small income, I was still spending all this money on books I mean, there was no reason for me to spend a dime on books, you know, when we have libraries That, well, if they don't have it, they'll get it through interlibrary loan I mean, there wasn't a reason for me to do that, and so even as small an income as we had, there were ways that we could cut back And then over the years, as we kept asking these questions of ourselves, it just became clearer and clearer And so we were happy to spend money on things that were important to us It got to be when our kids were young, well, until the time they left home That we always got season passes at the local ski area because we all love downhill skiing And it was something we did together as a family, and in a way, it felt like a splurge to do that But we got the family pass where you could only, you couldn't go on weekends, but you could go during the middle of the week And it was perfect for us, and we were so happy to spend that money because it really fit with our values So it's an interesting thing because sometimes spending money is exactly what you want to do Because that fills a deep place in you, and other times you don't have to spend a dime to get what you want So what I think you were saying there, though, is that by doing this program, identifying the fat, cutting out the fat of your expenses You still didn't have enough, so part of your decision then was to increase the income stream Exactly, my husband and I, we always both worked part-time when our kids were little so that somebody could be home with them So we began to work more, and we began to ask for more money, you know, my husband worked as a family mediator in private practice And gosh, he pulled his other mediator friends and turns out they were asking for twice as much an hour as he was And he thought, okay, you know, I can increase what I asked for, and that works just fine And so we were able to increase our income and start to put money aside and to be able to get these things for ourselves that we wanted That were important, like the downhill skiing passes, and then eventually we were able to retire That's impressive testimony You've done workshops, you've been part of your money or your life type process, Vicki Robin and Joe Dominguez Does it look to you like for most people, there's a dramatic change that happens? I think so, for no other reason than if you understand your relationship with money I think in our society people are afraid to talk about money, like they're afraid to talk about sex You know, when I was a kid, it was considered rude to ask somebody what their income was Or, you know, what they paid for that new dress, you know, I remember my father lecturing me about that But money is just a fact of life, I mean, just like sex This is just something in our society, we don't live in a barter society, we live in a world with money And especially now with the economic crisis and the Occupy Wall Street It behooves all of us to really understand how the money world works So you're not only getting education about the money in your own life You're getting the education about money in the larger world And then it makes it easier to make decisions A lot of people say to me, well you encourage people to buy local and shop at local stores And not at the big box stores, but the local stores cost so much more money Well, they don't necessarily cost more money And they don't cost more money in terms of building community When I support my local stores, help keeping them in business in my downtown I am supporting my community to know those stores will be there By not going to the big box stores, which I have to drive to Because they're always off the interstate somewhere or in some shopping center somewhere I'm also not driving my car, I'm not contributing to fossil fuels And a lot of the big box stores, they don't treat their employees well I mean, there's just larger moral issues in the world when it comes to buying things And I also, a few weeks ago, I had to buy, needed some generic Tylenol I went to my local independently owned pharmacy to buy some And then I thought, well, you know, the next time I'm up to that big box store pharmacy The next time I go by, I'll check and see what their Tylenol price is It turns out that at my little independent pharmacy, the Tylenol was a dollar less a bottle than at the big box store, I was shocked I really thought it was going to be more or at least comparative But that was an extraordinary difference And the other thing is, is when you're not spending much money You can make the decision to pay a little bit more Because you want to support your neighbors and you want to support your community Because that's part of your moral value system Because we don't buy a lot of stuff, if I have to pay 25 cents or 50 cents more For something to get it at the local stationery store instead of at Staples Then I'm happy to do that So it's clear to me, Jane, that you're valuing some other things in here That frugality is not, it's not the cheap, it's not just the lowest price But it's a mixture of values And you're obviously counting in expenses outside So for instance, if I pollute the air and my neighbor dies Most people don't consider that their own expense Does someone have to be on this same track as you? I mean, maybe some people would say, "I'll never buy local" Because that's not a value, that's important to me Right, and if that's not a value, that's not important to them, that's fine But the important thing is that they discover what their values are In relationship to how they spend their money On my Freedom Through Frugality Facebook page About a month or so ago, I posted, I do frugal tips a few times a week And one of the things that I think is fun for people to do Is to try to only spend the amount of money in a month That they and their family would receive if they were on food stamps And just see if they can do it, you know, see what that experience is like It's not only, maybe you could figure out how to spend less money on food for your family But do also get a sense of what it's like for people who do only have a limited amount of money to spend on food There were some interesting comments back and forth, and one woman commented that Well, she and her family always spend that amount of money, but she used to be on food stamps And she just got into that habit, and so I emailed her, you know, I commented back saying, "Well, tell us how you do it" And she says, "I shop at Walmart, and I only go once a month, and I have a list, and I buy certain things And it's very easy for me, because I've been doing it for so long And who am I to judge her for shopping at Walmart? I won't step foot in a Walmart But if that's what works for her, what's important about the whole forgettable process is to figure out what's important to you And to follow through on your value system You know, we're not all the same, and we're not all going to want the same things And even though I was, you know, I had to sort of stifle myself when she said she shops at Walmart But it also means that her family doesn't spend that much money on food So maybe in the big picture, they are contributing less to climate change Because they're not buying so much manufactured food that uses fossil fuels and transportation or processing or whatever And, you know, I think it'll all come out in the wash if everybody really understands what their values are And how spending their money relates to those values You know, for those listening, it may sound like this is a magic formula You did say earlier, it's a lot of work Some people are not detail oriented or, you know, doing stuff I wrote is deadly boring to them How much does that factor weigh in whether this program is successful or helpful for people? Well, one thing about the way my book is set up is the second half is all just suggestions In different areas of your life, like your home or transportation or food or whatever For people to try out, and so for some linear people they may want to just go through and do this one and this one and this one And somebody else might say, well, you know, I'll just open the book at random and try something and see if I like it and see how it goes And maybe two months later open the book again and try something else You know, different strokes for different folks, you know, that's part of self understanding is how best to do stuff For yourself. When we started the your money or your life program Which includes writing down every penny you spend every month and collating it at the end of the month And looking at the categories and how you spent your money, my husband like threw a fit He's like, I'm not going to do that He's one of those kind of go with the flow kind of people and he was like, are you crazy? And I'm like, well, let's give it a whirl and maybe save your receipts and give them to me And I'll write it down and I'll be in charge of all this writing down part And it took us a while, but now he's really good, you know, all these years later and giving me his receipts And I do the keeping track because I'm a keeping track kind of person and I enjoy that He's happy to have me do that and he trusts me and periodically he wants a report, you know, about how we're doing And so I reported all that to him, but if you're doing it as a family and people are different You know, you get the person, the more linear person who wants to really keep track to do that It may be one of your kids, for people who have kids, they may enjoy doing that My daughter, she began to track her own expenses when she was 16 And she still does as a young adult who's now working and on her own You know, she can't imagine not doing it, like I can't imagine not doing it Whereas my son and my husband, it's the last thing in their minds that they would ever want to do But interestingly, my son who turned 21 recently said to me, "I figured out that if I keep living the same way And have the same income that I do now, I can retire when I'm 40" And I was stunned because he's such a non-linear person that he took the time to figure that out That that was interesting to him, you know, he was really great, he said, "Well, I know, I won't keep the same job And have the same income and have the same expenses, but I thought that was, you know, an interesting thing to figure out So different people will just have to approach this in different ways for whatever works for them I guess I'm going to bring up one more concern, Jane And that is because different people have different emotional buttons, of course And you talked about a few of those I grew up in a family of 12 children, okay? Frugality was a necessary part of the family life And I never found it onerous My wife grew up in a family of three children And I would say that her parents were very careful about what they spent, what meals they made In a way that actually my family didn't feel like it was For me, I take a considerable joy when I find a way to do something that vaults not having to spend more I refer to that as making do, okay? This pair of shoes will work for another year We can make do with that, oh, if I just put a screw in here, that thing will hold together We can make do for a while more, that kind of thing She has, I guess, a visceral experience, I think distaste or some stronger emotion About making do, she speaks derisively of it And mind you, this is a woman who's happy to shop at resale shops And she's very environmentally oriented So this is not in any way a negative statement about the rest of her values But this idea of making do for her, and I'm sure for millions of people in this country They turn and go the other way What do you think about that? How do people get past that? This is a tough one because obviously if people have a real, you know, visceral reaction like that You know, that's a whole other thing that they maybe need to face I'm a big advocate of not using clothes dryers and hanging your laundry up You know, preferably outside in the right weather, but on a clothes rack inside and other weather And that brings up so many issues for a lot of people That hanging your laundry out is a sign of poverty And it's a sign of chapped hands in the winter And I have a good friend, and she and her family live, they don't live a frugal life But they live a modest life, and she said when I was a kid, growing up in a family with a lot of kids And we were very poor, there was always laundry hanging in the living room And I will never live like that You know, she was just really clear, she was just always going to use a dryer period So what can I say? If that's her choice and her decision and she wants to spend the money for the dryer And she understands how much money that is per year, then so be it I mean, she might look at me and say why would I want a downhill ski pass? I mean, that would be the last thing I would want to do So we all have to make those decisions, and for some people, you know, I have another good friend Who's a single woman, and she goes out to eat quite frequently Because she doesn't want a bother to cook for herself She likes, you know, the companionship of going out with friends or even going out on her own But she knows that, she's like, okay, I know I spent a lot of money on eating out But it brings me so much pleasure, that's what I want to do So it's really still a lot about self-awareness That, you know, I'm happy to take the time to hang my laundry out And to plan ahead about that for things that need to be dry Because it takes 24 hours to dry a load unless it's a beautiful day And to live with those consequences and your wife, you know, she may be happier Not to put the screw in the lamp to make it last longer But to go buy a new one But she could go buy a new one in a thrift shop and give yours to the good will With the screw, you could put the screw in it and give it to the good will And they could sell it to somebody else We just all have to find ways to make this work for ourselves For those who just tuned in recently, you're listening to Spirit in Action I'm your host, Mark Helpsmeet This is a Northern Spirit Radio production website NorthernSpiritRadio.org On the site, you can find our archives of the past six and a half years You'll find links to our guests, like our guest today Jane Duynell, author of Freedom Through Frugality You'll find links to her and our other guests And a place to leave comments and we always welcome your comments Let's make this a two-way dialogue Again, we're speaking with Jane Duynell, author of Freedom Through Frugality Spend Less, Have More I guess I want to say, Jane, overall in the book The first section of it, maybe the first third of the book or so You help people establish the framework, the objections, the concerns about Frugality And we've been talking about a couple of them You answer more there, one that I think is very important for many people Is the consideration about kids? If I do this, how will it affect my kids? You want to say a few words about that, Jane? Well, this is one of my favorite questions Because people are concerned about how this will affect their kids And people have a hard time believing that our kids who are now young adults and out on their own Both are frugal and they love being frugal And they really feel the freedom that that brings them In fact, my daughter said to me the other day when I was telling her You know, I'm talking to people on the radio about my book and they just don't believe They don't believe, many hosts don't believe that kids would want to live this way She said, and I quote, "It makes sense, dude, and it makes everything more fun" So, my advice to parents is just like what we were talking about a few minutes before Is you talk to your kids about money, you know, the new computer just doesn't float out of the sky You know, and the carrot doesn't just come from the grocery store You know, we as parents need to educate our children And we need to educate them about money, and sex, which a lot of parents don't want to do But we also need to educate them about where the computer comes from, where the cell phone comes from You know, what it means if they want those designer jeans and those designer sneakers or whatever And also, not only where it comes from in terms of sweatshops or minerals mined in Africa or whatever The moral issues of the things we buy, but also the financial ones, like, okay, in our family You know, our income is this much per year and this is what we spend on housing And this is kind of like the fixed cost, healthcare, transportation, whatever And so, this is the money we have left over for fun For new electronics, for fancy clothes, you know, whatever Let's talk about that and let's make a choice as a family, what we want to do And, you know, some kid may realize, hey, it might be more fun if, you know, mom and dad think there's only $100 or $500 or whatever amount your family would choose To spend a year on clothes, I might rather go shopping at a thrift shop If you've got a kid who's a real clothes horse, because I can get a whole lot more clothes for that amount of money Versus, you know, one pair of designer jeans and one pair of fancy sneakers And then, that's all I get When I was 15, my parents did an amazing thing for me What they had me figure out what I thought my personal expenses for the school year would be You know, previous to that they'd given me an allowance, like many parents do It was a small allowance and it was mainly like for movies or whatever They said, figure out what you're going to need for clothes, for shampoo, for movies, for books For whatever you want to do with your friends You tell us how much you need And we'll open a checking account for you and deposit that amount of money in your checking account And you have to make it last all year And it was one of the smartest things they ever did for me Because I had to learn to decide that I couldn't just willy-nilly spend money And we kind of did the same thing for our kids You know, they just knew, basically, they didn't ask for stuff Unless they really, really wanted it, and they had to justify why they wanted it And we talked about it, it wasn't like they said we want a new computer And we ran out to the computer store and bought one You know, parents need to learn to say no to their kids You know, that's a job of a parent, like you don't want your two-year-old to touch the hot stove You also don't want your 13-year-old to think the family's going to buy any new electronics That happen to come out just because that's what people do We really have to think about those decisions I give an example, which, you know, isn't completely the way our family worked But, you know, do the kids want the new computer Or do the kids want a weak ski vacation in Europe? They get to decide It's just like when you have your two-year-old And you say do you want apple juice or orange juice? Do you want the blue shirt or do you want the red shirt? And you begin to let your child learn how to make decisions And they can do it as teenagers, too, if the whole thing is talked about It sounds to me that for a lot of people, that'll mean that there's an assertiveness training course That they better invest in up front A lot of people have a really hard time saying no And saying no, it's this or this, and then the kid says no, I want both And throws a fit Did you invest in an assertiveness training course? Up front, or did you just come into it with those skills? I prayed I just came into it with those skills We wanted to be very conscious parents And actually, that was a piece of advice given to me when my daughter was a baby Interestingly, by someone in the Quaker meeting that we used to attend She said the only advice I have to give to you as a new parent Is never say no to your child unless you mean it and you plan to follow through And that was the wisest thing that anybody ever said to me So we were careful not to say no, no, no all the time Like I see many parents doing because then the kids don't hear it anymore I just see this so frequently and I imagine many of your listeners do, too That you see the child whining for something and the parent says no The child whines a little louder, the parent says no And the child whines louder and the parent says okay, fine You know, that's just not the way to do it The way to do it is to say no and to stick with it and it's not easy You know, my son went through a phase when he was four or five of throwing incredible tantrums And I imagine a lot of other children do the same thing That was really, really hard to live with But it was also really, really important to say no and mean it Part of the saying no is also the saying yes In terms of giving your child choices And you start training them up when they're little With those simple choices You know, should we bake chocolate chip cookies or oatmeal Raising cookies, and then they learn that making decisions is a fun thing And they just get better at it as they get older Gee, this program is sounding more and more fun Well, it's such a pleasure on the child thing To see how our kids have grown up and they just have embraced this And they've gotten their friends to do this You know, I'm very excited for the next generation That they're going to have a really great life And not be spending their money on this, that and everything else Just because it's the latest thing that came out I think you mentioned that your daughter collaborates with you on some of this Maybe on your Freedom Through Frugality Facebook page Or what other aspects does she work with you on this? She and I write a blog together, though we haven't in a little while Called Common Sense, which is on the Vermont Commons website Vermont Commons is sort of an alternative paper and also has a website Also, she was my graphic designer for my books She's a self-taught graphic designer and that's her profession So she does editing and graphic design And so we always work together like that She's good on the technology thing, I'm kind of stupid about that So she set up the Freedom Through Frugality Facebook page And she set up the website and that kind of thing that I don't know anything about And I tell you, I don't really want to know anything about how to do that So she's my go-to girl for graphic design and technology As well as a fabulous person I want to remind our listeners You can certainly track down all the links to Jane via northernspiritradio.org You can also go there directly You can find her book through her website SpiritOfLifePublishing.com Again, that's SpiritOfLifePublishing.com Again, follow the link to the NorthernSpiritRadio.org You can follow her on Facebook, Freedom Through Frugality is her page there Jane clearly spirit ways with you In all of this, your values are clearly the kind of spiritual basis that I resonate with You mentioned attending Quaker Meeting, but I think you're actually a Unitarian Minister, right? Yes So how does that go? How does this dovetail with your calling? I mean, you were a nurse and doing obviously wonderful work in the world that way What is this flow about and how is this related to Frugality? Well, for me, Frugality, in a way, it's almost a spiritual practice But it's definitely a way where I feel connected to the rest of the earth We are all connected to one another, all of the people and the trees and the plants and the waters and the air You know, my theology is that we are all one living, breathing organism, working together And when I am being frugal, I am being respectful of all the other people on the earth As well as the natural world by not using more than my share You know, there's a wonderful tool called the Ecological Footprint that helps us understand how much space we're taking up on the planet The footprint measures how many resources your home, your food, your transportation Basically the categories that I use in the book to see what kind of impact you're having on the planet And the average American uses 24 acres worth of resources But for all of us to have enough room in the world to live We should all be living on one and a half acres, which is a very, very small amount I mean, my husband and I, by living as frugally as we do, we've gotten ourselves down to nine acres But nine acres is still a far cry from one and a half acres And we figure if we get rid of our car, we can get ourselves down to six acres But even still, it's a struggle And it's one I'm willing to pursue because of my deep belief in how we're all connected to each other And this is the way forward in my mind to help not only with climate change but also with the economic inequality in this country and around the world I'd like if you'd say some more, Jane, about your religious or spiritual identity Did you grow up Unitarian or some other variety? Maybe you didn't even have a religious upbringing When I was a child, I attended a UCC Church, United Church of Christ Irrigational, as we tend to call it in New England I loved church as a child I wanted to be a minister as a teenager It was very, very important to me, and it's funny because my parents didn't go They only went on Christmas and Easter, but church was like two blocks from my house So I tumbled off every Sunday morning by myself It was very, very meaningful to me and a very important part of my life And then my minister committed suicide when I was 18 And that kind of put me off religion for a while Because I thought, oh dear, you know, he was just a wonderful man And he had taken me under his wing and allowed me to speak from the pulpit And do the Bible reading, and it was the first time Not only a female did that, but a teenager female did that And I, and of course the whole congregation was devastated when he killed himself Then I sort of, I put religion on the back burner, but it did always call to me I tried several times being a Quaker I tried going back to another UCC church I tried being a pagan And it wasn't until I attended a Unitarian Universalist church when I was 40 That I said, aha, here it is Because it has a little of everything Because in Unitarian Universalism you build your own theology There is not a creed that everyone has to agree with Within a congregation and within all of the people who are Unitarian Universalists You'll find a multitude of theologies You'll find Christians and Jews and Hindus and Islamist people and pagans And atheists, you know, we got everybody When I was a parish minister, it sometimes made it hard I'd say, oh, you know, what I'd give for a congregation of Christians That I could use a Bible reading every Sunday and that would work But I was always going to say something that was going to annoy somebody Because everyone's theology in the congregation was different But we were able to work in community to allow for that freedom of religious expression For searching, for changing what your theology might be As you explore new ideas And for moving theology forward into the world to make the world a better place I always like to say, we're creating heaven on earth because nobody knew what came next And whether it was heaven or hell or nothing, it didn't really matter what mattered It's we were here now and it was time to create a better world And part of Unitarian Universalism is a principle about understanding And being part of the interdependent web of life That's a pretty strong theme among Unitarian Universalists Currently, a lot of our people are working on the immigration issue For instance, understanding that we as people, whether we're legal Or illegal in this country, we're all connected And for me, as a strong environmentalist, you know, my faith calls me To understand that I'm part of the interdependent web of life Which includes the trees in the squirrel that I'm looking at right now As well as all the people on the other side of the world that I can't see Well, let's get back to the book As I said, my wife and I are finding it very valuable And in particular, we're using the last half or two thirds of the book To help us energize our efforts at frugality That portion of freedom through frugality talks about all kinds of specific ideas I'm just amazed at the number of ideas and suggestions and possibilities That you've put into each of these sections Each paragraph would have been multiple chapters by a person who's less concise than you Maybe it's because you're so frugal with words Let's talk about some of these specific chapters or sections Do you have any particular favorites, Jane? Let's just talk about how the nuts and bolts of this book work We do have all these different categories in the book And, you know, people may think, oh, you know, yeah, my house, food, whatever You know, that's sort of boring and mundane I like to talk about fun You know, how can we have fun without spending a lot of money? You know, so many people just go out and buy entertainment When there are so many things we can do for fun That either cost nothing or cost very little You know, one of the things my husband and I love to do together Is to pick a novel that we both want to read And we read it out loud to each other We get the novel out of the library And we spend an hour every evening or morning reading And it's so much fun to read a novel at the same time You know, with another person, because then you can talk about it And, you know, I was reading this morning And I started crying over something the character said You know, it's just, in a way, it's a very intimate experience Another way we like to have fun is by volunteering For our community theater organization We get to go to all the plays for free by being an usher And sweeping up afterwards, picking up the programs People leave on the floor It's a great way, you know, to get to meet the actors And the directors and see how they do the stage sets And you get to go to the plays for free I mean, you get to be part of a community It's a great thing to do So I encourage people to really think about how the money they spend for entertainment And how maybe they could find a way to have fun without doing that You know, board games, card games, going for walks, playing musical instruments There are a lot of sports that don't cost a lot of money We love to play disc golf Our kids turned us on to this sport Which is throwing a frisbee into a basket And it's set up like a traditional golf course And so you spend a couple hours out in the fresh air Walking around, you know, getting a little exercise Hanging out with other people, improving your skill You know, it's a great thing to do There's just, you know, our world is full of so many fun things to do You don't have to sit at home in front of the TV Or the computer to entertain yourself I love football, for example Which is a strange thing We were living in New Orleans Volunteering there at the time they were on the Super Bowl So we took up, everybody was so excited in the city We took up listening to the games on the radio Because we don't have a television, but we do have a radio And we got completely hooked on football Which is the strangest thing I mean, I grew up with brothers and a father So I certainly knew about football when I was a kid But I had never really paid much attention to it Well now that we're in Vermont and not in New Orleans You know, we can't get the game on the radio We've been going to our local sports bar on Sunday afternoon So watch football and, you know, we get a beer And we sit there for a couple hours, watch the game Turns out there's about a half a dozen other people here in Montpelier Who are fans of the New Orleans Saints And we've met these new people and we sit around and cheer together While everyone else is in the bar watching the Patriots Or the New York Giants or something It's a fabulous experience and completely worth the eight or ten bucks We spend every week doing this You know, maybe our cable bill wouldn't even be that much But to me, it's way much more fun To just go out and be part of the world So there's a lot of creative ways out there to have fun Without spending a lot of money You also address the idea of taking vacations And I think you've got some really piercing thought that goes into this People vacating their lives Do you want to share a few of those thoughts? Oh, yeah, I've never really understood that vacation thing Well, I can't say that, really, when I was single and working as a registered nurse I looked forward to my vacations partly because I was a head nurse at the time My job was stressful and I wanted to get the heck out of town But it was also, I do love to travel and see new things and whatever So what I ask people to think about is When they have their week or two or have much time off of work To not think of it as a vacation, but think of it as a holiday You know, a holy time that you have this time now, this week, this two weeks Where you can spend relaxing, you can spend with your family So how is it that you want to do that? Do you really want to go on a cruise or do you really want to fork out, you know, $5,000 to sit on a beach in Hawaii? Or maybe I have a friend who, his vacations, he always spent at home He said I never have enough time in my garden, I never have enough time to read books He said I am staying put when I'm on vacation because that's what's important to me So this is another thing for people to think about About how they would like to spend their time when they're not working And when you have the time off from work, you have an extended time It's not just a day off here or a weekend there, you can really do something bigger of what's important to you But I also encourage people to take, when they're time off, look at their own area You know, wherever we live, tourists come to our area for some reason You know, maybe because of the cultural life, certainly in Vermont, it's because of the physical beauty And other parts of the world could be a multitude of different things So before you traipse around further afield, see what it is in your own neck of the woods you've never been to You know, there may be museums, there may be cultural activities There may be hikes that you would love to go on, lakes to swim in, rivers to kayak, you know, whatever is important to you You know, why go do that somewhere else when you could do that at home? I guess I have to second your comment that Vermont is such a beautiful state I had the privilege of spending a couple months there when I was being trained to go on the Peace Corps I was down near Brattleboro, Putney area, quite a beautiful state And there's another thing about Vermont in a number of ways They've invested both environment and they've invested in their own economy in a way When you refer to the desire to invest in your local business It seems to me that Vermont is a step ahead of the rest of the nation with that Yeah, I'd like to think so, it is sort of a privilege to live here, isn't it? Especially after spending time in New Orleans and seeing how corrupt the state of Louisiana can be over certain things Yeah, we're very lucky in Vermont and the other thing that we're investing in in the moment is the legislature passed a bill last year To institute single payer healthcare in Vermont for everyone That's in the process now of a committee figuring out exactly how to do that But the plan is for that to be implemented by 2014, which will be very, very exciting We have to get a waiver from the federal government to not require us to be part of the Obamacare plan But to be able to go our own way and I think it's a place that other states could be able to move toward it Well, it's very exciting That certainly is one of those big issues, how do you pay for medical care? And I think you address a bit of that in the book as well I would love to because this is a real bugger move for people because we don't have a single payer healthcare system So many people stay in jobs simply because they have healthcare Other people are afraid to move to a different job because the healthcare plan may change We took a very radical step, we don't have health insurance We mostly have not had health insurance Vermont has a program that covers children under 18 in lower income families And so when our kids were younger, we did qualify for that and so they were covered But we also don't run to the doctor for every little thing And partly is because we have to pay for it, but also because we've learned what you can take care of at home Versus what really does require the services of a professional And many people run to the doctor when they have a cold or the flu Some very simple things that you can take care of at home And so part of frugality and part of paying attention and being resourceful Is learning what things to do at home to care for yourself and your family What things are probably time limited What the symptoms that your particular physician says Oh yes, definitely call me if you have a fever over 103 or whatever your physician's particular rules Or suggestions are so asked We've certainly had our share of broken bones and people needing stitches And that kind of thing which really is a wonderful thing that our health care system is for And I've been happy to pay a doctor to do that kind of thing The important thing for people to know who may not have health insurance Is that hospitals are required to negotiate with you I've been able to talk them down to taking 25% off the price Because hospitals and doctors jack up their prices This is all part of the crisis and the insurance companies and the whole thing Because they have to have so many staff to deal with the billing and all that kind of stuff So they are really happy to negotiate with you My husband and daughter had a terrible accident several years ago Right when she was too old to get the Vermont health care for children unfortunately She broke both of her wrists and needed elbow surgery to replace a tendon And my husband broke his hand, they fell from scaffolding that collapsed That was a tough time because the dollar bill signs were going off inside my head But we explained everywhere that we didn't have health insurance So please don't just automatically do stuff without asking us I was able to negotiate the price with the hospital And by the time it was all said and done, we had paid less for all of that Than we would have if we had purchased health insurance for our family for that year That's a major statement, but it did take some assertiveness I think maybe you need to recommend that people take assertiveness training as part of getting ready for this Well and it also helped that I wasn't our end So I did have fair amount of knowledge I really recommend people take first aid classes or whatever your local community college or hospital It might offer everybody should know basic first aid and CPR and all that kind of stuff And they should all read the book freedom through frugality Spend less have more by Jane Dwyno It is a wonderful book Jane I think that if people pick it up and read it, they'll find that out Where can they get the book? They can't get it at borders They've closed under because they weren't doing good financing, they weren't being frugal enough They can find it by going to your website spiritoflifepublishing.com Follow the link to that site from northernspiritradio.org You've got so much good ministry you're doing through this book Jane I really appreciate it so much and I appreciate you spending time today with us here for Spirit in Action Thanks so much for having me Today's Spirit in Action guest was author, UU minister and frugal person Jane Dwyno See you next week for Spirit in Action The theme music for this program is turning of the world performed by Sarah Thompson This Spirit in Action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website northernspiritradio.org Thank you for listening I am your host Mark Helpsmeet and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light This is Spirit in Action With every voice, with every song We will move this world along With every voice, with every song We will move this world along And our lives will feel the echo of our healing (upbeat music)