Spirit in Action
Gaylord Oppegard/Veterans for Peace
I have no hands but yours to tend my sheep. No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep. I have no arms but yours with which to hold. The ones grown weary from this struggle and weak from growing old. I have no voice but yours with which to see. To let my children know that I am out and out is everything. I have no way to feed the hungry souls. No clothes to give and make it the ragged and the morn. So be my heart, my hand, my tongue, through you I will be done. The enders have I none to help and die, the tangled nuts and twisted chains, the strangled fearful minds. Welcome to Spirit in Action, my name is Mark Helpsmeade. Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Above all, I'll seek out light, love and helping hands, being shared between our many neighbors on this planet, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. I have no way to open people's eyes, except that you will show them how to trust the inner mind. My guest today on Spirit in Action is Gaylord OpaGuard. Gaylord served in the military from 1962 to 1965, but it was not until 2004 and after 30 years as a Methodist that he took part in his first peace action, opposing war and standing for peace. He is part of a founding group of veterans for peace in the Chippewa Valley. Welcome Gaylord, thanks for joining me on the Spirit in Action. Thanks for having me Mark. I think you just came here directly from public witness, concerns about the policies of the Bush administration. How did that go for you? It was very well attended and I'm glad I was able to attend that. It just showed me that I'm not alone in the thoughts that I'm thinking in terms of some of the things we're looking at here in our government today. We had about 25 folks that are all like-minded as thinking that we're going through some lies here in this country today and that perhaps there should be some changes made in our federal government even before the next election. Are there particular policies of the administration that concern you? Yes, there are. There's the, of course, the Rocky War. That's, I believe, the big one. We we got into that. The lead-up to it is really what bothers me. We were told so many different things that have since we found they're not true, particularly perhaps just lately with the news we've been listening to here concerning how things are kind of falling apart and that lies have been indeed told and are now being uncovered. Well, I find that that is one particular very, very troubling thing for me. I feel that we've got, at this point, 2025 Americans dead, over 15,000 wounded, and then we never hear too much about the wounded and the dead of the Iraqi people. And as far as I'm concerned, they are people as well as we are. Their numbers ought to be included, too, and that's a tremendous number that have died, have suffered, and people that will continue to suffer well on into the future. This all started pretty much based on one lie right after the other. See the plane in the distance. See the flame in the sky. See the young ones running for cover. The old ones wondering why. The tell us that the world is a dangerous place. We live in a terrible time, but in Hiroshima, New York, or in Baghdad, it's the innocent to die for the crime, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name. Witnesses watch through the window, their hearts lock in horror and pain, that the man lying strapped to a gurney, the poison has come through his veins, and I'm wondering who are the prisoners, who was the lock and the key, who has the power over life over death, when will we finally be free, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name. We stray and we stumble in seeking the truth, wonder why it's so hard to find, but in our name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name. What is it in my teaching about loving your enemies, that you people don't understand. What is it in my teaching about loving your enemies, that you people don't understand, that you people don't understand. What is it in my teaching about loving your enemies, that you people don't understand, that you people, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name, not in my name. What's your age, Gaylord? I'm 63. I think that means that you were not a hippie in the midst of the 1960s. What were you doing during the 1960s? I enlisted in the military. It was more of a matter of not having a job, I guess, and not knowing what direction I was going. I have since called that spinning my wheels. I enlisted for three years in the Army and the military, and so I was in the early part of Vietnam from 1962 to 1965, so I'm a Vietnam era veteran, but I am not a Vietnam veteran as such. Where did you serve? What did you do when you were in the military? I served actually in Germany in a artillery unit there. I was there for over around two and a half years. I'm sure to some people it would seem kind of strange that you were evidently very strong anti-war opinion now you served in the military then. Did you have clear ideas about values of military or killing or participation in more at the time when you were in the military? No I did not. I was when I went into the service, I think, a naive 19-year-old, and sometimes as we look back at 19 we pretty much have most all the answers that there are to be had. I don't know what your background is, but we all think that we pretty well know much much more than we really do, and the maturing process has to be done with time, and it has to be done with looking at views, I guess, from a different direction, and so yeah, during Vietnam I thought that, "Yeah, this is what we've got to win. We were told, boy, we've got to win this. It's necessary. We need to be there." But again, as time goes on, we look at things from a different perspective. Things change. To me today, that war was a complete waste of time, and we did lose it as well. What is your attitude towards wars in general? Are there specific wars that are okay, other wars that aren't? What kind of viewpoint do you hold these days? As I said, I have changed my mind a lot in terms of what is a necessary war, if we want to look at it from that standpoint. I believe that perhaps in certain instances there's a time for war that perhaps we must if we were to defend ourselves as such. For example, if we had folks attacking on our shores, and if we didn't do anything, we would be taken over, then that would be perhaps an instance to go to war. However, what we get into is always going to someone else's country and having the war there. I feel that we should be mature enough to sit down at a table and negotiate what should be done. What is in the best interest of all parties concerned? I believe if this were done nationwide and with other nations, that we would be safer, more friendly world. In the period when you served in the military, you certainly trained with weapons and you were trained, that you were supposed to be ready to kill people. You never saw any actual active battle, did you? No, I did not. As I said, I was a Vietnam era veteran. I served my time in Germany, but yes, you're right. Anyone who serves takes basic training. You have a weapon and you are trained to kill, that's your mission at that point and that's your training. It's what you learn. I never participated in the military. I wasn't quaker growing up, but the Vietnam War ended by the time I turned 18, and so I just never faced the need to go fight. I wonder how I would have handled it, and I wonder how you did handle it. This conflict between doubt shall not kill, that we all get raised with, and the fact that they're training you, get ready to kill. How did that sit in your mind? How did you react to that kind of training? I guess at the time I didn't have any real deep feelings on that, Mark. I think that at the time I went into the service, I was perhaps ready to do what I had to do, although I don't think anyone, at least anyone in their right mind, perhaps looks forward having to be a part of war and that's killing. I don't think anybody necessarily wants that. In my case, as I said, I was a naive 19-year-old. I didn't think that perhaps I was ever going to do that, and I don't think anyone who went in, for the most part, was really looking forward to doing it all the time, so I should take that back. There were probably some who might have done that. It's a conflicting thing, however. Did you have a religious upbringing before going into the military? Yes, I did. I was raised in the Lutheran Church as a youngster. My wife and I met, she was a Protestant as well. We actually went to different churches, kind of trying them out, if you will, trying them on for size. Later on, as we were married, we became part of the Methodist Church. I'd have been for the last 30-plus years. What role did the talk about peace have to do with the church that you grew up in, and I guess later in the Methodist Church you're a part of? My understanding is that most churches talk about Jesus, for instance, as the Prince of Peace. We all learn in church, turn the other cheek and love your enemies and all that kind of thing. Is that the kind of exposure that you had in your Lutheran Church and in the Methodist Church, where you've been attending for the last 30 years, Galer? Yes, these are things that are taught in churches, and certainly should be taught in churches. That should be their role, I think, is to preach peace. Yes, I think I would say that it's always been something that I've grown up with. One of the things that we know, if we're church-goers at all, is that peace be with you is one of the things that we depart from that church that we say to each other. Jesus is the Prince of Peace, and therefore I think peace is ingrained in us as we attend our churches and as we grow up, and that's the way it should be. However, as we know, sometimes there seems to be a conflict with this when it comes to war times. Sometimes we preach about peace and hear about peace on Sunday morning, but sometimes it seems to me at any rate that that may sometimes may get lost, shall we say, the rest of the week. There's a bit of a conflict with that, with me personally also. I think maybe I need to step back, Galerians, talk a little bit about your history. You're in the military for a few years in the early 60s, up to the mid 60s. You got out, and what I heard you say was that you were kind of still believing in the war in Vietnam at that point. What point did your opinions start to turn? Maybe about that war or about war in general. I don't know exactly that you're considered a pacifist now, but you are certainly a member of the Veterans for Peace. How did you get from being in the military to being in Veterans for Peace? Okay, to back, I guess way back, I started looking here, for example, at why are we there? Why are we here? Perhaps when a lot of other people did back in 1969, when the war in Vietnam was really going downhill. There were a lot of deaths, we saw them on TV and so on. A lot of protests here in Madison against this war, and at that point things started to change with me in terms of, wait a minute now. This is not really what I want to do. We need to draw this thing to a close. Did you ever participate in protests or actions against Vietnam War? No, I did not. To start with a little bit after I got back, I was still sort of a believer in it. I was told that, well, this is a war that we have to be in, and I don't think I was alone in that. A lot of people thought that, well, it had to be. Although, again, change comes about slowly sometimes after a while and began to see the light show. This was not the thing, and actually during the later part of the war, I finished college and was working, and it was just something then that I, to protest the war, it was not a part of what I needed to do. I had a job to do, like many people, if they have a job to do that, that has to come first in their life, and that's kind of the way that was for me at that time. Then, if you will, we could fast forward to the very recent past, basically, perhaps 2004 prior to the elections, that things were not looking good here in terms of what we had going on in Iraq, two political sides, of course, disagreed on that, and it just sort of, I guess, became a natural that if I did not like this war, then I spoke up against, so as far as being active in peace activities, veterans for peace, this has occurred recently within the last year and a half. So had you ever participated in a demonstration or any of that kind of activity before 2004? No, I believe I had not. I just was one of those people who let things go on as they were, and I had not. In retrospect, I should have. Tell me a little bit about what filled up those 30 years for you. What were you doing before, I guess, you were 62 or something? I taught agriculture at the high school in Chippewa Falls for several years. I retired about seven years ago now, I had an opportunity to go out under an early retirement thing. I did that, and so that's what has filled my life until then. When you get to retirement age, Mark, you're a real young guy right yet, you'll find you've had people tell you that you don't have enough time to get everything done, and I guess that's kind of been my case also with retirement, but it works, retirement works very well. Now that I have gotten active in peace movement, which I'm happy I did, I find that this is something that fills my time even more. I think you have children, Gaylord, am I right, and if so, where are they, and have they been interested in the military? I have two children. They are, one is in Madison, the other one is in the Madison area, and they have very strong views against this war as well. In fact, several years ago, during the Gulf War I didn't have real strong opinions of that one way or the other, but I had my younger daughter, and I respect her very much for what she did, and I didn't even realize it until very recently that she was involved in Chippewa Falls as a student in a small peace rally at one time. She and I didn't necessarily always agree when she was younger, and she didn't even tell me about this until just recently, and I'm very proud of the fact that she did take part in this. I am ashamed of myself, I guess, because she didn't allow herself to tell me what she was doing. She was a little afraid, I'm thinking, maybe quite afraid, that I would not approve of what she was doing, and again, I'm very proud of what she did, and I've told her so recently that I think that was great. Both my children are very much progressives, and are not at all in favor of this war. Now I've been happy lately, thinking about the good things to come, and I believe it could be something could have begun, for I've been smiling lately, dreaming about the world of one, and I believe it could be some day it's going to come, because I'm on the edge of dawn, and their eyes will be strained, or peace will take this country, don't take me home again, I've been smiling lately, thinking about the good things to come, and I believe it could be something good has begun, for peace trains sounding louder. Light on the peace train, come on the peace train, get me straining a holy molar, to every another one of these trains, come on the peace, catch your bags together, come bring your good friends too, a cause is getting nearer, it soon will be with you, and come and join the living, that's not so far from you, and it's getting nearer, soon it will all be too, peace train sounding louder, come on the peace train, come on the peace train, now I've been smiling, thinking about the world as it is, why must we go on hating, why can't we live in bliss, cause I'm on the edge of dawn, and their eyes will be strained, or peace will take this country, come take me home again, or peace trains sounding louder, Light on the peace train, come on the peace train, just peace train, holy molar, to everyone to the palm of the peace train, come on, come on, come on, come on, peace train, yes it's the peace train, come on the peace train, come on the peace train, come on the peace train. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] You're listening to an interview with Gaylord Opogard of the Chippewa Valley Veterans for Peace. I believe you've been attending Methodist Church for the last 30 years, your children were raised in that, what values do you think that they got from that exposure, and what values do you think that they got from you, in particular as regards peace or war. My kids were raised in the church as you indicated, and they have, as far as I'm concerned, just really great values in terms of treatment of others. Both my daughters are so very, very giving. I guess I'm a bragging dad right now, and I got a chance to do that, but they are, they're very, very, and people who know them would certainly agree with me on this, and they are very loving, they're very accepting of others. They do not judge someone else and say, well no, that person is wrong. I honestly have learned a lot from them. You look at this and you think that while kids ought to get their values from mom and dad, I guess I honestly would have to turn that around just a little bit and thank my daughters, because I personally have gotten some values from them, and I'm saying this in all honesty, and I really respect, as a parent, I'm glad that I can be able to say that I respect both my daughters very much. Hopefully they will tune in. I imagine, Gaylord, that Methodist Church can be all over the political spectrum. It's a Christian Church, and so I think there's some things that that can or should imply. The Church that you attended, where would you put it on the spectrum in general in society, and perhaps maybe with respect to war? That maybe is a tough question. I think, I guess you'd call them in between. I'd have to say, and plead ignorance here, perhaps, and I'm not that familiar with other churches, although I, of course, know some of the philosophies of some other churches. I would put the Methodist Church probably somewhere in between. At one point, they were considered to be, I'm not sure what term to use, real straight laced. I believe they've become more in line with what the norm is, if you want to put it that way, as far as what their beliefs are in peace or a war. I think they're like most churches. They practice peace and peace be with you and these sorts of things. On Sunday morning, it's mentioned in the sermon and certainly in the literature. Is there much support for the war in Iraq in that Church currently? The Church, at one point, was always praying for the troops. It was always a prayer for, and during the announcement time, always a prayer for the troops. And I guess that's okay. We need to support these troops. We need to support these troops and bring them home is what we really need to do. One day during the announcements, someone had said, "Bless the troops." And I stood, I said, "Let's bless the troops." However, let's certainly not forget about the Iraqi people where this war is being fought. And after that, the announcements did take a little bit different avenue, I think. Then we were looking at blessing, maybe more than just our troops, but everybody that is involved in that terrible war, friend and full alike. Maybe I can share an anecdote of my own with you. I heard a woman speak. She's part of a peace witness, peace delegation that's living in the Middle East. She was living in the country of Jordan. After 9/11 happened here, and again, she's been very active in peace process between Palestinians and Israelis and so on. She came to the United States, and as she traveled across the country, she kept seeing signs everywhere, "God bless America, God bless America, God bless America." She loved our country, and so there wasn't any question about that, but she felt like the other parties weren't being seen or heard or cared about. And she said she felt an immense relief when she, somewhere in Ohio, came across a place where they had a gigantic sign out that said, "He's got the whole world in his hands." And for her, that was the statement not favoring just one party over another, but that God really cares about the whole planet. Very good. I like that. I think that far too often, far, far too often, I believe that a certain amount of people in this country are under the impression that God is on our side. And perhaps we ought to ask ourselves the question, "Well, is that really true?" One bumper sticker that I saw, and I'm sure you've heard of this one, "Who would Jesus bomb?" I think that carries a lot of philosophy right there. We're supposed to love each other. There's not supposed to be hate. As I said, I believe that all too often when we say God bless America, God bless the troops, that I have problems with that one because I'm not sure that we should automatically assume that God is on our side. Did you get any negative feedback after you brought up praying for everybody, including the Iraqis? No, I didn't. As a matter of fact, I took the feedback that I got, which was basically none, to be positive. The acceptance of that, as a part of the service after that, that we bless all, we include all. I took that as a positive sort of thing. When was it that you brought up that point? It's been probably six months ago. I'm guessing here a little bit. I guess the reason I don't know is because since then I've had some problems accepting some of the things that seem to be a church belief at this point. As you know, the military is trying to do whatever they can to enlist people and get them into the service. For several months, our recruitment has been down. The military has not met their goals. They've even dropped their goals by something like 25% so that they can say they made their goals, but they haven't made them. The point I'm getting at here is that we had an announcement one day in the church newsletter that said, "seniors, would you like to perhaps join the military and see the world?" If you are interested, then you should come down to the armory on a certain day next month or the month after and have fun. What I was going to amount to was that these kids were invited to the armory in Chippewa Falls. They were going to have free food, they were going to have a Humvee pool, and they were going to have a paintball shooting sort of thing. And there were going to be speakers there. Well, I read into the speakers thing that part of this was going to be recruitment, or at least a good part of that. And I read that thing probably four times before I completely understood or believed that I understood what was going on here, and that our church was basically simply recruiting kids for a war that I don't believe in. And so I have had some problems here just recently with accepting things in the church. How did you respond to that announcement then? I made some phone calls to try to see if others were pretty much on the same track that I was. And I found that some were, although others said, "Well, you know, don't rock the boat, we don't want to cause a problem here." I found people who were very responsive to what I said. On the other hand, I was a little put out to think that some thought that, "Well, don't rock the boat here because we don't want to cause problems." It seems to me that churches ought to be against this war. If we're really for peace, then we ought to be against war. That's my whole thing, I think. And that if we're talking here about such things as paintball and inviting kids to go to their armory, and that then when it's pointed out that maybe there's some problems with that here from a moral standpoint, I just decided that we should be more for peace. Given that there are some people who are part of that Methodist church who support the war, who think that it's fine, what would have been an acceptable way to deal with it in the context of that Methodist church? Well, one of the things that I proposed to a couple folks up there was that if we had this day at the armory, this "fun day," then that perhaps we should look at it on the other side and do some sort of a peace rally. And that was met with a certain amount of good response. I was told that we could have a prayer vigil, but that it might not be appropriate to have a peace vigil. And that gave me a little bit of a problem. I couldn't see that there was all that much difference in a prayer vigil as opposed to a peace vigil. I thought, well, a peace vigil would be kind of just opposite, if you will, of the hummer pole and the "fun day," and that maybe we could balance this out. And I would be okay with that. But as it was, as far as I know, there was never any kind of peace rally sponsored by that church. My idea is that churches ought to get together all over and say, "Hey, if we are for peace, then let's go ahead and have a peace rally." You said that the announcement about the "fun military day" appeared in the bulletin. Is this representative of the general opinion of people there at church or of the policy of the church? No, I don't believe it is. I think that particular announcement got in there a little bit by mistake due to someone who put it in that was not perhaps aware that that would not be necessarily approved by at least some folks like me. Realistically, I do believe that maybe it got in there by mistake, but I think that even if it got there by mistake, that we should have made sure that we came back with some reply saying that, well, that was a mistake, or here's something that we can put in here to counterbalance that, if you will. I want to turn now to your participation in Veterans for Peace. What is Veterans for Peace? What does one do to belong to that group? Veterans for Peace is a group of veterans, although we have associate membership as well, where a person does not need to be a veteran at all. They can just simply believe in the same things that we do. Veterans for Peace is just that, basically. We're a group that believes in peace. We also, however, try to educate others that others should be for peace, and we try to show where, in this particular case, we're in now where things are not necessarily as they are stated from our federal government. The main thing is that we're just that. Veterans for Peace, we are starting an organization here in the Eau Claire Chippewa Menominee area. We have a scattering of members right now, but we're in the process of trying to get more members so that we can get into schools so that we can educate kids and show that there is another way of going. We hear about, for example, other organizations as far as military veterans are concerned, but we don't see the peace side of this. We have to balance things out and show that there's a peaceful side of this as well. It's not the warrior worship mentality, if you will, that we see in some of the other veterans' organizations. Gaylord, my father served in the Korean War, and he always touted that, taking a turn in the military made a man out of him. It really helped him grow. Is that what you feel about your own experience with the military, that it really helped you develop personally? I wouldn't say that the military itself caused me to mature. It was the fact that three years passed from the time I went in until I got out. Just aging itself is a part of the maturation process that we have to go through as youngsters. I guess, in honesty, I learned respect for authority in the military, and so from that, the military was a benefit to me. And it's a combination of things where you have to learn respect, you have to do what you have to do. You also then are maturing at the same time in terms of age, and how much we can say it was due to age, and how much to something else is a little tough call, I think. Is there any specific benefit that you think you can identify that you got out of being in the military, as opposed to spending those three years elsewhere? Well, I guess, honestly, the one thing was I did get some military benefits when I got back as far as education, which worked out very nicely. I got back, and within the year I got married. It was great to be able to have those benefits afterward, so from a financial standpoint, it was a benefit to me. Although, if you look at being in the service, the pay there was something like $74.71 a month, or something like that, so there were not a lot of monetary benefits while you were in. So maybe when I got out, some of them were made up from the standpoint of the education part. The members of the Veterans for Peace, do you need to be a pacifist to be a Veteran for Peace? I was told at one point that you did, and I specifically asked the question, do you? And I'm not certain that I have the right answer to that, Mark. I'm really not sure. I think at one point you probably were supposed to be a pacifist in order to be a member of Veterans for Peace. I'm not sure, however, that that may have been, I don't want to use the word dropped, but maybe the focus isn't quite as much on that today, because I think, honestly, I think to be a true pacifist, maybe there aren't many true pacifists out there. And so that I believe would limit the amount of people that we could have as a part of our group. Is it your impression that the other folks that you know who are Veterans for Peace are pacifist or pacifist leaning? I like to turn pacifist leaning. I am certain that that would be a correct characterization of most of us, not necessarily pacifist, but yeah, pacifist leaning. What kind of activities have you done and are you planning? One of the activities that I guess I kind of took upon myself earlier this summer, and it's something that we didn't do as a group, something that I took a look at and I became a believer in, I guess, right away. And my goal is to try to get more of our group to do this, and that was an opt-out program in the high school at Chippewa Falls. If you're not familiar with opt-out, basically what that means is that you send home a piece of paper saying that I, so-and-so, the student's name, want to opt-out and then have the parents sign that. Now what they are opting out of is for recruiters to come onto the school campus and sit down with them and attempt to recruit them. They would be opting out of telephone calls at night. They would be opting out of mailings that understand DVDs are sent out and so on, very expensive materials to try to recruit kids. We were able to, I got this into the hands of the right people up there, including the school board president, and that went into the packet, this opt-out form, into a packet before students registered at the high school. They were told, okay, you can bring this back or disregard it, this form, but we'd like to have you bring it back, either signed or not signed, there's no pressure put on. And in the senior high school in Chippewa Falls, there were over 300 students who brought back their opt-out form with their signature on it, with their mom and/or dad signature on it, that said no, we don't want the military to be able to come to school, take me, the student, out, and try to recruit me. This is something that I kind of did, told others that I was going to do it, and just kind of worked out very, very well, and it's something that I have talked to some of the other members and potential members of Veterans for Peace here. And right now, the cutoff date was, I think, the first of November or something, so that you no longer can do that for this year. But next year, one of my personal goals, and some of these other gentlemen, and ladies as well, are going to try to get as many of these opt-out forms in as many schools as we can, so that students have that option of opting out of having high schools. Did you go to Washington, D.C. for the September 24th march there? I was asked to go to that march, and I look at that and think that, well, maybe in retrospect, I still should have gone, but as we age, we tend to be able to sit less long, I think, and a bus ride to Washington, D.C. and back just did not appeal to me any great way. So I declined that offer, and instead, I decided, you know, I can do something here, perhaps, locally, that will be maybe not as meaningful as going to Washington, D.C., but on the other hand, maybe even more worthwhile. I made some phone calls, got on the computer, talked to folks, and we had a peace rally of our own right up at Chippewa Falls. We had, in fact, 35 people that showed up for that with signs and so on, and I want to give them some credit to the people from Menominee, and especially to the people from Eau Claire who came up and supported that. It was a sort of thing that when I put it out the next morning, the Saturday morning at 10 o'clock on the September 24th, I knew for sure of about two or three or four other people who were going to be there, but I thought, well, maybe we're the only ones going to respond to this. But I was so happy to see that we had a great turnout from Chippewa, Menominee, and Eau Claire with 35 people expressing our views of that, and I might add that we had someone kind of kept track of probably about 10 to 1 positive response with thumbs up and horns and, yes, go for it, things like this. Do you ever receive any abuse for being opposed to the war, even as a veteran? Knock on wood, not yet. I did think about that. I guess when I first got into this, I have a sign and have had for some time now in my yard at home that says, "Another neighbor for peace." And I thought, well, now, is that sign going to get abused? Is it suddenly going to disappear? And I thought, well, I'm going to leave it there. Left it there even for Halloween. That sign has stayed there. And I guess I'll give people credit that maybe people are looking at that and saying that, well, okay, there's somebody who we know where he stands. He stands for peace. And I want people to know where I stand. I think that the Chippewa Valley Veterans for Peace group was just getting organized this past month. Have you planned any activities? We have one important activity coming up very soon, and that's on the 11th of November for Veterans Day. We do have our group, then, which consists of, as you said, the Chippewa Valley group, Menominee, Chippefals, and Eau Claire. We have a program on the evening of November 11th, beginning at 7 o'clock that we would like to invite folks to come on down to. We'll have a speaker there, a reading, a poem, and some other things. It'd be a candlelight vigil all through it, looking at somewhere between 30 and 40 minutes. We don't want to drag it out too long. We're never sure what the weather could be on a night like that. At 7 o'clock, then, on November 11th, bring a friend, come on down and help us to observe Veterans Day. Where are you going to be doing that? This will be in front of the Federal Building, right here in Eau Claire. Right on Marshall Street. Do you know anything about the history of Veterans Day? Do you feel any conflict between standing for peace on Veterans Day? No, not at all. I feel that any veteran who has been in war should eventually be known to be there for the purpose of the end product, should be peace. Anyone who has been a part of the military, whether they have seen active combat or not, we need to recognize what their service has been and that they have given for their country. And I guess I believe that this should even be for our enemies as well. They are humans, they are people, and they have suffered as well as anyone. And so I feel that true observance of it should be to observe and honor all who have given. Wasn't Veterans Day originally called Armistice Day? Armistice Day was first declared right at the end of World War I. Basically it was a commemoration of the war to end all wars. I look at that and think, oh, somebody was not paying attention because it ended up to not be the war to end all wars. We've had all kinds of things since, of course, World War II and then Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, Gulf War II, Grenada and various other, Bosnia, all kinds of other battles and wars since that time. But then in the early 1950s, the name was changed through legislative action. It was changed from Armistice Day to Veterans Day then to honor all veterans both living and dead, at least on our side. What, in your opinion, again, I'm talking about your opinion, Gaylord's opinion, as opposed to that, necessarily of the veterans for peace, was the proper attitude that people should have towards those currently serving in the military? I believe that anyone serving in the military must be honored, respected, particularly supported. However, I do not believe that this means that we need to support what they're doing or what they've been told they must do. I think many of us have a problem with that. Yes, support the troops, bring them home is what I would really say. We need to understand that supporting them is necessary. They have been told what they have to do as a part of their training, as a part of what they're there for, but we should not necessarily support the reasoning behind all this. I don't want to get into any kind of heavy theological wrangling about this, but when I think about supporting the troops, I run into a conflict. I believe that quite literally we're supposed to love our enemies, and that kind of implies not killing them. I think it's been said of a number of different people who have been sinning that you love the sinner, but not the sin. How does that play off if you happen to think that killing other people is wrong? It's immoral to kill other people to bomb civilians, et cetera. As we've done in Afghanistan and as we are still doing, I think, in Iraq, how do you support someone who is doing in action, which you consider to be immoral, besides bring them home? Yeah, I guess my response to that would have to be, first of all, I would believe, and I still believe that we can sit down at the table, and I are not these differences. I think as we grow up, and as parents, and I had daughters as I indicated before, I would not certainly send them to school and tell them, well, now, if you have a conflict with somebody, punch them in the eye. This is not appropriate behavior. We teach our children correctly, and hopefully that takes with them as they become adults. Certainly, if a child has a conflict, we would rather have that child come to the table with the other child that they're having the conflict with, writing down rights and wrongs. However, you want to do it. Say, "Okay, I believe in this, and you believe in that." In other words, give and take care, and then have them come up with the proper treatment of each other, and I think we should be able to take that lesson on into life as well. Life between nations, shall we say. We have all this technology today. There's no reason that we can't get these folks that are disagreeing to sit down and say, "All right, now, here's what we need to do." What are the goals of our nation? What are the goals of your nation? What are the goals, perhaps, we should say, of the people of our nations? I think we should forget what the goals of the heads of the government are. That's what gets us into trouble, I think, to start with. It should be the goals of what the people of these nations are. What goals do they have? Maybe get the people together. Exclude our top dogs, if you will. Get the common person in and say, "All right, how can we respond? How can we iron this out? What is your goal? What do you want to see? What do I want to see?" And let the people decide. No, I'm sure that probably will never work because I guess it hasn't in the past, so probably it won't in the future. Are any members of your Veterans for Peace group, are they trained as draft counselors in case the draft comes up? Do they serve in terms of helping people be prepared if they do end up facing a recruiter? That's a good point, Mark. I'm glad you brought it up. I'm going to have to answer that question that I don't know. I don't think we have anybody in our particular group who is trained. I do know of some other groups who have people in them that have taken some kind of training, and I respect that. That is something that I want to learn more about. As I said, I'm glad you mentioned that because I think as far as goals and as far as things that our group can do, don't let you forget to jot that down here when we're finished. I want to make sure that that gets out to the group because I think that is a very, very important sort of thing to do. If we can counsel a kid and tell him what might happen to you in the military, I mean, here's a recruiter saying, talking about seeing the world, getting life experiences, and seeing everything, and doing everything, and just having a great time here. There's the other side of the coin, and we need to be trained to tell these kids that, "Hey, wait a minute now, your first duty in the military is to learn how to kill and kill if necessary." And that maybe, aside from all this money you're going to make and your savings that you're going to get for college and so on and so forth, maybe you need to realize which the military's first goal for you is, and that we need to be able to counsel those kids and show them that there is another way. Do you have anyone who's part of your Veterans for Peace Group that has served in either the first goal for or has served in Iraq? Your service was way back in the early 1960s, Gaylord. Are the other veterans of more recent wars? The thing is with more recent wars, that would have to include somebody who's younger, and as we look at it, those of us who are older seem to have more time. And so our group is heavy, I guess, on people who are retired, and so that would be the people from longer ago. We do have one veteran who is in our group who served in the Navy in Iraq, so he's got the experience of being younger and so on. But again, as I said, it tends to be the older folks who have time who get involved and who are the ones then from further back. Are most of your members Vietnam era veterans? We have some Korean War veterans. We even have a couple of people from World War II. In fact, I received a day before yesterday, a postcard, a gentleman whom I've known for years. On his postcard, he said, Gaylord, keep up the good work. He's a World War II veteran. He served in the landings during World War II. He has some real stories to tell, which he does not tell. He keeps that under wraps, but he encouraged me, and he said, great job. If you need some help on things, let me know. Oh, my name is Francis Talever. I come from Liverpool. Four years ago, the war was waiting for me after school. The Belgium and the Flanders to Germany to here. I fought for King and country. I loved him. It was Christmas in the trenches where the frost so bitter hung. The frozen fields of France were still no Christmas song was sung. Our families back in England were toasting us that day. They're brave and glorious lads so far away. I was lying with my mess-mate on the cold and rocky ground. When across the lines of battle came a most peculiar sound. Says I now listen up my voice. Each soldier strained to hear. As one young German voice sang out so clear. A singing bloody well, you know, my mess-mate says to me. Soon one by one, each German voice joined in in harmony. The cannons rested silent. The gas clouds rolled no more. His Christmas brought us respite from the wall. As soon as he was finished and a reverend pause was spent. God rest, G, Mary, gentlemen, struck up our lads from Kent. The next day sang was still enough. Desiling nights as I, and in two times one song filled up that scout. There's someone coming towards us. The front line sentry cry. All sights were fixed on one lone figure trudging from their side. His true flag like the Christmas star shone on that plane so bright. As he bravely strolled unarmed into the night. Then one by one, on either side stepped into no man's land. With neither gun or bayonet we met there hand to hand. We shared some secret brandy and we wished each other well. In an a flare lit soccer game we gave him hell. We traded chocolates, cigarettes, photographs from home. Sons and fathers far away from families of our own. Young Sanders played his squeeze box and they had a violin. This curious and unlikely band of men. Soon daylight stole upon us. France was France once more. With sad farewells we each began to settle back to war. But the question haunted every heart that lived that wondrous night. Whose family have I fixed within my sights? It was Christmas in the trenches with a frost so bitter aha. The frozen fields of France were warned as songs of peace were sung. For the walls they'd placed between us to exact the work of war had crumbled and were gone forever more. My name is Francis Tolliver and Liverpool I dwell. Each Christmas comes since World War I. I've learned its lessons well. At the ones who call the shots won't be among the dead and lame. And on each end of the rifle we're the same. If someone wanted to get connected with your Veterans for Peace group, how could they do that? Who could they contact? They can probably contact me. We don't have any officers as such. We're kind of a loose knit group yet. I guess I would have to say that I'm one of the people that you could contact. Give them more information. How should they contact you? Phone, email? Either or. My phone number is 715-723-4613. And my email is G-P-O-P-P-E-G-A-R-D at AOL.com. Thanks for joining me today, Gaylord, and good luck on all your work with Veterans for Peace. Well, thank you very much, Mark. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. You've been listening to an interview with Gaylord Opogard of Veterans for Peace in the Chippewa Valley. For more information about Gaylord, about Veterans for Peace, and about this and other programs, you can check our website at northernspiritradio.org. Music featured in this program has included Not in My Name by John McCutchen, Peace Train by Cat Stevens, now known as USF Islam, and Christmas in the Trenches. It's a song written by John McCutchen performed here by Charlie King and Karen Brandell. The theme music for Spirit in Action is "I Have No Hands but Yours" by Carol Johnson. Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeet@usa.net. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. I have no higher cause for you and dreams to love and serve your neighbor. Enjoying selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor. Enjoying selflessness. Music [BLANK_AUDIO]