Spirit in Action
Sr Judie (Judith Ann) Wagener - A Life of Community and Service
Judith Ann Wagener has been a School Sister of Notre Dame since 1961, a period that has seen vast changes in American society and in the Catholic Church. She started as a teacher but followed a leading into pastoral ministry over 20 years ago, for the last 9 with St James the Greater Catholic Church in Eau Claire.
- Broadcast on:
- 15 Jun 2008
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- other
[music] ♪ Let us sing this song for the healing of the world ♪ ♪ That we may hear as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world alone ♪ ♪ And our lives will feel the echo of our healing ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpes Me. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. ♪ Let us sing this song for the dreaming of the world ♪ ♪ That we may dream as one ♪ ♪ With every voice of every song ♪ ♪ We will move this world alone ♪ My guest today for Spirit in Action has been a member of the school sisters of Notre Dame since 1961. Sister Judy Wagoner started off in education, but followed a powerful and clear leading into pastoral ministry over 20 years ago. Sister Judy is one of a fruitful family who have turned their lives to service, including her brothers, Steve and Pete, both members of Veterans for Peace and active in many other ways. Judy has widened her understanding and compassion for all of God's people through trips to El Salvador, Assisi, and Israel. And I'm pleased to know her as a member of the Faith Connections Ministerial Group here in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. Sister Judy, thanks so much for joining me for Spirit in Action. I'm very glad to be here with Mark. I guess I've known you now for, I don't know, maybe five years it's coming on. I've known you through the Interfaith Ministerial Council that we have here in Eau Claire. First of all, I want to express my appreciation for your participation in that group. There's Presbyterians and Methodists and there's Mias Quaker and there's Lutherans and so on. But you and Father John are the only two Catholics. What led you to get involved in that group? Well, we talked about it when we got the invitation and I said, "Let's do it" and so did Father John. Both have had experience in other parts of the state being in Ecumenical Groups and I see how it broadens us in helping for understanding other groups as well as our own. As I said to you earlier, Sister Judy, or just Judy, does that work okay? That's fine. You don't have to give me a title all the time. Since I grew up Catholic, I was aware back in the 1960s of the divide between Catholics and Protestants and it seems to me that you and Father John are lessening that gulf that sometimes still exists much less so than it was in the 1960s. What's been your perception of how that divide between Protestants and Catholics has changed in your lifetime as a nun, which is something like 50 years? Well, you know, I grew up here in Eau Claire and I can well recall that we were not even belong to the YMCA. And so to have it changed in so much as it says to me, we are really becoming more of a one family awareness that there are many areas that we can do things together. What I'm aware of since I say the 60s is that what are ways that we have things that help us to work together and to bond rather than what separates us? And do you feel that's been reciprocal, that that's been both Catholics embracing more in the wider culture and Protestants not being afraid to walk into a Catholic church? I understand at a certain point in the past, you know, Protestants, you're going to go to hell if you go into a Catholic church. Yes, I think that really has been both reciprocal in that in my experiences. I know I really have seen a lot more people feeling free to come to ask questions coming together to pray together. I've been involved in what we call the church unity times in January. Just really helping us to come to understand what's our viewpoint, how we see things come at truth in different ways. One of your duties as a pastoral minister with St. James, the greater church here in Eau Claire, is to do some of the instruction of new members coming into that faith community. Do you get people who were Protestants of some sort who are becoming Catholics? Is there that kind of interchange now as opposed to the solid dividing wall? Very much so, we have. And you know, it's interesting. Sometimes it's through a spouse or sometimes it's through a neighbor or a co-worker. What we really stress with these people is that you have been on a journey and now you're taking a different turn on that journey. And you're coming to question and look at what is a Catholic church's view on this? And is this where I'm being called to worship God? So that's very much what I do in talking with them and always stressing that you're not going to start fresh new with the Lord. That your journey has been already a number of years. You've had a long journey so far with the Catholic church from upbringing and so on. You went to Regis High School here, Catholic school here in Eau Claire. You've had something like 47 years almost with the school sisters of Notre Dame. Talk to me a little bit about what led you to give your life to the work of spirit in that manner. What called you to that? Why did you do that? It's just because you don't like kids and you don't want to raise them. That's hardly the truth since I worked with them so much. When I was in great school, I had the sisters from La Crosse, Franciscans at Sacred Heart Parish, and they really interested me in themselves. And then we used to get letters from my dad's aunts who were Notre Dame sisters and taught in different parts of Wisconsin. So there was a little bit of interest then. In 1951, we went to Sheboygan and celebrated two of them, one celebrated 50 years, the other celebrating 60 years as being a sister. And when I met those sisters in their own home and saw them doing the dishes and having laughter together and saw how they were really community, that I feel is one of the big seeds of my vocation. Because whenever I would think about, "Do I want to be a sister?" and people would ask me, that experience would come back very clearly to my memory. And as the my community asked me what brought me to be a school student at Notre Dame, I know it was that August 15, 1950, that I can remember that clearly. So it sounds like you had a real draw to the kind of community and the joy in community that you witnessed in your great aunts. What was the work that called you? Obviously there's different ministries, that there's different rules, different orders of nuns. You chose the school sisters, in part because of the example of your great aunts. What was the work that called you? What is the work that you were called to do? You know, there have been some of us that have talked about this. We found that we were called, we felt called, "Two Religious Life." And I can remember the second day I was there, the sister in charge, we called our directors, asked me, "You know, what area did I want to go to as I start my college years?" And I said, "I just want to be a sister." But then, being we were a teaching community, I said, "Well, I know I'd like to work with the younger children." So then, I went into elementary education. But I found it interesting that as I looked in terms of life work, I was focused more on being a sister. And it didn't matter what the work would be. In order to become a nun, to become a sister, there's vows you take. And I think there's different vows you take with each order. Could you talk about the vows that you took, what they're named now, maybe what they were named back 47 years ago, that were part of your commitments? And I asked this in part being aware that one of the reasons that a number of us would not have chosen to take holy orders in that way is because we want to do families. We want to do children. We want to live out that expression of love. What were the vows that you took, and how do those relate to, I guess, maybe competing desires in your life? When I took vows, which would have been a little bit before Vatican II, which in 1961, we had three vows. And we followed the rule of St. Augustine, which focuses on love and community. And our vow of poverty, chastity, and obedience is how we named them at that time. And today, we call it gospel poverty, which basically is the same, holding all things in common in the community. I do not own anything myself. You know, I use it and I share. And then the vow of chastity, we now have call it celibate love, which we see as enables us to love all of God's people more readily, and not just zeroing in on family or one person. And the third vow of obedience, we call it now apostolic obedience, which is now we see it as calling us to discern what is God's will for me in this community. So it's not just what I'm going to do, but more focused on what is God calling me and us as a community to do for God's people. Could you outline for me what your history was, just the broad sweep of the work that you did and the concurrent changes that were happening with the Catholic Church and your specific order within the Catholic Church, the school sisters of Notre Dame? You have such a large expanse of years that you've watched our society change. Some of it good and maybe some of it not so good. How do you look at that and what have you seen in your 47 plus years in relation to the school sisters of Notre Dame? I began as a teacher in the elementary school. I taught for nearly 25 years and certainly I saw a lot of changes happen not only in society, but in our community during that time. And we had many sisters even during that time began to look beyond the classroom. We began to have sisters that were lawyers, dentists, social workers, and some that began in parish work. We had more ministries that were not just classroom orientated and being that our title is school sisters of Notre Dame, majority people still think that we're just in schools. But by 1970, our community looked at education in the broadest sense, meaning what are we doing? How can we help to broaden and enhance people's learnings and getting along with others, becoming their best potential? So that's been more our focus I'd say since the 70s in terms of our ministries, in terms of how we work together with others. I think that the school sisters of Notre Dame originated in the early to mid-1800s. Why were they founded? What was the role that they were trying to fill? We began in 1833 and Mother Teresa of Jesus, your hearting her, as our founder is. She was in Bavaria in Reagensburg area and at that time the schools had been closed and especially there were not any girls able to go to schools. She saw this great need as did the Bishop Whitman of that area at that time. So she began, she had some education and she began studying under his direction and became the teacher to the area, gradually called to begin this religious community. And so women and girls and what they did was not only teaching the academic subjects but also with regard to the arts, music, cooking, the whole area. We'd say technical schools too, they had so installed in Munich we have a regular college and also this technical college that we sisters have been teaching in. I think public schools in what we know is the United States that that really didn't originate until into the 1800s here. So the school system is coming up there. The role of women changed significantly over the last 170 years, 100-8 years. What has that role of women, both the school sisters of Notre Dame and the role of women in society? How has that changed in terms of this period of service that you've given over to spirit in the last 47 years? Well for one thing when our sisters came in 1842 to the United States our rule was that the children were to come to the sisters for their education. Well it wasn't that way even in those early days so it began to look at how we would go to the schools to teach. That was an entirely different aspect for what they experienced especially in Europe at that time. Mother Caroline, we consider as being our founders, we really did a lot in the United States. She went by horse and buggy, she went by steamboat all throughout the areas starting areas where sisters would help to begin schools. Very often it was with the new settlements of the Catholics to have like two or three there and then started having other women or men join them as teachers. So you know it was beginning way back then already to broaden education for all. And of course we came especially for the immigrants of the Germans to help them to keep their education going when we first came. In the last 50 years a lot of churches and by that I'm referring to Protestant Christian churches have adopted a higher involvement of women and more roles for women within church structure. How has that changed in your experience of the Catholic Church here for the last 50 years? Well what I've experienced in my own self is that as I was teaching very often it was asked to teach the students that went to the public schools. And so we often did that on Saturday mornings or some evenings. We'd call that religious education. But then in the I'd say about the late 60s we began to see more and more people taking charge and being the directors of that. More like a principal for religious education classes. Maybe you've heard of some of the schools they had released time where the students would be bused from the public school to the Catholic school and have additional classes then. I know this is very very much in Minnesota. A lot of our sisters were involved in that. But then what we saw two was changes in regard to being called into different works. Like I know that there were some sisters that were asked to be in the diocese in office to work with teachers to work with people from other countries in mission work etc. And we ourselves were being called to look at how we would help other poor countries. Like in the late 60s we began to go to Central America. We are an international community so we're throughout the world as is. But now we are being called to meet a different kind of need. And so we respond to that too. You have your role as a woman. They're also Catholic priests or wise men. One of the transitions you made after teaching for all those years was to become a pastoral minister. Talk about the evolution of that in particular as it relates to the Catholic Church and the role of women in Catholic Church. I'd say we're about in the early 1970s. I was studying in the summer times. We often go to get some continuing education. And I went to St. Norbert's in DePere and I met a pastoral minister. It was her title. It was a sister that was doing this. I really felt a real call to investigate more into that. And that was where there were some people meeting the needs of different areas of the parish. And some priests, some pastors and even some bishops were open to having women minister in different capacities beyond being in charge of religious education or being principled in a school or whatever. To meet the needs of people like going out to the sick or the homebound. Or some of them were doing things like filling in while a priest was gone. What priest was sick. It became a more acceptable to see women on the staff. And like I know when I went in 1985 to a parish, I was asked to be in charge of the liturgy, which would be the worship, as well as the religious education. And through my years of being in parish work, which is now almost 25, I've noted that my title has always been different. Sometimes I've been just the pastoral minister. Sometimes I'm in the pastoral social, which means recognize that I have a degree in pastoral work. And sometimes I've been liturgist, homebound coordinator. So it's been interesting to see. The newness tells that the title was according to the need of the area or that particular parish. You started out in Holy Orders or in that direction in 1959, Judy. Would it have been possible back in 1959 for you to be a pastoral minister within the Catholic Church? Was that a role that existed back then? Before I answer the question, I just have to verify you. I didn't start out in Holy Orders. Holy Orders, we think of being the sacrament that the priests have, community life or religious life. It's usually the title we call when we enter a religious community. I don't think there were any pastoral ministers, let's say, in the 50s. If it were, it'd be more of a principle working with a pastor, which might have been kind of a form of pastoral ministry. And some would say, "I haven't really done any real research on this." But I'd say the 1960s, late 1960s, especially after Vatican II, is where there began to be a development of titles. And that women were taking more of an active role in parishes. Does this represent a kind of promotion for you? And what I was specifically wondering is, if the option had been there within the Catholic Church? And again, I'm not trying to get you into trouble here with your superiors. But would it have been thinkable? Would it have been a desirable thing for you to enter Holy Orders? That is to say specifically to become a priest, if like the Anglicans, whatever you could be a Catholic priest and be a woman. Would that have been attractive? Would that have been a kind of ministry that would have fit for you? You know, I've asked myself that question a number of times, especially in these last ten years. And I'd say no, I'd say no in terms of how the structure is in the Catholic Church now as it is an institution. I'd have to say it'd have to be much broader based with having women involved in other areas in decision making, for example. So in terms of the priesthood itself, I'd say that never has been a real part of my kind of thinking. But what I have dreamed about more is that we work collaboratively in what that means. How does God call us? And there are some that are gifted with preaching, with being priests, I believe, women too. But how do we help these gifts to be used? And in what form? I think that we, the Catholic Church, have a lot to search out together about that. One of the things that led me to, Judy, besides the fact that I knew you from the ministerial group, is I've interviewed two of your brothers. It's quite a fruitful pack of individuals that come out of your family. Pete was in Vietnam War. He has his own revelations about that. I heard him speaking at a Veterans for Peace presentation on Veterans Day a couple of years ago. Steve is active with Veterans for Peace, though he actually never served in the military. He's been an activist and is an activist in a number of ways. And people should go to wagthedogproductions.com or .org. You better look on my website and find which one he does a fair amount of activism. And that's all coming out of your family. I guess I could recognize that really active a spirit, though you chose to express it in community in a way differently than either of them have chosen. Talk about your own feelings and experience of the Church as carrying out what's put forth in the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount. How much did that matter to you as part of your vocation or in terms of being part of a church that makes those kind of changes that work of the spirit happened in the world? What I'm most aware of is that I really see the call to work in a group, the community. There is going to be much more resources. There is much more availability. And I see that as being a part of my call as a school sister Notre Dame and also as a woman in the Church. One thing that has stayed with me that one of my mentors said to me, we cannot change things if we're not a part of it. That's one reason why I had tried to continually stay very active in the Church and also been very aware of being a part of different aspects of peace building, of being involved in environmental issues that we do as a community. I might not be able to do every single one, but I know my community is very concerned about them. And also concerned about how are we responding globally. And since we are a global community, we really take that very much to heart. Pete and Steve and I have never sat down and talked much about it, but I think they somewhat know my heart is very much with how they view things in terms of being active in promoting peace and promoting things that are going to give life. This is something that you, Judy, as an active pastoral minister can pursue. I mean, I've seen you at the Veterans Day observances, the Veterans for Peace Veterans Day observances. Is it something that you're free to speak out to? Is that incompatible with your role as a pastoral minister? I'd say I'm very much free to do that, and I'd say that very often it's good to be as a pastor minister to be seen in promoting what ways are we helping this world to be aware, to bring awareness for one thing, and then to make it happen. We as a community have also looked at having a corporate stance in things, and also when can we as an individual speak out, and we've received guidelines because we've talked about it so much and said, we need to be a part of this. And so I'd say, as a woman in the church and also as a pastoral minister, that that is a very important part of promoting what is the way Jesus has been teaching us. What have I going to live out because we are to really put an action today, what we have been saying we've been believing? I know that this will come as no surprise to you, but I've never been a woman. I don't fully understand woman's role in the world, and I don't understand how you've lived your life, and I can listen deeply, but I still haven't lived the experience. I figure, though, that within your role as a woman and as a religious woman within the Catholic Church, you felt growing edges over the decades, and I imagine at the same time, while you felt you're growing edges, there's other people's edges that had to move to accommodate that. So, you know, I know Father John, I appreciate respect him deeply. How much of you helped him grow his edges in a different direction in the, I guess, nine years that you've been serving here in Eau Claire? Working with anyone nine years, you know that you're going to have edges that you smooth out or edges that come more forward, and with Father John, I, too, I really deeply appreciate him, and I know that we have both grown in many different ways because of our relationship and working together. I'd say, in terms of myself, that it's been very helpful for me to have to wrestle with some of the ideas. I'm more of a doing person, and so do you have to wrestle with, okay, what's the principles behind this? How are we going to approach it has been very, sometimes very disciplined for me to have to get to, to look at. I also know, and you were referring to about the women's part, you know, we see in different ways, and that's great because that can bring a fullness to whatever topic or whatever we're doing to balance. And that's what I see is a part of it, and, you know, and I'm sure that works very well with the marriage, too. You know, you both come at life questions and all with different aspects and different views, and it's in that sharing that we come to say, oh, yes, or this is what we'll do, or this is the way we approach it. So, it's been challenging, and it's been very growthful. Back when I was Catholic, and, you know, I started getting involved with Quakers back when I was about 18, when I was raised Catholic, women's roles with respect to religious education for more than children were very limited. I don't think that women could administer communion and so on. Those roles have changed. You've lived through that. Have you continued to see those roles enlarge for women during your tenure? In terms of our ministering, be it in worship or whatever, it's true. It's a Vatican Council, too, really opened the doors, and some were more accepting of that. Some began like we even have girls' servers, you know, and adult servers, women and men, and Euchistic ministers and lectures. We call them the people that do the readings in the scripture during the worship. And, of course, there's much more done behind the scenes by a variety of women. Have I seen that change and grow in my years? Yes, I have. I would love to see many more women involved in it. And there's some areas that haven't been touched, too, that need to possibly have a look at in terms of how are we serving others and serving the poor. This is Spirit in Action, a Northern spirit radio production, and I'm your host, Mark Helpsmeet. Sister Judy Wagner is my guest, pastoral minister at St. James the Greater Catholic Parish here in Eau Claire. Judy is approaching 47 years of service as part of the school sisters of Notre Dame. As we were talking earlier, Judy, I felt a wave of sadness about the decrease in both male and female religious orders within Catholic Church. There was a rich presence of that that I experienced as a child myself, which I hold fondly, but there's been a decrease in those numbers dramatically. Talk about your own feeling and perception of what that's about and why that is changing, if you will. For so many years, the way that particularly women could serve in the Church was through religious communities. I believe that God continues to call men and women to live special lives of faith in religious communities. The form of it is what I see as changing a lot and changed a lot. For example, my community was to be educating women and girls, and for many years, that's what our focus was. But by the 1960s, we could see that it's a broader call of education and how we live it out. And so for us, we began to do all the different types of ministries and all. And what I see too is that the ways that we can serve are much more open. There weren't the calls to lay volunteers back in the early years when I began. Or people will commit themselves for a certain number of years to work in a mission or in a foreign country, you know, with the Church. That, I think, is a tremendous experience, life-giving. Also, we note that family sizes are smaller. There's not that parental encouragement to think about possibly being in religious life or being in priesthood, you know. And so we say the call is still there. And we know that the Holy Spirit is very much active in all people's lives. And so what is the way that we're called to live it out? And I think too, what we're becoming more aware of is that the forms of how we see Church, you know, has been this parish with this priest in charge and all. That is changing too in terms of the being maybe more leaders being in charge of the areas of pastoral life that are not the sacraments and that the priest be able to focus more just in those areas and what every area of his gifts that the Lord is calling him to do. Earlier when we were speaking, Judy, you mentioned about the Church and particularly women of religious being called to be more active with regard to Central America. I think you actually traveled and spent a little bit of time there. What did you observe? What was your role there? Why did you go to Central America? And what is this increasing role? I mean, the main way I think of the Catholic Church with respect to Central America was in the early 80s when in El Salvador, the Marynal sisters and some others were killed, I think by government or by government-associated groups. And in that case, I was thinking, I thought, I felt that those were women religious who were really doing work of spirit, putting their lives on the line for that. How does that connect with your call or the Church's call for women religious towards Central America? I was invited to go along with a group called Global Awareness Through Education and we had a week there and I happened to go at the time, it was the 25th anniversary since the Marynal sisters and the others had been murdered in El Salvador. It was very eye opening for me, first of all, just to experience a Central American country. To walk part of the steps that they had been doing, we met and met with some of the women that are being organized for their neighborhood to kind of almost like take back the neighborhood. Also, they were promoting having water available, fresh water available for their children and their homes. And we as a group when we came back, many of us went out to speak about this need and got monies to promote that wells could be dug for these places. I myself don't see myself going to live like in Central America, but there are some that are called to do that. And now, like my community had been working with children in foster homes or helping to organize that, or I know some have worked in medical centers in helping the needs of the people being met for basic needs of medicine. I don't know and I think it depends upon how the bishop and those in charge of the church in that area, how they would call for needs, call for sisters. I'm sure there would be some that will respond regardless. We have gone into that area and we did a lot with education, you know, starting schools and helping to teach teachers, which I think is a very important part. That was one of your excursions to the foreign world, if you will, to see how things are lived out differently there. You've had a couple other trips abroad from my childhood when I thought of people being missionaries. I thought of people going from the United States to foreign countries and say you have to become religious like us. And it doesn't sound like that's what you were really doing there. Has the church changed a lot with respect to what missionaries do? Is there a role to build the Catholic church because that's the only place you can be saved? Or is there a different role or did I just misunderstand it as a child, in that there's that possibility of course? Well, I think what you had as basic from your childhood was really where it was at at that time. I think now it's more a call to how can we help people to live more their full potential. And so while I can tell you myself, I've been a missionary in Wisconsin all my years, you know, and I could say a missionary and that being sent forth, but in terms of people going to other countries, we still have some of that. But then we see like right here in our lacrosse diocese, we have a number of priests that were born in other countries that are helping and being priests in our diocese. So it broadens the view of church for one thing, and I think it's giving us experiences beyond our own borders, which probably is helping us to become more aware that we are global, we are aware of the whole world, and we're part of one world. My understanding back in days of your was that when people became part of religious community, they pretty much gave up their previous identity. I think for nuns, they typically changed their names and they weren't really part of their family, weren't supposed to have touch with that life before. I think that's changed. Talk about that transformation and what that's meant for you. Obviously, I've seen you with your family and just this past weekend, you were at graduation for your youngest nephew. Very true. It really has changed a lot. In fact, when I entered, I thought from what I knew from my relatives that were in the community that the only time they would be able to go back home was at the death of one of their parents. So when I learned the next day that we would be able to go home to visit our parents even that year as a new person, a postulent, it really did my heart out of good. Then it has changed a lot. In fact, by the time I had taken vows in 1961, we could go home within five years to go for a home. We called it a home visit at that time. So that has changed a lot. In terms of our own living, when I entered, we wore the long black habit and I wore that with the veil and all. And I also got a different name and that was to signify that we had an entirely different way of life. I had my mother and dad's name. I was sister Rita Vincent. About 1970, we received word from our superiors that we could go back to our baptismal names. And so when I went from one mission to another, I went back to my name since I became sister Judith Ann or sister Judy as a majority call me. It really was insightful for me. I could go home after about three years, really. And I did miss seeing my younger brothers and sisters really grow up. But my mission where I was stationed, like when I was in Chippewa, I did get to see my family more often than if I had lived in Milwaukee where I had taught before. And so I think awareness that you never can change your family. It's always a part of you. It's a very important part of our lives. I'm very grateful that that was changed. And I think awareness that we were not called to a cloistered group. We were called to be with the people of God and who more than our own family should we be part of. I don't know if this will get you into trouble. Would you recommend to young women and young men these days to go into religious community? I certainly would ask them to consider it. And for one thing, it is always, we're always calling people to look at how is God calling you to live out your life. And it is a very viable option for a lifestyle. And we have people that are in charge of helping young girls and women to look at it in young men. And I'd say now what we look at more is also they finish their high school years and many times they're college, but some of them that have looked at religious life have not gone to college. And then we also have some that are already grandparents that have entered the religious communities. And a part of it is focusing on what is God calling me to do at this time in my life in terms of being a part of the church? How can I best use my gifts that God has given me? And sometimes it really means to be a part of a community where we can call forth and share with one another, do things that I wouldn't be able to do if I just lived in a single life. That's something I haven't thought about much, what you mentioned about in later in life one can enter a religious community. I always thought that it meant you couldn't get into religious community unless you promised that you had never had sex. And so when you mentioned that someone as a grandparent can enter a religious community, it just means that you're going to be celibate from the time you enter the religious community. Is that what that means? You don't have to have been perfect in the past? That's really true. And also same with the priesthood. You know, we do have older priests that were married, that their wife died, and then went in to become priests. So it certainly has changed a lot in terms of that. I think there are three or four in our own province that have entered later. No, you better explain the word province because most people don't think of provinces in the United States. They think of that up in Canada. That's right. I'm sorry I forgot that part. Our community is international, and we are sectioned into provinces. So I'm in the Milwaukee province, which covers most of Wisconsin, Indiana, some Indiana, Michigan. And there are eight of our provinces throughout the United States in Canada. This program, Judy, is called Spirit in Action. And one of the things that I think of as I try and focus on spirit in action is what the accomplishments are. Can you name accomplishments in your life that stand up for you as given the kind of pure joy of spirit that we seek after the faithfulness and the results that make us say thank you, God, for helping me be part of this change, this growth, this achievement? Well, I'd say one of the basic things is coming into pastoral work that I really felt the call, and when I began to be a pastoral minister, I really knew this is where God wanted me to direct my energies. Some of the experiences would be like, in helping people to come to know the faith through their questioning and becoming a Catholic if they want to or not. And I've walked with some that have come all the way and become a Catholic. And some that have said, you know, I do not feel called through this faith, and to be happy with them and coming to that step in their own faith journey. I think that's been very important and a very spirited experience for me. I'd say another area is when I've been able to share the word, and there have been times when I've been able to give a reflection on the readings. It's not accepted for us women to do it at the time in our worship right after the Gospel reading, but there are times that we can do it in not a part of the liturgy. There's something about knowing that the Lord has called me to that, to share that. Other experiences, I'd say, where we have a women's weekend, what we try to have women have a chance to get to know one another, get a little more taste of what our Catholic faith is about in different aspects of prayer or whatever, and we've been doing that at St. Beads for nine years now. And it's just been so good to be a part of the planning and be a part of seeing what happens when women get a chance to be more together in terms of gathering for faith. I know there also is an awareness more and more, because we have it in Winona, that there are some women that have been ordained as priests, and I know they're excommunicated from the Catholic Church as such, but yet they feel called to really live out the calling of being the leader in worship and all. I know this is something that some of us have looked at and said, "Is this the way change is going to happen in the Catholic Church?" I'm not sure, but I feel the Spirit is very much alive, moving in different ways. And what form that is? I'm glad to be a part of that questioning and that in this in-between time and being a bridge. You talked, Judy, about your experience with people coming in and, I guess, studying to be Catholics discerning whether they want to be part of the Catholic community. If they're coming from a non-Christian origin, maybe Jewish, Hindu Muslim, who knows what, maybe just atheists, they've undoubtedly had access to not only Christian scriptures, but perhaps a Buddhist scriptures, you know, Bhagavad Gita or something. How has that looked at now from the Catholic Church's point of view? I mean, I was raised with the Catholic Bible, including the Apocrypha, the books that generally Protestants do not adopt. How has that looked at? Is those, like, bad tainted? Are they interesting, valuable? Do you have to put that aside, nor do you become a Catholic? Well, one thing that we stress as we begin to talk with people that are interested in the Catholic Church is that you're not all of a sudden starting a journey. Your faith journey has been happening through the years, and it may be. Maybe it was in Buddhism, for example. So we don't deny that part of their life at all, but we see it as now becoming richer and enhanced by what they have walked in journey through. Because Catholic faith means that I will accept Jesus as being my Savior and my God. They maybe have to have a little more background, and they have to work with them more intensely in terms of who is this Jesus, how does this fit into what I have been. And it's very often, it's a one-on-one kind of journey for a while, and yet at the same time, helping them to become aware we are community, and that we grow in faith together. So it's a challenge, a bit of a different kind. I wanted to go back to a little bit more of your journey, which included trips out of the United States. You told me earlier, Sister Judy, that when you reach 25 years, there's a kind of pilgrimage you got to make. And you got to go back to the old country, I guess, and see some of the roots there. Where did you go, and what was most important about that journey, and I'm asking you to be honest, even though there's going to be some superiors listening who are going to say, well, maybe she was supposed to like Rome best. Well, when our 25 years as a sister, we had the opportunity to go to our headquarters, and by 1959, we were asked to put all our community leadership in Rome, because they were asking all the leaders of international communities to be there. So we have a headquarters in Rome itself. That is where we met. Neither about 60 of us from different parts of the world that came, that were celebrating that 25 years. And we were from Japan, and from Germany, but mostly from the United States at that time, because the way they had set up the times. And we spent some time in Rome itself as a program, and we also had a time of a prayer we call a retreat. And then we went by train to Bavaria. Our community began in the area near Raagensburg and Stadomhof. And so Munich became a headquarters soon after that. So we went to Munich area and then out from there for a good week or so. It just was a very life-giving to be at the roots of where our community started, and to be, you know, like the founders were in Mother Caroline and Mother Teresa had both been born in that area. And then Bishop Whitman, who also had guided our community, had been the Bishop in Raagensburg. So that was a really a great experience. For me, it was a little bit different. My mom had died the November before, and so when we went to Munich and we ended up at the grave site of our founders, it was a real breathing experience for me. I was grieving the loss of my own mom, and there I was at the founders of our community, her grave. And I forget our superior general at that time, Sister Mary Margaret came up to me and she said, "Just gave me Huggins and Judy. I know this is a really a God experience for you right here." And it really was. And so that was a very precious time for me. What I also loved was we had a few days in Assisi, and St. Francis has always been very special to me. And so to walk those streets, and it felt like it was in a way back in the 12th century because the streets were narrow, and a lot of the buildings were the same ones that he had experienced. That was also a very life-giving experience for me, more than Roman, St. Peter's or whatever. Why were you particularly drawn to St. Francis? What was it about St. Francis that you found attractive or about the life or the witness that he gave? For one thing, I had the Francis Consisters in grade school, and they always gave us the story of St. Francis, and I was always struck by his loving of peace, his loving of nature. And I used to love to read the legends about him talking with the different animals. And I think they weren't all just legends either. So to be in the very area where he was gave me a good shot in the arm of being a peacemaker, of really promoting the earth. And I never forget how excited it was when I learned that he was chosen as being the patron for ecology, that he would promote the earth and its natural things. I thought, how true. And it's part of me. Just call that forth more and more, I see. Well, there's at least one other trip that I'm aware of that you took abroad, and I think it's a really important part of your spiritual journey, particular in your later years as you've been dealing with cancer. Could you talk about what led up to and what you actually did in terms of traveling to the Holy Land? I began studying the Bible with a group from the cross area. There are three centers, one in the cross, one in Eau Claire, and one in Stephen's Point. And it was to cover the entire Bible studying it for four years. And so in 2003, I began that study. About in the third year, or even before that, we learned that as a culmination, there would be an opportunity to take a pilgrimage to the Holy Land itself. I hadn't really thought about it much, but one of the sisters in my community was with me. She said, "Oh yes, you're going to go on that trip." And so I began to think about it. I thought, that really would be an opportunity of a lifetime. So in 2007, we finished our classes, and we knew about the trip. And Mark, you made reference to my having cancer. I'm a survivor of two bouts of endometrial cancer. And so before I had my surgery last July, I said to the doctor, "I'm really planning to go with our group to the Holy Land, Israel, in January. And how will that work in with what I'm going through?" And he said, "Don't hesitate on your plans." He said, "We'll work around it." So I had my surgery in July, and then when we went in January, we worked around my chemo therapy schedule, according to when I would be gone and when I'd be back, which helped a lot. And in terms of being in Israel, like I said, I never dreamed I'd ever see the actual area. I was just more taken by the terrain and realizing that this is the area that Jesus had walked and had spent his years on this earth. I remember as we drove down the road in this area that's called the wilderness with all the hills and rocks, you know, and it's not seeing hardly any trees. I'd ask God, "Why would you choose this area for this to be the area for Jesus to come when there was much of nothing in this area?" But at the same time, I know it was such a center of all of culture and of life at that time. What a lesson we learned from him in regard to how he adapted and changed. So Mark, I don't know if I answered your question, but that's how I got there. Any particular experiences you had there, things that you witnessed that were transformational for you? I know that I haven't spent a lot of time reflecting on it yet because there's so much that I took in. But I think my experience of when we went through the gates to get into Bethlehem and realizing that this is how people are being kept into certain areas, the Palestinians, it just struck me as being so wrong. Here we have this sacred space of what we say where Jesus came was born in this area and now it's all completely surrounded by cement walls and gates. We didn't go through too many of those experiences, but as we drove down, even down the highways and saw the cement walls and knew that the Palestinians have to be within those areas or have their papers as to why they can be out. It really came home to me that how we human beings do try to control others in no matter, be the space they live or be their lives or whatever, and how inhuman that really is. I think also one of my experiences there of really walking in the area of Capernaum and seeing how it is kept to be a real peace area. And it's in the Franciscan priests and groups that have charged this area now and it was due to some people that brought up the areas I understand and said it is to be kept as it was, that it is the holy area that it is. It's not commercialized like other spots very often have been. I think also walking the walk of the way of the cross, I know it's not the same building areas that Jesus walked, but knowing that he had walked there and what he had done for us, I really had quite a God experience of that. A couple of people had to help me walk for part of it because I needed others. I think you mentioned that around Bethlehem there's a college there that struck you as well. Could you talk about that college? We were invited by a sister who had known about it to come to Bethlehem University. Pope Paul VI was the one that saw the need for higher education in the area, so the Christian brothers are the ones that have been taken care of it and continually have it. What we found interesting was we sat down with three of the Christian brothers that are there who talked to us about what they experienced and are experiencing, one had been there over 20 years and had been there through the wars and on, through the walls going up and off. What they are working towards is helping people to live together more. They have over 2,000 students and the majority of them are Muslims. They said what they see, not only educating them, but they have conferences where they work together. They do projects together that will help they hope to promote how do we live together. So we saw that as a real sign of great hope right in the midst of being suppressed and being in that area. Does this mean that someone can go to Bethlehem University, run by Christian brothers, and they don't have to become Catholics or they don't have to say they're going to go up their Muslim ways? Is this really okay? Yes, and you'll find in almost all our Catholic universities throughout the world, we have people from all different faiths coming to classes there. But I think Bethlehem would probably be much more pronounced in that it is such a focus on the religion, Muslim or Catholic or Jewish, you know. And we did ask them if they had Jewish students and they said yes, they had some, so they'd be in that atmosphere of being in there too. And they thought that was a very important part of their focus as a school. So, Judy, you made this trip to the Holy Land. Are there any remaining Holy lands you'd still like to visit? Is there any other special pilgrimage you'd feel called to do if you had the opportunity? I'd say since I'm about five, I've always wanted to go to Luxembourg. I know it's only 999 square miles, but my own grandmother was born there, and I just would really like to experience it. And even though I was in Germany, we didn't have a time to go into that area, but that's always been a dream of mine. And maybe someday I will get there before the end of my life. I think we've got to include that in this interview going out, so Father John can hear this and maybe he'll help free you up so you can make a little journey. Thanks so much, Judy, for your full life of service, you know, in service of the spirit and for the way that you and Father John reach out to the religious community here in Eau Claire and the way that you care for the world. Mark, thank you for this opportunity, just even to get me to begin to reflect on my own life experiences. It's just really good to be aware of how the spirit works in so many ways, and thank you for this opportunity. You're welcome. You've been listening to a spirit and action visit with Sister Judy Wagner, 47 years, a member of the school sisters of Notre Dame, and a pastoral minister with St. James the Greater Catholic Parish here in Eau Claire for the past nine years. The theme music for this program is Turning of the World, performed by Sarah Thompson. This spirit and action program is an effort of Northern Spirit Radio. You can listen to our programs and find links and information about us and our guests on our website, northernspiritradio.org. Thank you for listening. I am your host, Mark Helpsmeet, and I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world home. With every voice, with every song, we will move this world home, and our lives will feel the echo of our healing.