Spirit in Action
John McCutcheon - Mightier Than The Sword
[music] Let us sing this song for the healing of the world That we may hear as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along And our lives will feel the echo of our healing [music] Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world That we may dream as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along It's a real treat to welcome John McCutchen as today's Spirit in Action. John is a prolific musician and performer with over 30 recordings out there And you will find throughout that his music lifts up values and causes that are to the betterment of all. Whether the topic is corporations are love, war, or parenting, or the environment, or a rubber-blubber whale, John McCutchen weaves together vision, delight, humor, insight, and tremendous musical gifts As inspiration for a brighter future. Raised Catholic, he's had home with Quakers for the past 20 years. Read more about his music and activism at his home page, folkmusic.com John McCutchen joins us today by phone. John, thanks so much for joining me for Spirit in Action. It's great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. I don't want to accuse you of anything, but you're out there in Virginia instead of good old Wisconsin Where you started from, which is where I am. How did you make that transition from Wisconsin up to Virginia? Well, actually, I'm not even in Virginia anymore. For the last two years I've been living in Georgia. So how did you get to Georgia from Virginia? Are you just migrating south constantly? Looking for the warmer claims, I guess. I left Wisconsin actually for a couple of years of college in Minnesota. During which time I got bitten by the southern music bug and started playing the banjo, which is the ultimate of cultural denial in the upper Midwest. Convince the college advisor to let me do a three month field study of banjo music in Appalachia. That was all she wrote. I hitchhiked down here mostly to eastern Kentucky, West Virginia. Virginia, Tennessee, mostly coal country. And it was a really important period in the region. It's when the anti-strip mining movement was really getting on its grassroots feet. There was big reform movements going on in the coal miners union with the miners' root democracy. And for the first time in my life, I was being used as a musician in things that mattered in people's communities. I had started off being really moved by music of the civil rights movement. That was my introduction to a world greater than myself. I was 11 years old and my mother was a woman who answered her pesky eldest son's questions about what was all this stuff on TV with water hoses and dogs and men with flaming crosses. What's this about? It seemed the world away from my northern Wisconsin home. The civil rights movement was that perfect confluence of spirituality, struggle, and song. And it all moved me. And when I was this 19-20 year old kid, all of a sudden finding myself on the front lines of community struggles and being dependent on in a culture in which artists tend to be viewed as either the elite or the insignificant. Here was a place that it mattered if you were a banjo player. There's a limited number of musicians who think that it's good to mix, I don't know when you call politics, activism with the art of music. And some of them are the most impressive ones, but there's a lot of people who shy away from it. You didn't feel that kind of hesitation to mix it like if I start speaking out on controversial subjects maybe I'm not going to get any airplay? I wasn't getting any airplay anyway. You know, I started off feeling as though I was part of a very tiny little corner of the world. But by God, it was my corner of the world. And you know, if you're involved in folk music, you're really blessed with attentive audiences. You know, if I was a country singer, I'd be playing in smokey bars and doing covers for years before I could ever venture to do something that I might have composed. You know, you still run into it no matter who or what you are. I mean, he, cigarette into a black list and people, I don't think, remember how high up the popular music ladder he had scaled before he, all of a sudden, had no work. So, you know, there are people who have paid a much greater price than I. And really in the grand scheme of things, I have a pretty wonderful job. You know, I show up even when it's in support of some community organization and be charming for a couple of hours, once a year. And then I leave town and the hard work of organizing our communities is left to the people who do that on a daily basis and rarely get anything even approaching a standing ovation. The trick, I think, and the challenge to modern progressive patriots is to really name your patriotism for what it is and name alternative views of how this world and this country and our communities and our families can, should or must be forged is not treasonous. Descent is not treasonous in a democracy. For instance, there's a song that I wrote shortly after the start of the latest Gulf War. You know, really urging those of us in the progressive community to not cede the symbols of our patriotism to one small sliver of the political spectrum. There was a song that I actually wrote with my friend, Barbara Kingsolver, who's a wonderful writer of poetry and essays and novels called "Our Flag Was Still There". Well, how about we play that, John. Our flag was still there, and which album is that from? It's from mightier than the sword. Our flag was still there, it's by my guest for today's spirit in action, John McCutchen. I can see it's so clear. The very first time I met a game with my dad. And I was eight, maybe nine. We all rose to our feet, before the ballgame could start. We took off our caps, we put our hands to our hearts. It was more than a banner, it was more than a song. I sang because I believed, I sang because I belonged. I sang for all those who dreamed, for all those who dared. We looked to the heights, and our flag was still there. See it passing on cars, I see it passing for war. I see it passing for patriotism. We've all seen that before. I've seen it used as a weapon, to brand some as wrong. No one has the right, I'll stand up and fight, to say I belong. 'Cause our flag is still there, for all the saints and the sinners. Yes our flag is still there, for all the losers and winners. Those of us who still dreamed, those of us who still dared. And the outcast and forgotten, our flag is still there. From Lawrence to Lexington, from Concord to Kent. In Seattle and Selma, we are born of descent. And on this native ground, blessed by immigrant blood. In the river of freedom, we're all washed in the flood. 'Cause our flag is still there, for all the saints and the sinners. Yes our flag is still there, for all the losers and winners. Those of us who still dreamed, those who still dared. All the lost and forgotten, flag is still there. Still there though we might disagree, if you are brave in the land of the free. We have weathered so much, we have traveled so far. We're woven together, we are spangled with stars. [Music] So as we take off our caps, as we all rise, put our hands to our hearts. And as we lift up our eyes, we begin with a question. We ask of say can you see, stand and be strong, believe and belong, be brave and be free. 'Cause our flag is still there, for all the saints and the sinners. Yes our flag is still there, for all the losers and winners. Those of us who still dreamed, those of us who still dared. For everyone in this country, flag is still there. [Music] [Music] That was our flag was still there, John McCutcheons, the artist. I'm very pleased to hear that you did that with Barbara Kingsolver. I just finished her latest book or one of the latest ones about her eating local. Animal, vegetable, miracle. Barbara's an old friend and actually after writing that particular song and then writing yet another song based on Wendell Berry's writings. I conceived of the idea of doing an entire album of songs co-written with authors and that's what the theme of the album mightier than the sword is. So this song was sort of the germ that kicked the whole project off. That is an awesome song. You, I think, are active in a number of things. You mentioned about the strip mining. Is environmentalism a big issue for you personally and in terms of your life? You started up, I think, near Wasa, Wisconsin. I did. I did. And I spent a lot of time just outside as many people who grew up in a great state did. One of the things, in fact, I was talking to my partner about just the other evening, is that we have an entire generation of kids who are being handed the mantle of saving the planet from all the shit that we've done to it. And yet this is a generation that has spent less time outdoors than any generation in memory. I just don't get the connection between the pure ideology of environmentalism without there being a contact with the natural world. And if we can do anything to fuel the outrage that we should be feeling about the mistakes that have been made and kick-start the action that needs to be done, it is getting people falling in love with the natural world. It doesn't matter whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, whether you're a capitalist or a communist. If you can't drink the water and you can't breathe the air, your kids are going to die. And I come in from a variety of different angles. For instance, I've toured a lot up in Alaska, and I can assure you no one can see Russia from any point in Alaska. And one of the places I've always started my Alaskan tours is a wonderful little town, Cordova, which is the main fishing town in Prince William Sound. And it was the community that sent the very first rescue efforts out after the Exxon Valdez and pitwood self on Bligh Reef on Good Friday in 1989. And they were working on the spill individually for three days before the federal government ever showed up. About a week later, the Fishermen's Union, the Cordova District, Fishermen United, the CEFU, who has sponsored my concerts many times up in Cordova, a great local union, called me and said we would really need you to come up here. We're going to have a thing called Prince William Sound Day, and we just want some music, and everybody wants to hear you. So they flew me up, and on the way up I thought, gosh, there's going to be hundreds of fist off and really sad people in this room. So what's the best way to handle this? And I thought, you know, there's probably been a great shortage of laughter in this community of late, and they're probably just dying to laugh again. So I put together a song about this whole thing that actually took a rather a cervic humerous view of the whole situation. I did this 20 years ago, but I have been singing it ever since then, and I have vowed to continue singing it until Exxon, now Exxon Mobile, who just today in the news posted record $14 billion after tax quarterly profits. As soon as they pony up the first dime of the punitive find that they were assessed nearly 20 years ago, I'll stop singing this song, but it's had a much longer life than I anticipated. Let's listen to it. The song is Black Sea. John McCutchen is the artist. Now friends, I know you read about it in the paper, or perhaps I saw the footage on TV. How the tanker cracked and then the sea ran black, but it's time for some compassion, don't you see? Well, hell, the shipping lane was only 10 miles wide. Now you're fisherman, you ought to understand me, and when the captain asked for one on the rocks, well, the third mate followed his command. We're gonna change the name to the Black Sea, we're gonna turn it to a tourist spot, and when we're done, we'll give it back to the people of Alaska, just to show what man have wrought. And we'll pass along the cost to the ones who lost, 'cause you know it's the American way, erecting the on sign for the rest of time, brought by Exxon USA. Now the government, it was mighty quick on its feet, no that ever left a single thing to chance. But when it came to pressuring a corporate giant, don't you know that it a brand new dance, they said you got your birds and your mammals and your fishin' and your families? Well, I hope you'll understand the brief delay, but you can bet if this had happened off a Kenny Bunkport, they'd have cleaned it up the very same day. And call it the spill of fortune, and maybe you can buy a foul oil, pulls the strings and the government sings, throws up its hands, throws in the towel, and if we can get the clearance, a special guest appearance will be scheduled by the IRS, with 'em up and a rake and a big tax break, 'cause they used to work it in an awful mess. Now, I don't claim to have all the answers, but you know I got questions by the score. Like who's got the power, who's got the name, who's got the right, and who's got the blame, and who's got the lawyers, and who's got the tax breaks, who's got the damage control, but who's got the homes, and who's got the future, and who's got the troubles sold? So you can skim off the oil like you skim off the profits, but you'll only skim the surface of crime, and when you drive to the pump, watch the gas price jump, and I'm sure you'll understand it all the time, why up in the land of the midnight sun? You know we're really in an awful fix, it seems their corporate profits and the public good, like oil and water don't mix. We call it I've got a secret, and everyone could guess what's been done, or maybe we should call it to tell the truth. Wouldn't that be a lot of fun, but it's more like good morning America, and everyone is waking up to find that feather and fin and fur and skin, we're all judged by the bottom line. Sign by sign, we're gonna turn that time, 'cause there ain't gonna be a second time. [music] [applause] That was Black Sea. John, what is the mixture that you try and strike of humors versus serious, or do you actually aim in that direction, 'cause when you're laughing at someone, or maybe laughing with them, it's a different tone. To how you're addressing the issues. A lot of times, when you have a challenging issue, I'll be honest with you, I am not a big fan of political masturbation, I don't get up there, and just flaunt my political correctness. I mean, who cares, really, what I think, I'm just one citizen, I'm just a banjo player. My whole idea is to get things done. I'm a pragmatic kind of guy, I worked as a community organizer early in my career, and have done a lot of organizing, especially of late in the musicians union, but with community groups wherever I've lived. And the bottom line is not just simply to stake out your territory, but to actually move, that's what a movement is supposed to be doing. There are some musicians who preach the choir, and every now and again, I do that. But for me, the most fertile and the most challenging turf on which to stake my claim is that middle ground where people might and do disagree with one another. Humor, I have found, is a great disarmament tool. People who disagree with one another can laugh at something together if it's cleverly done, they can even laugh at something that they might intellectually disagree with, but the whole point of humor is surprise. That's what makes things funny, you're being presented with something in a way that's unexpected. Then it's catalytic, then it's easier to get people left. If you've ever been to a comedy club, someone can tell the lamest joke 30 minutes into their routine, and it seems funny when in and of itself it's not. So I've used humor a lot, maybe too much sometimes, in hopes of getting people to see things across previously conceived or perhaps misconceived partisan lines. I'm not interested in partisan stuff, I'm interested in common ground, and there's all too little of it these days, and we tend to think in really big terms, like we have to save the world this weekend. When in truth, one of the things of being a part of traditional communities and traveling around the world to nations that are far, far older than we are and have a lot longer scope of history with which to look, they tend to have them equally longer scope of looking into the future, and I keep being reminded time and time again that we are not called upon to do great things, but we are called upon to do small things greatly. That's why my favorite song is the old Jungian anthem that I learned from Nimrod Workman back in 1973, and to me it's a perfect song, it's a four-line song that says everything it needs to say, and I figure, if I can ever write a song that says everything it needs to say, four lines, and I'll often say to myself, a songwriter. Step-by-step, longest march, candy one, candy one, many stones can form and are easy, singly none, singly none, and my union what we will, can be accomplished still, drops of water, turn a mill, singly none, singly none, step-by-step, longest march, candy one, candy one, many stones can form and are easy, singly none, singly none, and my union what we will, can be accomplished still, drops of water, turn a mill, singly none, singly none. [music] Step-by-step, longest march, candy one, candy one, many stones can form and are easy, singly none, singly none, and my union what we will, singly none, singly none, step-by-step, longest march, candy one, candy one, many stones can form and are easy, singly none, singly none, and my union what we will, can be accomplished still, drops of water, turn a mill, singly none, singly none, singly none, singly none, singly none, singly none, singly none, singly none, singly none. That was step-by-step, John McCutchen playing it, but who did you say you learned that from John? Nimrod Workman, Nimrod Workman was a retired coal miner from Mingo County, West Virginia. I met Nimrod when he was, oh gosh, 74 I guess. I met him at a gathering of regional political artists at the Highlander Center in East Tennessee. Boy, he, more than maybe anybody I've ever met really knocked my hat in a creek as they say in that part of the world. He had worked with Mother Jones and John L. Lewis to bring United Mine workers into the state of West Virginia, fought in the Battle of Blair Mountain, the first time the aerial bombing was ever used, was against West Virginia coal miners in the Battle of Blair Mountain and Nimrod was there. He was a great friend and a great teacher of mine, a seemingly endless repository of a combination of wisdom, experience and bullshit. I think a great combination and anyone as far as I can tell, one I aspire to, like Utah Phillips. Utah Phillips was the next generation's Nimrod Workman, and I don't know who it's up to now. Well, there's an awful lot of inspirational people. You must meet them every year. Sometimes you put them into your songs. There's one song I like of yours about a young Native American woman. How did that song come about into your, did you actually see her, do you just receive that one word of mouth? Now Sue M. Big Crow is a legendary figure among Native American communities. She was an oglala Sioux from the Pine Ridge reservation in South Dakota and was the most storied athlete, male or female to ever come out of the reservation. Her dream was to lead the Lady Thorps, her high school basketball team to the state championship, thereby making it the first Native American team to ever win a state championship in any sport, in any state. In 1991, her senior year, she scored the winning basket as Pine ran out in the state championship game, thus fulfilling her dream. I've heard about Sue Anne's story from a variety of sources, mostly Native American friends and mine, especially storytellers, but it was not about her winning the state championship game. Sue Anne regrettably died in a car accident a year after she graduated from high school, and in fact the boys and girls club on the Pine Ridge reservation is named in her honor. But the story that captured my attention happened four years earlier when she was a freshman on the same team, and it was such a remarkable story. One of the things I've always done with my writing is whether it be the story of the 1914 Christmas Eve Truce that turned into Christmas in the trenches or the story of the cellist of Sarajevo, veteran Smalovec, that turned into a song and now a children's picture book called Streets of Sarajevo. It's take these unique, amazing stories that you may just catch if you're paying attention in one of the back pages of the New York Times. Breathe new life into it in the form of a song that can be sung and audiences that may have never heard the song get to hear the story. I mean never heard the story get to hear it via the songs. But the story of Sue Anne Big Crow and what she did when she was a mere fourteen-year-old freshman year, one of the most inspiring stories I've ever heard. I am Sue Anne Big Crow. I am fourteen years old here on the Pine Ridge reservation. I play for the ladythorps that night on the court. I was the old lollination. I prepared for this moment before I was born by Chief Big Crow of Sanzark Lakota. I am of his line, but the moment was mine the night we played in Leeds South Dakota. I was the first one through the door, the first one on the floor. The lead fans exploded like a bomb. The fake Indian war-whoops, the curses, the shouts and hoots I felt my racing heart grow still and calm. The ball fell from my hands as I faced the seething stands, my warm-up jacket draped across my shoulder. I danced the shawl dance, I sang the sacred chants, and in their silence I felt ages older. And I danced, isn't this beautiful? Isn't this real we have danced this for these countless years? Before you left Europe, before Wounded Knee, before the long trail of tears. [MUSIC] This land is an ideal, but nothing here is real until someone ventures. And act. For all and for free, until we finally see if freedom is fiction or fact. I am Sue and Big Crow, I am 14 years old, here on the Pine Ridge Reservation. I play for the ladythorps, that night on the court, I was the old Elalination. I play for the ladythorps, that night on the court, I was the old Elalination. [MUSIC] That was Sue and Big Crow, inspirational person, and they're just all over the place, aren't they? It's like the year that Jackie Rob, we celebrate the 50th anniversary of Jackie Robinson integrating the White Major League in 1997. Another writer that I knew wrote a song about Jackie Robinson, and I was, at the same time, hired to do a commencement speech at a small North Carolina University. And I thought, well, I want to talk to them, I want to sing to them, and what do I say to these young kids? As they're kicking them out the door and onto their lives, and I thought, you know, the heroes that we have, the really iconic figures, whether they be Jackie Robinson or Nelson Mandela or Martin Luther King or Mother Teresa, are so iconic that we cannot imagine giving our entire lives over to something. And it makes these heroes almost unreal to us, as though, yes, it's wonderful, we like those people. But, you know, I believe in Martin Luther King, but no, I think we ought to go to war. You know, we miss the meat of what it was they were living about. But there are smaller players in these dramas that we can latch onto. I ended up writing a song called "Crossed That Line" about the relationship between Jackie Robinson and P.E. Reese, who was his teammate on the Brooklyn Dodgers, who, in hundreds of everyday ways, stood up to racism, and he had grown up with racism. He was himself in many ways before he met Jackie Robinson, a racist. But it was the personal contact with someone that caused him to stand up in very public ways and defend Jackie Robinson. So, it's the same with Sue Ann Big Crow or with Bedroom Smalovic or with Sarah Takulski, the girl who, you know, blew her knee out of her last softball game in college after she hit a home run and she had to complete the round of the bases. And the rules said that your teammates cannot help you, so her opponents picked her up and carried her around so she could touch every base. Maybe we, as individuals, can't imagine being a Jackie Robinson or a mother to Reese, but every single day we have an opportunity to be a P.E. Reese or be a Mallory Holtman, the girl who carried Sarah Takulski around the bases. Or a Sue Ann Big Crow who can stand up in the face of ugliness and hatred and violence and respond to it with an act of utter beauty. You know, darkness is not going to drive out the darkness. Only light drives out the darkness. Amen, definitely. I'm curious, I mean, like me, I know that you grew up Catholic and certainly your mother was inspirational, influential for you. Oh, yeah. Did you stay with that all along as the Catholicism? I mean, there's the whole Catholic worker movement which includes a number of really very inspirational people. Oh, yeah. How long did you travel that path? I traveled that path really until I went south and I was living. It was a very different kind of religious and/or spiritual community that I all of a sudden entered into. It was very fundamental. It was John 3 16, or damnation. And growing up Catholic, there was no salvation without good deeds. And not only did I not find that kind of community that was like my own. I found other kinds of spiritual communities that were very invigorating. I mean, the music that I heard in the little Southern churches was, you know, moved me in ways that nothing had my little parish Sunday high masses ever approached. But it was an entirely different way of thinking about your spiritual life. And there also were hardly any Catholics and there were no Catholic churches where I lived. And in fact, it was the first time I really came in contact with anti-Catholic prejudice. So when I finally moved to a place where there was a Catholic church, when I moved to Charlottesville, Virginia with my family in 1986, I actually ended up gravitating toward the Quakers and have been a Quaker for the last, oh, 20 plus years now. But, you know, my friend Kate Clinton has often said, you know, you're never not a Catholic. You may be a recovering Catholic. But the kind of things that were instilled in you, what could impact, as with any religion, are still a part of who you are. You know, one of the things that I miss, and I feel like, to some degree I get from the Quaker meeting from worship, is some of the experience that I had at Midnight Mass. Midnight Mass, I miss. Yeah, oh, you can still go though, you know. Religion really is a man-made construct. It was human beings who created religions. I remember hearing a quote from a Native American elder that said, "Religion is for people who are afraid of hell, and spirituality is for people who have been there." Well, I'm glad we're out of there. I know you're working with some limited time, so I think there's a couple more songs we want to get in for this Spirit in Action. Great. I just want to remind our listeners you're listening to Spirit in Action. I'm Mark Helps meat of Northern Spirit Radio, and we're visiting today with John McCutchen, and he's down there in Georgia somewhere. I haven't been there much, but I guess I'll have to come down and visit. Where would you like to go next on this musical travel through your activism? Well, as long as we're in Georgia, why don't we take just a brief stop down at Fort Benning? The weekend before Thanksgiving, how appropriate is this? Every year, there is what is now an enormous gathering in protest of the School of the Americas that happens at Fort Benning, and hundreds of people, including many, many religious people. Father Robert Bourgeois began the protest many years ago. This is a place that has trained over the years many military and intelligence leaders in Latin American, especially Central American countries, how to do unspeakable things to their populations to maintain control. You know, those things are no longer secrets to anyone who has paid any attention over the last 25 years to the atrocities that have gone on in places like El Salvador and in Nicaragua and in Guatemala and South American countries, Colombia most recently. And it's our tax dollars paying for this and training these people. So there is a gathering of tens of thousands of people. Music has been a really important part of that, and I've been quite honored that a song that I wrote back in 1983 or '84, at the height of the Salvador and Civil War, called "No Maas", has been picked up and as often happens with the evolution of songs, words have been changed around to adapt to "To Modern Times", and it's one of the many songs that fun a lot during the protest every November, it's called "No Maas", no more. Music It's snowing in the valley, ice jokes the river's mouth, but the air is still and silent in the mountains to the south, and near the fire in the cook stove, drives the winters chill away, while the silent southern centuries pass the watchful hours today, and from the mountains of Virginia to the hills of Salvador, the mothers and the fathers and their children of war, and the hands have rolled the ploughs on the trigger in the night, killing other sons and daughters, fighting someone else's fight. "No Maas", no more, shout the hills of Salvador, echo the mountains of Virginia, we'd cry out "No Maas", no more, "No Maas", no more, shout the hills of Salvador, "No Maas", no more, "No Maas", no more, no more, "No Sore" shelter to plow, shares till the land is there to plow, till the name is on the palate that rots in the prison now, and the weapons of the victory, shall be schools and food and jobs, and a song from every mountain top its piles even alive, "No Maas", no more, shout the hills of Salvador, in Guatemala, Nicaragua, we'd cry out "No Maas", no more, no more, "No Maas", no more, shout the hills of Salvador, "No Maas", no more, "No Maas", no more, "No Maas", no more, are you actually a Spanish speaker, John? I guess to get one phrase out like "No Maas", it's not really a great challenge. I took Spanish when I was in high school in a little bit in college, in fact I went into college as a double major in social work in Spanish, and I'm a part of a big extended Cuban family here in the Atlanta area, love brought me from Virginia to Georgia, and I can get by, I certainly wouldn't consider myself fluent, but as my younger son, who is fluent, said to me once, my dad isn't fluent, but he's fearless. That's an excellent quality to have. You're also fearless when you're doing your humorous songs. I know we're getting very short on time. I think we need to do one of your very funny songs. Which one would you like to jump into? How about not me, after eight years of the last administration? Seems amazing to say the last administration. One that was built on the twin pillars of personal responsibility and supposed honesty, and yet they were unable to ever admit a mistake, I thought things really got in turn on their heads compared to what we teach our children. And so I was doing a workshop at the festival on the political children's songs, and I thought, hmm, what's the political song or what's not a political song? I don't buy the whole protest singer label. It sounds too much like some guy standing in a street corner screaming. Rather, when I'm playing a fiddle tune or singing a song like step by step or singing a love song, it all is a part of a vision of the world that I want to see happen, and that's political work as far as I'm concerned. All the kids songs in some way that I've ever written, I think, are political. But to follow the rules of the workshop, I tried to tie together with other contemporary stuff. So, you know, it's not me. Back when I was just a kid, no matter what you did, if you screwed up, you stepped forward and you took the blame, no matter where the chips would fall, you stand up tall and bravely raise your hand and say your name. Oh, you took your lumps. You weathered all the bumps and you paid whatever price there was to pay. Were these lessons off or not? 'Cause these days if you get caught without a hint to shame, here's what you say. Not me. Not me. It's somebody else's fault, can't you see? In the present atmosphere, it's absolutely clear that the buck stops miles from here. If you want to know the score for you, get into a war and we're asked to risk our money and our youth. Before we mount the task, it seems reasonable to ask if your info is conclusive or at least a truth. And when your reasons all go bust and you violate our trust, we know we've all been down that road before. No hint to shame upon your face. Nutrition, not a trace, no you'll never hear, I'm sorry anymore. Not me. Not me. It's somebody else's fault, can't you see? In the present atmosphere, it's absolutely clear that the buck stops miles from here. If you lie, or if you cheat, better not admit defeat, though you're caught with your fingers in the jar. It'll only show your weak if you're penitent or meghan. Those merchants just won't get you very far. 'Cause in this world today, a torment is passé, and everything I've seen in life confirms. Cross your fingers, turn your back, let some sucker take the flack, 'cause honesty is just a can of worms. If you're pouring on the dole, turn a little self-control and understand you are the reason for your fate. Knuckle down, you lazy slop. Quick complain and get a job, and girls get married, but only if you're straight. But if you help to lead the nation or your own, a corporation you are governed by a different set of rules. Just deny an obfuscate, deflect and fabricate, 'cause responsibility is just for fools. And not me. Not me. It's somebody else's fault, can't you see? In the present atmosphere, it's absolutely clear that the buck stops miles from here. Not me. Not me. It's somebody else's fault, can't you see? Stomp, you wouldn't tear your hair. Ask me if I care, 'cause the buck stops nowhere. That was not me. Who was that if it's not you? It was probably John McCutchen, that's who it was, I think. The big bet today, isn't it? Yeah, that's where the buck stops. It stops right with John McCutchen, and it's miles from here, so it's down in Georgia. I'm John McCutchen, and I approve that song. Well, I think we better conclude here with just one more song. And would you like to pick one out of your... How many albums is it now that you have on how many recordings do you have out there, John? Over 30. Too many, probably. If you can't name the number of recordings you put out there, does this put you in parallel with a certain presidential candidate right at the moment? Yeah, I don't remember how many albums I own. Well, I think a good way to tie this up would maybe be with another song that has proved to be pretty useful, you know, in this life. We hope for many things, and for me, it was best articulated by my friend Charlie King, who during a political song workshop said, "The most profoundly political work that he's been doing has been going down to the local hospice and singing at bedside." And he said, "I've never felt more useful." And you think, "Well, that's really what it's about, back to those earliest days when my mother would chide me. Well, that's a great job that you're getting up and getting all these people to clap for you every five minutes. Who has a job like that? But what are you doing this for? There has to be about more than just you. When the anti-war movement picked up my song, not in my name, it's a song that I think fulfills the twin desires that most people, most citizens feel, they want to do something individually and they want to do something as part of a group. And here you are as a part of a group of maybe thousands of people stating your own manifesto, that what you are doing is not in my name. And by that collective act, you are saying not in our name. So it seems like an appropriate way to quote the conversation. Let's do that with John the Cuchinsong, not in my name. See the plane in the distance. See the flame in the sky. See the young ones running for cover. The old ones wondering why. The tell us that the world is a dangerous place. We live in a terrible time. But in Hiroshima, New York or in Baghdad, it's the innocent to die for the crime. Not in my name. Not in my name. Not in my name. Not in my name. Witnesses watch through the window. Their hearts lock in horror and pain. Let the man lying strapped to a gurney. The poison has come through his face. And I'm wondering who are the prisoners. ♪ Who was the lock and the key ♪ ♪ Who has the power of our life over death ♪ ♪ When will we finally be free ♪ ♪ Not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name ♪ ♪ We stray and we stumble in seeking the truth ♪ ♪ Wonder why it's so hard to find ♪ ♪ Put an eye for it, I am a tooth ♪ ♪ For a tooth, these little hole hungry and blind ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) ♪ Today, 'cause I have watched all your holy words ♪ ♪ The gee hocks, your crusade ♪ ♪ I have been users inspiration ♪ ♪ I've been users and excused ♪ ♪ For the murder and the misery you've made ♪ ♪ I thought I made it clear in the Bible ♪ ♪ In the Torah, in the Koran ♪ ♪ What is it in my teaching about loving your enemies ♪ ♪ That you people don't understand ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Don't know not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ ♪ Not in my name, not in my name ♪ A truly awesome song, not in my name. I have to say, John, that one of the reasons that song is among my very favorite is the wonderful way that you reached into what some people consider a political issue or a lifestyle issue or something. But you said, where's the divine in this? And, you know, that's a touchy thing because a lot of people say, you know, you can't talk to me about three letter words like God or anything like that. I think you did it with amazing taste in that song. - Well, thank you. - So, John, I'm just hoping we can have you back and share a song with the soul. Can we arrange that in the future sometime? - I would love that. - And one other thing I want to make sure is fine with you. I like to get your music out there to people. So, for spirit and action, very frequently, I'll throw in a song that's thematic with whoever I'm speaking with. Is it okay if I include in some of your songs, just expose John McCutchen to more of the world? - I'm happy to expose myself. - I just want to thank you so much for taking the time, John, keeping up the work. I assume you're touring a fair amount right now with the election coming up. Are you speaking out that way? - I was just up with my friend Holly Neer and Emma's Revolution and Laura Love and Roy Zimmerman and many others. Barnstorming around Ohio for about a nine day stretch in the hopes of getting out the vote and supporting the Obama campaign. - And before we sign off, I want to mention that you have, did you have to invest really big money to buy the domain name that you got? I mean, to be personified folk music. FolkMusic.com's your domain name, right? - No, nobody had it, you know? I mean, I got it about 10 years ago, but it just goes to show you what a small blip in cyberspace folk music really is. I have been offered hundreds of dollars for that domain name. - So thanks again, John, so much for taking time and keep up the good work. - You too, thanks a lot, Mark. - That was my guest for today's spirit and action, John McCutchen, joining us from his home in Georgia. - The theme music for this program is "Turning of the World," performed by Sarah Thompson. This spirit and action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio. You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website, northernspiritradio.org. Thank you for listening. I am your host, Mark Helpsmeet, and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is spirit in action. (upbeat music) ♪ With every voice ♪ ♪ With every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ ♪ With every voice ♪ ♪ With every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ ♪ I'm feeling ♪