Spirit in Action

Paula Tibbs

Paula Tibbs is a member of Eau Claire's First Presbyterian Church clearly open to the direction of the Spirit. Her passionate concern for the people of the Congo and experiece as Elder for Mission for her church has led her to head toward seminary this coming year.

Duration:: 59m
Broadcast on:: 08 Jan 2006
Audio Format:: mp3

I have no hands but yours to tend my sheep. No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep. I have no arms but yours with which to hold. The ones grown weary from this struggle and weak from growing old. I have no voice but yours with which to see. To let my children know that I am out and out is everything. I have no way to feed the hungry souls. No clothes to give or make it and the more. So be my heart, my hand, my tongue through you and will be done. The indoors have I none to help I'm done. Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpsmeade. Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action and progressive efforts. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Above all, I'll seek out light, love and helping hands, being shared between our many neighbors on this planet, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. I have no way to open people's eyes, except that you will show them how to trust the inner mind. My guest today on Spirit in Action is Paula Tibbs. Paula is a member of Eau Claire's first Presbyterian Church, clearly open to the direction of the Spirit. Her passionate concern for the people of the Congo and her experience as elder permission for her church has led her to head towards seminary in this coming year. Paula's path raised C and V, Christmas and vacation Bible school, Presbyterian, a sojourn with the Catholics, but eventually finding a home with Eau Claire's first Presbyterian Church is not front page news, but it speaks deeply of the way God's hand moves among us. For example, her useless French major in college led her years later to a deep concern for the French-speaking people of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Good morning Paula, thanks for joining me for Spirit in Action. Thank you very much, I'm happy to be here. You're not a nationally known personality, which is exactly why it's important that you be here to speak, because you're a person who's on the path of Spirit. Eric, the Minister at the First Presbyterian Church, referred you to me in part because of what you do for your work, but in part where you're headed. I think you're heading off to seminary before too long. When do you hope to do that? Well, if I'm accepted, school starts in Louisville August 22nd, so I would be hoped to be down there at that time. And why, Louisville? Louisville, well, it's one of the 12 Presbyterian seminaries. It's also close to the National Headquarters of the Church, where I hope to work or somehow have a relationship with the World Wide Ministries Division. And it's a good seminary. Pastor Eric came from Louisville, so that's a very good recommendation. Evidently, you identify as a Presbyterian, how long have you been Presbyterian? Well, I was baptized as a Presbyterian as a child, as a baby. But I don't really consider myself part of a church until we came to Eau Claire in 1994, and I came to First Presbyterian Church here, and I felt like I was home. That's when I date my Presbyterian adventure. You said you were baptized Presbyterian, but you didn't consider yourself Presbyterian. What do you mean by that? My mother's family was not religious at all. My father's family was Scottish, so their church was Presbyterian, so if there were babies, they were baptized as a Presbyterian. But the only person who actually went to church, my father's mother had died many years before, so there was really nobody involved in bringing us to church. We went to church on Easter because we had new clothes, had to go someplace, and we went into the summer vacation Bible school. So I consider as V and E people, rather than C and E, which is Christmas in Easter. But other than that, most of the time we didn't go to church. And what were the reasons that you went to church, and how long did this last end to your life? As I look back, I find a lot of different influences. My step-grandmother was Catholic, and sometimes she'd come and grab me for mass, and I'd have to look for my shoes and a scarf, because that was back when you had to cover your head. And one time, when I was in high school, I was walking out on the street, and a woman stopped and said, "God told me to talk to you." Okay, she went to assembly of Godchurch, and I got to know her, I went to church with her. When Jehovah Witness people came to my house, they came in several times, and we talked about their religion. I got to know Mooneys, I got to know Latter-day Saints the same way. So the curiosity, not the curiosity, the drive to be part of a church was always there, but until I came to a Claire, I didn't find my home. Were your parents, were their values, profound influences on your life? The earliest influence was probably my mother's parents, who came from Finland. They were actually communist and atheist. They had been raised in the Lutheran Church in Finland, but they turned their backs on it because of what the church was doing. But they still maintained their moral values, and I never really have accepted that they were actually atheist, even though they said that. Because the things they promoted, honesty, integrity, sharing were very much part of the Christian tradition, the Christian message that we find in Acts, for example, the Book of Acts, what the apostles were doing. So I can't believe that they really didn't want to know God, even if they didn't know how to do this. And though we never talked about it, because they were both gone by the time I was seven, this was very much a part of my moral structure. All these different aspects, integrity, honesty, and the idea that everybody has a right to certain basic things like food and clean water, safety, we have to share these. Part of the sharing aspect that my grandfather did was the fact that he was manager of the co-op for Wisconsin and Upper Michigan. So the idea that we all pool our things, and we share, was a big part of the influence that he left. Evidently from your point of view, when someone leads such a morally exemplar life, it means that they've got some deep connection to the divine. It means that somehow they're on that deep spiritual path. Do you see any kind of distinction between being religious and being spiritual? Obviously your grandparents chose not to be religious. Is that a contradiction? Can you be spiritual without being religious? Well, mainline churches to the contrary, I think you can. I could never take it upon myself to make any kind of a judgment about whether a person is acceptable to God or not. Whether they're part of a church, or not part of a church, part of a religion, or not part of a religion. So I am not in any position to say this person is not acceptable. So you live your life according to what you've been called to do, partly by your past and partly by what you've learned, and partly by what you hear God tell you. So along the way, I guess while you were with your parents, you were probably still Presbyterian more or less, more in absentia than by practice. Did you ever commit to another religion along the way before coming to Eau Claire? When I was in college, my roommate and a lot of our friends were Catholic, and I started going to Mass, which was very familiar because my step-grandmother, when I was little, used to take me to Mass. So this was a comfortable place, and I eventually joined the Catholic Church. I loved the ritual. I loved the history of it. In some of the rituals were so meaningful. The priest, who was prostrate in front of the cross at Easter, and was stretched out as a hero on a cross, was a very moving thing, singing the Mass. But their policies for the rest of the world, American Catholic Church, was its own entity, but the policy of the Catholic Church and the rest of the world seemed so harmful. I couldn't support this as a church. I couldn't stay there. And so I left that church, and I basically wondered, listening for God now and then, but not having a place to call home. Do you have any of the specifics of how you thought the Catholic Church was harmful to the rest of the world? I'm not trying to bash Catholics here at all. I'm just trying to identify what was the dissonance that you had, what kind of things spoke that incongruence with deep religious practice. Well, back in the 70s, one of the big things was and still is birth control. I look at this and I understand that the Catholic Church would support heart repair. It would support medical assistance for a lot of things. My heart does these things that we bring on ourselves, but for some reason they will not support medical assistance for preventing children. And I don't understand why, but this is apparently what they do. And I came to the realization as much as I understand the value of a priest, Presbyterian view is that we are all our own priest. We are all our own connection to God. We don't need another intermediary to do this for us. We can do this ourselves. That's why we're the Reformed Church and not the Catholic Church. Where did you go after you left Catholicism? Oh, in the wilderness, wandering in the wilderness. When I look back now, I can see that God has been leading me all my life. But at the time, I didn't realize it. You would hear little messages and you'd go there. When I was married, my husband was very angry with the church. We didn't go. My son wasn't baptized until he was nine years old. So when we came to Eclair from Kenosha, I said I have to go back to church. This was my message. Now I needed to go back to church. I needed to bring my son with me. And so we came to First Presbyterian Church and there I was home. I came to the church at first day and I heard the message. The sermon was very good. Dr. Wilson was preaching. And after the service, Alice Linahan came up and took my hand, said my name is Alice Linahan. Welcome to our church. And I knew this was going to be my home church. And God had a job for me to do here at this church. When I came to this church, I did not even realize I was on a journey, a spiritual journey. So this was where I've discovered so many things. I look at it and I think that the light that illuminates your forward path also sheds even more light on your backward path. So since I've been part of this church, I've come to see how God has been leading me ever since I was a little kid. He was there and I didn't even know it. Decisions that should have been difficult, changing my major. It wasn't difficult because the answer was there. The spirit was already telling me 30 years ago. This is what you have to do because you'll be at this point. And this is what you're going to need. It's amazing. ♪ God my feet ♪ ♪ While I run this ring ♪ ♪ Oh glory ♪ ♪ God my feet ♪ ♪ While I run this ring ♪ ♪ Oh glory ♪ ♪ God my feet ♪ ♪ Oh while I run this ring ♪ ♪ 'Cause I don't want to run this ♪ ♪ Race in vain ♪ ♪ Race in vain ♪ ♪ Stand by me ♪ ♪ Oh while I run this ring ♪ ♪ Oh glory ♪ ♪ Stand by me ♪ ♪ While I run this ring ♪ ♪ Oh glory ♪ ♪ Stand by me ♪ ♪ Oh while I run this ♪ ♪ Race ♪ ♪ 'Cause I don't want to run this ♪ ♪ Racing day, racing day ♪ ♪ Oh my hair ♪ ♪ While I run this way ♪ ♪ Oh my hair ♪ ♪ While I run this way ♪ ♪ Oh my hair ♪ ♪ Oh my hair ♪ ♪ While I run this way ♪ ♪ 'Cause I don't want to run this ♪ ♪ Racing day, racing day ♪ ♪ I'm your child ♪ ♪ While I run this way ♪ ♪ I'm your child ♪ ♪ While I run this way ♪ ♪ I'm your child ♪ ♪ While I run this way ♪ ♪ 'Cause I don't want to run this way ♪ ♪ Racing day, racing day ♪ ♪ God my feet ♪ ♪ Oh Lord ♪ ♪ While I run this way ♪ ♪ Oh my God my feet ♪ ♪ While I run this way ♪ ♪ Oh Lord God my feet ♪ ♪ While I run this way ♪ ♪ 'Cause I don't want to run this ♪ ♪ Racing day, racing day ♪ - You told me before, Paula, that originally you were an English major in college and that somehow you got segued over into being a French major. Has this served you at all in your life? - Well, having a French major, I ended up in Europe for a couple of years practicing French. I came back, went back to school to get credits for what I had done in Europe, went to Norway. From Norway, I went to the University of Milwaukee where I met my husband. Now his family is from Eau Claire, so when they retired, we came up to Eau Claire. So having this degree has brought me to Eau Claire, but I haven't used it. I did not use it until 1998 when a minister from the Democratic Republic of Congo landed at our church because he needed a place to stay. He spoke French, it gave me a chance to practice and we developed a friendship over the past seven, eight years. - What led you particularly to connect with this guy from Congo? Isn't that kind of a remote world? Something very different than what you're used to? Why did you particularly connect with him? - At the time I was a deacon. Our board of deacons is mainly into member care and what I felt called to do with him because I knew French was a kind of a ministry of encouragement. He was going to school in Atlanta because of the Civil War in Congo. He had not spoken to his family for three months. He was very concerned. He started having some health concerns and I felt called to offer him encouragement through all these difficult things for him to know that there were people watching. There were people paying attention to what was going on and maybe somehow I could bring his information to other people. I've had the honor of his friendship now for these many years. I also had the honor of typing his dissertation for his doctoral thesis and both of these concerned the history and the situation in his country in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The history tells about the bad things our country has done that have affected his country. Our support of Mobutu who basically robbed his country of billions and billions of dollars. We supported him because he allowed us to have facilities in his country to spy on Uganda and other communist places. So we supported this horrible fascist dictator because of our fight against communism and the people have not really recovered from Mobutu's reign. There's so much poverty, unbelievable poverty. Dr. Kuzari is a professor at the Presbyterian University in Cananga. His wife has to carry water every day for their family. How many professors' wives in Eau Claire have to carry water? I come to hear about how they eat once a day. Breakfast is a little bit of leftover cornmeal and coffee, lunch is a few peanuts. The one meal is in the evening. The first time I was invited to dinner with him, we had several people from our congregation, including a family with children. The young man, Jeff Mossig, asked Reverend Kuzari, "What do the children do in your country?" And Kuzari said, "Well, after school, they come and they play soccer and they do their homework." And Jess said, "Well, then they're just like us." And Kuzari said, "No, they're not like you. When they come home, they are hungry. They have not eaten yet. They don't get to eat until six o'clock. They're not like you." That affected me enormously. Now, when I turn on the tap, I'm aware of the fact that I did not have to carry this water. I have a refrigerator because I have electricity all day long. He doesn't have electricity. Their school has electricity three hours a day, from 7 a.m. to 10 a.m. They have an outhouse. They don't have sanitation. He was amazed. This last visit, he did not realize we had underground pipes for sanitation. This was an amazing thing for him. We take so much for granted. And worse than that, we think it's our right to have these things. And it's not. This is our burden. God has given us these things, and we have to show him what we're going to do with them. One of the projects we have done in our churches to support students going to university over in Congo. The tuition is $250 a year. That's nothing. We pay $5,000. That would support 20 students, for one student here. Part of what I have done as elder permission in my church is to try to bring the different missions of the church in front of the congregation and to bring these needs. So part of what I do is to exart. All the world's so big and I'm so small, it hardly seems I matter at all. Sometimes I think I'd like to do something to help out with all the problems of the world. But whenever I sit down and think it through, I always wonder what can one person do? I wrote that myself. Well, what can one person do is a very good question if you don't do nothing at all? You could spend your time saving every little time or just curled up by the wall, ha ha. But if you think back some overall has been done and you wonder who did it and where it came from, figure it out without a doubt. One person at a time did it all. One person at a time, it sure works fine. Just roll up your sleeves, sign on the dotted line. Whatever gets done is done by one. One person at a time does it all, yeah. One person at a time does it all. Well, what can one person do? It's a very good question if you don't do nothing at all. You could stay in bed, pull the covers overhead, and wait for the sky to fall, ha ha. But if each one would just do what they could, working one at a time, we could do a lot of good, figure it out without a doubt. One person at a time does it all. One person at a time, it sure works fine. Pick up your load and get in a line. Whatever gets done is done by one. One person at a time, they do it all, yeah. One person at a time does it all. Well, what can one person do? It's a very good question if you don't do nothing at all. You can soak in the tub, or join a social club, or just go shopping at the muh-huh-huh. But if each one would work side by side, with another one, the work gets multiplied. Figure it out without a doubt. One person at a time does it all. One person at a time, it sure works fine. No use to wait for about a time. Whatever gets done is done by one. One person at a time does it all, yeah. One person at a time does it all. Listen children, one person at a time. Everybody working one person at a time. Oh, we can all do it one person at a time, they do it all. Do you get a chance to speak in front of the congregation, or is it just always Eric up there hogging the limelight? Well, actually, I do the minute for mission, which is like two or three minutes every now and then we have a mission to talk about. And I do get the reaction after I talk about Congo that I really care about this mission. And this is a mission that's on my heart. We have not had any visitors go over to Congo because we always felt that the money that we raised should go toward food and to education and clothing and basic things. But it has come to my attention from the moderator of our church that for me to speak for Congo, I am going to need to go there because I need to see and bring this knowledge back again to put it in front of my congregation and other congregations. So do you have concrete plans to go or tentative plans? Well, God told me to go. That's all I have. That's all I have right now. One of the requirements to go to seminary is to visit seminary that you're planning to attend. And I visited the one in Chicago. The Chicago seminary experience was very, very intense. And I'm not ready, but I learned so much. When I got to Chicago, I felt invisible and I developed laryngitis. So I wasn't visible and I couldn't speak. But what I learned there is that I need to find my voice to speak for the people that God has put in front of me. You mentioned Paula that at one point you were an elder for mission. That's not something I know from my quicker context. What does it mean? Elders are the leaders of the church. We form the church council. And what does elder for mission do specifically? The elder for mission finds the missions, coordinates the missions that the church does and brings these missions to this session for approval. And it also brings the session decisions back to the congregation. And in any way that's necessary supports the missions that we do. Our session elders have specific areas of responsibility and mine was mission. What are examples of other elders' functions? You're the one for missions. What else do they have responsibilities for? Well, we have an elder for worship. We have elder for outreach. We have an elder who's in charge of buildings and grounds. We have elders in charge of what we call Christian life and nurture. Which is basically education and fellowship for adults, for children, and for middle school, high school. Does that mean that you have an elder for youth? Yes, we do. Actually, we have an elder for youth. We have an elder for children and elder for elders. So we have 12 elders on our church council. Presumably, Paula, if you were elder for mission for the first press party in church, you know about what missions they do. Can you give me some examples? We actually have a lot of missions. About four years ago, I did a survey and we had two pages of missions that we'd been involved in, in some way or other. We were part of the founding churches for the interfaith hospitality network. The guests of IHN would come to our church and stay for the week until they finally got their own place at Beacon House. We still volunteer as hosts, five weeks a year. We were also part of the founding of the community table. And again, we still host four to five nights a year at the community table. We're a partner church for Habitat for Humanity. The third Sunday of the month is our Feed My People Sunday, where we collect food and money for the Feed My People Food Bank. We have a group of ladies that's been going to Dove Health Care for 35 years to set hair for the women there. We've had missions related to health care kits in Malawi. We had blankets and tools of hope. Heifer Project International. And we've also had Congo Missions. We support the Good News Jail Ministry. And we also have our three to five club. The three to five club was founded about four years ago in conjunction with Marty, which was a multi-agency response team for youth. What they were looking for was a way to help prevent juvenile delinquency. They were looking for safe places for kids to go after school. So many of these kids would go home to nobody or to actually harmful atmospheres. So our three to five club right now meets two afternoons a week on Tuesdays and Thursdays during the school year. And we have absolutely wonderful volunteers available to help with homework. We have scheduled activities and we have very healthy food snacks. No candy, no soda pop. And we have a lot of volunteers from the university and from our church. And I think we've made a different 70% of the kids who come to our program have shown improvement in their grades. And that's because they don't all come for homework help. But that's an amazing statistic that we've been able to share. We've run bells for the Salvation Army and Pastor Eric was one of the founders of the CareLink program, which is an ecumenical community program to help needy people in our community. That's been a really exciting program. So many different churches are involved. I think there's 30 some churches now. Different kinds of churches that are involved in this. We invited also the synagogue and the mosque, but they have their own program so they did not choose to participate in CareLink. But this is one of the places where all of these churches meet is in helping to care for the people in need. It's very exciting. Actually, I guess I got to know about CareLink before anyone else because it was part of the research that Martha, who's part of the Quaker meeting, and did to run into Eric. And he had been part of such a program down in Illinois before moving up here. So the two of them kind of hatched it and brought other people in. It was wonderful to see it grow out of small seeds. Presbyterian Church here is not a megachurch is it? It doesn't have 10,000 members. But how big are you? We probably have about 350 people officially. Our attendance is between 150 and 175 on a Sunday. So it's a small church. We're a minority. We understand that. From the number of missions you do, it doesn't look like you're a small church. Is everyone involved in doing a mission of some sort? A lot of our people are involved in different kinds of missions. I think that's one of the attractions of our churches. We are very involved in doing. We think that what we believe is going to be shown in what we do. Does it have to be no, but it will be shown in what we do. God will call us to help in these different kinds of things. People who like building, they're involved in habitat. People who set hair, that's what they do. People make food. What they can do is how they get involved. So we have a lot of people involved. When you recounted our volunteers, we had 175. So we have a lot of volunteering in our church. [Music] I am the lord of sea and sky. I have heard my people cry. Oh who fell in deep the sin. My hand will sing. I will make the stories of night. I will be when I guess I will bear my life to him. Who shall I send? Here I am lord. Here I am lord. Here I am lord. I have heard the calling in the night. And now I will go. Here to be free. I will hope to be the win by hope. I am lord of snow and rain. I have known that people's fame. For a world for all of them. They turn on place. For the great in their hearts of snow. Give a voice for the world. For the sweet world for them. Who shall I send? Here I am lord. Here I am lord. I have heard the calling in the night. I will go. Here to be free. I will hope to be the win by hope. You describe these as mission opportunities. And I'm sure a lot of us grew up. I certainly grew up within the Catholic Church thinking that mission what you really do is you go out there and try and convert people to be part of your particular religious group. Is that part of what you're doing when you're going out there as mission? Is that what the real objective is? Is to do something nice for them so they become part of your church? We want to help people become part of the family of God. We respect other religions as far as I'm concerned. We join hands and sing. They all know we are Christians by our love. This is an important part of what our church does. When we have communion we offer communion to all baptized believers no matter what their church affiliation. I believe that the Presbyterian Church is about helping people because God has given us so much we need to share it. So it sounds like mission to you doesn't mean convert people to be like you. But to live out God's love what would you say is the overarching purpose of the Presbyterian Church? What's the end objective? To share the good news of God's love. One of the mission pieces that I shared with our church a couple years ago for one of our national offerings talked about the fact that when you're giving food to somebody who's very hungry they may not know that you're Presbyterian. But they will always remember that you help them. This is a seed and it may take several seeds before the fruit comes. But you have to go out and do this. We're also the church with the sign on the boulevard. Part of our message is sharing our sense of humor as well as our compassion and our love for God and our love for God's people. So what are some examples of Presbyterian humor you can share with us on the air? Well, we become known as the church with the sign. I have to drive by the church to go to work and I always know Wednesday morning people slow down because we change our sign on Tuesday afternoon. So there's the Wednesday morning slow down of traffic as people are reading our sign. I remember a recent one, a kid who shows up in church won't show up in court. I want to come back Paula to your plans to go to seminary. What are you doing now for a livelihood? Well, my main job is working for the Eau Claire Community Foundation. A community foundation receives gifts from generous people. We invest the money and with the interest we provide grants to nonprofit groups in Eau Claire. And being able to invest it and use the interest allows the principal to stay there in perpetuity, as you say. We're like a savings account where the United Way is a checking account for day-to-day operations. We're the savings account. We're for special needs, special projects, supporting all the various nonprofit groups in Eau Claire. It was started in 1997. We've got about $4 million in assets. We've given away over $800,000 in grants since then to 85 different nonprofit organizations. That's the exciting part. And evidently you want to leave that work to go to seminary. What led you to choose to try and go to seminary? People ask me how long I've been thinking about going to seminary, and the technical answer is, since May, which isn't very long. But even before that, I had the feeling that God was preparing me to leave. And he finally told me in May, you have to go to seminary. I don't know what's coming after that. I don't know if it'll be parish ministry or mission or teaching. But I do know absolutely that my next step is to go to seminary. When you say that God told you to, in which way did this word come to you? I had been to a meeting of our prespiratory, which is a meeting of the pastors in our geographical area and elders and other guests. And I was reflecting on the things that were so exciting that day. This had been a time, a very difficult time for me, very, very dark. I felt disconnected from my church. I felt disconnected from God. And I was looking for where I was supposed to go. And as I was driving home after this meeting, thinking about the things we had done, the message was just there. Like a sparkler writing in the dark sky. You have to go to seminary. And it was another one of those decisions where you know, yes, that's the answer. There's no question. You just know this is what you're supposed to do. I imagine some people might look skeptically at God talking to you. I don't. In fact, I believe that it's a much ignored part of many religious practices. Does this happen to you frequently or has this happened to you periodically? Can you give me other examples of it happening to you? I look upon the Holy Spirit as the big nudge, the person who's pushing you to do things. There's been so many times in my life when decisions that should have been difficult were not because the answer was there. When I met this man who became my husband, the message was there. You have to marry him. Okay? So you do what you're supposed to do, and you realize how it's part of a plan, changing my major from English to French. The answer was there. One of the things I realized I did when I became a deacon is I'm called to listen and to care. I'm not called for judgment or other things, but this is what I do. This is my main thing. So I would get little messages. Oh, you have to write to someone. So send a message to someone. So somebody needs you. Go listen to so-and-so. I think this is God talking to me. This is the Holy Spirit who's giving me messages. This is very much a part of my daily life. I don't find I have the discipline that so many people have, you know, morning prayers, evening prayers. But then I'm talking to God all day long, and so I don't understand how do I compartmentalize that. I can only talk to him in the morning or this is an ongoing conversation. Okay, God, you know, thank you for the green light. I'm pleased. I won't be late. Other people don't realize that they're talking to God or they don't understand it. Or maybe they only listen when they're reading the Bible or when they're in church. I think you mentioned earlier in the interview, Paula, that Presbyterian Church sees everyone as being a minister. And that everyone is their own intermediary with God. Is this kind of belief in God speaking directly to individuals, not just through the Bible, not just through your minister, but directly to every individual? Is that common in Presbyterian Church? My understanding of our church at this point before seminary is that we are all responsible for our own walk with God. We have a corporate confession in our church service. Each person confessing his own personal sins to God and then receiving forgiveness directly from God. The pastor is there to help us and sometimes to give us the words, but we are all responsible ourselves for doing this. In my picture of the landscape of religious society in the United States, Presbyterians are what I would call a mainline church, along with Methodists and Lutherans and maybe Baptist. Where do you see your church standing, let's say, on important social issues? Is it middle of the road? Is it conservative? Is it liberal? What kind of atmosphere is generally part of the Presbyterian Church? And maybe specifically first Presbyterian Church, which is the one you know the best. One of the things that I appreciate about our church is the fact that we can encompass a wide variety of personal beliefs and still be considered Presbyterian. We do have some things that we stand for, we stand for ideas like social justice. These are very important in our national identity. But even within our first Presbyterian Church here in Eau Claire, we have very conservative people, we have very liberal people, we have people of all sorts of different political persuasions, but we can still come together in our worship service, receive the messages that the pastor brings, and we share with each other. This is a church family. That's one of the reasons I am happy to come back to the Presbyterian Church, is because we can include so many people in our family. When you say that the church nationally is interested or involved in, concerned about social justice, what kind of issues are you talking about? Well, we have had several issues that have brought us some attention. We have been a very strong supporter of the Palestinian Christians against oppression by anybody, whether it's Jews or Muslims. To that end, we have petitioned for rights for Palestine. Part of our support is to go the political route and to put pressure on people in charge in the government to make the changes. Another project that has brought us attention has been our look at our investments, talking about possible divestment from companies that are profiting from oppression, specifically oppressed people in Israel or around Israel, like the Palestinians. We have not chosen to do this yet, but we are looking at this because we do not think that this is God's will. It doesn't show God's love to oppress people for profit. ♪♪ ♪ And once again we gather here as the night grows long deep in the air ♪ ♪ It is a season of light, a prayer and fasting ♪ ♪ And the endless longing for love everlasting ♪ ♪ All the children of Abraham ♪ ♪ All the children of Abraham ♪ ♪ And we are Isaac on the mountain top ♪ ♪ By the hand of God made the killing stop ♪ ♪ Faith without measure, hope without end ♪ ♪ But it is love will make the nations bend ♪ ♪ All the children of Abraham ♪ ♪ All the children of Abraham ♪ ♪ All the children of Abraham ♪ ♪ All the children of Abraham ♪ ♪♪ ♪ And he said there is but one ♪ ♪ And he said there is but one ♪ ♪ His name is Allah, His name is Yahweh ♪ ♪ His name is Jesus, His name is God ♪ ♪ All the children of Abraham ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ This dark December, as we look onward, let us remember we share this history, we share this place, we share this moment, we ask the grace of all the children of Abraham. All the children of Abraham, all the children of Abraham, all the children of Abraham. And he said there is but one, and he said we are but one, and we know we are but one. And we are Muslims, we are Jew, we are Christian, we are just me and you, all the children of Abraham. All the children of Abraham, all the children of Abraham, all the children of Abraham, all the children of Abraham, all the children of Abraham. [Music] Our moderator this year of the First Presbyterian Church is basically a man who has been involved in mission. So this is very exciting to me. He has a very big mission heart, and one of the projects that he has started in South America is to be witness. We cannot stop all the bad things that are happening with the drug problems, but we can witness this and we can bring this news to the world. So we have teams of people now who are with the Presbyterian churches, I think it's in Colombia, and they stay with them and they watch and they bring the news back so that if these people are being killed or oppressed or harassed or hurt, the world will know about this. I think there's been some news in public media about Presbyterians and gays and ordination. Where are things with that and what is the atmosphere in the church about that? Do you accept gays into your congregation or are these people to be reviled? The question that we have addressed is whether people who are actively gay, lesbian, should become officers of our church. That's elders, deacons, or ministers of Word and Sacrament. Our current book of order, which is our law, says that you must be chased in singleness or faithful in marriage, which is between a man and a woman. This question has come up to our General Assembly, almost on a regular basis for many years, and our church is split. The vote is very, very close. Each time it comes up. It used to be that each Presbyterian could decide its own criteria for ordination. So when you have a Presbyterian that represents a certain group of people, then the ones that you want serving these people would be the ones that know these people. But at this point, this is not allowed. That has to do with leadership positions in the church. Would a gay or lesbian individual be welcomed into your congregation or is this very much a regional thing as well? In our congregation, I don't think it's a question. It would certainly be invited. I actually heard from someone that Eau Claire is a very welcoming place for gay and lesbian people. We don't ask people about their sexual orientation when we invite them into our church. We assume that if they are called to follow God that they will figure out the way to do it properly. We do have people who are not married, who we know are living together. We don't say bless you, my child, but we don't kick them out. We accept them because if you cut off contact, how can you have any kind of effect? How can you share God's love if you won't even talk to somebody? We do not practice that kind of discrimination. As regards your own path after you go to seminary, do you have any leading at all to go to someplace like the Congo? Would you like to serve somewhere overseas? Some of the people who are less privileged than we are in this country? I would love to go to Congo. Most of the missions that we have had for Congo have been in support of their needs over there. We have not sent anybody over there to visit. But since talking to our moderator and other people involved, I've come to realize that we need to have somebody visit. We need to have somebody go over there, be there, because you can't bring the story back if you don't know it. And even though Reverend Kazadi can come here and talk to our people, he's not always able to communicate what he needs to say. I know my culture. I know my language. I can see this and I can bring the story back. It is so exciting to think about going over there and being part of this different culture. They have church for four and five hours on Sunday. They sing and they dance for four and five hours. This is amazing. People don't have cars. They walk three miles to work, but you have a whole bunch of people walking together. And it's part of the community. You have only one meal a day, but then you have your whole family is there and you're all eating and you're all sharing. And this is so exciting. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Thank you for taking the time to speak with me. I do wish you well on your application for seminary. When are you supposed to hear about that? Well, they start making their decisions after the middle of January. So I've only applied to the one seminary. So if they turn me down, I have to go looking again. I appreciate all the prayers and I appreciate the support for my church and for my family. That's been really important. And without it, I don't think I could get where I'm going. And thank you for letting me come here today. Thanks, Ken Paul. You've been listening to an interview with Paula Tibbs of Eau Claire's First Presbyterian Church. Music featured in this program includes "Guide My Feet" by Bill Harley, "One Person at a Time" by Andy and Terry Murray. Here I am, "Children of Abraham" by John McCutchen. Finally, "Bella Me" by Conda Bongo Man. The theme music for Spirit in Action is "I Have No Hands but Yours" by Carol Johnson. Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeat@usa.net. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. I have no higher call for you than this. To love and serve your neighbor. Enjoying selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor. Enjoying selflessness. Music (gentle music)