Spirit in Action

Sandra Lyons/Bernadine Franciscan Sisters

Our guest is Sandra Lyons of the Bernardine Franciscan Sisters. Sandra shares the roots and fruits of her life, including her years as a nurse midwife and her current passion as the director of Justice, Peace and Earthcare for her congregation.

Duration:: 58m
Broadcast on:: 12 Feb 2006
Audio Format:: mp3

I have no hands but yours to tend my sheep No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep I have no arms but yours with which to hold The ones grown weary from the struggle and weak from growing old I have no hands but yours with which to see To let my children know that I am out and out is everything I have no way to feed the hungry souls No clothes to give and make, give the ragged and the morn So be my heart, my hand, my tongue Through you I will be done The enders have I none to help undone The tangled nuts and twisted chains The strangled fearful minds Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpsmead. Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action, and progressive efforts I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Above all, I'll seek out light, love, and helping hands Being shared between our many neighbors on this planet, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life I have no way to open people's eyes Because then that you will show them how to trust the inner mind Our guest today on Spirit in Action is Sandra Lyons. She is a member of the Bernadine Francis Consisters of Reading, Pennsylvania. She joined the order in 1964 First serving as a teacher, then as a nurse, and a nurse midwife, and currently as the Director of the Justice, Peace, and Earthcare Office of her congregation She's participated in a number of demonstrations, come to an increased understanding of international justice and peace issues, and serves her community with a passionate heart Sandra, thanks for joining me for Spirit in Action. Thank you. I'm really pleased that your brother Art could bring us together when you are in town from Pennsylvania. Do you get much time away from the convent when you can go out and travel the world? Well, I have traveled the world quite a bit, mostly in my work with Justice, Peace, and Earthcare. I have been to South Africa and Zambia. I have been to El Salvador, to Brazil, to Dominican Republic All in light of looking towards peace and justice issues, and Earthcare issues How long have you been doing that in Justice, Peace, and Earthcare work? I've been doing that for about three years as an official job of my congregation, which is Bernadine Francis Consisters Did you just get plopped into that job, or did you have a buildup of a growing interest that led you there? Actually, I was invited to do the job because it was open for a few years without anyone seeking the position or to do the job, and one day at a meeting I was invited by leadership to do it, and I said, "Okay." I'm curious about how they work as opposed to how Quakers work, because Quakers use a kind of discernment process. You try and surface people's gifts, as well as the needs, and try and see what's clear to join. It's not the same as the nominating process, what procedure do you use at the Bernadine Francis Consisters? Well, I think in this case, the leadership who asked me to do this job had themselves discerned my interest in these issues, the issues of Justice, Peace, and Earthcare, and at a meeting I was participating in with them and others in leadership. The interest was shown, and they asked me. Now, the okay did involve some discernment. It wasn't like immediately I said, "Well, I'll do it." I did say, "I'll think about that, and discern over it, or pray over it." So, it's probably similar to the Quaker discernment process. When you mentioned the list of places you go, and the kind of issues you've been involved in, the witness and rallies and prayer that you've done, it sounds like the kind of thing I would love to do, although I don't think they'll let me into the convent. Has it been a long-term interest of yours? You've been part of the Bernadine Francis Consisters for, I guess, over 40 years. So, is this a new phase in your spiritual life? I think it's a broadening of my spiritual life. Early on, after being a teacher for just a couple years, I became a nurse and then a nurse midwife, and during those years I began to see the world in a broader picture. People didn't have things like I had. Even though I was a vowed religious, I had opportunities, I had white privilege. I worked with a lot of women who were poor, so I worked with a lot of women who were of different races and different religions. I realized the needs that they had and the lack of opportunities, the barriers that the world put in front of them. And I think that's when I was ready to learn about justice and how I could do something about the injustice in the world. I want to go back and trace a lot of that, but first I want to ask you about the, I guess, the scope of your job when you said that the position had been open and no one jumped at the opportunity. I had the notion that maybe you're the one person carrying the whole burden of peace, justice, and earth care for your entire congregation, and that would seem kind of frightening to me because there's a lot of peace and social justice issues that call to your heart. What is the purview of your job? First of all, I'd like to say that as a Franciscan sister, the members of my congregation should all be working toward justice, peace, and integrity of creation. But as in all communities, we need someone who focuses, who picks out the issues and encourages others to work with that issue. And so one of the issues I have been working with this year has been against CAFTA and for fair trade. I have spent a lot of time working on that issue and trying to inform congregational members, teaching them about the difference between free trade and fair trade, including having fair trade parties so they can understand it in a more relevant way and more globally. Are the people you're educating when you say your congregation you're referring to, the sisters you live with, do you reach beyond that congregation to other parishes? Actually, we, the Bernadine Franciscan sister, sponsor a college, and that is Alverna College in Reading, Pennsylvania, and I have participated not as a full faculty member, but as a guest speaker during their justice and peace classes. I went with students from Alverna College to Dominican Republic. We do 10 days of mission with our sisters who live in Santo Domingo, do a day camp for street children. And so I try to collaborate with those in the college to implement justice, peace, and earth care issues. Last year in April we had a justice piece in earth care conference for the first time in the college and I was on the committee and was also one of the presenters. And it was a very good experience and something that the students asked for again. What do you do to educate yourself to raise your awareness of these issues? How are you getting to the point where you can become the teacher? Actually, I went on several delegations. The first delegation I went on was with a group of religious women to El Salvador. And that's how I learned about the effects of CAFTA, the Central American trade agreement on the rural farmers and fishermen. So that was my first education and I learned a lot about that and came home and read about it. So I spend a lot of time on the internet looking up material about the issues and I also get several journals that help me with that. What did you do while you were down in Central America? When I was in El Salvador I was with a group of religious women. We were divided into three groups and I actually had the opportunity of meeting with and talking with women who were in a cooperative. They were called the cattle women. They had fought in the war and now they were home. They had been offered an opportunity to join a cooperative. So their cooperative was called the cattle cooperative. They learned how to work with cattle. They used them for the milk. They used them to breed. And then they learned through the cooperative leaders how to take the cattle to market and sell them and buy a younger cattle. And while I was there they had just made enough money as a cooperative of women to build a tiny little building where they were going to sell medicines for cattle and feed that they were going to use. So they had seen progress and we actually celebrated that day as the opening of their little store for cattle needs. It really is cool to watch those small steps happen. How do you work with those people? How do you end up encouraging and supporting their work? One of the things that's important to me is how do I leave a country like that and the people that I met and come back to my home? What is it that they want me to do? And having been in El Salvador, having also been in South Africa and in Zambia, questions I always ask the people with whom I met were what do you want me to do? How can I help you most? The answers were always go back to your country and talk to your politicians. They are killing us with their foreign policy. And so for me coming back to my country reading more about the problems that the people are experiencing in the rural areas of Central and South America and in Africa, I do come back and I have gone to Washington DC to lobby with my senators and representatives. And that to me is what the people of rural Africa and of rural South Africa and El Salvador have asked me to do. That certainly sounds like a valuable step in it. Is there no law or rule that forbids religious women from being involved in politics? None that I know of. I have spent many days going to lobby in Washington DC. So I go to the rally, I go to the teach-in days and then usually there's a lobby day. Even with the group that I participate with in Bread for the World, there usually is an annual conference and then it's followed by a lobby day. So there's conferencing and education. What should we tell the senators and representatives? And I've participated in those. I've actually been in my representatives office speaking directly with him myself. Most of the time with the senators, it's with an aide. I mean I've felt privileged to actually be speaking directly with my representative despite the fact that he doesn't really do what I'd like him to do, but at least he knows what I want him to do. What are your senators and representatives there from Reading, PRINCELLVANIA, where your convent is located? What direction is their politics? All three are Republicans and one is especially very conservative. Have you always been this wild-eyed radical that you appear to be now? Have you always been of this turn of mind or what was the family you were raised in like? I think I grew up very conservative. I grew up in a family as the oldest child of a Catholic mother and a non-Catholic father who didn't practice an official religion. I was a very obedient child, but always very responsible. I was the oldest of five brothers and sisters and therefore very responsible for all of them, and not because I had to be, but because I loved children. When I was growing up, I wanted to be a mother and have ten children. Now, how that changed, I'm not really sure. Eventually I became a midwife and delivered 500 babies, so I did have a lot of children, even though I didn't have to stay up with them at night. Maybe you got the best of both worlds there. I'm sure I did. I do believe my whole development of global awareness was a very slow one that came over time, and I think the peak moment for me was doing midwifery work when I, as I mentioned earlier, began to see people who did not have the same advantage as me. So, with my experiences in other countries, I actually really learned a lot and began to see the world as a more integrated place where all of us are interdependent, and not just the United States is the major country or the richest country who has all the power. I see all the people of the other countries and realize the importance of their values as well, and I think I was a late bloomer. And you're continuing to bloom, right? You just got on this committee and are moving forward. It is wonderful that they give you a job description that I certainly would envy, and I think many of our listeners will envy. What do you trace as the spiritual seeds that were planted in you at a young age that seem to be bearing fruit right now? I think the fact that even though my father wasn't Catholic, we did practice believing together. My father had a great faith, even though he reiterated many times that he didn't believe it had to be in an institutional church. And even though I participated in the institutional church, I looked to him for many of my faith beliefs. I admired how he believed, even though today he would be turning over in his grave if he heard of the way that I want to be out there and help people and turn the world around. But he would also look to me, I believe, with wide eyes and be proud of what I was doing because I was living my beliefs. And I think also becoming a Bernadine Franciscan's sister helped me because St. Francis of Assisi looked to non-violence and peace and to the integrity of all of the earth as an interrelated part so that it isn't just me as a human being who is important, but it is how I relate my relationships with other people, with God, and with all of earth. And I think with that whole spiritual development is how I came to be interested in justice, peace, and earth care because you can't have one without the other. They're totally interdependent. I believe your father was a military man. Is there some point in which you went through just an uncomfortable disjuncture with his job? When I was young, I didn't. I just believed that he had a job and he loved his job. I think when I began to wonder about my dad's occupation in the Navy was the time when I began in 1998 to participate in the rallies at the School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Georgia. I realized at that time that the School of the Americas was teaching military men from other countries, especially Central and South American countries. Today, a lot of Colombians, how to torture, how to disappear, and how to create paramilitaries that would create civil unrest in those South American countries. It seems to me that the United States foreign policy encourages dependence in all of these small and lesser developed countries. And one of the ways they do it is by utilizing leaders who are willing to do corrupt things, are willing to allow their citizens, their civilians to be tortured, allow them to be disappeared for other ends. And those ends might be to get military guns or other military supplies. I think that's when I began to wonder, well, you know, what was my dad actually doing when he was in the Navy? Was he helping countries in this way? Although usually the Navy isn't considered one of those areas, it's more the Army, but who knows? Of course, the Navy just has big guns that throw bombs, and they don't have to see where they land particularly. I think probably the Air Force and the Navy have always felt a little bit cleaner because they didn't see the blood directly that they've been spilling. Does this create any dissonance for you as regards to your father or about your upbringing? I don't think it really does. I want to believe that people live what their values are, but they learn those values in different ways. I don't believe that my father really understood what he was doing. He was probably so inoculated with the naval spirit. He did firmly believe he was being patriotic in serving his country, but I, however, believe I am being patriotic in serving my country when I question my country and my leaders. Would you like to sing "We Shall Overcome"? [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Sandra, how common is your viewpoint in your congregation? Is this widespread? Are you one of a small minority? Or is this the kind of thing that when you go off to a demonstration in Washington that if they're able everybody would love to go with you? I would say it isn't real common in my congregation. That is what I feel is one of my jobs. I feel that I need to learn how to motivate and imbue members of my congregation in the global justice piece and earth care issues. I feel that it hasn't been concentrated enough. Maybe people have become a little apathetic or maybe it isn't that. They're busy with their jobs and they feel that I am the director of justice piece in earth care and maybe should do that work. Whereas I feel that all of us need to participate in justice piece and care of the earth. And so I take that as a deep responsibility of mine to try and encourage others. So every time I go to a rally or a seminar or a workshop, I try to invite at least one other person to go with me. And if that person accepts, then I believe the seeds are there and someday those seeds will bloom and those people will perhaps be as invigorated by the whole job as me. I believe that you were in Washington DC for the recent, dare I say, protest the recent rally on September 24th, the end of the war now and bring them home rally there. Did you go alone or were there other people from your congregation who joined you? One other sister from my congregation joined me and actually I went on a bus with democracy and action and the friends group from my Berks County area. So we had a lovely time together and we got to know each other. The rally was very interesting. There were over 300,000 people at the rally according to the CNN news. It always invigorates me when I go to these types of rallies because I see so many people who have the same value as I do. The crowd is so diverse but everyone is there with the same, at least one of the same values and in this case it was end of the war now and bring the troops home. There were other people who had other values added to that or other intentions. There was a group of women holding signs that said war is indecent. And as I passed them by and looked more closely, none of them were dressed from the waist up showing the indecency of war in many different descriptions but they really spoke what they meant and I thought that was very interesting. But the people that I see are just intriguing to me. It reminds me that we are all in solidarity with one another in communion in some way, shape, or form. And so it's wonderful to see all the patriotic people who participate in these events. Did you see anyone at the Washington March who from outward appearances you might have described as conservative? Usually there are a lot of religious sisters who participate in the rallies for peace but I don't really notice that they are, I'm not sure how you're looking at conservative. There were people who were in a counter movement telling us in effect that we were unpatriotic and that they in fact were right. These were people who were countering us and saying well there should be war. We need to retaliate. People should die. That's the impression that I got from the counter movement but of course they weren't very numerous and so they didn't really get their message across. Can you describe any of the other people or the witnesses that people served when they were there at that march? Oftentimes there are a group of Buddhists who participate and so it's very obvious who they are because they do dress and they are distinct attire. There are college students and high school students. Usually they are dressed in t-shirts that recognize their schools so you know what group is there. There were other Francis Consisters there and from different congregations of religious. There was a group of women who were dressed very outlandish but did get their point across also. They were dressed in red and silver. They had huge bras on over their clothing and then they had very erectile missiles between their legs. So to me it was a very interesting critique of the males who run our country and are so desirous of sending missiles every place. So many of us got a big kick out of that expression of their understanding of war and those who lead us in war. I remember that August 1963 with 200,000 marched on our TV. The moment was magic. There were dreams in the air. My mom watched and wondered. She said I wish I was there. But there were babies to diaper and the whole house to clean. She watched the world change on that black and white screen. She was one in a million. She played her small part. She carried that banner high in her heart. Always carried that banner high in her heart. ♪ And she taught me the bible of a chapter in verse of the meek shall inherit the last shall be first. She said God leaves God's work to me and to you. When you're meek and you're ready, what will you do? And though she never traveled far from her door, she watched the world change in the children she bore. She said you are one in a million. You each have your part. You must carry that banner high in your heart. Always carry that banner high in your heart. And those children she scattered like ships on the sea. Each mounting adventures she couldn't foresee. I never once doubted what she said was true. I've seen miracles mounting. Small victories counting. I can't help recounting these things that we do. Now each mother's day is sundown. I look to the chair. Now it's fifteen years empty, but I still feel her there. So this year I traveled as her eldest son to Washington March because she couldn't come. And I marched to the future in a million mom's seat. I was marching for her. I was marching for me. I was one in a million playing my part. I carried that banner high in my heart. I was one in a million playing my part. And I carried her banner in an elegant manner. I carried her banner high in my heart. [piano music] [piano music] [piano music] [piano music] [piano music] Is participation in this kind of march or a taking part in the School of the Americas watch? Is that the kind of thing that'll earn you some kind of censure from the top of the Catholic Church at this point? It seems to me under John Paul II he had a pretty clear "pro-peace" statement. It looks kind of bleakly conservative from the top at this point. Is this kind of thing that you can get locked up in yourself or a year because you're being too active? I don't really agree that that could happen. I think the activities that I work for and in are peace activities. I'm not there to pull down the church. The church should be following the Gospel of Jesus, which we all know. Jesus was a compassionate, a peaceful, and a healing person. Oftentimes the institutional church forgets about the following of Jesus in the gospel. But I think the people that I work with more often than not remember the message of Jesus, and I think that's very important. Jesus was a peaceful person, and he did everything with non-violence. That's how I want to be also. I want to imitate that. I don't want to be like the institutional church, which is condemning and which sets lots of laws and regulations for everyone. I don't think Jesus would act in that way. I think the activities that I participate in are not against the church. Even the institutional church, I don't believe, would find me flawed in that light, at least not at the moment. Let me just be clear. You're the director of the Office of Justice, Peace, and Earth Care for your congregation. That means that that's really your full-time job. That you get to spend 40 hours a week doing that, or 80 hours a week. I'm sure it's a job that's not done in 40. Actually, I have another job. I am the staff educator and risk manager in the nursing home for our sisters in our congregation. That is my job on a nine-to-five basis, but my justice, peace, and earth care job goes well beyond that. I have to integrate those two jobs. Where I work, it's really fun sometimes to try to do peace, justice, and earth care teaching with the staff with whom I work. And so it is easy to integrate it often. The staff where I work are very interested in some of the issues because no one has ever taken the time to teach them those issues. I had a fair trade party a couple weeks ago. I actually even had it for our resident sisters, and they were so grateful to learn about the difference between free trade and fair trade, and were enthralled with the little videos that I showed, one from Africa and one from Nicaragua. I think working in justice, peace, and earth care can be done in any setting because you have a ready-made audience to sort of practice on. Are you able to implement principles of fair trade, and I guess just general responsible living into the group you live with? I'm kind of thinking in terms of earth care, so do you eat organic food? Do you drink fair trade coffee? Do you have solar or wind power, or at least good passive solar setup? Well, when you live with other people, it's hard sometimes to implement in a group all of the values that you have. The sisters that I live with are very good at recycling, and we save almost everything now, and I take them to a recycling plant, which is a non-profit organization, not too far from us. We try to use the local farmers' markets, especially for our fruits and vegetables, rather than buying them at the giant or redner's or whatever Safeway market there is. In my house, we only use fair trade coffee, so we, several years ago, stopped buying coffee from the regular supermarket and have purchased fair trade coffee, and that's all we drink. When I have meetings, I serve fair trade coffee, rather than using anything else. I refuse to use bottled water, because I think water is a sacred gift that God gave to us, and I cannot see selling water to anyone. Also, using bottled water allows us to have too much plastic thrown in the landfill. Plastic takes for a long time to deteriorate. So, some things I can implement in my home and in my work, but other things I can't. I don't have solar power or wind power, because the house that I live in is rented from the archdiocese, and so I can't change the things that the house is built of or made of or the electricity there, but I can live a more simple life. And I think that's one of the things that I've been trying to do, live a more simple life and a more intentional life, being mindful of things that I use in people that are around me and how all of those things are interrelated. It sounds to me like the change that you've gone through in your exposure to this work and more, that it's been changing you. It sounds to me like everyone in your congregation needs the opportunity to serve in your position and to feel the weight of that concern. Is it the kind of thing that could be long-term, your responsibility, or is it something that gets rotated around after a while? It isn't a job that's rotated around generally. If someone is interested in the position as I accepted the invitation, oftentimes that person can stay in the job for a long time, although as you mentioned, it would be good for others to be in the position, because for me, it has been a life-changing event. So every time I learn something new, I want to be able to live the value that I have taken from that. When I lived in Romania as a nursing educator, my comfort meal was always McDonald's after they got at McDonald's in Cluj, Romania. Now that I have learned that McDonald's defarists land and rainforest areas to pasture their cows so that I can have a hamburger, that has changed me a lot. I really have not gone to a McDonald's in three years now because I learned about that. And I try to teach others, but of course we can teach people information, but we can't implant that or imbue that in their lifestyle. That is something that needs to come to people of their own, but I do continue to model that for people. Some day it may become a value for them as well. Is the Earthcare part of your justice piece in Earthcare a long-term name, or is that relatively new? Earthcare is a general value in churches. I think I've been undergoing a revolution in the past 20 years. When the directorship of this position was opened back in the 80s, I believe it was, maybe even earlier, the person who began this position immediately called it justice piece and Earthcare. I would call it more integrity of the Earth because I think beyond just caring for the Earth, we need to make sure that the diversity of the Earth is something that will always be there for future generations. Instead of using it all up today, it needs to be something that is there always. The only way we can do that is by believing in our heart that the Earth is integral to all things and that without it, we wouldn't have culture, we wouldn't have politics, we wouldn't have economics, we wouldn't have religions in many cases. Because Earth, to me, is like the center and all the other systems revolve around it. I'm in total agreement with you on this stuff, Sandra, but I'm also aware that there are a number of religious settings. When you start talking like you do about the connection with the Earth at the center, people start accusing you of being a tree hugger or you're worshiping the Earth goddess or this kind of thing. How does it fit in with the Catholic theology that's part of your congregation? When Jesus spoke and acted, he always related to the things of the Earth. He talked about the seeds, he talked about the fig tree, anything to how people lived and helped them throughout their lives being as farmers. He brought into the spiritual realm, and St. Francis also was a person who believed in the integrity and the importance of all of Earth. St. Francis looked at birds, the wolves, as part of the beauty of God. And even the little story about St. Francis and the worm, one day he was walking along the road, and he saw a worm on the road in front of him, and he picked it up, and he moved it over to the side of the road so it wouldn't get stepped on. One of the Franciskin friars who was with him, asked him why he did that, and he said, "Because Jesus spoke in the gospel about I am a worm and no man." And as I looked at that worm, I saw God, God created that worm, and therefore that worm demands respect. Just like you demand my respect, the worm as well. So all parts of the Earth are important to God, because God created them. God created them for us to understand the beauty of life that was given to us, not as something that we should have dominion over, not as something that we are only stewards of, but something that we realize our gifts to us. And are a part of us. You also ask me, "How do people react when I speak like this?" Well, I have to admit that I try to be very gentle in how I speak. I try never to condemn someone because they're drinking bottled water, or because they go to McDonald. As I see my sisters doing such things, I realize somehow I need to model to them, and I try not to preach because preaching isn't going to get me anyplace. Preaching is not going to get the message to them. It might even cause some resistance. And so, in a small educational session, I might talk about it without a condemning attitude, because I don't think that's going to help anyone. One of the steps that I took back in 1976 was to become a vegetarian. I got so in commune with all these animals that I couldn't eat them anymore. Actually, my motivation wasn't exactly that, but is there that kind of sensitivity that you feel rising in you? I have to say I eat a lot less meat than I used to eat. I am not a vegetarian, and I don't think it would work in the congregation where I am because I live with other people. And we take turns cooking meals every day. I could cook something vegetarian, but I would also have to be respectful of what someone else cooked for me, so that I couldn't live isolated in the group in that way. I have learned a lot of things, however, about the importance of food and how people are, what they eat, people become more understanding of how animals are treated in the food processing business. I think I have a lot more respect now for the small farmers who allow their cattle to graze on pastures rather than the torture that some animals do go through in agribusiness farms. As a matter of fact, as I was driving on Route 94 the other day, coming here, I was pleased to see the small farms where cattle were grazing, and it reminded me of how important that is for creating sustainability in our culture and helping people to keep the food local and to utilize the food that's in their area. So I'm really pleased that I saw that and it reinforced for me the need to encourage the small farmers in my own state of Pennsylvania and help them in ways that might make it easier for them to maintain their farms. I'd like to revisit some of the path that got you to where you are now, Sandra. First you were an elementary teacher for a few years, and after that you got involved in nursing, and eventually I think you spent seven years as a nurse midwife. Even though I'm sure that it's perfectly appropriate, there's part of me maybe from my Catholic upbringing, or maybe just from the times that I grew up in, which make me squeamish at the idea of a nun, of a sister seeing naked parts of anybody's body, a woman, whether it's a woman or not. I know that that's maybe kind of a weird view, but I have a feeling a lot of people share that kind of prejudice. A lot of people share that kind of thing like you can't blow your nose around a nun or something like that. Now, obviously, you're just a real person, okay? But you told me something about the name change when you became a nurse midwife. Well, actually, my name changed after I became a nurse because my specialty field was obstetrics, so I worked in labor and delivery, nursery and postpartum, and one of the things that I did on a regular basis was teach childbirth classes. So, I didn't think the name that I had been originally given when I became a sister, which was Sister Marie Immaculate, spoke to the work that I was doing, and so I thought maybe I needed to change my name, so I did get permission to go back to my birth name, which was Sandra. I don't think it would have changed how people really looked upon me because once I met with people and women came to me for their midwifery services, I had good relationships with those people. I really gathered many patients who came to me or clients who came to me by word of mouth. That was basically how women came to receive services, OB and GYN services from me, so I don't think it was really an issue of prejudice that happened. The women who came liked me. I had many young girls who were brought to me by their mothers because the receptionist had referred them to me, and many of the mothers stayed in the rooms for examinations and actually left saying to me, "Oh my goodness, I learned so much from you. I'm glad I came and brought my daughter to you." So I think it was a growing experience for me and a way for me to help teach others about themselves and to empower women. Being a sister, I don't think had, maybe they trusted me more. I don't really know that, but I didn't seem to have any problems. Women really did learn a lot, and I learned a lot from them as well. You did childbirth education, and so when you're talking about these girls coming to you, are you talking about prepubescent children, or are you talking about kids and their teens, or are you talking about young women? Actually, I'm talking about all of those, so I did childbirth education for women who were pregnant, but I also did postpartum classes and GYN care, so young women would come to me just for their very first GYN examination. And I would teach them about themselves, rather than just doing something to them, a pap smear or a breast exam, I actually taught them about themselves, which was very enlightening to them and helpful. You know, I think part of my view about how Catholic women and particularly nuns would have to not think about body parts is rooted in maybe even traditional Irish in the homeland. Women couldn't address in front of her husband. Obviously that we've come a long way since those days, at least I hope we have. When you're doing childbirth education or obstetrics in general, is it for Bolton to talk about birth control? I don't believe that it is. I think it's very important that women know their options, and they need to know how those options work. As a Catholic sister, I actually couldn't provide birth control, but I could teach about it so that women could know what their options were. I'm wondering, Sandra, if we can enlighten me and perhaps our listeners to what it actually means to be a Bernadine Francis Consister. I think that you first got involved with this order back in 1964, and that was close to the time of Vatican II. A lot of non-Catholic listeners won't even necessarily know what Vatican II is, but can you describe a little bit of what you actually joined? Well, I joined a religious congregation, which is a group of women who dedicate themselves to service of some kind, service in the church. And in my case, it was a Franciscan order of sisters following the rule of St. Francis of Assisi. We spend a year in postulancy, where we just learn generally about the congregation and religious life. Then we spent a year in Arnovichit, where we learned specific things about Franciscanism and the vows that we would be taking, the vows of poverty, celibacy and obedience. And then the next five years, we would take those vows annually for one year, so that at any time at the end of each of those years, we could opt out of the religious congregation that we were looking to become a part of. Does that mean that after those five years are gone, you can't opt out anymore, or does that mean you get a dishonorable discharge? Actually, at the end of those five temporary years of vows, we make our final vows, which are simple vows that we publicly make in front of a group of people. It's a public witness that we give. But there are people who have, after that time, been exceptions and have been allowed to leave with special dispensations. But generally, people, after that time, do stay. What was your biggest motivation in joining the congregation? I know there's times in the middle ages. People got involved as priests because it was actually a job. It's because they couldn't inherit the family land and so on. And I think your motivation was totally different than that. Actually, I would say I was very naive. I was a young woman after high school, and I had seen wonderful modeling of Bernadine Franciscan sisters. During my high school education. And somehow, I wanted to be like those women. They seemed to be joyful. They were responsible women, and they provided service. Service for women and men, children. And I thought that was something that I wanted to do, to dedicate my life to doing something that was an imitation of Jesus in the Gospels. Why do you describe yourself as having been naive? Well, because I think when one goes into any field or any area, one does not know all the ramifications of that. So, a woman who gets married does not, I don't think, know all of the ramifications and all of the expectations and situations she'll be involved in. And the same with me. When I became a sister, I really didn't know what I was going to do, but as time went on, things evolved. And I became, first of all, an educator and then a nurse. And now the person who is directing justice piece and earth care in the congregations. I think if we look at things too hard in the beginning, we oftentimes fail to make the step. And I think for me, probably being a little naive in the beginning was something that was good for me, because I may not have taken the risk of joining in congregation, knowing all of the things that were ahead of me. However, they were all opportunities by which I could grow, and for that I'm grateful. You describe yourself as living in a house with some other women, how many of you are there in the house, and how big is your congregation, how big is the convent, the group that's right there in Reading? I live in a home with two other sisters, so there are three of us. One person works in pastoral ministry in our parish church, one person works in our college, and I work in our nursing home and do justice piece in earth care activities. Our mother house is in Reading, Pennsylvania, and there are probably in our congregation, I believe, now about 300 of us nationally in the United States, and another hundred in our province in Brazil. How does that compare with the size of the group when you joined it back in 1964? When I joined in 1964 there were about a thousand of us in our congregation, those years were actually our peak years in all congregations of religious women. Can you clear up some of the misconceptions that maybe I and others have about what it means to live in a woman's community? I don't think that you're isolated from the world in the same way that some nuns maybe were in the past, at like in Cozat in Les Misérables by Victor Hugo. She's isolated, doesn't see the outside world. Franciscans have always been workers in the world. You're allowed to mix with the world. You said that on the trip, for instance, to Washington, D.C., you were riding a bus with the friends meeting folks near you. Are you allowed to work with other religious people, or does it have to be fairly limited contact? Actually Vatican II in the 60s encouraged inter-religious groups to come together, and women religious who are in evangelical groups or apostolic groups are part of the world. We are there to serve others and to grow in our spirituality with and among others so that we are a part of the world which is important for us. Many years ago congregations were more strict in how people could go out and mix with other people, but over time we have become much more open to the needs of being interrelated and having relationships with all of God's people. You're here in Eau Claire actually visiting your brother. Are you allowed to do this for a week at a time, a couple days at a time? Do you get paid vacations? I do get paid vacation in my job, and I'm allowed three weeks of vacation every year. This happens to be the first week of vacation that I've actually taken since July when our new year starts. Although I have been on several workshops and seminars and have also been in my classes which are in Indiana. So I keep quite busy in traveling, but always have my home base. You're paid vacation like when you come to Eau Claire, and then for work you get to go traveling to Central America, Dominican Republic, Africa and so on, right? That's right. Do you think they would for sure turn me down if I wanted to join your congregation? Well I think one of the first requirements is that you are female, so you probably wouldn't even be sent an application. Well Sandra, this has been a wonderful visit. I really do envy you your job and your work, and it's a delight to see you with your grand nephew here too. I've certainly known a lot of wonderful Catholics through my years, but it is something else to enrich me to think of a sister who actually loves and nurtures and brings so many children into the world. Well thank you Mark. I enjoyed the interview, and I hope all goes well for you in the future. You've been listening to an interview with Sandra Mayans of the Bernadine Francis Consisters. You can find more information about them via our website at www.NorthernSpiritRadio.org. Today's program included two songs. One in a Million is by John McCutchen, and the second is We Shall Overcome, sung by Joan Baez. The theme music for Spirit in Action is "I Have No Hands but Yours" by Carol Johnson. Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeet@usa.net. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. I have no higher cause for you than this. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy in selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor, enjoy in selflessness. [MUSIC]