Spirit in Action
Clearwater Men's Council
I have no hands but yours to tend my sheep. No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep. I have no arms but yours with which to hold. The ones grown weary from this struggle and weak from growing old. I have no voice but yours with which to see. To let my children know that I am out and out is everything. I have no way to feed the hungry souls. No clothes to give or make it and the more. So be my heart, my hand, my tongue through you and will be done. The enders have my none to help and die. Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpsmeet. Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Above all, I'll seek out light, love and helping hands, being shared between our many neighbors on this planet, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. I have no way to open people's eyes, except that you will show them how to trust the inner mind. Today's Spirit in Action program will take us to a visit with five men of the Men's Group, Clearwater Men's Council. The group has been meeting in Eau Claire since 1990, changing the lives of hundreds of men over that time. In this interview, I, Mark Helpsmeet, am joined by Mark Ruddy, Art Lyons, Damien O'Brien and John Powers. I want to thank you men for showing up here tonight for this interview for Spirit in Action. I guess what I'd like to do is start by having each of you just introduce yourselves for our audience. Would you like to start, John? Yes, I would like to say something. I certainly would like to express my sincere appreciation for the opportunity to express my feelings and opinions about the men's group that I have recently joined. It is one of the most awesome experiences that I've had in the last year. Thank you for inviting me, and I think that those of you who are in the listening audience will learn a great deal about the importance of having a group like this, mainly because of the fact that men have the opportunity to express their emotions. Thank you, John. Mark, would you care to say anything, and how long have you been with this group? I've been part of Clearwater Men's Council for approximately ten years. I lose track. Basically, once a week, all of those ten years, and you know, I've thought about quitting at different times, and I've been reminded that, hey, it's in the long haul when you get benefit, and so I really recommend anyone to stick with it. And we have here art. Would you care the same thing about your involvement with the group? Yeah, just that I've been involved for, I don't know, two or three years. And Damien, can you tell the people when you came to the group? I came to the group somewhere in the early stages of the group. What usually drives me to seek out help is personal pain and crises in my own life, which in the past has usually been related to a failed love relationship and was getting some counseling and therapy for that. And Sandra, who happens to be Mark's spouse, recommended that I might be interested in a men's group that was meeting, and that was my connection to it. That's when I first started. I'm sure that some people in our audience have no idea what a men's group is or what we do. Clearwater Men's Council started back in 1990. And I'm going to ask Mark Ruddy to share a few words about the history of the group. Well, I'm going to read a list of thoughts about the Clearwater Men's Council that we share to any new man who comes to the group. And it starts by saying welcome. The Clearwater Men's Council is a safe place for all men to discover their unity and uniqueness, to risk facing their true selves and to challenge, support, and honor each other. As I said, Clearwater Men's Council started back in 1990. Franklin Hallie was the founder of the group. It met for about five months with just five or six men involved in it. And then it opened it up, decided to expand and to invite more men in. It grew from there till eventually by about 1993-94. The typical weekly meeting included about 30 men. Numbers have decreased quite a bit since then. The group grew out of various men's movement histories in the United States. And I wanted to invite Mark Ruddy to say a few more words about that. Well, this gave me the opportunity to kind of review that history a little bit. I realized that a significant group in the Midwest has been called the New Warrior Movement. And that started in Milwaukee in 1985. And that came out of a three people meeting who wanted to try to find a way to stop nuclear war from happening in this world. They came up with the idea of a group such as New Warriors, which was their name for a men's process group, and that we do a lot of things in the New Warrior model. As a way to change men's hearts as a way for men to get in touch with their shadow side and their feeling nature and find a way to release aggression in a positive way as a New Warrior in the world rather than someone who would take out their anger against their wife, their dog, their neighbor, a different country. They have a wonderful statement that says that their mission is to change the world one man at a time. I was born in the city hospital, torn from darkness into the light. First man I saw was the first to hit me. First woman I saw said, "Hush don't even cry." I played with girls. I was six years old. The guys told me you don't want no girl or friend. You can kiss someone. You can touch them. When you screw them, you'll be a man. Every man gonna be a soldier. Every man because it's a kill. Every man looking over his shoulder. Every man, these shingers still. I played war in the king of the mountain. When I hurt, I did not cry. Kids that laugh. The guy hit me. Hot fire in the stomach. I hit a little guy. I put him on his back. I'm makin' me. Eight year old cowboys. He said, "Come on!" "What's the matter? You a queer?" He was a molly. Pulled her down and kissed her. She got up, walked inside without a word. Every man caught his soldier. Every man because it's a kill. Every man looking over his shoulder. Every man, these shingers still. The king of the war. To my generation. The government said, "Son, it's your time. Make us proud." Some went to jail. Some went to Canada. Some went over. Some went crazy. Some went down. I walked the streets. Jagged with strangers. Wait for the gauntlet. To be heard. Pushed to shove. Edge of a razor. Mixed up out of it. He'll cut you good. Every man. For this soldier. Every man. He comes to kill. Every man. Looking over his shoulder. Every man. These shingers still. I'm killed. But I am not a killer. I have cried out at the devil in the dark. I have reached out through the bars of my confinement. I have watched the tower I visit. All apart. I'm going to sue for the breathing of the baby. I'm going to hold him in my arms when he cries. I'm going to meet my lover's gaze without turning. I'm going to sue myself. I'm going to be satisfied. Every man. Got to love a body. Every man. Got a curse on me. Every man. Got a heart in hiding. Every man. We'll all come and be with you. [Music] A lot of our listeners also will have heard of the mythopoetic men's movement. Robert Bly and the like of that. Men exploring their wild side. I want to invite the men here to comment on what you get out of men's group. Why do you come to a men's group? Does it serve any particular needs of yours or what brings you here? Do you have any comments on that art? Yeah, I guess I would say that I don't feel really much like a warrior or I don't feel particularly mythopoetic. I think what brings me to a men's group is really just that I would rather be known as a human being than a man. And I think that this is one of the ways to work in that direction. On a practical level, I work with mostly women. My best friend and life partner as a woman spent a lot of time with her. I don't spend a lot of time with other adult men and this group is a way for me to do that in a constructive way. Mark, do you have any ideas on that? I'm very aware that before I engage this men's group, I did not have very many close male friends. And I relied upon female relationships to be able to talk about my feeling self and what was in my heart. And I had historically a couple of men that I could do that with. But when push came to shove, it was with an intimate sexual relationship female that I would put 99.9% of my burdens and joys upon. And being a part of the men's group has allowed me to realize the limitations of that. Has shown me a way to take the pressure off of those heterosexual relationships by being able to find very authentic, deep, caring, sharing relationships with men. That really allow me to be myself totally as a male, not have to censor any of my language, be politically correct. And it allows me to be open in a different way than I can with a lot of women. I can be that open with Patty. But this men's group, because we're all men, and come from a cultural understanding of what it's like to be a man today. There's so many givens that I don't have to describe to them. There's so many politically correct things that I don't have to dance around. Do you have any comments, John? I normally do have comments, some of which are inappropriate. One may be inappropriate now, and that is that I have very few relationships with women. I've had a lot of female bosses and just a few female friends. I've had several male friends, but when we're together, we use words that are profanity-ridden based on football games, basketball games. I've had opportunities to be in other support groups. AA, Al Anon, groups for dealing with certain addictions and so forth. I found that those groups were useful in the fact that they provided support. I'm relatively new to this group, and I found it to be almost divine intervention that I was invited, because I needed it so very much. And the reason I needed it so much was not only do I receive support, but I receive what I call an uplifting approach or a challenge to my feelings and to my emotions opposed to just saying, "Yes, we understand where you're at." I'm actually challenged as to what my thinking and my feelings are, and they have caused over the past several months an awful lot of insight. Some attitudes that I find refreshing and some comments that I receive from my significant other that say, "Gee, it's really good that you're in a group of good men, spiritual men that can help you along a path to be the best that you can be." And I appreciate the group so very much, and I look forward to learning, and I look forward to the opportunity to contribute. Just one more comment on that question. One of the things I noticed when I first started in this group, I came at the invitation of a friend with some hesitations, but what I noticed immediately was that it's a setting and a process that I've never experienced in any other gathering of any kind. Traditionally, at least in my life and in the life that I've witnessed, there are ways that men to get together and spend time together. Men sit around and talk about the game or watch the game. They sit around and talk about politics, complain about the government. Maybe they work side by side in the driveway fixing the car or solving some other problem together, but it's not a problem that's really internal to them. It's a problem that is external, and they're working side by side instead of face to face. And the thing that struck me immediately when joining this group was that the men are sitting face to face with no props, with no government problems or football scores to sort of provide the conversational context. And it really does feel a bit naked in that sense psychologically, and that's what's both, I think, frightening about it, but also very full of potential and very inviting about it. I'll toss in my two cents worth. I was used to having friends, both male and female, but more so female because I didn't disclose, didn't find a place where it was really acceptable to be completely honest. And that's what I found in men's group is I found a place for honesty over the last 15 years I've been attending. [music] As my life runs through my fingers and it snags on that's time to time. Just talking to you helps them slip through a buddy like you is hard to find. Buddies like you never need to be told what buddies like me need to say. Life has a flair when you're standing there and it's hollow when you're away. [music] Remember that night I was ready to die, shared your last Cuban cigar. I lay down in a highway but no one drove by so you went to borrow a car. Buddies like you never need to be told what buddies like me need to say. Life has a flair when you're standing there and it's hollow when you're away. [music] What I held you at, all them lines in your face. And you helped me grow these gray hair. If I make you sore, hell what are friends for? We're buddies 'cause I know you care. Well I like you better than corn on the cob. More than the air that I breathe. You're a mug of cold beer, you're a laugh, you're a tear. Buddies, you're a goddamn relief. Buddies like you never need to be told what buddies like me need to say. Life has a flair when you're standing there, it's hollow and empty. When you're away. [music] When John was speaking, he mentioned a spiritual group of men. I do not know that all men's groups would describe themselves as spiritual and I'm not sure everyone here would use that term for us. I want to ask you men, in which way is your experience here spiritual? How does it compare to spiritual or religious environments you've been in before? How is it different? Where is the overlap or lack of overlap? Mark? I'm the one that came to you Mark and said hey let's involve men's group here in spiritual action because I see this as spiritual work and that's the word I put on it. For me, spirituality is anything that creases my ability to give love and be authentic and my work within the men's group. That's the nature of it and I really don't divide my life into spiritual and non-spiritual. All of my life is spiritual and so this context just totally flows with that. Art? To piggyback on Mark's comment, the dividing life among spiritual and something else profane or whatever the opposite might be is not a particularly useful thing to do either. I think the spiritual tradition and teachings that I've sort of tapped into over the years have asked me to not worry a lot about metaphysics and esoterics and things that I can't know or control. They've asked me to sort of live my life with attention day by day and that's something I struggle with quite a bit. I think the men's group is something that helps that because the men's group is something that promotes real honesty and honesty about things that are important and a kind of honesty and a kind of problem solving in some cases that allow me to leave the room, to leave the group, and do a bit better job being in the moment, being with the situations that I'm in, living what some people might call more spiritual life. And John? I echo completely what Mark said about spirituality as being pretty much no matter where he is. I feel the same way. I feel spirituality not only in this group, not only in church, not only in my bedroom or out in the woods when I'm skiing or biking. I find spirituality no matter where I'm at. And as Mark mentioned, spirituality is loving other people and doing what Jesus and Christ recommended and that is being there for other people and loving other people and being kind to other people and seeing other people. And we have the opportunity to experience that each and every single day. Damien? On the way over, I was kind of contemplating just what is spirituality to me and the comments have really helped me to have a clearer understanding. It's kind of nebulous for me. It's the past. It's having conversations with people I really love to or deceased now and my head and feeling that they're really there with me and that they're still present in a kind of a form. It's whatever the future is going to bring it is certainly now and it is certainly indoors, outdoors. It could be in a Catholic church where I take my mother. It could be a midnight mass in Milwaukee, a jazoo in the middle of a poverty-stricken neighborhood with just angelic music and very good Jesuit, compassionate wisdom. It can be a peace rally on State Street. It certainly is outdoors. I think where I feel really connected spiritually is alone in a beautiful spot like big falls at sunset or something like that. And certainly the spirituality between people of things like the men's group, another place I go for that kind of a thing would be a 12-step group. All of these things and more. I think maybe it helped people to understand what men's group is about if we talk a little bit about the format. The format has changed over the years. When the group was fairly large, we usually started with a session with all men present and then we'd break into small groups. We each go around and do a very brief check-in in that big circle. That would be just a couple of sentences. And it would be direct "I" feeling words. That is to say, "I am happy today. I'm sad. I'm angry. I'm tired. You can attach whatever you want to it." We'd have some announcements, that kind of thing. And then we'd break into small groups where we do check-in. And again, check-in is we bring ourselves present. We have some rules for how our sessions work. Amongst them, our sessions are confidential. What we say here stays here. So we're free to share our experience with other people outside the group, but we do not share the experience of another man without his prior approval. We don't give advice unless it's asked. And that is particularly to avoid one of the downfalls of many groups where we give advice to each other without hearing each other first. So if a man asks for advice, we give it, but not before. We do encourage response, clarification, and questioning. And a very important one is we speak for ourselves using "I" statements. As opposed to saying, "You know, it pisses you off when someone cuts in front of you." We say, "It pisses me off when someone cuts in front of me." And we call ourselves men, because this is a place where we recognize that we're all coming from a largely common experience in our culture, along with many differences. Mark, say a few more things about how we meet. Right now, instead of doing that small check-in, because we're a small group, we probably vary from three to six people a night, and we're open to as many as want to come. We go around the room and pretty much divide up the time that we have in the evening, according to how many men there are there, who give them an opportunity to talk about what's going on in their week. We encourage men to stay out of their heads as much as possible, get into their gut and heart, be real, be authentic, and talk about real stuff rather than giving us a travel report, or what we would kind of call just busy bullshit, and get down to real stuff that has meaning in their life that they really value, or things that are challenging them. And it brings up a memory for me here, where I was being challenged by different rules of discussion that I was finding between myself and my 27-year-old son, and I was grappling for a way to connect with Tim, be close to Tim, honor who he was, and yet I felt kind of myself pushing my agenda. And so I can remember one week where I brought that concern here, talked about the pieces of a puzzle as I knew it, and yet was able to talk to men here who've had children and get advice from them about, you know, what might be a better approach for me to use, a different approach on maybe what my son might be feeling when I approached him in certain ways. And boy, that was nitty-gritty advice that, you know, immediately the next day I was able to communicate with Tim in a different way. I would be very interested if any of the men here tonight have any examples of how their lives have changed, how they've lived out their lives differently because of being part of this group, and I'll start with a little bit of my own. I want to bring here a testimonial from my wife, Sandra, she says that she doesn't know that we would be together and be married if it wasn't for this group. She no longer needed to take care of all my emotional needs and my deep communication because now I had real friends, and I think that's the case. There's a period where Sandra and I were separated before getting married, actually, but had been living together and then lived separately for four or six months where if I hadn't had this group to be with me, I would have felt like I'd lost my only friend. And as it is, my life is now a table which has multiple legs to stand on, not just one that if it's gone is going to collapse. Any other men have any other experience they care to share? Mark? A profound part of my experience has been, you know, I hate to use, or I'm hesitant to use the word unconditional love, but I don't know how else to talk about my experience with men in this men's group, accepting all of my ups, all my downs, all the shit that I threw at them, all the rejection and distancing that I pushed at them, and to still hold me in a place where I felt I was accepted and even honored even when I was at my ugliest. That has been a profound safety net for me as I've searched for ways to grow. All of my adult life, a major struggle for me, has been severe bouts of depression, and every week, no matter whether I was in the depth of that or if I was feeling centered, the message was the same. That I was honored and accepted the way I was without being paternalistic or saccharine, but just a straight look in the eye. And what I felt was just a very honest statement and feedback from the other that said that I was valued even when I couldn't believe that myself. I guess that's the bottom line. There's so much more richness than that, but that's just always the bottom line that's here in this group for me. That is just profound. It's a huge psychological and comforting safety net for me over the years with these men that I trust, and I trust their opinions that if they can see good in me when I can't, that's a huge help. I think I've come to the point now where I can see good in myself all the time, and I don't believe I'm ever going to lose that again, but that's a new phenomena for me. Namion. I'd like to just follow up on what Mark just said, and I too have suffered over the years at times of depression have been diagnosed as chronic lifelong depression, which would probably surprise people who don't know me well because on the surface, I really do enjoy life quite a bit and project that. It has been so enormously helpful to come to a place where you're not on the clock down to the minute you're not being charged by the hour and exorbitant fee that if you really need one of these men to be there for you, they'll be there any time, night or day. You know they're going to be there for a couple of hours during the meeting. If any particular man is having really strong needs in an evening, the others will pick up on that and accommodate everybody, but try to give extra time to the person who needs it. And the men in here have been so terrific. I went into a severe long term depression about three years ago. I don't know what I would have done, but this was a place that I could come weekend and week out and really be understood, cared about, heard, accepted. And in a firm sense, one of the things I really get out of this group is that these men will tell me it'll last by permission and I'll always grant it for advice and they'll let me know when I'm kind of off base in their opinion. I'm kind of tough love sometime and that's just something you don't really get from your everyday acquaintances and casual friends and your workplace usually. I actually haven't suffered from depression and clinical sense at all, so it's meant for me different needs, but part of what it is is this companion without any agendas going on. You go to a therapist, you know that if you weren't paying money, you wouldn't be going there. When you're in a relationship with your spouse, there's other conditions to the relationships rather than just friendship. And this is a place which is free of those conditions and it means that we're free to be honest. That's part of my experience of this relationship and what I get out of it. Art? I guess for me, the group's been most useful, just in terms of helping me through reflection that goes into the group and comes out of the group, practice feeling, reflecting on my feelings, talking about my feelings, and how I'm able to carry that out of the group and bring that kind of enhanced skill I guess I would call it into my relationships, my relationships with my wife, my children, other friends, even to some degree relationships in my workplace, and bring a layer of feeling and honesty to those groups that really earlier in my life didn't exist in any significant way I don't think, certainly not in any productive or healthy way. And that's still open up all kinds of things for me, including the ability to, well, the increased ability to form more intentional relationships with the people in my life, relationships that look and feel more like the relationships I want them to be. And also more like the relationships I sense others want to have with me. Damien? Again, to kind of follow up on what Art was saying, one of the very valuable things that I get from men's group is how to relate to people, colleagues in the workplace, and to women, especially a love relationship with a partner. If my partner was going to a women's group, I suppose I'd be a little suspicious and have some assumptions about how the discussion would go. And although there's this approval of me as a person, this unconditional approval, it doesn't mean there's approval of everything I do or the way I do it or what I am in a relationship. And I've come in here thinking, well, I'm going to go in and I'm going to tell these guys about, you know, how difficult my partner is or how difficult my boss is, kind of expect some not of the head, yeah, and pat on the back, you're right. And they'll pull me up by my shorts when I deserve it. And, you know, and point out, look, you're not really being fair with her or, you know, that situation looks to us like you're not pulling your weight or doing what you need to do. And it's balanced. They'll also, I think, be very reasonable and insightful about what I do is more understandable, but it's a really nice balance and it's a total acceptance of me as a person with the really dimension of not totally accepting everything I do or the way I do it and the willingness to point that out. Well, that takes me to another question you've already talked about a little bit, Damian. How is this different than other groups, groups that are mixed genders? What's different about your experience here that you don't get elsewhere? Mark? Here there's a culture of cutting to the chase. It's just starting the group and you jump right into the deep water and be real. It's so exciting to be able to avoid the small talk and the, I guess, the camouflage or the smoke signals or all the other attempts to put up a false self to another person and a false disguise. There's just a culture here of really welcoming and honoring authenticity for people to really examine their own shadows. I don't know of any other group where I've experienced men doing a true confession, either with the help of the other men there or just coming into on their own saying, "My God, this is what I've been doing all these years. This is the way I've been limiting myself all these years." And, you know, having that light bulb come on and having the courage to even ask the question and face what that means about how they'd been deluding themselves and other people, and it's been such a gift to see other men grow in that way and feel it in myself. Heart? Maybe I'm saying the same thing. Mark just said, but I would say it maybe a little differently. I don't know. I can walk into the group and say what's on my mind or in my gut without an agenda. I don't sleep with or sign contracts with these men. I have no business dealings with these men. They don't pay me. I don't pay them. They don't supervise me. I don't supervise them. I don't even or rarely even socialize with the men in this group. And so my relationship with them is almost entirely the two hours weekly that I spend with them. And so I really have nothing to lose in the sense that I have another aspect to the relationship that I'm trying to maintain with these men. I really have nothing to lose by simply saying what I feel like saying and allowing them to say to me what they feel like saying to me. Damien? I've worked for over 20 years in an office situation, which in recent years has been at the University of New Nations office. And out of the professional staff, I'm the only male. By that I mean full-time employed adults in the office and there are 11 females. When the work studies students are there, I've got a half-time approximate male and about five to seven additional women who work in the office. And I do enjoy women, but it's a different culture. It's a different environment. And I think that men and women are different and those are different groupings and ways of treating each other. There are just things that women just won't understand, might get offended by, that men just naturally know and accept. And I'm sure it's the same way when women get together with each other. So it's just really helpful to have a group of men to go be with. And that just sit around and talk hunting fishing sports, but be with a real deeper kind of a way, even though we do have some fun in here and relate. It's a serious kind of an endeavor. I love my 12-step work and that's very important to me spiritually. It gets me thinking and concentrating on a regular basis about listening to my inner self, my best self, treating people in the world in a respectful way. And that is a group of women and men and it's mixed and it's very valuable. And that also is fun, but it's very serious. And people bring their very serious life issues to a really intimate and trusting and sharing format in that group as well. But there's just a real value being with a group of men who just understand and I know that they'll understand. Mark, I want to point out that this is definitely a secular group. There are certainly other groups out there like promise keepers that have a more conventionally church base that we're definitely not a part of. One group I feel akin to is the mankind project and people can visit that on the internet by going to mankindproject.org. And there's a big chunk of information there and a lot of the processing that that organization does would be similar to the kind of processing that we do. And so that might be a place where people could go to get kind of general information about this kind of men's processing. Of course men are free to join us at the Clearwater Men's Council. You can do that most easily probably by calling either myself Mark helps meet or Mark Ruddy. We meet at Mark Ruddy's home typically for the moment. My phone number here in the 715 area code is 8746646. And Mark Ruddy's phone number is 8397949. Men are free to show up anytime that they want to. They don't need prior approval. But if you check with us it's sometimes helpful just to have good directions and know who will be there. There is at least one other men's group in the Eau Claire area that's active. It's a group of men that I think I know most of them and they would have been part of Clearwater Men's Council in the past. And they've chosen to form their own group. That's a closed group that you can only get into by invitation. We've decided to present our the ongoing Clearwater Men's Council group in a different way. Which is clearly open to anybody who wants to come. Confidentiality is a huge issue and we make that known to new people. So we're very open to new people. And actually we would enjoy new people because we find that when there is a larger group of people there's a different kind of energy. And there'd be the opening for smaller groups for it to break into and each smaller group can have its own personality and meet different needs. I definitely encourage anyone who's interested at all to give one of us a call or to just to stop in and be a part of our group. I have a feeling that some people might think that a men's group by its sheer level of testosterone would be anti-woman. Is that your experience? Any of the men here? Damian? I think part of what I was trying to say earlier talking about how when I'm having controversy within my relationship with my female partner and I come to men's group. That the men are often pointing out if they feel that my partner, the female is correct or I'm not being fair. They really help steer me back on track and will often take that person's point of view. It's not at all about bashing women behind their back or anything like that. On the contrary it's very supportive I think of our relationships with people in general, with the world we live in and yes with women. Art? My experience is similar to Damian's in the sense that my involvement in the group I think has enhanced my relationships with my wife and other women in my life rather than anything negative. I would take it to another level, sort of a, maybe a theory level if you can tolerate that for a minute. I've heard from some women and I've read in some of the literature on gender issues and so on that just the existence of a men's group, men in groups is in and of itself sort of anti-female in the sense that rather than our sitting around processing our feelings and helping each other solve our problems, we should be out doing sort of pro-feminist work, working with other men to prevent violence against women and so on. I don't disagree with that but I think that that devalues and underestimates what goes on in a group like this. I think to the extent that a group like this helps men, individual men and groups of men to move a bit away from the man label and a bit closer to the human label, that's a huge help to society as a whole. My experience to this group is that if more men were involved in these kinds of conversations in their lives with other men, the kinds of activities that some women would rather see us doing I think would come to fruition through this process. And then, and then those men and women will be gentle and then, and then both women and then will be strong and then all will be so very rich and free, and everywhere will be. All women once again and then, and then both men and women will be gentle and then, and then both women and then will be strong and then all will be so very rich and free, and everywhere will be. All women once again. Mark. Art's statement makes me come back to a quote from Gandhi. He says, "The only devils in the world are those running around in our own hearts. That is where the battle must be fought." That really, in a nutshell, says what I think this men's group is about. For me personally, I've had two devils in my heart. The basic one was that I didn't love myself, and this group has helped me come to the point where I now do totally love and accept myself just the way I am, and if that's not good enough for you, it's not my problem. And the second thing I've learned, which is related to that first, is how much anger I've had built up in me all of my life, mainly anger and myself for not being good enough. But that anger has been allowed to leak out in a thousand different places and a thousand different relationships. I've learned a way to give up the significant portion of that anger. Damien. Mark expressed very eloquently some of the things that I was feeling, and basically that any situation that helps me get centered to be a better person, and that, for me, also deals with my own devils, my own anger, my own self-dislike, my lack of confidence, those kinds of things. And the more of a handle I can get on that, the better man I'll be, and the better person I'll be when I'm with a women partner or otherwise. And I've been thinking about the spirituality question. Spirituality, I think, is just something that for me I feel. There are just times and moments when I feel it, and I know it can happen out in a beautiful natural spot. I know it when I can just really connect in a true, just kind of a special transcending way in a relationship, usually related to loving action. Just trueness, trueness with the really universal harmony of the world we live in, the people and the environment and everything. Mans Group really helps me come to that trueness. Finally, I want to ask the men here, if more men did men's group, if more men had this kind of male mentoring and friendship and listening ears, reflection, support, challenging in their life, how would it change the world from your point of view? The New Warriors Weekend, now called the Mankind Project, they started out because they were brainstorming ways to limit the threat of nuclear war in the world. From the men who sit here, how would the world be different if more men had the experience we have in Mans Group? Mark? Far less energy would be used to what I call recreating the wheel. There's so much wisdom that experienced men can pass on to men who haven't had experiences yet or younger men who are filled with questions about how to handle all parts of themselves and in general getting through life. There's so much information to be gifted to other men to help them come up to speed, to be honest. I like the statement that love is the opposite of fear. Love is letting go of fear. There are so many fears that men will be able to release when they understand themselves and accept themselves and then get to the point of putting energy into love, and that is the only way to peace. Damien? I always love to follow Mark's words of wisdom. I was just thinking, what if Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Abrahamson, Delay, people like that? What about the people sending us to war who have never served themselves? What about a Congress where only one out of the entire Congress has a son or a daughter serving in this war that they are waging? If those people would come to a more spiritual and I think a superior understanding of their manhood, if a world and men could be released from those fears that Mark was talking about, if we could relate to our environment and to each other in that way, what a fantastically improved world this would be? A corollary to that, I think, is what if more men did more of this earlier in their lives? What if instead of a bunch of 40, 50, and 60-year-olds sitting in this living room, we were sitting with a bunch of 20-year-olds, a bunch of 16-year-olds, answering their questions, not based on any kind of expertise we have, but just our own life experience and what we've struggled so hard to learn over the years. What if, instead of starting to have a more intentional relationship with my son and my nephews, for example, now that they're in their 20s, what if I was able to have done that when they were three and four years old and do that a little better? How would that have impacted their lives? My issue is not so much trying to fix what is probably beyond fixable, but trying to maybe help another generation of men or boys to become good men, good for themselves and good for the people around them. Damien? Er, reminded me of a very important thing in my life. For seven years, I had my nephew living with me, and I was a single bachelor parent, all of a sudden, the support and the help that I had from this group in that process, what I could bring back to Terry, who has turned out to be just a wonderful young man. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Yeah, goals of childhood with survivalists ♪ ♪ Cold wind beating out of the past ♪ ♪ Paging your throat my full silence ♪ ♪ Cold and I will stand fast ♪ ♪ In the darkness your guardians had left you ♪ ♪ Cold wind beating out of the past ♪ ♪ On to hear your cries none to defend you ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Hold on I will stand fast ♪ ♪ I will stand fast ♪ ♪ I will stand fast ♪ ♪ You are saved in the daylight at last ♪ ♪ night near and near ♪ ♪ There have no power here ♪ ♪ I will stand fast ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ I will listen to the terrors that tried you ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Cold wind beating out of the past ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ I will create all the child that creates inside you ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Hold on I will stand fast ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ When you take the shape of a hundred ancient horrors ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Cold wind beating out of the past ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ You strike at me and the plea into your sorrow ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Hold on I will stand fast ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ I will stand fast ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ I will stand fast ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ You are saved in the daylight at last ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Night near and near ♪ ♪ There have no power here ♪ ♪ ♪ Time is down to us. [Music] [Music] Word splash upon a branch in winter. Cold wind beating out of the past. I see the sun begins to splinter. Oh, that I will stand fast. You will walk with no feathers to find you. Cold wind beating out of the past. Oh, the love you have wanted will find you. Oh, I will stand fast. I will stand fast. I will stand fast. You are safe in the daylight at last. Nightmare and fear, they have no problem here. I will stand fast. I will stand fast. I want to thank you men for taking the time to be with me here tonight. Actually, I want to thank you for being part of this men's group, which I've had the experience of for 15 years now. Since I was in my mid-30s, I want to thank you for how you're changing the world through your example and through the way you live out your relationships both here and when you step outside these doors. Thank you to Art, to Mark, to Damien, to John. This is Spirit in Action. You've been listening to an interview with five men of the Clearwater Men's Council. The group meets every Thursday at 7pm at 1016 Dodge Street in Eau Claire at the home of Mark Ruddy. You may call him at 715-839-7949 for more information about the group. For a very good example of men's group work, look at mankindproject.org. Some members of Clearwater Men's Council have been part of the New Warrior Adventure Training, sponsored by the Mankind Project. So there's significant overlap in the outlook and approach of these two groups. Music featured on this program includes Every Man by Fred Small, Buddies by Peter Alsop, Eden Once Again by Rabbi Marsha Prager, and I Will Stand Fast by Fred Small. You can hear this program again or find notes about the program on my website, northernspiritradio.org. The theme music for Spirit in Action is "I Have No Hands but Yours" by Carol Johnson. Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeat@usa.net. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. I have no higher call for you than this. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy selflessness. Music
A visit with 5 men of the men's group, The Clearwater Men's Council. The group has been meeting in Eau Claire since 1990, changing the lives of hundreds of men over that time.