Spirit in Action

Cathy Sultan - A Beirut Heart

Cathy Sultan is the author of 2 books about Lebanon and the Middle East. She moved to Beirut with her Lebanese husband in 1969, at the age of 26. Her 14 years there included the first 8 years of the Lebanese civil war. Her first-hand experience with and love of the Middle East, with the Muslims, Jews and Christians of that ravaged land and of the US make her an invaluable resource and inspiration for peace work in that region.

Duration:: 59m
Broadcast on:: 03 Sep 2006
Audio Format:: mp3

I have no hands but yours to tend my sheep No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep I have no arms but yours with which to hold The ones grown weary from the struggle and weak from growing old I have no hands but yours with which to see To let my children know that I am out and out is everything I have no way to feed the hungry souls No clothes to give, and they give, the ragged and the morn So be my heart, my hand, my tongue Through you I will be done Fingers have I none to help undone The tangled knocks and twisted chains The strangled, fearful minds Welcome to Spirit in Action, my name is Mark Helpsmeat Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion Creative action and progressive efforts I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service Above all I'll seek out light, love and helping hands being shared between our many neighbors on this planet Hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life I have no way to open people's eyes Except that you will show them how to trust the inner mind My guest today on Spirit in Action is Kathy Salton Kathy is the author of two books about Lebanon and the Middle East She moved to Beirut with her Lebanese husband in 1969 at the age of 26 Her 14 years there included the first 8 years of the Lebanese Civil War Her first-hand experience with and love of the Middle East with the Muslims, Jews and Christians of that ravaged land Make her an invaluable resource and inspiration for peace in that region Kathy was raised and practiced as Roman Catholic until shortly after her returned to the United States She is part of the National Peace Foundation, author of two books and is much in demand as a commentator on Middle East developments Kathy, welcome to Spirit in Action I can't believe you're able to squeeze me in along with all of the national networks who wanted to interview you My pleasure Mark, thanks for inviting me Your personal experience puts you right in the middle of one of the major issues going on in the world Because you lived in the Middle East for 14 years or so You lived in Beirut, Lebanon Can you tell us about that, what your experience has taught you and what that teaches you about what's going on today I moved to Beirut in 1969 with my Lebanese husband and two small children There were one and two and a half at the time When I got to the Middle East in 1969, Beirut was still the Paris of the Middle East I can remember as I drove along the road from the airport Seeing this encampment, I didn't know what it was at the time I was told later that it was the Palestinian refugees And I knew nothing about this at the time In fact, I really brought my middle class ignorance with me when I moved to Beirut in '69 I had never really left the states except for a few Caribbean vacations But I knew really nothing I left because I wanted to move as far away from my parents as possible I was thinking that my parents were closed-minded and they just couldn't see things the way I did And I wanted to get as far away as possible Fortunately for me, my handsome young Lebanese showed up on the door and I was able to begin my adventure Beirut was very welcoming I think I found my place to grow in Beirut much more so than I had done in my own family home, I'm the oldest of five children I was loved like a Lebanese My mother-in-law and I had major differences But overall, my father-in-law and I got along beautifully As did my sister-in-law and brothers-in-law I went about instantly trying to learn French and Arabic I chose French first because it was the easiest and subsequently picked up what I would best describe as "Kitchen Arabic" Although I'm proud to say 22 years after moving back to the states I still understand every word of Arabic, at least the Lebanese dialect of Arabic The war began rather unexpectedly At least for those of us who were so complacent in our lives that we didn't bother to pay attention to the political unfolding around us I think that's probably a human trait that we all are guilty of committing But the war did start in 1975 of April There were a few warnings about a month or two prior at least warnings that I was privy to demonstrations in the streets, assassinations of prominent political leaders in the south But because that was the south of Lebanon I never assumed that that would really affect my life in Beirut After all, my life in Beirut was a very privileged one I was a wife of a physician I just didn't think too much about anything else I had totally forgotten about those Palestinian refugees I had seen in a camp But when the war began in April of '75, my world was turned upside down Suddenly, I was hearing machine gun fire at the end of my street Suddenly, people were getting kidnapped because they were Christians or Muslims Something that never, ever occurred prior to this civil war But civil war is a strange thing because overnight people who are seemingly friends or at least maybe employees together in a firm or live on the same street or our kids who grew up in a neighborhood and attended the same school Civil war means that some of these people take a side and they're willing to kill for their side or for their religion, it seems My husband says that when he grew up in Beirut, nobody ever talked about religion No one ever said he's a Christian or he's a Muslim My husband had good friends who were Jews We had a thriving Jewish community in Beirut As did most Arab countries, particularly Baghdad and Damascus, Cairo But in Beirut, they had a very successful community Two of my husband's colleagues in medical school were Jewish He had a lot of Muslim friends, but no one was ever labeled by their religion Whoever started the civil war certainly knew when and how to throw in the ingredient of religion And pretty soon, a Christian would be stopped at a checkpoint in West Beirut which turned out to be labeled "Muslim West Beirut" and "Christian East Beirut" But if a Christian was found in "Muslim West Beirut" he could very well have his throat slit The same thing could happen at a Christian checkpoint in East Beirut This is how vicious civil war is and it certainly was vicious in Lebanon Who is responsible for this civil war? Everyone Everyone's a participant The losers are the innocent civilians Who are coward into their homes or shelters and live there sometimes for weeks or months on end One of the strangest things about the Lebanese civil war was in a sense It's sense of civility Civility, how can I say that because I just talked about people having their throat slit But civility, in that we had quite a few cease-fires In the first six or seven months of war we probably had 30 cease-fires People would, for whatever reason, stop fighting Whether it was a coffee brought down by a mother who knew two kids on the street Who were on opposite sides of the barricade and invited each other to share coffee with her Or if it was at the end of the month when paychecks were due Then each militia was handing out its paycheck Or they even were nice enough to stop fighting When schools let out so that children could get home from school The school buses could circulate, they could have plenty of time to get home Have a little bunch and then fighting would resume late afternoon So in that sense they were considerate, if you want, of the population They were otherwise murdering The Christians, primarily the Maronite Christians Which is a sect that's very particular to Lebanon It was a saint, Maroon, who lived in a monastery on the border of Lebanon Eastern Becca Valley that borders on Syria He founded the Maronite religion My husband is a Christian, but he's a Greek Catholic So please don't ask me what a Maronite Christian is, other than what I just said The other participants in the war were, to some extent, the Sunnis A lot were the Druze led by a certain Walid John Blat And some of the Shia militias But they had a role to play much later in the Civil War The Palestinians were probably, it's hard to say I think historians will either judge Palestinians as cause or catalyst of the Civil War Their presence certainly triggered the Civil War When Yasser Arafat was thrown out of Amman Jordan by King Hussein in 1970 After cross-border incursions into Israel And a lot of skirmishes in the capital And Hussein felt threatened He expelled Yasser Arafat in his PLO And they moved to Beirut They set up a city within a city And then it became what we call today a state within a state In the refugee camps, these same refugee camps I saw When I was driving from the airport the first day I arrived in June of 69 The Palestinians joined forces with the Druze Who are an offshoot of Islam But their caliph is from Egypt And together their declared enemy were the Christians But the Christians were certainly not innocent bystanders by any means So there was a religious tone to the war Imported I still maintain And fueled on the Muslim side There was a lot of anger and resentment That Christians ruled the city Ruled the country when the France gave Lebanon its independence Which they had carved out of the state of Syria in 1943 They declared that a Christian marinite would always be president of the country And that the other prominent positions such as the Sunni Would be the prime minister and the Shia would always be speaker of the parliament But in order to keep the predominantly Christian influence The head of intelligence The head of military intelligence The military chief of staff And all the very very important positions were always handed down to the Christians Little by little Whether it was for immigration reasons Or just over population on the parts of other communities The Christians did eventually become the minority Or did not maintain a strong enough majority According to the Muslims to justify having so much power There was also many economic considerations So these were all factors that contributed to a civil war that turned into a religious war One thing I wanted to make clear Kathy You stayed there a number of years after the whole hubbub started Didn't you? Why didn't you leave? Yeah, I stayed for the first eight years of the civil war And we lived right on the green line We had to leave our apartment 11 times Because of the bombing and the fighting When it got too intense in our neighborhood That's a very good question why didn't I leave? I think that had I lived there as an American I would have felt a tremendous need to get out of there Because I wouldn't have felt any loyalty to Lebanon or to the Lebanese But because I was living there as a Lebanese My husband Lebanese, my children were growing up Lebanese They were in Lebanese schools And nobody we knew was leaving Even though I had that choice as an American to leave any time My children were both born in the States And my husband could have gotten his green card any time he wanted It was never anything we considered My husband felt an obligation to stay with his patients Many times he said take the children and leave I did not want our family separated Did we ultimately pay a price for this? Of course anybody in conflict that long suffers Eventually from an accumulation of stress But at the time that was just the decision we all made as a family It was ultimately made for us in 1983 And that's probably the only reason that we're here today 22 years later In 1983 this was after the horrendous summer of '82 When Ariel Sharon and the Israeli army bombed Beirut for 67 days Raked havoc all the way through the south up to Beirut My daughter started manifesting in probably January of '83 at depression And I had some medical problems And by that summer it was suggested that we leave my husband Decided he wanted to stay And we were going back to the States We hadn't been back to the States to visit family or friends for four years We came for two months thinking this would be good for our daughter Nyla to get out The day we were supposed to leave to come home on September 1, 1983 The airport closed in Beirut It closed because of the battles resumed The Israeli army was still in Beirut at that time And it pulled back into the mountains But it helped to fuel if you want another major round Which lasted another year My children and I were in DC at the time that's where I grew up And so we moved to Boston where we had good Lebanese friends And my brother-in-law was also there This Lebanese friend who was my brother-in-law's best friend Had a huge house invited the kids and I to come and live with him until we could decide what to do We stayed there till March of '84 Assuming every single day that we would go back to Beirut What I think a person who's normal like you Doesn't understand that when you live in a conflict in a war zone You can become accustomed to it And it becomes your norm Yes, you wake up tired every day Yes, you don't sleep well because of the bombs But somehow you maintain hope because that's part of being a human being But when everyone around you is trying to survive You join the group You don't say, "Oh, I'm an American, I can get out of here anytime and I'm leaving" We had a beautiful community of family and friends Constantly I had people at my lunch table or dinner table And the kids, this was like a security blanket for them They felt loved, they never felt fear Even though, I mean, yes, there were bombs, but we would never stay in our apartment Which was a rooftop apartment, but we'd go down to my husband's office on the second floor So, in other words, we adjusted And during those first six months when you would think, "Aha, she's definitely going to leave" She doesn't because she gets fooled, you see Every time there's a ceasefire, you say, "The war's gonna stop, our leaders aren't that dumb after all" They're definitely going to arrange, "Look, there's a French emissary who's coming" "Look, the Vatican sent somebody to talk to these crazy people and things are gonna" And then little by little month goes into month after another ceasefire and another week or two or a month of battles You become acclimated into it, and you don't ever think about leaving That's the really weird thing that happened, and it happens to everybody At least people who were dedicated to living in a place I mean, this was a little bit different when we recently saw, for example, Lebanese who had gone home For holidays to Lebanon and got struck during the Hezbollah Israeli war And the first thing was like, "Yikes, I have to get out of here" And they were evacuated, etc. or found private ways of getting out It's different when you're living there and that's your life You do become acclimated, so in other words, when my husband came in to see us in March of '84 And by coincidence, one of his patients was in Boston also And this friend of ours, patient, his name was Sabah, really saved our lives Because he told us one day after lunch He said, "You know, there are peace talks going on in Louisiana and Switzerland right now" And let me tell you something, it's a bunch of baloney what they're talking about there There won't be peace anytime soon in Lebanon, and I'm telling you, as your friend, you must stay in the States At that moment, we were like children unable to make a coherent decision We could never cut the umbilical cord So you're asking why we stayed, these are all reasons why we stayed And this friend, Sabah, cut our umbilical cord, he thought for us And obviously, something in our minds finally clicked to say, "Gee, maybe he's right, maybe we shouldn't try to go back there" After that, my husband contacted his old boss at the University Hospital in Madison And he found a position for him here in Eau Claire And that's where he's practiced gastroenterology for the past 22 years Until he just retired this year until I first I'm trying to get a picture, Kathy, of who you were in 1969, you were 26 Were you an exotic world traveler? Did you grow up in some kind of a liberal household Where the idea of living in a country with lots of Muslims seemed like a normal thing Who were you at 26 versus 40 when you came back? And specifically, your ideas about religion What you thought about it in '69 when you went And what you thought about religion when you left in '83 In '69, I was practicing Catholic, moving to Lebanon I attended either Greek Catholic churches or a Latin church, Roman Catholic In fact, I probably went to Mass just about every day, I lived in Beirut Also, if you want to compliment that picture, I think I was just an average American A risk taker, as it turned out Nobody else in my family is a risk taker, so I think I got this from my Irish grandmother Who came on the boat alone from Ireland and I'm named after her People say that I have her same spirit and steadfastness, stubbornness I worked at a hospital where there were lots of foreigners working, a lot of foreign physicians And I thought their lives sounded very exciting The countries that they came from sounded very exciting As I said earlier in the interview, I was just very fortunate that this handsome young Lebanese came along And that we fell in love and we married very quickly within about six months And we've been married for over 40 years, so something went right there My religion, I was a practicing Catholic until I came back to the United States in 1983 Having landed in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, I did set out to find a church that I would feel comfortable in I didn't find one, I tried I'm very good friends with Father Clement, by the way I respect him and just love him like a brother He's just been very close to both my husband and I But he's also smart enough to understand that I have my reasons for not coming to Mass I think the church that I went to the most was Sacred Heart, the chapel And at that time there was a Father Steve, I think he's still here from the Ecumenical Center And I found his sermons arrogant and I found his sermons empty And I admit that it's probably in part due to the fact that living through a war makes you a different person Surviving a war makes you a different person What matters in life and what's important in life changes? Who you are, how you think? I'm not belittling Father Steve at all, but he did not light any fire in my soul when I listened to his sermons As I said, I found them senseless And I left Mass every Sunday, very angry until I finally decided that this is not what God intended And I can still be a good person and not necessarily have to attend Mass to prove it, so I've not gone back I think you must have lived in East Beirut because you said that was the Christian area I'm pretty sure a lot of people in the US don't even realize that a lot of Middle Eastern countries have significant enclaves of Christians Did you also have a lot of Muslim friends, at least until the war started, was that the norm? Or is it really like segregation, you know, where the blacks and whites lived on opposite sides of town? I'll go backwards to your first question, it's not segregated It ultimately became somewhat segregated, but for the most part Christians, Muslims, everybody got along We attended social events together, we belonged to the same beach clubs, so there was just, there was no difference And once again, we gathered here, as the night grows long, deep in the year It is a season of light, of prayer and fasting, and the endless longing for love everlasting All the children of Abraham, all the children of Abraham And we are Isaac, on the mountain top By the hand of God, made the killing stop Faith without measure, hope without end But it is love, we'll make the nations bend All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham And he said there is but work And he said there is but one His name is Allah His name is Yahweh His name is Jesus His name is God All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham So in this year, this dark December As we look onward, let us remember We share this history, we share this place We share this moment, we ask the grace All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham And he said there is but one And he said we are but one And we know we are but one And we are Muslims We are Jews We are Christians We are just me and you All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham All the children of Abraham That was John McCutchen The children of Abraham is the song You are listening to an interview with Kathy Sultan Author of a Beirut Heart, One Woman's War And Israeli and Palestinian voices A dialogue with both sides If I had gone maybe to a different Social group, less educated, less open minded Less open to the world I might have gotten a different reception But as I said before, religion never played a role In those that were educated And it didn't matter to anybody What anybody's religion was Lebanon is a particular case if you want In the whole Middle East Because when France carved out France was one of the mandates After the fall of the Ottoman Empire It was the French and the English Who broke up if you want The Eastern Mediterranean And divvied up the goods between them And I deal with that a lot in my book Beirut Heart And then the other book as well About what the French and the English did do But France was given a mandate of Syria And it carved out part of Greater Syria To form what we now know today Obviously Lebanon, Mount Lebanon Existed in Biblical times But the country itself Was carved out to include The ancient cities of Tyre And Siden Which were Phoenician cities in fact In the Biblical canonite history time France carved out this piece of Greater Syria To become a haven For the persecuted Christians of the Middle East So for the Christians This was a very important occurrence Christian cops from Egypt Christian Armenians from Turkey Chaldeans from Iraq These were all people who came to Beirut Some of the Christians from Syria And Mount Lebanon itself Always existed as a Christian enclave They shared it with the Druze The party that the religious sect That I referred to earlier in the interview And in fact, another reason that France felt An imperative to form this country That favored the Christians Was because of the Century-old conflicts between the Druze And the Christians across Mount Lebanon Christians had been slaughtered many times By the Druze So for this reason The Christians felt very strongly about When the war broke out About fighting to maintain Their dominance And to secure their position That they had prior to the Civil War The problem is that they fought As down and dirty as everyone else did So to a large extent The non-Marinite Christians in Lebanon Whether it be the Greek Orthodox Or the Greek Christians Or some of the Protestant sects A lot of them blame To a good extent The Marinites for how the war did turn out The Marinites turned to the Israelis The Marinites were extreme right-wing fascists And they turned to the Israelis Who furnished them with arms And it was the Marinite Christians Who entered into a partnership If you want with Ariel Sharon When he invaded Lebanon in 1982 And it was the Christians Who massacred the Palestinians In the Sabre Shatila refugee camp Under the direction of Ariel Sharon So that's why I said earlier The Christians have dirty hands In this Civil War Just like everyone else does Equally so With the Palestinians in my opinion So religion certainly had It's good aspects in Lebanon And it ended up also having very dirty Aspects during the Civil War I think Lebanon has changed significantly Because of the war and all of that's happened since then Is there still this significant enclave of Christians there? As a matter of fact, the majority in Lebanon today Are the Shia Muslims 42% It's huge The Christians have been Traditionally the better educated The Sudanese as well But we're talking right now about The Christians who were at one time a majority This is probably back in the 30s, 40s, early 50s But the Christians today Are certainly not the majority They've even refused to have a census done Because they don't want anybody to know How few they are Since the Civil War began Probably half a million Christians who left Lebanon In Lebanon it's Even the Sunni feel threatened By the Shia You've heard these different Forms of Islam referred to When we hear news about the Iraq war And certainly we've heard a lot about the Shia After the most recent war between Israel And his bullet in the south I asked you before You said that People of all religions mixed together there Do you have close friends who are Muslim Over there I mean did you have close friends? Was that kind of thing That you'd normally have Muslims over your house then Because I think so many Americans Are just completely ignorant About what it means to be a Muslim And they think that everyone's an Islamofascist Surprised you use that word Islamofascist Because I did an interview In my Israel Palestine book With a rabbi Who happens to be the chief rabbi Of the United States Air Force And he used that Because he himself is an Extreme fascist And at any rate nobody's ever used that Kind of language in the Middle East It's just the Certain politically right wing The Chinese in the bushes And the Netanyahu's used that But yes we had Very good Muslim friends Our lawyer and very good friend was Muslim And in fact here in Eau Claire Most of all of our friends are Muslims We have a lot of Muslims here I mean I think that Islam and Muslims have gotten Such a bad rap under George Bush That it has become distorted People in the United States equate Terrorist with Muslim and Islam And they don't understand That in any religion now And at least in the three monotheistic religions We have a fundamentalism Whether it's Judaic Or whether it's less Islamic Or it's fundamentalist Christians We have certainly a rise in Christian Fundamentalism Or of the other two religions as well Something that I don't know that we've seen before To this extent And I think that George has promoted The theory that Islam equates terrorism Simply to Continue his war on terrorism We've gotten rid of communism per se And Islam is a perfect new enemy Well since you know real Muslims Tell me what they're like Do they have horns or anything like that? Or do they I guess they don't eat pork probably But what can you say about them That gives a flavor of what the main line Of Islam is like The Muslims that I know here in Eau Claire Or know anywhere in the United States Or in the Middle East Are ordinary human beings like you and I are Who put dignity And love of other Ahead of And family of course And a poor The rise of Islamic fundamentalism And do not adhere to it in any way Some of them choose not to eat pork And that really never even began As a religious tradition It had everything to do with how unclean Pork was at the time I don't know if refrigeration or anything like that So it was just a food that most people avoided It's like women covering their heads Muhammad or his descendants Got that idea From visiting Christian villages Because there the women covered their heads In Islam, nowhere is it written And this is also according to Karen Armstrong Who is an authority on Islam There's nowhere written in the Quran That a woman has to cover her head A woman is asked to dress modestly And that has many interpretations But there's nowhere in Islam That a Muslim woman is required to cover her head These are interpretations By Westerners of Islam Or of the Quran This also is something that Karen Armstrong pointed out You know when the war on terrorism began here We had to have an enemy So we turned to our so called Experts on Islam And they were quoting things That I thought sounded very bizarre About Islam and about Muhammad And what a terrible person he was Until I went back and I read Just the intro into one of Karen Armstrong's books Where she mentions that The early years of the Catholic Church They did not like Muhammad and his teachings And so his teachings were translated into English By monks in these monasteries And they translated Islam into English text The way they wanted it interpreted So a lot of the traditions that we've been handed down By the bushites Do not in any way shape or form or present Islam In all due respect I think that if you want to know more about Islam That you should talk to some Muslim And they could certainly give you a much better idea Of what Islam is about But I will say that the majority Don't forget that there are 2.3 billion Muslims in the world Only 22% of those Muslims live in the Middle East And not all Middle East nurse As we've just said are Muslim The vast majority of these Muslims are one opposed to Wahhabism Extreme Islamic fundamentalism They find it absolutely obscene The idea of suicide bombers Because there's nowhere in the Quran That one dies goes to heaven and gets greeted by 47 virgins It just isn't there I think again There's a political motivation for Blackening the face of Islam Because after all we need an enemy How can you justify Any actions that you do In our war on terrorism But by blackening The people that you want to attack East is the bread we pray Love is the river rolling Black is the chance we take When we make this earth our home Gonna make this earth our home Feel the cool breeze Blowing through the smoke and the heat Hear the gentle voices And the marching feet Singing call back and fire Draw the missiles down And we'll call this earth our home East is the bread we bring Love is the river rolling Black is the chance we take When we make this earth our home Gonna make this earth our home We have known the atom The power and pain We've seen people fall And if the killing reign If the mind still reasons And the soul remains It shall never be again East is the bread we bring Love is the river rolling Black is the chance we take When we make this earth our home Gonna make this earth our home East grows from a tiny seed As the acorn grows into the tallest tree Many years ago I heard a soldier say When people want peace Better get out of the way East is the bread we bring Love is the river rolling Black is the chance we take When we make this earth our home East is the bread we bring Love is the river rolling Black is the chance we take When we make this earth our home Gonna make this earth our home [Music] Fred's small song is called "Peace Is" This is an interview with Kathy Salton, author of two books About Lebanon in the Middle East and a commentator on developments in that region Because people tend to take sides so much about the Middle East I'm imagining that in your other interviews people have accused you of being anti-Jewish Do you have Jewish friends as well? Were they part of the folks you hung with when you were in Beirut? Or are they really other for you? Kind of enemies of Lebanon and therefore perhaps less known to you perhaps than the Muslims? Nobody's ever accused me of being anti-Jewish Because most people even if they don't know their Middle East politics They may accuse me of being biased against Israel But most people make the distinction between Israel Which is the state and Israeli politics which are political and Judaism and Jews Because those are religions and religious people I didn't meet my Jewish friends until I was married And we were living in Boston when my husband was doing his medical training All of our friends were Jewish My brother-in-law was there at the time he was at MIT All of his friends were Jewish In fact these are still some of our best friends Very recently I was in San Antonio doing a writing course And one of my husband's instructors from medical school David Rosenthal lives in San Antonio And Daniel is Jewish, very Jewish, very pro-Israeli Yet I stayed at his house, we talked politics We didn't agree a lot but because he was Jewish or not Did not in any way interfere with a friendship Not at all When I went to Israel half the people I met are where Israelis Some of my best friends now are Israeli In fact my husband's aunt who was a Carmelite nun Worked in Israel for quite a few years when she knew I was going to Israel Palestine did her research for my second book She gave me the name of her Jewish friend Who is the head of the philosophy and theology department at Hebrew University So she was one of my interviewees And through her I met lots of other Jewish Israeli friends An Israeli friend who supplies me every single day with about 40 articles To keep me up to date for my research and work I cross boundaries, nobody is an enemy to me I've started an Israeli-Palestinian dialogue group in Eau Claire Can't say that we agree 100% but we've done public radio together We've dissected inside and out the Hamas elections last January We've given a presentation to the Universal Unitarian Church So I cross boundaries and I feel very comfortable talking to anyone Do you end up assigning blame about the current war I guess between Israel and folks in Lebanon, Hezbollah or whomever Is there a fault in that or is fault really not relevant? Yes, fault is relevant because innocent people have died and innocent people have lost their homes And innocent people have become probably irrevocable refugees So yes, I place blame but it doesn't go on the people, it goes on a political system Political leadership who's inept in Israel And a political leadership who's totally inept in Washington DC That's where my blame goes and of course to Hezbollah It's interesting, Nasrallah who's the chief of the Hezbollah just made a interview yesterday He said that had he known that Israel would rake such havoc on Lebanon And create 800,000 refugees and kill 1,175 people that he would never have done what he did on July 12th Kidnapping the two Israelis, of course our media says they were captured in Israel Other media, European media is now saying no, they were actually in Lebanon What most Americans don't know, there have been cross-border incursions between these two parties Since May of 2000 when the Israelis pulled out of South Lebanon Ending a 22-year Israeli occupation That's in fact where Hezbollah was born as a resistance movement against an occupation in South Lebanon The cross-border incursion on July 12th was essentially had been announced That Nasrallah intended to kidnap Israeli soldiers to hold them in ransom bargaining chips For the hundreds of Lebanese who were in Israeli jails So when this happened on the border, everybody was caught off guard The Israelis in the north, who it turns out had no provisions at all Their government totally abandoned them, so these poor people were at a loss At least the Lebanese have had 15 years of civil war and they know what to do in a bomb falls We fill up our gas tank, we go to the grocery store We make a little carry-on and put all our important papers in it, our cash, etc Said that if you have to flee your home in a minute, notice you're ready to go But the poor people in North Israel have experienced doing that sort of thing So it was very difficult for them The same thing happened in South Lebanon, of course, too Because once the Israelis bombed all of the roads to the south None of the medical assistance or any kind of assistance got to the people in the south So by the time they did finally get there, people had been without water for days With young children, etc It was a very bad situation, but it was a situation that was horrendous on both sides of the border So who was at fault, who do I blame? Of course I blame a political entity, but I certainly don't blame the people I want to turn my focus now to the work that you're doing What is the primary focus of your work right now? Well, aside from my writing, I sit on the executive board of the National Peace Foundation Which is an NGO based in DC I'm fortunate enough to be friends with Sarah Harder Who also lives in Eau Claire, who was the president And two years ago she invited me to come on board For my expertise on the Middle East So the past two years I've been trying to develop some programs I did successfully last year bring the Jerusalem women to Eau Claire I'm happy to say that this year in February A theatre producer and a professor from Plattville And I are working to bring the same Jerusalem women to her back To cover every single campus in Wisconsin, including Marquette and Milwaukee And to include most of the campuses in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area Another thing that we've done and we've used Eau Claire, as I mentioned earlier Is really Palestinian dialogue group I believe it's very important in order to solve the crisis in the Middle East Particularly at a time when our servicemen are serving in such a hellhole as Iraq That we must absolutely must solve the fester in Israeli-Palestinian conflict And in order to do that we have to know what's going on We have to know the facts, we have to study them And that was one of my motivations for writing Israeli-Palestinian voices And that's what we try to do with our dialogue group And we're trying to start them up nationwide amongst our members too And we provide on our website a list of resources which I have in the back of my book To try to create better informed citizenry A better informed citizenry is going to hold our officials accountable for what they do in our name And hopefully lead to the resolution of what I consider to be one of the missing cornerstones of world peace And that's the end of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land There's a part I always like to hear from my guests, and that is Where does this fit into your religious spiritual life, into your values? Why is this important? Why is it more important to get national healthcare in the United States? Or why isn't it more important to worry about the survivors of Katrina? Or why isn't it more important to work about the situation down in Colombia? Which is pretty bad. Why that place? And what does it mean in terms of your original relationship with God which you can grow up with your Catholicism? Why do you have to do this work? I don't think you're getting paid for this. No, I'm certainly not getting paid for this. I think I'll start with your question about why am I not concentrating my efforts on universal healthcare? Of course I believe firmly in universal healthcare and would support any candidate who does. But I leave that to the people who have some expertise in that area. You know, not a lot of people have expertise in these really Palestinian conflict or the Middle East conflict and I feel like I'm best serving my fellow countrymen by endeavoring to help them better understand the conflict. Does my religion play into what I do? If it means that I believe that all of us who live on this earth deserve to live in dignity with justice I think that's my motivation for doing my work. Is that religious? I think so. I'm certain that even though I don't practice my Catholicism I'm certain that my upbringing as a Christian, as a Catholic has probably influenced my work. But I'm not sure I know how to answer that question. You know, I don't specifically think that religion motivates me, not at all. I think my motivation is my knowledge of the Middle East, my desire to educate. And I guess I don't think religion necessarily plays a role in that. I don't know what else to tell you about that Mark. I guess there's two parts that I'm hoping to hear something about what's true within you. And that is number one, where do you get your inspiration and your support for carrying out this work? And I think number two, what are those religious spiritual ideals that are right up there at the top for you? The ones that are most important. Evidently it's not to get rich because I think you could make more money in a different field. So maybe that's not one of your highest aspirations. What are your highest aspirations? I think my highest aspiration is to promote peace in the Middle East, to see the peoples on this divide. Whether they be Israelis or Palestinians can live a life of dignity and live a life of equality. You asked me earlier what motivates me. What motivates me is the people that I know in the Middle East, the people that I've interviewed, the people that I've met on both sides. Whether they be Israeli soldiers at the Wailing Wall or a refugee living in a refugee camp outside of Ramallah. Every single person, whether they were Israeli or Palestinian, told me that they wanted an end to the occupation and they just wanted to live in peace. I think that's strong motivation. That's certainly what keeps me glued to my computer day in and day out. I'm in the process now of starting a new project on South Lebanon because I think that there again, it's another opportunity that I've been given to try to help people understand the complexities of the Middle East. I know you have to get back to other interviews. I have a couple more questions that maybe can help people follow up in this interview. Where would they go for your website and is their separate website for the National Peace Foundation? Yes, I do have a website. It's KathySultan.com. That's Kathy with the C. On that website, one of the categories is resources. They are the same resources that are listed in the back of Israeli and Palestinian voices, a dialogue with both sides. It's a very comprehensive resource site. It lists all the Israeli sites, whether they be Israeli government sites or Israeli peace sites. They have a few Quaker sites on them. There are a lot of stateside. There's the Israeli newspapers, the Independent, the Daily Star in Lebanon. In other words, if you were to access these resources on a routine basis, you would begin to get a glimmer of what does and doesn't go on in the Middle East and be able to decipher the major differences that you read. For example, in the Israeli newspaper, as opposed to the Washington Post or the New York Times. And is there a website for the National Peace Foundation? Yes, there's NationalPeace.org, and there you can definitely access the information from there as well. Do you spend a lot of time here in Eau Claire? Are you always out gallivanting around the globe? No, I spend the primary part of my time in Eau Claire. I spend maybe a few months in DC, off and on for board meetings. I'm going to be doing some book tours this fall, which I had not done previously. I have a daughter who lives in Rome with our only granddaughter, and I have a son and his wife who live in Mexico. So I do travel back and forth those places as well, but I do call Eau Claire my home. Kathy, thank you for speaking up. I also think that by caring and by speaking and by having roots in both places, you maybe offer a hope that peace can happen and that these nations all over the world can somehow unite in some kind of peace. Inshallah, that means if God wills. Thanks, Kathy. [MUSIC] Ancient eyes are watching the night. The stars come out to guide the wind. The sun still shines, despite the clouds. And the dawn is thus, the dawn is thus his day. Farmers rise and dream to feed the world. The world awaits to feed the heart. Our hearts meet, while a thousand planes are waving. And the farmer sees a dream as plain and warm. We will have peace. We will because we must. We must because we cherish life. And believe it or not, as daring as it may seem. It is not an empty dream to walk in a powerful path. Neither the first nor the last great peace march. Life is a great and mighty march. Forever for love and for life on the great peace march. [MUSIC] Are you black like knights or red like clay? Are you gold like sun or brown like earth? Or gray like mist or white like moon? My love for you is the reason for my birth. Peace can start just one heart. From a small step to bits and bones. We will have peace. We will because we must. We must because we cherish life. And believe it or not, as daring as it may seem. It is not an empty dream to walk in a powerful path. Neither the first nor the last great peace march. Life is a great and mighty march. Forever for love and for life on the great peace march. And as daring as it may seem. It is not an empty dream to walk in a powerful path. Neither the first nor the last great peace march. Life is a great and mighty march. Forever for love and for life on the great peace march. Forever for love and for life on the great peace march. That song was The Great Peace March by Holly Nier. You've been listening to an interview with Kathy Salton, author of A Beirut Heart, One Woman's War. You can hear this program again via my website, northernspiritradio.org. And you can find other programs and helpful links and information on that site as well. The theme music for Spirit in Action is "I Have No Hands But Yours" by Carol Johnson. Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeet@usa.net. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. I have no high your call for you and dreams. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy in selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy in selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy in selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy in selflessness.