Spirit in Action

Jill Sternberg/Gamaliel Chair in Peace & Justice

Jill Sternberg was the first graduate of UW-Milwaukee's Peace Studies Program she is the Sept/Oct 2005 Gamaliel Chair in Peace & Justice. She has established a peace center in East Timor, training men and women in non-violence. Jill self-designed the first Peace Studies Major at UW-Milwaukee and has established herself as a gifted and creative leader.

Duration:: 59m
Broadcast on:: 19 Feb 2006
Audio Format:: mp3

I have no hands but yours to tempt my sheep No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep I have no arms but yours with which to hold The ones grown weary from the struggle and weak from growing old I have no hands but yours with which to see To let my children know that I am out and out is everything I have no way to feed the hungry souls No clothes to give and make, the ragged and the morn So be my heart, my hand, my tongue Through you I will be done The lingers have I none to help, I'm down The tangled knocks and twisted chains The strangle fearful minds Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpsmeet. Each week, I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action and progressive efforts I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Above all, I'll seek out light, love and helping hands Being shared between our many neighbors on this planet, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life I have no way to open people's arms, except that you will show them how to trust the inner mind Our guest today is Jill Sternberg. Jill is the September-October familial chair in Peace and Justice in Milwaukee, Wisconsin Her duties for the month include speaking to a wide range of audiences on her experience as a peacemaker and on her work in East Timor where she has worked to develop non-violence and reconciliation programs in the aftermath of the destruction wrought as that country gained its independence from Indonesia The interview with Jill was recorded on September 27th. Jill was the University of Milwaukee's first Peace Studies graduate, has worked with Peace Brigades and currently works in New York doing counter-military recruitment and other peace work with the West Chester Martin Luther King Institute for Non-violence Welcome, Jill, to Spirit in Action. How are you doing today? Oh, thank you so much. I'm fine. You've had a lot of speaking engagements around Milwaukee lately. Where were you last night? I spoke at Carroll College in Waukesville. What was the topic of your talk there last night? My personal biography as a peacemaker. Last night I also talked about a mediation work that I was doing in East Timor when I lived there. How long did you live in East Timor amongst your visits? I actually lived there for three years from August of 2001 until last year and in April I came back to the U.S. Then back twice then and had visited twice before then. You evidently think of yourself as a peacemaker. What led you to that? How long have you been thinking of yourself as a peacemaker? I think of myself mostly as an activist actually and an educator, but my activism and education work is focused on peacemaking and particularly nonviolent social change work. And I've been doing that in my whole adult life. Were you doing it as a child, too? Were you a child peacemaker? I was one of those impossible kids who was always in trouble and kind of kid that you wouldn't want your son or daughter to hang around with. Well, that wasn't my impression of you when I first met you in Milwaukee a couple decades ago. What led you to this transition? How did you go from being a troubled child to a peacemaker? I think one of big influence in my life was meeting people who were engaged in peacework and doing organizing and activism around peace and justice issues and encouragement and support that they gave me. Did you have that influence when you were young, too? Were your parents peace activists or justice activists? Not at all. I grew up around the U.S. military, both of my parents were school teachers and they were school teachers in a Department of Defense school system for the children of U.S. military station to grow on. So I very much was in the opposite environment. Although when I talk about my journey, I talk very much about how the values that I have, I really do believe they came from my family. And also a rejection of what I saw growing up around the military. Where were you located at the Times? American basis, foreign basis? We're based in Germany and for example in high school I went to a U.S. military high school on Air Force Base. But we've moved in German communities. We didn't live on the basis, except for the first three years we've been there. So some of the time I was there I went to German schools and was really integrated to the German society. But finally in the end it was a U.S. military school with a graduate. Would you describe yourself as having been pro-military coming through your early teen years? Absolutely not. One of my earlier experiences I think that really made me question the military was I, as a ten year old kid, was very engaged in the church on the base and looked up to the pastor and all those things that kids do when they're engaged in the church community. And one day I went into the church to just say hi to the pastor and he was in the middle of the service blessing troops that they were going off to fight in the Vietnam War. And I knew nothing about the Vietnam War. But I turned around and walked out and didn't, I mean basically considered myself an atheist for about ten years after that because I know I couldn't believe that the Christianity that I had been taught as a child was consistent with supporting war. What kind of Christianity? I was raised up Presbyterian. I was baptized in the Presbyterian Church that my parents were married in. I went to their catechism classes and I sang in the church choir and I think I was quite engaged in the church community up until that point. What kind of things were you taught that seemed at such contrast with this minister blessing these souls? You know I don't think that I can remember anything specific what was actually going through my head at that point. But just oh God is a God of love and peace and you shall not kill and the kind of things that you hear a lot as a child as the kind of foundations of the church, the Christian. I hate to get too personal if you don't want to answer this please don't. How did this play out in your relationship with your father then? I don't think my father was that into organized religion. I remember as a kid my mom was the main motivator in getting us to church and everything. I don't think that had much of an impact on my relationship with either of my parents actually I think. I'm the youngest of five kids and I think at that point there was a lot going on in my family. When we left the U.S. to go live in Germany they still went to church but it wasn't I think as regular an activity and it wasn't. I think it's because it wasn't that community where my mother had grown up you know in the church and my parents had married a specific church and all of that. And it wasn't a Presbyterian church either they just had like a general Protestant church of the military. So was it as of that point you walked out and you were no longer considered yourself a church goer Presbyterian? I think mostly I just didn't believe what was going on in the church anymore. And for example when I was 13 we were back in the U.S. for a year because my mom and my father were getting his master's degree. You know we were back at that same community church and in the same community that we had lived in before we went away. And I went to Catechism classes that year in the church but I was looking at that point who questioned everything. And basically I was I think I was trying to get the pastor at the church to convince me but he didn't. It was interesting I talked to him maybe about ten years later and he told me which I wasn't aware of at the time that it was his first experience teaching Catechism classes. And he said it was very good for him because it really made him do his whole work but he didn't convince me. By the time you're 12 or 13 you don't want to have much to do with the choir or the legend or anything like that. Did you get confirmed? I don't even remember. I mean it wasn't important to me anymore. What did you get into after that? Where did your values lead you? Well in high school I think growing up in another culture in another country that had a very dominant US military presence I think that had a big influence on me. Most kids in that situation they just live on the base and you know the military provides shopping center and recreation facilities and you can basically live on a US military base in another country. And that really even come into contact with the people in the culture of the host country and my situation was different when I was ten years old my parents put me in a German school. I was fluent in German after a year so I spent two years altogether in German school when I was 14 I was like totally immersed in German society and then I went back to this military high school. And I felt that the people there were very close and very narrow and very judgmental about German people in German culture but they really didn't know the people in the culture. So I had a lot of challenges. I didn't think like a US military person thinks I had different ideas and different from that was very obvious. When you came back to the US where did you land? I went to UWM University in Milwaukee and UW Milwaukee. What year would that have been? 81. So you landed at UWM. What did you study there? Well I wasn't sure what I wanted to study. I actually wanted to be a veterinarian but I'm not that good in the sciences so I got off of that track pretty quickly. I actually went to school for four years before I decided what my major would be. The faculty at UWM at that time was offering peace studies courses and developing a peace studies network. I was taking a lot of the courses. Actually I probably took all of the courses that they offered at that time and also the courses that most interested me. And so after about four years I thought you know I'm going to see if I can do something with this and I asked the network for support and at that time UWM had a program where you could develop your own major. So I developed a peace studies major with support from the peace studies network. What kind of stuff do you study to be a peace studies major? What I did, I mean basically I had the opportunity to develop my own degree so I could shape it how I wanted to do it. And what I chose to do was to look at non-violence and when I say non-violence I mean the theory, the practice, the history of non-violent movement. What is non-violence? And I looked at that in all different fields so it was a multidisciplinary degree. So for example I did an independent study in economics where it has to help me to look at literature and the methodology of documenting some of the aspects of military spending. And specifically I looked at at that point Seymour Melman was publishing works about the spin-off of military spending being less than the economic spin-off of a billion sector spending and how much more damaging it is to our economy has dumped a lot of money in the military and that you don't get as much economic benefits on it. So that was something that I researched and learned not only the facts but also the methodology of how you would go about proving something like that. I studied a lot of philosophy and the other area that I focused on really was education and how you teach about non-violence so that I could teach what I would learn. So your aim was to be a teacher of non-violence? Yeah, not a teacher in the formal sense of the word but I, you know, when people ask me what life, profession is, basically I do a lot of education around peacemaking and non-violence and I do that predominantly through popular education. And that's a phrase that I don't know, popular education. Faculty of education is basically taken from the work of follow-free area which tries to erase the distinction between a teacher and the student and to embrace the concept that as we're learning we're teaching so we're all teachers and students. That's kind of what I try to do in my work and that's go somewhere and think that I'm going to talk about peace but that we're going to learn about peace together and learn about peace from their perspective. And their perspective and their situation. So you pursued a degree there in Milwaukee, did you get involved with peace and justice activities while you were there? Yeah, I really consider myself an activist. One of the things that I did with my degree is there was a possibility to get credit for doing field work. And so I, for example, went to work at our local peace center and at that time it was called Mobile Survival, now it's called Peace Action. And I basically joined the staff while I was still in school. So what kind of thing did you organize there? I had lots of fun there. A lot of disarmament work. Maybe that organization had four goals and one of the goals was disarmament. One was stopping US military intervention abroad. One was for environmental justice and the other was about meeting the need here at home. So kind of the economic justice issue here at the US. It was very active in the 80s in the US solidarity movement in support of the people in Central America and trying to change US policy towards Central America. I organized lots of educational programs, demonstrations, lobbying. Yeah, I really, it was a great education and I think it was as valuable as my university education to be actually getting in my degree. And I think it's really what shaped my work today. Somewhere in that process did you start approaching spirituality again? One of my professors who is now a good friend at that point was an excellent mentor for me or the Quaker. He encouraged me to explore the Quaker meeting here in Milwaukee, which I then started. I guess another interesting thing is, I think that really took me back to spirituality. At that time I was having a lot of Holocaust dreams and I don't think it was uncommon to see that. I think I was unique in that way at all. You know, it was the height of the Cold War. There was all this talk about first strike weapons and hair trigger alerts and that kind of thing. And I was really, I was dreaming a lot about those things and having, I guess, a nightmare. I think what happened is that I began to see that whatever arguments we make, you know, albums, we are. In the end it comes down to the choices that we make and how we want to live our lives. I think that was for me the important thing was wanting a life that embraced life rather than death. How to improve not so much life for myself, but the quality of life under it. And really engaging with people because I was learning about the different nonviolent struggles that have gone on in the world. How powerful that violence is and how possible it is to change things using nonviolent news. I decided that's the path I want to take and not the path of the U.S. All powerful number one, most weapons, most killing potential in the world kind of thing. What did this mean in terms of spiritual change inside you? Was there a sense of growing community that was part of this? I'm trying to figure out how you went from what you described as an atheist to something that was dealing with these Holocaust dreams. I think some of the aspects of Quakerism that really were attracted to me was the one with that there wasn't this hierarchical structure in the religion. The Quaker tradition that I belong to doesn't have ministers or pastors. The belief that everyone has potential if you believe in God, that of God, or good within them. I will try to bring that out, find that in people and emphasize that aspect of one person and one humanity rather than the more negative aspect. And yeah, the sense of community of worship and worship and silence with people who then share what movement and strength they felt in them in relationship to their spirituality felt much more genuine to me than somebody who was going to profess to be a religious leader. And then quite a bit critical about it. For me, I have to say I don't label myself anymore as atheist or as agnostic or anything like that. And I don't think that you can prove or disprove the existence of God. I think what's really most important for me is people who approach spirituality and religion and faith with the perspective of respectfulness of other people's traditions and faith. And other people believe for me it's not so important what someone's faith or spirituality is, but how they practice this and how that translates into respect and creating peace and justice as every faith practices and breaches. Of course, there's a hierarchy that's grabbing from power and those aspects that religion is also useful. I dreamed I saw all planet Earth for where I was to send you. Life went on as usual though my use for it had ended. And all my friends were with me there. We reviewed the good old days. Maybe we'd go back sometime, try another phase. And I watched the cars roll down the road. The smoke sticks muffin steam, the market rose and the bombs fell down and how crazy it all seemed. And I prayed that I'd remember what I saw so clear on to the answer to everything was simply love. I could see the chains that bind us, now we never will be free. Looking through the mere dimly, believing that we see. And all the pain and solace, the sickness and the fear. All the trials of mortal dump now look so small and clear. And I understood our nation now, we are not here at all. And life is the illusion that we've chosen for a while. And I prayed that I'd remember what I saw so clear about. The answer to everything is simply love. And if we would only listen to that still small voice inside, we would know in our souls there's a light that has to shine. And I prayed that I'd remember what I saw so clear about. The answer to everything was simply love. The answer to everything is simply love. Let's talk a little bit about what you experienced in East Timor. You spent a few years there at least, are some of the roots of that a religious conflict? Absolutely not. The Indonesian government did at times try to portray it as a religious conflict, but it was not a conflict of occupation. From the start it had nothing at all to do with religion. The majority of the human race are Catholics and that's the result of being a colony of Portugal and a very Catholic country for 450 years. But it's also actually a consequence of the occupation itself. The Catholic Church was one of the only institutions that could function during the Indonesian occupation for whatever reason they decided that they weren't going to shut the church down. And so people converted to Catholicism in large numbers during the Indonesian occupation because that was a community that they could join in this place where people could be together. So it wasn't at all in religion. And I don't think most conflicts are, I think even conflicts that get portrayed as religious conflict. If you look at the roots most often it's not a religious conflict at all. What is the root then that you see most commonly? I see economics and struggle over power and control as most often at the roots of conflict. Also in terms of indigenous non-indigenous conflict quite often it's land, control of land and resource. And people struggle to try to keep what little faith exists now for indigenous people to carry on their traditional lifestyle. You're listening to an interview with Jill Sternberg, a Peace and Justice activist with a special concern for East Timor where she spent several years since their 1999 independence. Jill is the September October speaker for Milwaukee's Gamaliel Chair in Peace and Justice. Can you fushing for me some of the history about East Timor? I know really very little about it. East Timor was, as I said, colonized by the Portuguese for 450 years. And in 1970s when the National Revolution in Portugal then the military was empowered but the military began the process of decolonization. And basically people in Portugal said this is in 1974 that this is no longer appropriate to have colonies around the world. So they began to decolonize. East Timor is began to, in earnest, move towards their independence. And there was a brief civil war in 1975 which was won by a little party called Treadelman which was a revolutionary party. And just as they were trying to evolve into being an independent country and get international recognition of the independent country, Indonesia. And I think it's important to point out that Henry Kissinger and then President Gerald Ford were in Indonesia the day before the invasion. There's transcripts that document that it was discussed and that they gave the green light at the Indonesian dictator, Suharto. Even to the point where US weapons that had been sold to Indonesia were sold under the condition that they only be used for defensive purposes. And Henry Kissinger had an interchange about how they would try to cover up or deny any use of US weapons as of invasion. They invaded in December and the Indonesians were so arrogant they had this saying that they were going to invade in the west because they have a land border on the western side of East Timor between East and West Timor. West Timor is part of Indonesia, was part of the Dutch East in East, that's how it became part of Indonesia. They were going to go from the west to the east and like have breakfast on the western border lunch in the second city and dinner in the east and the country would be there. And they never ever succeeded in a successful occupation that East Timor is resisted from the beginning. The terrible side of it is that about 200,000 people were killed in the 24 years of the occupation which is about as good as the country served as a population. In 1998 after Suharto was forced out of office his successor for BB in January of 1999 began talking about the possibility of a referendum to settle the question of East Timor. Legally East Timor was never recognized as part of Indonesia except by it. So legally it was still considered a Portuguese colony and a negotiation occurred between Indonesia, Portugal and the UN to have a referendum. The agreement was signed on May 5, 1999. The referendum scheduled a few times but ultimately took place on August 30th and 78.5% of the people voted for independence. After the results of the referendum were announced Indonesia military went from the east to the west and systematically destroyed the country. They destroyed three quarters of the houses, placed two thirds of the population. Destroyed all infrastructure, every school, all electrical generation capacity, water and sewage system, telecommunication, absolutely everything was destroyed. At the end of September they agreed to UNPC's big mission. The UN then took over administration with East Timor until the 20th of May 2002 when they became a dependent. And there's a newest country in there. We know war. A hundred years it haunts our homes. We know war. The generations left alone. The wombs forever wanting. The burdens we all bore. The empty chair at supper. The chaplain at the door we know war. Death falling from the sky like rain. We know war. In the sirens wail again. The blackouts and the blitzkrieg as we huddled on the floor. Children trembling in the shelter. It's the unrelenting roar. We know war. We know war. The roads have crosses in the field. The endless longing that cannot be concealed. The history shows what lays in store. We know war. By the blood in every speech we know war. In the poison that they preach. The young ones see horrors they've never known before. The scar that never heal in hearts where hatred keeps the score we know war. The armies rolling through the street we know war. We are the ones who taste the feet. The endless occupation. The searches door to door. The fear that stalks the night. Until you can't take any more we know war. When the battle's over. Victors count the cost. Cold calculation. What is one and what is lost? The survivor's song will be forever. [Music] We know war. And everyone's so much the same. We know war. No longer will we add our name. To the killing and the dying we have known too much before. When we pray for patience and you ask of us what for. Because we know war. [Music] We know war. We know war. [Music] When did you land in East Timor? Well I first went there in 1999. I was an international observer for the referendum on independence. I had plans to stay six weeks but evacuated after four weeks. The country was being destroyed. And then went back in December of 2000 to investigate the possibility of moving there to help develop a peace center with a focus on conflict transformation. And then finally moved there in August of 2004. So there now exists a peace center there? Yeah, I helped to start a peace center called the Peace and Democracy Foundation. The main work that we do when there's two things is one is training people in conflict transformation fields and approaches after living with war for 24 years. Being a colony for everybody's lifetime who's now alive before that, people have limited visions about how to deal with conflict and especially one of the legacies of war that people are quick to violence. And we are helping people to try to look at alternative approaches to dealing with conflict and problems. The other thing that we did was to develop a local model for mediation based on traditional dispute resolution practices. Being looked at as alternative to the courts like we also have the mediation program in some places that function is alternative to the judicial system. It looks to me like you can say very clearly, East Timor was wronged by Indonesia. So it makes you a partisan of some sort. In terms of that conflict, are you a peace worker? Absolutely. I don't think you have to be nonpartisan to be a peace worker. I think a stance or approach that one takes like that, whether you're doing solidarity work or nonpartisan intervention or intervening on one side. I think there's lots of choices that we can make in terms of how we approach a conflict. I don't think for me anyway it's not really very easy to be neutral about gross human rights violations and genocide and crimes against humanity. And I think we have a responsibility. Each person in this person has a responsibility to stand up when those things happen and do what they can to try to stop them. Did you have any experience with what went on in Nicaragua in the 1980s? Yeah, I did a lot of public speaking and education work here in the U.S. about the U.S. military and U.S. government role in Nicaragua and I visited there once as a way to understand the better of the situation on the ground. I'm kind of assuming, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that you don't see the United States government as being a very good peace influence in the world. Absolutely not. I think we could make a good analogy between what we're doing in the world right now and what the Roman Empire was doing at the height of its power in the world. I think that the U.S. is the equal empire. Our empire is going to fall and I think that what we really need to be doing now is to be thinking about what is it that we want to be when our empire falls. What could the U.S. do? I guess the kind of things that I think of first is what things we as individuals can do. For example, one of the big focuses of my work right now is to try to educate white people and people of European ancestry in this country about one, the history of racism in this country and then two, the current realities of how racism is still very much a part of our society. I extend that also to learning about Islam and reaching out to people who are different than us and different communities and really trying to understand them, what motivates them, who they are, their history and their values. I think that on an interpersonal level it's really critical that we move beyond stereotype and especially move beyond fear of the things that we get in the media and the mainstream of our society and really try to understand what reality is versus the myths that get perpetuated because they suit certain segments of our society. I think we have a responsibility to engage our elected representatives and officials and give them our opinions and other options of what we want to see happen and that we have a responsibility to mobilize together to change those things that we think are really going down the wrong way. For example, civil liberties of Arabs in this country are, you know, you could almost say they don't really have any and the government rounds people up and harasses people. And a lot of people will say that's okay, we need to do that because of the war on terrorism. But I would ask where's the line, where does violating people's rights cross into criminality and I think the government can be able to say no when it is. People hold the US up as this great democratic free country and yet if you look at the reality that's not the reality that we live in with other countries. Are there some better examples you could point to? Well, I think every place has its strengths and its weaknesses and I think, for example, I would say the system that we have, although we do have small third parties, the way our electoral system is structured, it's nearly impossible for them to get representation. And I think that creates a lot of problems for us. If you look, for example, at the Voting Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act really changed things in this country that afterwards a lot of black, thousands of blacks, that elected to office at different levels. And we only have one black senator at the moment at other levels, so there is much more representation of black. Not quite what it is in terms of their overall percentage of our population, but there has been some improvement. And I think that we need to be looking at what are the options for changing our electoral system to get broader representation. I think it's not healthy for this country to have power in the hands of only Republicans and Democrats. And I think if there were more parties with some power, our politics would be much more dynamic and there would be many more checks and balances than there are when having two parties that are quite similar in their perspective. And, you know, you see more as a small new country and they have 16 political parties than I would just say. I don't think that it's necessary to have 16 and I wish that some of them would unite and form a stronger opposition, but it's just, you know, to give an example that there are vibrant democracy. I mean, almost every other democracy that exists made in a lot of the Western European countries who have two predominant parties, but there are smaller parties that actually do get eastern parliament and have power and help shape government policy. Do you speak about dealing with violence from firsthand perspective? Have you had to face it in Milwaukee and New York or in East Timor? My most poignant experiences with violence are with domestic violence. I grew up in a very violent family. I did a lot of work to try to unlearn the damage that I received as a child growing up in that kind of an environment. So that's what I draw upon role, especially around working on issues of reconciliation and forgive me of those steps that I had to go through to reconcile with my father in particular. Very important to understanding how you deal with violence in a healthy way. I mean, I think we live in one of the most violent societies in the world if you want to look at it at a larger level. And I think most of the time I'm on the privileged side of that violence. I'm white, I'm a middle-class background. I don't suffer a lot of violence in that sense. Although, you know, I've been mugged in all that other kind of stuff. I think that for me, the structural violence of this society like the violence that comes along with racism is the violence that touches me most deeply. And I see myself as having a role in trying to change it as somebody who's off the group and flipping the violence. How can I mobilize to seek out about racism to really develop some programs that are going to change the racist nature of our society rather than continue to perpetuate? And internationally, I think, with U.S. is definitely the most violent country in the world. We export more arms than any country at this point. We have more needs to have weapons than any country. Our military budget is the largest in the world. And those are all things that we need to unite together to change. I think you kind of understated that last one, that our budget for the military is larger than any other countries. Isn't it larger than almost everybody else combined? Yeah, not everybody though. I mean, there are other countries that have quite large military budgets. And I think it's important not to look at the world as the U.S. is evil and everybody else is good. There are plenty of other countries where there are wars going on that the government is pouring the country's resources into militarism rather than into life-giving and life-saving programs. I don't like to characterize it. It's more bad and everybody else is good. How well are you accepted in East Timor? Is the fact that you're not Catholic or that you're still new to the language? Is that a problem there? No, not at all. But I think the biggest reason for the acceptance that I've gotten there is that I was working in solidarity with their struggle for self-determination since 1991. So I was very familiar with people from East Timor when people would usually meet them and invite them to our house or try to share a meal or organize a public program for them. We knew most of the leadership. I mean, the people who are in the leadership now and who are leaders in the resistance to the occupation. So we're in a very unique position that we know common villagers and we know the pride minister of the country, so we're very well-risky. A lot of foreigners don't learn the language when they go there, so the fact that I took the time and influenced in their language is very much appreciated. And it also appears to communicate and engage with people because there's no language barrier there. What is the language they speak there? I mean, actually, there's between 56 and 65 languages, depending on how you categorize what you want to define as a language. I speak certain languages, so in Grufronka, that most people speak non-version, or have learned some version of, but all the different tribal groups have their own indigenous language. Are you planning going back there soon? I think currently you're located in New York City. I'd go tomorrow if I could. I knew my heart is still there. Other than the time that we've lived there, we've been there every year, so I assume that I'll go sometime next year to visit again. It's a special place, and my heart is really there. It's an incredible education and privilege to experience the birth of a country and the development of all its institutions and all of that. It's a very special and beautiful place. When you say we, Jill, who are you referring to? My husband and I are both very engaged in teamwork. He's actually headed there tonight. He's headed to East Timor? He's going there for two months to work with a local organization that you worked with while we went there. Particularly, he's focused on oil and gas development. There's oil and gas in the sea between East Timor and Australia, and there's a big dispute over who's going to get the profits from the development. What kind of work does he do? Does he see a peacemaker in the same way you are? He's a peacemaker. We have our own distinct approaches, organizations in English called Walking Together, in Tetons called Malhamatou. And they do analysis and monitoring of the development and reconstruction work that's happening there by international actors by the UN, through bilateral programs and international agencies. And as I said, he's particularly interested in the question of the oil and gas development that East Timor has a dispute with Australia over. While you're there, what spiritual support or what community support do you get? Do you attend Catholic Church while you're there? I've attended some of the masses, but the Catholic traditions don't seem to, oh, okay, I don't find them spiritually nurturing. When I was living there, there were a few quakers that I met. The New Zealand government representative was a Quaker. I'm Director of Kerry Tom was a Quaker, and we would meet together periodically for violent worship. This last time I visited, and I guess to preface it, I would say, I've really been developing meditation as a spiritual practice for the last years, and this year in particular. This summer while I was there, a small group of East Timorries, and I met together like the first violent meditation. Joe, how do you financially afford going abroad like that and being able to do your piece work? Do you get financial support from some organization or groups? In general, the answer is yes, but I don't condition my work on financial support. My personal bottom line is that I don't want to have to pay to work, but even that I don't adhere to. So a lot of the things we use are savings. I guess most people would say that we live very simply, although I don't, I find it's really a challenge to live simply in this society. But in general, yeah, I try to get some support, the work that I take from agencies and foundations that are interested in that kind of work. And what kind of agencies or foundations do support this kind of work? Well, for example, I'm on the board of an organization called the A.J. Musty Memorial Institute, and we fund non-violence training around the world. Our focus is really grassroots kind of non-violence training, trying to sustain or help non-violent movements develop. When I was in East Timor, initially we paid our own way to go there, and until I got some grants for the Peace Center was basically funding it from our savings. And then that work was primarily funded through development agencies in different countries, the German government, the Australian government, the New Zealand government. All gave us some grant money. In the U.S., I think it's more productive to try to get people who have money to contribute to the various organizations of defense. In a sense, more sustainable than the problem with foundations funding is quite often. You're stuck with this question of, are you doing the work because that's the grant that would be funded or because that's what you really think would be easier? You said the best way is to approach individuals as opposed to foundations, so I'm just wondering if there's individuals who are helping underwrite your work in East Timor? Not in East Timor, no. I guess my biggest support is my mother-in-law, she's a children's book author, and she's very temperate. It's good to marry into the right family. Joe, how long have you been married? I think about two years, I don't really...that wasn't the defining point in our relationship. What did you get married? Do you ask, sorry, East Timor? We tried to get married in East Timor, actually. We decided to get married just because, customarily, if you're living with someone in that society, you're considered married. We felt a little bit awkward introducing ourselves and husband and wife when we weren't really in actuality married. We tried to get married, but they didn't have any regulations for civil marriage yet. The head of the civil registry, which is where you would, according to their laws, would go to get married with very apologetic, but it wasn't possible. For example, we have some friends, a couple who...the man is Catholic and the woman is...it is. And they also are going to have to leave the country to get married because there's no process for a civil marriage and there's no priests that will marry them and no emuffins that will marry them. It's a big challenge for people there who don't want to...I mean, they're really the only option in the religious way. So we got married in New York. You just want to adjust us of the peace? No, we actually were married by a friend who's Indonesian, although he's lived in this country for a decade. And I guess you probably considered himself Indonesian-American, who is also very involved in East Timor Solidarity work, actually the East Timor Action Network, which is the Solidarity group here, that works with East Timor. He's a good friend and also used East Timor. What kind of minister? United Church of Christ? Is that your husband's background? My husband is an atheist and he's probably one of the most principal people I've met and has a really hard time surviving in a society that tries to define everybody as religion. I'm curious why you chose to have a religious marriage in the US. Was that for your needs or his needs to disaccommodate both of you? We didn't have a religious marriage. We were married by a friend who happens to be a minister and therefore is authorized to marry people, but it wasn't religious at all. Matter of fact, he promised us to mention the word God. Well, that's good. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're probably, in the best sense of the word, an uppity female. I think that's probably one of the problems you had with these hierarchical religions. In your relationship with your husband, is this a really good partnership for you? I think I look at it as probably the best thing that's ever happened in my life. We were friends for a long time and so we came to our love to each other through friendship. He's very supportive and believes in the same things and committed as I am to working for peace. You said that he's some kind of an engineer. What's his discipline? Professionally, he worked as an engineer designing software for medical equipment. So does he take up the math and science abilities that every relationship needs? Yeah, I think we share it somewhat. Jill, you're sitting in chair in what's called the chameleol chair. What does that involve? Actually, technically the chameleol chair for peace and justice and it's a program that's more than 20 years old was started by the Lutheran campus ministry in Milwaukee. Basically, they bring speakers who are doing different kinds of work for peace and justice and bring yours for approximately a month to Milwaukee. Basically, what we do is we speak about our work for peace and justice for different community groups, institutions, educational institutions, religious bodies. Can you give me an example of some of the places where you've spoken and what you've spoken about? I'm talking about models of mediation and the idea of developing conflict resolution methods based on local customs and cultures. I'm talking about peacemaking and my journey as a peacemaker. I'm talking about the specific rule and processes that women peacemakers are engaging in and I'm talking about non-violence and the use of non-violence and conflict situation. For example, when we get done with this interview, I'm going to be going to talk to some students at the Lutheran campus ministry that actually started this program many years ago. Last night, I was at Carroll College. I've been speaking at churches on Sunday morning. And when I came, the first thing I did, I gave a talk at Marquette University at a national conference on peace and justice about peace making and communication. What kind of response are you getting from people? Who's showing up for these things and are people excited? It varies. The conference at Marquette was a national conference. Actually, it was international and there were people from various people in academia. And I got a very positive response there. On day morning, I spoke in a church on the south side of Milwaukee and the reaction was mixed. There were some people who appreciated my remarks and some people who didn't appreciate them as much. It varies. I spoke at a Catholic elementary and middle school yesterday morning and I got a mostly positive reaction from the students. Although there was always that one or two who don't want to show that they want to engage in anything. Our young people in general and on the college campuses are young people interested in your message. Well, I just started my work here in the chair. I guess if I extrapolate also to my work in New York, where I'm doing especially a lot of counter military recruitment work, I think that there is a lot of energy and interest in college campuses. It's a lot of concern among college students about the current situation in the country and the impact that we have on the rest of the world. How long does the familial chair go? When are you done? When did you start? My first talk was on Friday so that the 23rd of September and I'll be here until the 17th of October. Jill, when you finish your month or so in Milwaukee, where do you go from there? I'll be headed up to Ashland to give a talk and facilitate workshop at Northland College. And how long will you be there? Just three or four days while I'm doing that and then I'm back to New York where I live and work with the Westchester Martin Luther King Institute for Numbah. And what kind of work do you do with them? I think counter recruiting is one of the items. Yeah, we're really trying to get alternative information into the school to help kids understand the realities of military service, the things that often get left out by recruiters, and also to help them see that there are other options and access those options. And we do now violence training. Basically, I'm trying to start a peace center now in the community where I live to help strengthen the vibrant voices for peace and justice and make our organizing more effective. Jill, I want to thank you for taking the time to spend with me. I know you've got a heavy speaking schedule. It must be quite a drain on your voice to being having to speak in public these many times. Are you an extrovert by nature? I am, fortunately. Although the challenge is less comfortable with giving a speech in that sense. As I said, I much work in popular education and methodologies that engage people in dialogue and learning together and exploring issues together rather than having one person talking to what happened. Well, I wish you well in all of your presentations down there. I hope you can visit Eau Claire. We can use your kind of good and scintillating energy. And thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. Thanks. I hope I'll be up to stop by and meet your family. ♪ ♪ Peace, peace will ♪ ♪ Peace will come ♪ ♪ Let it begin with me ♪ We need peace, and let it begin with me. Oh, my own life is all I can hope to control. Oh, let my life be lived with the good, good of my soul. Let it bring peace. Sweet peace, peace will come. Let it begin with me. Peace, peace will, peace will come. Let it begin with me, we. We need peace, and let it begin with me. Oh, my own life is all I can hope to control. Let my life be lived with the good, good of my soul. Let it bring peace. Sweet peace, peace will come. Let it begin with me. With me. With me. Today's guest has Ben Jill Sternberg, the recent speaker for the Gamaliel Chair in Peace and Justice, a program of Lutheran campus ministry in Milwaukee. You can find information and website links concerning Jill's peace studies and work in Milwaukee and in New York with Peace Brigades and with the AJ Mustee Memorial Institute for Nonviolence and on East Timor at our website, www.NorthernSpiritRadio.org. This interview was recorded on September 27, 2005. Today's program has included music by Carol Johnson called Simply Love and We Know War by John McCutchen and Peace Will Come by Tom Paxton. The theme music for Spirit in Action is "I Have No Hands but Yours" by Carol Johnson. Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeet@usa.net. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. I have no higher calls for you in peace to love and serve your neighbor. Enjoy in selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor. Enjoy in selflessness. [Music]