Spirit in Action
Honduran Witness and US CO's - Father Melo plus Center on Conscience and War
[music] ♪ Let us sing this song for the healing of the world ♪ ♪ That we may hear as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpsmeak. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. ♪ Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world ♪ ♪ That we may dream as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ We'll be talking to two different guests today for Spirit in Action. One, a lawyer on conscience, subjection rights in Washington, D.C. And the other, a Jesuit priest from Honduras, working to rebuild the rights of the people there since the coup last June. Good people all over the globe, working for peace and justice for all humanity. We'll speak with J.E. McNeil of the Center on Conscience more later, but we'll start with Father Ishmael Moreno, commonly known as Father Malo. I heard about his planned visits to Chicago and Milwaukee via the Wisconsin Action Alliance's network. Father Malo's visit to Milwaukee was co-sponsored by the local chapter of the National Lawyers Guild. The Latin America Solidarity Committee, Peace Action Wisconsin, the progressive students of Milwaukee, and the Wisconsin Coalition to Normalize Relations with Cuba. What called it especially to my attention was the subject of Father Moreno's talk, the situation in Honduras, after the military coup, the role of the media, the church, and people's movements. The fact that the church was in the mix seemed to me an important factor of the situation. Father Malo is, as I mentioned, the Jesuit priest, director of radio progresso in Honduras, and also director of the ERIC Center in English, the team for community reflection and study, which sponsors study of what religious phenomena mobilize or demobilize society, and they analyze the political culture that allows the government to be the property of the elite. They also sponsor an eight-month formation with modules on gender, the environment, human rights, and more. I was able to get Father Malo's by phone with the aid of some of the organizers for his visit by Beth Grino in Milwaukee and Alexi Lanza in Chicago, and Vicki Cervantes graciously served as translator, since my Spanish is rather limited. And especially because my Spanish is limited, we're going to play a song by Holly Neer in Spanish to welcome Father Malo. The song is "Todavia Cantamos" and still we sing, and it speaks of the blows, the pain, the hate, and the losses that we overcome with our songs, questioning, dreaming, and hoping. We'll speak to Father Malo in a moment, but first "Todavia Cantamos" by Holly Neer. [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Father Malo, thank you so much for joining me for Spirit in Action. [Music] Since the coup d'état, and in particular since the new administration of Puerto Rico or global, the situation related to human rights has gotten worse. The country is in an economic situation much worse, and the organizations that are in opposition to the coup d'état are in a much more difficult position. In the first month of this new administration, there have been recorded more than 250 cases of human rights violations. We have seen the assassination of people in opposition or the assassination of people close to those in opposition. We have seen cases of women who were violated during the Mitchell Lette administration who have been again captured and sexually violated under this new administration. There is a threat. What we've seen is the communication media Satanizing the opposition in order to set up the conditions for a bigger repression. The truth is we are in a situation of greater uncertainty, greater instability, greater insecurity for the people out there. For that reason, those of us in Honduras who are monitoring and reporting on human rights violations are very greatly preoccupied by the recent declaration of the Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. To say that the current government must be recognized and that money must be sent to it, aid must be restored, is very worrisome and very irresponsible. For us, the restoration of the aid and recognition of the government must be immediately linked to the ceasing of human rights violations in Honduras. It has to be linked to an investigation of all the cases of human rights violations beginning on June 28, 2009 and continuing to the moment under the administration of Puerto Rico global. It makes us very sad to see Secretary Clinton talk about the restoration of aid without at the same time insisting that it be linked to the investigation of the human rights violations immediately. So that is why we would like to use bases such as this to ask that the citizens of the United States not only be informed about the situation but that they demand that any restoration of aid recognition be linked to meeting these conditions. And it's important to us that you understand that the dignity of the most unprotected sectors in Honduras is at great risk right now. To defend the dignity of the most unprotected is also an act of service to the divinity of God. Since January 27, the dignity and the well-being of the people of Honduras is at risk and in that way also that means that the dignity lives of the sons and daughters of God are at risk. Asking Secretary Clinton to recognize and to take action on human rights violations is the best way for us to renovate our call to God. It is an act of divinity to defend the human rights because this is the best way to defend the divinity of God. So I ask you not to forget about Honduras when our country now has the greatest need ever for your attention because we are at risk that our sons and daughters will lose their lives and their dignity. I have a lot of different questions about what you just spoke about, Father Mero. Amongst them I was wondering if giving aid or withholding aid from the people of Honduras, will that help or hurt the people of Honduras? Honduras needs economic support from the international community because without the international economic support the country continues to sink. So the question is not whether or not Honduras needs the aid because it is absolutely urgent. The key point is that the current administration is the continuation of the coup d'etat and that administration is seeking to utilize the international recognition to reinforce exclusion. So the international economic support in this framework of this administration that aims at exclusion, that international aid will not arrive to the poor. And it will be used to strengthen a regime of exclusion of the people. So for that reason we demand that any aid sent to the administration is conditioned upon that administration, improving the human rights situation and that that aid goes towards the development that will benefit the people. And the condition for which the aid could arrive is that a truth commission exists that is investigating all of the human rights violations. And that investigation will show that because of the people who are in power in this administration it cannot meet the condition that the aid would arrive to the hands of the people that most needed. We have reasons to say that at this moment any economic aid stays in the hands of the rich of Honduras. And for that reason the international aid will legitimize corruption and repression. Should we be talking to our politicians or is there another way in which we from the United States can offer our support to the people of Honduras? There are three ways to help Honduras. The first is to inform the population in the United States about what is really going on in Honduras and what this new administration really represents. The second thing you can do to support knock on the doors of the functionaries and politicians of the United States. That is to say lobbying, seeking out the politicians so that they make Honduras an item on their agenda. And that said understanding that at the very least the government of the United States has been ambiguous in its position towards the situation in Honduras. And the United States has at least a part in the culpability for these violations because they do support the police and the military in Honduras. And a specific thing is that the U.S. Congress members and the administration in the White House should ensure that the truth commission is totally independent and carries out a full investigation. And that the current administration in Honduras is forced to fulfill the recommendations of the truth commission and hold responsible perpetrators of the human rights violations. The third way you can support us is the physical presence of observers accompanying the movement in Honduras so that they can see with their own eyes what is going on there. So they can offer more security to the popular movement leaders and to the human rights organizations and to the independent media that are criticizing and monitoring the government. I hope that our listeners can join in to participate in all three of those ways that we can help you out. I understand, Father Mello, that you are the director for radio progresso. At one point when the coup happened, you were shut down for a day, then you were open the next day. My question is, have you been allowed to continue your work of getting the word out to the people of Honduras? Radio progresso was shut down the day of the coup. That is on June 28, 2009, and we decided the day after the coup on our own that we would reopen the radio. We have continued to do so under threats and warnings. We have continued to offer our news, our critiques and our word of faith. We have received warnings and strong criticism from different sectors who are intimately linked to the coup d'état, and that includes from a sector of the religious. And as things go for the sectors of the population most defenseless, so it goes for radio progresso as well. So as we do our communication work, if the sector of the population that is most opposed to the coup is receiving threats and violence and risk from the government, so then does radio progresso receive the same. The women in the moment were receiving threats and criticism that would be very sad that if radio progresso was being faded and congratulated by the hierarchies of power in the country. We at radio progresso, of course, never look for persecution, just as the people of Honduras never look for persecution, but we are a part of the struggle for dignity. I believe, Father Mero, your Jesuit, how is religious-based activism different from general political activism? Is there a difference? I believe our faith is a faith in the mystery of the incarnation. This tells us that history is the carrier of God, that God makes known his love through what happens in reality. And for that reason, also our faith can only be incarnated in reality and in the reality of the world in which we actually live. For that reason, the reality of the poor is the place from which we dialogue with the reality of the world, and that is the place where we find the exchange and the contact between those with an explicit faith in the evangelical of God. And with those who don't have that explicit faith, what are through their actions carrying out that faith, only that which is loyal in relation to the people who are poor, so that our commitment is not only based in the explicit explanation of God, but rather in the actual reality in which we find it. And our faith and our commitment goes way beyond the confession, but rather it's in the reality of those who suffer the most, whether or not they go to the mass or don't go to mass. So in that way, radio progresso is not a Catholic confessional radio station, but rather a radio of Christian inspiration. We have only one program that's explicitly a program of faith every day, but we are convinced based on our faith that all of the programs of radio progresso is bathed in God. And that allows us to have a communication with all of Honduran society, and not only one small portion, because from our Christian faith, God is born to offer his love and salvation to all of humanity. Because it's the weakest, the most defenseless, for the criteria, for the salvation of all of humanity. Are they largely supportive of this work, the Catholic Church and the other churches, to support the people of Honduras, that you Father Melo and others are doing, like with radio progresso? We have to understand very well that the Church is part of reality, it is a part of society. And if society is highly polarized and divided, how would it be that the Church did not have internal division? And the Church is profoundly divided. And the Church is in need of a process of debate and reconciliation. Because what's going on inside the Church is a political problem in which a sector of the Church hierarchy explicitly protects and defends the oligarchy. And this is in contrast with another sector of the Church that understands and believes that faith is based on its position with the poor. So there is a sector of the Church, especially the hierarchy that repudiates the work of radio progresso. For myself and for us, it's a blessing that they repudiate us. We and myself in particular have a profound love for this sector. And so in the name of faith, we insist that they convert, because the enthusiastic criteria cannot be above the evangelical criteria. So the mission of the Church has to unite the announcement of a new world with the denouncing of those who are impeding the arrival of this new world based on the testimony of its members. And that mission is not being lived by the hierarchical sector who are defending the rich of the country. Nevertheless, radio progresso receives the phone calls, the closest with the participation of many, many who feel and who express that they have not lost their faith and that their faith has been strengthened thanks to radio progresso. The Bible has, I believe, at times been used to motivate and inspire and lift up the people. And at other times, it's been used to keep the people in chains in submission. How do you see and use the Bible in your work, Father Mello? I understand the Bible is the word of God to be a collection of the experience of people who found their liberation through their faith in God. But I can't use the Bible sticking to the strict interpretation of the writing of the Bible. The Bible is an inspiration, not a blueprint. If I were to use the Bible as an exact reading of its text, that would be a fundamentalist practice. I use the Bible as an inspiration in order to see reality through the light of God. But reality is the historical criteria for finding God. The Bible helps me personally to find a focus of this reality. But if I just repeat what's in the Bible, I'm not being faithful to God. The Bible is a help for me to refound and fertilize my faith through looking back to the ages. There are people and groups in the Church who use the Bible as if it were an untouchable truth. Those who do that are not seeing reality, and therefore their practice is a dogmatic practice, sectarian practice, and fundamentalist. And these are the groups who at the current time in Honduras are giving legitimacy to the sectors who are using violence, who are using the violence to keep themselves in power. These religious sectors are neoconservatives who provide ideological support to those who support them with money. We use the Bible as an instrument of support in order to live our faith, walking in history. I would like to invite you Father Mello to share a prayer with our listeners for whatever you need right now, whatever prayer you want to lift up to God right now. Here's our prayer to God of life, for giving us the gift of this planet, for the forest, clouds, the seas and the rivers, for the air, for the five continents, and for all of nature. For the blacks and for the whites, for the Asians, and for all of the human beings of all races, of all cultures, and of all religions. We pray for your infinite love. We love you for acting in favor of the forest, for opening our vision, breaking the chains of oppression, and for beating with our dignified hearts. Take us on the correct path of dignity, justice, solidarity, and peace. Give us your embrace, share your tenderness, give us your solar, share your heart so that your sons and daughters share in tenderness, love, peace, and in solidarity, the commitment to carry it fully forward, your work of love. We ask that you stay with us at one single people without religion, but with faith in the life that you have given us and with full faith in a future that will be only full of love and peace, that this be. Thank you so much for your prayer, Father Mello. I want to thank you, Father Mello, for all of your work, and I certainly pray that God strengthen and guide you in that work. I also want to thank you, Vicki, for serving as our interpreter today. Thank you. It's been a joy to spend some time with both of you. I look forward to more times hearing from you, and really, Father Mello, as you go back, you do take my prayers and prayers of many of our listeners with you. Thank you very much. God bless you. That was Father Smile Moreno, translated by Vicki Svantes. Father Mello is Jesuit priest and director of Radio Progresso in Honduras, speaking about the situation on the ground in Honduras, since the coup there last June. This is Spirit in Action, and my name is Mark Helpsmeet, host of this Northern Spirit Radio production. Find links to our guests and listen or download any of our programs from our site, NorthernSpiritRadio.org. We welcome your feedback at our site as well. This program originates via WHYS, LP, Eau Claire, Wisconsin, on the web at WHYSradio.org. We have a second guest today on Spirit in Action, Attorney J. E. McNeil, director of the Center on Conscience and More. When I received their newsletter, The Reporter for Conscience Sake, I was struck by some of the items that they had to share. One article was about a Dr. Timothy Watson, radiologist with the military, who had filed for conscience, subjector honorable discharge from the U.S. Army. He told the Army, "I prefer going to jail, over killing or being part of an institution that kills. I prefer to die rather than to kill." The Army refused his application. He appealed in the U.S. courts, and his discharge was upheld by the U.S. Court of Appeals. I failed to reach either Dr. Watson or his attorney, Raymond Tunney, but was fortunate to get through to J. E. McNeil of the Center on Conscience and More. She was last with us a few years ago, a powerful and thoughtful advocate for the rights of conscientious objectors, and it's a pleasure to have her back. J. E. Welcome back to Spirit and Action. Thank you for having me. It's been a few years since I spoke to you for Spirit and Action, how things have been going at the Center for Conscience and More in the meantime. Well, we've had a real increase of people applying for conscientious objector or discharge from the military, and we, like every other nonprofit in the country, have had a certain struggle financially with the economic downturn. Has the bulk of your work shifted in any way? Was it working with COs before you have done a lot of education in terms of preparation for draft? Well, we continue to do preparation for draft, but the primary focus I would say now is CO discharges from the military. Another emphasis is with truth and recruiting, helping provide support for people who do truth and recruiting, which is commonly known as counter recruitment at a local level. So we provide them materials and training and information, but we still do the draft work. In fact, we just spent a day over at Selective Service arguing with them about their regulations. It's sort of a entertaining way to kill a day. As I recall from the draft education back in the day that I took a few years ago, you said that they consider you really to be the preeminent expert, and then they come to you for consultation about what their statutes and what the whole provisions are. Is that still the case, or am I over speaking? I think you might be over speaking just a tad. We're certainly the preeminent organization other than Selective Service, and they certainly do consult with us. And that was, in fact, what we were doing over at Selective Service the other day is talking about the regulations they have and what problems we saw with it and whether or not that we could convince them to change some of them. And we were successful at getting them to change one in particular that we were quite concerned about for conscientious objectors, but we're not always successful, and I certainly don't always do just what we tell them to. I received the recent copy of the reporter for Conscience Sake, the newsletter that you put out, and it had a couple very interesting articles in it that grabbed my attention. One of them, entitled says, "U.S. Court of Appeals upholds conscience, subject or discharge." It's not an article you wrote, but it was written by Attorney Raymond Tony. And he talks about a situation. Now, had you been involved in this CO request from Timothy Watson? Had you been involved in the beginning, or how did this come along? We had been consulted with from time to time on this CO application, but we had not been the principal on it from the beginning. What we did end up doing was working with the New York ACLU and writing an amicus brief when it went to the appellate level. So what's the issue here? Why is this doctor who wanted out of the military on conscientious grounds? Why the big long drawn out, I think, court process about what this doctor wanted? The military wrongfully turned him down and basically didn't follow their own regulations in the process of turning him down. They didn't give a reason, basically, for turning him down, which is against their own regulations. And so when we went to court saying, "You have to let him go because you didn't get a reason," they then started saying, "Well, no, we should be able to have an opportunity to give a reason." And we argued that it was silly for them to get another bite at the apple since the regulations in the court crisis had been quite clear since the 1970s that they had to give a reason. And it was, in our opinion, just another delaying tactic to keep him in that much longer, even though he rightfully deserved his honorable discharge. Timothy Watson is just one of the people you work with. What's your normal call volume and the number of people that you actually start doing some kind of a court or a court referral process with? Our call volume varies wildly, but I would say we average between 200 to 600 calls per month depending on what's going on in the world. Most of those people are people calling about, "I joined the military and it wasn't what I was promised," or "I found out that I didn't like it," or "I got hurt and they're not giving me a discharge." Those kind of calls, just sort of general calls, that we can give them basic advice on how to get through the system and how to get the discharge they deserve. A significantly growing number of them have been people who join the military and conclude it that they are conscious of subjectors that they not only don't want to be in the military, but they don't want to be in the military because they feel because of deeply held moral, ethical, religious views that they cannot participate in war. That number, it's always kind of interesting to us. We noticed that right after the general elections in November, that number surged, and we got quite a few calls asking us for help. Not all of those calls end up with people applying for conscientious objector discharge because some of them find that they're actually easier ways to get out of the military, but a significant number of them do, and so we help them go through the process. And just recently, because that's now been almost a year, most of those applications that we helped last fall are in the process where they are getting their discharges, and we're very happy that most of them are having success stories. Were you implying perhaps that the past election, what happened was maybe we have an administration that's more favorable to allowing people to get out on conscience subjector grounds? Is that a difference in this administration from what was happening when George W. Bush was president? No, because the administration really has virtually nothing to do with people getting in or out of the military on conscientious objector grounds that's done by the military itself, and I don't think the military is somehow miraculously overnight changed. We're not clear why so many people at that point decided to apply for conscientious objector discharge. It's more of an interesting timeframe than something I can point to. And according to the GAO report that came out approximately a year prior to that, they maintained it about 50% of the people who apply for CO discharge are successful, although we disagree with them on that, but it does appear to be an increase in successes. It's certainly an increase in successes on our end of things, but we tend to have a better success rate than 50% anyway. It's got to be a fairly difficult position to take to decide that your conscience subjector, when you signed up voluntarily for the military, it's not like you were drafted or anything. What is this about? Why are people going in the military and then finding out that they're CO? How do they find out that they're really conscience subjectors? Well, the law requires that you have a change of heart, and generally what happens is that when people join the military, they're often very young. And they honestly and truthfully believe that what they're doing is a service to their country and to the world that some of them might think that war is not your first choice, but that sometimes it's a necessary choice. And they believe that they can participate in it and that it will not have bad consequences to them for having to participate in it. If they're lucky, if they're not, it might create some physical problems, but that ultimately it's a good thing to do. But what happens is, there's a certain sameness and there's a completely different story, completely different story from person to person, but something triggers a change in heart. For some people, I can think of an officer in the Navy who went to Hiroshima and she spent her entire trip back from Hiroshima on the ship, right? The ship, riding a CO application. I can think of an officer who was interrogating an admitted terrorist in Iraq, and the terrorist said to him, "Why are you here? You tell me you're a Christian. Your God says, "Love your enemy. My God says, "Kill the infidel. I'm here in concert with my faith. What's your excuse?" And that officer realized, suddenly, that if he was, in fact, a Christian, that he was violating the very essence of that faith and turned away from his career. So sometimes it can be really dramatic, things like that. And other times it can be not so dramatic. A person who just sort of gradually starts thinking about the world, starts reading, reads a book, reads Anne Rand, reads Gandhi, reads more, thinks more. Maybe starts reading the Bible, maybe starts reading more libertarian things, and gradually moves further and further away from where he or she was. And then wakes up one day and realizes that they've moved so far away that they no longer can participate. So it always has to do with this change that happens. And yes, it can be very difficult because often the people you're turning around and saying this is wrong to are your friends and in effect you're telling them that what they're doing is wrong. And that can be very, very hard. It's certainly got to be a hard road to go. You've got to continue serving in the military while you're applying for your CO status. Is there an option to get a furlough to your at home while this is happening? Or do they put you in the brig or what happens during this time? They're just still expecting you to go out there and be pointing the gun or maintaining your piece of equipment or perhaps like as in Dr. Timothy Watson's case, continue to operate or do whatever he does radiology to continue to operate his machine and work with the health of their soldiers. Do they expect you to continue doing that or is there another option? When you follow CO application, the only protection you get is that as of that point in time, you are not supposed to be ordered to pick up or train on a weapon. Other than that, for all intents and purposes, your career, your life doesn't change. If you are about to be deployed, they can deploy you. If you are in Iraq, you stay in Iraq. If you are at home, you may stay at home. If you have a leave coming up, they may in fact cancel it. You don't go to jail, but you do remain in the military. And you do wear the uniform and you do do your job. If your job is infantry, which essentially is all about that weapon, then they might change your job to another job. But other than that, it's all the same. And it can be very, very difficult. And some people sometimes find themselves at a point where they simply have to say no to what they are being asked. So in other words, they are not going to be sending you to the front line or the equivalent of that once you file the CO application. They won't send you to the front line with acknowledgement that you are not going to be carrying a weapon. They can send you to the front line. They just cannot order you to pick up a weapon. They do send people to the front line. And they do send people to guard duty without weapons. That's got to be tough. You're the executive director of Center on Conscience and more. And I want to mention the website is centeronconscience.org. J.E., how long have you been doing this? Why are you doing this? There's a lot of different religious groups that are part of your board and are part of the support for this. This isn't just from one religious or moral or ethical outlook, is it? I am very happy to say that my largest financial supporter is a conservative Republican Christian. And my next largest financial supporter is a communist atheist. This is not a political stance. This is not right or left at all. This is not one particular religion or even a lack of religion. This is a universal issue for the very reason that each human being at some point says no to some more. I believe that all people are conscientious objectors. About how many are we talking about in terms of CO applications that you've seen say in the last year? The center has seen approximately 60 CO applications started in the last year. And of those, we've had about a third of them come to completion and the vast majority of those to do a successful completion. In the newsletter that you sent out, J.E., there were a couple articles that talked about different aspects that I think that you've been involved in. The center on conscience and war has been involved in pursuing legal remedies. And one of them was about the Canadian government and the resistors that were up there, that the Canadian government decided to send back. Tell me about that and what your role was in fighting for their rights. The center has long maintained that going to Canada was probably not a good choice because we feared that the Canadian government would send resistors back. The law in Canada concerning U.S. refugees is so different than it was during the Vietnam era. In the Vietnam era, if you were a U.S. citizen, you could go to Canada, hang around for a while, set your suitcases down and say, "I want to be a landed immigrant." And it would be just almost that easy. But in the late '70s, early '80s, about the same time there was a huge reform in immigration law in the United States, Canada changed its immigration law that would require U.S. citizens to declare if they wanted to become a landed immigrant, a landed immigrant to moral equivalent as a resident or having a green card in the United States. And that they had to declare it prior to entering the country and wait until Canada concluded that Canada wanted to become a landed immigrant. And it was much, much harder. As far as refugee status was concerned, again, the threshold was much higher. You had to declare it the minute you entered the country not later. You have to meet certain criteria that I feared people would not going to be able to meet, and unfortunately that was true. Having said that, we spent a great deal of time working with the resistor groups in Canada, providing them support, providing them legal information, providing them affidavits. And if refugees wanted to come back from Canada to the United States, we helped them come in the least damaging way possible for them so that they might get a discharge with the least amount of punishment for their choices. The article that was included in your newsletter mentions that it was against the will of the parliament that the Canadian government was sending them back. Is that a little bit like, you know, Congress says okay, but the president says I'm sending them back? No, it's more like if Congress passed a resolution saying we don't like this. They parliament did not pass a law. They passed a non-binding resolution saying we think this is a bad idea. Well, maybe next time they'll pass actual law. There is a bill that was introduced a few weeks ago in Canada for there to be an actual law that would keep them from being sent back. But my Canadian sources have indicated that they don't feel that it has much likelihood of success. Another article that was in your newsletter was that a peace group in North Carolina, I guess, wins access to the public schools. What's that about? This is another front that you're pushing for a conscience in the American society. What happened there? Well, we have long supported people who wanted to do truth and recruiting or counter recruiting in schools. In fact, we had provided a amicus brief in the circuit in the early 90s, late 80s. Actually, the early 80s come to think of it called Cersei, which made it clear that if there were military recruiters in the school, then people who provided other alternatives and who had things to say about the reality of military also could have equal access into the schools. More recent times, through the No Child Left Behind Act, which is commonly known as the No Child Left Unrecruited Act, military recruiters have had an increased access to schools, and there has been a certain level of hostility by some principals and some school districts towards counter recruiters and truth in recruiters. If you were not in a jurisdiction that was covered by one of these cases that had said point blank, you had to write into the schools, schools would often deny access. Fighting the No Child Left Behind Act saying, "We have to let the military in. We don't have to let you in." In this case was the case where there was a decision by the local counter recruitment, truth in recruiting people to go forward in the courts to assure that they would have equal access, and they were successful, because the law was actually pretty clear on this point. One more article I want to mention something about. It's about a Washington State resident who stands up to draft registration. As I learned in the training, you're not allowed anywhere in the form, at least, to claim conscientious subjector status when you apply, and that was the essence of this case, wasn't it? Yes, Toby Jacob Brown thought a real long time about his registration and was quite concerned about the fact that he wasn't able to register as a conscientious objector, and he consulted with the ACLU and they with us about that issue. The issue came about this way. When registration was re-instituted in the early '80s, the selected service considered whether or not they should put on the form an opportunity to register as a conscientious objector. The decision was made at that time that they would not do so, and there was some support in the peace community for that decision, with the idea being that people who didn't know about conscientious objections who didn't know what it was and didn't check off that box at that time would then be put at a disadvantage should there be a draft. But Toby Jacob Brown says that just like the many people who refused to register because they were conscientious objectors and did not want to send a signal that they were willing to support a military draft, that he really wanted to register. He wanted to be as in compliance with the law, but that he could not register if he didn't have the opportunity to say that he was conscientious objector, and handwriting it on the form just isn't sufficient for him because there's no legal recognition of that handwriting that many people do. And so what he is doing is pushing the selected service through the courts to allow him the freedom to register as a conscientious objector. What stage is that in the courts right now, and is this going to take ten years before they decide it, or is this something that we could find out within three months? It is really only just begun, and it's possible that there may be a very quick decision by the courts against him, but if it's a decision in his favor, it will probably take some time. So I doubt we will hear anything in the immediate future concerning this case. A lot of good things in your magazine, and it's called the Reporter for Conscience's sake, and it comes from the Center on Conscience and War. The website is centeronconscience.org, and I think centeronconscience.org is easier than the NISPCO, initials that you used to learn. What did that NISPCO stand for again? National and a Religious Service Board for Conjectors Objectors. I like Center on Conscience and War better myself. You can say that long name so much better than I can. I'm sure you've had years to practice. Many years of doing good work for conscience objectors, supporting those people who really want to examine what they're doing, and bring their religion or their morality or whatever to play. Thanks for doing that work for so many years, not Jay. I'm happy and privileged to do the work, and I'm one of many hundreds of thousands of people who served their country in this manner. Thanks for joining me for Spirit in Action. Thank you for having me. That was Attorney Jay E. McNeil of the Center on Conscience and War in Washington, D.C. For links to the center and to my earlier guest, Father Moreno of Honduras, go to northernspiritradio.org. Let's finish up this edition of Spirit in Action with a song on peace. Study war no more, or maybe it's down by the riverside. And because I'm excited about my upcoming guest, Peggy Seger, will play this version of the song by her brother, Pete Seger. And since it's Pete Seger's song, you all know you're supposed to sing along and study war no more. I'm gonna lay down my sword and shield, down by the riverside, down by the riverside, down by the riverside, and only down my sword and shield, down by the riverside and study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I'm gonna talk with a prince of peace, down by the riverside, down by the riverside, down by the riverside, I'm gonna talk with a prince of peace, down by the riverside and study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I'm gonna shake hands with every man, down by the riverside, down by the riverside, down by the riverside, I'm gonna shake hands with every man, down by the riverside and study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I'm gonna shake hands around the world, down by the riverside, down by the riverside, down by the riverside, ♪ Take hands around the world ♪ ♪ Done by the riverside ♪ ♪ Study, war, no ♪ ♪ Study, war, no ♪ ♪ I ain't gonna study war, no more ♪ ♪ Ain't gonna study war, no more ♪ ♪ Ain't gonna study war, no ♪ ♪ Study, war, no more ♪ ♪ Ain't gonna study war, no more ♪ ♪ Ain't gonna study war, no more ♪ ♪ Ain't gonna study war, no more ♪ - The theme music for this program is "Turning of the World", performed by Sarah Thompson. This spirit in action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio. You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website, northernspiritradio.org. Thank you for listening. I am your host, Mark Helpsmeet, and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is spirit in action. ♪ With every voice ♪ ♪ With every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ ♪ With every voice, with every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ ♪ Feeling ♪