Spirit in Action
Praying for Peace, Paying for Peace, Part Three - Principles, Legality and Commitment
I have no hands but yours to tend my sheep. No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep. I have no arms but yours with which to hold. The ones grown weary from the struggle and weak from growing old. I have no voice but yours with which to see. To let my children know that I am out and out is everything. I have no way to feed the hungry souls. No clothes to give and make you the ragged and the morn. So be my heart, my hand, my tongue, through you I will be done. Fingers have I none to help I'm done. Welcome to Spirit in Action, my name is Mark Helpsmeet. Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Above all, I'll seek out light, love, and helping hands, being shared between our many neighbors on this planet, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. Today on Spirit in Action, we will once more visit the topic of War Tax Resistance and the issue of those who have religious and spiritual scruples against paying for war. We'll be talking about such issues as effectiveness and what the purpose of War Tax Resistance is, as well as the conflicts that War Tax Resistors face when they consider whether they want to obey the law, be effective, or honor their consciences. We'll start our exploration with the visit with Dan Lundquist, a Quaker from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Dan, thanks very much for joining me for Spirit in Action. Well, Mark, I'm happy to join you. I've happened to hear a few of your programs, and I think they're wonderful. Thanks very much for the encouragement. I believe that one of the programs you listened to was with another War Tax Resistor, or with two other War Tax Resistors. Robert Randall was one of them, and I think you know him, don't you? Well, Robert is very active with the National War Tax Resistance Coordinating Committee, and my partner Judith and I have met him on several occasions at their semiannual meetings around the country. Most recently was at the AIDS International Conference on Peace Tax Funds and War Tax Resistance, which was held in Washington, D.C., a few years ago. You mentioned that both you and Judith went to this War Tax Resistance Conference, and I recall correctly when I spoke with Robert, he mentioned that he is in a mixed marriage, that is to say that his partner is not a War Tax Resistor. How does this work out in your relationship with Judith? Well, I think any marriage is a mixed marriage. Each partner brings a variety of personal histories, a variety of personal beliefs, and gifts. Judith and I happen to have a partnership that is strongly based in the faith in God, and one of those aspects of our faith happens to be a similar concern with regards to military taxes and the requirement that we support our government's choice to use violence. We both have practiced before we met various ways of non-cooperation with government's requirement, and we've continued that since we first met. Judith is one individual who works very hard to reduce her tax liability. In fact, for several years now, she has not owed federal taxes because when everything is done with regards to her business income and so forth, she ends up with a loss. I, on the other hand, am one of the individuals who has never filed a federal income tax return. I have never voluntarily paid military taxes, although there have been a few occasions when my bank accounts have been levied and my salary has been garnished. So are you saying that you both have been relatively effective in your unwillingness to contribute to the military machine to pay war taxes? The effectiveness might be gauged with regards to how much money the federal government has received from each of us, and I think, on average, the federal government has received quite little from us from time to time, each of us has had some experience where there has been a levy or garnishment, mine was a little more substantial than Judith's happened to be. Judith, at one point, was, I think, garnished for something like $70 in unpaid federal excise tax for telephone service, that tax that went into effect originally in the late 1800s to help pay for the Spanish-American War, and has continued through today, although it's been changed quite a bit over the years, one thing a lot of your listeners might have heard about recently is that the telephone war tax for a long-distance service is no longer being collected, and, in fact, people are able to file for credit for the last three years of federal excise taxes collected on their telephone service. That's for long-distance. The local telephone service still continues to be taxed. How would you best gauge your effectiveness? I know that one way of doing it might be in terms of number of dollars that you've withheld, but there might be other ways, how would you gauge your effectiveness? Well, for me, my military tax resistance, non-cooperation with military taxes, has been very much a spiritual discipline, a spiritual journey. I think I've done as well as I can in regards to that spiritual discipline. I feel a little bit embarrassed to speak about success or failure on my part. Yes, the federal government has levied against my bank accounts and seized or garnished my salaries, and then I've been able to adjust how I make my income. I was working as a mainframe systems programmer when my salary was garnished. I had also been working for quite a few years as a consultant on the side with personal computers, and within a number of months, I was able to make a transition from full-time employment to part-time employment and then to full-time self-employment as a computer consultant, where I'm responsible for making payments to the federal government's war chest. And I guess that meant that you could be more effective in that it removed you from a situation in which they could reasonably easily grab your money. Right, that's true. The employers are aware that if they do not cooperate with the federal government and receiving salaries for back payment of taxes, that they themselves can be punished. The fines are quite hefty. I think I want to come at the idea of effectiveness again, but from a different point of view. One way to do it might be to say, what is your goal in doing more tax resistance? Is it to keep the dollars away from the military, from the federal government, to make the government change their policies, just to be faithful internally to what you do? There's a number of different possibilities. What's your goal as you do this refusal of military taxes? Well, I think you mentioned several of them, and I've heard other people say this. Lots of people advocate for a change in government policy as a way of preventing their change. They might say they're out there protesting so that I am not changed by government. For me, it has been that faith journey. Each time I receive some communication from the Internal Revenue Service about claims passed through war taxes, there's an opportunity for me to reflect on, is this something I need to continue doing? Is this something that I want to continue doing? To this day, my answer has been yes, I'm also aware that at some point that may not be the case. I may need to believe this particular witness down. I presently cannot imagine a scenario when that would happen, but I'm open to it happening. If the IRS were able to get all of the money that they say you vote, that you've withheld for military taxes, would that make you non-successful? No, no, I'm aware that a lot of people ask the question about what happens in those situations where the IRS not only is able to collect the original tax claimed due, but also penalties and interests, even if the amount were doubled or tripled, what I would have owed if I had cooperated with the collection of those war taxes, I would have sought myself successful in that I was true to my conscience. My conscience had not been subverted by the powers that be by government, so yes, I tend to think of myself as a success. I think the greatest success that I experience is when I'm able to have conversations with the like-minded people to provide counseling to those individuals who have the concern of military taxes, that they need information to help them make some choices in their lives, and I'm able to help provide information, to provide contacts, there are wonderful sources of information out there from the National War Tax Resistance Coordinating Committee from the War Resisters League and other places, and individuals. Dan, I think you're one of the people who are relatively evangelical, very outspoken about payment war taxes, that is to say that you value it highly as part of your discipline to speak to others, to ask them to look at their consciences and see if they're led to refuse war taxes. Is this an important part of practice for you? I'm very open about my faith with this regard, and I'm willing to share my story, to share my witness, and yes indeed it's a very important part of that faith witness. You are the people who seem to London ear when you have something to speak about war tax resistance. Well, the places tend to be peace and justice committed organizations or faith communities. The attendance is usually individuals who have strong faith. There are those who are interested in exploring what the ramifications would be for them personally to what risks they would be exposed. They'd like to know what are the many ranges of responses might best fit their situation, their needs. And it's important, I think, for everyone to realize that there is a broad variety of responses that people have found that meets their particular needs. Almost as many ways of responding to this concern as there are people who hold the concern. And time to time I'm asked the question of how many people actually are war tax or military tax resistors. I was asked a few years ago by a reporter from one of the local major newspapers, that's very question. And my response was that visible activists in Minnesota on the concern of military taxes could perhaps be numbered in a few dozens. But beneath the surface, those who are not visible, I have found that there are probably thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of individuals who less visibly practice some form of non-cooperation. There are many people who work diligently to reduce their tax liabilities below owing any federal taxes for the very specific purpose of reducing the amount of money that they are responsible for providing to the military. I want to explore some more about how both you and Judith got involved in military tax resistance. You said before that both of you were involved in that before you met, how did you get involved in it and when was that? Well, I'm going to go back just a little further than that to my teenage years in junior high school and high school. I had the opportunity to be raised in a Lutheran faith tradition and we had confirmation in Lutheran's small catechism, it was a wonderful opportunity for we as youth to discuss amongst ourselves our own understanding, our own faith, also express some of our questions and concerns. One of the concerns I had was about how is it that here we are Christians, disciples of Jesus' gospel of non-violence, yet our church, our denomination in the Lutheran Church was willing to submit itself to the rule of government which supported our basic faith in Jesus' gospel of non-violence, to the effect that people who were drafted or subject to the draft would typically not be allowed a conscientious objector status because they were Lutheran. My understanding is that Quakers over the years have had a more ready claimed conscientious objector status. So, when the time came during the Vietnam War in the 1960s, late 1960s, when I was subject to be called up for military service and I claimed conscientious objector status, my draft board said no, I was not a conscientious objector. I had an opportunity to appeal that in person before the draft board and the draft board again said no, Dan Lundquist is not a conscientious objector. For reasons of medical condition, I ended up being classified as 4-F, not currently suitable for military service, so at that time my bodily service for the military became moved a mood issue, but the military taxes was still an issue. I found that I could not, in conscience, pay others to do what I could not and would not do myself. In fact, one of the things I spoke about as I recall it with my draft board is that it would be acceptable to me to serve in a way that provided non-violence conflict resolution and that's still something that I'm willing to do today. Let me get this straight down. In the late '60s, when you made your claim as a conscientious objector, were you still identifying as a Lutheran to the draft board? Well, I was very committed to my spiritual experience within the Lutheran Church and continued to attend our weekly church services, but one of the things that happened to me during that time was that I found myself drawn to silent worship and I myself as I was with the rest of the congregation in church on Sundays would sit in the pew throughout the church service in silence. It was an important opportunity for me to be ministered to by the Bible readings, by the music, by the profession of faith of those around me, but it was something that I found that I myself could not participate in at that time. After meeting Judas, Judas realized that I was one who might find some resonance amongst people of similar faith that she had experienced in the Quaker faith communities, so she suggested that we attend meeting for worship at Minneapolis Friends meeting a few years after we met and when we did, it was a very emotional experience for me because it was very much like finding my spiritual home for the first time. And did you also find a home for your concerns about payment of taxes for the military? Well, in general, there are a lot of friends who hold this concern about military taxes. Quakers have a long history of conscientious objection to both bodily military service and to government's requirements that we pay the war or military taxes, so it was enlightening for me to find that history and people who were willing to speak to that concern. For many decades of my life, I thought I was unique. I had never encountered another military tax resistor until the late 1980s. Judas being one, but people from our Minneapolis Friends meeting, other faith communities have their own people who hold their very same concern. It's not a unique concern amongst Quakers or brethren or Mennonites, there just seems to be a greater preponderance of individuals who are willing to be open and vocal about their concern. Dan, I'm wondering if you could flesh out for me a little bit what the base beliefs are that make paying for military taxes wrong from your point of view. I heard you mention Jesus' gospel of non-violence, but I'm wondering if you could put it into more explicit or perhaps more concrete terms. I'm sure, for instance, some people will say, yes, it's good not to kill, that's important, but it might be necessary in terms of killing one person to save 10 people or other self-defense or other forms of killing. What in your conceptualization makes it wrong to pay for the military taxes and also what makes you a conscience subjector? I heard in Sunday School Jesus witness to non-violence throughout his ministry. I heard that people of faith often were put into very difficult situations of oftentimes relenting to the requirements of government or adhering to their conscience. When it comes to relating to individuals, there is a term used amongst friends speaking to that of God and everyone. I have heard a number of friends mention that to strike back at someone else is to strike back at God, I recognize that I have a different understanding than many Christians. I believe many Christians would hold it as you suggested that it would be the least evil to kill one person in order to save 10 people. Violence and guns were not Jesus way. I think, Dan, that a lot of people imagine that if you're a war tax resister, if you don't pay your taxes, right away the government will be on your doorstep and they'll come and they'll haul you off to jail, that kind of thing. It's been your experience and what kind of hardships have you faced as you've been a military tax refuser over these number of years. Has it meant true hardships for you? My experience with representatives of the Internal Revenue Service have been, for the most part, quite congenial, although quite insistent on their part that the tax is owed and that it's not for them to say whether or not I owe it. For the most part, this has not been an issue of any great physical suffering for me. Yes, from time to time, monies have been seized by the IRS and it is a distress to lose those monies. I try to practice centeredness and I might have been a little bit off-center during some of those stressful times. But it was a commitment to nonviolence and one of the things that I have learned and try to practice is that the commitment to nonviolence starts within us, each and every one of us. That's where it starts. If you could address the Administration, if you could speak to Congress, if you could speak en masse to those governmental officials responsible for this kind of policy, what would you want to say to them? What would be the message you'd want to deliver them about this topic? It was a sad experience for me as a young citizen of this country to learn that my government, for whom I have the greatest respect, could not respect my faith in Jesus Gospel of nonviolence and actually our government sought to subvert the people's faith. It seems to me that government has chosen to supplant God and the people's faith and trust in God with faith and trust in government, that government's faith is in violence and violence as savior with superior violence being the superior savior. I can understand each individual as an individual seeing that it's important for them to choose violence, but I think it's important in this democracy which has a rich history of respecting religious freedoms to provide those individuals, those nonviolence citizens in our society, with equal opportunity to serve our country nonviolently. That sounds like a good message to deliver to our government officials, and hopefully they'll tune into this program and they'll hear your message. I want to thank you Dan for your long-standing witness, your many years of witness, both as a Lutheran and as Quaker, and I also want to thank you for the example of how to deal with these issues within your marital relationship with your partner because after all, peace starts at home. So thanks again Dan. You're welcome Mark, thank you. That was Dan Lundquist, a member of Minneapolis Friends Meeting, who's been a war tax resister for a number of years now. He was the first of two guests that I'm featuring today in my continued exploration of war tax resistance and the various ways it is practiced and thought about, especially important with the upcoming April 15 deadline for paying of our taxes and the implications that tax day holds for those of us with tender consciences, not wishing to pay for war and preparations for war. Before we go on to our second guest, Sue Klossen, let's listen to a song by Charlie King and Karen Brandow, called Don't Pay Taxes. In New York City in 1982, when a million people took to the streets, I'll bet some of you were there. We learned that Secretary of State Alexander Hag was asked to comment on this march and his comment was, "Let them march all they want, just as long as they continue to pay their taxes." So in that spirit, we offer. The IRS says pay your dues, business doesn't, why should you, don't pay taxes. And run skipped a year or two, show the tax man you're no fool at, don't pay taxes. You can end this yearly aggravation, just pretend that you're a corporation. And tell them that you're working hard, drilling oil wells in your yard, don't pay your taxes. A package you don't want or need, arrives this April, COD, don't pay taxes. A few demented terrorists have got you on their mailing list, don't pay taxes. Please report these sleazy overspenders, mark your tax return, return to center, call John Ashcroft or any fed, it's obscene, unsolicited, don't pay your tax. The dollars that you pay for all you people in our South and North, don't pay taxes. If some escaped to this fair, let your dollars send them back again, don't pay taxes. The generals say they want you where they got you, they got you buy in black hot hella cocktails. You work for peace, you pay for it, if you hate war, don't pay for it, don't pay your tax. Yeah, tell the IRS this year, let 'em know the box stops here and don't pay your tax. [Applause] That was Charlie King and Karen Brandell with their song "Don't Pay Taxes." It's our topic today, paying taxes or rather those who don't pay taxes because of conscious subjection to paying for war. And our second guess for today on that same topic is Sue Clausen. Sue is a mennonite who is torn between her desire to obey the law, be effective and to respect her conscience. And so, dedicates a very sizable chunk of time working for the passage of what's called the Religious Freedom Peace Tax Fund. Sue, welcome to "Spirit in Action." Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here. Sue, your witness about war tax resistance is a bit different than the other people I've been speaking with as part of this series and I was wondering, how was it that you came to find my name and then contacted me, volunteering to speak to our audience? Alan Gamble, from the National Campaign for Peace Tax Fund, emailed me to ask if I would be interested in being interviewed. Our story had appeared in the booklet "Congress Shall Make No Law" that came out a number of years ago, stories of religious freedom and conscience in the United States for the National Campaign for Peace Tax Fund. And I served for a decade as a congressional district contact person for the National Campaign for Peace Tax Fund and continued to be involved in the organization and care very deeply about that work. I believe you've been a volunteer with that organization for a number of years, but in quite a few hours. How big is the organization and what does it involve? It's a small but committed group of people and has a few paid staff people, but mostly its citizens just writing and speaking out to their elected officials to ask for a legal way to be able to live with our conscience, to be able to sleep at night, to be able to live a legal way to live out our faith and our belief that does not mean that we're paying for war for other people to be killed. And why is that important to you? Well, that's been a journey for me. I did not grow up with any discussions of those issues per se. In late high school, I started asking those questions based on discussions that were happening in English class and just general awakening of my mind. And I remember, I was living in Canada at the time, I remember going to the parliament buildings in Ottawa, looking at an inscription carved into the walls there and saying we thought it better to die for freedom than to live without it, being very moved by that and reflecting that I deeply respected, the sacrifice, the desire to do something beyond oneself for the good of others, yet at the same time I felt so strongly that I felt strongly called to something higher that I could not participate in war in killing others for my freedom. I felt called through Christ's call to love our enemies and so I had many questions. I ended up studying at the University of Waterloo, I was majoring in mathematics because that's a passion of mine and planning to teach mathematics at the secondary school level. But I stayed at a dorm that was run by the Mennonite Church and I knew nothing about Mennonites except that they raised pardons and wore black, but those types of Mennonites were more modern, a different, a sect of Mennonites. Anyway, it was a spiritual spring time for me there. For the first time I met people who not only shared the questions I had, but they had a whole theology worked out about it and found it practical. They found it practical to live out Jesus' words, to love our enemies, to turn the other cheek, to practice life-giving conflict resolution. I learned about restorative justice and that's a lot of my work now. I volunteer about half-time as President of Finger Lakes Restorative Justice Center which is life-giving work that takes conflict, takes harm and hurt and looks at who has been affected, what's happened, how each person has been affected and looks at what needs to happen to make things as right as possible. So I learned all those things about what to do with conflict. I learned about pacifism, but pacifism is not about being pacifism, it's about looking at evil, looking at harm and hurt, straight in the face and transforming it to something life-giving. And that's what I want to do with my life, that's what I want to do with my hours, that's what I want to do with my dollars. So I consider myself a pacifist, I cannot go to war, I cannot in good conscience pay for war and I have no legal way to earn an ordinary living and not pay for war. I want a legal way, it's not enough to have exemption from conscientious objection status for serving in war, war is mostly fought now with dollars, it definitely takes people, but even more so it takes massive amounts of dollars by all of our citizens and I cannot in good conscience pay for that. That's quite the journey you've had, did you grow up in a religious family? Yes, I was raised in religious tradition, my parents were convention Baptist, we were other times Christian missionary alliance, wherever we found the gospel to be preached in a solid way, anyway my parents had their face with the center of their lives and that was communicated to me, they looked at living out their face in everything that they did. But the ideas of pacifism were not part of our journey, definitely a faithful stewardship in all we did. It always mystifies me being part of a denomination that looks so seriously at the Serma on the Mount and other things straight from the Bible, that people can call Christ the center of their life and not seriously engage with the ideas of non-violence, pacifism, many things Jesus talked about, do you have some sense of how that comes about from your experience with your upbringing? In some ways that was just sort of out there and not examined, I know when I started coming home with these ideas, coming home from college, my mother was a little shaken by this thought that would I not protect my family if you know an invader came in and my father understood more readily I think, but I think we had never had those conversations and it just was not in areas that was addressed. We didn't have any close friends in the military so it really just was not addressed. On a local level I definitely saw on a level of family, I definitely saw my parents living out loving our enemies, I never saw them returning evil for evil, I saw them living that out in their daily lives but the whole question of war didn't really affect their daily lives and we just didn't address it. No, I'm assuming that they're part of a church that does regular Bible study and so I guess part of my question is how did they miss it? You know, blindness is so easy and that's what I pray in parenting and life in general. God, take off my blinders because it's so easy to get wrapped up in a tradition to preach on the well-tried trail of your own nomination, your own tradition and be really quite blind to large other areas so it was really quite easy. Blindness is really easy. I really can't give any other explanation than that. I don't know how that was missed but it really was effortless. That makes as much sense as any other explanation. So you mentioned growing up in Canada but I know that you and your husband, Victor, now live in New York. Coming from Canada to the world's only superpower, have you experienced a change in your sense of personal responsibility for the military problems of the world, for how the military presence of the United States affects the rest of the world? I've experienced more direct feeling of responsibility living here. I know that we in Canada would have been, if we had the same amount of power in the world, we would be likely to be swayed into misusing it just as happens in the United States. Power corrupts wherever you are and so I don't think of us in Canada as whole year just having less opportunity to misuse power. One thing that did change for us was the percentage that you can deduct of donations from Canada to the States. I want to back up and give a little story here. One influence that was very strong in our marriage started before my husband and I were married. We were in the same Sunday school class in our Mennonite church at Sterling Avenue Mennonite Church in Kitchener, Ontario. One came and made a presentation to our Sunday school class about war tax resistance and such issues. This person advocated that if we cared about peace and justice and about being conscientious objectors to war, if we were pacifists, that at the minimum we should be looking at doing everything within our legal means to resist paying taxes to fund war. They suggested that we look at donating the maximum that you can legally donate in Canada which is 20% of your income. My husband and I, we were probably not yet engaged or were just about to become engaged but anyway, as we became engaged, we basically made that commitment that we would work towards donating 20% of our income. He was in graduate school and I was teaching at a private high school when we got married or right after we got married and we weren't able to start rightfully donating 20% right then but we were also weren't paying any taxes. But before he was done graduate school and we already had a child and I was working just part-time. We were able to be up to about that 20% mark. Then we moved to the states, the ceiling for what you could donate became 50% and we have never reached that 50% we've never made that full decision but we have worked up to 30% of our income while raising our children and so on. I've been largely without income during those years. As a couple, my husband in particular was not comfortable with us being war tax resistors as in not paying taxes but we could be very much together in doing many things within our legal means to dramatically reduce the amount of taxes we pay. So we took a larger house than we might otherwise have taken to have a larger mortgage as part of that. We dedicated that to be, there's space in the basement which it's a beautiful, we finished the basement, it's a beautiful walk out basement and we designated that as retreat space for people who are overworked, underpaid such as missionaries, human rights workers, people who work in social services, writers and so on. So before we moved into this place, we committed that space. So we look at thinking more money than we would have for our own needs. We've sunk more money into our mortgage. We look at donations, we look at other tax shelters. We're constantly thinking about reducing taxes for the sake of paying less towards the military. So that reduces but does not eliminate the taxes that you pay for military purposes? No. And so it's a constant source of pain and the way that I have come to some sense of peace with my conscience and it is not, it's not peace with my conscience but it's my agreement with my conscience that I will stay involved with the Peace Tax Fund seeking a legal recourse for those of us who find it a daily painful existence to live here and to be supporting the military with some of our taxes. We make decisions as a couple and we look at what together we can do and what decisions we can make and these are the decisions we've made but it's painful. We realized that we could not continue to live here if we were war tax resistors because my husband is not a citizen and we are still here for at least for now but it is a daily painful reality to live at odds with our conscience. You said so that you and Victor come down in different places that you would rather I think be a war tax resistor but you have to work things out in your marriage as best you can. Your two examples of Mennonites are all or most Mennonites either war tax resistors or war tax resistors leaning. I would say most Mennonites are very open to people being war tax resistors and our congregation does give an annual donation to the Peace Tax Fund but most Mennonites are not personally war tax resistors. It's a very risky scary stance to take. It takes a lot of courage and you have to believe that it's worth it too because just resisting war taxes doesn't mean that you're stopping the military from getting your money because they come and they garnish it from your bank account. They take your vehicles and they get it anyway and is that worth it. Does that make sense? As I say, my husband and I have decided to take many steps towards reducing our taxes and that's the way we've decided to live with it and I have some close friends who are war tax resistors which I also deeply respect but again, they get it. There's no okay way. I mean the only way to be free of that is to absolutely live below the publishers line and then you're still in this society that has that as a fundamental priority and you're not able to do with the other life-giving things with income that we have been able to do which there's no good answer and I so cry for a legal recourse. And the idea of having legal recourse brings us back to the idea of the Peace Tax Fund. I think the current legal name of the bill is the religious freedom, Peace Tax Fund. Would you care to explain a little bit about how that would work, what the principle behind it is? People could opt to have that portion of their taxes that would have gone to the military, go to a fund that would be used for life-affirming purposes, well, it would just not go to the military budget, it would be just rerouted away from the military budget. So if only a handful of people did it, it would make no difference at all to the military budget. If half the country did it, then it would make a huge difference. That people would have to show a historic or religious, they had to show a longstanding commitment to country and its just objection. It's not that you can just check off a box on your tax form. So for people for whom it is an issue of religious freedom, there would be a recourse there. And that's what we're asking for, is for the freedom to practice our religion to be able to live with our conscience. So the way this works, Sue, does that mean if the Peace Tax Fund bill is passed and I'm a conscience objector and the military has a budget of $600 billion a year, does that mean that that $600 billion budget for the military is reduced by my decision? No, it doesn't. Again, if the military needs to conscript a certain number of thousand bodies, if I'm a conscientious objector, it doesn't mean that they send any less people, but it does mean that I'm not participating. Now if many, many people held that deep conviction, then it could become, instead of 50% of the budget, it could be 75% of the budget of the remaining people. And then the government might need to take notice and actually change the government's priorities. I can't automatically change the government's priorities. I have to do things that allow me to live with my conscience. You know, Sue, if you have a copy of the bill there, it would probably be helpful for us to get a fill for it. If you could read some of the actual language that they use in the bill. The bill says it's to affirm the religious freedom of taxpayers who are country-entricially opposed to participation in war, to provide that the income, estate, or gift tax payments of such taxpayers be used for non-military purposes, to create the religious freedom peace tax fund to receive such tax payments, to improve revenue collection, and for other purposes. It would be a win-win situation for the government because they would not have to go through all the costly process of trying to collect taxes from those who are not paying it from country-entric objections and it would actually improve their revenue collection. The uses of the Religious Freedom Peace Tax Fund, they will be allocated annually to any appropriation, not for a military purpose. And I'm just reading this here. So the Secretary of the Treasury would report each year to the committees on appropriations, the House of Representatives, and of the Senate on the total amount transferred into the Religious Freedom Peace Tax Fund during the preceding fiscal year, and the purposes for which that amount was allocated in that preceding fiscal year. And then that would be printed in the congressional record. Is there a website that our listeners could go to, to learn more about the Peace Tax Fund, and maybe to become a supporter if that's what they found they wanted to do? It's www.peacetaxfund.org, so that's all one word, peacetaxfund.org. So that's the national campaign for a Peace Tax Fund. And there's all sorts of literature available, displays, people can borrow. It's a wonderful resource. So thanks for working on that Peace Tax Fund on behalf of those of us with tender consciences. Your work with restorative justice is a whole nother story that I didn't talk to you about, but that sounds like great work, and in general just keeping the consciousness of our responsibility for war, and for the things done in our name, and with our dollars is really important. Thanks for your work. And thank you for your work, that's important. Thanks very much, Sue. ♪ Peace is the bread we pray ♪ ♪ Love is the river rolling ♪ ♪ Life is the chance we take ♪ ♪ When we make this earth our home ♪ ♪ Gonna make this earth our home ♪ ♪ Feel the cool breeze ♪ ♪ Blowing through the smoke and the heat ♪ ♪ Hear the gentle voices and the marching feet ♪ ♪ Sing and call back the fire, draw the missiles down ♪ ♪ And we'll call this earth our home ♪ ♪ Peace is the bread we pray ♪ ♪ Love is the river rolling ♪ ♪ Life is the chance we take ♪ ♪ When we make this earth our home ♪ ♪ Gonna make this earth our home ♪ ♪ We have known the atom, the power and pain ♪ ♪ We've seen people fall and in the killing rain ♪ ♪ If the mind still reasons and the soul remains ♪ ♪ It shall never be again ♪ ♪ Peace is the bread we pray ♪ ♪ Love is the river rolling ♪ ♪ Life is the chance we take ♪ ♪ When we make this earth our home ♪ ♪ Gonna make this earth our home ♪ ♪ Peace grows from a tiny seed ♪ ♪ As the acorn grows into the tallest tree ♪ ♪ Many years ago I heard a soldier say ♪ ♪ When people want peace ♪ ♪ Better get out of the way ♪ ♪ Peace is the bread we pray ♪ ♪ Love is the river rolling ♪ ♪ Life is the chance we take ♪ ♪ When we make this earth our home ♪ ♪ Peace is the bread we pray ♪ ♪ Love is the river rolling ♪ ♪ Life is the chance we take ♪ ♪ When we make this earth our home ♪ ♪ Gonna make this earth our home ♪ That was Fred Small with his song "Peace is." You've been listening to a Spirit in Action interview with two war tax resistors. This was the third in the three-part series I've been doing about concerns for paying for war. You just heard an interview with Mennonite Sue Klossen and before that there was a Quaker we visited with Dan Lundquist. You can hear these programs again via my website NorthernSpiritRadio.org and on that site you can find a lot more programs and you can find the music that's shared in these programs and other helpful links in information. The theme music for Spirit in Action is "I Have No Hands but Yours" by Carol Johnson. Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeet@usa.net. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. I have no higher cause for you than this to love and serve your neighbor. Enjoying selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor. Enjoying selflessness. [Music] [MUSIC PLAYING]