Spirit in Action
Todd Dennis and Veterans for Peace
Todd Dennis served in the US Navy on an nuclear submarine from 1997-2003, experiencing a major shift in his world view during that time. Though he was in the military, he found himself wanting to join anti-war protesters when the US attacked Iraq in 2003, and he joined Veterans for Peace once back in the Chippewa Valley.
- Broadcast on:
- 19 Oct 2008
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I have no hands but yours to tend my sheep No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep I have no arms but yours with which to hold The ones grown weary from the struggle and weak from growing old I have no hands but yours with which to see To let my children know that I am out and out is everything I have no way to feed the hungry souls No clothes to give, and they give, the ragged and the morn So be my heart, my hand, my tongue, through you I will be done The enders have I none to help, I'm done The tangled knocks and twisted chains The strangle fearful minds Welcome to Spirit in Action, my name is Mark Helpsmeet Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion Creative action and progressive efforts, I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service Above all, I'll seek out light, love and helping hands being shared between our many neighbors on this planet Hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life I have no way to open people's eyes, except that you will show them how to trust the inner mind My guest today on Spirit in Action is Todd Dennis He's a student at UO Claire and a member of the local Veterans for Peace organization He served in the U.S. Navy on nuclear submarine from 1997 to 2003 And he had some eye-opening experiences during his time in the Navy Welcome to Spirit in Action, Todd Thanks for having me You're a student at UO Claire, what are you studying? I'm studying physics and I'm doing this thing called a dual degree program Where you go to UO Claire for three years and then transfer to either Madison or Minnesota for engineering And I'll be transferring after this semester down to Madison for mechanical engineering Well, I think that's going to be UO Claire's loss, you've been a valuable part of the Veterans for Peace here How long have you been involved with Veterans for Peace? Back after George Bush was reelected, we started getting together talking about what we're going to do as veterans Since there was no Veterans for Carrie anymore, and we decided we needed to come up with a group Where instead of just standing at the corners having our peace rallies and being known as the Veterans We had to come up and join a group or make up a group So that we had a name that people would recognize and we could get some FaceTime Where they would see us and they would know, oh, they're Veterans for Peace I've heard of that group, or, you know, they might look into it and say Veterans for Peace, what is that? And come and ask us and we could tell them what we are and what our beliefs are The Corps members joined the national group and we've had some meetings and set up some things that we've done We've had a big demonstration at the anniversary of the mission accomplished day recently And we're trying to get into local schools with opt-out forms that are authorized by the No Child Left Behind Act And we've had some success there locally in Chippewa and Menominee and Imandovi We've had very receptive staff at these schools who are trying to get these forms out to the kids so that they can opt out And not be harassed by military recruiters God married in a hurry and we had us a son back in 1973 I was drafted at the end of the Vietnam War Though I never did go overseas, but I remember the look on the ones who came back Their faces still haunt me so And I made myself a promise I would do what it takes So Jimmy didn't have to go, 'cause if Jimmy didn't have to go There's nothing I wouldn't do That boy means the world to me and he hardly means the world to you I don't know why we throw lives away and come home with nothing to show I only know I would sell my soul if Jimmy didn't have to go I went from the army to the army reserves There's nothing that moves I can't fix I didn't think much about it just a weekend war-rigger Then I turned 36 and they called me in and they shipped me out I'm thinking now I could've said no But I whispered to Cathy we would finish it early So Jimmy didn't have to go, 'cause if Jimmy didn't have to go There's nothing I wouldn't do That boy means the world to me and he hardly means the world to you I don't know why we throw lives away and come home with nothing to show I only know I would sell my soul if Jimmy didn't have to go They said it wouldn't come to hand to hand Though the borders just a mile away Well the enemy surprised us from behind They were running back the other way Guess they were looking for a place to hide Guess they were looking for a face they'd known Wondering what the hell they were doing there And why they ever had to go But if Jimmy didn't have to go There's nothing I wouldn't do That boy means the world to me and he ought to mean the world to you I don't know why we throw lives away and come home with nothing to show I only know I would sell my soul if Jimmy didn't have to go I killed a soldier with a silent knife I pulled him down on top of me I looked into the eyes looking back into mine He couldn't have been seventeen I held him as he died so quiet I held him as he died so slow I held him until I knew it wasn't enough That Jimmy didn't have to go They sent me up for court marshal 'Cause I wouldn't do a thing I was told Their lawyer said I was a coward Mine said I was just too old But it wasn't the fear of the bombs above Or the fear of the gas below I'm afraid to meet the eyes of the irankee father Who's Jimmy had to go 'Cause if it's Jimmy didn't have to go God there's nothing I wouldn't do That boy means the world to me now And he ought to mean the world to you I don't know why we throw lives away And come home with nothing to show I only know there's a time to say no And Jimmy didn't have to go It sounds like you are fully committed To working against getting people into the military Is that a feature just of this war? Or is it how you are thinking about the military in general? Well I would say that it was spawned mainly by this war Which we were led to in by a bunch of lies This war has galvanized my feelings To help people make up their own minds Instead of being fed the same bunch of propaganda by these recruiters And hearing an alternative version Because the recruiters are the only ones That get the access to our schools So the students don't know the whole story They don't know if they're being lied to by their recruiters They don't know what it's actually going to be like Once they do go to boot camp And maybe not get the job that the recruiters said Hey you know you can have this job You're going to have a cush job sitting in an office all day And then they go to boot camp and they find out Oh no they got to carry a gun and go to the front lines In this war that we started in Iraq Todd you served for six years in the Navy Do you feel bad? Do you feel it was a mistake that you went in? I wouldn't say it was a mistake that I went in I went in because I wasn't really sure what I was going to do after high school And it sounded like a good idea that I could go join the military For six years because of the program I did And then I'd get some money for college And I could come back and go to college And I would have a good chance at making it through college without drowning myself in debt Because of the GI Bill and the Wisconsin State veterans benefits that you can get I wouldn't say that it's a mistake for someone to join the military But I think that they should know all aspects of what they're getting into And know the alternatives Know that there is something else besides the military they can do If they want to serve their country they can do the AmeriCorps or the Peace Corps or something like that It's not just about joining the military if you want to serve the country If you had to do it again, if now is the age in which they'd be asking you to go in How would you feel about it? What if they implemented the draft and say we want you to go to Iraq? How would you feel about that? If they tried to call me back now I would not go I would try to file for conscientious objector status Or something similar because I do not believe in this war We're not fighting a just war I think you did a whole lot of reading in between when you first went into the military And now what's your idea of what does constitute a just war? I'm not really sure that I know what is a justifiable war I guess it depends a lot on the situation as to whether or not a war is justifiable There's always alternative methods that should be looked at first Like getting together and talking about the situation and finding some other way to resolve What is happening then dropping bombs on a city so we can watch it on Fox News Are there elements of this war that you find particularly unjustifiable? Are there elements of this war that you find reprehensible? Well besides the fact that George Bush lied to us He made Colin Powell lie to the United Nations And Donald Rumsfeld was on television and he told us that he knew exactly where these weapons of mass destruction were So it's not just George Bush, it's everyone else that went along with him And their plan to invade Iraq when we didn't need to There were no weapons of mass destruction There was only a brutal dictator that was in power that we put in power there And now we wanted to take over for some reason And it's kind of disturbing that the American people who are supposed to support the troops Just sat by Idly and said yep if he says it it must be true And the same thing happened in the media in the US They said yep there must be weapons of mass destruction over there So we better go attack Iraq and get rid of the threat You were in the Navy at the time the September 11th attack happened And I think you were also in the Navy at the time that we attacked Iraq What were your thoughts at those times? Were you a pro war I guess at that time At either of those times or did you have different thoughts already percolating? Well in September 11th I was in a school actually and our boat had just gotten back from a deployment On that morning they gave us a phone call It was probably about 5.30 in the morning over in Hawaii where I was And they said you know that there had been an attack in New York or something like that We weren't really sure at that time they had woken the people up that were calling us from sleep too So they were kind of confused And they said you need to get all your stuff and come down to the boat immediately There's something going on we might have to go back on your way You know who knows what's going on So the boat just got back from deployment which is a six month away from your home port deal And I was still in school at that time I was supposed to be going to a leadership school So we get there and they're like you can't call home you got to stay on board You can't go top side and sit in the sun or whatever You just got to sit here and do nothing all day We couldn't do maintenance because we didn't know if we were going to go out to see Whatever we had no idea what was going on Most of the people sat and watched TV all day and watched the same images over and over again Of the planes hitting the towers and that was a pretty weird day Was your reaction on perceiving that the United States was attacked like oh good I get to go to war for the United States now? No it was more of confusion as to what was going on and why was this happening I guess a lot of people were questioning why But from what I was seeing at the boat there was a lot of war happy people that were like Okay let's go we can make a glass parking lot out of this country now You know we can bomb them into oblivion and I was like well You know we don't even know who did this and why should we bomb the whole country When they said oh it's al-Qaeda so why should we destroy all of Afghanistan When it's just a rogue group of individuals who are acting against us So it was very perplexing to see what was happening that day And there were a lot of other comments where they were using epithets against the Afghanistan people and Muslims in general for what they were for clothing And it was disturbing that people that you know you've been out to see with And you thought there were regular people like you and then all of a sudden they have all these racist attitudes It was very disturbing to see that [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] Do you think at that point your attitudes had already significantly shifted from what they were when you went in? Definitely for sure my attitudes had shifted by that time. Let me go back to tell you a little bit about how I got to shifting my attitudes. The first time when we went somewhere and I was kind of disturbed at what I saw was back in 1999 right after I met the boat. We went to the Philippines and we were the first submarine to go there since they had closed the Subic Bay base in the 90s. The scenes there were very drastic compared to what I have seen before and I now knew what the third world was. And when we were going out into the town we had to go over this river and it was called the Shit River because they used it for the bathroom and they used it to wash the clothes in and everything and it had a distinct odor and it was not like anything I had seen before. And also as we're driving through the roads to get to town there were people on the side of the road who are washing their clothes in the creek because that's the only water source that they had available to them. There was a lot of things that I saw in this country that kind of changed my attitudes. Although it was more subtle I think at that time than other events that have shaped me since I joined the military. One particular experience while we were there involved going to some government officials house with a bunch of my friends from the boat one who was actually a Filipino so he was welcomed in his native country. While we were there they served us fresh rice and some fresh fish that they had caught earlier that morning and we drank some beer and then we ran out of beer. So the official called the police and told them to bring us another case of beer. Well you don't see that every day I guess. After we did that the guy got out his 9mm pistol and he let some of my friends shoot the gun up in the air because I guess that's what they do for fun around there. And just seeing how he was treated having the police bring him beer and stuff like that and then compared to how the normal person in that country was treated having to wash their clothes in the creek it was kind of disturbing to me and I didn't really know what to think of it at that point and I guess I kind of just pushed it back in the back of my mind because we were really busy getting ready for a big examination which is called operational reactor safeguards examination which makes sure that we know how to operate the reactor and if there's an emergency or something like that. We know the actions to take and we can control everything so there's no release of radiation or fission products into the environment. After that time I didn't really think about much in the world or expand my views in any way until the summer of 2001 we were on deployment again and prior to going they told me I should fill out this paperwork if I thought I might re-enlist. Well I thought you know forty five thousand dollars tax-free for a couple more years I could probably go to short duty and get at least part of my education done while I'm still in. It sounded like a pretty good deal I might as well fill out the form and I'll think about it when we go on mission. So we got underway and left from home port and on one of our missions I just sat in the lower level watch where you're all alone and there's nothing to do because we're on mission. We're steaming around it I had one third doing circles trying to watch someone so I got to thinking and I thought you know I joined the military so I could get some money and go to school and I got done. And staying in for two more years that puts me at over eight years total and do I really want to make a career out of this. So I thought about it and I decided that I didn't want to do it for a career so I might as well not re-enlist because I didn't need the money and that wasn't the most important thing to me. I had other intentions with my life than to stay in for two more years. So I told the career counselor and my chief petty officer the guy that's in charge of the whole division that I wasn't going to re-enlist. Then comes the day that apparently I'd signed up to re-enlist for. I was doing a rig for dive checklist and I was in the maneuvering area which is the main control area in the engine room and all of a sudden I hear this MC announcement. Petty Officer Dennis please report top side for re-enlistment and I was thinking to myself why would I go up there I told him I wasn't going to re-enlist. So I just kept doing what I was doing to finish what I was doing and then we got underway and the career counselor comes up to me and he takes me aside and he goes petty officer Dennis do you know what you're doing? Why don't you think about all of the money that you're missing out on but not re-enlisting now and all I could think to myself was the money. There's a lot more to this than money and this guy's supposed to be helping me decide what I want to do with my career. It's a good thing I made the choice I did. So later on after this we went to Bahrain and I was supposed to go back to Hawaii for school. While we were there about 20 minutes and I went into the chow hall to get something to eat so I could relieve the guys that were on watch and everyone could get something to eat. And then comes our first class petty officer through and he says hey Dennis get back to the engine room we're getting ready to leave and I'm like what? So apparently we had pulled in and there was some big threat taken mind that this was in the end of June of 2001 and we had to leave the port immediately because there was something suspicious or something like that going on there. We'd left after an hour and I debated about what was going to happen now because I was supposed to be going back to school. So we went out to see for a couple weeks and then we finally came back and we met up with the guys that were going to replace those of us that were going to school and we had a long day sitting around Bahrain in the middle of the summer. It was about 115 degrees of doing nothing and walking around base. At this time you couldn't leave the base unless you were on official business so we had to wait around the base all day long. Whereas when I was there in 1999 to meet the boat the first time we stayed in a hotel and we could go out to the hotels and do whatever we wanted. So it was kind of strange to me that all of a sudden we couldn't leave the base and there was this threat the first time we were there and I didn't know what to think of all of this. So then we went back to Hawaii and I was in school one day and I came home laid out by the pool and I was watching TV and all of a sudden I saw this Ralph Nader video on TV. I went to the website that put the video out and it opened my eyes to some different views that I have never seen before of alternative media and world media. And this was probably the most significant event that changed my views because I suddenly had this other world of opportunities and news and different viewpoints to look at. This was in the summer of July of 2001. My eyes were being opened and I started reading some new books. One book in particular I remember was Lies My Teacher told me. He told me about different ways of interpreting what happened in history and how that Columbus wasn't such a great hero and all of this. And then we had the September 11th attack happen and all of the viewpoints that were being shoved at me from the people on the boat. And I was kind of disturbed that we couldn't do anything else. We couldn't call home even on that day to tell our parents we were okay. We didn't know what we were going to do but we're fine. In a dry world, in a barren world, water, people need water in the desert night, around the dying light, fit for sleepers, dream of water, and peaceful drives, rule their lives by water. And seething hoars, raise their swords, and kill for water. In a world of drought, water is for the whole. In a driven world, in a plastic world, oil, we drill for oil. All the megan, the me, choose their dream machines to line up for oil, we shoot up oil. And nation stakes, stake their fate on the price of oil, where they'll beat in songs, crime their guns, and kill for oil. In a rundown world, oil is for the whole. There's gotta be more than this, the dredging dance, the obscene kiss. There's gotta be more than this, the dredging dance, the obscene kiss. In a hurting world, in a heating world, love, we reach for love. In the restless heat of sweat-stained sheets, we stray for love, cry out for love. In a child's love, an open book, and every page is love. And push to shove, we kill for love. We cannot kill for love, we cannot kill for love. In a desert world, in a driven world, in a doubting world, love is for the whole. Love is for the whole. What was this changing viewpoint that you were experiencing? I think it was more of an opening of my eyes to everything that's out there, instead of just going about my life, going to work on the boat and then coming home and watching TV, doing nothing, and then going out to the bar at night. You know, it was something different, informing myself, I think, was the main thing that I didn't do before. I just did nothing, I guess, like a lot of people do. There were a lot of books that I read during this time that helped me learn about things and different viewpoints. I mentioned the lies my teacher told me, I also read a people's history of the United States, and even the book on Gandhi, because I didn't know what my viewpoints really were, and I needed to look around and try and figure out what they were based on what I could learn. How did the other people you're with react to this kind of reading you're doing? Well, there was this one time, I was reading a book called Taleban, and it's about the Afghanistan militants. When my roommate saw that I was reading the book called Taleban, he called me a al-Qaeda mother effer, and I was kind of disturbed that, you know, he would use that language to me, but I was also not very surprised, because I had learned that a lot of people aren't really open to new things and they just accept what they're told. They don't like us, that's why they attacked us, okay, let's go attack them. But I was trying to figure out what the whole story was, that the CIA had funded bin Laden when he was in Mujahideen fighting against the Soviets, and a lot of people don't know that, so it's kind of different. You're trying to inform yourself, but other people are judging you because you're reading controversial material, I guess. So you were doing all this reading, and you were not getting a positive response from your roommate and from the other people around you. Is it fair to say that you felt like a minority of one within that group? Within that group, I would say yes, I probably did feel like a minority, but it didn't really bother me that much, because I was trying to inform myself and figure out what was going on in the world. Are you used to being out there, are you used to standing out and going your own way? I mean, it seems to me like this would be a place where a lot of peer pressure would be pushing you toward the common viewpoint. I don't know if I've ever really followed peer pressure, but I'm not, you know, I don't draw attention to myself. I'm not one that enjoys being in the spotlight, I guess. It just, it was something that I needed to do to figure out what was going on in the world and in my life. And it was a big change of events that led to this, and I wasn't going to let my roommate pick it on me to stop what I was doing. But there were other people that supported what I was doing. When I was reading in the ship, when we were underway, in the child line, and our captain went by, he used to ask me what I was reading most of the time. And when I showed him lies, my teacher told me, he said, "Huh, I read that book too." And made me think that not everyone has the same viewpoints, and not everyone is judgmental about what you're reading. And if he's got to the position he is, and he's read this book, it can't be bad for me. All of this is kind of background that leads up to what your attitudes are your last two years in the military. Evidently, you were not tremendously pro-war at that point, and you were leaning towards having more thought. Those last two years were those really hard years for you. The last two years weren't really that hard for me. The main reason is because most of 2002, we were in the dry docks working 12 to 15 hour shifts, trying to get everything accomplished so we could get out on time. And so a lot of my time was taken up with work, but once the propaganda machine began in the late 2002, about the Iraq war, I kind of felt alienated because I had views that were opposing the war, and I didn't think we should be going. But I didn't know who I could talk to about this besides people online, and it didn't really seem comfortable doing that. When you say people online, who are you referring to? Well, I would talk to my brother sometimes using instant messenger, or I could go to chat rooms for progressive websites and talk about things, but I wasn't comfortable talking about it that much because I didn't know, you know, I didn't have a full set of views on everything, and I wasn't sure if I wanted to commit to certain views or not. So then we declared war, and that was a really hard day for me during the March 20th marches all around the world. I really wanted to go downtown and stand with people, but I wasn't sure what would happen to me if I was caught there or something like that. I wasn't sure I was ready to be punished for standing up for what I believe in, especially when I was getting ready to get out in a few months. [music] He's five foot two, and he's six feet four. He fights with missiles and with spears. He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen. He's been a soldier for a thousand years. He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jane, a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew, and he knows he shouldn't kill, and he knows he always will. Tell you for me, my friend and me, for you. And he's fighting for Canada, he's fighting for France, he's fighting for the USA, and he's fighting for the Russians and he's fighting for Japan, and he thinks we'll put an end to all his way. And he's fighting for democracy, he's fighting for the Reds, he says it's for the peace of all. He's the one who must decide who's to live and who's to die, and he never sees the writing on the wall. But without him how would Hitler have condemned him at La Bal? Without him Caesar would have stood alone. He's the one who gives his body as a weapon of the war, and without him all his killing can't go on. He's the universal soldier, and he really is to blame. His orders come from far away no more. They come from here and there, and you and me, and brothers can't you see? This is not the way we put the end to war. The war progressed, and then we had this great day mission accomplished. George Bush landed on an aircraft carrier. So then the war was apparently ended, and then I got out of the military, and then I came back to Wisconsin and started school here the next fall. Were you a Bush supporter along the way? During his first election I actually voted for George Bush, but I think a lot of that had to do with I didn't really know who to support, and being an outdoorsman and a hunter, the NRA said that George Bush was the candidate to go with, so I decided to go with George Bush, and a lot of things that he has done have not been very good for hunters and outdoorsmen like myself. He's been trying to get oil out of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. He's been destroying wetlands and places like that that were supposed to be saving for the future generations of this country, and not destroying our natural, beautiful landscape. But after my views started changing, I realized that I had made a mistake, and I probably shouldn't have voted for George Bush. I probably shouldn't have voted at all, but I felt the need to vote for some reason. What did you feel about when there were signs out there that said things like support the troops and President Bush? How did those kinds of messages hit you, especially since you were one of the people who were supposed to be supporting? Well, I was kind of disturbing to see a sign like that, because how can you support the troops? I mean, what does that really mean? Does that mean that you should cut VA benefits? You shouldn't give the troops adequate body armor, you shouldn't give them armored Humvees, you should make them pay more to get VA medical. I mean, it doesn't really work that you can support both of them the way things have been going. It just didn't seem to fit to have those two things on the same sign, and I didn't know what the people that were putting them up, what their true intentions were. You used to see all of these support the troops' yellow ribbons on all the cars when the war first started, but now they're disappearing and they're hard to see, unless they're right next to a W sticker on the back of some gas-guzzling SUV. So, who really supports the troops, I guess, would be the real question, and... What do you think we can do to support the troops in a way that you think is positive? Well, I think we can support them by telling our members of Congress that we need to bring them home and end the occupation of Iraq, because it was based on lies, and we're there wasting millions and millions of dollars and going further and further into debt. I heard this morning on NPR, the guy that has a national debt sign in Times Square, is going to run out of room within the next two years because he doesn't have enough digits there. This is a serious mistake. People need to realize this, that you're wasting your money, they're cutting college benefits, Pell grants and tuition loans for students, but yet we need to graduate more science people to keep up with India and China and their booming economies, and we're just throwing our money away. And we're not helping the Iraqis. Their water quality and their continuity of electricity are worse than they were pre-war. So, what are we doing over there? [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] I had a brother who was in the Air Force at the time that the Iranian revolutionaries took the hostages, and I think at least at this point he feels very strongly that we really needed to assert ourselves militarily, that it was a point of honor. Do you feel that we need to stay the course, or is there some loss of pride that we would suffer if we did pull out? Is it wrong to pull out of Iraq right now? I don't think it's wrong, but I think we need to realize all of the damage that has been inflicted from this war and from the bombing raids that happened weekly between the last war, and that their infrastructure is ruined, people are in poverty. There's a lot of problems in this country, and we need to help them out with financial assistance, we need to help farmers get back on their feet, we need to help people find jobs, we need to restore the electricity and restore the water, and not build huge military bases in the middle of Baghdad. We also need to help them restore their oil infrastructure, even though it wasn't bombed, it is very dilapidated and hasn't been fixed since before the first Gulf War. If they're ever going to make money, which is how we were told this war was going to be financed with Iraqi oil, we need to help them have a way to make the money and not continue to occupy their country and harass their citizens. Well, we certainly wandered around a fair amount. Let's come back to how I actually met you, which was just a couple weeks ago, and we're standing as witness against the third anniversary of Mission Not Accomplished. You said you don't really like to put yourself out there and get the limelight on yourself, but you were one of the people standing right out there with a sign. Yeah, I don't feel that that's necessary in the limelight. I'm not out there by myself saying something totally radical. I'm out there with a sign that says support our troops, bring them home or end the war now. I'm not out there with a sign that says we need to assassinate Bush or something crazy like that. I'm out there with other like-minded people that want peace, and they want a chance for the Iraqi people to govern themselves and not have another puppet head of state installed like we did with Saddam Hussein. When I'm out there with others, I feel that I'm not really the center as much as a group of people, and it's an event which helps you in your life. You know, you go out there and you stand with people that, you know, you get to talk to them, you get to know some new people, and you get encouragement from people driving by, they honk their horn, they wave at you. And then occasionally you get people that give you the finger, shake their head. But it's nice to get the encouragement from people, and you can't do that if you're sitting at home watching TV. I mean, there's a lot of people that are behind the scenes and don't feel that they need to come out and stand for peace or stand to end the war, but it's something that needs to be done. And if you can't stand for an hour a week or an hour a month, what can you do? Do you really need to watch TV or surf the internet for an hour? I was wondering, Todd, were you brought up to be a radical or a pacifist? Was that kind of your background coming up? Did you have hippy parents or something like that? Well, if I had hippy parents, I probably wouldn't have joined the military, so I guess that's a no. No, I guess my dad was a pipe-fitter in the Union, and my mom was a teacher, and we didn't really discuss politics very much at home, so I didn't really have any particular leanings or any of that. One particular thing, when I was young, my parents would have different religions, so it was kind of confusing growing up because one week we'd go to the Catholic Church, and the next week we'd go to the Methodist Church. Or sometimes we'd go to the same one a couple weeks in a row, but then I got to the time about where I needed to be confirmed, so then we started going to the Methodist Church all of the time. But once I was confirmed, I didn't really go to church, and after my brother was confirmed, they stopped going, too. So, I don't know that religion has really shaped my life either at all. One thing that did happen, when I first joined the military in the boot camp, I was assigned to be the Protestant lay leader, which meant I had to say a prayer every other night, alternating with the Catholic lay leader. And on Sundays, I would lead whoever was in our division that wanted to go to the Protestant service over to the church on base, instead of sitting in the barracks shining her shoes. Although I was chosen for this opportunity, I don't really feel that it defined me or helped me at all, figure out where I was spiritually. It just was something that I did, and I had a hard time figuring out what to say at the evening prayers, because I didn't really have a deep connection with God or whoever I was supposed to be talking to. Do you feel like you've got more of a center now? Not really. I kind of feel that it's something that I'm going to have to look into a lot to figure out where I want to be and where I am. And although my brother has found where he wants to be, will be converting to Judaism sometime in the near future, I don't know where I stand, and I'm going to have to wait until I get out of college and I have more time to research all of the ideas out there and figure out which one meets best with what I view. And then follow what they do, maybe, or make up what I do all by my own. What kind of criteria would you have for a spiritual home that would feel positive to you, would feel enhancing, would be supportive to you? I guess I would have to find one that shares my basic beliefs, shares what I believe now with Veterans for Peace. We work for peace in the ending of war. I wouldn't want to join a church that just blindly supports the President and his war because that's not who I am, so I couldn't really follow what they were trying to tell us if they already have this view and they're trying to force it on me. So I would have to find something that agrees with my views or has views that I'm undecided about and maybe they could educate me on both sides of an issue and help me to decide what really I should think about something. Are there any of the values from your childhood that you think you came up with that maybe were part of your Methodist training? I'm not sure if they're part of my Methodist training, but sometimes when we have peace vigils, there's people that have signs that say blessed are the peacemakers and I didn't know it, but I found out recently that that came from the Bible. And most of what's in the Bible is supposed to be about peace and your equal with your fellow man, so I guess some of what I have as my thoughts now actually probably do come from what I learned early in life. I just don't remember. You sure didn't come from Gandhi. I think you said you read about Gandhi and he was a pretty impressive peace advocate. Some of it may have come from what I read on him. Most of the book I read talked about all the different experiments that he went through in his life trying to figure out what he wanted to do. So it pretty much fit where I was going through my life. He tried being a vegetarian and tried all of these different things to figure out how he was going to be pure as part of his religion. Trying the new things and figuring out where you want to be was what I was doing, but I didn't really have a religious center around which I was trying these things to help me become a new person. As someone who has served in the military, Todd, I wanted to ask you what patriotism means to you. There's some phrases that link service to country and service to God, like serving God and King or serving God and country. How do you end up thinking of patriotism now and does that differ from what you thought of before you went in the military? I think everyone has their own definition of patriotism, but there's a lot of ways that you can show your patriots. I mean, standing for peace and getting the truth out there, that's a patriotic act if you ask me. And there's other ways that you can be a patriot. I mean, sure, serving your country is patriotic if you're doing something that's helping other people. Certainly, if you're in the Peace Corps, you're serving your country and you're also promoting an alternative view from the violence that we see every day and that is in the mainstream and promoted by the military. And there's other ways to work out things. You know, you can sit at the table and talk through issues instead of using force in every option. And that's one thing that didn't happen before this war. We didn't sit down at the table with Iraq's leaders and try and figure out what we could do to fix this. We just said, "Oh, the UN inspections, they're not working, obviously, so we're going to invade." There's always a time where you can sit down and take a break and try and figure out how you can resolve something without using the military method of doing it. I've been noticing a tremendous parallel of what's happening with Iran right now as compared to what happened with Iraq. They're being told, "You do this. No, we don't have time for discussion. You can't talk to me. You just do what I tell you to." I see a lot of parallels in what's happening there, too. And the strange thing is that we already have sanctions against Iran, but we're the leader in trying to get everyone else to sanction the country. We should not be the leaders of this. We should let other countries decide what's going on. And also, there's no evidence that he's trying to build nuclear missiles or nuclear bombs. He's trying to get nuclear power plant, and for some reason, he can't build one, but we need to build more of those here. It's interesting that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad recently sent a letter to George Bush, and he asked him about a lot of things, including the Iraq War, which he said was based on lies and is based on lies. But the only thing that George Bush replied with was he said there's nothing in there about nuclear weapons or what their plans are. Instead of opening the table to try and get a discussion going after this letter, which is the first letter that Iran has written to the U.S. since 1979, he just dismisses it as nothing and continues with his propaganda that they need to be stopped. They're going to build a nuclear bomb, and we can't allow that. When in reality, there's a lot of greater problems going on in the Middle East, like our occupation of Iraq, and while there are other countries in the Middle East that actually have nuclear weapons, and we're not concerned about it, Israel has nuclear weapons, but we don't seem to be bothered by that. But why can't another country in the Middle East develop nuclear power for getting electricity? And of course, over to the East, you've got Pakistan and India, they've been battling it out for a while with their nuclear weapons, having tests and everything, and we haven't really took a hardline stance with either of those countries. In fact, Pakistan seems to be our ally in fighting al Qaeda in between the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan, and why take a hardline stance against this one country who has a democratically elected leader. It just doesn't make sense. You're nearing the end of your time here in Eau Claire, and you should be moving down to Madison, I think, pretty soon. Do you intend to continue your association with Veterans for Peace? Yes, when I went down there in April during their spring break to look for apartments, I met with the local chapter president in Madison. They had a good discussion with him over lunch about what they do down there, things that we've done up here and things that we can possibly do up here that they have done. And basically trying to get ideas to help our new chapter here get affiliated with the national group. So I definitely will be involved with them, and the peace rallies that they have, and one of the big things they do down there is during the farmer's market all summer long, they have a table, informational table, where they put out literature to provide alternatives for the military to children. On a similar note, up here we've been working on getting the opt out forms in local schools, which is authorized by the No Child Left Behind Act. The premise is that the schools will collect information on children, and unless the parents, or if the child is over 18, opt out, this information can be sent to recruiters upon request. We've had a positive response in a number of schools around the area and look forward to talking to more schools in the area about implementing this program. Thanks for taking the time to be with me. Thanks for standing on the front lines. I really appreciate your taking the effort to be out there as a witness as a recent veteran. Thanks for having me on the show, Mark. It was nice to talk to you today and get to know more about you and learn about what I've done. Thanks, Todd. [applause] The cool breeze blowing through the smoke and the heat, hear the gentle voices, and the marching feet, singing call back the fire, draw the missiles down, and we'll call this earth our home, pieces, pieces. The bread we break, love is, love is, the river all in life is a chance we take when we make this earth our home, gonna make this earth our home. Once you've got the melody down, feel free to try some harmony, and don't be afraid of harmony. Harmony is any note that your neighbor isn't singing. We have known the album, the power and pain we've seen, people fall beneath the killing rain. If the mind still reasons and the soul remains, it shall never be again. Pieces, the bread we break, love is, the river all in life is a chance we take when we make this earth our home, gonna make this earth our home. Peace grows from a tiny seed as the acorn grows into the tallest tree. Many years ago I heard a soldier say, when people want peace, better get out of the way. Pieces, the bread we break, love is, the river all in life is a chance we take when we make this earth our home, gonna make this earth our home. You've been listening to an interview with Todd Dennis of the Chippewa Valley Veterans for Peace group. You can hear this program again via my website, which is northernspiritradio.org. You can listen to this program again, other programs, and see links and information about the programs and the music featured on our programs. Music featured in this program has included, if Jimmy didn't have to go by Charlie King and Karen Brandau, find the cost of freedom by Crosby Stills National Young, Warlords by Fred Small, Universal Soldier by Donovan, bring the boys home by free to pain, and pieces, also by Fred Small. The theme music for Spirit in Action is "I Have No Hands but Yours" by Carol Johnson. Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeet@usa.net. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. I have no higher call for you than this. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy selflessness. Music