Spirit in Action

Eau Claire Action Network

Virginia Wolf is active in the effort of FairWisconsin to defeat the proposed constitutional amendment to narrowly define marital status and rights in Wisconsin. Virginia is a Unitarian Universalist minister in Eau Claire, and about 30 years into her partnership and marriage with another woman.

Duration:: 1h 0m
Broadcast on:: 08 Oct 2006
Audio Format:: mp3

I have no hands but yours to tend my sheep No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep I have no arms but yours with which to hold The ones grown weary from the struggle and weak from growing old I have no hands but yours with which to see To let my children know that I am up and love is everything I have no way to feed the hungry souls No clothes to give and make, give the ragged and the morn So be my heart, my hand, my tongue Through you I'll let be done The enders have I none to help I'm done The tangled knocks and twisted chains The strangle fearful minds Welcome to Spirit in Action, my name is Mark Helpsmeat Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion Creative action and progressive efforts I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service Above all, I'll seek out light, love and helping hands being shared between our many neighbors on this planet Hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life I have no way to open people's eyes Except that you will show them how to trust the inner mind My guest today on Spirit in Action is Virginia Woolf Virginia is the minister at the local Unitarian Universalist congregation here in Eau Claire She's been serving there for seven years She spent 25 years as a professor of English at the University of Wisconsin at Stout And this past year she's got involved with Fair Wisconsin Opposing the constitutional amendment which has been proposed to restrict marriage within Wisconsin Virginia, welcome to Spirit in Action Thank you, I'm very glad to be here So Virginia, tell me about this constitutional amendment What its impact would be if it were passed in November and what your group is working to do The impact of this amendment would be twofold One, it's very harmful to many families here in Wisconsin There are many same-sex led families here in the state They would be affected in, well, I think they're prohibited from about 1400 rights Because they're not able to get married I can speak at length later about how in particular specific people I know have been harmed But the first thing that would be bad about this constitutional amendment is that it would hurt real Wisconsin families And secondly, this amendment really goes too far Whereas the first part of it would ban same-sex marriage The second part would prohibit any legal protections comparable to marriage For unmarried couples, be they heterosexual or homosexual This, well, in 11 states it's become legal It's passed, the constitutional amendment And now, in those states such as Ohio and Michigan and Utah Lawyers are arguing that domestic partnerships are no longer legal And that domestic abuse laws will no longer apply where there are unmarried couples For the most part, this has really affected heterosexual couples So that restraining orders are no longer in effect And if you have healthcare benefits through your corporation, those are being challenged So it's quite a far-reaching proposal that we have One that the federal government tried to get passed and they abandoned Because they felt that it was too far-reaching And have changed, but in our state we are going with that sort of original language That is very far-reaching What is the text of the amendment which is being proposed? The amendment reads as follows, the proposed amendment Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in the state A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage For unmarried individuals is not valid or recognized in this state You got involved in organizing this some time ago Aren't you the key person who was first contacted here in the Chippewa Valley To get things organized here to oppose this amendment? Yes it was, I think it's because Carolyn and I both applied for a marriage license last year And were refused and so were known by the Fair Wisconsin people Also were involved in an ACLU suit for domestic partnerships for state employees So we've been known for a long time to the people at Fair Wisconsin And there have been a couple of articles I think in the local paper about us And so we were I think kind of logical people for them to tap Who's involved in the local group? Well we started off our meetings with people who were interested in being trained to be speakers against this amendment And we have in fact a speakers bureau available here in the Eau Claire area So that if anybody is interested in having a speaker come and talk about this amendment And what its effects would be they can contact me and I'll put them in charge or in touch with somebody We began that way but then we evolved into what's called the Eau Claire Action Network of Fair Wisconsin And we're doing a lot of things One of the things we're doing is monitoring the media because of course We want to make sure that if something is said it's accurate And so if we hear an inaccuracy we've poured it to the state and then they try to get a response in the media We're also leafletting and we're going to be going door to door I think May 20th is our big effort to try to register voters So we're trying to go out and go door to door and talk to people One of the things that we've found is that many people don't know anything about this amendment It's like it's under the radar And so all of the sudden they find out It's been interesting one of our people who has been going door to door has spoken a lot with seniors And of course there are many seniors who are living together and not married because of pension issues So if they get married they are going to lose their former spouse's pension And to think that now that laws might not cover them because they're not legally married So it's an issue for seniors and as well as for anyone else who's For whatever reasons has chosen not to be married but to be in a long-term partnership We're also having house parties at which we're educating and coffees at which we're educating So those would be kind of fun and we're trying to have a presence at local events Like the things that happen in the parks and so forth Mostly we just want people to know about this so that they're not just voting without thinking about it Or without knowing what the ramifications might be And who are the other people who are involved? Are these being drawn from just individuals or are there organizations, churches involved in this? There are individuals from all over who have perhaps a gay or lesbian relative Or perhaps the individuals are gay or lesbian But there are many many heterosexual people who are coming and some of them are coming from faith-based organizations Churches in other words United Church of Christ is outspoken in its opposition to this amendment The United Methodists have also been There's some division in some of the other churches but I think still some strong support from Lutheran churches here in town too I think the amazing thing is that there are so many people because I think probably over the course of the time that we've been meeting We've had about 150 people and they just come from everywhere You know people have found out about the amendment and are interested in working to be sure that we don't get one You mentioned there were some maybe 1400 different rights that would be denied to people who would no longer qualify under this amendment What kind of rights are we talking about? How would these affect people's lives in reality? There are so many of these rights I suppose the one that we all think of first is health care of courses You can't have health care If you are employed and your colleague has family coverage you can't have family coverage because you're not allowed to get married Part of the difficulty here of course for us is the language because many people think of marriage as a religious sacrament I'm really talking about civil marriage If churches want to continue not to marry same-sex people that's their choice I'm really not trying to change that So a marriage that's like a contract and that's not available so you can't provide protections for your family I know women whose partners are ill and in serious need of health care and can't work And the one woman in the relationship has a great job and great health care benefits and can't do anything for her partner That of course becomes a draining thing as much of their income as going to trying to treat the illness and get the person well Or their children, I mean many people may not believe that lesbians and gays should be parents but they are That's a flat fact many of us have children and in fact the research shows that our children grow up to be Pretty much on par with their sexual children so in fact most of them become heterosexual because most people do become heterosexual But in any case you can't provide protection for your children The whole issue of children in fact is such a complicated one and Carol and I are now past that because our two kids are adults But when they were at home you know we had to make special well first we didn't make special arrangements And so my son broke his arm right and Carol took him to the hospital and he needed an operation and they wouldn't treat him Because she wasn't the parent so they had to track me down I was out of town I was at a conference And so my son was in some pain much longer than he needed to be until they could finally contact me Has she been legally his other mother would not have been an issue We did correct that by putting something on file at both hospitals so that it never happened again But it did happen that once or at school the same thing goes on you know I mean you're not illegal parents So you can't go to parent teacher conferences or have the same kind of official role that a legal parent would have So we ran into those sort of issues We personally are more concerned at this stage in our life about end-of-life kinds of things What happens if I am unconscious and ill in the hospital? We have done everything we can as far as legal protections that are available to us But you have to have that piece of paper in your hand that says that you have legal power for health care And our financial decisions as well I one time had an accident and we were on a beach So we had bathing suits well guess what we didn't have our papers with us Fortunately the people who took me to the hospital night was a near drowning experience And so the people who took me to the hospital were relatives of Carols So they knew you know and they let her go with me and be with me and so forth But that might not have happened and the other issue is a visitation in the hospital While most of the time if you say this is my partner people will treat you with fairness if you're unhealthy and so forth But they don't have to whereas a spouse would be automatically able to enter an examination room Or be with you while you were in poor health or in a crisis situation It really depends to some extent on the courtesy of the people who happen to be there And I one time had a bad experience here in Eau Claire when I thought I was having a heart attack And of course who did I want by my side more than anybody in the whole world so that I could feel somewhat calm About what was happening to me but my partner and the nurse who was treating me wouldn't let her be with me I was so agitated and you know raised such a fit and she was so worried about my health that eventually she did let her come in But that shouldn't happen that sort of thing shouldn't happen I also think about things like and this of course is not going to be helped by the state This is a federal issue but there are social security for the children won't go Won't happen if it's the non-biological person Like if for example if something would have happened to Carol when the children were young and they would have gotten social security benefits Had she been a father and have been legally married that would not happen Or disability benefits the same thing would be true One of the things I just found out that really I have to do something about now is What happens if I have to go to a nursing home? We own our house together if we were a married couple they could take the house you know the value of the house But they couldn't evict Carol until she could stay there till she died Well that isn't the way it's going to be for us She would be considered the half owner of the house and they could force her to sell the house to recover my half to pay for my nursing care So these are I mean these are just all the things that we don't think about the way in which you know If you get married you can protect your partner and your family you know your children And the other thing I have to say is we spend a lot of money on wills and legal power of this and legal power of that That most people don't have to spend because you know they just automatically have it because they're married So that's another issue. It's just an unfair thing Does that answer your question? I could go on I mean there are other things too Let me say just one more thing that is really very troublesome and I know a couple here in Eau Claire Who have just adopted two little boys? One of them adopted the two little boys because only one person can adopt They can't both adopt now in Minnesota they've changed that so I have two friends there who have a little girl Actually, one of the women was artificially inseminated so that they raised this girl since she was a baby She's 18 now they were allowed to both adopt And that was one of those situations too where one of them had a great job and great health care benefits And the other one didn't and the one that had the benefits did in fact get health care coverage for her daughter But of course not for her partner but they did finally they are now both legally the parents of Emily How does that come about? Is Minnesota State law changed to permit that or how did they both become parents? Minnesota law has changed one woman is the biological mother and the other woman is the adopted mother They're an allowing now in Minnesota and also in California You shouldn't be too surprised I suppose but that's where it started in fact a judge a lesbian judge First sued for the right to adopt her partner's biological child And it went through there and now it's gone through Minnesota too You were talking about the legal implications of this constitutional amendment I'm sure that there's implications in terms of the mindset of people in the state You mentioned a nurse who was not allowing Carol in to visit you I'm assuming some of the implications are just going to be in terms of the personal climate that you'll experience And the emotional and mental anguish The one thing that really bugs me especially the older I get is that when people think about gay and lesbian couples they think about sex It's really not about sex it's about family And I think that's really what this whole thing is about I mean there are so many ways in which people don't realize they just make assumptions Well we have a lot of friends who just assume we have healthcare coverage for the other Because they know us as a couple and they don't even think about the fact that we can't get healthcare one for the other People that don't know gay and lesbian couples And Carol and I have been together for 30 years Essentially we're married, we were married in our church 15 years ago They don't think like when they give an invitation, when people give invitations to parties They say bring your wife or husband, right? Why not bring your spouse or bring your partner? It's just this sort of oblivion about this whole group of people, 10% of the population they say I would guess, given the number of people I know who are gay and lesbian in this area That's probably a fair percentage Here we are and many of us are living in long-term relationships And it's sort of like we don't exist or people don't ever think about us Or they don't even think about the ways in which just little ordinary things When I took a new job at Stout one time my boss asked me What does your husband do? Just this sort of automatic assumption And you know I seem like a normal healthy female so I think I am a normal healthy female So why not just what does your spouse do? Carol has pictures of our kids and grandkids at work But people they don't of course anymore After all these years they all know that they're her kids and her grandkids But you know for a long time that wasn't the case And you know so people would come in and they would say oh who are these? You know every single time she would have to explain Most people I do this don't you? I go to the dentist office I see my dental hygienist and she's got pictures of her kids and her husband You know and I say oh is that your family? That hasn't happened to us But I think the big point of this whole thing is for people to start thinking about us as families Because that's what we are. Families with kids, grandkids, homes, mortgages We're both you and Carol married before in heterosexual relationships Is that where your kids came from or did you adopt and how did that work out? Carol has never been married. I was married for nine years and the children are mine biologically But we've been together since David was four and Nina was eight and a half You know they're now 35 and 40 so Carol has parented them all these years And has been a steady part of their lives and now is a steady part of their children's lives And so they really are her kids in the same way that would happen in any kind of step-parent situation (Music) For all of the earth Child of God Just one among the family And you can count on me to share the Lord And I will always help you hold your burdens And I will be the one to help you ease your pain (Music) We know me, I am your sister Believe on me, I am your friend Be known me, I am your sister Believe on me, I am your friend I will fold you in my arms like a white wing The love shining your soul Your spirit is crying, spirit is crying (Music) One of the earth Child of God Just one among the family And you can count on me to share the Lord And I will always help you hold your burdens And I will be the one to help you ease your pain (Music) Be known me, I am your sister Believe on me, I am your friend Believe on me, I am your sister Believe on me, I am your friend Believe on me, I am your sister Believe on me, I am your friend Believe on me, I am your sister Believe on me, I am your friend I am your friend (Music) Sometimes I'm kind of amazed at the backwardness of people fighting against gay marriage As I recall, one of the issues that I was told about when I was just young And I didn't even know about homosexuality, but I heard this word "queers" Was that the danger with queers is that they want to have sex with everyone And they're going to grab you and pull you into some room And they're going to have sex with you And that marriage is actually saying, "No, I want to commit, I want to be in a relationship, I want to be stable" Why is it that you think that so many people are afraid of homosexuals being in stable relationships? I don't know if they're afraid of homosexuals being in stable relationships I think the weird thing about this is that you would think that people would want this That they would want for everyone, no matter what their sexual orientation To be able to find someone with whom they can spend a life and make a home And raise children and be contributing members to society And not be some fringe, crazy group Which is the way I think most people think about gays and lesbians Because of what they see in the newspaper and on TV It doesn't make any sense to me why people wouldn't want this I think it must be some kind of a hang up about the way things have always been Something, you know, that their marriage has always been considered to be between one man and one woman Although of course it's not always been that way In fact, polygamy for years was a standard form of marriage I mean even in the Bible there are many, many examples of polygamy starting with Abraham But I think it must be and maybe the whole notion that marriage is a sacrament Quite frankly, I think it is a sacrament But, you know, I might not be so upset about offering it to same-sex couples But I'm not upset at all about doing that I have been doing services of union for a long, long time But of course I can't sign a marriage license for those couples The thing that really disturbs me about this is that this is a way to normalize gay and lesbian relationships So that individuals in those relationships don't feel marginalized or weirdized That's not a word, but it is an English professor But I mean, I think sometimes that being pushed aside or under the radar or ignored or thought of as being weird and crazy or just wildly sexual beings or something It encourages people to be that way, I think You know, if the society thinks about them in that way I think if we thought about them in different ways, if we thought about that couples could be formed and marriages and families and so forth were possible and so forth We'd have people who were just healthier as a result of being thought of as okay Whereas now that's not the case at all I think a lot of changes have happened since 1969, I think that we are more and more healthy as a people But you know, you have to fight the society with every ounce of your being You have to get rid of your own internalized homophobia that you've inherited from your society Before you can start to grow your health This would be a way, but of course I know that many people don't want to normalize homosexual relationships, you know, because they've been taught by their church that homosexuality is a sin and we're going to go to hell and so forth Well, speaking of hell, I have definitely heard from a lot of people who think that it's anti-biblical to have same-sex relationships And I've read passages in Leviticus that definitely oppose that Of course there's passages in Leviticus opposing just about everything and some of the most trivial things, but how do you deal with it theologically? How do you deal with the fact that people, particularly if they consider themselves Christian, say the Bible is just opposed to this, it's wrong Well, you know, the whole thing about biblical interpretation is an interesting one Which Bible? There are many, many translations Are the words really translated correctly? I mean, there wasn't a word for homosexuality, that's a modern word So to say that homosexual marriage is labeled a sin and by the Bible is to do a lot of interpreting because there was no such thing as, there wasn't a concept of homosexuality There wasn't a concept of homosexual lifestyle, whatever in the world that is Those are all modern terms Especially Leviticus, the Leviticus ones There are so many scholars who pointed out that in particular those references are to rape than they're to inhospitality because, I mean, these are God's angels, right? That are sent to Sodom and the men of Sodom come out and say, let us know them, right? That would be a horrible thing by Middle Eastern morality of the time, a horrible breach of hospitality Which is one of the central and crucial values for survival during that time Because if you're traveling in the desert and somebody wouldn't take you in and keep you safe You'd be in bad trouble, so... And it's a whole gang of men So we're not talking about a loving relationship between two individuals of the same gender We're talking about a rape, a violent thing And of course, some of the references are to prostitution, homosexual prostitution Which was common in the time You know, I'm not particularly in favor of prostitution either, whether it's same sex or heterosexual So I think some of it has to do with reading the interpretation of the Bible What language you actually see there, what the context has to tell us about what those passages mean I always find the more troublesome passages to be the ones in Paul Again, I've been told, I've read, that those have to do with prostitution to her They have to do with relationships outside of marriage, perhaps probably by people who are already married So it's a whole different historical context from what we have today And I think that one of the things that has happened over the centuries Is that we have grown enough, in terms of gay liberation, that we no longer buy into some of the stereotypes That have come down to us historically, so we're really talking about a whole different situation We're talking about people who are steady, respectable citizens of the community Wanting to have a loving relationship with a person of the same sex Probably because that's what their natural proclivity is And we do know that there has always been homosexuality And even in the animal world, there's almost sexualities So, you know, God made us this way, so we shouldn't live this way I've heard it denied that anyone could be born gay or lesbian I think that the standard view used to be that it was a medical psychological aberration Something bad in your life that turned you to the dark side or something, I don't know What about your own experience? You were in a heterosexual marriage Was this something that changed in you, or were you finding your roots? Were you uncovering what was natural for you, or what do you think happened in your case? I think this is an enormously complicated question You know, I can only offer an opinion, and I can speak from my personal experience The way I see it is that I think people are born on a continuum from homosexual to heterosexual And some people are really profoundly homosexual at birth And they know from the time they're very small that they don't fit the heterosexual gender patterns And it's a struggle for them, and in fact, my partner has told me that that's what she believes is true for her That she's just never really had any heterosexual leanings at all I actually had my first profound relationship with a woman, I was 19 years old It was not a good time, it was 1959, and the dean told us that if we saw each other, because we were found out If we saw each other during our senior year, we'd be expelled, and so we didn't We're also both heavily encouraged to enter counseling to get fixed So I did years of counseling, and then psychoanalysis at the meningers and so forth And I thought I was fixed, and I got married And I guess I wasn't Although, you know, I mean, for me, it was profoundly an experience of affectional orientation If that makes any sense to you, I just, affectionately, I find myself drawn to other women It's an emotional thing as much for me as it is anything else Interestingly enough, I've had lots of good male friends, so it isn't a question of not liking men But it's just a question of having different needs in those relationships So that I'm much more likely to enjoy intellectual conversation and debate And that sort of thing with men than I am with women And with women, I'm much more likely to get my emotional needs met I want to come back to the religious viewpoint on this, the religious pro and con The United States, most people here at this point, come out of a Christian and a Judaic Christian background Our attitudes towards homosexuality, the same in non-Christian, non-Jewish countries of the world Do Buddhists and Shintos and Confusions all have attitudes against lesbians and is marriage everywhere in the world to find as one man, one woman? No, it isn't actually Great Britain and the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Canada, and South Africa, marriage Actually, I think it is real, I could be wrong about that But there's more tolerance, I think, of gay relationships Of course, not among conservative Jews or Orthodox Jews, but among Reformed Jews The Buddhists, I think probably in Asian countries, I really don't know, but I would suspect that homosexuality is not socially widely accepted But I don't really know, I do know that not too surprisingly, if you're a number of lesbian and gay people in India And there are a number of films now, quite wonderful films, and there is a movement for acceptance So, I think worldwide, there's just greater and greater openness and acceptance Although, that's probably more the western world than it is, the eastern world I really don't know what the facts are, I'd have to study it Actually, I did a paper one time on homosexuality in the world's religions And I found that, well, there are some things that have been written about that and some research that's been done on it And I found that there is growing acceptance almost everywhere over the last century I don't know exactly what this means or why this has happened, I can talk more about how it's happened in the United States than elsewhere in the world I thought I had read somewhere that in Native American practice, I'm not sure which tribes, that there was an accepted role of homosexuality, at least at certain points in life More than one, I think actually, but you know, the interesting thing about a lot of Native American tribes is that the gender roles were so numerous, they didn't just have two, you know, male, female, but they accepted a wide range of gender roles Like, there was a role for what we would call a transvestite today I mean, there's just many, many different gender roles that were just perfectly accepted Women who could dress like men and yet behave like women most of the time And women who could dress like men and have a woman as a lover and so forth And the interesting thing about this whole phenomenon is that in some of the nations, they had a role I can't remember the names now, but they were like two spirited people These were people who were homosexual and who maybe dressed and functioned opposite the actual genitalia Not in accordance with that particular role, so if they were men, they were dressed and acted like women But they were considered wiser for their double identity, their double gender identity They were often religious leaders, shaman It was thought that because they combined both the male and the female They had greater access to the spirit world It's an interesting kind of thing, there's a lot of interesting literature out there about homosexuality throughout the world and how it's been accepted That one seems one of the wiser ones to me, no bias in my part I turned 18 in 1972 and there was a major change going on in our society at that time Divorce became not horrendous You could have marriage, mixed marriages And I'm not referring to races, I'm talking about the fact that my father, a Catholic, married a Lutheran woman Where that had been an abhorrent, maybe ten years earlier, he was able to do that in the 1960s The other thing that became acceptable, or just taken for granted in the course of the 1970s, was living together That is to say, not being married And I've heard a lot of people argue passionately why one should not get married What's your thought about what the purpose or importance of marriage is? You've been talking about civil marriage and you're also talking about the sacred act of marriage What, from your point of view, is why you and Carol are married We got married because we wish to affirm ourselves as a family in our community, in our religious community And to our friends and other people who knew us outside of the church That was our most important reason for wanting to get married was to affirm our relationship Publicly, it had been affirmed for fifteen years before that privately For both of us, it was a commitment to a lifelong relationship I think in the early years, as we struggled to sort of deal with our own sexual orientation And to deal with the world and to deal with having a family and all that There was always some question that it might not last But I think we had matured enough that we were ready to make that lifelong commitment It was important for us to do that I also think that it was a sacred event because it occurred in a church It occurred in the presence of the holy, in the words and language And so forth of the service, it affirmed our connection to one another and to the community And to the world and to the divine And that was important for us That's one kind of marriage and I think it's really too bad When that's not available to people in traditional Christian churches I believe the UCC does do civil unions And I'm not sure the United Methodist does or not But I think there are other churches that do the same thing That the Unitarian Universalists have been doing since I actually I think they tried to track down the earliest ceremony of this kind And it went back into the late 60s, so we've been doing this for a long time So officially it was the 80s before the denomination as a whole took a stand But that's one kind of marriage And I would have a hard time not having that kind of marriage But I don't have to worry about it because I had it already So I'm really talking about a different kind of marriage which is civil marriage Which is just a contract that affirms to the government, if you like, really That we are a couple and that we should have protections that couples and families are given And I know a lot of people, I had this happen to me when I gave a speech about this At our regional UU conference just recently One of the women said, "My partner and I are not going to get married" And then another person in the room said, "We're not going to ever get married either" And then, you know, it's that situation where they were married before They have property independently If they get married, who gets the property? Do his kids get her property? Well, she doesn't want that to happen, she wants her kids to get her property And the same thing is true for him, so they've decided just to live in a long-term relationship For one thing, you know, one of the problems when you go to the hospital And you want to be with your partner You know, if you're a man and a woman, you can just say this is my husband, right? Nobody's going to challenge that at all But if it's two women or two men, well, they might challenge it You know, I can understand why some people are not interested in civil marriage But that doesn't mean that people who could really profit from the protections of it Shouldn't have it, which is what we don't have I want to ask you a question, this may seem like a challenge, but it's actually just looking for clarification There are reasons to see differences in the world For instance, there is a significance between having a partner who's 12 years old when you're 25 years old There's a reason to see a difference there There's a reason to see a difference between, let's say, one person who's a therapist Who then chooses to have a relationship with a client who's under his sway, under his control So there's plenty of reasons to see differences What are the important differences as regards to this situation of marriage? Is there a reason that it should be one man, one woman, one man, five women Five men with five women getting married? Is there a reason to see any of these differences? And what are the implications? I don't know, religiously, psychologically, physically, legally There's awfully big questions out there I'm not comfortable with just saying, well, everybody's the same and so we don't see any differences But we do need to see some differences There's a French phrase, "viva la diferentes" Remember the difference between men and women, long with it Is that a difference that is important in terms of relationships? What is a good reason to encourage or to not encourage a relationship? Well, I think that we're talking about consenting adults That's one of the things that I would say right off the bat And the other thing is that for me, and who's going to judge this except the individuals involved? It's got to be a loving relationship, a supportive relationship I mean, if I think about my own understanding of what marriage is from my own experience It's making a safe haven for one another Being there for your partner, being there to support no matter what the circumstances might be It's making a "we" a strong place where the two of you can be one facing the world I can't imagine it being more than two individuals for myself, quite frankly Just because I can't imagine how you have that kind of energy and that kind of emotional strength And wherewithal to maintain a really truly intimate relationship with more than one other person But I see this is a place where my relationship is a place where I can be completely vulnerable and completely myself and be accepted and loved So, Virginia, what would be the implications of this vote when it comes up if it passes? I'm not sure exactly what passing means Does that mean that something else happens after that or does it become law right away? It's already been through the legislature twice, so it was passed last year And it's been passed this year by both the assembly and the senate So now it goes through the voters And I think it's a two-thirds majority and then it becomes part of the Constitution I'm not sure about the precise number and it will be law And the other thing is undoubtedly it will be challenged I mean, in all these states it's been challenged It's going to keep being challenged as being unconstitutional Because essentially what we're talking about is abridging people's rights And a Constitution doesn't generally do that, it gives rights, but it doesn't abridge What in your personal foundation is the most important reason, I guess, theologically or spiritually For you to take a stand about this amendment I mean, I know you have a personal investment, obviously But what in your spiritual makeup makes it really important to defeat this amendment? Well, I come from the Unitarian Universalist tradition And one of our first principles is the inherent worth and dignity of every person It seems to me that if you believe in the inherent worth and dignity of every person That would be a people who have a different sexual orientation than most And that's been the stand of the Unitarian Universalist for a long, long time The other thing is, I remember in seminary not necessarily the Unitarian Universalist students But Christian students talking about what does it mean when Jesus said, "Who is my neighbor?" In fact, there's a book written about that The homosexual is surely my neighbor as well as the poor and anybody actually, any human being I guess my neighbor, and if you love your neighbor as yourself, then it seems to me That's another reason why this would be important to us I mean, it's a kind of public affirmation in a way if we were allowed to marry That we're human beings and that we have rights like everyone else And so that makes it really important to me too Also, I believe that our best understanding of God is the statement "God is love" And if that's true, then it seems to me that all of the hatred that I experience from some Christian groups is surely in violation of what the New Testament teaches us Even if you don't believe that homosexuals should be married That doesn't really allow one to hate There's so much fear and hatred and ignorance around this issue I know that my own personal experience has been that when anybody got to know me and Carol as individuals and know our family, they no longer were homophobic You know, I mean, what's to be afraid of? What's to hate? To middle-aged, middle-class? You know, I mean, what's the big deal? So this is one of the things that troubles me a lot We have cleared off the table, the leftovers say Watch the dishes and put them away I have told you a story and tucked you in tight At the end of your knockabout day As the moon sets its sails to carry you to sleep Over the midnight sea I will sing you a song no one sang to me May it keep you good company You can be anybody you want to be You can love whomever you will You can travel any country You can travel any country where your heart leads And know I will love you still You can live by yourself You can live by yourself You can gather friends around You can choose one, the special one And the only measure And the only measure of your words and your deeds Will be the love you leave behind when you're done There are girls who grow up strong and bold There are boys, quiet and tired Some race on the hill Some follow behind Some go in their own way and time Some women love women Some men love men Some raise children Some never do You can dream all the day Never reaching the ends Of everything possible for you Don't be rattled by names By talks, by games But seek out spirits true If you give your friends The best part of yourself They will give the same back to you You can be anybody you want to be You can love whomever you will Sing it with us You can travel any country where your heart needs And know I will love you still You can live by yourself You can gather friends around You can choose one, the special one And the only measure of your words and your deeds Will be the love you leave behind when you're done For love you leave behind when you're done I'm sure some of our listeners are going to want to follow up on this Virginia I think that one place they can go is to the fairwisconsin.org They're the folks who are organizing it for the state So just F-A-I-R Wisconsin.org They'll find lots of resources there If people want to work with you, get involved with local group here How would they get a hold of you? They can call the church. It's 834-0690 If they want more information, they can also go to our Unitarian Universalist website Which is uua.org And there's an awful lot about same-sex marriage They were very active in Massachusetts And in fact, several people in that case were in fact Unitarian Universalists So this is something they've been working on for a long, long time I think that there's a service coming up also for people involved in this issue In October, I don't know the date right now, but we'll be publicizing it A group called Christians for Equality, which is very active in this state It's not going to be a service that's going to be more like a forum I believe we have a United Methodist bishop, an Episcopalian bishop And I can't remember what they call them, but it's someone higher up in the UCC The United Church of Christ hierarchy So there'll be people of some standing talking about this amendment There's one more thing I wanted to check with you, Virginia You talked about people being hateful towards gays and lesbians I experienced myself when I spoke publicly opposed to going into war in Afghanistan I got a call the next day, someone said "You tell him he should have gone up with the Twin Towers" That because I thought that there were other alternatives besides going to war that I should be dead Surely you've had some of that kind of venom tossed at you and Carol How have you had the strength to put up with it, to face up to it and not to return hate in kind? I don't know the answer to how I had the strength I mean for one thing, a lot of the people who have protested articles and so forth That I've had in the paper have done so anonymously So it's a little hard to be in dialogue with someone who doesn't sign a letter Give their name when they call and leave a message at the Church So that's a little difficult Personally, I have learned over the years that hating somebody causes me a whole lot more pain than I really want to have It doesn't do me any good, and I have assumed that they don't know any better You know, and that's the reason why they respond to me in that way Some of the worst experiences are being picketed by a Church You know, with things like God hates fags and the wages of sin as hell and things of that sort But I've learned also delightfully to be able to feel perfectly at peace when that's happening Because now we generally do a, we collect money a dollar a minute You can put in a dollar a minute for however long these people stay And so we've collected a kind of substantial amount of money to do things to help young gay teens Or to give to AIDS work or for other gay causes There are ways of not returning hate with hate because actually you only hurt yourself Hatred is a very life-killing kind of emotion Thanks Virginia for taking time today Keep up the good work with Fair Wisconsin and with ECan Eau Claire Action Network When's the next meeting you're going to have? Next Wednesday the 17th, May 17th at 630 at the Unitarian Universalist Congregation 421 South Farwell Thanks again for being here Virginia You're welcome My guest today on Spirit in Action has been Virginia Woolf She's part of the Eau Claire Action Network working with Fair Wisconsin To oppose the proposed constitutional amendment To narrowly define marital status and rights in Wisconsin You can hear this program again via my website northernspiritradio.org And you'll also find additional links on this program and others via my website Music featured in this program has included Sister by Chris Williamson Everything Possible by Fred Small And we're going to finish with a song by Holly Neer called "Singing for Our Lives" [Music] We are gentle and repeatable And we are singing singing for our lives We are gentle and repeatable And we are singing singing for our lives We are a land of many colors We are a land of many colors And we are singing singing for our lives We are singing singing for our lives We are getting straight together We are getting straight together And we are singing singing for our lives We are getting straight together And we are singing singing for our lives We are singing singing for our lives We are gentle and repeatable And we are singing singing for our lives We are gentle and repeatable [Music] The theme music for Spirit in Action is "I Have No Hands But Yours" by Carol Johnson Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeet@usa.net May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. I have no higher call for you than this To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy in selflessness To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy in selflessness [Music] You