Spirit in Action
Tom Chisholm of Veterans for Peace
Tom Chisholm served in the military on and off over 45 years, as a medic and a doctor. For most of that time he found himself opposed to all of the wars and military invasions the USA was part of. He's been a long-time member of Veterans for Peace and is a member of the Catholic peace group, Pax Christi, as well.
Tom has also valued his service on a reservation in South Dakota, and his volunteer time as a doctor in Nicaragua.
- Broadcast on:
- 07 Sep 2008
- Audio Format:
- other
I have no hands but yours to tempt my sheep. No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep. I have no arms but yours with which to hold. The ones grown weary from the struggle and weak from growing old. I have no voice but yours with which to see. To let my children know that I am up and up is everything. I have no way to feed the hungry souls. No clothes to give and make you the ragged and the morn. So be my heart, my hand, my tongue, through you I will be done. The enders have I none to help and die, the tangled knots and twisted chains, the strangled fearful minds. Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpsmeet. Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Above all, I'll seek out light, love and helping hands, being shared between our many neighbors on this planet, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. I have no way to open people's eyes, except that you will show them how to trust the inner mind. Today on Spirit in Action, I am joined by Tom Chisholm. Tom has served in the military on and off over 45 years as a medic and as a doctor. For most of that time he found himself opposed to all of the wars and military invasions that the USA was part of. He's been a longtime member of Veterans for Peace and is a member of the Catholic Peace Group, Parks Christi, as well. Tom has also valued his service on a reservation in South Dakota and his volunteer time as a doctor in Nicaragua. Tom, welcome to Spirit in Action. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. I definitely enjoyed the time this past Saturday with you out at the corner of Bracket and 53. It certainly was good energy and it really seemed like the people who were going by were responding positively to our message. It's been my experience standing at a great corner in Chippewa Falls for the past six or seven months that the positive response to our presence there outweighs the negatives by at least 400 to three. It's that big a difference indicating that there is a great interest in ending this war but there probably is associated fear of expressing themselves so that our presence there helps those people and reinforces their feelings and may influence their decisions during the forthcoming elections. When you say 400 to three, how did you measure that? Well we counted as fast as we could, particularly on Christmas Eve we were there with several of us counting. It's easy to count the negatives because there's so few of them. What we can't account for directly is the indifference. There aren't people that pass by without looking or almost afraid to look. But despite those which may represent 20%, the responders definitely give you a thumbs up or toot their horn and so it's easy to count them. And since there's so few negatives, it's even easier to count them. And this is persistent every week over the past, winter and spring. Who is the group of you who have been standing out there in Chippewa Falls and what kind of signs, what kind of message are you giving to people that people are reacting to? Well we bring our American flag, then we have a large banner that we hold called Veterans for Peace. The rest of the signs say peacemakers, peace on earth, bring the troops home, we support the troops and bring the troops home. And there are other individuals that appear from time to time bring in their own signs. But they all express peace. Tom I think you're an anomaly in the world of military service. I think you served in military starting back in about 1948 and you've been often on again in military until your retirement maybe ten years ago. And I think almost all that time you've been essentially anti-war. That's correct. My service started in 1948 and I was part of the Korean War, small part, but it took care of casualties. And then the next war, just a few years after that, was Vietnam. And I knew almost intuitively that that was a mistake. And even though I served there briefly, I was always opposed to it historically. I understood that as apparently no one else did that this had been a foreign French colony and the Vietnamese simply wanted to be free and had nothing to do with really the communist problem, but that's the way it was presented to us. And my speeches at that time stressed the historical aspects of the Vietnamese people related to both the Chinese and the French and that we could never win that war. And if we had won the war, we would still be there trying to pacify the people. So I took an active role in the war taking care of casualties, but when I came back home, I persisted in my opposition to the war, vocally writing as much as I possibly could. So your first two wars were the Korean War and then Vietnam War. Have you been active during other wars? Well, let's see. The onset of Iraq when it occurred when I was on a special assignment in Bolivia and the Andes with a medical unit supporting an engineer group. That part of the Andes is called the alto plano. It's a very high, dry and rather desolate place. And when I returned from there, I had an opportunity to go to Iraq. But it was my prerogative either to stay or assign one of my other senior surgeons and commanding officers and various other people elected to send another surgeon so that I could continue to supervise the residence that I was training back at the hospital at Fort Belvoir in Virginia. You were active I think during our war with Granada, Panama, were you around at that time? And you've also been active duty when a number of the disasters or terrorist strikes took place. While I was on active duty during the Panama invasion and during the Granada invasion, both of which I opposed, even though I was on active duty, I didn't necessarily oppose them vehemently, but people knew that I was opposed to those incursions, needless incursions. Then service in Germany brought me into close contact with numerous terrorist activities between 1983 and 1988. The Marine barracks were destroyed by terrorist attack on October 23rd, 1983. And the approximately 50 casualties that survived that disaster were flown to Germany where I triaged them along with some of my associates and treated them all for their numerous and variety of wounds. All of these casualties survived, as I recall. That was the first encounter with the real terrorism while serving in Germany over five years. But then there was the TWA disaster, the Achilles LeRue disaster, both in 1985. There was a bombing of the Berlin disco. Also, those casualties all came to the hospital for us to manage, before sending on back to the United States. While I was there in 1988, during the last year of the Russian-Afghan War, I was assigned to care for several hundred casualties as a result of an ammo explosion in Pakistan-Afghan border area. This ammo dump was American munitions that we were supplying to troops that were fighting the Russians that ultimately became the Taliban. So we were busily engaged in a foreign culture, most of which was completely unknown to us, historically and culturally and anthropologically. And that was a very eye-opening adventure, was professionally satisfactory. But while we were there, we had to remain in the American embassy compound because there were threats to our lives, despite the fact that we were doing humanitarian activities and caring for these casualties. A few months later, after returning back to Germany and ultimately the United States, our military attache, General Wassen, was in an airplane with the premier of Pakistan. And that plane disappeared in the explosion in the air of August of 1988. Just something that indicates our tenuous relationships with these South Asian and Middle Eastern countries, about which none of us in America know enough about. There are very few people, for instance, that care about or know about that Pakistan has a nuclear weapon, India has a nuclear weapon, the British invaded Afghanistan three times and never changed the thing. Those historical facts were unknown to me at the time. And unfortunately, there's still unknown to most of the people in the United States even now. I guess my point would be that you've been involved in most of the wars of the last 40, 50 years, you've been involved as a medical person, as a doctor specifically, there much of it. You've chosen to be associated with the military and wars that you didn't support. Is this a difficult thing for you to do to stay there to be, I guess, in a support position for an institution which is working wrong-headedly? No, it's not difficult for me to support. It's my job as a doctor to relieve pain, even if I disagree with the politics of the United States. I like the aspect of socialized medicine that is an example set by the military in general. And it's really a template for what we should have in the United States universal healthcare. So although I found that the political and diplomatic aspects of our incursions in foreign countries repugnant, in some sense I suppose I could be considered a phoneme, but someone has to take care of the casualties. And I was good at it. The blood and the guts and the injuries and the pains and the screams seem to have bothered me. My professional training was second to none, and had been based on, of course, a large experience by my associates and teachers from previous unhappy conflicts. With your guns and drums and drums and guns and roo, with your guns and drums and drums and guns and roo, with your guns and drums and drums and guns, the enemy nearly slew you. My darling dear, you look so queer, Johnny, I hardly knew you. Where are your legs that used to run, Heroo, Heroo, Where are your legs that used to run, Heroo, Heroo, Where are your legs that used to run before you left to carry your gun? I'd fear your dents and days are done, Johnny, I hardly knew you. Where are your eyes that were so mild, Heroo, Heroo, Heroo, Where are your eyes that were so mild, When my heart you did beguile, And why did you run from me in the child? Johnny, I hardly knew you. You haven't an arm, you haven't a leg, Heroo, Heroo, You haven't an arm, you haven't a leg, Heroo, Heroo, Heroo, You haven't an arm, you haven't a leg, You're an eyeless bone, this chicken, this egg, And you'll have to be put with a bow to beg, Johnny, I hardly knew you. They're rolling out the guns again, Heroo, Heroo, Heroo, Heroo, They're rolling out the guns again, Heroo, Heroo, Heroo, They're rolling out the guns again, But they won't take back our sons again, No, they'll never take back our sons again, Johnny, I'm squaring to you. What did you think about the environment of the military? I probably have a prejudice that says that there's too many people marching to the same drummer and that an independent thinker, which is what it appears to me you are, might not like the culture very much. The military in general, you know, in particular today is comprised of people who need a job and need education, and almost all the young men and women who enter the service today either through ROTC or directly from high school, they want that bonus and they want to have a higher education, unfortunately they might be deprived of those opportunities without paying the price, which in most cases means they're going to serve in the service for six years. Even when I joined the Army, my intention, the way back in 1948, was to save money so that I could pay for my education. The Korean War came along and following it was an addition to the GI Bill of Rights, and that provided me an income for four years of school. The GI Bill of Rights was similar to, but not anything near as generous as the Bill of Rights provided the veterans the Second World War. Nevertheless, because of those educational opportunities provided burgeoning middle class in America that was never there before and allowed me to finish medical school. So that even now, most of the people serving as patriotic as they may appear, their real intention is the benefits that will be derived in a few years following their completion of their assignments or even those who elect to stay in the Army or the military long enough to collect their pension. They need that opportunity, that economic ground that would never be provided for them otherwise. The competition is too great. Not everybody that enters the military, I'm sure most people know, have IQs above 120. Some do, but for the most of us around I have 100 or 110. So I never had any difficulty, even though I was opposed to the generals of the wars. I have great respect for the most people that I've met in the services. You've said that you were opposed to many of the wars. Why do you oppose these wars? Is just practical aspects or are there deep moral beliefs that are involved in this? Or are you just a contrary type person? I don't think I'm a contrary type person. I was raised with a certain fundamental Christian Catholic doctrine, which I think has to be applied to the war, to the world, and peace was a fundamental message of Jesus. He didn't make any rules, he just set an example. He said that we had to be kind to one another and believe in God. Now, there are people who aren't Christians, particularly in this age, we have the Islam and people who aren't Christians, but believe in the God, and as far as we all know there's only one. I'm sure most of us have certain doubts many times. But based on those fundamental principles that we all are indoctrinated with, we have to apply that message in every way possible, individually and collectively, at home and abroad. But we have to understand that there are people who don't agree with the essentials of American democracy based on what we say as Christianity. This is a diverse world, and we have to respect these people. And charity is part of the Christian philosophy. So we have to be patient, understanding, and we have to be educated, not only in Christianity, but everything else, so that we can apply those principles. And that's what I've tried to do. And medicine is probably easier than any other profession because our job as physicians and nurses and all the other people in the medical field is to relieve pain. If you find an enemy combatant on the battlefield and bring them in, you treat them the same as your own GIs. You have to take this charity in love and apply it to everyone if we are going to survive. We have to oppose war, particularly since almost every war is based on greed and conquest, rather than on simply defense of our way of life. A preemptive war is certainly not an example of a necessary war. Korea differs greatly from Vietnam because we were attacked, and it differs certainly from the current war in Iraq, which was completely planned years before the mission. It was provoked by September 11 of 2001, and that unfortunate incident raised the patriotic fervor in America to a degree unknown since perhaps the Second World War, and garnered support for the administration, even though the object of the war was not clearly defined, the consequences which we are suffering today were unknown, simply thought it would be a very brief war. There would be very few Americans killed. The Iraqis would embrace us as wonderful people, and we would add perhaps the 52nd state in the United States, even though it was a fundamentally Islamic nation. You've certainly mentioned a lot of wars that you have some disagreement with. You observed the effects of terrorism firsthand, particularly when you were serving in Germany. Did that make you more sympathetic to a war on terror? Not a bit. It makes me even more opposed to the war on terror. No, I persist in being opposed to all wars, even though they seem to be provoked by the terrorist attacks. When one has to ask why are there a terrorist attack? When did the current war start? Did it start on September 11th? Or did it start during the Zionist invasion by the Israelis during 1948 and the establishment of the nation of Israel, provoking the persistent animosity that's ever since? Or was it our attitude in Iran, disposing one chief of state in 1953 for our own purposes? Was it provoked by the shaw of Iran and that the terrorist problems that came as a result of the Islamic fundamentalists in Khomeini in 1979 when the hostage were ill? During those years, other things were occurring. As mentioned, we had the Islamic reaction to our interest in the Middle East, demonstrated by the TWA incident in 1985, as well as the Killeluru shipping incident that same summer. Then we decided that a terrorist attack had been generated by Qaddafi from Libya, and so we responded by bombing him and attempting to kill him, and he responded by blowing up the Pan Am flight in December 1988, and then, of course, the unfortunate magnitude of the terrorist attack in New York and September 11th would necessarily provoke great animosity in America towards anything in Islam or the Middle East or any of the countries. But no one has really asked enough questions. Why was bin Laden so opposed to us? Was it simply the persistent presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia and in Kuwait following Iraq 1 of 1990 and 91? Or was it our constant support for the Israeli state? If the latter is the problem, then we are never going to be able to end our differences with the Islamic fundamentalists since they have been opposed to the Israeli state for time immemorial and we are their greatest defenders. Our problem then is to neutralize the terrorism somehow or another, and it can't be with persistent response through warfare. It has to be through diplomatic achievements and compromise no matter how humiliating that may seem to most patriotic Americans. I think that Jimmy Carter really took it on the chin when he tried what I think was a very sensible approach to trying to deal with the Iranian revolutionaries, the people who took the hostages. American people are just not willing to be patient with the smart solution. In that case, without causing any deaths, we were able to get the hostages free and we didn't have to sacrifice 2,300 soldiers and we didn't have to kill tens of thousands of Iranians. A deal was worked out and they were brought home and America didn't like that and they voted against him. Do you have some hope that Americans are going to see it differently? Unfortunately, I don't think that the majority of Americans are going to think like Jimmy Carter. But I'm convinced, however, that they want to leave the current Iraq dilemma as soon as possible. I can hardly agree that we can persist over their economically or militarily indefinitely. We should use the British Empire as an example. The British Empire at the end of the First World War set up all these nations and because of the Second World War and their efforts to continue their empire led to their decline. We simply have replaced the British and continue the arrogance that they showed because we think that we are supremely powerful with our military. But that doesn't make us infallible, more omniscient or more omnipotent than the British. The arrogance of power that we're currently manifesting confuses power with wisdom, patriotism with religion, missiles for restraint, all the hubris of empire known historically from time immemorial. What does it profit a country to gain the whole world and suffer the loss of its soul? How much of your beliefs about this are religiously centered? Obviously, there's a lot of Catholics out there who think very much otherwise than what you do. Some of the biggest supporters of war have been Catholics and you mentioned earlier when we were talking Cardinal Spellman and his persistence support for the war in Vietnam, for instance. Well, I see Cardinal Spellman and Catholic similar to him as anachronisms. They're the very antithesis of the message of Jesus. They don't seem to understand that. They base their support for the war mostly on arrogance. We have sent missionaries around the world since St. Paul, really, in an effort to invert people to Christianity and feel that what we believe is correct. Most of the people of the world in Asia, particularly in China or Japan or Africa, knew nothing about the Bible. The American Indians that lived in northern South America knew nothing about Christianity until they were invaded by Christians. When we were told that we're right and they're wrong, I have to remind people that with the onset of Mohammed, they converted a whole part of Asia to Islam long before America was even discovered, or for instance, the Jesuit missionaries were sent either to North America or to China or to India. And those basic beliefs are founded as deeply, and those societies as Christianity is in our own. The Catholics, of course, believe a lot like other fundamental Christians that if we could just change them into good Christians, all our problems would be solved. But they lack a charitable attitude towards the people of the rest of the world who have never been indoctrinated in the fundamentals of Christianity. Yet we think with pride, nonetheless, that we are obligated because of one phrase in the body, "Go teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, the Holy Ghost." That was the commission of Christ himself to baptize. Now, I don't know if he meant that we had to control the entire world, but I doubt that he would prefer that there were peace rather than persistent war in the attempt to convert the rest of the world to Christianity. I'm absolutely certain he didn't think that we had to bring aircraft and guns and napalm and shells and grenades into the parts of the world that were not yet Christian. In fact, he was opposed to greed and accumulating capital if one would take the example of a temple when he chased the money changers' own. But we have a lot of money changers, Catholic, non-Catholic, that are active in government and politics, and see the world more with a dollar sign than they do with the cross. Do you get support for your views or do you get a decent hearing and acceptance within your Catholic friends and within the Catholic community that you're part of? Or did they come up to you and say, "Tom, I just wish you'd shut up?" Well, no one told me that I wish I'd shut up, but I certainly don't see any of it joining me in our peace visuals. In fact, besides my wife and my sister and brother, I can't think of another Catholic that's joined us on a simple little Saturday visual. So you do get strength from maybe your Christian roots, the teachings that you had, but you don't see it being lived out by the religious communities that you're connected with. I assume you're active in a Catholic church. Rarely here, the word "peace" mentions when I go to Mass. Now there are parts of the Mass where the word "peace" is used, but there is no additional expression of peace. During the prayers of the faithful, we pray for our government and the leaders of the world that they will come to a resolution of their problems. The troops are mentioned for their safety. No one has expressed the desire to bring them home as the best peaceful resolution. And there is no active peace movement in at least the churches I attend. I am also part of the Fox Christie, which is an international Catholic organization that came very active in the United States, beginning in 1960, and is active now in part of the peace movement. Those Catholics are always in the forefront of the protests, either locally or in Washington, and particularly at Fort Benning, Georgia, trying to end the school of the Americas. They're all Fox Christie people, and I'm one of them. But the organization seems to be unknown, at least in Chippewa Falls. What led to this major change of your views? You started out as just a small-town person from Chippewa Falls. And somehow you became a person who's deeply delved into history and has lived around the world and has major concern for other people in the world. What led you to get out of the box? Well, when I finished high school, I knew that I knew very little about anything except perhaps physics and chemistry. And I had a desire to see the world. I wanted this wander list that was part of me to see something more than the confines of Chippewa County. I suppose my longest trip by the time I was 17 was the visit to St. Paul to watch my older brother play football in the autumn of 1941, just before the Second World War started. And then, of course, the news from all around the world generated by the Second World War increased my interest in what was going on in these other countries. What they were like, what languages they spoke and why there was worth in general. So I was assigned to Japan in 1949 and probably to learn some Japanese. The war had been over by the time I arrived in Japan, approximately four years. Tokyo was being rebuilt from our bombing. I tried to learn some Japanese. I found everybody that I met in Japan to be friendly towards us despite the devastation of the war that they had brought on themselves really, but then we had added to them. And then I served in addition later on in my career in the service those early years on the ship with a hundred Japanese crewmen for whom I was responsible for their medical care. And it became very friendly with them. And we talked about, for instance, I can remember talking about Pearl Harbor 10 years after it occurred and visiting with them throughout those 10 months on the ship. There were two Japanese interpreters for us who were American nieces. Now these people had been interned in America even though they were American citizens during that part of the war because of the fear of the Japanese on the West Coast which is one of the greatest mistakes we've ever made. These two very intelligent Japanese Americans were so offended by that that they left America and went back to Japan and became citizens of Japan and were working for us. And one of them's name was Paul and the other was Tom and I remembered them over the years. But they were very influential on that trip along with the captain and the ship and the chief engineer who were about 15 or 20 years older than I was. So together with that, trying to learn Japanese with them and reading books, it was more imperative from that time on throughout the rest of my life that I had to learn more about foreign countries, their governments, the history of the United States as well as the history of the rest of the world. And although I was forced into a narrow field of science, I never lost my interest in trying to keep up with the news in general. And on that ship I had the opportunity because there were a lot of downtime of reading novels and history and political science which was part of our small library. With that kind of a liberal education, one becomes broadened, there's just no possible way you can confine yourself to one particular religion or one particular political philosophy. One has to be open to all people and to all their backgrounds. And so I've always developed a great interest from that time on. But particularly I have to learn more how to deal with the rest of the world from a cultural standpoint. It's an absolute necessity not just for myself but for everybody else. I've experienced people who've accused me of being un-American or anti-American because I'm also concerned about the people who are the casualties of the wars in other countries. I think as a doctor, you've actually been caring for people from the other country as much as for our troops, haven't you? Absolutely. Yes. You've intrigued everybody. You've never asked them their name or what they believe. If they're having pain and they're bleeding or if they're having babies or if they haven't tuberculosis or if they have leprosy, whatever it is, no matter who they are or what they believe, you don't have to question their background or the religion or the political philosophy. Most of the people actually are poor and uneducated compared to here in the United States. So not only do we take care of them but you fall in love with them. Does that mean like when you were in Vietnam that you were actually caring for people who were Viet Cong perhaps, people from the North who are enemies or that maybe you were caring for Islamic fundamentalists? Maybe Osama bin Laden was one of the people you nurse back to health? Very likely. For instance, in Vietnam, I rode out into the rice paddies one day in the helicopter and stayed overnight in a little camp that was surrounded with American artillery and we watched the movie. On one side of the movie screen were those inside the compound but outside the little defensive perimeter were the whole host of people out in the paddies watching the movie from the other side. They, I presume, were the Viet Cong. Those inside the compound were the Arvin. They were supposed to be on our side and nothing happened during that night. They were all enjoying the movie. On the way back I was flying, I think, in a little Piper Cub in the pilot decided that he was going to do some warfare and on that Piper Cub, there were a few rockets. So he decided that I think perhaps he was trying to impress me but he dove the plane down a little bit and shot a rocket into the jungle someplace. I thought to myself, boy, what a target we were. Fortunately, I returned but it could have killed us like nothing either that night or shooting back at us in this little Piper Cub completely, you know, just made a candidate. But more than that, I remember listening to the B-52's bomb in the Delta. You could hear the thumb, thumb, thumb, thumb, thumb out in the distance, bombing indiscriminately, killing who knows what, cattle, oxen and people. And sure enough, they would gradually drift in the casualties one way or another and we'd be taking care of them, fifteen, twenty-five, sometimes a hundred people at a time. There was no way of knowing who they supported, whether there was the American support of Vietnamese government or Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Cong. But they were taken care of just as carefully and just as intensively as they were my own flesh and blood. People from all over the world are essentially the same, they're essentially the same, they may have a little different color, but when you cut them over to try to operate on, they all look the same on the inside, they bleed just the same, they have just as much pain, their brains are the same, their arteries are the same. And Tom, in addition to your time serving in the military, you've actually done service elsewhere. For instance, I think you mentioned to me that you spent some time down in Central America periodically, and I think your most recent job before retiring was on Indian reservation. What takes you to these areas, is it because of the economic benefit of working in those places? Well, I had the opportunity to work on a small Indian reservation, the Santi Sioux Reservation in Plan without Dakota, which is just across the Minnesota border. And I think that was one of the best jobs I've ever had. I commuted from Hastings every weekend, and really I'd still be there today, except that several of the winters were so severe that I almost died driving back and forth. I enjoyed immensely taking care of those American Indians, and during that time, of course, I concentrated on reading as much as I possibly could about Indian history, and the devastation that had been wrought on them by our American invasion essentially as the white men moved west. And they had terrible problems with alcohol, they were all chronic smokers, and their health reflected the disorder, there was fetal alcohol syndrome because of drinking during pregnancy. But there were wounds, and there was hypertension, and diabetes is rampant through the Indian reservation and the obesity problem. But my patients were always generally happy with the care I provided with them, and were unhappy when I laughed, so was I. There was an Indian high school president in Fandro, and I had the opportunity to take care of many of the students as well. They had just poorly to school even now, but I remember one young man, particularly who finished high school and had signed a contract with the Marines for six years and was going to become a mechanic. And I did my best to change his view on that, but he had very few alternatives, none of them do in general. So as far as I know, he's successfully finished everything in the Marine Corps, he may still be in. That was part of my life that I feel very, very good about. There were Methodists, and there were Episcopanians, and there were Catholic Indians, but they had their own culture. I took part in the Swatch Lodge, I took part in the AA meetings. I did my best to help them, both in the clinic and in the small hospital that we had there in Fandro. And so I was exercising all of the things that a widely experienced older physician was capable of. Well, what is it that took you there? Why did you go there? Was it because it's a really good paying job? The fact is it was a good paying job. I was paid $50 an hour, and the money came not from the Indian Health Service at all, though they were part of it, but from funds generated from their casino as far as I know. That check was signed locally, and it wasn't a government check. And the tribal chairman and the young administrative of the clinic gave me anything I want. If I wanted a piece of equipment such as a Kalana scope, they bought it. If I needed something special for the laboratory that they bought it, it was a wonderful time, and I'd recommend working on Indian reservation for anybody in medicine. Again, I'm going to try and get you to include the wide range of motives. You did you paid well. You really enjoyed the work. Is it mainly because you really prefer socialized medicine in that you choose to work in settings like that as opposed to working with the Luther Middleford Hospital here? Well, I don't think that I was fit in the Luther metaphor. When I came back from the Army, I couldn't find a job. I don't know if it was age discrimination or not, and that was one of the reasons I went into the Indian reservation. It really is much more satisfying to know that you're going to get an adequate salary, that you could see all the patients you wanted. You didn't have to fit them into a certain schedule. You could work at night most of the time I didn't have to, and I didn't have to code anything at the time. There was no quota of a number of patients that I have to see, which I understand is necessary in the clinics today. When the patient weren't charged anything, and knowing that they weren't charged, and I was making a salary far more than they did, I assume, then I also was able to socialize with them and invite them to the local pizzeria and have a party with the clinic or whoever else. So I became very friendly with them. So the social aspects of it was just as important as the medical aspects, and I think I have always felt more comfortable in the social situation. I think a medicine should be provided for everybody universally, and the example set by the military, the Indian Health Service, and the Veterans Hospital is an example that should be extended for all of us. Tom, you also told me at one point that you spent some time down in Central America. Is this volunteer time, or are you getting paid $50 an hour for going down there, too? No, I've gone with the group to Nicaragua to a city called Halapa in North Central Nicaragua, and the group is called Interface Service to Latin America, and was begun perhaps 10 or 15 years ago by a Methodist group from Minneapolis and Rochester. I've gone every winter for at least three or four weeks, and I've enjoyed it immensely. Halapa was the center of the Quran Confra war, not to mention the Sandinese and uprising, and Daniel Ortega has always welcomed there, and I've seen him a couple of times coming through during my months there, during the wintertime. But the hospital needs a lot of equipment, and we brought that down, and I brought a lot of medicine with me, and the group also provided provisions for not only for students, but the schools themselves, the elementary and secondary schools, so they were doing a lot of genuine, youthful work. I really look forward to going with them. I didn't go this past year because I was working on setting up a health clinic in Chippewa Falls for the uninsured, and it took a lot of time. There is an expense going, as all missionaries know, and there are all kinds of groups that are providing care one way or another in Central America and other parts of the third world, as most people know. But this particular group was a very compatible group of nurses and doctors and teachers and lab techs and missionaries, and our leader was a Methodist minister. And of course, the satisfaction, once again, of providing care for very grateful people, it's just remarkable. I rarely occurred in Chippewaian practice, which I was exposed to in my life as well. Of course, most people like it because there are few restrictions. Once we arrive in the country and we set up liaison with the Minister of Health and we establish friendly diplomatic relations with the physicians in this particular hospital, we're not harassed by all the regulations or worry about being sued by somebody that is so prevalent here in current American medical practice. With all of your medical pursuits, I'm assuming you're still working on that clinic up in Chippewa Falls and so on. How much time do you have to give to pursuits of veterans for peace? Well I was busy with veterans for peace in St. Paul and was the secretary for three or four years, taking part in their activities over there which were very frequent. We had a handmade siege strip canoe which we offered at various venues around the cities and folk fairs and so on, raffled it off and we gave it to the winner once every year. So we were able to speak to people at these various locations and oftentimes we would get into discussions with people who say, "What's veterans for peace? What do you do?" And often they'd say, "I've never heard of veterans for peace and we'd respond, "Well, there's plenty of veterans that know about war and we've decided that peace is the better alternative and we'd have some useful discussions. Most of the time we'd listen to those that opposed us because they would become rather vehemently angry sometime and they would ask peculiar questions and want to ask me, "What would we do if China bombed us?" And that sort of took me back because at the time of this particular person asked me the question, "China had shot down on navy planes some years ago and took care of the crew and returned the plane to us." But then I asked him to take a look at the labels and some of his clothes and I reminded him that the American Chinese economy was expanding at such a rapid rate that it would be a great mistake for the Chinese to engage us in any warfare. So get an opportunity to review some of the situations with people that do ask us questions and most of the time the results are positive. Do you have any particular activities planned coming up? We just celebrated this past weekend, the third anniversary of our mission not accomplished in Iraq. What kind of things are veterans for peace doing in the near future? Well veterans for peace will persist in their presence and hope to recruit more and more of the Iraqi war veterans into our group so that they will become peace promoters. But we appear in as many peace rallies as possible. We have a national convention which will be in Seattle this year and I have a son-in-law particularly who is almost obsessed with finding a way to impeach President Bush. We have in the past before this current war in Iraq in the interval between Iraq one and two veterans over there with mechanical skills and return basic infrastructure particularly water supply. It's the various areas in Iraq. And if we have the opportunity we're going to do that again, we'll persist in that aspect and we'll be active in supporting candidates most of whom will be either green or Democrats who wish to end this war and remove the troops. We know fully well that there is chaos in Iraq whether we leave now or in the future. [Music] All I march to the battle of new Orleans at the end of the early British war. The young lands started growing, the young blood started flowing but I ain't marching anymore. Or I'd give a share of engines and a thousand different fights I was there at the little big farm. I've heard many men lying, I saw many more dying tonight and I ain't marching anymore. It's always the old, you lead us to the war. It's always the young to fall. Now look at all the weak ones with the saber and the gun. Tell me is it worth it all? Or I stole California from the Mexican land, bought in the bloody civil war. Yes, I even killed my brothers, so many others but I ain't marching anymore. I marched to the battles of the German trench and a war that was bound to end all wars. I must have killed a million men. Now they want me back again but I ain't marching anymore. It's always the old, you lead us to the war. It's always the young to fall. Now look at all the weak ones with the saber and the gun. Tell me is it worth it all? Or I flew the final mission in the Japanese skies, set off the mighty mushroom roar. But I saw the cities burning, knew that I was learning that I ain't marching anymore. Now the labor leaders screaming when they close a missile plant. United fruit screams at the Cuban shore. Call it peace or call it treason. Call it love or call it reason. But I ain't marching anymore. I ain't marching anymore. [applause] Tom, I think our time is just about out. I want to thank you for taking time being down here and doing a lot of good work in the world and keep it up. It was inspirational to hear you speak, last veteran's day. Someone who has had a ringside seat to so many of these wars. Someone who can speak firsthand of both the destruction and the complete uselessness of our military actions. It's really powerful to hear a firsthand witness like yourself. And thank you for being out there and sharing your experience. Let me end by reading a poem called "His Cross" by Marguerite Wilkinson. He burned no fiery cross to frighten minute night. He bore his burning pain and sharpest noonday light. He wore no hiding mask below his crown of thorns. He healed the flesh of men whose flesh by men was torn. He offered love to all and took with soul and bowed during abuse and blows the spittle of the crowd. How strange it is that men should lift his banner high when they go out to kill as he went out to die. And in conclusion, I have this definition of patriotism by Adley Stevenson. From a speech he gave to the American Legion Convention when he was running for President in October 1952. This is an extract of that speech. We talk a great deal about patriotism. What do we mean by patriotism in the context of our times? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility which will enable America to remain master of our power. To walk with it in serenity and wisdom with self-respect and the respect of all mankind. A patriotism that is not short frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime. The dedication of a lifetime. These are not easy words to utter. But this is a mighty assignment. It is often easier to fight for principles than to live up to them. Amen. Thanks again for taking the time here today, Tom. It's been a pleasure and I hope it's been of some benefit. Ted was raised in Ohio where brave men regularly grow. He wasn't surprised to get a letter and calling him to the wall. He was most polite and he wanted to do right, so he wrote right back and said, "I've learned from my people that I must not fight, but I'd like to work instead." I'm not afraid to go, folks. I'm not afraid to die. I've just got something else in mind that I would like to try. Give me a shovel instead of a gun. I'll say so long for now. And if I die, I'll die, I'll make something instead of tearing something down. He said goodbye to those he loved, wiped his mother's tears. Don't fret, folks. I know what I'm doing. I'll be back in a couple of years. He picked a piece I can, he didn't look back. He bravely left for the war. Took a Bible and a shovel and a lot of hope. He knew what he was going for. I'm not afraid to go, mother. I'm not afraid to die. I just don't want to be the one to make another son's mother cry. Give me a shovel instead of a gun. I'll say so long for now. And if I die, I'll die, I'll make something instead of tearing something down. He worked among the people of that far off Asian land. Many who would be the enemy became the friend of the brave young man. He helped in the crops and he worked in the shops and talked whenever he could. Of how he dreamed of a peaceful world. And life would be sweet and good. I'm not afraid to be here for it. I'm not afraid to die. I just can't shake this feeling inside. We can live together if we try. Give me a shovel instead of a gun. And I'll lend me a hand for now. And if we die, I'll die, I'll make something instead of tearing something down. He fell in love with the brave young woman, took her to be his bride. She shared his dream of a world going right, worked right by his side. But the war got to the love so low. A bullet left the young grown dead. And her tears of grief, the bride heard a gentle voice that said. Tell him I wasn't afraid to go my love. I wasn't afraid to die. I just didn't want to be the man to make another man's woman cry. Put my shell beside my grave, maybe someone else will find. To be brave enough to die, make something instead of tearing something down. Put my shell beside my grave, I'll save so long for now. Don't worry my love, we're gonna make it. I know we're gonna make it so my love. You've been listening to an interview with Tom Chisholm of Veterans for Peace. You can listen to this program again via my website, NorthernSpiritRadio.org, where you'll also find lots of links and information about my guests and other programs. Music featured in this program includes "Johnny I Hardly Nuya" by Joan Baez, "I Need to Marchen Anymore" by Phil Oakes, and "Brave Man from Ohio" by Andy Murray. The theme music for "Spirit in Action" is "I Have No Hands but Yours" by Carol Johnson. Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeet@usa.net. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is "Spirit in Action." ♪ I have no higher call for you than this ♪ ♪ To love and serve your neighbor ♪ ♪ Enjoying selflessness ♪ ♪ To love and serve your neighbor ♪ ♪ Enjoying selflessness ♪ ♪ To love and serve your neighbor ♪ ♪ To love and serve your neighbor ♪ You