Out Now With Aaron and Abe
Out Now 582: The Bikeriders
this week on out now with Aaron and Abe we're talking the bike riders from from from from from from where the baby I forgot my introduction. We are now recording and this is out now with Aaron and Abe. I am Aaron and Abe is unfortunately not here he's out on assignment this week but out now is a film podcast where Abe and I discuss new movies weekly. We dig into filming a boaster sport for your review the occasional commentary tracker some other film would be topic this episode 582 582 and this week we're talking the bike riders the newest film from director Jeff Nichols and joining me to discuss the bike riders we have rider for joe blow.com and star of the horror short the foot of the bed it's Jimio yes good to be back man it's been a while also joining us co-host of the linole and knife podcast an author of the book hollywood pride it's along to the reality. Hello great to have both of you guys here I know it's been a minute for both of you but yeah very very happy to have you both on here excited to have both of you on here looking forward to what happens for sure yeah Jimio always a pleasure to have you on here it's just it's just night to see it yeah I agree I agree it's I I've I've had an interest here so yeah it's nice to get you back on the on the podcasting track with us over here yeah man and Alonza this officially your sophomore episode yes you've you've you've found your way back to the the realm of out now there today and I'm very happy about that and you have a new book out I do it's called hollywood pride it is out from TCM and running press and it is a history of queer hollywood on-screen and off what better way to celebrate pride but then talk about Jeff Nichols the bike riders and then eventually have a discussion about your new book which we will do after our review for the movie Alonza and ira gonna talk about his book so stay tuned for that this might be the most heterosexual film about motorcyclists ever made yeah well we'll get to all that and more but first let's get to the show notes uh first up commentary tracks we do a commentary every month of this podcast which is always a lot of fun and for our summer lineup of commentary is we are going global we're doing international features so we just did our commentary for run lola run for its 25th anniversary um which you can find out on iTunes and spot if i never get five podcasts and we have more fun ones coming up in the in the next coming months we're going to be chunking express uh in july and i believe kiki's delivery services are planned for august so stay tuned for some some fun commentaries uh speaking of that speaking of all these bonus those that we have all of those you could find as i mentioned i tune the spotify as well as all the episodes of this show and if you go on to those sites you can give us a rating review which would be great you would help uh pop us up the old iTunes charts if you give us a star rating and a review that would be wonderful so thank you give them five stars people five speakers yes please the preferable number of three or four five if there's a four i just want to see the feedback of what lost us next time what how could we better serve you exactly exactly um what else of course the 12th annual summer movie gambles so uh you guys are not specifically involved in this but Abe and i along the front many other frequent guests of the show we try to predict every year the top 10 highest rows and films at the domestic box office which usually goes along poorly but we do our best anyway um we are in the heat of this right now because we're at the end of June we've just been a lot of movies that have come out and a lot of them have not done as well as some of us might have thought that said some of us predicted inside out too would be the number one filled this summer and right now it is doing a tremendous job of proving me to be right because it made another hundred million dollars this weekend at the box office so the the picks are swing back around into the positive is a in full effect here so yeah that made another hundred bad boys been another 18 which is quite good for bad boys um and it's third week um and as far as anything goes it kind of matters to this kingdom of the plan of the apes is still making some money if it's still making some money uh so yeah we'll see where things go it was a you know a quieter week in terms of new releases that we're making heaps of money but uh we got some july 4th actually coming along pretty soon that'll determine the even more about this uh this very intense contest that many of us are involved in all right let's get some show notes out of the way let's move on let's get us about now quickies do you have each look it out now we have one main movie that we talk about but we always have other movies that we see during the week that's always having to call it out now please that's the slowest i've ever said that um that makes sure we're all the same page here um alanza i want to start with you what movies have you seen recently uh i would give you a new one and an old one um my new one is thelma uh which i kept hearing about for ages it's been when it was making the festival rounds people kept telling how wonderful it was and it turns out they were right it is a delight um june squib is a great uh comic lead this is the first time that this 90 plus year old actress has gotten to be number one on the call sheet and she is ringing every drop of uh enjoyment out of it uh it's a really charming uh kind of action question mark comedy uh richard round tree in his final role uh great always always great supporting performance from parker posi um just really charming really funny um you know if you're looking for a movie to take your parents or grandparents to this should be top of the list but you don't have to just date night any reason if you're going to the movies go see thalma you you don't have to go with a senior citizen and you will still enjoy it it's very enjoyable and i i want to shout out like obviously june squib is like she's very fun at it it's just nice to see richard round tree one last time you know yeah that that was uh i didn't realize i think i i couldn't remember if i remember that he was in it but i didn't realize he was going to have like such a major role in it so that was nice to see him it was like a buddy duo essentially for this film for sure yeah yeah no so they're terrific together and you know rip mr round tree uh and then my older film for the week uh so one of the podcasts i do breakfast all day uh with christy lemere we do a monthly thing for our patreon members called uh off the menu where we'll pick out a handful of films cueing to a certain theme or person and have them pick one that we'll review and do exclusively for our patreon members so when roger corman passed away we did a choice of five or six corman directed titles and our subscribers picked mask of the red death which i have never seen and it's great um it is one of the po adaptations with vince and price but like wonderful richard bo-mont script nicholas rogue shot it the color is brilliantly lurid you can see like the jello guys taking frantic notes on this movie um they had and i think because they borrowed a bunch of castle sets left over from Beckett it probably like looks a lot better than a lot of the aip movies of the early sixties of the the those corman quickies um yeah very cool very atmospheric um you know and and very much uh still relevant you know about this sort of decadent aristocrat who thinks that he can put a wall up between himself and a plague and discovers that uh maybe not well very cool uh jimmy and i in october along with our friend on the show random peters and of course we we like to do a lot of these horror themed bonus episodes we have really done like a hammer set or like in that kind of realm in the the years we've been doing that but that would even it is master is that would that be considered a hammer is that just no no these are this is a aip which is the arkoff and nickelsen's company even that kind of like realm of like the kind of like 50s 60s leaning into 70s kind of like big technicolor horror stuff that'd be a that'd be a fun way to fun thing to explore for us in the future for sure check it out i think you'll enjoy it and it's it is so in some ways it is so sixties like the the female lead is played by jane asher who was like famous for having dated paul macartney for a while and you know like one of the villains is played by um uh patrick mcgee who is who's in a clockwork orange you would recognize him he's the guy who takes in alex at the end of the movie and then tortures him um but anyway it's it's just uh a delight to look at and i loved reading on the wiki page later that it wasn't a giant hit for them and arkoff claimed the problem it was too arty farty yeah but uh i would say uh the arty fartiness has aged well all right well jimmy what have you watched recently well not much uh well i've been doing a couple of things i like they the embargo type thing uh but i did see though but i absolutely of selma that was amazing i'm i think it probes different that her little the the third the trio this uh what i wouldn't delightful right definitely and and like little little sprinkle of nicole buyer and you know fart greg in there too for good measure very entertaining very that's about it though i haven't been too i've been a little bit busy with other stuff like fair enough um i've seen a few things maybe horror it looks like actually uh i saw the exorcism the um latest russell crow exorcist themed movie it's so it's own sub-genre now i guess parallel i i will say this it doesn't the ending doesn't work however the the build of the movie involves him playing this struggling actor who has gotten this job to be in a exorcist type remake of some movie it's not exactly disclosed that said the film's directed by joshua joshua miller the son of jason miller yes and it's and it's produced by kevin williamson and it feels it basically it feels like a a scream type movie but played completely straight there's no like humor to it but it does have a sense of they know what movie they're doing and even and early on the that like there's camera work that kind of reflects that it's in on like what atmosphere it's after i wish it was able to hold on that to like to that vibe throughout the movie but i like i have like a mild like a mild appreciation for it because i do think crow is doing the work here for a movie he filmed five years ago apparently um and it it had more interesting stuff in it than i expected would i rather see popes actresses too with him being back on that moped of course i would get a back on that mode immediately but i feel like if jason miller son is making a movie about an actor making an exorcism movie and losing it like this goes right next to brats in the maybe you should have worked this out in therapy uh cinema rather than devoted entire feature film to it it's fair that that's a fairs day and that and that he else he he um he he wrote the the final girls the film that i really that was that was that was my main reason i wanted to see movies like all right let's see what he's gonna do as a director the probably yeah it plays it so so straight there's no humor here like it's not it doesn't have a lot to like make me come back to be like oh let me see it again to see if i find new things like no it's presents everything on its head but there's like a good like third almost two thirds that i like appreciated more than i expected so i'm not gonna like write it off completely that's right about that which speaking before i also saw humanist vampire seeking consenting suicidal person might make for the best title of the year so far i mean you know it's no codependent space lesbian space aliens seek same but it's up there this is a this is a french film obvious it's a french film it's about a family of vampires and the youngest daughter in the family uh she is very fittingly going along with um with the insight out to and tiger strikes for that matter she's basically budding as a vampire but her fangs haven't come in yet and the film works as a kind of metaphor for like going throughout a lessons or what have you and like getting becoming of age to be the vampire that her parents and her older sister are along during this coming of age journey she meets a boy who has suicidal thoughts and perhaps they can get together and both solve each other's problems things ensue from there i enjoyed this movie it's it has it's very it's a comedy ostensibly it has a humorous streak running through it i enjoyed what it was after uh it's it's not it's not like one of my favorites of the year so far but i but i enjoy like going in based on like the fact that i just really like what the title gave me it's like okay this movie has some goods i enjoyed what it was going for overall um so yeah that's that one is that a theatrical or is it going to streaming it's from draft house i think it's like has a very limited theatrical release and then like we'll go probably straight to digital like either at the same time or shortly after gotcha um so yeah i want to mention this other one i will uh reverse the curse this is david de covetney's uh new feature he wrote he it's he's directed the film based on his own book um where he plays a dad with like cancer some does i believe it's just cancer like uh they don't specify too much it's one of those like dad's dying diseases uh believes his son played by logan marshall green speaking of tom hardy um it's uh the tom hardy you get when you can't get tom hardy yes he it's set in like the late 70s he's like a hippies kind of character he and his dad are strange they come back together so he can like deal with him uh stephanie biatris plays like a death consultant because that's the job uh the dad is a big red Sox fan um his health seems to be getting better anytime the red Sox are doing good so logan marshall green concocts a scheme for his friends and biatris to kind of stage that the red Sox are doing better than they actually are ideally to get his get his dad out of bed and get him working doing you know being better again it's a pretty standard like father son drama about the two reconciling the differences of getting back together the company is very good in this movie he plays up his kind of sardonic side but he's also like grouchy dad so like it has a little bit going on there logan marshall green i am so hit or miss odd sometimes i think he's like effective for the role other times i think he's like yeah it just it just feels like we couldn't get tom hardy like and that's it that's not not always the best here he has to play a hippie where he has like super long hair and like mutton shops for like a majority of the movie and it's like all right it just looks like a big wig and mutton shops if you're wearing it not to look like logan marshall green um so i i'm a little mixed i think the company kind of puts it over the top but it is a fairly like model and type film as far as what it's after but but yeah it's nice thing to come to just like deliver in the way he is so okay okay i couldn't play too much i didn't i didn't dislike my time watching it but that and that's it that's uh that's a lot of cookies do you i will add i did see the action make sure she's open i oh i forgot so yes it's just strong opinions and that's your review now all right well let's move on let's get to uh let's get to our main review now let's get to the bike riders i'm thinking it's starting to ride in club why all those clubs do is sit around talking about motorcycles that's what we do they don't belong nowhere else so they belong together they do the man in charge i'm Johnny where do they belong i'm ready i like you guys and boyfriends are getting in the trouble what the hell are you thinking back there no i said i saw you scoring off of them guys what i need to think for yeah you want me kid that should have been some of the trail before the bike riders director jeff nickels previous feature was 2016's loving based on attempts to reboot alienation and possibly direct a prequel to a quiet place more on that next week we've had a late a little while to get a new feature from the celebrated director with that said nickels has had some version of the bike riders in his mind going back over 10 years at this point inspired by the photo book by danny lion the film tells a story of the fictional motorcycle gang the vandals headed by tom hardy's johnny set in sixties chicago one of its newest recruits is austin butler's benny a hothead in love with his bike and being a part of this gang the story unfolds thanks to narration by jody comer's cafe who fell for benny it has to navigate being a part of the world that would double with crime and create conflict based on gang loyalties jimmy i want to start with you are you a general's fan in general and what do you think like writers absolutely i'm a huge chef nickels fan i think he's great over the years he's become a filmmaker just that i don't know it's i've gone to a point where i like i just building criticism is an interesting thing because oftentimes if you just don't commit with an artist to no matter how good they are it's you're not going to like their work yeah jeff's work i was always connected i love loving i love loving i love one of my favorite salesman that's special so weirdly enough i wasn't as even though yes it's shocking everyone knows i live on my video everyone knows i'm now a jeff nickels fan i was the excited the idea of those guys together excited me but i i didn't love the trip immediately i was like really i know because i i grew up like loving easy right i i i love since i loved all stuff it's it's it that was a 20 year old me that's what i had to be cool they go you know get a Harley and stuff like i never did but uh i i just this movie spoke to me in ways i had not expected i just got it it just felt right to me like the the the the soundtrack it reminded me a lot of good fellas and that's okay yeah good fellas maybe without so much of the um you know a little less killing still killing but you know a little less but um i just think it was a it's a smart movie i think it's a feel good movie i like the i love the three performances i i love all the purposes but i'm an unabashed fan of the bike park i just think it's a beautiful cool little film i just and i'm not talking even if they're i'm not talking like epic grand and what's but i do think it around academy award time it shouldn't be into just and it's all right alanza same question are you a jeff nickels fan in general and do what you think of this one i'm admittedly kind of hit and miss with him and i haven't seen all the films like i still haven't seen take shelter which i need to or the very first one which i know was it didn't get a ton of release but like i like mud a lot and i think there are things in loving that are effective not a big fan of midnight special um so i walked into this one not really knowing how it was going to be and i thought myself really um i think the film really kind of draws you into this world that it really sort of creates this specific time and place and setting and these people uh but and and i was completely enthralled with it while i was watching it and i didn't really realize until later he's not doing this in a way that that i think in a lot of traditional a lot of filmmakers which were traditionally do you don't get a ton of back story on most of the characters like they are men who don't talk a lot about themselves and they're men who live very much in the moment and that's reflected in the way they're presented in the film um and so you know like you you have the trope of you know mike faced is playing danny lion you know it was taking the pictures doing the interviews mostly doing the interviews with jody comers character and i found her to be such a fascinating outsider insider like she has this really compelling way of telling the story where she seems incredulous about it at the time but she's very much reporting on how this world works and what's set up and so even if we don't really get to know a lot about where does benny come from what drives him what's he about austin butler is such a movie star and nickels shoots him like such a movie star because that like we know why half he fell in love with him you know even if this character is very underwritten in the traditional sense that the images tell us what we need to know and so i've been sort of describing this movie is more of a mood than a plot because it really is about just sort of feeling what this weird sense of camaraderie is and and even if like you know you don't necessarily come up with this sort of big sweeping romantic sense of like oh wasn't this an amazing period you see what happens later and and that sort of next phase of biker gang is so grim with the heroine and the like literally becoming basically an organized crime cartel that it's sort of retroactively gives kind of a rosy innocence to these guys just drinking a bunch of beer and you know bashing each other's head in out in a field somewhere um so yeah it worked for me ultimately but but it it it surprised me later to realize how much i didn't get from this movie that i think i would have expected to get but that it was okay that i that what i did get told me enough yeah i agreed i feel like i had a similar action and i'm a big jeff dickles fan i i really take shelter i think is a fantastic film and michael shadam gives one of my favorite performances of that decade in that movie and then his work in general i've always been a fan of every i really like this first film shotgun stories i like uh special and and uh in loving and and but this one if i feel like this is lesser than some of his other ones somebody because i just like the other ones more but i still went away i still walked away liking this movie overall i could agree with you along with that the the mood is really a a big part of like what makes it work overall it's less about telling you the interiority it's going on with like all these characters and i think that works for some better than others like tom hardy he's very he's very good in this movie and he does a lot without having to do a lot if you know what i mean he like there's scenes of him just kind of staring at a tv or barely talking to his wife or bear looking like he's looking amidst in a restaurant but like i feel like i get what he's after i get what his character's all about uh and that works that that replaces my need to have the yes the more traditional like let's unfold who this person is or what not because i feel like i get it from some of these instances from him but where i think in the first half i was really enjoying because yes he's presented like this movie star character he has a clear charisma about him uh that works for jody comer one of my different scenes is jody comer meeting benny where she goes into this biker bar and she's her media reactions i want to get out of here on the lead and then she's like i don't really like she just you see her stop wanting to leave but she's still like saying that she does it's very fun and it's all because she's just looking at austin but she like can't like take away uh so like that's and there's more of butler obviously but like in that first half i really enjoyed that the second half i'm not saying i suddenly start disliking him but it was more i realized i wasn't going to get more than what the film was showing me about him and between that and between scenes of him and hardy together where i think hardy very clearly shows that he's a more experienced actor it just made me think there's three main characters here two of them i think are really delivering just a hundred percent all across the board and i think that's hardy and comer or butler i think yeah i can see room for like future roles where he's gonna like excel even more even like like because this was made i think around the same time as elf is so i'm not mistaken right like it was it's been around i believe before elvis even came out i know that so like there's like because i think like butler in dune for example i think he's tremendous in that movie he has a limited time in it and he only has so much to do but i feel like he's harnessed more of what that thing is uh versus here where i think he's very good but like comes up a little short when i'm matching him against something like hardy and that's either here or there he's good at the movie the whole the movie as a whole i like the world we are in i like these the various character actors that we have michael shannon pops up as he usually does in jeff nickels films and he has a wonderful little bit where he talks about being rejected from vietnam that i think gave you just a great a great understanding of like who this guy is and why he's in this group there's things like that scattered throughout the movie that i think really work well they've cast a lot of really good faces like so many so many of the supporting characters don't have a ton of screen time or dialogue to make an impression so you cast emery coen you cast boid holbrook you cast these really like you know memorable faces you know norman reynos obviously and and i think that norman reynos so i i feel like he just like can i just be in this like i feel like that's the vibe i got my own jackie with my teeth you know damn it harry and i think it's also very good here has like yes i'm already it's number two i think he is one of the best like i get this guy i get completely i i i understand who that what this guy is Benjamin cross of Benjamin fancy Benjamin cross of elmwood park was arrested and charged with 18 traffic violations but not before reportedly running through seven stoplights hitting speeds over 85 miles an hour in two 20 mile an hour school zones and causing damage to four municipal vehicles as a result of the pursuit cross is free on the twenty five hundred dollar bond and will stand trial in parkridge traffic court on december 9th how many stoplights did you win i said seven so it's away so i guess that's the number i felt like more if we're gonna get like quibbly about screen right a screenplay like mechanics i will say there is a the the movie is structured in a way where everything that we know is something that is told to danny lion or that he witnesses firsthand except for this younger character who's not in the gang who becomes important increasingly important as the film goes on and he's the one character that we actually do get some backstory on but it's like from whom because danny lion never meets this guy, he never talks to anybody who knows him. So that, and again, this is nitpicking and it didn't bother me, but it is a thing that I thought about later just in terms of like puzzling out how the story is told. It's like, how does this guy enter into the movie when there's no conduit for him the way there is for everything else? It's the kind of thing where the film's not going out of its way to explain it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a framing structure. It's just like, it's letting you accept the fact it's like, and now we're taking a break from that to focus on this other thing here. Meanwhile, at omniscient narrator. Yeah. But I think what you said, oh, I'm sorry. I think what you said about mood was so right on. I, I, I'm going to give my guy Chris Barry, a little credit here. He wrote his review. It was like James Dean and Marlon Brando made a movie. That's kind of what it feels like. There's such a, I think that's what I credit. I think it was quite a lot of people like about it. She's so, it just feels like a mood. It feels like I'm, it's a really cool way. It certainly hasn't been like, I mean, it literally calls out the wild one in the movie, which is another way or sure, which is another way area where I get what Hardy's character is because he's just watching the wild one. He's like, I want to emulate that thing. Yeah. He's a guy doing Brando. Yeah. And I, and I can, and it's already Hardy. So it's like, that feels kind of meta. And then, you know, Butler, who also seems to have his own way of channeling stuff. So like you put two Brandos together. It's like, okay, that's a lot. But yeah, but I do like that the film in this era of motorcycle outlogging, I like that Hardy's character. You get that, like, he doesn't really have much beyond. I just want to be cool. Like this guy, like that seems to be his modus operandi, which is interesting to me. It's not really as involved as any as most other people that might be here. You just reminded me of a very early Saturday Night Live sketch. So, you know, in deliverance, there's that song, "Dwelling Banjos." So John Belushi and Peter Boyle did "Dwelling Brandos." And you hear the banjo, don't, don't, don't, don't. And then what I'll be like, you know, I couldn't have been a contender. You know, like, they do like a fourth different Brando lines from different movies, while dressed as the character from the wild one, looking up on YouTube. It's a great one. It's very funny. This movie is also "Dwelling Brandos." Jimmy, I mean, you've expressed that you're just a huge fan of it. Are there aspects that like you just really glommed on to as far as like what said this part? Well, you know, I felt like it was a movie kind of out of its time in a way that, you know, I've got a huge lover of '70s cinema. I mean, that's just something that really feels me. And I remember movies like that, that really inspired me as when growing up, like the last picture show is really simple kind of tales that just are about something that happens in these people's lives. And they're well written, they're well performed. And there's some easy writer, even it's just, it's so great. It's such a great, it's a great feel. So I think that's bad. The soundtrack really kicks ass. I love the soundtrack. Edit. The needle drops are great. And I am a big fan of David Wingo, who has done most of Nichols's movies. And I think like on a craft level, like the reason they're able to create this atmosphere that is, I think so essential, like you've got, you know, the same guy has been his DP the whole time. His editor, I believe this is the fourth film that she's worked with Nichols on. And I think for Wingo, his composer, it's like his fifth, you know, so like they, they, there's clearly an understanding of how they work, how they work together, which I think is even more essential in a movie like this. It isn't relying upon the words and isn't relying upon the plot as such. But it is about like this immersion into a time and a place and a specific sort of, you know, community. That's fair. And that makes it feel the most like bud, for example, as far as Nichols goes, where it's less about having this kind of direct plot and more of, let's find our way into this world through certain characters, meet different people, get an idea of the texture of all this stuff. And that's where the bikers, the shines, the best way, just kind of like with it with these guys. Like I'm personally not like a motorcycle guy, I'm not a Harley guy by any means, but just looking at these shots of these guys and these bikes or just seeing the bikes or just seeing them at these, what social, social club gatherings where they call like there's stuff there that's like, I like being in this setting. I like this world. I like, I'm enjoying the time here. I like seeing Johnny do next to nothing and get people's attention from that and nearly get into brawls because of it. And then brawls do break out for other reasons. Like there's just, there's a confidence there that I could appreciate. And yeah, Jimmy, that does bring to mind something like a good fellas where you're in this world, and it has a class the same kind of arc to, right? You see the good, the good times for a, you know, a group that mildly participates in crime versus the bad times when they're even more heavily involved in the crimes and the crimes worse and what have you. Yeah, Nichols. And I've read an interview with him where he said that, that good fellas was absolutely an inspiration. I think it's also like it kind of falls into the larger sort of like those 1960s death of in this American innocence narratives that people love so much, you know, weirdly like, I think platoon kind of falls in that category. Although in that movie, the pot smokers are chill and the beer drinkers are like the violent, you know, ones and here it sort of flips it where it's like, yeah, when it's just a bunch of guys drinking beer, it's like, you know, yeah, they'd beat each other up or ever, but it was fine. But then once the Vietnam bets and their, and their weed and their heroines are coming in, it's all over. Yeah. Huge jump into the fire, you know, the separation with some of that is that obviously this is the movie made in 2024. So it can have a little more introspection as far as what these relationships are and what else it has to offer. It's not the 70s. So it doesn't need to be like, let's tell a story about America so much anymore. It's like, we've seen people do that. What's Nichols gonna offer instead? Here, in addition to just presenting that world to get you back to be familiar with something you frankly, just don't see very much because I was wondering this a lot. The kind of the outlaw, mighty remoker is like, well, gang genre aside from like sons of anarchy and it's spin off. Like, that's not really a genre anymore, right? There's not really movies. No, no, it was impressed that the movie made as much as it did this weekend. Good for it. But it's like, I guess people want to see this thing. But I think it'll do well, too. I think it will do what really well with what it's about. For a focus feature like this, it's doing about as well as it's doing better than I would expect to film like this in today's academy to kind of do. Yeah, regardless of all that though, regardless of the what can we go after what it does present to us along with the, you know, the texture and everything is a love triangle. I mean, that's largely what it boils down to in this film, right? We have three leads. Now, a love triangle presented in a way that's not the conventional, like, which one's going to fall into the hoop. But in terms of Benny or Johnny and Kathy are both at they have Benny like both on their sites, different for different reasons. And even Benny has his own way of presenting his royalties, where obviously he's married to Kathy and Kathy is in love with Benny, but he has his loyalty to his gang. And Johnny sees something in Benny and Johnny knows that Benny will do whatever Johnny pretty much asked for. So I'm curious a lot. So where did you think of that angle of this film? Yeah, there's definitely a father son relationship going on between the two of them. And again, because these are both characters who are presented as people who don't talk about their feelings in a way that, you know, is dramatically convenient for the audience, we have to sort of infer so much of it by their body language and sort of the conversations that they have. There's, you know, in my review, I kind of jokingly said, you know, like for queer artists like Tom of Finland or Kenneth Anger, like the sort of, you know, inherent homoeroticism of bikers, you know, has sort of like led them to different sort of artistic pursuits. This movie, the closest we get to that is there's a scene where where Benny and Johnny are practically whispering to each other. And they're sort of moving their heads around each other and their mouths and their ears are very close together because they're speaking so quietly. And it is one of those moments where it's like, okay, there's a version of this where they kiss, but we're not going to get that. But yeah, I think that relationship, you know, is as much of a focus of the film as his actual marriage to Kathy is. It essentially, you point out that scene, it's like, yes, there's a vibe to it to a point, but it also feels like this is like a dare, like it's hard to be like, I'm going to, I'm going to act this close to you and see what you do coming coming and playing chicken. I'll show you what acting is. And I was like, oh, fine. Okay, let's do we're doing this game. But Jimmy say some kind of question. I mean, obviously, there's, you know, there are the film tries to explore like what it is that Benny's after what is a Johnny's after what's Kathy after to do you appreciate like having this kind of a focus compared to like, you know, just like random gangs here. Now we got to fight them or something. Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah, because it gives a beating. It gives a beating heart. You know, you, Jodi is sick. The character is such a, I don't know, she's everyone. You know, she seems like someone people can relate to. I like her. She reminds me of my neighbor, literally. So I think the three characters and I that scene is absolutely brilliant. The two of them together, it's, I can see both of your points of that. I would say there's a dare, but I also, I see that kind of the almost from romanticized vision of these two men, you know, I think the intent is very clear as far as Johnny at that point is like mapping out a succession plan. And it needs like the guy he can, he's decided he can trust the most of all this like that. It's a good idea for us. I like the scene. It's just, it's, it's staged in a way where it's like, I feel, I don't feel like Jeff Nichols, like, this is what the space is going to be. That feels like the actor's decision. This is as far as this is what we're playing to do for this kind of scene. It might be. Yeah. It might just keep up. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it didn't buy. I absolutely love it. I love that. You know, it's hard because there's really nothing I didn't like about the selves. I'm goshing way too much, but I appreciate your guy. There's more less excitable. I think just it's something that I think it's a it's a crowd pleasing movie. I like that about. Oh, yeah. If you're going to make a piker gang movie like this with these movie stars in it. Cool. Like I'm down for that. Yeah. That's right. It's a movie that feels like it's doing exactly what it's setting out to do. And you know, so, and even if it's taking an unconventional way of getting there, I think that it's still you leave with, with a sense of what this was. And I think that's what Nichols is trying to capture, you know. And it's funny because I, you know, I, Christian, I did this on breakfast all day. She was not a fan and she sort of talked about, you know, given its source material that to her, it felt like a photo book that was all images and no text, you know, but I think within the images, there's a lot to, to glean here, even if it's not coming out of the character's mouths. Boom. Mike Fijs, by the way. Thankless. It's reckless, but, but I like, but I like his presence. I like to say, they say acting is all listening. And that's all he's doing. He's doing a shit ton of acting. Let me tell you. We mentioned Jody Comer a few times at this point. What do you think of her in this film? I don't want you riding. Yeah, it scares me, especially as soon after surgery. I don't like it. You don't like it? Oh, I get worried. I should just go. I'm just going to leave. What? No, it's better. You'd be better off. Stop. Stop it. Not having to take care of me. Worry about me. No. No. When I heal up, I leave. I think she's great. I love the character. I love what she does with it. I think it's, it feels genuine. And that's a tough thing because I could easily go off as maybe overly cartoonish. It's got the accent. I think she plays it in such a way that she just feels real. This feels like a real person that you really can connect to. I love that performance honestly. Here's what I could say about the accent. It's okay. It, it, it kept me listening for one thing. Oh, yeah. I saw this with me with my dad. He's not, he's from Baltimore. He's from Silver Sping, Maryland. I'll be correct and not just generalize. He's heard plenty of people from Chicago in his day. That doesn't make him an expert on people from Chicago, but hearing her and Johnny, he was like, this is how people talk to me. Like this, this, this reminded me of Chicagoans. I'm not going to be here saying this is an authentic Chicago, but I no doubt know that she probably listened to tapes of Kathy and has a very idea of what she sounds, very specific idea of what she sounds like. But the thing that matters more than all of that, it is consistent. There is not a point where the accent drops, right? And that's more important to me than whether or not it's 100% accurate. As long as she's sticking with the thing, same with Tom Hardy for that matter, who loves his accents. They, they are doing the same accent throughout. It doesn't feel like it's dipping or it's going any other direction. And yeah, it added like, to me, it added like a quirk to the performance and not a negative way. It just made it like, okay, cool. This is the thing that she does. This is the way she says. It's charming. It's absolutely charming. Yeah, it's hard to be like the, when you're the audience conduit into the world of the film and you're the narrator, essentially, like that's a lot to take on. And yeah, I like you. I liked listening to her. I like, I liked seeing where the story is going to go. I think the she, I could see a one woman show of her just doing this character on stage, sitting on a stool, wearing some, you know, like sleeveless, kind of, you know, 1964 house wifey kind of thing. And, and, and take out the bikers. And just, I would listen to her tell us the story of all of this. And I would find it compelling. Kathy tells, you know, and it's tricky, I think, for actors when they know they're playing a real person and they have access to what that person sounds like. Um, do y'all remember a movie from the mid 90s directed by George Miller called the Renzo's oil? Nickel he has a very, very specific accents. Nick is doing an accent that is like, you know, it's a me Mario. And then you hear the guy that he's doing, he's like, Oh, no, that's actually on. And again, it's the hope he is sticking with it. There is no, there's no like, let me get close to the camera and like monologue and a monotone voice. He is doing the voice the inspection. But like, if you are exposed to that voice for the first time, is it? Oh, what is happening here? Even though they are do they've done the research and they have like are trying to get it right and nail the thing of the real person, you know? So yeah, I have to give it to her. Like she's clearly like going after that. There were a couple moments where I found myself thinking of when Tina Fey would do the character from Pittsburgh who would talk about the mums, you know, but for the most part, I thought, okay, yeah, I believe this woman. I believe the way it's being presented to me. And I'm fascinated. I yeah, I could, I will not stop listening to her. I think she's fab. Since I started this thing off by seemingly racking on Austin Butler, I just want to say, his whole deal at the beginning of the movie where he waits outside Kathy's house the entire day and just smokes. And like the boyfriend leaves and sees him and he goes and he comes back and he's still there. That's good stuff. That's like, I don't know if that's like a move. I'm sure it probably is and it'd probably creepier. But as far as how this movie presents that, it's like, all right, I got into this. They don't have to have a conversation. This is why she falls in love with them. You get it, which is like, she is a smart woman. She is a character who clearly has agency, clearly knows it's going on. But she can't resist that Austin Butler just hanging outside her house. And credit to him, like, to be an actor like that, that has to do very, that's choosing to do very little. That brings us back to like the back like we're that far, but like to like Ryan Gosling when he was doing dry, like when he had that period before he became funny when he was doing more stoicism and was making it work for him. I mean, Butler's, Butler's doing something here that I do appreciate as far as how do you call to mind classic stars like Brando or James Dean and it's like, he's got the hair. They're filming in the right way. All right. I mean, really, I think you, you know, those are certainly obvious antecedents, but I mean, you could connect this to like silent cinema, because so much of him is like holding a close up and about not talking, but just like the camera being, you know, I mean, like they really work the angles of his face in Dune too. But even here, he is just like radiating so much, whatever it is that the camera is picking up that audiences respond to that. Yeah, that, you know, I imagine like pages of dialogue being thrown like, nope, just another close up. We're good. Another, another good like as far as like kind of informing you like how this, how these characters function where like he's at a point where he's being chased by cops on his motorcycle one point and he runs out of gas and it's like, well, I'll just go to wait here for the cops. Like that's, that's fun stuff. Like this really does like have an idea of like, what do you do to like make these motorcycle gangs, like make a level of sense, but also seem cool in their own way, which is, you know, that's the allure of a lot of these kind of like prime dramas, right? They get you, they get you close to being like on their side as far as like, look at the good times we're having and everything before it like pulls back the curtain. It's like, also, you know, these guys bad. Yeah, then given, I was a bit curious about like, perhaps because this is the end of the golden era, but even then not a lot of mentioned racism, which I'm sure was probably pretty heavy for a group like this, let alone the ones that would come on with the group later on. Yeah, they definitely, you know, never never met a Nazi insignia. They didn't feel like sewing under a jacket or having a picnic on, you know. But you know, again, I think it's because we're not getting there. This movie isn't really giving you context in terms of meanwhile, you know, like other things happening politically or socially. It's just, it is this vacuum pack sealed off world of these guys and their bikes. And being from Kathy's perspective, her point isn't to be like, yeah, Johnny and Benny, we're having a great time. Also, we hated these black guys. Like that wasn't really, it's not going to be her narrative. It's going to be presenting it like it is. It's this golden age of motorcycle gang before, because like, that's the whole thing, right? We're watching like the end of a certain period of the time for, for the good old boys and the motorcycle gangs before they, for all in a ride. But for things that heavy. What else? Well, I mean, I, I just learned after seeing it that apparently the kid, the aforementioned character who becomes more important as it comes along is Charles Bronson's grandson. Okay. Oh, I'm not surprised actually now that I was like, he would Stanley. He looks like somebody to me. He wasn't super ugly. So it didn't occur to me right away. Oh, stop it. Stop it. Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot. I was talking with the cuties for Bronson, like fan level. I'm going to, I'm double checking this to see if it's an actual thing or just somebody, something somebody told me the kid. I said, yeah. I mean, yes, there's been a, there's been a discussion lately about the, the ugly, cute guys or whatever. Right face, I believe is the word. Thank you. You wrote and faced with people like, what's his name from the bear and Barry Keogin. Joshua Connor. Yeah, from challengers. That's, which has to be a weird, like group to be a part of. Oh, yeah. Okay, it's not saying anything on his wiki page. So maybe he's not Charles Bronson grandson to me. Maybe he's he's British born an Australian. So yeah, I'm not saying that it makes it impossible. But certainly not, but looking at him now in his face, I can't, I could see it. Like, when I was told that it seemed true. But, you know, let's say he is the spiritual grandson of Charles Bronson. I'm just gonna type the words together and see if that happens. But yeah, I got nothing. Anyway, um, I know I mentioned Tom Hardy. Did you guys like Tom Hardy in this bar? Do you guys already know what is saying? Can this movie? My favorite Tom Hardy performance is lock. So like, I like a Tom Hardy that you can actually understand. But I get the appeal of a Tom Hardy, you know, covering half of his face with a mask or, you know, playing a boot legger who's does all of his talking inside of his sinuses. Like, you know, he likes to, he likes to muck about with that stuff. So I was not surprised to get a mumbly, you know, like truck driver imitating a method actor, you know, a voice in this. And so I just kind of go with it. I'm like, all right, Tom Hardy is going to Tom Hardy. And, you know, obviously as a presence, he's always fascinating. And I mean, I think he's a terrific actor. I just, you know, I'm his, his, his accent, he stuff is not always my favorite stuff. But it's still good. There. I am a massive fan. He is probably my favorite modern actor. And I, it's just, he, it's a lot of it. He just cheats his roles that I, I like, I like the work a lot. I mean, Aaron knows my love for Fury Road. It's probably everyone on Twitter, verse or whatever they call X knows. I'm a big fan. And so yeah, I love, I love a lot. Does he do movies I don't like? Sure. Absolutely. But generally he's interesting. Yes, we will all see Venom three. That's, I mean, yes. Yes. And yes, that's largely because it's him in a venomous. I mean, what is, who doesn't want to yeah, you know, I don't think I'm not trying to think of what what other stones do I turn here about the bike riders. But I think we covered pretty much the movie at this point. Any other, any other final thoughts on the bike riders? Then let's go to right. Well, where, when people should go and see this movie, Jimmy, what do people see the bike riders? Right down now. That should see it all. Alonzo? Yeah, I think this is a, yeah, I would say see it on the big screen because it is the kind of film that you are more likely to enjoy it if you allow yourself to be immersed in it. I think when you're streaming, it's too easy to have a couple of other screens going and the window open and whatever else. And so I think because this movie is operating on such a specific level of sort of, you know, ambience versus, you know, dramatization to really fully get that ambience you want to, you want to be, you know, in a theater. I can agree with that for sure. Again, I like the movie. I think it's a, it's a good time. I could agree that like the, if you're looking for something that's like catering to a whole lot of depth. I don't think necessarily think that's like, that's what this movie is trying to accomplish. But in terms of like presenting you with this world of the Outlaw biker gang that we just frankly haven't seen very much in a long time outside of the TV show stuff, this does the job and it has good movie star looking actors to kind of fulfill the roles that you want for a movie like this. So no, I think it's a good time. We were talking earlier about AIP and, you know, in the early 60s, they were all about the Po adaptations. But the late 60s, they were making, you know, the wild angels and all these other sort of movies leading up to Easy Rider. That's where a lot of the filmmakers, you know, came out of AIP. And it's weird that that's like a genre into itself that's just like, like the TikTok generation doesn't know about this. I guess they might have like a passive reference to James Dean or branditude, even Brando's not like a huge motorcycle guy, but like Easy Rider, like those are things they know the term. But the idea of there's like 70 biker movies produced by Roger Corbett and others, like, that's like, I guess that was a thing. Like, I think Gimme Shelter kind of takes the rose off the butt or whatever, you know. All right, well, the biker is playing now and we all recommend it. Certainly go see it. Yeah. Yep. All right, let's, let's move on. Now, let's get this about now feedback, feedback, feedback, feedback. This is where we go over the various questions answered on our Facebook page, Facebook, the console sent a podcast. We asked a number question of the listeners and they gave some answers and then they gave us some questions that we could answer as well. Jimmy Alonza, I'm going to let you guys throw in your answers as well as I go through these. But okay. First one we have here. Who are your favorite cinematic rebels? Chris Cleveland has Luke from Coolhead Luke and Furiosa. Philip Hart has General Han Solo. Todd Lehman, our friend of the show has Pee Wee Herman. He's a rebel daddy and bark off my friend of the show has Sophia Patella in Rebel Moon. Scott Mendelssohn from the show has Kevin from We Need to Talk About Kevin. These answers get sillier as I go out and Brandon Bitter's friend of the show writes Emperor Palpatine and Star Wars the Rise of Skywalker just might be the ultimate cinematic. Okay. Stupid cinematic rebels. What do you guys got? Um, he's uh, are we being seriously jokey? I don't know. I got a lot of the jokes out of my system. Apparently in these last I don't care. Second Pee Wee Herman without their irony. I think you absolutely an iconic class. I or a little section of my book where I talk about like I think people, especially in the 80s, which was such a conformist period, much like the 50s were. The characters like Pee Wee Elvira in Elvira Mistress in the Dark, I think, is there is really, you know, sort of like a pataying La Bourgeoisie and then Tracy Turnblatt in hairspray. Yeah. There you go. I was always partial to Chris Slater in Heathers. There you go. Sure. Yeah. There you go. Or pump up the volume for that matter. Pump up the volume. Yeah. Oh, especially pump up the volume. That's a great movie. All right. Next question we have here. What are your favorite films? We drink a biker gang. Mark off our rights. Stone Cold is wonderful. Luke White Thomas in front of the show has, I like the private club of the Satan's helpers. We bet it's back in Pee Weegan. Michael Lee Friendsville has the capsules from Akira. Chris Cleveland has Mad Max and the Furiosa. And Philip Heard also has Akira. Yeah, he was a big adventure for sure. We're all on the Pee Wee and Stella. Stella accounts, right? The biker gang. Yeah, we got a couple more swimmers in there. Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. All right. Next question. What's your favorite Tom Hardy performance? Christopher was it's unfair to have it be one. He's been in some good movies like Lock and Rock and Roll of the Revenant. I liked him as Bronson. Bronson's my pick. Mark off our Mark off our has oof. I will go with Warrior. Bronson and legend are close behind. Chris Cleveland has too many has to be legend. Close followers, Warrior and Pee Wee blinders. And Philip has Warrior full closely followed by the drop. Drop not one of my favorites. But again, that's that was, I'll tell you, I'm not a great judge of Boston accents, but that when I was sort of like, what is that? Where is this? I don't know. Is that Gandolfini? And there it is. That maybe and Matias Skynerts, right? Matias or they both playing like, you know, it's a what's his face, the Dennis Lahain, right? Yeah, yeah. That's what it says. I mean, I said, yeah, Lock remains my favorite. I think that's a that's an extraordinary movie. And I love his performance in it. I was not a big fan of what was it that TV show that he'd done FX? Taboo. Taboo. Oh, he didn't like it. I like that one. I wanted to, but man, week four, I was like, oh, get on with it, y'all. I'm still in for sure. Fair fair. I know, right? I said Bronson is my favorite. That's fine. That's why I go to for already. It's it's, I can't I can't. There's too many. There's time. I'm trying to think that we can do the horror film a really cheesy horror film. I didn't remember the tomato is straight easy. And I reviewed it back in the day. It's like a Greek monster. What do I think? Yeah. What do you think? Like a minotaur or something? There. Yeah. Okay. That's a title. He was in minotaur. Minotaur. Yeah. It's called minotaur. He's not. He plays. Sorry. He's not that bad in that. Unless we forget that inception. Yeah. Like, I love how he is sort of playing around with what we think we're going to get from its Tom Hardy character. And he's just deliciously sort of you know, Fay is putting too fine to find a point on it. But he's definitely like taking the piss with that movie. Yeah. Yeah. He's a lot of fun to watch, man. It's like Leo's already doing the thing and I like the like Joseph Gordon Levitt's playing all hard even though he's, you know, Joseph Gordon Levitt. Joseph Gordon Levitt's like, I like that. Yes. He has this kind of decidedly different attitude about it where he's like, yeah, that's another Tuesday for me. Let's do this. Let's go on the thing. Have some cheeky jokes and what have you. Next question we have here. What are some great films based around interviews? Michael Lee for the show has interview with the vampire Jackie and Frost Nixon. Scott Middleton has frailty. That's a great answer. That's really good. And Chris has the usual suspects films based around interviews. Would it be cheating to say my dinner with Andre? No, that's it. Interviews. There's a, would be a, gosh, I'm spacing on the name of the movie. I wanted to mention the 60 minutes movie. The insider. The insider. Yeah. The insider. That's a, that's a really good. Oh, I really. And late night with the double. I was thinking late night of the double. I see we might be there for recent examples. That's an interview. Yeah. Let's see. Last question we asked. What are some great films about writing on the open road? Chris Clinton has fear and loathing in Las Vegas, Easy Rider, and Mad Max. Philip Hurd has until the end of the world. Yes. For sure. Greg Iraqis is the living end. Yeah. You can also doom generation was pretty great. Yes. Criterians bringing them all out. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I'm not living in, but yeah, the, the T medical astrology. Yeah. I would have. Fury Road is obviously. Of course. All. Yeah. All the, all the road, the Mad Max. Lost in America. Lost in America. Yes. That movie is amazing. Oh my, Julie Haggard, was so good. Albert Brooks. In terms of like cheering me up scenes, I'll put on Brooks and Gary Marshall in Vegas. Oh, it's just an easy, like if I need three minutes to like be happy, I can put that scene. Oh, so good. Yeah. It'll be the. All right. Now we got a question here. This one's from Mark Hoff, my friend at the show. He writes, what's your favorite Jeff Nichols film? Pretty straightforward question. Mud fan. Yeah. Hi, you know, I might be bike riders. If I'm being real with you, I might be bike riders. I really love this flick. Hey, just I'm telling you, just a little thing. I, as I mentioned, I'm a big Jeff Nichols fan as well. Jake Shelter is my answer to that question. That said, Sony just released shotgun stories, his first film on Blu Ray for the first time this week. Don't afraid. I rewatched it before this, this weekend, because I wanted to, I hadn't seen it well. That's just a really good debut. Like you can see why critics latched on to him as quickly as they did. It's a very strong debut and a very good boys will be boys type movie. If you want to see if something along the lines of bike riders, but made of like a minimal budget, the shotgun story is a really good example of that. And Michael Shannon, he's great as one would. Yeah. All right. Well, that's all right. That's not enough feedback feedback feedback. And with that, Jimmy, I believe you're going to depart us now at this point. But before you, yes, we're keeping with five more of you online. Of course, you can find me at, of course, always at Jimmy Joe Joe, Joe Blow on there. You can find me in X, you know, whatever they go, Jimmy to the O, usually not the number, just the TO. I think that's down Instagram, all that. Yeah, that's about it. Yeah, that's it right for now. But I'm, you know, yeah, I'm not on social media that much lately. So fair enough. We expect much. Well, Jimmy is always great. It's been great talking to you. I look forward to having you back on the show soon enough. But yes, I look same. For sure. But yeah, you, uh, well, I was in, I had a great dog about this movie. We'll see this movie, guys. All right. Have a good one, Jimmy. Yes. Thanks, Chris. All right. Take care. Okay. So now we're going to move into our, our next segment here, which is going to be fun, because we're going to do a little interview. We're going to talk about the Alonzo DeRolde's book, Hollywood Pride. So before I, I asked my, my hard-hitting questions that I had laid out here, I just wanted a brief description. What, what, what is this book all about? Sure. Well, it, it basically, you know, kind of trying to throw my arms around, uh, the queer history of American cinema, both in terms of how have LGBTQ+ stories and characters, um, been presented on the screen, uh, but then also trying to put a spotlight on the many LGBTQ+ artists who kind of shaped the cinema over the last, you know, 130 years. Um, and, and certainly, you know, worked on, you know, films that, that continue to, to resonate. Um, you know, I've said that like, obviously a lot of the great queer films are made by queer filmmakers, but queer filmmakers also made a lot of the movies your dad likes. Fair enough. Um, it's good. Uh, well, you very kindly, uh, sent Abe and I a copy of your book and I've, I've read the whole book at this point. I appreciate it. Very enjoyable read. Um, and it's presented in such a way that I really appreciate where you have various chapters devoted to different, I don't say decades, but certainly different periods of time. Um, and then within each chapter, you have like a list of the different films, you have the different icons of the era, what have you. So it's, it's divided up very nicely in a way that people that like film history like to absorb it the way I like to, which is I think a lot of people that listen to this kind of podcast, uh, can very easily kind of get an idea of the history. Uh, thank you. LGBTQ plus representation in film. Um, I'll say this right out the bat, the queer community, they haven't always had it easy. You noticed that still don't in a great many ways. Um, yeah, you know, I, I, in, in telling the story, you know, uh, I, I didn't know this going in, but you know, around the time that you get the famous Dixon experimental sound film, which if you see in the movie, the cellular closet, it's sort of, you know, bookends the film, but it's this early attempt by the Edison laboratory to, to sync up sound and picture. And it's an image of one man is playing the violin and two other men are dancing together. And I, you know, they were probably straight and it was just one of those like, you know, the way that, you know, gold miners would dance together, you know, because there were no women around, whatever, but nonetheless, it is this image of two men dancing. So it has, you know, I think it counts as sort of the first queer film in a lot of ways. And then right around the time that that film is, is being produced, you have the Oscar Wilde verdict being handed down in England where he's going to jail for gross indecency. Um, and so it feels like the cinema was born in this moment where society was very much clamping down on the idea of heteronormativity and anybody who isn't going to run with that, you know, we're going to run you out of town on a rail. And so that's always sort of been there as far as long as this medium has existed, even though going back to the very beginning, you have gay actors and gay writers and gay directors, like creating this medium out of from nothing, you know, and continuing to do so, you know, over the next century plus. I'm curious, obviously you had to do a lot of research, I'd imagine, for a work like this. What, what era did you learn the most about during this process? Oh, man. I mean, around every corner, I was discovering stuff I didn't know, you know, because I, I, I, the book was pitched to me, like the TCM and running press wanted to do it. And I was like, yes, great. I would love to. And I put together a proposal. And I thought, oh, yeah, I know this history. I know who these people are. And I constantly encountering stuff I didn't know. So I didn't really know about, you know, like Jay Warren Kerrigan, who was this huge, huge movie star and like the T the 19 teens in very early silent cinema, you know, and all the press cover Jim is about like, oh, he and his mother were so close, you know, and, and he, you know, he had a, a male partner, but you know, they, they was very discreet and you didn't talk about it. And the press certainly never talked about it. You know, I learned that in the 30s, when the production code came into effect, that it not only affected, you know, how movies were made and what stories can be told on screen, but it sort of applied off screen as well, where the studios are basically telling their stars, look, you're going to settle down, you're going to get married. You know, if you're a gay man, you're going to marry a woman, if you're a lesbian, you're going to marry a guy, and you're going to, we're going to present your image. Yeah. Yeah, so Hollywood is going to be very cozy and homey and family, you know, because I think in the 20s, certainly there had been this notion of like, Oh, saw them by the sea and, you know, wild orgies and whatnot. And so, so yeah, the code not only dictated how films got made, but sort of how Hollywood was presenting itself to the world. So yeah, just all along the way was just things that I didn't know about. And it was exciting to revisit sort of moments I do remember, you know, like when the new queer cinema starts happening in the early 90s, I was working at film festivals then. And so I screened those films and I met those filmmakers at the time, you know, and then in the early 2000s, I was an editor at the advocate. So obviously I was, I had that perch to be observing like the entire Brokeback Mountain from a phenomenon from, you know, it's going into production to, you know, it's Oscar night, you know, so, so yeah, it was a mix of just stuff I didn't know and then just going deeper into things that I did know about. So I guess that I have a question there. I don't want to make an assumption that saying post broke back, post broke back bound would be like where the biggest time of change would be. But I'm curious, was there a time in making this and looking at all the research and everything that you saw the moat, like an area where the change where change most occurred as far as like an evolution and how involved or how prominent. I think it's the 90s. The 90s are real big boom here because you have to remember the 80s, the eighth pandemic happens. And if you were like maybe inching your way out of the closet in Hollywood, you were like running back in and bolting the door because, you know, whether or not, you know, there was there was a moment there where maybe like they were getting a little more open minded about sort of queerness in general. But once AIDS happens, it's like you, if people think that you are gay, they're also going to think that you have this disease that they don't understand exactly how it gets transmitted. And so they're not going to hire you. You know, and and so there's a real just clamping down on everything. So in 1991, when Poison and Paris is burning when the Sundance Film Festival. And in a matter of a couple years, you're getting like Greg Iraqi and Gus Van Sant and, you know, Go Fish and the watermelon woman and all these other. Yeah, all these films are happening. It is a direct response to a very conservative period of American history, the entire 80s. And the first part of the 90s, it's Reagan and Reagan and Bush. And, and, and so I think the 90s is such a pushback to that and such a response to that that you get to this place where, you know, indie films are embracing romantic comedies about same sex couples, you know, so movies like Jeffrey or, you know, trick are opening wider and getting big kind of glossy pushes paramount makes, you know, in and out during this period, you know, so like, it's definitely a complete sea change. And so I think, yeah, there's always moments of things happening and stuff being exciting and, and, and new innovations. But for me, I think as far as mainstream, you know, like commercial cinema goes, the 90s is a real game changer to step things back inside. Now reading the book, obviously, like, I'm more of that era of the 90s and onward. So like, I, it's not that I'm not going to say I was familiar with everything and I learned nothing that point. But obviously I had, I had more of a genuine interest book wise and start ringing a bell. Yes. I had a more of an interest book wise to see like how you would approach the various things from the from the, from the, from the golden air, the golden age of Hollywood and the classic errors or what have you. Sure. And it's a TCM book. So I couldn't be sure. Yeah, that makes sense too. So a few things I wanted to put out that both I liked and that is what a question done. One, I did the hardest laugh I had in this book was when you mentioned Vicente Manelli, Judy Garland, and Liza Manelli bringing some kind of queer bingo that made me laugh. That's good. But one thing I really appreciated was Hitchcock obviously has a way of using queer coded characters in his films. And I like that instead of, I mean, you have some, some sections that kind of spotlight a specific film of his, but for the most part, you have this kind of running bit of just saying Hitchcock in the 40s. Hitchcock is like, he was such a given as far as he's going to incorporate this in some way. What was it like during this period of time is I found that got approach neat. Yeah, because I think he's really kind of stands alone in terms of mainstream Hollywood studio filmmakers really playing around with this material and sort of goading the sensors to come after him. And so you get this mix of things where, yes, on the one hand, you've got like Mrs. Danvers and Rebecca, who is this monstrous character who was clearly obsessed with this dead woman fondling her furs and her lingerie. But then you get the mystery writer in Spellbound, who has a female partner and they are not villainous in any way. But then you also get him very intentionally casting like Ivor Novello or a Farley Granger or Lee, you know, most famously, you know, Anthony Perkins and Psycho, where it's like, I know you're closeted, you're going to bring that energy of having a secret hiding a thing to this character that you're playing on film. And whether or not the movie ever acknowledges overtly, I know who you are. And I know that you're going to make that work in this portrayal. And certainly in the case of Perkins, it worked so well that it kind of derails the rest of his career in a way because he becomes so identified with Norman Bates and because he's revealing a side of himself that audiences hadn't seen before and it's hard to shake with Perkins. It did for me because I grew up with Psycho and I didn't, I was like, you know, I know he's an actor. He probably worked other roles. But like for the longest time, I did just know him as Norman Bates. I didn't before I was like more heavily researching and going back and just watching movies for pleasure. So like seeing at the Perkins in the kind of post 1960 films that he's popped up in a lot of Westerns and things. It's like, okay, he has a, like I never thought he was a bad actor was like, he is a rangy actor. He has a lot of interesting roles that he's played before he became synonymous with this very specific thing. Yeah, that that role, I think, really came to sort of, you know, maybe not haunt, but I think to dominate, you know, how we we've thought about it. But like, yeah, I mean, you go back and watch him in like tall story, which is this just goofy and Oculus romcom with Jane, young Jane Fonda. And like, they're really charming together. And he, you know, he was a teen idol. He was a, you know, he released pop singles, you know, but then Psycho happens and Psycho happens, you know, but at least he still got to write the last of Sheila with Sondheim. That's right. That's wonderful. That's what that guy, I recently caught up with like a couple years ago this way. I think around the time Glass Onion was coming out. Oh, yeah. Let me finally watch this movie, Ryan Johnson talks about it. I think WV like, would it be the archive? I think just like released it or something. So like, I'm blue. Yeah, they finally put a blue ray out. Let's see what else I'm a big horror fan. That's a big thing for our, for our, our movie show. And so I was curious to see like how, because that's a genre where you could do a lot of things as far as presenting coded ideas or subtext or themes or what have you. It's, I was certainly curious how you're going to approach areas like that when it came to like the Universal horror films or what have you. And like, I gotta say a little sporadic. Like I'm not saying this need to be, this need to have more horror films in it, but I was curious like, I do like James Whale would come up obviously in the accuracy worked with and Brad of Frankenstein if I would come up more often, but I'm curious how much. Well, I mean, I looked at the first picture you see in the 30s section is James Whale on the set of Frankenstein. So we're getting off my back. Yeah, believe me, again, I know that, you know, I had, I had 95,000 words to cover 130 years of cinema, you know, mostly American. I did include some foreign films that had that played in the States and that had, you know, resonance and importance, you know, with queer audiences. But I mean, even then, like, I, there's a lot I couldn't get to or could only get to sort of, you know, in passing. So, you know, we're talking about James Whale quite a bit. I talk about like the lesbian vampire moment of the, you know, of the 1960s. You know, I believe me, if I'd had the space, I could have done a whole thing about butcher, Baker, nightmare maker, you know, which I think is a fascinating. I think the haunting, I know, is another one that would have had a. Absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, so I try to, a lot of them get sort of listed in the, hey, you should also see this, but I just didn't have the real estate to really go in deep. But I was fortunate enough to participate in the Queer for Fear documentary on Shutter, which I would highly recommend anybody who is interested in the intersection between the world of LGBTQ plus culture and horror, because they really get into it starting with like, you know, the works of, you know, Bram Stoker and Mary Shelley and Oscar Wilde and then sort of moving into early cinema. I mean, I talk about Moore now, obviously, and, you know, his, you know, between Nosferatu and Daryonos Koff, you know, he's sort of laying a lot of groundwork there and then Whale. And so yeah, again, I, you know, I apologize to everyone for not I wish there's so many, so many side avenues I could have gone into and I wish I could have, but I just, I had to kind of, you know, had to keep going. Certainly mildly kidding on this, but that does lead to my other question, which is what were the hardest choices you had to make in terms of choosing films and spotlight? Yeah, I mean, I definitely, I had a draft that was way too long and I had just kind of go through and just start cleaving. You know, there are definitely some some working filmmakers that I had sort of written essays about that had to go and it's kind of like, well, I mean, you know, you're still out there and your, your career is still a work in progress. So I guess it's okay. Those were some of the trickiest ones, I think. And, and you know, obviously you're so much of cinema history in terms of especially studio cinema history, you don't start seeing a lot of women or people of color or, you know, in this case, trans, you know, filmmakers until you get to the more recent decades. So obviously they're getting priority when I do get to the 21st century. It's like, okay, let's, you know, if I have to choose between, you know, writing about like, Sydney Freeland and Elliot Page and, you know, Laverne Cox, or talking about like other filmmakers who I think are really good, but who are, you know, white guys whose careers are still, you know, that stands up to now, like, yeah, he did get him early on back in the 80s. Yeah. But so yeah, so when, you know, with choices like that, it's kind of like, sorry, white guy who still has a career, but I, you know, we gotta go here now. And that is something I found interesting about the book. It's, I mean, it's intentional by default, but like at the end of each chapter, you have just, like you mentioned before, the kind of like, what else was out of this time? And you can tell compared to like the 30s, when you get to the odds and the tech, like there's a lot, there's a lot more pages at that point, which is encouraging, obviously, for various reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, in as much as, you know, and I say the forward, like once we get to 1990, if I missed your favorite movie or, you know, filmmaker, sorry, but like there's, there's way too many now. And that's great. And that's, that obviously shows that we've reached a new pinnacle in terms of, you know, there being this, you know, quantity of artists and of material. But I tried my best to smooch in as much as I could. Fair. Let's see. What else did I want to point out? Oh, well, you had Raymond Barros mentioned. So it's obviously my mind was like, oh, Godzilla's going to ensure enough it was. So I'm very happy about that. Just by default, because that's how that's the kind of person I am. So, of course, if I ever, if I have a reason to point out Godzilla, I will burn. That's what I was like, but my mind is not saying it right. Raymond Burr, Raymond Burr, yes. But no, I did those icon sections I did find to be interesting, but largely because I, I know a thing about a thing. So I have my fair share of knowledge when it comes to a lot of like past movie stars or what have you, people like Rockhudson or what have you, but like sure, seeing these sections devoted to their lives in different ways, I found that to be, it's interesting. It's interesting to like to read like the kind of, of the lengths they would be going, but like the, what the, you know, having an extra dimension on who they were. And I'm curious, like, I already mentioned like what the structure of this book was it does that, was that something you had in mind of like how to do this kind of thing? Or, I, you know, one of the things in the structure was I was, I definitely tried the beginning of each chapter to sort of give a larger context of what's happening in the world right now, because films very often are sort of trailing behind, you know, what's, what's really unfolding. And in the case of talking about LGBTQ+ people the past, you have to remember there were all these structures in place, whether it was employment related or the law or the church or whatever, that was sort of forcing them to go underground and to, you know, be secretive and quiet about who they were. And so trying to put those stories together later, I think generally speaking, you know, queer historians find this, you find yourself having to sort of rely upon like gossip for lack of a better word, you know, for, for, you know, those sort of oral record of people who were around and could talk about, you know, their relationships or their friendships or, oh, yeah, so-and-so we used to hang out with whoever, you know, and so it's not like, it's not the kind of thing where you can find like birth certificates and land records, you know, to give you the information. So, but I, but I do think it's also very important to point out who these folks are, because there is always this concerted effort to erase the accomplishments of queer people and to sort of pretend that, you know, oh, it's this new thing and we just prop that in nowhere and we've never really contributed anything to society and we're nothing but this menace that's out to like, you know, destroy your life and steal your children or whatever. And it's like, no, we've always been here and guess what? We've always been in Hollywood and we've always been making these movies and in the case of people like More Now and James Whale, like, there's no cinema without us. Like, these are, these are, you know, fundamental cornerstone architects of the media. It makes me think of Westerns and the lack of Black cowboys in them. And then I certainly, only in fairly recent times are there more movies that are kind of focused on showing the West for what it was when I, yeah, for sure. And just recently now, with like the bass Reeve stuff that's kind of coming out of the coming more popular, where I can go back to just last year, we talked about the film Posse from Mario Vampirons for the, in honor of its 30th anniversary for 1993. And it's like, there's so much prevalence of certain kinds of things that yes, get buried because who writes the history books and what we want to emphasize and what have you exactly. And what's cool about this book is that it's sort of part of a series, unofficially, I think that the TCM has been putting out. So you had, you know, Donald Vogel's Hollywood, Black a few years ago, that was followed by Luis Reyes is Viva Hollywood, which is the Hispanic, let's say, a version of this. And so, you know, I think these books are doing a really good job of being like, you know, cinema, and you know, some of these figures, but maybe you don't know these other figures, or you don't know these other movies, or you don't know the importance that these, you know, these not white or not straight artists have had, you know, in cinema history. So I'm glad they exist. And I hope that, you know, that people are learning more and understanding more about the many different communities that came together to make Hollywood Hollywood. Well, as a history graduate, I do just like absorbing knowledge in this kind of way. Certainly when it comes to film history, where I've, you know, put so much of my efforts, the past few decades, it's just, it's really neat to still just learn different aspects of different areas of, you know, the century plus a long time that we've had to spend with film at this point. Alonzo, thank you very much for talking to me about your book. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. It's available in all stores now, right? And online, yeah, Amazon, all that anywhere you can find books. Yes, exactly, including your local library. It's a, it's a, it's a book. It's an ebook and an audiobook. So whichever you care to enjoy these two. Could you do the audio or something? I did the audio. You did the audio. Oh, yeah. And I read it like a sucker. I could. Oh, you know, it is a gorgeous piece of work. Like, and I can say, it's a really, I like, I had nothing to do with it. The layout, the photos, the design is really beautiful. I'm so proud of, of how this thing looks just as an object. And then, you know, the text is nice too. Very cool. Well, once again, thank you very much for talking to with me about your book. And with that said, that's going to do it for this week's episode about now there and eight. You can follow everything I do at my personal sub stack page, the code is eat that sub stack.com. I am the editor in chief over a weekly of entertainment. All my movie reviews could be found there. I write blue ray and criteria reviews over at life. So blue and among all the socials at errandsps for a lot of other early where can people find more of you online? Oh, golly, let's see. Well, I'm the film critic at the film verdict dot com. So you can read my reviews of new movies there. I'm on a ridiculous amount of podcasts, including linoleum knife, which you mentioned, which my husband Dave White and I have been doing since 2010. I'm on maximum film on the maximum fun network. I do a show called breakfast all day with Christy Lemire that you can catch on YouTube or as a podcast. I pop in regularly at deck the hallmark to talk about usually non hallmark Christmas movies. And my latest podcast that is just dropping now is the film library, a canopy podcast. Oh, yes. Daniel Thompson, I've been talking to filmmakers and critics about different kinds of different, you know, just categories of cinema, but also about the many amazing films that you can see on canopy for free with a library card. Our guests for season one, which is in the prices of coming out now, include Patton Oswalt, Justin Simian, Cheryl Dunier, Kristen Lopez, Francis Lee, Alex Winter, and recent Pulitzer prize winner, Justin Chang. Well, there you go. Yeah, Abe and I are big fans of canopy. We recommended all the time because it's just, it's our favorite streaming service. Oh, it's great. I'm watching victory right now on canopy. I've never seen the Stallone Kane Pele classic before. Classic John Houston, John Houston's village is one of his, one of his final films. It is certainly a movie that they filmed with cameras as I've watched it so far. But we're big fans of canopy and that's very cool. There's a podcast devoted around canopy. So thank you on that. You can find all the other episodes about now, if you want iTunes, audiobube, Spotify, and Stitcher, feel free to follow us at all the socials, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, we're all some form of slash out now underscore podcasts. You can email us at nupogs@dmail.com. Again, iTunes reviews ratings are good to get those helps out the show. And yes, next week, we're going to talk. What are we talking about next week? What is it? A quiet place, of course, day one. That's our, that'll be our show for next week. And of course, there's plenty of movies coming out. We're around that time. So we might have some extra bonus stuff coming your way, just like we've had for the past few weeks. But with all that said, Alonzo, thank you very much for joining me today. My pleasure. That's always a, always a good time talking. And thanks once again to Jimmy O for joining us as well for our review of the bike riders. Thank you, the listeners for listening. And that's good for this week. So until next time. So long. Yeah. (upbeat music) ♪ I want to harm up but the town's too small ♪ ♪ I want to tell everybody I feel like they don't ♪ ♪ Now my baby loves me, I want to shout it out ♪ ♪ But you're just stayin' really knockin' around ♪ ♪ I want to harm up but the town's too small ♪ ♪ I want to harm up but the town's too small ♪ ♪ I want to harm up but the town's too small ♪ ♪ I want to harm up but the town's too small ♪ ♪ That she's my one and all ♪ ♪ I want to have a wedding in my honor, my friend ♪