Spirit in Action
Quetico And Awakening - Two Books Opening Wider
(upbeat guitar music) ♪ Let us sing this song for the healing of the world ♪ ♪ That we may hear as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ - Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helps me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred food in your own life. ♪ Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world ♪ ♪ That we may dream as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ - We'll have two authors with us today for Spirit in Action. The main course will be a visit with John Nelson about his book, "Quadico Close to Nature's Heart." The book is an extravaganza of glimpses into Ontario's Million Acre Wilderness Park. So stay tuned for a radio and book trip to "Quadico." But first, we'll have a brief visit with Michael L. Robbins about his soon-to-be book, "Awakening 13 Steps to Love, Freedom, and Power." Thing is, Michael is one of about 2,000 contestants in what is called the next top spiritual author competition. After you hear this visit with Michael L. Robbins, perhaps you'll want to go to his site, read the first chapter of his book, and maybe vote for him. You don't vote on the NorthernSpiritRadio.org site, but you can find a link from my site to the place where you do vote, nexttopauthor.com. You register at that site and you can vote for one or more authors helping narrow down the field so that they can pick the author whose book they'll help publish. So again, in about 15 minutes, we'll be talking with John Nelson about his book, "Quadico Close to Nature's Heart." But first, we'll go to the phones and talk with Michael L. Robbins about "Awakening 13 Steps to Love, Freedom, and Power." Michael, I'm glad to have you here for "Spirit in Action." - Thank you, Mark. Tell me about this contest, the next top spiritual author contest that you're gonna be entering in with your book, "Awakening 13 Steps to Love, Freedom, and Power." - Well, there are about 2,000 authors that have entered into it, quite a number, and the first hoop is voting, popular voting, and it goes off for eight months, and the winner will get a contract with Hampton Roads, but there's a lot of learning anyway that it's just worth being in the contest, too. - And how did you get involved in this and why did you get involved in this? Could you tell us a little bit about your own awakening that propelled you into this? - Yes, I have been very spiritually aware much of my life, but about a month ago, I kind of fell into a slump, or I was eating a lot, sleeping a lot, watching, ultimate fighting on TV, and anything can become addictive, and I had just forgotten. I was living a life, I guess, that a lot of people live, and an email came from James Twyman, inviting me into the next top spiritual of the contest. I read a book by Sasha Exarian, which electrified me, and awoke me, and I started rereading a book that I had written and was writing a long time ago, the book I'm putting out. That, the steps have lifted me, so all of that went into a tremendous and exciting awakening that's now occurring for me daily. Each day is more exciting and interesting than the next, and I find new gifts, new powers, and the life has become very exciting. - You mentioned in the chapter that is available for download from your site. You'd written this book, I think, seven years ago, and that book is all about awakening, and how to be awake, and how to live with power and love. And yet, for some reason, you had seven years of quiescence, or at least a month of quiescence, when you weren't at that point. So, is it possible to be enlightened, and to be awake fully, and then go to sleep? - Absolutely, you can forget, because life is moment to moment. Every single moment, there's a choice. And the mind, we all have conditioned minds, can, it leads you in directions. Every thought is a guidance, and I don't think I was unenlightened for seven years, but I certainly didn't follow through on putting my book out. Life got in the way, there were other directions and things, but I really took a dip, a tremendous dip, in the last month, about a month ago. It was really a gift to me, like everything in life is, because it showed me where people often are in their lives, and the great opportunity that they have to awaken to something within them. That's so wonderful, so exciting. So, it really was a gift, even at forgetting. - So, what do you mean literally by being awake? You were not awake, and now you're awake, what do you mean? - Well, I simply mean living in the now moment, and the excitement about who we really are. Most of us think of ourselves as our bodies, our personalities, and our life experience. But we're really consciousness itself, we're really no different than the source itself. And once that understanding becomes part of one's life, there becomes a journey of traveling into that, and discovering that, and there is nothing that's more exciting and wonderful than that journey. So, I call that that awareness, awakening, and it never ends, because there is no end. It goes on forever, and to ever more wonderful. - How does it show up in an outward sense? Of course, this is an inward transformation that we're talking about, but I think it must reflect in the world. I don't think people grow a third eye physically on their head. How do we know that everybody isn't already awake? Is there some way that we know that that's not there yet, and how would it be different when people are all awake? - Well, you can look at the world and see people, and I know, well, for myself, I see the potential, I see the increase, and I don't see that happening to a lot of people in the world where I am. Yes, in the world where I am on people who are understanding that, yes. But the news about tragedy, and killing, and despair, and frustration, and challenges, obviously the world is not that happy a place. And that's because they're living in the dimension of the mind that is not connected to that place of power that everybody has. Once you do, you simply know because your life becomes every single moment an opportunity for just great joy, great excitement, and great happiness in simply being alive. You're grateful. You're so grateful that you're here, and that life is going on. And I really don't think that the vast majority of people feel that way most of the time. This sounds somewhat akin to what I've heard people describe as their born again experience. Are there parallels? Is it at all similar? I would tend to say, no, the reason because is that is usually something that goes, and I don't think it's an every moment kind of experience. I don't know. It may be for those people. I'd have to meet them individually and personally. But I think if you venerate a deity outside yourself, which is often part of religion, it is actually a disempowerment because you are created in the image of God. You are one with the Father. And if there's not that extreme love of that and awareness of that, and often religions tend to separate that. There's that great savior, and we're just the dust of the earth. Even in the awakening, the savior is going to save me. But I really think that the real understanding of that is having a direct experience of who you are, which is the one that's made in the image of God. It's been a process. I mean, I've been studying this all of my life. I've read everything I could possibly get my hands on in psychology, religion, spirituality, philosophy. I read and I read and I tried it. I didn't just believe anything. I tried everything. The courage to not just take what someone tells you to believe, but have an experience. So it's been an ongoing thing, and yes, I forgot. I guess this got re-initiated when I fell asleep for a month and then an experience with many people in the world experience. When I said yes to James Toyman's offer of entering the contest, that was the first click that I began to remember when I had always been remembering and forgot for a period of a month. One thing that I'm interested in is a kind of a dynamic tension that exists between individual leading's individual clearness, of individual awakening and that of the community. I think originally, religions were formed for people to bring together and support each other in their spiritual awakening. So in your case, does that mean that you do or don't have a spiritual community, people that you turn to who help light your fire and call you back to consciousness, I guess? I do, and it's a glorious addition, but I no longer need it. The only thing I need is self-remembrance. However, it is glorious and wonderful, and I do have affiliation with more and more people coming together, because, you know, the statement, as I am lifted up, we are all lifted up together. Well, the all of us who are remembering the wonderfulness of us, our community, and I'm connecting with those people on the internet, in person, on the radio through many channels. And it's very, it's very, very heartwarming, it's very exciting, and they all have a similar story of some degree of forgetfulness and then the awakening in different stories, but the same plot. - You mentioned that there are some 2,000 people who have submitted as part of this next top spiritual author contest. That in itself is an amazing statement that there would be 2,000 people ready to put a book of their spiritual life, fervor, awakening, and not have it be religious, is quite a statement. So if you do have a chance to have your book published by Hampton Roads, what's going to be in 13 Steps to Love, Freedom, and Power? - Well, I don't have the book in front of me, but I'll tell you just some of the topics. I don't remember all of the 13 Steps. The first thing is desire. You have to want your life to be better than it is. If you want it, you can have it, it will get better. Clearing out, clearing out closets, drawers and things like that, you clear out outer space, you clear out inner space. Finding a meditation, finding a meditation that suits you, 'cause there are so, so many. Forgiveness is essential. - Absolutely, the fact of when you have hatred or hostility or extreme judgment of anyone as a barrier, it shuts you off from your divine connection. So forgiveness is essential. - And I think you must have examples of all of these things in your book and personal examples, how you've lived into it, because as you said, you've experientially lived through these rules, right? - I do have examples that I'm also asking for other people's examples, 'cause the contest goes off for eight months, so if I find stories that are better than my stories, I will include them in the book. So if anybody has a story and they want to connect with me to share that story, or they want to read my first chapter free, they can go to my website, which is Michael L. Robbins, R-O-B-I-N-S.com, and either send me their story or receive my story or both. So again, that site is Michael L. Robbins.com, and that's Robbins with one B, instead of perhaps the more typical two Bs. It's more like two birds called robins. And you can also read about the contests that Michael is involved in. The website for the next top spiritual author contest is nexttopauthor.com, and you can go there, look up the rules, and you can then vote for people. Do you know a little bit about the rules? Do you care to say anything about how people participate as observers in the contest? - Yes, they need to receive either an audio or video from one of the authors, then they get sent there, and I am in the process today of making the audio, which I may replace with a video, but that's more complicated. So I'm doing an audio today, and I will be sending it out to any people that I have their emails, which they can find at my website. That's the first step. - We want to remind everybody. You can participate in this as a voter by going to nexttopauthor.com. We're speaking today with Michael Robbins. He's got a book, "13 Steps to Love, Freedom, and Power." You can get his first chapter of his book via his site, which is Michael L. Robbins.com. That's Robbins, like in two birds. And you can then decide to vote for him. Michael, thanks so much for joining me for "Spirit in Action." - Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. - That was Michael Robbins, author of "Awakening, 13 Steps to Love, Freedom, and Power," and one of about 2,000 contestants in the next top spiritual author competition. Their site is nexttopauthor.com. Michael was our first guest for "Spirit in Action" today. I'm your host, Mark Helps-Meet of Northern Spirit Radio, and our site is northernspiritradio.org, where all our programs are archived, plus useful links and a place for comments. Of course, you can also listen to our programs via iTunes and via the station's coast coast where our programs are carried, including right here in the Chippewa Valley of Wisconsin on WHYS LP Eau Claire. Next up on "Spirit in Action" is John Nelson, author of "Quedico, Close to Nature's Heart," a book sure to peak your interest and stoke your enthusiasm and passion for the marvels of creation. Specifically, the Million acre wilderness canoe area in southern Ontario called "Quedico Provincial Park." I believe that experience of such mystical places as "Quedico" cannot fail to inspire a spiritual connection and care for creation. John joins me today in the Northern Spirit Radio studios here in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. John, thanks so much for joining me for "Spirit in Action." - I'm joy being here and, yeah, I look forward to discussing my book and whatever topics we get into. - Again, your book is "Quedico, Near to Nature's Heart." This is not a one-year research project. I really think you have decades into your experience with "Quedico." - Yes, my wife and I started working as heart crangers in "Quedico" in 1976, and we did that for 12 years, and then I was an archaeologist for six years, and then ever since then, I've gone into "Quedico" and canoe trips and snowshoeing, and for any reason I can come up with. It's only about two hours from where we live in Thunder Bay, Ontario. - And just to be upfront, I have a familial connection with you and with "Quedico," because you have a home that's out there. Is it possible to have private habitations within "Quedico" or do you just get to be on the fringe? - It's definitely just on the fringe. There are six ranger stations on the edges of "Quedico Park." "Quedico Park" is a wilderness canoe park, and it's all human-powered. You can't use motors in "Quedico Park." You can't use snow machines, motorboats. It's all paddling in the summer and snowshoeing across country skis in the winter. - And the house that you have on Nidia, that you built, that my in-laws have a house next door in that area, was that before or after you got connected with the camp ranger position there at "Quedico." - I first built the cabin on Nidia Lake in 1970. So that was prior to working in "Quedico." - Now, most people down in my area, we talk about the BWCA, the Boundary Waters canoe area. And over the border, of course, is where "Quedico" is. You're from Minnesota originally. You migrated north, you live up in Thunder Bay, Ontario now. How did you end up connecting with "Quedico"? - Yeah, right after graduating from high school, I got together with some friends and we decided to take a canoe trip. And we started in Eley, Minnesota. So we went first through the Boundary Waters canoe area, but we did go up into "Quedico." The two parks are adjacent to each other. The BWCA is on the Minnesota side of the border and "Quedico" is on the Ontario side. So a lot of people start in the BWCA and then later on go into "Quedico." I call "Quedico" the wild or twin. They were both set aside in 1909. They both became wilderness parks in 1978, but "Quedico" has a much stricter quota and has only roughly one-tenth as many people in the same size park as the BWCA. So it is, it's a wilder place. Mainly because there's less human influence there, less campers and in the past, less logging. I mean, I'm prejudiced, I'm Canadian though, but nevertheless, it's the wilder of the two. And could you, in your own words, say, "What's important about having these wild places? Why is this something that's good for you or perhaps good for the world?" What I think makes especially important, the boundary of "Quedico" and "Quedico" they're both about a million acres. So you put the two together and you have a, especially for east of the Mississippi, an extremely large area of wilderness, which just allows, just things like wolf packs, very large numbers of, well, for example, of links and fisher and other animals that are maybe not in the endangered list, but whose numbers have really shrunk. And the other thing is that "Quedico," approximately half of it has never been logged. So it has a huge areas of old growth. So therefore, it's kind of an ecological preserve, in that sense. It contains plants and animals that just decrease in numbers as you move away from both a boundary water canoria and from "Quedico." So it's a reservoir of natural things that's really important. It's a place that just holds ideas and everything from the past. And that includes the human history, as well as the natural history. Now, the name of your book is "Quedico" near to nature's heart. What about the heart is so important? Isn't what's important is, you know, downtown where all the lights are bright? Do you dislike cities? Are you an anti-big city? Or what's the proper mix? Why is wilderness important? I guess I do dislike cities to some extent. I love going to Minneapolis and Toronto and Winnipeg and all those places because culturally they are very important. When I first went into the boundary water canoria in "Quedico," the main thing to me was the ecology aspect of it. And now something that I'd like to emphasize is the importance of the human history part. Somebody has once defined wilderness, you know, humorously defined it as where the hand of man has never set foot. But the hand of man set foot in "Quedico" right after the glaciers retreated. So just as much as it's an ecological reserve, it's also a reserve of human history. There's 12,000 years of human history in "Quedico" and the glacier retreated through there, roughly 12,500. Almost everywhere else you get a real decrease in just the awareness that people have of the past. "Quedico" has the highest concentrations of pictographs anywhere in Canada, but besides that, on the campsites that you sleep on, the porridges you go over, a lot of those were established 12,000 years ago at the end of the ice age. So it literally is a place that has human history that's still in the ground, it hasn't been plowed, lots of it has never been logged. It's a really important place for people to get in touch with not only the ecology of the area, but the human history also. - Let's talk, John, about an overview of the book. You're not a one subject type of person. There's history in there, going back to the Paleolithic. You've got locations in the park. You describe different areas, what they're like. You talk about plants and animals, and you also have portions on philosophy or spirituality. It's something that's also related, of course, to archeology. Give us some interesting highlights of the book, if you will, some of your personal favorites. - My main interest at the very beginning was where the plants and animals were found in cortical. And then after getting to know guides from the Lachlochroi, First Nation, and seeing pictographs and finding arrowheads, the usual things that people do in cortical, I got really interested in that correlation basically between natural history and human history. I did research on old quarries in cortical. And when you get interested in old quarries, rock formations, stone use for stone tools, then you get interested in geology. When you get interested in geology, you start looking back at the ice age. So you start to really spread out your interests over a wide field. The book basically starts with the ice age and then moves up to the present. Within there, I get into the human history of the park, the Pailey-Wendians, who arrived right after the glaciers retreated. Then I just go back to bypass, and then I have sections in there on old growth forests and on orchids, on carnivorous plants. Then I also go into special areas or special places in cortical that have been really important to me, places that I find of a particular interest, whether because of the human history or because of their natural history. So why don't you tell us about one or two of those special places in the park, places you have special connection with, John? - Yeah, I have five chapters on particular locations. So I guess the one I'll mention here is a place called the Pines on Picker Lake. As you can tell from the name, what really attracts people to this place is that it has great big old mature white pines, and it faces right onto a very large lake. And it contains a very, very large sand beach, probably the largest sand beach in cortical. So that in itself is important, but then when I became an archeologist and started looking into the human history of cortical, I found out that there had been paleo-Indian points there, and paleo-Indian points are the first known people to move into cortical. They basically moved in just after the glacier had retreated. Then when I started looking into the past and glacier retreats and so on, I found out that Picker Lake used to be on the edge of what was known as Lake Agassi, a lake larger than all five of the Great Lakes put together. So this lake was formed as the glacier retreated, the enormous amount of water that was found frozen up into glacial ice, obviously melted, and then it couldn't drain to the south fast enough, so it just kept growing. And it reached the point where the eastern edge was on the Pines in Queticle Park, and at that point you could put in at the pines, or so they think, and paddle all the way to Manitoba. And then if you turn south, you could paddle all the way down close to where I grew up in southern Minnesota. So the pines has this amazing, just, it's an amazing place. Paleo-Indian camp there, voyagers camp there, early park rangers camp there, and basically people have been camping in this spot for 12,000 years. I think that there's something majestic about these trees that have lived there for really hundreds of years. They are beings that have value, from my point of view. I do believe that there are other people who think, when they see that kind of a tree, that is simply an untapped economic resource. How do you react to that idea? - I think like anybody who lives in North America, I mean, I read books, I use paper, I live in a house, that has two by four studs, and all of that. So I'm not opposed to logging, virtually nobody's opposed to logging. But it's the idea that we eliminate everything, that you cut down virtually all of the old growth. I think it's really important from a spiritual point of view from an ecological point of view, just to maintain some of it. And what's been retained in Ontario, and probably roughly the same in Minnesota, is just a tiny, tiny fraction of what was here before. And in places like Minnesota and Wisconsin, they just have more people, and more economic pressure put on the resources, it's probably way less than 1%. So I think economically, it doesn't hurt to set aside these areas. And from the point of view of canoeists, and long-term economic growth, undoubtedly I think is a good idea to set aside these areas. - Do you have some favorite plants, things that maybe we don't know about? I think even though it's not terribly far from here to Thunder Bay, I think that the ecology can be significantly different. So you went from Montevideo in Minnesota, north a couple hundred miles, and all of a sudden the ecology is different. Do you have special plants that are favorite discoveries from the time up there? - One of them is what I was just talking about. For some reason, I think maybe most people really attracted to huge monstrous white pine. And where I grew up, I was kind of on a very, very southern edge of where white pine grow. And then in Queticle Park, it's not at the northern edge, but it's getting close to the northern edge of white pine. But there, there's still big areas that haven't been logged. And one of my favorite places in Queticle was a place called Lake called McNeese Lake, and it's near the middle of Queticle, and it's completely surrounded by old growth white pine. ♪ Four hundred years ago ♪ ♪ A sea chance fallen grew ♪ ♪ In virgin forest land ♪ ♪ That never white man knew ♪ ♪ In woodland silence ♪ ♪ It rose and flourished ♪ ♪ My northern wind was shaped ♪ ♪ From earth and sky was nourished ♪ ♪ White pine, silver birch ♪ ♪ Sing their names in requiem ♪ ♪ Giants of our northern land ♪ ♪ We'll never see your likes again ♪ ♪ White pine, silver birch ♪ ♪ Sing their names in requiem ♪ ♪ Giants of our northern land ♪ ♪ We'll never see your likes again ♪ ♪ Two hundred years ago ♪ ♪ The giants ruled the shield ♪ ♪ You'll white man game ♪ ♪ It's all the profits they could yield ♪ ♪ They fell like thunder ♪ ♪ And left no trace ♪ ♪ But giant stumps that stand ♪ ♪ As headstones in their place ♪ ♪ White pine, silver birch ♪ ♪ Sing their names in requiem ♪ ♪ Giants of our northern land ♪ ♪ We'll never see your likes again ♪ ♪ White pine, silver birch ♪ ♪ Sing their names in requiem ♪ ♪ Giants of our northern land ♪ ♪ We'll never see your likes again ♪ ♪ In north Ontario ♪ ♪ Some giants still remain ♪ ♪ Though few in number now ♪ ♪ The axman comes again ♪ ♪ What will you tell them ♪ ♪ When your children ask you why ♪ ♪ One last remaining forest ♪ ♪ Giants have to die ♪ ♪ White pine, silver birch ♪ ♪ Sing their names in requiem ♪ ♪ Giants of our northern land ♪ ♪ We'll never see your likes again ♪ ♪ White pine, silver birch ♪ ♪ Sing their names in requiem ♪ ♪ The giants of our northern land ♪ ♪ We'll never see your likes again ♪ - A little musical interlude. The song is Requiem for the Giants by Aline McCann, completely apropos of the discussion I'm having with today's spirit and action guest, John Nelson, author of "Quedicle, Close to Nature's Heart." You were speaking, John, about places and specifically plants that you have connection to in "Quedicle." Do you have more to say about that? - So these kind of places I really like. And the other thing is that wherever you have old growth, you're also gonna have other plants that are relatively rare because they're associated with old growth forests. I've come across only in a few places, wild ginger, for example, in "Quedicle," which is evidently fairly common in Wisconsin, but rare there, but it's found among old growth forests. - I think, John, you're headed down to Madison to give a talk, what kind of presentation is that? - Yes, I'm giving a talk at a gathering called "Kunukopia," which is kind of an outdoor show combined with numerous speakers talking about things related to canoeing and kayaking and just general things outdoors. My talk is gonna be on the ice age legacy of "Quedicle." I just thought that this is something that a lot of people don't have a lot of knowledge of. And when you go into a place like "Quedicle Park" and have some idea of the background and the importance of the glaciers, then you get some sort of feel for some of the appeal of "Quedicle." I grew up in Southern Minnesota and it was a wonderful place. I fished in the rivers there and just did all sorts of things. It was, I guess a typical Minnesota boyhood. But when I went into "Quedicle," there was what I've never seen before. We took our cups and we dipped and drank and drank out of the lakes. I mean, I wouldn't have even dreamt of dipping my cup and drinking out of the Chippewa River as it flowed through Montevideo. And the other thing is that instead of stepping on rich black earth and mud and so on, I stepped out of the canoe on the bedrock, which was just an amazing feeling for me because I'd never seen bedrock before. I mean, there's a little bit of exposure as a bedrock near Montevideo. But in "Quedicle," it's everywhere. I mean, you paddle up to the side of a cliff and put your hand out and you're touching bedrock. So for me, that combination of bedrock and clear clean water was just a revelation. Even though I'd never seen it before, I just felt home in that sort of environment. - And John, what about the animals that you've encountered there? If you spent time as a park ranger, you certainly had plenty of opportunities to encounter the wildlife. Any particular special sightings, experiences that stay with your heart? - Yeah, wolves, I think, are the... I think almost everybody finds wolves really fascinating and there's nothing to be afraid of. I mean, there's been maybe one or two examples in all of North America over hundreds and hundreds of years of anybody being killed by a wolf. So there's nothing to be afraid of, but they're just a fascinating predator. And one time when we first were in "Quedicle," we heard rumors that people were hearing wolves a lot over on the western side of the lake. So I paddled over there and went walking on a real old logging road. Parts about half a quarticle has been logged. So this was an old logging road, but you could still make it out and walk down it. And as I was going down, I saw three wolves that were running jogging fairly slowly towards me. They saw me at the same time I saw them and they spun around and were gone. And I thought, well, that was neat, but that's the end of that. And then I remembered being a kid, taking a piece of grass and having my father, somebody tell me if you blow on the grass, that it makes this kind of weird, high-pitched sound. It sounds like an animal dying. They will attract predators. So I crouched behind a boulder and tried it. I almost believe it or not. About two or three minutes later, out came trotting from behind some jack pine, came a wolf. And he jumped up into a log about 50 feet from me. And I was able to take a couple of pictures. The shutter clicked. The wolf looked over and was, you could just see his eyes got big and he literally fell off the log. I mean, wolves are very afraid of humans, for good reason, are afraid of humans. And then he was gone. But that was interesting to be that close to a predator and having him at least for a split second or maybe two or three seconds, being unaware that I was there. So later, when I told people this story, they always have the same reply. It must have been a very young, immature, not very weary wolf. And I'm sure that's the case. But nevertheless, it was exciting. And then other times I've also seen wolves, but usually at more of a distance. And one time when I was doing an archeological survey, we were paddling along the lake. The guy from Lachlachoy, who I was with, just silently kind of pointed up on a hillside. And we just paddled along. And I looked and looked and I couldn't see anything. And all of a sudden I saw a little bit of a movement. And there was a wolf there that was nursing a young one. And then he saw, or she saw me and then stood up and then the young stopped nursing and they trotted off. So that was a very brief exposure where I saw this wolf nursing a young. But that also was very exciting. And almost every moose encounter is paddling up a creek and coming around the corner and having a huge bull moose standing and the creek eating is just amazing. Your immediate reflux is almost always the jam on the brakes and start to paddle backwards. They are big animals, though they're fairly intimidating. I imagine that you could be in more danger with a moose than with a wolf. - Yes, and that happens occasionally in Northwestern Ontario. Like four or five years ago, a moose hunter who I think was hunting by bow and arrow and it called out a moose. So there's this bull moose who thought that there's another bull moose in the area. So it was a little bit on edge and probably riled up a little bit. And then this guy, I think what he said is that he got a little bit wary because the moose was getting too close. So he jumped out from behind, I think he's standing behind a big white pine or something and jumped out and evidently he so startled the moose that the moose just automatically charged. Basically ran over him. Said the guy just came too. He thought it was like 15 or 20 minutes later. He had a big gash across his forehead. So he thinks that the moose just charged him and knocked him over and then just left. But still that would be quite scary to have that happen. - You worked up there as a ranger for a number of years, you and your wife. I was wondering what the work of a ranger in Quetico Park is? - Park Rangers, I guess for the last, oh I don't know maybe 30 or 40 years, their main job is to sell park permits. So you have these six ranger stations around the outside of the park and people come into the ranger station and that's where they buy their park permits and fishing licenses and so on. And then the other really important thing and what I really like about the Quetico system is that everybody goes through a ranger station. So you can talk to people. If you've heard about bear problems in a certain area, you can tell them about it. If you've heard that there's real high water in a certain area and they have to be extra careful because of rapids, you can tell them about that. If there's been blowdowns, blocking portages. So it gives that kind of a personal contact with people from the park that you kind of lack in many other parks. And they're getting out slightly away from this, but it used to be when we worked in the park, everybody who came in had to go through a ranger station. Now there's a few exceptions, but nevertheless, there is this contact that does allow you to, especially to help out people that don't have a lot of experience canoeing. And if they plan on, we had people coming into Beaver House on the northwest corner of the park who had never conued and they were planning on paddling back to Ili, Minnesota, which is basically angling across the park and their outfitter had told them to go through areas on rivers that had very difficult rapids for in the spring. So because of that, you can talk to them and just show alternate routes. So I think this is really advantageous. But mainly it's to help out people coming into the park. - Do you think, John, that in general, there's a different mindset to the people who go out to places like Cuadico? Does it change people? I'm thinking it does. I mean, I'm assuming that you can't but behold the glories of creation and come away with a different person as you go back, even if you're coming back to the big city. - Yeah, I think it has a big impact on virtually everybody. I know it did on me when I went to, after high school going on a canoe trip, it had a huge impact on me. And almost everybody you talk to, when you see them at a ranger station, when they're going into the park, they seem like different people when they're coming out. And it's hard to explain, but there's just a more relaxed attitude. And I think it just a deeper appreciation for what they've seen. I mean, they may have come into the park just primarily, let's just say to catch fish, which is very common. But when they come out, a lot of times they're talking about some encounter they've had, you know, they may have seen, they probably have seen moose, for example, feeding in the shallow somewhere. They probably saw bald eagles. They may have encountered a variety of animals, you know, possibly a fisher, pine martin, links. So they're gonna remember that, or they may have just, maybe for the first time, they ever stopped to look at wildflowers. Because that's a lot of things that, I know, the first trip, I don't think I ever, if somebody asked me what plants I'd seen, I wouldn't have had a clue, because I just wasn't interested. But when you, I think the longer you go, and the slower you go, the more things you see in the, the more time you take to get down on your hands and knees and look at things like, I mean, things that seem so inconspicuous like lichens. I mean, they're just absolutely fascinating, but you do have to slow down, and sometimes just get down and peer closely at things. - And do as Wendell Berry says, develop a sense of place, that's one of his books, right? A lot of us do not have a sense of place, because we've seen the world only from our motorized vehicle going at 60 miles an hour or something, you don't connect with things. When you go at paddling speeds, things mean something to you. I was wondering, you're living in Ontario, you grew up in Minnesota. You're now a citizen of Canada. You get to see some issues both way. You've got family and friends, certainly, on both sides of the border. How does the approach to a park, like Cuadico, differ from what a wilderness park, maybe B.W.C.A. or something else in the U.S.? Is there a different approach, Canadian versus U.S.? - I think there definitely is, and the reasons I think are maybe very complicated, but from the point of view of Cuadico, the main difference is that most of the, about 90% of the people who come into Cuadico are from the U.S., so it's mainly Americans that come into Cuadico. And the reason for that is not that Canadians value Cuadico Park less, it's just that there's very few people very close to Cuadico Park in Canada. I think I once looked on a map just out of interest, and I think it's farther from Toronto, Ontario, the largest city that's reasonably close in Canada, to Cuadico, I think it's closer to Tulsa, Oklahoma. So there's not a lot of people who live fairly close, a lot of Canadians who live fairly close to Cuadico. So there's not this big economic push coming from the Canadian side to develop Cuadico Park. And the boundary water canoe area is very, very different, because they're relatively close to, well, they're close to Duluth, but they're also close to Minneapolis, fairly close to Milwaukee, Chicago, all of those are probably within a days drive, maybe along these drive of the boundary water canoe area. I think Canada looks at it as a way to set aside a natural area and to put really strict quotas on it. And I suppose they look at it kind of crassly, the Canadians look at it is that they don't really care too much if Americans complain about the fact that the quotas are really strict. I mean, that's probably maybe not a fair way to look at it, but I think there's some truth to that. That Canada has more wild areas, has less population, and therefore is just more careful about setting strict quotas, setting regulations where you can't use motors, having regulations about flying over areas and so on, than the U.S. U.S. has a tougher job with parks because of the enormous pressure that can cause areas to be loved to death, you know? Places like Yosemite and the Grand Canyon, they have to be really careful that you try to minimize human impact. It's just easier for Canada to do that than it is for the U.S. And this is totally a detour from Quetico near to nature's heart, but since we're talking about U.S. versus Canadian policies, and the big buzz in the U.S. right now is are we going to get healthcare reform? One of the things that we hear around the U.S. is that Canadians hate the long delays and the limitations that their healthcare system puts on them and the expense that is involved in having universal healthcare in the way that Canada has it. You've lived in the U.S., you live up in Canada, you're a Canadian citizen. What's your experience? First hand and from the people you know? - Oh, I absolutely love the Canadian healthcare system. I truly absolutely don't know anybody. I don't know a person in Canada who would go back to any other system other than what they have. Two or three years ago, CBC Television had a contest going to determine the most respected person in Canada, and this goes all the way back. And people basically expected somebody like Trudeau or some politician to win this. And a politician did win it, and it was the premier of Saskatchewan guy named Tommy Douglas, because he was a person who first set aside socialized healthcare in the province of Saskatchewan. And he's just incredibly respected for that. There seems to be just, when I listening to the debates and stuff in the States, there seems to be a lot of misconceptions. Like, there isn't a health system set up for Canada. I mean, Canada doesn't have a health system. Each province has an individual system. They all have evolved to become fairly similar, but the idea that everybody pays into the same healthcare system and everything is open to everybody equally is just to me just a common sense thing. I mean, we have all sorts of socialized policies throughout the world. I mean, our highway systems, our libraries, our educational schools, et cetera. So the idea to me to extend this to healthcare just makes all sorts of sense. Of course, I mean, nobody says that the Canadian healthcare system is perfect. And at times, people probably do have to wait. And I just don't know if there's any difference between waiting times between Canada and the US. But it's easy to find one or two cases of somebody having to wait six months or something for some particular procedure. Certainly, that's possible. But the idea that anybody, no matter what your income, no matter what your employment, that if you have some sort of illness, like if you need open heart surgery and you're an unemployed logger, then in Canada, you just have it done. And it costs you absolutely nothing over and above the things that you pay into the system to begin with. But it's the idea that everybody pays into the same system that makes it, to me, just a better, more affordable way of doing things. Doesn't this mean that they tax 100% of your income or something? I'm not sure. The tax system, it's possible that we pay a little bit more in taxes than they do in the States. I really just don't know any specifics on that. But the tax rates in Canada are not, from my point of view, are not exorbitant. Well, there's one more area I'd like to approach. And I want to have you read a section of your book. Again, the book is "Quadico, Near to Nature's Heart" by John Nelson, who's with me here today for Spirit and Action. This is a Northern Spirit radio production. And so that means that you can go out to my website, northernspiritradio.org. And you can listen to this program, find links, including to a website where you can find out where to buy John's book. Go to Borders or any of the other bookstores or even better, go to your local bookstore and ask them to carry it. You can also find out more about it, more about "Quadico" and more about John via his site, which is john-nelson.com. And that's John spelled J-O-N. He's economical in terms of letters in his name. Nelson, that's N-E-L-S-O-N.com. And you'll find pictures and other wonderful treasures that John has gathered over the years. John, I wanted to ask you one last thing. And that was about religion. First of all, your religion, you grew up, how you identify now. And I want you to read the afterword to the book, because I think it does such a wonderful job of putting the whole thing into a big picture. So did you have religious upbringing? Do you do something now? And how does that fit with "Quadico" and your attitudes about wilderness? Yes, I grew up as a Lutheran. And most of my parents were very strong Lutherans and were very strong religiously. Doubledly, that had a big impact on me. And I also went to Concordia College in Moorhead, Minnesota, which is a Lutheran college. And I don't know, for me, this is very complex and I don't really understand things about religion. Because I no longer go to church, and yet I think I'm a very religious person. So it's a difficult question for me to answer. I'm not really sure. I feel very spiritual. I know a lot of people who belong to different religions and have read a bit about Buddhism and all of that. So the spiritual part, I guess like everybody, I'm very much kind of in awe and obviously in favor of the whole idea of spiritualism. The idea of religion, however, is something that's too complex for me to even attempt to answer. That's a cop out, but I just need a lot more time and probably more brain power to talk really effectively about religion. Well, maybe if we're fortunate, we'll have you back and you'll have time to process and you'll have it all worked out. But in the meantime, would you be willing to read with us the afterword from Quetico near to nature's heart? Yes, I'll be happy to read the afterwards in my book. My ancestors lived for generations on homesteads and in small villages along the Sonya Fiorda Norway. During their long tenure on the land, they became an integral part of the fabric of Norway and developed beliefs and attitudes deeply rooted in the Norwegian soil. After just five generations of ancestors in the United States and having lived less than four decades in Canada, my North American roots are still shallow and I have only developed a tenuous appreciation of my environment and my place in it. My attraction to archaeology is probably the result of my desire to obtain a better understanding of how people in the past adapted to the environment and lived without damaging it to the extent we do today. I had an anthropology professor at Trent University who loved repeating the old maxim. The past is a different country. They do things differently there. We can undoubtedly learn from both the success and failures of these past cultures, especially from those who lived in the area we now call home. Obtaining a better understanding of our natural and cultural environment is an ongoing process for all of us and other cultures, both past and present, undoubtedly have solutions we have overlooked or discarded. People with European ancestry, such as myself, are either recent arrivals in North America or descendants of relatively recent immigrants. After 500 years, we still stubbornly persist in acting as though we are visitors rather than permanent residents who feel fully at home. As a result, we treat our adopted homeland as a collection of resources to be exploited, but little thought given to the welfare of future generations. We've also been slow in developing a spiritual connection, once common among North Americans to the land. The writer and poet Gary Snyder has stated that he has a deep hope that we might all, regardless of our countries of origin, become native North Americans. He quoted a crow elder who noted, you know, I think if people stay somewhere long enough, even white people, I think he meant that ironically, even white people, the spirits will begin to speak to them. It is the power of the spirits coming from the land. The spirits and the old powers aren't lost. They just need people to be around long enough and the spirits will begin to influence them. With only Norwegian ancestors, not many people are whiter than I am, but there is still hope that the spirits of the land will start speaking to me more clearly. I hope that my children and their descendants will develop a deep appreciation for the Canadian landscape and the cultural mosaic they have inherited from other Canadians, native and non-native, who preceded them. Only then will they be able to experience the power of the surroundings and come to feel like native Canadians. Ontario writer, Jill Frane describes a moment of connection between herself and the landscape, feeling as if she was held in the land, not separate in a part from it, just another sentient creature, another form of shrub or mountain. There have been times and quite a goal, snowshoeing a desk along the French River, ambling along the ancient sand beach at the Pines on Pickerel Lake, paddling beneath the cliffs of Otter track Lake, walking beneath the giant Pines on McNeese Lake, or simply sitting around the campfire in the evening when I profoundly felt that I am, as Jill Frane once said, held in the land, not separate in a part from it. Time spent exploring critical is delightful. Writing about critical, on the other hand, is difficult for me, even painful at times. While working on this book, I have spent too many hours sitting in front of a computer and not enough time outside with friends investigating the world around me. After reading and writing so many words, I feel the need to engage in more explorations and excursions that fire both the body and the mind. It is time for me to heed the words of Danish professor, Petter Sorensen, who went in 1571, wrote, "Go, my sons, burn your books and buy yourselves stout shoes. "Get away to the mountains, the deserts, "and the deep recesses of the earth. "In this way and in no other will you gain "a true knowledge of things and of their properties. "So long, I'm off to buy stout shoes." - That's a wonderful conclusion to a really rich book. Thank you so much, John, for sharing this glimpse of creation with us. Quantico, near to nature's heart. Again, you can find it via my website, northernspiritradio.org. And John, just go forth and get those stout shoes in motion and have a great time out in the wilderness. - Yeah, thank you, I really enjoyed this. Yeah, I hope some of you can make it up to Quantico and if not, it isn't. - So much Quantico, it's just getting into wild areas near to where you live. - We've been visiting with John Nelson, website, J-O-N-N-E-L-S-O-N.com, about his book, "Quetico, Close to Nature's Heart." And what better way to send you off for this edition of "Spirit in Action" than with a song performed by Claudia Schmidt and Sally Rogers, it's called "Quetico." ♪♪♪ ♪ I just don't know what else to do ♪ ♪ I need to come back home to you again ♪ ♪ To reach my pain ♪ ♪ To smell the air, to hear a loom ♪ ♪ To touch the stars, to feel the moon ♪ ♪ It sets my soul to singing ones again ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ I'm lost and so alone here in this throne ♪ ♪ I've lost the sight of right and wrong ♪ ♪ It's been so long ♪ ♪ To see God's creatures running free ♪ ♪ Alive and in the place they ought to be ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ Where silence is no cause for fright ♪ ♪ And time is when you stop and when you start ♪ ♪ For live the part of all you show ♪ ♪ Have been beaten, take all you need ♪ ♪ To live within the stronger new ♪ ♪ That takes you to the heart ♪ ♪ Of "Quetico" ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ To drink the waters crystal clear ♪ ♪ Return it in its joyful tears that falls ♪ ♪ To share it all ♪ ♪ But someone else like you and me ♪ ♪ Who's never felt so sure or free ♪ ♪ As when we met the land and heard the call ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ We're lost in so alone here in this throng ♪ ♪ We've lost the sight of right and wrong ♪ ♪ It's been so long to smell the air ♪ ♪ To hear a moon, to touch the stars ♪ ♪ To feel the moon, it sets my soul to sing ♪ ♪ One song again ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ ♪ "Quetico" ♪ The theme music for this program is "Turning of the World" performed by Sarah Thompson. This Spirit in Action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radial. You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website, NorthernSpiritRadial.org. Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Mark Helpsmeet, and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. And our lives will feel the echo of our healing. You