Spirit in Action

Bethany Jacobson/Military Families Speak Out

Bethany Jacobson's older son joined the marines when he turned 18 and was deployed to Iraq in 2004, at which point Bethany, with the encouragement of her son, began to speak out against the war in Iraq "for the boys", as part of Military Families Speak Out.

Duration:: 59m
Broadcast on:: 11 Dec 2005
Audio Format:: mp3

I have no hands but yours to tend my sheep. No handkerchief but yours to dry the eyes of those who weep. I have no arms but yours with which to hold. The ones grown weary from this struggle and weak from growing old. I have no voice but yours with which to see. To let my children know that I am out and out is everything. I have no way to feed the hungry souls. No clothes to give and make it the ragged and the morn. So be my heart, my hand, my tongue, through you and will be done. The enders have I none to help and die. The tangle knocks in twisted chains the strangle fearful minds. Welcome to Spirit in Action. My name is Mark Helpsmeade. Each week I'll be bringing you stories of people living lives of fruitful service, of peace, community, compassion, creative action and progressive effort. I'll be tracing the spiritual roots that support and nourish them in their service. Above all, I'll seek out light, love and helping hands, being shared between our many neighbors on this planet, hoping to inspire and encourage you to sink deep roots and produce sacred fruit in your own life. I have no way to open people's eyes, except that you will show them how to trust the inner mind. My guest today on Spirit in Action is Bethany Jacobson. Bethany is a member of a group called Military Families Speak Out. Her older son joined the Marines when he turned 18 and was deployed to Iraq in 2004, at which point Bethany, with the encouragement of her son, began to speak out against the war in Iraq for the boys, as part of Military Families Speak Out. Having grown up near UW Milwaukee in the 1960s and 70s, Bethany saw plenty of demonstrations against the Vietnam War. She carried into adulthood a general peace orientation, including her effort to keep war toys away from her kids. She had a conversion experience in her mid-twenties and was a member of a charismatic church for 15 years before moving to the Chippewa Valley. When her son was deployed to Iraq, Bethany could no longer remain quiet and then began speaking out strongly against the war and for our troops. With a very clear message, bring them home now. Bethany, thanks for joining me today for Spirit in Action. Thanks. I'm delighted to be invited. I met you first at Teach-In about the Iraqi War this past spring and then I had good fortune running into you again at the Veterans' Day Service. Have you been very active this past year in regards to peace witness? Yes, I have. Actually, I had a son who was stationed in Iraq last year at this time as a Marine Reservist and his unit being activated really did spur me on to becoming a peace activist and speaking out about the war in Iraq. How did you feel about him going in the service and when did that happen? Well, when my son was 19, he, of course, was on his own and decided that this was what he wanted to do. He called me from the office down in Milwaukee where you kind of sign on the bottom line and go through some of the paperwork and induction procedures that they need to do. And he called me just because he needed a couple social security numbers and that type of thing. And I have to say it was very devastating. I was the kind of mom who didn't buy guns for her boys to play with, that kind of thing. And so it was definitely not where I was hoping he would choose to head for his future. I believe he was in the Marines, right? Yes, that's correct. He joined the Marines in 1999 as a Marine Reservist and then he served with the Gulf Company in Madison as a reservist. So when did he go active? Has he had more than one tour of duty over in Iraq and is it done for sure or can he be called back? Well, fortunately my son did only have one tour in Iraq. The Marines run their tours as a seven month in country tour. A number of the active duty Marines are currently on their third tour even. But as far as my son goes because he originally had signed up for six years, he was considered activated for one year's time and was activated June 2004, did a number of months of training in California and then was in country in Iraq from September through March and came home in April. So tell me, does that mean he can't be called back? I understand that the small prince says they can call you back forever and ever and whenever they want. Well, it's not quite whatever they want. He is considered to be out of the Marine Corps now. He's no longer considered an active duty service member. He will be considered an inactive duty service member for two years. And I understand that they can in whatever extreme emergency call back inactive members. I know that the rules are a little bit different for other branches of the service, but I'm not sure of those. We've all heard the stories about people and men who've been out for any number of years that have been reactivated. And I understand there was somebody in the state of Wisconsin not too long ago. Would you describe yourself as having had a peace focus basically through their childhood? If you kept them away from guns, what environment did you put them in where they learned their values? Well, my children were raised in a very kind of, I would call it a very quiet, almost country lifestyle, if you will, very self-sufficient. We lived out in the country. I raised vegetables in a large garden and raised chickens and that kind of thing. They learned wood kind of back to the land as many people did in the late '70s and in the '80s. So I try to teach my children to be self-sufficient. I did some homeschooling for a time. Interestingly enough though, with television and other types of play, they're still exposed to that idea. And interestingly enough, Eli, the son who joined the Marines, nailed himself together a gun out of corn cobs when he was three years old. So it's an issue that I think many parents deal with and I think as my other children came along, I sort of, you kind of give up the fight sometimes and I think that down the line there probably was court guns and squirt guns around. You start out with your first one with very high ideals. I'm sure many of your listening families can relate to that. You start out pretty strict with the first one and you get a little easier as you go down the line. I know of a family down in Milwaukee part of the Quaker meeting down there and she raised her children with no access to guns and abhorred it. Her kids at one point when they're just elementary age got squirt guns and they pointing at each other and saying, "Squirt, squirt, you're wet to pimp her." So I think it's pretty rampant. What kind of process did you follow with Eli when he became part of the Marines? What were you able to talk to him about, tell him about, because you always want to affirm your child, want to support them, how did you deal with that, Bethany? Actually, I supported his decision. I cried the first week after I found out he was signing up and he actually went to boot camp not long after that. I did write to him in boot camp and I went with my family, both of my parents actually and my brother, all attended his boot camp graduation. So I really wanted to support his decision even though I wasn't in full agreement with just the whole philosophy. I admired his persistence and his determination and his willingness to really complete a task because indeed, Marine boot camp is 13 weeks of extremely difficult training and I was very proud that he had completed that and done well. Do you have some sense of his opinions about it now? He served in Iraq, he served in the Marine Corps. Is it your sense that he'd like to go through it again? I think his perspective is, and while I don't want to speak too much for what he thinks, I think it's demonstrated by his choice to, number one, leave the military and not sign up again despite the fact that he did get some pressure to sign up again. He wants to move on with his life and raise his family. He is married and they have three small children. And so he wants to kind of get back to normal life. Your son evidently did not go to Afghanistan during that engagement. At what point, Bethany, did you get active in working against the war and working against the public perception of this war? I think it was a slow process. I really was not in agreement with the war once it started in Iraq. I think I was more agreeable to Afghanistan, particularly because we were told over and over about Osama bin Laden and the connection between that and 9-1-1, which I felt was very traumatizing to me personally as well as to so many in our country. But it just didn't seem to add up what was going on in Iraq, even at the very, very beginning stages of the war when the UN weapons inspectors were saying we can't find any weapons of mass destruction and over and over again they were saying we're not finding the things that we're looking for and yet we kept hearing the drumbeat for war from the administration that there was just cause. What I was also uncomfortable with was really the fact that this was a preemptive move to what turned out to be a person who did not have the ability to harm America. And so I was very uncomfortable with that, really, from the start. You're active with a group called Military Families Speak Out. When did your affiliation with them start and what's that group about? Military Families Speak Out is a group of military parents and spouses and families who are loosely coordinated really around the country and working to advocate for the country to bring our people home from this war and also to take care of them when they get home. We're very concerned about the level of trauma and we're very concerned about the level of assistance that families and military personnel are getting. On one hand we're told to support the troops. On the other hand the Veterans Administration budget is getting cut quietly. Where's this group organized out of and what's the structure? Do you know other people who are part of it? I do know some other people and have had contacts with people throughout the state. There's another family in the Eau Claire area that I have been in contact with and in fact this other family and I have spoken together at a few places such as the teaching at the University of Eau Claire last spring. It was really started by a family who had a son who was a Marine and people have joined ever since and they've become kind of a loosely knit group throughout the nation of military families in various states. What is your message? Is there a single message or is there a clear message that the group is about? Bring them home now. Bring them home now. The military family speak out message is that this is an illegal and unjust war. The mess over there keeps getting messier. Just the fact of the news this week and 10 Marines were killed in one incident. People are coming home dead every single week and our message is that it's wrong that people need to admit that the mistakes were made such as John Edwards, Senator John Edwards did. He said that he was wrong in his judgment for voting for the war and he apologized for it and he said now it's time to work on getting them out. Senator Russ Feingold is another person who is saying we need a timeline. We need to get them home. Is this tricky at all within your family Bethany or is it generally tricky within families of military because some people perceive if you say this is an unjust war then the military personnel might be saying well they're not being supportive of me. Has that been an issue in your case and do you perceive it as an issue for other military families? My son has understood that my advocacy is for the guys as he would say. That's what he appreciates about what I have done that it speaks for himself and for the other men that he serves with and had served with. My explanation to other military families and many disagree with me. Nobody has really been outwardly disapproving of me or my views. However I would say to them that that's what freedom is about and that's what our democratic process and that's what the freedoms are that we have is to speak out, is to be part of the political process, to be part of organizing and writing and changing public opinion and asking for change within our government and our government policies. So I would say that I'm participating in the democratic process at times when I have been standing or protesting. People have said you know I hope you know about all the men in the military who fought and died for this and I think yes I absolutely do know and I'm absolutely grateful of that. I do find it a little ironic though that people sometimes get mad when you actually participate in the process and use those rights. If I understood what you just said basically you said that there are people come to you and say do you realize that people died so you should have the right to speak out therefore you shouldn't speak out. That's kind of the bottom line and what I try to do is to understand their feeling threatened and their feeling that somehow protesting the war is protesting against the guys. I mean that's really what many people believe. They cannot separate the people from the policy and so really you know I hope people would understand that we're protesting the policy of our government in Iraq not the people who are serving I can see it's so clear. The very first time I met a game with my dad and I was eight maybe nine, we all rose to our feet before the ball game could start. Took off our caps and put our hands to our hearts. It was more than a banner it was more than a song I sang because I believed I sang because I belonged, sang for all those who dreamed, for all those who dared, looked to the heights and the flag was still there. I see it passing on cars, I see it passing for war, I see it passing for patriotism. We've all seen that before, I've seen it used as a weapon to brand some as wrong, no one has the right, I stand up and fight to say I belong, cause our flag is still there, for all the saints and the sinners, yes our flag is still there, for all the losers and winners, those of us who still dreamed, those of us who still dreamed, and the outcasts and forgotten, the flag is still there. From Lawrence to Lexington, from Concord to Kent, in Seattle and Samma, we are born of descent, and on this native ground, blessed by immigrant blood, in the river of freedom, we're all washed in the flood, cause our flag is still there, for all the saints and the sinners, yes our flag is still there, for all the losers and winners, those of us who still dreamed, those who still dreamed, all the lost and forgotten, flag is still there. Still there though we might disagree, if you are brave in the land of the free, we have gathered so much, we have traveled so far, we are woven together, we are spangled with a new world, we are now in the land of the free, we are now in the land of the free, we are take off our caps, as we all rise, put our hands to our hearts, as we lift up our eyes, we begin with a question, we ask of say can you see, stand and be strong, believe and long, be brave and be free, cause our flag is still there, for all the saints and the sinners, yes our flag is still there, for all the losers and winners, those of us who still dreamed, those of us who still dreamed, for everyone in this country, flag is still there. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Maybe I'd like to turn here, Bethany, to some of the views, your deep values that are behind your opinion on the war and other things in life. I heard you say that this was an unjust illegal war. Is that your view about war in general or do you think of yourself as a pacifist? Where does this view come from? That's a huge question. I'm not a pacifist. I think that a lot of those views are still developing for any number of reasons. I think my faith and my personal convictions and things are evolving. I think like many people's are through their life. I grew up and came of age during the Vietnam era and certainly came to the understanding that war is bad. The war was definitely dividing the country and destroying a lot of things in our country at that time. There was a lot of conflict in America at that time. For a time in my childhood, I lived near the university in Milwaukee and saw the protests and practically riots on the campus. I remember when the library was taken over by the students there. And remember very well how the evening news in Walter Cronkite in the footage of Vietnam. So, of course, come to the conclusion that war is a bad thing. [music] The year was 1968, the land of Ubaqfiran, a tiny Asian country had to pay the price for all. Two men stood up in Buffalo refused to hate, refused to go, took shelter in a church and waited for the acts to fall, not tell me who's the criminal here. I ask you, who's the criminal here? A man is forced to leave his land while others move in bloody hands, tell me who's the criminal here. But well, long days they sweat it out, there's peace within, there's peace without, the steep roots over how to crush, the courage that it lacks. Then thirty-two brave pots of beds come swinging chains and busting heads. When the dust has settled, those people swear they'd been attacked, now tell me who's the criminal here. I ask you, who's the criminal here? A man is forced to leave his land while others move in bloody hands, tell me who's the criminal here. Bruce Baier, facing years in jail on trumped-up charges out on bail to Sweden, flies in exile from the land where he was born, goes to work in for a church group there with the refugees from the heat and fear. Or back at home, a crazy war machine goes grinding on, tell me who's the criminal here? I ask you, who's the criminal here? A man is forced to leave his land while others move in bloody hands, tell me who's the criminal here. In Canada, he has worked and lived, he could never cross that friendship bridge. Now to all the Sams dismayed, it's time for coming home, who'd slam that door who'd turn that key while the real criminals walk free. If one bloody man among dares to cast the first stone, he'll ask him, who's the criminal here? A man is forced to leave his land while others move in bloody hands, tell me who's the criminal here, who'd slam that door who'd turn that key while the real criminals walk free. Help me who's the criminal here? As far as developing the view that this was an unjust and illegal war, I think that there's been many resources out there that I don't need to repeat, you know, the Downing Street memo and any number of things that have come out even in the mainstream press that show that a very conservative group within our government is really been advocating for some changes to take place in Iraq even before September 11th. That concerns me and that concerns, I think, many Americans that we've been kind of told one thing but yet there were plans going on behind the scenes that really indicate that there was a different story. Now you said that you didn't allow your children to play with guns when they were at that age. Where did that value, where did that idea come from, that seems, it sounds like maybe you were a pacifist in wolves clothing at that age that you were still believing it but didn't embrace it as a particular value. Well, I think that's a clever phrase that you use but I don't know if I could necessarily characterize myself as that. I think I was kind of a hippie mom, you know, put it that way, just wanting to raise my children with a very basic, peaceful, back to the land, natural is maybe even the better word lifestyle and I think people in their natural form, people living in a self-sustaining way are naturally more peaceful. I think that's really the base that I was coming from. What were you raised religiously, what was your home life growing up? I was raised in a mainline Protestant nomination, you know, was baptized as an infant and, you know, was raised in what I would consider pretty average church life, that kind of thing, not full-blown attenders, not the kind of people that went to church twice a year, I would say just sometimes. And did that practice follow you into your adulthood? No, I left the mainline church that I grew up in, really when I was about 18 and kind of was hungry, I think I was hungry for God at that time in my life and wasn't finding anything to slake my thirst, so to speak, in that type of organization. And we don't really went looking for other ways, I think I visited different churches, I read different books, explored some different types of answers, I guess, for the questions I was having. And did you find anything that answered your questions? It took, I think, a number of years for me to really continue to search, but yes, I really stayed with my original belief, which is really in being a Christian. I did have a conversion experience in my mid-twenties where I came to understand the spirit of Jesus and, you know, Jesus being a Savior, being the example, being the one who I wanted to live my life for, and the example of the person that I wanted to be. When you say you had a conversion experience, is this like a born-again experience, and could you tell me a little bit about how it actually worked in your life? I don't think I've had the same experience. I think how it worked in my life was just that it really, it became real. The Holy Spirit, the God of Heaven and Jesus being the Word of God on Earth really became a reality to me, and the Holy Spirit, which is part of the Christian Trinity, became real. You know, the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit being our teacher and being our guide. I think that was alive and working in my life at that time. I was open to that and sensitive to that leading. Bethany, was this at a time when you were particularly needy, hurt, or open in some other particular way? Because you'd been searching for a number of years. Can you say anything about why this time it happened, and was it particularly who it happened through, or was it the time where you were at? I think it was pretty much where I was at. I think a lot of other things felt like dead ends. I studied books, studied other philosophies, studied some other religions, especially coming out of the 70s and into the 80s. I mean, there was transcendental meditation, and there's, you know, astral projected, and there's all kinds of interesting things out there in the world, not that I actually participated in a lot of different things, but I did do a lot of reading. And they didn't have life to them. They didn't have a living spirit to them. In my opinion, it was not something that was life giving. It seemed like it would come to a dead end. That's the best way I can describe it. Was your conversion experience such that you remember this specific day that it happened, the specific moment, that kind of thing? I just remember it was in October of '86, 1986. And where were you? What was happening? Oh, I was at home, and I prayed, and I just said that, you know, I said basically, you know, Jesus, I believe that you're real, and that your Holy Spirit is real, and that you are powerful, and I want you to forgive me, and I want to go on and serve you. You know, I think as human beings, we all have things that we need forgiveness, and it was just a fresh start. It was a fresh beginning and a way to kind of move on with a new focus and a new strength. Well, what did you move on to because of that experience? How did it change your life? Well, I think it changed my life in that I definitely became active in a church. I joined a, I guess you would call it a charismatic kind of a church. And so it was very active with worship and very active with our children and that kind of thing. And so became part of a very close knit community where there was quite a bit of support. And I think that was wonderful place to be at during years of raising children and things like that. And so I really don't regret my time there at all. I spent close to 15 years in that church and really found it to be overall a very positive experience. I really enjoyed especially the music. Having grown up in a mainline church with organ music for worship, it was wonderful to have more modern music with guitars and drums and more exuberance. And it was very joy-filled to worship that way. Now, how does this dovetail with your identity as a hippie living back to the land and involved with peace? Did that church have any connection with all of that? Actually, no, not really. I would say that many of the members there, most of the members, they were actually probably quite conservative, even fundamentalist. Some things I think, ebb and flow in your life, some things get a bigger focus at times. And during those years I was not particularly active politically, particularly active with any kind of politics or even being all that aware of them. I was working mom raising kids and there's only so much time and attention you can do when my kids came first. And so I wasn't particularly active during those times. It's only now that my children are more grown and we only have two left at home now. And I have more time and ability and desire to be active. What would you say you heard from the pulpit in that church about peace and justice type issues? I would say that the church really lacked in teaching about those kinds of things. The focus was really more on a personal relationship. It was a lot about scriptures and how those can take place and help you and work with you and guide you in your everyday life. But I don't think it was taught really about helping the poor, helping the widow, visiting people in prison and many of the things that Jesus spoke about. I think was kind of lacking in that church and in really any number of the churches I visited or been part of through the years. To some degree this has always struck me as amazingly contradictory. People who have claimed that Jesus is the center of the world who then turn around and ignore this very strong thrust of what Jesus says. How do you explain it or how do you understand it, having lived in that environment for at least 15 years? I think Jesus said it when he talked about people coming to him and he says, "Go away, I never knew you." And in the scriptures they're saying, "Well, Lord, we've served you. How is it that you say that you don't know us?" He says, "When I was hungry you didn't give me to eat. When I was thirsty you didn't give me to drink. When I was cold you didn't give me your cloak." I don't think people in the world have changed since then. I think it's something that we need to speak of from the pulpit and I think we need to as a part of a Christian community to speak out about and to help people to focus on. We went through a time, I think, in Christian America where particularly through the 80s and 90s where there was a whole lot of things being taught as gospel. There was a prosperity message. You may remember how Jim Baker and Tammy Baker hate to bring that name up because they get a lot of press through the years through that, but they were really teaching prosperity. Jesus wants you to drive a Cadillac kind of a thing and I think people, yes, you know, I think that God wants us to be in health and prosper even as our soul prospers, like the scriptures say, but not at the expense of paying attention to the least of these. I'm on my pulpit now, I guess, but it's really how I feel. I have worked many, many years in caring for the least of these and it's difficult for me to see sometimes how little attention is paid to people in need. So Bethany, why did you stop attending this charismatic church that you were part of? Well, actually we moved. So we just moved away and I still visit and I still join them in worship on occasion when we're back to that town and still in relationship with some people from that church. In fact, still pray regularly with a friend that I've made from there. She's also moved away and we still stay connected. So where did you go after that? Since we moved to this area, I think my husband and I have gone through yet another kind of spiritual change in our life. We actually visited and participated with some of the other more charismatic churches in the area, but we just didn't feel quite at home. So actually, we have been searching really for about five or six years for that same sense of community and of really wanting to join. I guess I consider it really a kind of a desert time as far as having that kind of support in the church community. We certainly have not left our faith, but we are not worshiping with a group right now and we're missing that. I think we have gone out at various times and visited and felt disappointed that we couldn't connect. We're kind of an interesting dichotomy in that we're very liberal in a lot of our politics and in a lot of our worldviews, but we're somewhat conservative in some of our religious views and some of our religious practices. We feel that we want a church that's really alive with the spirit of Christ and not simply following a form. So when was it that you left that town and that religion? It's been six years since we moved to this area. So it's been about six years that we've been searching for a church. We have visited at times, but we seem to run across barriers. For example, it's quite strong. For example, in a number of churches, you know, that bars women from leadership positions and that kind of thing. And we're just not particularly comfortable with that. Would the charismatic church that you were part of done in Wisconsin Rapids, would they have been comfortable at your work with military families speak out? Probably some people in the church would not have been particularly comfortable. As I said, many of the people there were quite conservative in their worldview. As we know, George Bush has tremendous support in the evangelical community. And so I would expect that any number of them would disagree with my viewpoint. Which is more difficult to find a church which upholds and lives out the same kind of spirit of Christ in the world and peace and justice issues, or a church which goes well beyond forms into real substance and encounter with spirit and with Jesus? I think it's more difficult to find a church that is working for peace and justice and helping people in a very humble sort of way. When you say that in terms of politics, your liberal leaning or have a number of strong values in that direction, what kind of values are you talking about? I'm talking about the values that take care of people. I have worked 27 years in long-term care with people who are elderly or disabled, mentally ill, cognitively disabled. A lot of people who are, for lack of a better word, in need of services. I have seen over and over families and people waiting and really suffering because we don't put a priority fiscally through our budgetary processes through our government to pay workers what they're worth. It's really quite complicated. I hope I didn't make the circle too tight there in my description, but I feel that people need to be able to really freely participate in government and be welcomed to having those kinds of discussion. And I think, as Franklin Delano Roosevelt said, dissent is the highest form of patriotism. It really having a chance to speak your dissenting voice is really one of the hinge pins for our Constitution. It's important for us to take care of our children and take care of our schools, and it shouldn't be an either/or situation. I think we have gotten to a point in our country where we have more corporate welfare and they're trying to currently balance the budget on the back of people who are by cutting food stamps and by cutting Medicare and by cutting other kinds of programs. And I think that's terrible. For example, the oil companies had record profits this last quarter. I mean, literally $10 billion for one oil company profits. It seems ridiculous to me that things would be cut then from the food stamp budget. I guess that's what I mean by the more liberal viewpoint politically. Theologically, do you think of yourself as a conservative or a liberal if you have any idea what that means? I think we can all get, you can really get lost in the semantics of it because if I say, well, I'm a liberal Christian, that's going to mean put a different picture in the head of somebody than if I say I'm a conservative Christian. I certainly believe in the Bible. I believe in Christianity, but I also believe in respecting people. And I believe in trusting the work of salvation to the Lord and to the Holy Spirit. I don't believe in thumping people with my Bible. I believe that it's the love of God, which the Scripture says, it's the love of God that draws men unto Him. And I think it's our job as Christians in this world to love people. A friend of mine has a great phrase. She said, "We need to be God with skin on." So the things that we do with our hands and with our mouth and with our time and with our finances needs to be what God is to people. And sometimes that's the only witness that they're going to have. They're not going to go into a church. They're not going to open a book. People will maybe not be, dare I say, listening to your radio show, but I might meet them in the grocery store or I might meet them in the park. And maybe I can be that God with skin on for that person. So, I don't know. You tell me what label should we put that on? One of the issues that I ran into growing up was when I realized that by what I was being taught at church, that those who were not baptized as Catholics were going to go to help. And all of those over the centuries who had never even heard of Jesus, who grew up in India or Africa or whatever, that therefore they're going to help. That their only hope and salvation was if they professed the belief in Jesus. At that point I started to say, "No, I couldn't accept that." I've been thinking about that lately actually. And again, I think salvation is the work of the Lord. I don't think it's up to me to go out and knock on doors and get somebody to profess these magic words. I believe and I trust in the work of the Holy Spirit to meet people and to understand. My viewpoint is, God got me. If he can get me, he can get anybody. And it's not up to me to sit in judgment or to decide if somebody is going to help, whatever they believe or whatever they profess. I think it's a work of the Spirit. It's not a work of people and it's not for people to decide. Well, let's make a full circle here and come back, Bethany, to what this has to do with your work in terms of opposition to the war, in terms of support of troops and bringing them home. Where do these religious values fit into and sustain your help you in this work? Or do they detract from it? Do they make you want to not speak out? I really struggled with speaking out at first. Number one, because I didn't want to be perceived as not being supportive of our troops and I didn't want to even be perceived as not being patriotic. I actually waited until I had a chance to speak to my son who was already in Iraq and said, "Look, I'm just bursting with this and this is what I want to do." And he said, "Mom, whatever you got to do, go for it." And then I stood out. I started spending Wednesday evenings after work. I stood on the corner and hasting sway for an hour. Holding up signs, I started participating in other forms of protest and of educating myself and of helping educate other people. Where does that come from with my faith? I hope this doesn't sound too strong, but I think that when Jesus said, "Love your enemies," that's what he meant. When Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek," that's what he meant. I believe war should only be at an absolute, absolute, absolute last resort. And when I mentioned earlier that I believe this is illegal and immoral, I believe we did not reach the absolute, absolute last resort as a country in the situation in Iraq. Therefore, I feel it's part of my duty to stand up and to be counted as one of the people who is willing to stand up. Given your views about what Jesus said, loving enemies and turning the other cheek, how would you feel about and how could you support your son, were he to kill someone else? How do you deal with that really emotionally tearing point where that happens? I have not asked him, and I cannot ask him at this point. If he feels as though he can share that information with me at some time, I guess I will cross that bridge when it comes to it. Yes, I believe that Jesus said these things, but I also believe that there is grace and mercy and forgiveness even for the worst of sins and for the worst of sinners. And so if your faith allows you to believe and understand in forgiveness and grace, then it's all as the Pentecostals would say it's under the blood. You can cut that part out, but what it really means is, oh, well, you can maybe keep it, but what that means is, is that it's taken care of in our relationship. In our relationship with God, it's taken care of, all of the ills of humanity have been taken care of. That's the message of Jesus, you know. He says I'm the example of what you should try to live with, and he came to show us that we couldn't follow all the rules. We couldn't follow the law that it was impossible to do that, but he said I'm gracious, and I'll give you the grace. So that's really how I deal with it. I told my son to do what he had to do to come home. I think that's from a deeply human heart, you know, to tell your child that kind of a message. I think that's just a mother's heart of wanting to see her child come home and be well. It's a bit of a dichotomy from a person who really wants peace on earth and peace in the world. Yet I think we are not one label, we are not one facet, we are many faceted beings. I don't really want to argue with you or anything about this, but I do want to make sure that I have as much as you can say about it. There's the saying, you can love the sinner, but not the sin. I've often had to think about this with respect to the military. I believe it's wrong to kill another person. I believe it may be better than the alternative sometimes, which is maybe have multiple people killed, but I still always believe it's wrong to kill the phrase that you mentioned that it's all under the blood. My sense is that there are a number of people who are devout Christians who excuse a whole host of really very unseemly things that they do that they live because it's under the blood. So it doesn't matter how much I exploit people because I'm saved, kind of thing. And so I find a real danger in not looking at the sin, the wrong, the hurt that we do, because we personally feel gracious. Well, we're getting into some deeper theological waters here, and I will never profess to be a theologian. I think the message of God's grace is one of the hugest challenges in Christianity, and many people will express the same viewpoint that you have expressed that somehow God's grace allows us to just do whatever because we'll be forgiven. But our own love, our own lives, our own relationship makes us want to do the right thing and want to be the right thing. It's not cheap, it's not easy, and it's not without a cost. There's a certain humility. I guess I'm reminded of, again, a parable that Jesus told you about whose prayers did God hear. Was it the one of the man who said, "I'm so glad I'm not like that poor soul over there. I'm a leader in the temple and I do this, that and the other thing." And then there was the other man in the temple who was praying, "Oh Lord, save me because I'm just a wretched, wretched sinner." And so it shows that there's a humility involved. There is a reckoning, if you will, in each individual's soul. So it is not a process that comes easy. Is God's grace abused or misunderstood by people? Why? Of course. And Bethany, if people wanted to find out about military families speak out, how could they do that? Is there a website and is there perhaps an email where they could contact someone? Yes, there is a website. It's www.mfso.org. So that's www.mf is in Frank, S. as in Sam, O.org. And that is the Military Family Speakout website. There's information there and there's contact information there. And if folks in the Chippewa Valley wanted to get active and work with you and the other military families who are speaking out, how could they do that? How could they find you? They can find me through email as well. My email is BJ-F is in Frank, L-A-G, piece, work. That's all one word at TriWest.net. People can feel free to email me if they have further questions or if they're interested in hearing more from military families. Bethany, I want to thank you for being here. I'm wondering if you'd be willing to offer a prayer. Okay, let's, I guess, ask people to pray along with us. I would just pray to the Heavenly Father, or Mother, as the case may be. In your viewpoint, I would just say let your spirit lead us and guide us in paths of peace, in paths of harmony, in paths of the most good for the people that we can do. It has to start with us. It has to start with us. So make those changes in us and help us to reach out and to do the things that we know to do. Amen. Amen. Thanks again Bethany for being here and for the really important work that you do speaking out bravely and with the love of a mother's heart. Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to share with you and your audience. (Music) Oh, I'm not afraid to go, folks, I'm not afraid to die. I've just got something else in mind that I would like to try. Give me a shovel instead of a gun. I'll say so long for now. If I die, I'll die making something instead of tearing something down. He said goodbye to those he loved, wiped his mother's tears. Don't fret folks, I know what I'm doing. I'll be back in a couple of years. He picked a piece I can eat and looked back. He bravely left for the war. Took a Bible and a shovel and a lot of hope. He knew what he was going for. One, not afraid to go. Mother, I'm not afraid to die. I just don't want to be the one to make another son's mother cry. Give me a shovel instead of a gun. Say so long for now. If I die, I'll die making something instead of tearing something down. He worked among the people of that far off Asian land. Many who would be the enemy became the friend of the brave young man. He helped in the crops and he worked in the shops and talked whenever he could. Of how he dreamed of the peaceful world. Life would be sweet, I'm good. Oh, I'm not afraid to be here for it. I'm not afraid to die. I just can't shake this feeling inside. We can live together if we try. Give me a shovel instead of a gun. And I'll end with your hands for now. And if we die, we'll die making something instead of tearing something down. He fell in love with the brave young woman. Took her to be his bride. She shared his dream of a world going right, worked right by his side. But the war got to the love suddenly. I pulled it left the young grown dead. In her tears of grief, the bride heard a gentle voice that said. Tell him I wasn't afraid to go my love. I wasn't afraid to die. I just didn't want to be the man to make another man's warm and cry. When my shop beside my grave, maybe someone else would find me. To be brave enough to die, make it something instead of tearing something down. When my shop beside my grave, I'll save so long for now. Don't worry my love. We're gonna make it. I know we're gonna make it. So my love. I'm listening to an interview with Bethany Jacobson, who was active with a group called Military Families Speak Out. You can find out more about them and listen to this program again via my webpage. You can find that at www.NorthernSpiritRadio.org. And Military Families Speak Out link is on that page. It is www.mfso, the initials for MilitaryFamilySpeakOut.org. Also via the website, you can find Bethany Jacobson's email address if you want to get active with the local chapter of Military Families Speak Out. In the course of this program, I included three songs. The first was Who's the Criminal Here by Charlie King. The second was Our Fly was Still There by John McCutchen. And the last one was Brave Man from Ohio by Andy and Terry Murray. The theme music for Spirit in Action is I Have No Hands but Yours by Carol Johnson. Thank you for listening. I welcome your comments and stories of those leading lives of spiritual fruit. You can email me at helpsmeet@usa.net. May you find deep roots to support you and grow steadily toward the light. This is Spirit in Action. I have no higher calls for you than this. To love and serve your neighbor. Enjoying selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor. Enjoying selflessness. To love and serve your neighbor. To love and serve your neighbor. [MUSIC PLAYING]