Spirit in Action

Charlie King - A Voice for Peace and Justice

Charlie King has been performing music since he was four, eventually finding a home with folk music. A lifelong Roman (or roaming) Catholic, he morphed from a Goldwater supporter in 1964 to an anti-war protester by 1967, and he's been an outspoken voice for peace and justice ever since.

Broadcast on:: 03 Jan 2010
Audio Format:: other

[music] Let us sing this song for the healing of the world That we may hear as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along And our lives will feel the echo of our healing [music] Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. [music] Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world That we may dream as one With every voice, with every song We will move this world along I'm privileged to have as my guest today for Spirit in Action A truly inspirational folk singer and activist, Charlie King He's got a few decades of singing for the movement under his belt Everything from anti-war to pro-union to anti-capital punishment and far beyond these I count at least 18 albums that Charlie King has released Sometimes solo, sometimes accompanied by other musicians He's led the songs that have inspired so many activists and been part of making so many needed and important changes happen So many of us have benefited from his songs and work Unlike many singers to the far left of center, Charlie King is a lifelong Catholic, though perhaps not in the stereotyped manner that many liberals might imagine With his Jewish partner, Karen Brandau, they inject vibrant spiritual energy into the good work of peace and justice Charlie King joins us now by phone from Massachusetts Charlie, I'm so happy you could join me today for Spirit in Action Great to be here And it's great to have our great musical activist You've been doing it for decades Trying to bring out something good in this world through your music Is this a conscious decision on your part? I mean, did you say I want to make a difference in the world and this is how I could do it? I think music kind of provided its own answer from me I was watching the recent documentary, The Power of Song, The Life of Pete Seeger the other day and Joan Baez was talking about how Pete had created this template that folk songs were to be used to try to make the world a better place So I grew up on folk songs and I eventually, gradually, got the message of political change as being inherent in the medium of folk music the songs of the civil rights movement, the songs of the labor movement and then more appropriate for me because I sort of came of age politically in the late 1960s the songs of the anti-war movement Singing was a given for me, it was something I'd done from my very earliest childhood something I'd love to do and when I discovered folk music then I slowly learned that the songs that want to make the world a better place to sort of use Pete's model came with the territory and then when I needed them, when I found myself in conflict with the draft and the US government because I didn't want to go and fight and kill and die in Vietnam then those songs were there not just as an expression but also as a kind of form of support and I just took my place in line and started singing them and eventually started writing them Does that mean that when you were working on the campaign for Barry Goldwater back in '64 did you write any songs for him? I didn't but it's a good starting point for a couple of reasons one is that even though my earliest political orientation was anti-communism it was always placed in a context of spirituality or religion or morality so that my spirituality and my political activity were early and always linked together when music became more and more accessible to me, I used it towards that end Well, you've been going around calling attention to problems, calling attention to things about our system that need to be improved, that will make us a better country and you've certainly met a lot of good people doing the work along the way you mentioned in your song "News Blues and People" you mentioned one of the people I think I know you said Julie in Milwaukee Pete's section is Julie Enslow, is that her name? Good job! I used to live there and so I certainly knew of her tell me about the genesis of this song This is actually a second generation of peace and justice activists I guess the genesis for it is I find that the news of the world can be very depressing that the way the news is reported in our culture is very distorted and that if I only relied on that as my window on the world I would be a pretty depressed person but I have this privileged life to travel around and meet a lot of people who are spending their lives working for a better world like Julie Enslow and so I kind of go back and forth between these poles of despair at some of the harsh realities of violence and injustice in the world and euphoria at seeing how many people are trying to resist the violence and create a better way of living and that's sort of the nexus that generated this song A very essential part of what I'm doing here is Northern spirit radio and with spirit in action is attempt to get the news out and of course Charlie King, he gets the news out stage to stage and to good song to share some of the good news of many people doing good work in our country is news, blues and people it's a second edition and he's my guest here today for spirit in action Each morning on the road I read the paper and with every line I feel my spirits sink unemployment increase murder in the Middle East homeland insecurity suspending civil liberties landmark legislation in the nation makes it criminal to think each headline highlights one more crooked paper and each byline boast of one more thwarted scheme if Bush gets into one more war I'm getting out with Congress passes one more fascist act I'm gonna scream feels like everything is falling apart at the seams do you know what I mean? but then I go and see Julie up in Milwaukee a peace action devotee or Pat and Bernie San Francisco California singing their hearts out for solidarity I remember Tom Wilson and Ronny Denelson who are texts they refuse and I'm feeling so much better than I'm ready for the five o'clock news oh no the anchor man resembles Father Dreadford his sidekick looks like Chelsea Clinton's mom she reports compellingly on a local spelling beat tuning at 11 cuz they're revving up for coverage of a prom it's a sitcom the weather maps one liners make my head hurt and the local team has been given up for dead the bill reviewer interviews a chimp I'm getting out the prom reporters voting for their queen I'm going to bed if you tuned in for the news you've been badly misled now it's back to you Ted hear about Rebecca Jeff and Martha Marching in Ann Arbor Mike and Sue tearing up Toledo they don't cover Chris and Sarah Press is going in here at Pueblo Unido I'm outside of Encido or Father Roy Buoy's walk along to Georgia shutting down the SOA if you believe the TV you think democracy is slipping away and that's something to say say it! still got washed in cash, fill a posh, canada cash fight for workers safety and help United for a fair economy is challenging monopoly and Trump has spread around a little corporate wealth there's a peace demonstration in every nation twenty million marches can't be wrong so let's keep on fighting the good fight people let's keep singing our song you won't read it in the paper won't see it all news but you just might hear it in a talking blues thanks for the energy keeping me singing these songs that certainly is fun I'm glad we've got you to bring us the news, Charlie King you mentioned working with Barry Goldwater for President and somewhere between 1964 and 1967 you clearly identified yourself as anti-war was there a tipping point moment that you can remember? well I think the environment had a lot to do with leaving home graduating from high school, going not to a radical campus actually quite a conservative campus in the Midwest but meeting different people and getting out from underneath the shadow of my father's very strong political convictions so it became a place where I had a little bit more elbow room to define myself politically so that was the atmosphere I think two things I would point to is tipping points one was that at this particular school every freshman sophomore was required to enroll in ROTC so I was studying military training which given my politics and my background was fine with me but I was really kind of shocked by what we were studying and I specifically remember studying a unit on the military value of forming civilians and I remember going into class and I remember you know I'm a good status quo right-wing Catholic boy at a Jesuit school and I put up my hand and I said to the instructor I said are we talking about the Nazi's here? or are we talking about the United States? and he said oh we're definitely talking about the United States we're talking about any army we all realize the demoralizing value of forming civilians and even though I knew I was patriotic and I knew I supported the military mission of the United States and I knew that it was important to fight communism there was something that just didn't sit right with me at all about forming men, women and children so that was an aha moment and I decided then and there that I wouldn't go to ROTC classes anymore kind of one of my first self-defining moments and it was a fairly serious decision because you couldn't graduate from this college without two years of military training and then I think following fairly rapidly on the heels of that I was picking up a leaflet maybe it was put out by the American Friends Service Committee that was talking about the human cost of the war in Vietnam and it described a woman who was caring for her husband who had been the victim of a napalm attack and had been burned over most of his body that was very sobering and had a big emotional and conscientious impact on me and I think that was really the beginning of my journey to become a conscientious objector and pretty much a lifelong opponent of war and did this bring up walls between you and your home? you came from the Catholic Church or your father I mean I'm assuming he was Catholic did this start building walls between you and the homestead? yeah it did it was very divisive between my dad and I although I think he did his best he could to be understanding about it but he argued with me he invited some priests that he knew to come in and argue with me and trying to change my mind and I realized at some point along the line that in addition to being angry and disagreeing with me that he also was kind of fearful about it he had ambitions for my younger brother to go to the Air Force Academy if he could get an appointment and he was fearful that perhaps that would be jeopardized by my becoming a CEO or perhaps his business would suffer or my ability to ever have a career would suffer and there were a lot of factors involved but it did create anger and distance between us it's clear to me that you came from a position where I think you identified yourself as an anti-communist and all of a sudden I don't think you're feeling so negatively about the people on the other side of the Iron Curtain how did you feel when the Berlin Wall came down? I thought it was a great cause for celebration I think we all are eager to own victories to claim victories and my perspective on the fall of the Berlin Wall was that it was brought about by the non-violent direct action of political activists primarily in East Germany so I saw it as a victory for non-violence what disturbed me about it was the way people in power in the United States, people who identified with militarism, people who identified with the kind of economic imperialism that's part of U.S. policy were claiming the fall of the Wall as a victory for them and as if they had torn down the Wall in Germany as a celebration of American politics I heard a speech by the head of the Chamber of Commerce in Dallas, Texas and he was holding up a piece of the Berlin Wall and claiming victory for the American way of life and I just was so aware of how many walls surrounded and isolated and protected and enriched the President of the Chamber of Commerce in Dallas, Texas that I decided that I wanted to write a song about some different walls that needed to come down now that the Berlin Wall was down let's listen to that song and we can say a little bit more about it afterwards the song is called "There is a Wall" and it's from Charlie King's album "Two Good Arms" there is a wall and it's the tallest wall of all they named the street for it where numbers roll and eyes go black, a wall of gold they buy the future with the past, they call it work just feels like money in the bank and way down at the foot of that wall where the guards hadn't barely seen her at all a woman standing, not asking, not demanding a poor woman standing with a hammer in her hand don't you want a piece of that wall when it comes down, don't you want to live to see it fall when it comes round, when that wall is gone no matter which side you were on and you say you took a piece of that wall now, don't you want a piece of that wall there is a wall and it's the meanest wall of all stretched from my doorstep straight back to 1492 it hides the ovens it hides the settlements, the homelands, pink triangles past books, shackles and tattoos and way down at the foot of that wall where the guards hadn't barely seen her at all an old man is standing, not asking, not demanding an old black man is standing with a hammer in his hand don't you want a piece of that wall when it comes down, don't you want to live to see it fall when it comes round, when that wall is gone no matter which side you were on can you say you took a piece of that wall now, don't you want a piece of that wall there is a wall and it's the oldest wall of all of fear holds danger out, desire in a wall that bristles each time the warden brings backtails inside we're starving to buy the bricks, to build the cells to bury love, to bar the door, to ban the strangers and way down at the foot of that wall where the guards and barely see at all a stranger is standing, not asking, not demanding a stranger is standing with a hammer for your hand don't you want a piece of that wall when it comes down, don't you want to live to see it fall when it comes round, when that wall is gone no matter which side you were on can you say you took a piece of that wall now, don't you want a piece of that wall [Music] that was there is a wall and we're talking about taking down some of the walls that hurt people, hurt our societies have you participated in taking down any particular walls that you're proud of to have had a piece of their descent? I am actually thinking as we're talking about physical walls and thinking about the wall between Israelis and Palestinians and thinking about the wall that we're building on our own southern border to prevent people coming into this country from Central America and South America, I haven't taken a piece of those walls down I have been able to change myself and I think that a lot of divisive walls that were just part of growing up in the 1950s in America you know, you've already mentioned how anti-communism didn't really sustain itself as an ideology for me that I came to know and respect people who were on the other side of that wall the civil rights movement other liberation movements think about gay and lesbian liberation movements have really kind of challenged a lot of narrow notions that I grew up with and every time I challenge a prejudice in myself and every time I write a song about that and I think I do take down a piece of the wall that might be there in my own consciousness and then the song becomes an invitation for other people to see that process going on and maybe look at the walls in their own mind You've written a song called "Don't Ask Don't Tell" which is really about taking down those walls did you have to confront homophobia in yourself before you could get around to writing a song like that? Well, I'm pleased to report that my background was so conservative I didn't even know enough to be homophobic actually, when I went away to college I declared my major as classics I was a Latin and Greek major I didn't last too long, but it was last long enough that I was hand-picked to be the roommate for the only other Latin and Greek major in my freshman class a fellow named Howard Seagriss Howard was a political activist from Alabama, he had been active in the civil rights movement and Howard was gay and pretty open about it too I have to laugh at myself because it was only about a year later that I finally understood that was all about I just came into it from a position of ignorance The good news is that when I finally did begin to understand a little bit about homosexuality my reference point was my best friend in the world, Howard Seagriss Howard was the big part of my understanding that whatever people's sexual preference was they were people first and you judge people not I mean, I don't hardly judge anyone on their sexual behavior because I don't hardly know what anyone is up to sexually but I learned from Howard that I don't allow a label to be used to dismiss someone who's obviously such a valuable person in the world Well, the song you wrote about is called Don't Ask Don't Tell that comes from the Clinton era, doesn't it? Yeah, it was specifically written in response to the early Clinton presidency and it's the lesson that I think we'll learn over and over again which is that presidential candidates make a lot of promises and very often they don't deliver on them Clinton and Gore had gotten support from gays and lesbians because they said that they would support gay rights and specifically that they would support gay rights within the military then when Clinton was elected president and he was asked to deliver on that promise what he came up with was that very sorry policy of Don't Ask Don't Tell that phrase seemed very important to me because I knew that there was nothing supportive or healthy or progressive about that phrase, that that was a policy that was a personal sellout when we were talking during the taping of Song of the Soul you had mentioned that I wrote songs about real people that I had encountered or had read about and this is one of the early songs that I wrote was about fictional characters, I created the characters in this song I don't often do that, I usually write about people who are living and breathing and walking around are historical figures but I created these two characters Wayne and Wanda as a way of looking at the impact of Don't Ask Don't Tell and how the ways in which gays and lesbians could respond to it Wayne was a bashful kid grew up on Nashville, dreamed of the smokey old west his dad's a straight shooter told Wayne a recruiter would help him put hair on his chest signed up for Fort Benny, he liked all the men he made friends with a shake and a grin met the many like most had a bar off the post, it's the first place Wayne ever fit in but the neon sign over the bar hung under the howitzer shell flash the saddest words Wayne ever saw Don't Ask Don't Tell Wanda could flaunt it flew just what she wanted, got started in our OTZ I did all the men outranked half of Fort Benny, outspoken, outrageous and free night was her cover she'd waltz her wild lovers out under the big Georgia but tonight it was raining and she ran into Wayne in the heart of that same old saloon and the neon sign over the bar hung under the howitzer shell flash the saddest words they ever saw Don't Ask Don't Tell Wayne mumbles out he she says hello cowboy I don't believe we've met before Wayne's new in the service he gulps his drink nervously keeping one eye on the door she says it's no crime here is this your first time here he raises his glass to the sign she says everyone in here's got their own opinion now you're gonna listen to mine what I read in that sign is a forward prescription for life in your own private hell it's the great compromise they say where are the skies and everything's gonna be swelled I say you're only as sick as your secret only the truth sets you free and you're only alone till you're speaking ask me tell me Wayne smiles at Wanda then flags the bartender Wanda says this one's on the this sits off in stories old guilt and old glory full secrets and old memory they plan their attack Wanda covers his back while Wayne pulls the plug on the sign as they walk across the park in London rain finally starts to stop big old moon starting to shine old you're only as sick as your secret only the truth sets you free you're only alone till you speak it ask me tell me yeah you're only alone till you speak it ask me tell me ask me that was Don't Ask Don't Tell Charlie King's song what are some of the other political concerns that you've been applying your spirit to what are the other top two or three that you've been involved in well both Karen and I have for quite a long time been involved with something called the journey of hope which is I guess I'd call it a pilgrimage that happens on the average of once a year murder of victims family members organize this pilgrimage to speak out against the death penalty these are people who've lost the family member or a loved one or a close friend to a violent crime and have gone through the very seductive judicial process that says we will give you a sense of relief and closure for your grief and anger by executing the person that did this tremendous damage to your lives and they find themselves drawn into that system and they find themselves bankrupt as a result because they're not healed by it and because it becomes a cheap substitute for what they really need which is meaningful support counseling advocacy friendship love financial support while they're alive they're shattered things like that and so Karen and I have been working with the journey to try to end the barbaric practice of capital punishment here in the United States a very seductive policy it's very difficult politically not to support the death penalty because it has been put out in America as a way to make people safe there are a lot of people in America who are getting either politically successful or financially successful or both by promising people safety and security they have not been able to deliver that but you know you just keep saying if you want to be safe support the death penalty if you want to be safe support military spending if you want to be safe support homeland security and so America is not a society that is free of violence even though we've been executing people for 20 years and more since the Supreme Court decision death penalty does not reduce the level of violence in society as a matter of fact usually in the wake of an execution there's a spike in violent crime so although politicians pander and the people that profit from prison and war and capital punishment lobby it doesn't deliver what it promises which is some kind of safety and reduction of violence let's listen to your song Charlie it's who will be next on the gallows and it's by Charlie King I think I'd just like to mention statistically that here was an execution that was publicized and broadcast around the world and in the week following the hanging of Saddam Hussein which is starting point of the storm over a hundred men women and children died from hanging in a way that was directly related to the hang of Saddam Hussein is falling through space with a prayer on his lips and fear in his face deep in the green zone they savor sweet release immortal defiance he drops through the air while soldiers like pit bulls baiting a bear make him by contrast the hero of the peace who White House can claim one more mission complete Iraqi is in Michigan dance in the street she hides in Baghdad unleashed eyes before eye the body count surges the war plunders on while they look for a leader who's ruthless and strong like the one they just hung which begs the question why why do we never grow weary of death condemned by the world or betrayed by a kiss guilty for innocent forget or miss and who will be next on the gavel from bunk beds and ceiling fields rafters and shells copy cat children are hanging themselves as if it's a game watch what they do they do what they watch without judgment or hope a heart of this world at the end of its world twisting in circles learning that it's all true [Music] [Music] yes Saddam was guilty please keep in mind we paid for his sins until he stepped out of line will support any son of a bitch but he's got to be our [Music] and when we ever grow weary of this the extravagant hand or the personalest fist you play by our rules or you cease to exist and who will be next on the gavel [Music] [Music] that was who will be next on the gallows it's such a sad sad story that we have all this killing we've got a president who's a kind of a execution of president and it hasn't seemed to work in our favor very much as it I don't know of any place where they've experienced a reduction in violent crime as a result of the death penalty I know that in Canada about I think 30 years ago Canada decided to eliminate capital punishment and they've had a steady decrease in violent crime since then one good reason for that that is worth noting which is if you don't say we're going to deal with violence by executing violent people then you have to come up with another solution and so for the last 30 years Canada has been finding ways to reduce violence and to address violent crime in their society in those ways of proven effective in a way the death penalty comes a kind of short circuiting of that process one of the songs that I think that you've written that is a great antidote to kind of negative feelings and it's one that touts a great success I think I heard you in concert 25 years ago talk about this song and how it resulted from your own facing a defeat is my memory correct? I may have quoted Cesar Chavez who was an early part of my political education and he said we've had so few victories we have to celebrate our defeat with what he said I think there was a bit of tongue in cheek in it but it was a statement that stuck with me I think that it can be discouraging for people who sort of set out with the idea of well in my lifetime I would like to see racial justice and economic justice and an end to war and I'd like to clean up the environment and reverse environmental degradation and all of the things that people who do take on a mission in life they address these issues and you know you think about Pete Cesar who is approaching the age of 90 and all this life he's been working for things and there aren't so many things that you can point to and say there we put that on the rest we've gotten rid of that problem I mean it's not to gain say what he's done as an activist I mean as a singer he's done an enormous amount but as an activist he has been primarily responsible for reclaiming and cleaning up the Hudson River but I don't think he would say the environment is better off today than it was when he first started his crusade and I don't think he would say although he's been a lifelong advocate for peace that were any closer to being a peaceful society than when we started so you have someone like that who devotes their whole life to affirming life and affirming the goodness of the world and you get to the end of your life and you have to ask yourself you know what have we really accomplished I was really attracted to the story of the Hobbit because for one thing it's a victory story and we need victory stories and we need to be reminded of them and also because it was not a victory story based on the might of armies I was kind of angered by the Lord of the Rings movies because they were primarily battle movies they were primarily these huge war scenes and what I like about the Hobbit is that the turn of the story and the victory came not because of a mighty army or because of who had the greatest strength but someone with a sense of mischief and integrity and someone who in kind of quiet ways stuck with a mission and won that mission in ways that are within all of our reach we could all do what Dilbo bag and we don't need a helicopter or an army or even a big city well it all started out at a party they say all the guests were in mind by a stranger in gray you would just a whole body never tempted to strain they were all for adventure Dilbo what would you say well you would not say yes but you would not say no and somehow in your heart it just knew you would go I wasn't there gold or they're lost for the full but the time just seemed right at night so long ago yes it did so years to you below for women by dragons are dragging me down oh I guess it's all right just to fight the good fight bought a victory wouldn't hurt everyone said oh I know here's to you below for women for coming back home with the prize thanks to you I'm recalling the dragons are followed and the little holes everywhere we're on the rise yes we are the way wasn't easy or so I've been told the journey was long the nights were so cold you were always fair game for the goblins and trolls and at the end started dragging on a mountain of gold what with wizards and tools and the elm is full too you're dead off a bit more than a hobbit and shoe and at the end of it all there's a job you must do though most of them doubted that you'd see it through but you did so years to you below for women by dragons are dragging me down oh I guess it's all right just to fight the good fight bought a victory couldn't hurt everyone said oh I know here's to you below for women for coming back home with the prize thanks to you I'm recalling the dragons are followed and the little holes everywhere we're on the rise yes we are the great dragon sits on his gold in his cave there's a tiny old tunnel as dark as the grave and in it a hobbit with a mission to save oh in all of your life you were never so brave with your great ring of power and your small elm is sore you riddle the dragon you burgled his board and you mark that one week spot that the rest of the Lord then you skipped off the day like while the dragon my lord now the dragon is dead in his gold they divide though for bride and for grief are too many but the greatest of treasures was hidden inside of a hobbit who found it though one time he tried yes he did so years to you below for women by dragons are drag me down well I guess it's all right just to fight the good fight bought a victory couldn't hurt everyone's in a wild road here's to you below for women for coming back home with the prize thanks to you I'm recalling the dragons are part and the little folks everywhere we're on the rise yes we are yes we are that was song for a hobbit Charlie King singing it it's a beautiful song a great inspirational one for us little folk which you know in a life of service as you have done activism you really do have to seize on even the little victories you mentioned when I was talking to you another time that you've basically wanted to keep your income so that you don't have to be contributing to the war machine have you attempted to practice and live as a war tax resistor or in one form or another in one form or another and I've had mixed results the way it started was during the Vietnam War when I was working as an orderly I found myself in the uncomfortable position of exempting my body from the war effort by being a conscientious objector and then supporting the war effort by paying taxes so I withheld a portion of my taxes during the second year of my work as an orderly at a hospital doing CO service and that kind of got me on the radar screen for the IRS and they wrote and said you know well you have to pay those taxes and I wrote back and I said well I won't pay them and here's why and and eventually they just got tired of chasing me I kind of dropped out of the economy in the sense that that job as a hospital orderly was the last salary job I ever had or I slipped into the dark realm of folk music once I started working as a folk singer I just planned my income each year so that it would fall just short of the level at which I would have to pay taxes and I was able to do that for years and then I kind of like lots of folks I think got sort of drawn into a higher income bracket you know the kids were going to college and there was just more economic demands and I wasn't able to shoulder my part of that burden and still keep my income that low so I went through a period of time where I was contributing to the tax system and and now lately the last few years now that my kids of college I've been able to ratchet my income back down again but I realized that I'm very fortunate to be living in a two-income family to have my kids be grown up and off on their own and I know that it's a very difficult thing for people to limit their income and I know other people that have taken a lot more riskier positions than I have and just flat out said you know never mind what I make I don't believe in the way the government is spending our tax dollars and I'm not going to put in anything our government relies on quiet consent our apathy in order to function and keep doing the things it does so anybody who stands up and says wait a minute let's take a look at what we're doing and let's change things and I'm willing to work and take risks commit civil disobedience whatever in order to put the brakes on I think are there on the side of the ages I want to remind our listeners that you can always find out Charlie King's music via his site it's Charlie King dot o-r-g he's not a comm he's an org or you can also find him via my website northern spirit radio dot o-r-g again and you'll find a link to Charlie's site I try and feature his music regularly on my spirit and action program because he's produced such wonderful music on a range of activist subjects I've always sensed Charlie that you've had this spiritual thread that tied the whole thing together it strikes me more so than with many people that you've got that thread even though you don't usually explicitly name it one of the things that I've thought over the years is that on the left on in liberal circles sometimes being religious can almost give you a black eye can be a reason for people not to want to connect with you have you experienced that at all I just think that's a pretty established phenomenon and it's not limited to the left wing I mean even it's a problem within the Democratic Party for example that for one reason or another people feel like their religious convictions either are private or are too embarrassing to talk about in public I think that that had an impact on me and it is true that not a lot of my stuff is explicitly religious there's a way in which I'm perfectly comfortable about that but I think also I have been kind of self censoring because there is such a suspicion in this country left the center that to be religious is to be allied with the religious right and so if you're upfront about your spirituality or if your spirituality is explicitly a Christian or explicitly Jewish or explicitly Muslim that that comes with a whole range of expectations the people say okay I know what you're like and I know what you think and I know you're gonna fall on this issue and so you do kind of invite of being type cast if you identify yourself with a particular religious tradition so I I have a lot of misgivings about any kind of self censorship I've done around that however I have a history of the in part of communities that meet the prayer and worship and whenever I find myself in a religious setting in and amassing a song I always prefer a secular song to a religious I don't know why what purpose is served by saying around in a group of religious people and singing oh I said a prayer and God loves me I mean I'm you know that's sort of like okay we can take that for granted we'll give you that you know but what's gonna really stretch us here and what's gonna stretch it here is a song that talks about some kind of a secular reality I think so I hope I've confused everybody here it's a mixed bag whether or not you're gonna sing confessional religious materials well I think we have to end our conversation very shortly and I'm just wondering if you got a song that you'd like us to do on the way out there's a song that probably has traveled farther than any other song I've written about two immigrants who lived where I lived in Massachusetts and they were executed by the state of Massachusetts in 1927 learning about them has been one of the big lessons in my life about bigotry about animosity that can be generated against people because they're immigrants and also about the nobility of work and labor and labor organizing on their names were Nicole Assacco and Bartolomeo Gonzetti Massachusetts has admitted that it was a miscarriage of justice that they were executed so it's a reminder to me that capital punishment is a very dangerous practice and that there are heroic people in this world and Sacco and Vancetti were two heroes and need to be remembered so that song two good arms might be a good one to go out on sounds good ideas to me two good arms it's by Charlie King and we'll use this to end today's spirit and action interview with Charlie King Charlie thanks so much for visiting with us today and for inspiring people nationwide and I think internationally to keep up the good work thanks I'd like to think that was the case and I appreciate all the thought you put into this interview so I really enjoy talking with you and the song is two good arms Charlie King who will remember the hands so white and fine that touched the finest linen that for the finest one who will remember the gentle words they spoke to name the lives of two good men a new sense or a joke all who know these two good are no I never had to rob or kill I can live by my own two hands and live well and all my life I have struggled the earth of all such crime who will remember judge Webster there one hand on the gavel the other resting on the chair will remember the hateful words he said speaking to the living in the language of the dead all who know these two good are no I never had to rock or kill I can live by my own two hands and live well and all my life I have struggled to rid the earth of all such crime who will remember the hand upon the switch that took the lives of two good men in the service of the rich who will remember one that gave the nod or the chamfer standing near at hand to invoke the name of God we will remember this God she'll make her we will remember there's four fish Heather we will remember all the strong arms and hands that never once found justice in the hands that rule this land and all who knew these two good men knew they never had to rock or kill each had lived by his own two hands and they lived well and all their life they had struggled to rid the earth of all such crimes and all our lives we must struggle to rid the earth of all such crime that was Charlie King's song two good arms about sequin benzetti and Charlie was my guest for today's spirit in action joining us from his home in Massachusetts the theme music for this program is turning of the world performed by Sarah Thompson this spirit in action program is an effort of northern spirit radio you can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website northern spirit radio dot org thank you for listening I am your host Mark helps me and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit may you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light this is spirit in action with every voice with every song we will move this world home with every voice every song we will move this world home and our lives will feel the echo of our healing (upbeat music)