Spirit in Action
Welcoming LGBT and the Other - Equality Wisconsin Voices of Faith Project
Lizzi Dahlk, Voices of Faith Coordinator of Equality Wisconsin, works to unite people of faith in making Wisconsin a more welcoming & just place for LGBT folks and all folks who get treated as "Other". Today she's joined by David Huber of Plymouth UCC and Scott Miller of First Lutheran Church, both in Eau Claire.
- Broadcast on:
- 25 Sep 2011
- Audio Format:
- other
[music] Let us sing this song for the healing of the world That we may hear as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along And our lives will feel the echo of our healing [music] Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives Of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, Creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service Hoping to inspire and encourage you to sync deep roots and produce sacred food in your own life. Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world That we may dream as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along We'll be speaking to three people for today's Spirit in Action program Folks brought together for consideration of the voices of faith project of Equality Wisconsin. Lizzie Dahlke is coordinator of the project Looking to make Wisconsin a more welcoming and just place for LGBT folks And really, all the others of our society struggling to be accorded fair and equal treatment. David Huber and Scott Miller are pastors of two Eau Claire churches Plymouth, UCC, and First Lutheran respectively Both places where LGBT folks can look forward to finding love and acceptance We go now to Plymouth, UCC To visit with Lizzie Dahlke, David Huber, and Scott Miller about Equality Wisconsin Lizzie, you made the long drive all the way up from I think Milwaukee for Equality Wisconsin Why don't you just start us off for Spirit in Action talking about the origins of Equality Wisconsin What your purpose, what your history is Equality Wisconsin has been around since probably 2002 Originally, we were housed in the Community Center, LGBT Community Center in Milwaukee And now we are a separate organization We are an advocate for the LGBT community And we are always looking for allies for the LGBT community We do two things generally We educate people about the issues that face the LGBT community And we also pay close attention to the politics around the issues So when, say, the anti-gay marriage amendment was being floated around Was that an '06 maybe? I can't remember exactly when that was We were very active in educating people about gay families What the prejudices, what the falsehoods were Unfortunately, we lost that battle But we are constantly interested in the political aspects of equal rights You said, Lizzie, that you're interested in the political aspects But I think this is a 501(c)(3) How does that work together? Can a 501(c)(3) be concerned about political stuff? Equality Wisconsin has both a C4 and a C3 The C3, which means you can donate to this organization and have it be text deductible The most important project on that side of our program is Voices of Faith Which is a coalition of clergy around the state who support LGBT issues And so what brings you from all the way in the south? It's a beautiful drive, actually And my car goes here automatically since I have a daughter who lives in Minneapolis And so when I get to Eau Claire, I always say, "Oh, I'm almost there" I came up to meet with clergy here in the area to see what their interest was In becoming open and welcoming to their LGBT communities And as it turns out, they are all well along And that journey toward becoming affirming to their LGBT members Those who are out in the congregation obviously feel safe enough to be out And that's always really encouraging I think that Voices of Faith Project, which is well developed in a strong coalition In the southeastern part of the state has benefited a lot The churches feel like they have a strong voice now On both political issues and on social justice issues When it comes to speaking out and having an alternative message To what we think of as the religious right Those letters roll off your tongue so easily LGBT And we know, you know, lesbian, gay, bi, and trans First of all, how many years did it take you to be able to say that as fluently as you did? And number two, originally when these issues were formulated It was lesbian and gays And then it moved to include bi and trans Can you talk about that transformation to reach out to a larger community And what's that about? Actually, people on the right, I think perhaps Fear that, well, if we give them an inch, they'll take a mile And so if we give them lesbian and gays, they'll include bi and trans I think there is a fear that more and more actions are going to become permissible And that that might threaten moral structures Well, personally, I think from the time I was in grade school I questioned my gender Gender identity was always an issue for me And the older I got, the more I realized that I was much more comfortable with girls and than women And I was much more sexually attracted to women So for me, sexuality and gender, gender identity don't always go hand in hand So if I say lesbian and gay, I'm referring to women who are sexually attracted to women And men who are sexually attracted to men who want that kind of long term relationship When I say bisexual, I think we all understand that That someone who is comfortable and attracted to both sexes When it comes to having relationships Transgender is probably the scariest part of those letters I think they are the most misunderstood and the most feared group of people And partly I think that's because we're uncomfortable if we don't know who we're talking to There have been times when people have felt betrayed because they assumed they were talking to a woman And it turned out that they were talking to someone who used to be a man And they felt betrayed, they felt they had been tricked That's a very concrete way of looking at what it's like to transition from male identity to female identity or vice versa But there are other ways that we make assumptions about people and then realize that we're wrong And it's always very disturbing if we've made the wrong assumption Let me tell you an amusing little story, perhaps you'll find it amusing When my child was born 24 years ago, we didn't know what gender this child was going to come out And we chose a name that was going to be good for either Chris Leslie And so we were right in either case Out came our child, so when people asked, "Well, how did the birth go? How's your baby?" And we'd say, "Oh, it went great, you know, eight pounds, six ounces, 21 inches, and it was only five hours of labor" And Chris is great, and they said, "But you didn't say whether it's a boy or a girl" And they said, "If you want to know if this is a boy or a girl, you come change a diaper" That's a very good story, actually Yeah, I must say that the idea that we're going to determine this child's destiny By deciding what gender it is is a little disturbing If I can come back a little bit to your past about it You're sorting out, as a young girl, you're aware you're attracted more towards females I guess you've got this label of lesbian maybe, or maybe it was queer I don't know what, at that point, what you were labeled How did that play out for you? Were you able to be honest about who you are with your family and school, friends? How did that work out? And how does that compare to what we have today? I would say it was not until I was in my early 40s That I could be totally honest with who I was I actually was married when I was pretty young And I have two daughters from that relationship And I don't think it was until I joined the women's movement or was swept up in it And I also became very active politically around all sorts of justice issues I grew up during the civil rights movement All of those issues affected me greatly and I was always attracted to being part of them My own personal coming out as a lesbian was more difficult I think because there were relationships that I was so afraid of jeopardizing Both in my family and in my close knit community I also wasn't able to do that until I became part of the women's community Many years ago I worked in alternative health care centers where lesbians were welcome And I worked in the battered women's movement Which has a strong component, a background of lesbian mothers who founded that organization I mean mother as in four mothers So actually I would say at this point in my life Being a lesbian is a very small part of my identity That I'm most interested in as equality and justice for everyone And to that I can say amen It is what we need and we need more of And labels often detract from that Again equality Wisconsin and the Voices of Faith Project are attempting to provide that If you had had something like Equality Wisconsin working to provide safe space to you Could you have accepted yourself more fully earlier? Of course there's trade-offs to any of these transitions because where do your two daughters come into that And the acceptance of that is societally we've changed so much over the last 30-40 years So it's hard to look back and to project in your reverse crystal ball what would have happened But how could equality Wisconsin Voices of Faith been there for you as a young person? Having grown up in a church and feeling that that community was really important to me It would have been nice if there had been some way for me to identify myself more openly in that space I'm not sure if that would be possible now for anyone at that age I think one's identity especially as a teenager and a preteen Especially if you're not sure of what your identity is I think that's a pretty precarious place to be I actually feel like I don't think I would want to change my life experience at all If I could go back and change it I don't think I would I think the journey that I have been on has been really challenging but also really fruitful I feel really grateful for all the experiences that I've had Both as part of the straight community and the LGBT community You mentioned as the religious community that you were part of Could you say a little bit about that and how that played into your attitudes Your attitudes about yourself or about life in general about fitting in? I think looking back I was a member of a congregation that was fairly open and liberal And certainly that was part of my father's social take on the Bible I think I learned a lot from him in terms of social justice as a person of faith So growing up in that atmosphere had a big effect on me that's for sure I grew up in First Baptist Church in Madison, Wisconsin which is a member of the American Baptist Assembly So that was actually a stereotype I soon discovered that if I had told people that I went to a Baptist Church They assumed that I didn't smoke, I didn't drink, I didn't play cards, I didn't dance I didn't do anything, so I didn't realize that were actually different Baptists around the world But growing up in that environment was very nurturing for me And I think it was the basis of my desire to be able to bring my whole self to that church To any group, to my school, to any table, I wanted to be able to be exactly who I was And I wanted that so much for everybody I think I'd like to bring David Huber into the conversation here now He's pastor here in Eau Claire, Wisconsin at Plymouth, UCC, Plymouth United Church of Christ David, you were instrumental in getting Lizzie Dahlk up here to visit with us today Why did you do that? What was motivating you? Why is this an issue that matters in your life or in your congregation? Lizzie first contacted me, I don't know, four months ago, to ask if I would help to organize Or just give her the names and contacts of some other clergy and churches here in town That she might be able to then get together and come up and have a conversation with To get a group going together up in Northwest Wisconsin Like they've had down in Milwaukee and Madison area to try to do some advocacy work for LGBT, folk and social justice work In that regard, and to do that with religious leaders, people of faith, to do it from a faith perspective And to be a counter voice to some of the nasty noise that is so prevalent To say to people that no, not all Christians are Fred Phelps or these other anti-gay, anti-homosexual kind of people Personally why this is an issue for me, a couple of reasons, one I know a number of gay and lesbian folks That have come to know and love over the years and heard their stories of growing up in churches That they weren't allowed to be lesbian or gay or were hurt in some way by their church And felt therefore hurt by God or hated by God or rejected by God And left in an awful spiritual state because of that I met a number of people in seminary who were, say, Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, whatever Who really wanted to serve in that denomination but had an awful time getting approval And quite a few of them ended up going to the United Church of Christ Because we've been ordaining, lesbian and gay folk for a long time And there's a certain sadness, I mean it's great that they found a place where they fit in But some sadness that they couldn't fit in, in the church that they grew up in, the church that they knew, and that they loved And so hearing those stories has helped me be more committed to being an advocate for them and helping them out And then also I think even going back to junior high, I had a wonderful class in my church Talking about sexuality, learning about sexuality as a faith expression, a religious expression And in that we learned that being a homosexual is okay, not anything to be afraid of So I had that in my church upbringing and I've never really understood the anti-gay sentiment It's just always seemed so foreign and bizarre to me that anyone would feel weird around a gay person or feel like they need to reject them in some way In ways that I can, in so many ways, kind of understand the way people might be racist or culturalist or have some other issues But it's just never understood why people would be anti-gay Well, you went to seminary and certainly somewhere along the way you read Leviticus And you read the passages that get trundled out to say why gays are not acceptable Why maybe they're supposed to be killed or whatever Now, of course, I realize that there are innumerable laws, including some very strange laws in Leviticus Those don't carry any power or conviction for you How do you deal with it in terms of talking about it from the Bible? Do you say that the Bible doesn't talk about homosexuality or what is the thing that allows you to preach from the pulpit That we love and accept that we're fully open and affirming Well, as you say, there's a lot of Leviticus that we don't follow We're in clothing made out of different kinds of fabrics or eating shellfish or touching women who are menstruating Or sitting on a chair that a menstruating woman has sat on There's just a whole bunch of stuff that we don't follow and don't listen to You can't just necessarily reject any part of the scripture out of hand But if we look at the entire scriptural narrative And especially add in what Jesus talked about And really never talked about sexuality at all Certainly never talked about homosexuality And much that is in scripture that one could say Kind of talks about homosexuality is really talking about unequal relationships It's not so much just about the act of gay sex But temple prostitution or the Greek culture That a lot of man boy sex kind of stuff going on and that seems to be more of what Paul is speaking out against in his words So it's really about people who aren't in a loving relationship And certainly I think the Bible very much talks of sexual relationships As being something that should be done in the context of love and equality And doesn't seem to specifically single out any particular kind of sexuality Whether it's male and female or male male Or as so many of the Bible people are male and female and female and female And female and female and female You know it's polygamous relationships, concubines and that's all over the place And the whole biblical narrative and especially Jesus' ministry was about Including the people on the outside Including the people who've been excluded The people who've been marginalized The poor, the widows, the orphans The lepers, the sick, whoever And I think the continuation of that ministry is to include really all people Regardless of sexuality or regardless of their financial status or education Any of that, the overarching theme of the Bible is love God's love for all of creation And that we are all made in God's image We all have a right to exist and all of creation has a right to exist David, how do you operationalize that? How do you implement that? How does that play out in the life of Plymouth UCC? I mean the United Church of Christ overall I believe is open and affirming What does that mean in terms of the life of the church? And does that mean that the congregation becomes largely gay and lesbian or something What happens to a congregation when you do that? Because I think some people assume that if you become open and affirming You open the floodgate that all of a sudden everybody's going to change Certainly for some UCC churches, I'm sure the gay population increased After they became open and affirming As gay people realized, oh maybe there is a place for me In God's world And in God's realm Operationally how it functions is I mean our church hasn't changed how it functions Since it became open and affirming Our vote to be open and affirming was really an affirmation that we had already been Operationally open and affirming for the last 15, 20, 30, whatever years It wasn't like something new, like okay now starting now we're going to be this It was us saying wow we've been this for a long time Let's declare it I imagine there are operational details that you just take for granted Marriages, births, new people coming through the door Is it okay to talk to people about Oh you're gay or I can see your partners coming together I don't know if that's helpful or unhelpful to identify or invite forth Because one of the things that is so soul-deadening to many people Is having to hide part of themselves Is there a way that you effectively reach out to say All of you is welcome here And so you can talk about it if this is your partner or whatever Certainly I can speak for the congregation here They are very welcoming We've had a number of gay and lesbian people That have come through our doors, been part of the congregation And treated like anyone else This congregation has a high respect and a high skill in hospitality And welcoming, not asking people to hide who they are And I hope in my preaching And as I'm working with committees and working with the people of this church That I am also continuing to talk about The importance of being open to anyone who comes through these doors And to look at them as a gift sent by God That they should be brought into this fellowship in this community I guess there's one more piece of how this gets lived out That I'd like to have you address Having known you for some time now David I've heard you say that the pulpit is really not the place for talking about politics And yet this is an issue that does get politicized frequently Certainly there was 2006 The successful effort to declare one man one woman is what marriage is in the state, etc So sometimes it is a political issue Is this something that you can talk from the pulpit about Or would that be politicizing things? When I talk about when I'm doing it the right way And when I'm being faithful to my call Whatever I talk about from the pulpit I'm talking about From a biblical or theological or Christian perspective Even if it's something that may affect our political life Because also in a sense everything and anything that we talk about From the Bible is also political in some way To say Jesus is Lord is an incredibly political statement To say that it's not Caesar is not the Lord Or the President is not the Lord or the Governor or whoever Anything is political in a sense So I would shy away from saying Oh you should vote this way on something Or politically we need to do such and such But I can say the scriptural witness is this And certainly that we as a congregation Should be inclusive of all people And then maybe hopefully that will translate out And people will think about that When they're going into the voting booth Of all of the things that they've learned at church And vote in some way that is coherent with their faith And with their faith journey that it's not a separate act So it's a bit of a tight wire Sometimes trying that to be specifically political While knowing that also everything I'm talking about Has some political fallout Or some political aspect to it I want to bring in now Scott Miller Your pastor at First Lutheran here in Eau Claire An ELCA affiliated church You attended this first conversation With Equality Wisconsin What brought you here Scott? Well you know I think we all have a personal connection In one way or the other You know my personal connection to this issue Has to do with one of my children Who has come out to us several years ago As being gay So I'm painfully aware of What still is sort of the lingering issues That some people bring up That is an attempt to kind of Single them out as somehow the angst or cause Of all of our issues and problems in the world And so I want to be a part of that voice That says that perhaps we need to have a different conversation here Is that something you can discuss in person with your church? Is that something you can mention in sermons? Or is this something that just has to be in the side? There are times when I have talked about the scripture From the standpoint of we as Lutherans who understand You know scripture is the spoken word It is the written word But it is also a live word of Christ That the Bible isn't something frozen in a block of ice Like a prehistoric dinosaur So what I talk about especially as Paul talks about That radical inclusivity When he talks about no Jew or Greek slave Or free male or female You know we could extend that conversation To say no black or white or brown or yellow No gay or straight That those distinctions are gone In the kingdom So there is a radical inclusivity that is in scripture Even Jesus himself practiced that radical inclusivity By including those on the margins Into the kingdom While really being somewhat harsh on the religious people Who sort of thought they deserved that position of prominence in the kingdom And so that's you know I do have those opportunities to talk about it It is not my agenda I don't push it I don't find a myriad of ways to talk about it When the text fits, yeah I do talk about it Obviously this has been a big year Scott for the ELCA There was a change that was made nationally Which has certainly attracted a lot of ire Or perhaps support from other quarters Can you talk about what that change was And how it's operationalized here at the local level in Eau Claire? Well I think the first thing we have to understand That this is not a new issue The ordination of people in committed same-sex relationships Or nor is it an issue which we can look at in singularity And I think that's a part of the problem The ELCA and its predecessor bodies Have been you know sort of fighting a battle for a very long time And that battle has at its very essence And core and understanding of Lutheranism That we have called in this country for a number of years The sort of Lutheran free movement This belief in absolute complete congregational autonomy And it's not much different I think than the political debate in our country at this time Between those who are you know fighting for the issue of states rights As over against you know to form a more perfect union So this battle has been fought many times over And over many different issues This is just the most current issue And you know we fought this in the early 70s over the ordination of women This is simply the latest manifestation of it And what we as you know sort of cartoon Lutherans kind of forget We forget our own theology And as I talked about the word that we follow is not just the written word But it's the proclaimed word And we tend to want to become biblicists or worship the Bible We are not as a denomination nor has Lutheranism ever been A Bible-centered denomination We are a Christ-centered denomination And sometimes you know we become sort of Idol-worshippers of particular pieces of scripture And we for some reason want to have battles over those So this is just the latest issue that has caused people to want to Kind of revert to that sort of absolute congregational autonomy In other words nobody's going to tell me what I can do And that's kind of what's being played out here Is that you know old Lutheran free movement It's just a different subject this time And what is the specific change that happened? But this latest one was that you know congregations who want to call People who are in committed same sexual relationships can do that Which would seem to me to be a congregational autonomy issue But those who are most rigorous against this You know are also those who proclaim to want to have You know it's a little bit like the debate in our own culture About certain political groups who want to know the government out of our lives Except when it comes to issues like gay marriage or abortion You know then they want the government there with both feet And that's kind of what you got going on here Is you've got people who just said this is the latest rallying cry And they fall out of that As you know I have people left my congregation yes We have watched unfortunately in the public light Of another ELC a congregation in town over this issue Could you nail down for me what the specific wording change was? Well what was actually decided the actual amendment that was adopted By a two-thirds majority 771 yes Two hundred and thirty no Was resolved that in the implementation of any resolution on ministry policies The ELCA committed self To bear one another's burdens to love the neighbor To respect the bound conscience of all And be it resolved that the ELCA commit self To finding a way for people in such publicly accountable Lifelong monogamous same gender relations To serve as roster leaders in the church That is the actual resolution that was adopted It says lifelong monogamous same gender relationships Now of course the question that gets vague here Is you know what does that mean? And I think they are in line with a bit of a problem For us as Lutherans are I think for anybody Because there is a publicly you know the church acting As a public agent of the state when it comes to marriage And if we talk about you know what is the lifelong committed monogamous relationship? Well that's a great question to ask not just homosexual people But heterosexual people just because two people are married Doesn't mean it's publicly accountable lifelong monogamous And so it does kind of beg the question what is committed relationship mean And again I think that the conversation is probably worth having I'm not sure that you know to simply put it in one category or another And say well you know we're not going to talk about this When it comes to heterosexual people where the divorce rate still seems to be around 50% But you know only focus it on one particular group of people Scott could you give me a little bit more on your background? You mentioned you had the issue with your son or I put it issue It's not an issue it's it's just a part of being a parent But your son identifies as gay and I assume this stretched you What was your background that brought you into it? Were you ELCA? Were you always open and affirming? Or has this been a journey for you too? Well I think my own journey is you know I grew up in a rather naive family In the middle of North Dakota And I don't know that there was any particular sort of world view Other than my father was a pretty staunch Democratic farm league guy But I became sort of interested in politics And I went to college because there was a draft on Ended up getting drafted anyway And spent a number of years in the military Which was sort of one of those experiences for me That you know as you start to see the rest of the world And you start to have sort of those parochial kind of viewpoints That you grew up with kind of challenged And I remember there were incidences when I was in the military There were kind of one of those all my moments As you saw racism and sexism really on full display But I graduated from college with a major in psychology And it was actually going to pursue that when I got out And ended up going back to seminary for a wide variety of reasons But so I think in my sort of DNA hard wiring I have been always a more progressive thinker I think seminary was a way again of sort of Stretching me in different directions As I had opportunities to enter into conversations With people that seminary who lived all over the world But I spent a long time at the University of Minnesota Also doing some postgraduate studies In the area of human sexuality And so it was you know again in those kinds of encounters That you start to have your sort of parochial mindset kind of challenged And so when my son came out and finally said he was gay I mean it wasn't a surprise to me And what was interesting however was some of his friends' responses Because his friends were certain that because I was a Christian minister That I would throw him out of the house And that was you know for me I think the biggest sort of shock Was that someone would throw their own biological child out Because of this And so that for me was one of those kind of moments Where you know that's the viewpoint The vast majority of people have of Christian Is that somehow you know I would just discard someone like you know trash That was the piece for me that was probably the most difficult to deal with Where did these people get that viewpoint? And Scott this change that happened on the national level For the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America for the ELCA What does it really mean here in Eau Claire Wisconsin? I mean last year two years ago is there anything different? Obviously there's been a Bruja have sorts here But what does it mean that you do differently? Are gay people welcomed into the congregation? Were they last year? Is there a change that way? Well and I think that's the great question I mean that really is What has changed for any local congregation? Absolutely nothing Those congregations that were open and affirming to all people Regardless of race, color, creed, ethnicity, sexual orientation Whatever are also the congregations after this decision That are open and welcoming Those congregations who see this as an abomination Are the same ones today who see this as an abomination I mean that's kind of the fat part here That really nothing has changed And nothing will change Local congregations will still determine what Burke Course Forward will be And I think pastoral leadership means something I think in this issue And that can we lead our congregations into a more Kind of open and affirming of the wide variety and diversity of this God's creation Or do we simply kind of batten down the hatches? And I mean you and I are both aware that Unfortunately in our culture The single most segregated moment is Sunday morning As people tend to want to gather in like-minded groups And that's not going to change As I have sort of in some way to try to deal with this will be here I've said You know there's not tens of thousands of gay people Saying gosh I can't wait to get into a Lutheran church I mean it's not going to happen And that's what I kind of find a little strange When I have conversations with those churches and denominations And clergy who are rapidly anti-gay Is that they want to tell me well but we welcome all people And I had an interesting conversation with a young man As I was talking to him he was one of my older sons friends My older son is now in the Marine Corps And I said you know do you go to church? He said well yeah I said well why do you go? He says well because my parents make me I said well when you graduate from high school Will you go to this church? He was absolutely not And I said well why not? He says well because every Sunday the pastor stands up there and says Here's our church and all people are welcome He said I know that's not true He says unless you look like us and act like us and think like us You're not welcome here And I think you know that sort of needs to be a wake up call for religious people There's really not a culture out there waiting for us to come around There's a culture out there who's already moved on It's interesting to me that if you read you know any of the studies that have done There was a wonderful study done a few years back by the Barn Institute The vast majority of the people in our culture under the age of 40 This is not an issue It simply is not the culture has moved on And it's only we in the church who think that this is important I think I want to come back to you Lizzie One of the things that I'm aware of as the background to this issue about dealing with equality Wisconsin and voices of faith Is that Wisconsin is something of a battleground state this past year There have been issues that are proposed in the budget that strongly affect lesbians and gays And you know they affect everyone We've all in one way or another been affected by the turmoil and by the proposals And by the things that have been enacted So living functioning here in a battleground state where the majority of both houses of our Congress And the governor have evidently been willing to make decisions that are unpopular with the other 49% How has this been for you working in this? Is this a safe haven down in the southeastern Wisconsin where you're in the majority But maybe when you get to the rural areas where you're reaching out to right now today That's going into scary territory And when you go to Madison is this a welcoming? Is Madison is the state capital a welcoming place to you these days? That's a very challenging question for me It takes my mind all sorts of places There's nothing like the opposition coming out very strong and heavy handed to unite the opposite force So in my experience especially in the last five years Working on the issue of LGBT rights Is that the most important thing to keep in mind is coalitions are the way to go So in Milwaukee there's a large Latino/Latina community And their main issue or one of their main issues is immigration rights So we have worked very closely with that community because we identify so much with their inequality Their inability to get ahead based on assumptions made about them And of course there is a Latino/Latina LGBT community also So going back and forth between these two groups and sharing our concerns about each other's issues Has really been a wonderful experience for me that has taught me that as we so easily spout Where all God's children you really have to live with all of God's children To really understand that that's exactly right The other thing that I think is really important is from a faith point of view To know that there are alternative voices within the faith community That can speak out for people who are outside Is so important to me If I want to identify with the faith community which I do strongly in many ways I want to know that my voice is being heard And when I think about David and his work and his congregation I think it says a lot to I like your definition of what power is and what makes it political What makes the Bible political because there are all those power issues And if he can in his church affirm the fact that two women or two men and their children are a family And they are identified that way That's just a huge step to acknowledge that that indeed is a family The voices of faith project is specifically reaching out to congregations to religious folks Bringing together to lift up their voice You grew up American Baptist at the First Baptist Church there in Madison What's your religious affiliation? Do you get strength from those roots And how do you get that strength and affirmation these days? I'm not at this point I'm not identified with any particular congregation Though I have ties to the Milwaukee Friends meeting And I attend there occasionally And my office is actually in Plymouth Church in Milwaukee And I occasionally go to their events and their services I have worked with two Jewish congregations in the Milwaukee area And feel totally comfortable and welcome there What speaks to me most, whether it's a faith community or not Is are the people there? Can I tell that from their faith they are reaching out to everybody? What does it mean to be a person of faith and at the same time an ally to someone who is on the outside? And if I can feel that when I'm in a church or in a synagogue in a mosque Then I'm comfortable and I'm spiritually fed by that If you just tuned in, you're listening to Spirit in Action I'm your host Mark Helps Meat of this Northern Spirit Radio Production That website is NorthernSpiritRadio.org And you can come to our website, NorthernSpiritRadio.org And you'll find all of our programs of the last six years You can listen to them and download them And you can find links to our guests And you can post comments Please let us hear from you We love to make this communication two-way Again, we're speaking with Lizzie Dahlk who is of Equality Wisconsin Also with the Voices of Faith Project She's up visiting Eau Claire Wisconsin where we're situated But this is, I think, an issue that's going on across the country We're one microcosm of a macrocosm on this issue So I thought it was valuable to listen to Lizzie And one of the things I've been wondering, Lizzie, is what kind of reception you're getting Are you going to other areas of the state? Are you getting positive reception there? Is it your sense that across Wisconsin, both urban and rural, that there's a receptive year That there's the numbers or the support, the heart, the spirit is there Or does it look like a dark time? I would say that no matter where I go, if we're talking about congregations There is always someone there who is welcoming Of course, I don't choose the most challenging congregations I tend to go to congregations that might already have a reputation of being somewhat progressive In terms of social issues If I think about rural and city, I think it's equally so in both places People are people, no matter whether they live in a large city or in a smaller town or in a suburb I don't see any difference there, and I don't think of this as necessarily a dark time I do think the pendulum in my lifetime, which is getting long The pendulum has swung back and forth And I do think this time the pendulum has swung so far to one side That it will take a much longer time for us to find the middle ground again But I don't think it's a dark time You know, Scott, I asked Lizzie if she thought it was a dark time in Wisconsin With all the mess going on here from the governor's desk gone down Do you see this as a dark time within the ELCA? Or is this just light bursting through? I mean, obviously there's some pain in this birthing, but how do you overall see it at this point? I am absolutely the optimist from Hale I think this is a great time I think our culture is going through some massive upheavals I think there's a new paradigm that's starting to emerge I think there are people who are afraid of that I think there are people who see that and embrace it I think this is a great time in the ELCA Because now we are going to be forced to have to actually sit down and say Who and what are we really going to be? And I think that's a powerful conversation I think that's an incredibly fulfilled conversation Because obviously the ways in which we have been and done the church For a very long time aren't working anymore It's a little bit like for me It's a little bit like when the Vatican in the 60s under John Paul Under John the 23rd kind of opened up its windows and let some fresh air blow through I think that's what's happening, but every 500 years There seems to be a major sort of religious shift in the world And I think we are in one of those shifts now Where we're going to see something start to emerge on the horizon There have been great authors who have been talking about this for decades Hans Kuhn certainly being one of them That there is sort of a whole new way of being that's coming forward And it's difficult, it's struggle I mean this idea somehow that you can have renewal without pain This is I think the birth pains of a new way Of the church being the church And I think it's long overdue And so no, I don't think this is a dark time But I like the very hope-filled time And you know, and I think we're going to struggle for a while But you know what, that's okay I am full of hope that we are going to once again become what it means to be church No, I'm very hope-filled I would say by the way, Scott, that I wouldn't call you optimist from hell Optimist from heaven, that's what it sounds like to me It's okay, it can change that optimist from heaven I truly think we are better not beating up our brothers and sisters And I think that's a problem we have Is that you know, we want to sort of trump our righteousness with our rightness I think what we have to do is not forget that people are struggling And I think I struggle with a massive number of different issues When it comes to what it means to be the church And I think one of the natural responses to that struggle is to pull back Is to batten down the hatches, is to become sort of a legalistic And again, you know, there's nothing new here And preparing for, you know, for reformation And I've been rereading an old piece on the reformation And what the author of this narrative on reformation, a guy made him a haunts his brand And what he talks about is that it wasn't Luther who made the reformation The reformation was going to happen because the forces of the world were simply shifting You know, the people, you know, like Luther and Melanchthon and others who were a part of this journey If it wouldn't have been them, it would have been someone else Because there was just sort of a need for the culture to shift And that meant the culture of the church And I think we're in that same cultural shift And it's hard to let go of what was when you're not too sure what you're grabbing a hold of You know, when that new out there is particularly well formed And you're not too sure what it is And so I think we're going to be gentle and nice with those who are desperately holding on And just affirm them and invite them along And I think this is one of these conversations That once again, it's like the women's ordination issue We'll look back on this 30, 40 years down the line and think, what was the big deal? You know, what was the big deal here? And I think, you know, that's always something I've tried to do Is say, you know, how will history rectus narrative Will history be kind to those who wanted to just nail everything down And baton all the hatches and push all the gay people back in the closet? I don't think so I don't think history will reflect well on that And that's one of the things we need to do And to sort of keep our eye looking at the future and saying, you know, this isn't God's hands I trust God will bring us to where we need to be I think one final question for you, Lizzie, and that is, what are your hopes for this visit? I think you're trying to seed something You're trying to plant seeds for the future If we could describe what your vision would be of these seeds coming to fruition Growing up to be what you'd really like to see happen here What is this visit about? What's that vision about? It's twofold First, it's to help a congregation and its leaders Continue on the journey of being open and welcoming Not just to the LGBT community, though that's the one that I am most concerned with now But to all people who need a spiritual home and for some reason have been shunted to the side And the second is to have these congregations form a coalition so that they can support each other in this journey And also to have power in the debate, have power in the witnessing for social justice I vote for both one and two They're both excellent, excellent objectives And I think they're prophetic in what they promise for all of us I want to thank all of you, Lizzie, for making the long drive from Milwaukee to the Interlands of Eau Claire Which I hope has been enjoyable and rewarding, but especially for your many years of service Reaching out, making a safe place for all people, for them to feel whole To fully be themselves and loved and welcome for just who they are To see love increase in our society, that is a life well lived David, for doing this sometimes hard and enduring work of growing and nurturing a local community Being a stable, safe person for people to be the best that they can be with each other And Scott, I especially want to thank you for your irresistible optimism Facing the challenges with hope and grace and reminding us to put love at the center Not only love and acceptance like what you showed to your son But love for all those who might seem to be our adversaries So, thanks to all of you, Lizzie, David and Scott, for being here today for Spirit and Action And I look forward to hearing more from all of you again soon My guests today for Spirit and Action have been Lizzie Dalk, Coordinator of Equality Wisconsin's Voices of Faith Project See EqualityWI.org And she was joined by two Eau Claire Pastors, David Huber of Plymouth UCC and Scott Miller of First Lutheran We'll send you off today with a song by Tom Goss Tom was my guest sometime back for Song of the Soul This song is "You Don't Question Love" See you next week for Spirit in Action You don't question love You let it be You don't give the right to some, then take that right from me And if it's family you want, then welcome to my home Love is something my family owns You don't tell a child You can't be raised here And I can see their eyes and in them questioning and fear 'Cause a family they know Is one that takes you home Loves you more than you'll ever know Take it fast now Or take it slow Your deepest breath you know deserves one more 'Cause I'll never kiss the face of a more beautiful soul You don't question love You said it free Let it grow to something everyone can see And if you look into your eyes You will see your love in mine And you will bless it And you will bless it And you will bless it No, don't question love The theme music for this program is Turning of the World performed by Sarah Thompson This Spirit in Action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website NorthernSpiritRadio.org Thank you for listening. I am your host Mark Helpsmeet And I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action With every voice, with every song We will move this world along With every voice, with every song We will move this world along And our lives will feel the echo of our healing (upbeat music)