Spirit in Action
The Children of Mother Glory
Michele (C.M.) Harris has written a probing and powerful novel involving issues of sexual identity, pacifism and toxicity in the environment over the past 100 years. With multiple protagonists facing a world that is judgmental to gay/lesbian/trans/pacifist people, Michele takes us for a walk in the shoes of the "other", helping us to understand the issues from many directions.
- Broadcast on:
- 07 Mar 2010
- Audio Format:
- other
(upbeat music) ♪ Let us sing this song for the healing of the world ♪ ♪ That we may hear as one ♪ ♪ With every voice, with every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ - Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark helps me. Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. ♪ Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world ♪ ♪ That we may dream as one ♪ ♪ With every voice, with every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world along ♪ - Today for Spirit in Action, we're going to be speaking with an upcoming author, C.M. Harris, where the M stands for Michelle, which is what she goes by when she's not on the cover of a book. Michelle's new book is The Children of Mother Glory. And I have to say it's a deep, empathic novel covering the past hundred years or so, revolving around a small religious sect and very notably issues of homosexuality, pacifism, and environmental toxicity. One thing that sets The Children of Mother Glory apart from many books is the sensitivity with which Michelle Harris and flashes the many perspectives of the conflicts that arise. Reading this book will increase your understanding of the shoes in which many different people are walking. Michelle draws deeply on her own experience, growing up in a small religious sect and emerging as a lesbian who lives with her partner and their two children in the Twin Cities of Minnesota. There are no simple bad guys or good guys in this book, but it's a complex world, which will see more fully with all the pros and cons once we've journeyed with Michelle Harris' fictitious Midwestern community of The Children of Mother Glory. Before we join Michelle in the Twin Cities, however, let's listen to Paul Simon singing about his memories of his small town childhood. The first of several songs we'll share today for "Spirit in Action", my little town, Paul Simon. (gentle music) ♪ In my little town ♪ ♪ I grew up believing ♪ ♪ God keeps his eye on the song ♪ ♪ And he used to lean upon me ♪ ♪ As I pledged allegiance to the war ♪ ♪ Lord, I recall my little town ♪ ♪ Coming home after school ♪ ♪ Flying my bike past the gates of the factory ♪ ♪ He used ♪ ♪ My mom doing the laundry ♪ ♪ Hanging our shirts in the dirty breeze ♪ ♪ And after it rains, there's a rainbow ♪ ♪ And all of the colors are black ♪ ♪ It's not that the colors aren't there ♪ ♪ It's just imagination we lack ♪ ♪ Everything's a safe bag ♪ ♪ In my little town ♪ ♪ I grew up ♪ (gentle music) (gentle music) ♪ Nothing but the dead and I am back in my little town ♪ ♪ Nothing but the dead and I am back in my little town ♪ (gentle music) ♪ In my little town ♪ ♪ I never meant nothing, I was just my father's son ♪ ♪ Mm ♪ ♪ Saving my money ♪ ♪ Dreaming of glory ♪ ♪ Switching like a finger on the trigger of a gun ♪ ♪ Feeling nothing but the dead and I am back in my little town ♪ ♪ Nothing but the dead and I am back in my little town ♪ ♪ Nothing but the dead and I am back in my little town ♪ (gentle music) ♪ Nothing but the dead and I am back in my little town ♪ ♪ Nothing but the dead and I am back in my little town ♪ (gentle music) I was Paul Simon, of course, my little town. Now, over to the Twin Cities to talk with Michelle Harris, author of a novel set in a Midwestern small town, The Children of Mother Glory. Michelle, thanks so much for joining me for a spirit in action. - You're welcome, I'm glad to be doing it. - I'm looking forward to your visit to Eau Claire shortly. I've come over to join you here in the Twin Cities where you're located, but on March 9th, you're gonna be in Eau Claire. What are you gonna be speaking about? - I'm going to be reading from my novel, The Children of Mother Glory, which is a historical saga. - And what group are you gonna be doing this for? - This is gonna be for the LGBT community. It's the Community Center in Chippewa Valley. - I love the book, first of all. Let's put that on the table. I think it's extremely well written and the themes that you touch, the people you talk about, the characters you develop are so rich. And of course, because I'm interested in spirit and action, I'm especially moved by the way that you put themes of human equality, respect, environmental, pacifism. All of these things are packed into this book. So I wanna go into all of those, but first of all, I wanna say a big thank you because it allows people access to ideas, feelings, understandings that aren't usually available. - Well, thank you. It was actually a very easy novel to write in a way because I felt all these issues intensely and a lot of experience with the subject matter. So thank you. - Maybe we better spec out a little bit about the book so people get an idea. And then I wanna talk about what in your experience enabled you to write this book. Very often what we write is autobiographical and I understand that this novel is autobiographical for you. The children of Mother Glory, Mother Glory is kind of the one at the back of this religious sect. You grew up in a religious sect. So even though this is a different fictional sect that you're talking about, there are important ideas about any religious group. I grew up Catholic. I've been Quaker since I've been adult. And I know that my worldview is shaped by that. What would you say are the essentials of the worldview that Mother Glory is bringing in that formed the background for this book? - I think that the pacifism aspect is really important. There are so many different kinds of denominations in this country, but I don't think we talk a lot about pacifism when it comes to religion. And the last century was such a huge century for war, different conflicts and battles. And so that provides a huge impetus for Mother Glory's religion, the whole pacifism issue during World War I and World War II. - Another thing that's talked about frequently, it's like the end times are here. Maybe we've got World War I or we've got World War II coming or even the tack on the twin towers. It must be the end times are upon us. And that's kind of fuel for the religion. Is that also your experience growing up? That that was kept being brought up? That that kept being developed? - Yes, that was talked a lot about when I was a child. I don't think it says talked about now, but there was a just a huge surge in denominations in the mid-1800s that popped up that had to do with end time religious theory. And this potterite clan that I talk about in this book is one of those. It is actually started by Glory's father and Glory takes the reins of it. But Thaddeus Potter, Glory's father, would have been one of those types of men who was a tent revivalist, was really talking about the end times. And the whole aspect of the industrial age was really bringing that about. And the Civil War that came about that really had a very large impact on religion and really felt had a kind of feel of the end times and our whole manifest destiny going across the United States. And as we were taking out the Indian tribes and everything, it was just a huge time for religion back then. - I think, Michelle, that you have some understanding of the function of religion, what it does for people. When we were speaking a little bit earlier, you referred to it as a kind of a science of its own. How does the end time focus work in terms of that science of religion, what purposes it's serving, why is it coming up during war and intense change? If religion does serve to explain the world in a way that is digestible to us, why this focus on end times, what good does that do us? How does that help us survive? I think that your characters in the book are surviving or perhaps surviving better than they would otherwise because of this theology that they're carrying. - Yeah, I think that the whole end times, and this is just supposition, but I think the whole end times response is a sort of fear response that is, what are we doing to ourselves as the world becomes more and more populated? It seems like the whole end times concept is a kind of fear of war and just kind of a breaking point. Like at some point, this world is gonna break down, but there have been in times believes for centuries. It's not just something that came about in the 1800s. It's kind of been a feature of the human experience when it comes to religion, I think, for a long time. - One of the things I love about the book is that you don't really end up trashing everyone. I think you make it possible for us to see everybody's point of view and the positive and negative parts of that. One of the things that many of us have trouble with religion is this promise of pie in the sky, buy and buy, that do whatever in this world and you'll be happier in the next. I mean, the payoff comes a place when we can't see. We just have to believe that the payoff's there. The people in your book, some really deep thinking and people with large integrity make difficult decisions based on that. But you do it without any sarcasm, as far as I can see. How was that for you to write in there that Mother Glory denying her lesbian lifestyle, just not going there because she says that's not what God wants? Because you have to live up to what the Bible tells you or something. How was that for you? - Well, I feel like in some ways that closet is in a heroic place to be or it was at one time because it was for the greater good, in her opinion. And in a way, God was kind of an irrelevant aspect because it was really a social situation where she was supporting her church and the church, this community, needed a leader. You know, in our modern times, we're gonna look at that and say, you know, she's in the closet, want to lose her. But back then, it would have been a brave thing to do. Whereas a brave thing to do now is to get out of that. So, I mean, it was just, I wanted to explore that and see that from all sides. - And a song that helps capture at least one side of the experience of realizing you're gay in a society that denies that is this one by Holly Neer. Imagine my surprise. ♪ Imagine my surprise ♪ ♪ I love that I found you ♪ ♪ But I ache all over wanting ♪ ♪ To know your every dream ♪ ♪ Imagine my surprise ♪ ♪ To find that I love you ♪ ♪ Feeling warm all over knowing that you've been alive ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Pirates of an Eastern coast ♪ ♪ When when you live in danger ♪ ♪ But I hear you laughter ♪ ♪ Free of petty clothes ♪ ♪ No need for foolish memory ♪ ♪ Though you're living in the 18th century ♪ ♪ You make love to each other on your boats out on the sea ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Imagine my surprise ♪ ♪ I love that I found you ♪ ♪ But I ache all over wanting ♪ ♪ To know your every dream ♪ ♪ Imagine my surprise ♪ ♪ To find that I love you ♪ ♪ Feeling warm all over knowing that you've been alive ♪ ♪ I love that you've been in my heart ♪ ♪ Lady Paul wed a great acclaim ♪ ♪ I have been misreading you I never knew ♪ ♪ Your poems were meant for me ♪ ♪ You lived alone in a quiet den ♪ ♪ A point of caution through your pen ♪ ♪ And weeping for your little lovers ♪ ♪ As they safely married men ♪ ♪ Rugging women have gone before me ♪ ♪ Having paths like pioneers ♪ ♪ Open all alone ♪ ♪ Won't I dream the queens ♪ ♪ And send them relax ♪ ♪ Facing is a point that when I was grown ♪ ♪ Facing is a point that when I was grown ♪ ♪ But imagine my surprise ♪ ♪ I love that I found you ♪ ♪ But I ache all over wanting ♪ ♪ To know your every dream ♪ ♪ Imagine my surprise ♪ ♪ To find that I love you ♪ ♪ Feeling warm all over knowing that you've been alive ♪ ♪ Knowing that you've been in my life ♪ ♪ In my life ♪ ♪ I've imagined my surprise ♪ That was Holly Neersong, imagine my surprise, capturing a bit of the history of discovery of sexual identity. So hidden in our past, just as it is for several of the protagonists in CM Harris' new novel, The Children of Mother Glory. CM, where the M stands for Michelle, will be speaking about her book at the LGBT Community Center here in Eau Claire, 5'10", South Farwell, at 7 p.m. on Tuesday, March 9th. Find the info on my site, northernspiritradio.org. Before Holly Neersong, Michelle was telling us that she wrote the book to see the historical experiences of being in the closet from a lot of different perspectives, from different points of view. So do you really see it from all sides? Can you really understand with empathy? The way the book reads to me, you really do have empathy for her experience, for the congregation. You have extremely large empathy for so many different people in the world, and I think that's an unusual thing. Most people get hold of their peace of the truth, and therefore don't want to talk about other peoples. It's easier, I think, actually, to approach things from a fundamentalist standpoint, whether that's from a liberal fundamentalist standpoint or a conservative one. It's just easier to label things and put them in their categories and move on. But yeah, I really did want to look at what were the positives of being in this sect and what were the negatives. I really think it's a question of, it's a social environment that people needed to belong to, and it's hard to walk away from that. There's a new book out called The Ties That Bind by Sarah Schulman that I think talks a little bit about familial homophobia. And in this day and age, we walk away from it, we run away from being shunned, but the answer Schulman puts for it is that we should go back and we should stay and we should make change instead of running from it. I think in this book, in The Children and Mother Glory, you're seeing a lot of different responses. You're seeing people leave, you're seeing people stay, you're seeing some change. Over the course of 100 years, it's bound to change, and I was interested in looking at a small community and how that transpires. - You used a phrase there that I absolutely adore, and I think it means that you and I are in the same wavelength. You referred to conservative fundamentalist and liberal fundamentalist, and most people think that there isn't any such thing. What do you mean by using that kind of term? - I think it's just being very staunch in your views. I think it's important because if you're backing a certain team, you need to stay strong for it, but sometimes those issues just aren't so black and white. Where we are in the country right now is really proof positive of how that's just stopping everything up. Two different groups that are doing battle and they never make any headway in one direction or the other, and so here we are very stagnant. I think that that's going on in the novel as well, that if you are stagnant, if you're not moving forward, there's just no growth. There's a stagnation that happens near the end of the book, and it becomes somewhat toxic. So it kind of plays out there too. - I just want to repeat this because you did say that liberals can be fundamentalist too. I think a lot of people believe that that's not possible, that it's only conservatives can be fundamentalist. - I think we have examples in why it has to be both, why it has to be a binary thing. I think we have examples on both the liberal and conservative side of things of where it just aren't gonna budge on an issue. So yeah, just having fundamental beliefs can exist on either side. - So my truth or no truth, it's that black and white, and you can happen, yeah, I agree with you 100%. I actually had a teacher in college who struck me as that. He said he had been a goldwater supporter, big staunch conservative, and then a friend came home in a body bag from Vietnam, and then he said, if I flipped, I became a liberal. Except that he still, in my view, was a fundamentalist. He didn't have an open, inquiring mind, which is what I normally connect with liberal, but obviously you can have a liberal position as defined by society, which is not open-minded. But your book is all about open-mindedness, in my opinion, about showing us all the various colors of the rainbow, I feel well. One of the comments you made earlier was that can be hard to walk away. Was that your personal experience? Was it hard to walk away? - Oh, sure. When you belong to a very large family, let's say, a family of 150, 200 people, to just walk away from that is, in some situations, for some people, suicidal. It changes everything in your life, and you have to go out and try and create new families. That's a really tough thing for queer people to have to find new families. At some point, it has to stop. The dogma has to change, or something, because we're all in this together. You can't just have some people over here and throw the rest out. - Did you write this book in order to help other people? I mean, I assume it was therapeutic for you, but did you write it to help other people? Because I think there are people out there who are dealing with these issues. What's my religious value? Do I have to give up my entire family? Where do I find family? What's my self-worth? I think you help people process all that by this book. Was that your intent? - Not really. (laughs) You know, it's really, if you sit down and you decide that you want to write a book and you're gonna preach to people about a certain issue, it usually falls flat. I started this book out because I just really didn't feel like I had a choice. It needed to be written and the characters, their stories, wanted to be told. The bonus is that I do have people that are coming to me and saying, wow, this sort of thing happened to me, or this really enlightened things for me. I learned a lot from this book that I hadn't known before, or I'm seeing things in a new light because of it. I mean, that's all bonus. I mean, certainly it's impossible to write a book without some level of agenda. You start out thinking you know what's gonna happen and all that, but I didn't sit down and say, okay, I'm gonna change the world with this book. - Let me guess that you wouldn't be chagrined if you did end up turning the world to some better, brighter place by this book. For instance, one of the people in the book is a woman named Robin, very good friends with Danielle, Robin Suicides. What were you doing by putting that in the book? What were you trying to say or what were you trying to address with that story? - It's kind of the idea that you can cut yourself off from the world in general as a community. But the problem with doing that is that you start to feel like you're protected from the dangers of the world and so your children are growing up without knowledge of how things really are. I mean, you can tell them, oh, don't go out into the world, it's dangerous out there, but it's just not possible to protect them fully. And you see that in a lot of really closed sex out there. And so Robin's passing is an example of that safety, that safe line that is very tenuous. And they lose her because she just really didn't know the dangers. And that's kind of a factor of just being a teenager for that matter. Any teenager could have gotten in that situation, but it's a wake-up call to Danielle, Robin's best friend that I shouldn't just stay in this church community because I'm safe from everything, I'm not safe. Look at Robin, so it is kind of a wake-up call. - You're in a relationship with another woman, you have two children. How difficult are the trials in, you know, we're talking about Minneapolis here, how the trials in Minneapolis versus the people who, you have a couple of men who are part of the Potterite Society in your book, and they're trying to function in that society. Is it better, worse, is the world reasonable now? Is there less damage done to people? - Yeah, I would say that it's a lot easier to walk into target, you know, in the neighborhoods that we live in and with our kids and say, honey, can you pick up some Febreze rolls or whatever? It's just easier to do that. Here, you just don't have people coming down on you. Occasionally you get some looks, but it's just a lot easier. Now, the downside of it is that you don't have a huge community patting you on the back unless you go and seek it out. I think things have changed a lot, you know, we belong to a neighborhood and we're just regular people in this neighborhood, in uptown. It's no big deal that we're lesbians and that we have kids. Occasionally they're, you're gonna have a person that's, you know, looks at you in a certain way or whatever, but if that's the worst harm that can come of it, then, you know, that's nothing. ♪ Oh, my children come to me ♪ ♪ Oh, my children come to me ♪ ♪ Oh, my children, children, oh children ♪ ♪ Oh, my children, children ♪ ♪ Come to me, come to me, come to me ♪ ♪ And I will hold you, come to me ♪ ♪ I will hold you, come to me ♪ ♪ I will hold you, hold you, hold you ♪ ♪ Come to me, come to me, come to me ♪ ♪ And will you hold me, come to me ♪ ♪ Will you hold me, come to me ♪ ♪ Will you hold me, hold me, hold me ♪ ♪ Hold me, come to me, come to me ♪ ♪ I was a song by Sarah Thompson, Oh, my children ♪ ♪ And why did I choose to share it here? ♪ ♪ My guest Michelle Harris, author of the Children of Mother Glory ♪ ♪ Combines themes of maternal love ♪ ♪ Including that of Mother Glory for her congregation ♪ ♪ With some of the struggle, angst and fear of living on the fringe ♪ ♪ Of the acceptable in religious community ♪ ♪ And that's an issue, Michelle, that you've dealt with ♪ ♪ And you deal with in your real life ♪ - What about a community of support? How do you carry on that partner? You give up your home community, the rural area, the sect that you grew up with. Is having neighbors who accept you sufficient? Or is there a way, a need, an importance to community of support? - I think that you could actually take the queer aspect out of the whole community idea and look at America, the way it is right now, and it's very diffuse, and communities, you really have to make them happen, especially in the city. I mean, you're just kind of on your own. So, you know, leaving a community like the Potterite community is very tough, but, you know, it's tough for everybody. It's not just about being gay. It's tough when you leave a small town and you go to the big city, whether you're gay or not. Nobody's waiting for you there to say, "Hey, come join our club." You know, you really have to go search that out. Have you found community of support for yourself? How do you feel that something that I think was a deep well in the place you grew up with? I'd like in the book several times you refer to the aunts who have been loving wonderful presences in the life of characters, and then when you're coming of age and kind of coin your own way, they're not so happy with the dyed hair and so on like that. I assume you had that kind of support, love, intense community back home. Came here. Have you found a place to fill that up? Not in the same way. I have very good connections with friends, and my partner's family is extremely supportive of us, and so we have that on some level, but we don't have like a huge, like, religious community that we belong to, so that would be the difference. I would say I have all the friends I need and the family I need, but not in a religious environment. One of the things I like about fiction in general is it gives us a good canvas on which to try out several ways that the world could go. Now, your book, I think, ends with a kind of a questioning. It doesn't give any kind of prescription for what's going to work out, what's going to be fine in the world, although I think Danielle does find a way that works for her that goes in the right direction. So to the degree that this is a canvas that you're drawing about what are possible solutions, healthy solutions, at this time and place in history, what do you think you're showing are the possible options that are good? The one of the largest issues that's going on in the book, and a solution that might rise, is that communities need to stay somewhat small. They can only get to a certain size, certain sections of these communities. They can only get to a certain size, and once people stop knowing each other, that's when things start breaking down. We have groups, societies all over the world, and denominations for religions, but we need to have small groups of people that, I think, range from Malcolm Gladwell says something about it in the tipping point, that once you pass 150 people, families stop knowing each other, and then things break down, and people start talking about the people they don't know, and so I think that kind of rises near the end of the book, that the community needs to stay close, and yet it needs to be open. It's a conundrum, it really is, but I think it's when our communities aren't connected and people aren't speaking, we're just social creatures, and we need that connection. Given that you understand that the smallness of a community allows you to do community better, I don't suppose you're tempted to move to the small town now. Oh, I really miss the small towns. I love the country, and really yearn for it. There's something about being brought up out in the middle of nowhere, where you can just wander to your heart's content that is just, it really feeds the soul, and there's something about city life that just is hard that way when you're cooped up, you know, in these tight spaces with everybody. Minneapolis is wonderful though, with the lakes and the parks and stuff, so I'm still able to get out and get on my bike and get out there in the country and stuff, so I'm lucky that way, but yeah, I do. I miss the small towns and that small town life of knowing everybody, even the knowing everybody's business part is fun too. Does your partner come from a similar background, small town? Maybe Minneapolis fits better for her than Hodunk, Wisconsin or Hodunk, Minnesota. Oh yeah, she's more of a city girl. She moved around a lot when she was a kid, lived in a lot of different cities and towns. She's Jewish, and I have a Christian upbringing, and so we bring a lot of different things to the relationship because of that. And how do you deal with this with kids? How do you bring different religious ideas? What's your chosen idea about how to approach this? And in part, I'm really asking about what's good for the world? What's healthy for the world at this point? How do we deal with religion when we've got diversity? How do we deal with it when we've got different lifestyles that some people find except both some not? Well, at this point, we take it one issue at a time as the children raise those issues. We really are trying to raise them as global citizens, that this whole planet is theirs to help take care of. We haven't focused on a religion. We definitely bring our cultural religious aspects into the mix. I mean, I don't think there's any way that you can avoid doing that, but it's all good. If you just tuned in, you're listening to Spirit in Action. I'm Mark Helpsmeet, your host for this Northern Spirit Radio production. Our website is northernspiritradio.org and you can find connection to all the programs we do and to our guests via our website. The home radio station for Northern Spirit Radio is WHYS, LP and Eau Claire. Though, of course, we go out across the nation, not only via our website, but via the other stations. Check out northernspiritradio.org to see if we're broadcast near you. Today, we're speaking with Michelle Harris, or if you look on the books, you'll find C.M. Harris. I was mystified for a while. I didn't know when I called her up. I should say, "C.M. is that you?" I had no idea. Why do you choose C.M. as part of what you put on your book? Well, originally when I started writing novels and short stories, I write from a lot of different viewpoints, and I've written gay stories before about men, and it really helps to have a kind of gender-neutral author name. So that's kind of how that popped up. And then once you start, you know, publishing under that, then that becomes your name. I mean, I suppose it's possible someday I'll just be Michelle Harris, the author, but I don't know. That's where I'm at right now. Well, in addition to the issue of gay lifestyle, or I don't even like to say that gay lifestyle, identity, the issues that come up when a person has any kind of identity that doesn't match with what the surrounding community identifies as the norm or acceptable. Two of the other issues that you talk about in the book include pacifism. I think the sect you grew up in was also pacifist. You must have been exposed to others. You talk about Quakers in the book, for instance. You mentioned Amish as well. What's your exposure? What are your thoughts about pacifism? Is that part of your personal beliefs? I am very fascinated with pacifism, and I do think it's a challenge for us as human beings to be pacifist. It really goes against the grain of our nature. When I grew up pacifist, yes, I was raised to believe that we are to turn the other cheek in all situations. If somebody comes in your house and starts attacking your family, turn the other cheek, you take it. And obviously the death penalty, big no-no. And war, of course, organized murder. So I really, really identified with that growing up. I wrote an essay in high school about the conscientious objectors that were in my church and got a really bad grade for it because my history teacher was of a different mind. And I suppose it's possible it wasn't written very well either. But I really thought that was a fantastic way to grow up. That has stayed with me almost more than any of the other beliefs that I was brought up with. I learned some of the feelings and experience of things like taking a public stand and witness from the stories embedded in books and also in songs like this one by Andy Murray called Brave Man from Ohio. Ted was raised in Ohio where Brave men regularly grow. He wasn't surprised to get a letter calling him to the war. He was most polite and he wanted to do right, so he wrote right back and said, "I've learned from my people that I must not fight, but I'd like to work instead. Oh, I'm not afraid to go. Folks, I'm not afraid to die. I've just got something else in my that I would like to try. Give me a shovel instead of a gun. I'll say so long for now. If I die, I'll die making something instead of tearing something down." He said goodbye to those he loved, wiped his mother's tears. Don't fret folks, I know what I'm doing. I'll be back in a couple of years. He picked a piece I can eat and looked back. He bravely left for the war. Took a Bible and a shovel and a lot of hope. He knew what he was going for. Oh, I'm not afraid to go. Mother, I'm not afraid to die. I just don't want to be the one to make another son's mother cry. Give me a shovel instead of a gun. Say so long for now. If I die, I'll die making something instead of tearing something down. He worked among the people of that far off Asian land. Many who would be the enemy became the friend of the brave young man. He helped in the crops and he worked in the shops and talked whenever he could of how he dreamed of a peaceful world. My life would be sweet and good. Oh, I'm not afraid to be here for it. I'm not afraid to die. I just can't shake this feeling inside. We can live together if we try. Give me a shovel instead of a gun and I'll lend me a hand for now. If we die, I'll die making something instead of tearing something down. He fell in love with the brave young woman. Took her to be his bride. She shared his dream of a world going right. Worked right by his side. But the war got to the love so long. I pulled it left the young grown dead and hurt his grief. The bride heard a gentle voice that said, "Tell him I wasn't afraid to go my love. I wasn't afraid to die. I just didn't want to be the man to make another man's wall and cry. Put in my shop beside my grave. Maybe someone else will find to be brave enough to die. Make something start tearing something down. Put in my shop beside my grave. I'll save so long for now. Don't worry my love. We're gonna make it. I know we're gonna make it so my love. [Music] Brave Man from Ohio by Andy Murray. A song about a conscientious objector, part of a small religious sect, the Church of the Brotheran in this case, from a Midwestern town, very closely paralleling, what happens to some of the folks in Michelle Harris's novel, The Children of Mother Glory. This is Spirit in Action and I'm your host, Mark Helpsmeet of Northern Spirit Radio. My home radio station is WHYS LP, Eau Claire, Wisconsin. But you can find my programs in a number of stations, iTunes, and of course on my website, northernspiritradio.org. Michelle, you were talking about pacifism as religious witness. Do you still believe it is something that we should do? I mean, can we do it? Really be non-violent as Jesus apparently called us to be? I truly believe that that is a way that we should try to be. But in the book, I do show that that's a very hard thing to do. And then especially when it comes to raising children, I am asking the question, how can you be a pacifist and spank your children? You know, that sort of thing happens within the book. And I mean, there are just so many different layers to it that I'm still fascinated to this day with that challenge that how do you not go to war when your country is being attacked? And I think World War II would have been a very difficult time to be a conscientious objector. Because that was the quote unquote good war. Yeah, I think that was one of the things you brought out so well. And again, so sensitively, I think you do this really well in the book. You have the relationship between Sebastian, who's part of Mother Glory's church. He's a potterite. And he's got his friend Hank, who is all gung-ho for the military. And yet they keep a friendship and they listen to each other. And that seems so difficult to do in our society. But I think you do it really well. Do you feel like you knew people connected with your church had that kind of easy give and take between each other? I'm easy as an even the correct word for it because it's not necessarily always easy between Zeb and Hank. Yeah, I did know people. I went to school with, I wasn't in such a closed sect that, you know, I was not in school with people of a different mind. I had a lot of friends that weren't pacifists and it really, you know, it wasn't like a huge issue because I did not grow up in a time where the draft was on. So I kind of got to skirt that issue and especially as a woman got to skirt it, you know. I think maybe the boys in the church that I grew up may have had more of a problem with their friends possibly. Toward the latter part of the book, Michelle, you also deal with, I think, environmental issues and the place that plays in our life. Is that an important part of your worldview as well? Yeah, environment is a huge issue within the book and it is actually kind of a huge issue in my life right now too. And it's something ironic happened after I handed over this book to my publisher. Near the end of the book, we talk about a lot of the people in this church community getting cancers, different types of cancers. We talk about something toxic that turns up in in the church community that is discovered and about, it was probably about a month after I handed my book over to my editor. I got a diagnosis of breast cancer, two different types of breast cancer and it was just a very odd experience because there is an issue of toxicity in a closed environment where you don't get to be who you really are and how nature will fill a vacuum. It really comes into play in the book and then it came into play in my life and just kind of brought it all home for me that in certain ways this country, America, is experiencing an environmental disaster in the form of cancers and different diseases. As I talk to you about it now, it sounds very much like I'm preaching about it but in the book, it's more of a question that's raised. What's going on here? I don't have all the answers and I don't know that the book has all the answers but I do think that there's something going on there as far as what we're doing to our environments and what we're doing to ourselves. I need to ask you, Michelle, how are you doing? Well, I was diagnosed with stage one so if you want to get a cancer, you want to be stage one. So I'm good. I had surgery and I'm on medications and I'm clear, let's see, it's almost been a year so I will be clear in a year. Five years is the goal that you want to be but get five years behind me. We'll talk again. Okay, I'll write it on my calendar, four years from now we'll be talking about it. One other question I wanted to ask, for your perspective, your input on one of the things that happens in the book is that this Potterite sect that you're writing about in your novel, you get to see them lose their religious center. You get to see them do compromises with the world and you know, well, we've got to do this to survive and then we're going to make a buck this and this is what's important for the shareholders. I assume you put that in there for a reason. Yeah, I just think that that's where we're all at. I'm not just trying to single out religious communities as, "Aha, see, you know, you said you're going to do this and now you're doing that." I think we're all kind of forced into those icky situations where we're constantly having to compromise, you know, our beliefs and it's a daily struggle. You know, I just feel for everybody that we all have to make these decisions and stay strong with our beliefs and sometimes that's not so easy and it's certainly not easy for the Potterites. I'd like you to share something from the book. I don't know what I want you to share but there's so much good here. You maybe know what you could grab that would be accessible. So could you grab something and share it with our listeners? Sure. I think a good one, a good section to talk about is it's really near the beginning of the book. Glory, who's really the spine of the novel, she's just lost her father and he is the minister of the community and so she's kind of saddled now with needing to take care of this flock. So this is shortly after his passing. The next Sunday, washed and fragrance to with sandalwood and honeysuckle oil, Glory stood in her white camisole and knickers. She stared into her freestanding shaval mirror, lifting her best dresses up to her neck then casting them to the floor like the world potato sacks. She had to choose something understated but not mournful. She'd already had enough of black. Glory settled on a high-necked long-sleeved affair, which Aunt Sarah had spent a pretty penny on in St. Louis, made of blue gray velvet to match her eyes, if it a bit old-fashioned, snugly down to the waist, and waves of creamy lace peaked out at the wrists and neck. She pinned up her hair seven different ways, tucked a spray of baby's breath in, ripped it out. We must not look like some bridesmaid waiting to catch the bouquet. On the other hand, she was too young to act a matron without looking like an understudy, playing dress-up with the lead actor's things. She finally headed out the door with a bun on top, a few locks tumbling down around her face and neck to temper severity. "Lance, father! The view from the podium is as spectacular as I'd imagined." The two flanks of pews curved toward the podium as if to embrace the pulpit. Saved for the back two rows, they were full of worshipers, some of them spectators. The great stained glass roundel at the back burned its floral spectrum into her forehead. Dust floated in the splintering sunshine across the heads of the faithful, like tiny angels dancing. It was five past. I don't even remember why I'm doing this. 80 people? No. At least 100 people are sitting here, waiting. Glory gazed at her flock, a soft, slow-blinking, placidity, armoring her face. She could find no demons among them, only the gently flawed. And their sheep eyes were asking, "When is the Lord coming back, Glory? When is he coming back?" Her scalp tingled. "What if she stood right now and stepped down from the platform and nestled into Aunt Sarah's side? There she could take the woman's hand, drop it on her head, and lose herself in those loving fingers. Then Uncle Mark would step up and start the sermon. Everyone would forgive her. Tell her, we knew it was much too much for a 22-year-old woman to take on. We were only humoring Thaddeus. They're their child. Hush now." It was ten past. Glory rose from the minister's throne. She might just fling herself in the five-pound Bible out into the aisles, but first she would deliver the sermon. John the Baptist was a fool. Anyone who had been previously checking watches, blowing noses or soothing children, stopped. Glory fought the urge to hoot like a mad woman and run screaming out the vestibule. And one of the greatest men ever known in the Lord's eyes, sighs abounded. "You will be fools and the greatest of men on the same day if you follow our Father's intent. For while John the Baptist heralded the Lord's coming, he was but a town crier without a township. And for that he lost his head. If you want to keep yours, you'll find the exit directly behind you. She raised a hand to the vestibule, a place you have been already, a place familiar, a comfortable place for now. The rest of us were all Baptist without water, and we'll have to find the river of Jordan blindfolded. But there is a light in the darkness, and that is what we'll be thinking on today. The light, the love." That's powerful. That's powerful. You know, Michelle, it's very clear that you have ministerial gifts. I hope that doesn't cause you trouble. Oh, no. No, when you grow up listening to really good sermons, and I did, listen to fantastic speakers, you know, you absorb that. And so when it's time to write it down, it's not like you're taking it out of, you know, your head verbatim, but it's there, it's threaded into you. And it is very, it is a very special gift. I'm, you know, I'm glad I heard those sermons. That was just one short excerpt from the Children of Mother Glory. You can hear more if you're in the Chippewa Valley by showing up in Eau Claire, the LGBT center of Chippewa Valley will be hosting Michelle Harris, C.M. Harris, on her book on March 9th at 7 p.m. Again, you can find the link via my site to connect you up with this information, northernspiritradio.org. Michelle, you have so many gifts, and I really think this book is a sensitive exploration of the pros and the cons, the struggles, the hopes of people, including vital issues of sexual identity, environmentalism, pacifism, how we live in the world, how we deal with sex, drugs, rock and roll, whatever. All of those things are in there, and they're done so sensitively. I just think you've given a great gift to the world. Thanks so much for joining me for Spirit in Action. Thank you, Mark. It was great to be here. That was Michelle Harris, author of a novel, the Children of Mother Glory, here with us today for Spirit in Action. The theme music for this program is "Turning of the World" performed by Sarah Thompson. This Spirit in Action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio. You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website, northernspiritradio.org. Thank you for listening. I am your host, Mark Helpsmeet, and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world along, and our lives will feel the echo of our healing.