Through Every Season
Deconstructing & Reconstructing Your Faith: Jacci Turner
(laughs) Hello, this is Ashley. Welcome to the Through Every Season podcast. Everyone is welcome here, and it's a safe space for you to explore your faith in God. We all go through different journeys in life. That includes highs, lows, and everything else in between. Grab a drink of the day, a snack, and take a seat. We'll help you walk through every season. (keyboard clicking) Hello, everyone. Welcome to Through Every Season podcast. I wanted to hop on here and give a little bit of an introduction and disclaimer. As we get into the topics of this episode, I'm going to come out and say it, that I do think that this is probably our most controversial episode yet. I do think it is going to ruffle some feathers. And so I wanted to come on here and give a disclaimer about some of the topics that we're going to talk about today. So the topic for today is going to be surrounding deconstructing and reconstructing your faith. What both of those mean, and the whole meat and potatoes of that topic, is going to solely be discussed in the episode. And I'm not going to really talk about that right now. What I do want to talk about is we do discuss the LBGTQIA+ community or the gay community in this episode. Our guest, which is Jackie, is her son who is very passionate about this population, has done some personal ministry, as well as counseled this population in her personal life. She feels that it is her calling, and she also talks about this in the episode, but she feels it is her calling to minister to this specific population. I feel like as a Christian community, we really, in modern day society, concentrate on this one sin in the Bible. And because of that, a lot of Christians spew up a lot of hate towards people who are gay. I'm just going to be flat out and honest. I've seen it a lot. I think as our world becomes more secular, if you will, that Christians build up a wall. And anything that goes against the word of God, they start throwing stones. And if you've know anything about the Bible, we do not cast stones. When I started this recording, I had no idea what I was going to say about this episode. This is completely Christ-led. I want those who listen to this episode to do so with a heart and a love for thy neighbor. I want you to remember that no matter who you are, you are loved by Jesus Christ. Every single person that is on this earth has been touched by God. They are loved no matter what their sin is. It specifically states in the Bible, I'm pretty sure that I've said this in another episode. We can hold our community as a Christian faith accountable. Believe me, Jesus held the Pharisees and everybody else accountable during his ministry and during his times. But when it comes to those who are non-believers, we leave it up to God. And I want that to be very clear as we go into this episode to really listen to the message and the conversation and the discourse that is going on between Jackie and I. We're gonna dive right in, folks. So welcome Jackie to the Through Every Season podcast. I am so stinking excited to have you on the podcast today and talk about what we're talking about because it's such a hot topic that I see on social media. And I'm sure a lot of people will resonate with the topic and just have interest because they've probably seen a hashtag or seen a video on TikTok or Facebook or Instagram Meals, whatever you see the little videos nowadays. So I am so excited, I would just dive in with you today. I'm gonna have you introduce yourself to everyone and tell them what you're all about. We have Jackie turn her on the podcast and here she is. - All right, thank you, Ashley, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. What am I about? I am a marriage and family therapist. It works with trauma, mostly. And I'm also the author of 14 books, 12 for young adults and middle grade kids fiction. And then I have two for grownups. One of those is fiction and one is nonfiction, but they're both spiritually focused books. - That is just absolutely incredible. But not only do you work in the behavioral health field, which we love around here. We love mental health. We love it, we love it around here. But you also wrote 14, 14 books. Like that is just absolutely incredible. And again, we'll get into this later, the different books that you've written. But what I really need to do is my mother-in-law is a librarian at a elementary school. And I need to ask, have you seen her books in your library? So I'm definitely gonna text her this week and ask her. - That would be great. I don't, I don't know if they're there, but boy, if she asked for, maybe they would be. - Yes, you know, there we go. If they're not there, maybe, maybe they won't be. So as everybody knows, we do the drink of the day around here. So Jackie, do you have a drink of the day to share with us today? - Well, it's not very exciting. It's my water. I just drink water. And then I don't even really drink coffee, but when I do, it's decaps. So people are like, what? But once a day, I do have a diet Pepsi. That's like, you know, I know it's not good for you, but I already had one today, so I'm on water again. - You know what? I am all, 'cause you know, I work in the addiction and recovery field. And I'm like, harm reduction? You can apply that to pretty much any part of your life, you know? You're only having one diet Pepsi a day. That is reducing harm. You could be having two or three. - You could, yeah. I really like them. - I'm a diet coke girlie. So do you notice the difference in the taste between coke and Pepsi? - No, I really don't. I try and I'm like, I don't know why I always stick to Pepsi, but to me, they taste very similar, so. - I used to think that too. Now I'm like, yeah, they taste a little bit different, but if I have to do a diet Pepsi, you know what, I'll do a diet Pepsi. I don't discriminate. We have our preferences as humans, but I don't discriminate. - Do you have a drink of the day? - I do have a drink of the day. So, you know, everybody needs to be like you, Jackie, and to hydrate themselves and only drink water. I've had multiple guests on the podcast where they're like, I have my water. And I'm like, yes, we all need to stay hydrated. And I have not been drinking enough water. I just haven't been, I haven't been that thirsty lately. So I kind of have to force myself to drink water and have it in a little bit of a fun way. So I have a Waterloo. We have a lot of sparkling water and probiotic sodas on the podcast. - Wow. - I have a Waterloo. It's in summer berry. So it's a little summery, a little festive. - Yeah. - So there we go. I did, I have seen some mixed things online if sparkling water actually hydrates you, but it's probably better than like coffee and alcohol that dehydrates you. - Right. - Yeah. - There we go. - I can imagine you would be bad for you. - Right? Oh my God. I like carbonation. So that's gonna be my thing. And I can't have coffee at, you know, 639. - No. - Yeah, I would hate myself tomorrow morning when I have to be at our clinic bright and early. So we just can't have that. So we have a very interesting topic today. And it's kind of a buzz, buzz phrase or buzz word. So some of you may be really familiar with, again, just seeing different things online, but it is about deconstructing and reconstructing your faith. So we're going to get right into it. But first we're going to start off with Jackie, as she already said, she is a trauma-informed therapist. And here on the Through Every Season podcast, we love trauma-informed. We provide a trauma-informed space, but for those who they either aren't familiar with what being trauma-informed is, or maybe it's their first time hearing about being trauma-informed. They don't work in the behavioral health space like we have. What, in your own words, does it mean to be trauma-informed? - It means understanding how trauma works in your brain, how it gets stuck in the animal part of your brain. So that's where the fight, flight, freeze stuff happens. And when your trauma gets triggered, you go into that, there's no logical thinking. So what our goal is to move it to the frontal lobe of our brain, the executive functioning part, where we can see it more logically and understand that it happened in the past and not in the present, and because trauma gets stuck in the present. And so it's just really about understanding trauma, how it gets stuck in your body, how your brain can heal itself, and which is fantastic news, right? And I work a lot with women who were sexually abused as children, that kind of seems to be who comes in. And I was just seeing a lot of healing. We used to do it in just through talk therapy. And this, I use EMDR, which is a newer method, which moves it through much faster, which I really appreciate. And they do too, 'cause they don't have to stay as long. - There we have it folks. You got like just a little bit of a brain lesson too. We love it, we absolutely love it. So what led you to kind of want to be in the mental health field or behavior health field and become a therapist? What was the inspiration behind that? - So my husband and I worked with college students in a pastoral care ministry for decades. And over time, the students came in with bigger and bigger problems. And we're like, I don't know what I'm doing. So I thought, oh, I'm gonna just take a couple counseling classes so I can understand what they're talking about and how to help. And then when I did that, I'm like, oh, this is super interesting. I think I'm just gonna keep studying this. And my husband would edit my papers and then he got super interested. So we both ended up becoming therapists in the second half of life. I did school counseling and private practice and different kinds of therapy as long as I'm working with college students. So that's what happened. I got sucked into it 'cause it's so interesting. - Oh my gosh, we need therapists. It seems like, especially with younger generations, there are so many mental health struggles among kiddos and even very, very young. So 100% need people in the mental health space. So thank you for what you do. - Oh, thank you for what you do. It's very similar. - Yes it is, yes it is. So prior to being in the mental health field, you were kind of in the Christian space or you were kind of in, as you said, doing pastoral work. So how did you get into that segment of your work? - Well, I became a Christian right before I graduated from high school and I went to college and there was a Christian group. I chose the college, let me say, because it was a party school, I was so excited. And then I became a Christian and then there was a Christian group that met downstairs in my dorm and I got involved and it really helped me grow and flourish. So when I graduated, I went to work with them for, you know, off and on for the next 40 years, (laughs) long time. - That's awesome, especially 'cause you're like, hey, like I went to this college because I wanna go party, I wanna get away from my parents and I wanna go drink and, you know, do some funny business and oh, just kidding, like I got into Christian work. - Yes, kidding, yeah, I had a blast too because this was like right at the end of the Jesus movement and there were so many Christians. Like this campus was at the top of the drinking party campus list and we had maybe seven Christian groups on campus and they were all full. I mean, it was just so fun. - Oh my gosh, we need that. We need that to come back. Definitely, I think it's way in college spaces. So how's that? - Yeah, that is just so, that's so interesting. And I'll say at least it's a little bit of a hodgepodge, especially being in recovery. There is a lot of Christian influence and presence within the recovery community. And I do think within the mental health community too. But there's also just as much non-Christian people in the mental health or behavioral health field too. So as a trauma-informed therapist who also is a Christian, what do you believe to be the top issues within the church today? - Within the church today. - Okay, well, I'll tell you a story. So my husband and I started this group for what we call disgruntled Christians. And what it was was all these kids of our friends, basically who had been born and raised in the church and then left and they were disgruntled by the church. So we asked them that question. Why do you think people are leaving the church? And they, these are the main things they said. They didn't like that the church was spending thousands of dollars on the building when it could be helping the poor. They didn't like that they felt like there was a lot of hypocrisy in the leadership. They didn't like that they couldn't bring their gay friends or if they did, they weren't 100% welcome. And they all felt they had all been raised in the purity culture with the purity rings. And they all felt like that was a big disservice to them because when they were told, you know, sex is bad, don't have sex, sex is bad. And then they get married and they're supposed to be like, now have sex and it's going to be fun. You know, it was very confusing messaging to them. So those were the main things that they talked about. - And every single one of those things is so completely relevant. And some of those things we've a little bit touched on, on the podcast because, and again, I don't know if you've listened to some of my other stuff, but I don't think I'm a whistleblower necessarily. But accountability in the Christian faith is so important. I'm not afraid to call out my own community when I think that there's been injustice or if I think that there needs to be improvements, especially again, if it's pushing people away from the church and pushing people away from Jesus. So on here on the podcast, all of that talk is 100% welcome. And this is kind of the perfect segue to talking about deconstructing your faith. - Which again, is a very relevant topic today. So if you're a TikTok, TikTok or whatever they want to call it, you don't TikTok. Well, I don't know why. Oh, you do a TikTok, I'd say you do great on TikTok. Oh my gosh. So you probably, you probably know. So big buzz phrase right now. If you're like on, I'm trying to think of some hashtags, like trauma talk, deconstructing your faith, ex, evangelical, all of that, all of the hashtags, even Christian talk, like you've seen videos that talk about it. And a lot of people will say, you know, they left the church 'cause they had issues with the church or they're just leaving their faith altogether. They have church hurt, that's another hashtag. Religious trauma, another kind of buzz phrase, if you will, but a very relevant one. In your own words, what does it mean to deconstruct your faith? - So for me, one of the things that I think is important is that we need to be able to ask questions about our faith. And a lot of churches don't encourage question asking. You start asking questions like, so why do we believe this? It doesn't often go well, sometimes you get shut down. So deconstruction is giving yourself permission to think about the things you believe and the theologies you've been taught and ask yourself, do I still believe this, is this working for me? Is this panning out in my life the way that, you know, I originally thought, or have I changed or have maybe I need to re-look at this, you know? So deconstruction is just giving yourself permission to rethink the things that you've been raised with or believed and say, do I still fulfill this way? Is this relevant to me? Has it changed? That's kind of the way I see it. And many people who, quote unquote, deconstruct, they often leave their faith altogether. At the very least, leave the church that they were once at. Maybe they're changing churches, but they're at least leaving kind of the community or the church where they were at. Do you think this is the case for the majority of people who are going through that deconstruction phase? If so, why do you think so many people are leaving the face during their deconstruction journey? Yeah, I think they are because they're not, their questions aren't welcome. But I also want to say, and then in my book that we'll talk about later, I talk about the stages of spiritual development, which are just as true and understandable as the stages of physical development and social development. We have a spiritual development. When we're very young, we go through stage one and two, and those are very concrete, good, bad, David and Goliath, some kind of stages. And then when we go into stage three, that's very much about belonging. So finding those wonderful communities, being on the inside of them, learning all the language and the worship and the prayers and just feeling so at peace there, it's a wonderful stage. But when you get to stage four, usually you hit some kind of a, so either there's a divorce or a sickness or a death that causes you to stop and kind of, usually because the way the church is response to you during that hard time. Like, wait a minute, this is not what Christians do. And so then you start asking those questions and that stage four is a very like cranky stage because you're feeling rejected or lost or disgruntled. If you can push through that into the next stages of spiritual growth, then it becomes much broader and more open and the questions are welcome. So people leave generally, I think, because when they hit the wall for whatever reason, people aren't what they had hoped. They're not loving. I've had so many people have gotten divorced and been shunned and one part of the good and everyone else is bad. And, you know, they take sides and it gets caddy or a myriad of things. So people don't, people get tired of your illness. They don't want to take care of you anymore. Or just, you know, the church becomes human, but it's also disappointing, I think, for people. So they start to question. - I've heard from a lot of people and we've had a couple of people on the podcast that have come and they kind of talk about their church and talk about their story. And I feel like whenever the church isn't meeting people with love, that's when people are kind of like, wait. I've been told, you know, however long they've been a Christian for a time, maybe even their entire life, that God is about love. So why am I not being met with it at church where everybody is claiming to be a said Christian? So they kind of, yeah, they see that hypocrisy, that humans are very, you know, susceptible to, if you will, come through and I think, yeah, it definitely turns, turns people away and it's sad. Are you really sad when I hear some of the things that other Christians do to people and it hurts my heart really bad. - Yeah, and it can be very, and as you talked about church religious trauma or whatever, there's a lot of that and it's really true. It's very painful and people don't go back to church because they've been really hurt. And so it makes sense to me, you know, you need to go back to the trauma people. - No, no, no, no, our brain wants to keep us away, keep us away from the trauma and, you know-- - Run from the trauma. - Run from it and avoid. So if that's causing you trauma, that's the last thing that your body and your brain wants to do is set in the place and be a part of the place that causes me to say, right, you're triggering. - Very triggering. That's another really popular word online too. So with deconstruction, obviously, that is a subject that you're definitely an expert and at least that I would consider you an expert. And I mean, you wrote a book on it, spoiler alert. So of course you are. But because of that passion for the subject and that expertise, if you will, has deconstruction been a part of your own faith journey or your own life? And if so, could you speak on that? - I sure can. And this is my story and I'm not trying to convince anybody else about my story, okay? But I will be very honest with you. So this organization that I gave my life to for almost 40 years, my husband and I over time became advocates in the LGBT community because God just kept bringing us rainbow people and we fell in love with them and we support and encourage them. And at some point, I became at odds with my organization over that because they wanted me to sign something that said only men and women can be married. And at some point, I couldn't do that. So I had a decision to make. Basically, they said, "You need to leave by this date." So, but what happened after that, after my whole life had been a part of this community was, I suddenly was shunned by the entire community. Everyone said, "Oh, she's on the slippery slope." And I got uninvited, I used to speak at national levels and train at national levels and speak at women's conferences. I got uninvited overnight to all of those things. So it was very disorienting and very painful and took many years to sort through in that grumpy stage that I was talking about because you feel betrayed by your family. When you work for a Christian organization or a church, you're not just working, it's also your family. It's also your fellowship, it's also your friends. And then when people start unfollowing you on Facebook because of, you know, you decide to be an ally, then that's very disappointing. So that was what sent me on my journey of deconstruction actually was just, "Gosh, what do I believe now?" And I couldn't go back to church for a long time because it was very triggering. - Yeah. And I don't work for a Christian organization, but at my work, they don't have me sign a piece of paper saying, "You need to believe what we believe." I mean, I just think whether you're a part of a Christian organization or not, you're not signing your life away to the church, you know, if you worship a God, that's greater than that. And that's just absolutely in my mind, just ludicrous, ridiculous. - Wow. - And I'm sure that was really hard to lose, lose that community that you have built up over all of these years too, lose friendships, have people unfollow you because you were passionate about some of the people that you were helping? - Yeah, it was really hard. My husband and I realized, well, if we're gonna lose a job over this, we should at least try to do something positive about it. So we started a group called Shalom, and it was for Christians that have been hurt by churches because they were gay or involved in the rainbow family in some way, and there were a lot of them, a lot of them. And so we had this group, Shalom, it was very healing and the people in that, they're kind of stuck developmentally. It's hard to move forward developmentally if you've been hurt like that. So over the course of time, we saw those people grow and flourish and buy homes and adopt children and get married and get baptized. I mean, we saw healing happen because they were stuck and unfortunately it was because of the church. So we wanted to turn that around a bit. - Yeah. And I think that's awesome that you were able to create a space where people felt safe and they felt hurt. And I think that that's really important for people who have been hurt from religious organizations or faith-based organizations or whatever term you would like to use. And I will say the LGBTQIA+ community, that is a topic that Christians get very heated over or they don't wanna touch it with like a 10-foot pole. It is like one, probably really realistically, one of the only topics within Christianity that really people get just extremely heated over. It's crazy that we're just not loving our neighbors no matter who they are 'cause that's who we're called to do. Kind of a little bit going off of that. There's definitely a legalistic approach to that and kind of what you were talking about with having to sign a document saying, this is what I believe in. Do you think deconstruction often unveils kind of legalism and legalistic practices within the church? - Oh, definitely. A lot of times it's when the culture is shifting that it highlights those, well, if you think back, Christians didn't used to be able to play cards or go to movies or dance or wear pants or on and on on. And these are all cultural things that are not gospel things that the church made stands against over time in this, in my opinion, is one of those, probably the last holdout of and that's why everyone's pulling so hard. But I believe that in the two, the great commandments, love God, love other people. And I try to live in that space and leave the rest up to God. It's gonna be the judge of anything. - That's exactly, I view it too and in my work, especially 'cause I do community-based work. So often I'm in spaces where I'm trying to connect with people and I've talked about it on the podcast before. I'm trying to connect with people in the community who are pregnant and then also have substance use. So I'm sometimes human trafficking drop-in centers or places that give out food in the community, free stores, libraries, believe it or not. You know, I'm in all these different places. And so I come across people who are a part of the gay community or they're also somebody who identifies as trans. And in my mind, it is always my goal to love them and to love them even harder. Sometimes I do see, I saw somebody who was trans. At the human trafficking drop-in center that I'm at twice a month. And this person was carrying around the Holy Bible. And my thought was, wow, like I'm so excited if they're like exploring Jesus. So why the heck would we want to keep these people away from church? - I mean, and that's really the only people that Jesus got mad at. If you think about it or read it, the only people Jesus got mad at are the people that were trying to keep other people away. Right, the Pharisees and the Sadducees were trying to say, no, you know, these people can't come to faith. And he's like, oh yeah, they can. And I'm mad at you for trying to keep them from coming. And here we are now, we're the Pharisees. We're the Sadducees. We're trying to keep certain people out of the church and keep them away from God. And I don't believe that's what we're supposed to do. - I don't either. Let me tell ya, I do not either. The thing that we should, if we're going to have church doors, they need to truly be open. So along with deconstructing your faith, and I will say maybe people don't exactly know this side of it, but there's also reconstructing your faith. So in your own words, what does that mean? - So in the world of the stages of spiritual development, there's a lot of good books out there on that. Well, and I wrote one too, but when you get past that grumpy stage and you try to figure out, okay, well, obviously I still love God and I still love you. I've not met anybody who's gone through deconstruction who says that they don't still love God or Jesus. It's the church they have issues with. So now what do I do? How do I find my people? They don't congregate, you know, really. And sometimes they do. And in the more open churches, you might find, you know, I mean, you're people, but how do I find my people? You know, where do I go? What do I do? And I love this analogy of a bigger basket. Now you've got a bigger basket and you can see more of God in the world. You might find, like when I was young in the faith, people were super, Christians were super weird about yoga. Like, oh my gosh, you can't do yoga because that's a different religion or, you know, and I found later that, gosh, I love yoga. It is such a life-giving, meditative experience. Trauma-wise, it's super good for connecting your body to your mind. It's helping you stay in the present moment. It's a really healthy, healthy, in my opinion, exercise. And so when you start to put things in your basket that are maybe outside what you were originally heard was okay, like you might find a roomy poem that just resonates with your soul or music that fills you, that wasn't necessarily a Christian singer. And so it's not that God isn't there. It's actually that God gets much bigger because now you've kind of let your little God box be blown apart and God is like, yeah, there's more to me than you know. Let's go even deeper. So really it's the deeper journey and it's freeing and it's wonderful, but you have to get through that. Stage four, grumpy stuff first. Yoga is another one. Within the Christian faith that I feel like can be controversial, definitely not as controversial as some other subjects. And personally for me, I'm more of a Pilates gal. I will, I will, I will say that. But I know I was talking to somebody, this was a long while ago about yoga. And they're like, well, you're worshiping Hindu gods, you know, as you're doing these different yoga poses. And I was kind of thinking, I'm like, you know, a lot of these yoga poses, I did modified versions of these when I was a competitive dancer. I did modified versions of these when I was in PE through what is it, elementary school, through at least part of high school. And I wasn't worshiping Hindu gods when I was stretching. - Right, you don't have to, I mean, nowadays in America, there's hardly any of the religion left in yoga, it's mostly just the poses. And the pose, my yoga instructor's Jewish, you know, very open about that. But it doesn't, it's your own mindset, right? What are you doing? When they ask, you know, what's your intention? I'm like, I really wanna, today, I just really wanna pray for my friend who's going through something. And that's the intention I take into yoga or I wanna connect with my body because I've been in my head all day, whatever, you just stretch, that's my intention. I mean, you don't have to, you know, do something weird in yoga. - No, you don't even really, you don't even have to meditate. You could be somebody that maybe you're just doing stretches, you're holding that stretch or you're holding that pose for a longer time and really setting into it with your body. Yeah, it is all about intention. So many things when you're a Christian, it's all about your intentions behind what you're doing. - I mean, I think that's true for everybody. I mean, if we walk around with the intention of love, as you said, to see that of God and people, to look for that, to cherish people, that especially people that aren't being cherished, isn't that really the core of the gospel? Jesus went around loving and cherishing people that other people rejected, tax collectors centers. He was right there showing us how to do it and that's what we need to do. - 100%. And so maybe we have an individual, they've kind of gone through that deconstructing phase. And now they're kind of like, do I want to reconstruct? What do I believe? I don't really know where I want to go. For individuals, kind of teeter tottering on where they want to go after their deconstruction phase, what are your words of wisdom or advice for those individuals? - First, I just want to say you're not alone and also you're not crazy. This is a natural stage of spiritual development. It's very normal. They teach trained spiritual directors who are people that just sit with other people and journey with them on their spiritual journey. And the first time we get together, they tell their story and their faith story is always so circuitous. I mean, they are like, and then I did this and then for a while I went off, did that and I came back around, but God was always there. And then they end up in this great deep spiritual place, but the road to get there was always really crazy. And I think we have to trust that God is big enough to take care of people that are in the deconstruction process and that God will bring them to a place of peace and depth and spiritual maturity when it's time. So does that have to happen inside of church? Not necessarily. Can it? Yes. A lot of people end up back in churches or maybe they go to a different kind of church and try that, try several, see where they fit. I'm in a small group that I just love. It's with other people that have gone through deconstruction and we meet twice a month and we really are doing life together. So you've got to find your people and that's the hard part, I think, but they're out there. You're waiting for you. - There's always community. And I love how you mentioned that that reconstruction doesn't have to be done in a church. I know that we had somebody on the podcast in my season one, Tristan, who she quoted, I have been to the Vatican, but I felt Jesus more when I was out doing mission in a developing country and that was more beautiful than the Vatican. I feel like I love the big trees in California, the redwoods and I feel like those are holy spaces. Like they are like a cathedral to me when I'm there. I'm just like, okay, the Holy Spirit is definitely in this place and well, God created it. Of course, the spirit of God is gonna be in God's creation. So for me, those are really holy places and also interestingly, I want one time to an NA group and you probably know this more than I do, but those are holy places. - Oh, a hundred percent. - I mean, those people, gosh, when you're desperate, that's where God is. - Oh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful to see, especially people who are like just finding their faith or of course, in NA and AA, they call it a higher power within the 12-step programs. But I love seeing people with childlike faith because they're just so on fire and it's so beautiful. And honestly, I find them inspiring. - Wow, you were just so, you're inspirational. Like you were able to come up from the ashes, if you will. And oh my gosh, yeah, I love those spaces too. They're incredible. And I love how you brought up nature because in my mind, where my mind went was when Jesus was doing his ministry and he needed to disconnect from what was the disciples. And his ministry, he needed to take a step back. He would go nature by himself, isolated for days on end. And I think that there's just so much peace that can be found in nature. I know that if I feel that my head is just, there's too much going on, I have to be outside. And I've been like that since I was younger. When I would go out on my swim set in my parents' backyard for hours because I was thinking about all of the stuff happening in school with my friends or a boy who didn't like me back or whatever. But there's definitely, there's definitely a spiritual connection and nature. - Oh, for sure. And also what you're describing, I call those spiritual practices. So the book that I wrote is full of easy on-ramp spiritual practices. So going for a walk, right? With your intention just to not turn on music, just listen, look, see. And those are spiritual practices to me, places where God can really speak to you. And being alone, especially in our culture, being unplugged is really hard. But oh my goodness, I love the analogy of river water, like you've got a jar and it's full of river water. And it's really cloudy. But if you let it sit for a while, the sediment will fall to the bottom of the jar. And then you can see more clearly through the water. And if we allow ourselves to sit without any distraction from technology for an hour, we'll be able to see more clearly. We'll be able to make better decisions. We'll be able to have a quiet soul. So that's important to me. - That's an amazing analogy, 'cause I would have never thought about that. But as you were describing, yeah, I was just imagining the water and imagining all the stuff dripping down to the bottom. And it's so true that things are clearer when we sit. When we marinate, if you will. Oh God. - People on retreats all the time. And it's always, they're always so afraid of that. I always make them take a couple hours of just in silence. They can walk around, they can sing, they can sit, but they can't read, they can't look at their phone. Oh, they're terrified, terrified. And it's always the highlight of their experience because they just meet God there. Or they meet themselves. And I always say, you can't judge yourself. You're not going there to beat up on yourself. You're going there to sit in a loving presence of God. That's what's important. - That's amazing. And speaking of the word of God and God. So many people have found within religious spaces, which in faith-based spaces, they only know the word of God through what they've been told. Maybe this has been a youth group. Maybe this has been in church or Sunday school or Catholic school, for example, or Lutheran school where they have a, it's part of their curriculum, if you will. So they never have actually read the word of God outside of those very confined spaces, very structured spaces. So a lot of people don't really know Jesus is. They only know what they've been told. So do you think getting into the word of God is vital when reconstructing your faith? - I think it is. Like you said, some people haven't been. I'm marinated in a daily quiet time for four years. And so it's a different experience for me. But I think sometimes there's a lot of trappings around scripture as well. So one way to read it that is less trickery for some people is to take a passage where Jesus is interacting with someone, say blind Bartimas and read it. And then slowly read it again and put yourself in the story and let yourself maybe be blind Bartimas. And Jesus says, you know, what do you want from me? And listen, what do I want? And then ask for it, you know, interact, they call that electio divina to just this slow reading, really be in the scripture and not just read it for information or read it for, you know, spread through the Bible like a lot of people do, really ruminate on some important, especially times when Jesus is saying or doing something, you know, just let yourself be in it. And then I think that's how scripture changes us that we really allow it to sink in deeply. - I think starting out in the gospels is a really great space for people who are new to their faith or they're at least like diving into the word of God, especially if you have some trauma to or some hurt, I think starting out in the gospels is great. I know when I was, when I was younger, I grew up going to a Presbyterian church. So we had a very more traditional version of the Bible. So when I read it, it was really hard for me to understand as a child. And that's what, you know, was being with being read to me. So I honestly, I was like, wow, like, I only think pastors are smart enough to really read the Bible. So I have to have them explain it to me. And that was my preference for the longest time. And I think it's a lot of people's preference 'cause I think people get really intimidated by it. But yeah, I think also, yeah, asking God, like, what do you want me to hear today? You know, what do you want me to get out of this is a really, really beautiful way. And then yeah, starting definitely within the gospels or at least the New Testament, though there are a lot of juicy stuff in the Old Testament. If you kind of read it, you're like, this is a little bit like the Jerry Spinner Show over here. It's a little juicy after, you know, you get kind of through some of the gospels. You're like, I already TV, you might like it. That's right. When I very first told you that I went up to college, I'd just become a Christian. My friend took me over to her sister, her older sister's house, and she was a Christian. I said, you know, I don't, they told me I should read the Bible and pray, but I don't know how to do that, what should I do? So she took this spiral notebook and she opened it. And she said, in the first half of it, you read a passage from a good translation, you know, modern translation and the Bible, just read it until something stands out to you. And then write that thing. And then the second half of your notebook, you draw a line down the center of the page and you put it the top prayers and answers and you write down your prayers and you write down the answers when they come. Well, that was, I don't know, 40 years ago and I still do that to this day. I have, you know, so many books full of answered prayer, which is very, very encouraging. But also that's a good way if you're just starting like, okay, we'll just read until something makes sense to you and then write it down and ponder it. - I think that's great. And sometimes we process things, at least this is how I process things. I have to write things down in order to process. So I think one, having that to kind of process through different prayers, process through those different answers. And also, yeah, look back on and, you know, find encouragement from that, especially if you're kind of maybe going through a challenging time and you're looking back on, okay, well, I got answers when I was going through this challenging time. So that's an encouragement. And what would be your piece of advice for those individuals who are going through the reconstructing phase and they want to find a new church community, what is your kind of advice for people as they seek out a community that they feel safe to get together with people and worship God and explore their faith even deeper? - I think it's fine to give yourself permission to try different kinds of churches. So if you've been in an evangelical church, maybe try more traditional church, like a Methodist church or an Episcopalian church and each one has so much of their own culture, it's going to feel really awkward. But, you know, Quakers go sit with the Quakers in silence for a while and see how that feels. And it's good because it helps you realize that each denomination has beautiful aspects and Christians don't all look the same way, because I think at least for my tradition, there was a certain way to be a Christian. And it's really good to know that God is so much bigger than that, there's Christians that look all different ways. And to expose yourself, and maybe you'll find a place within one of those churches where you feel it feels like home. - I think that's great, especially because most of the people who are listening to the podcast kind of fall in that young adult category. And it's really hard as a young adult to find churches because you have a lot of people who are either like kids with their families and their parents are older than you or there are a lot of people in like our senior citizen community that maybe aren't as open. Some younger folks come in and maybe wanna start their own groups or make some changes. So they feel connected. So yeah, it's definitely harder for some people to really find a place where they feel that they belong. - And you can now be, say you can sample online, right? - Yes, you can. - I can't tell you a story when I started this shalom group. So it's like, it's all people that are rainbow and all over the map, it's crazy. And they're all very young. And the church that we did it out was a church of disciples of Christ Church 'cause they were open and affirming. And so it's very old congregation. And they were doing this Wednesday night soup thing. I think it was during Lent or something. And I asked them, can I bring shalom to your soup? And the old people were so excited and they were so welcoming and they just adored every single one of those crazy kids with their purple hair and their tattoos. So discount those old people because you never know what you're gonna find. - I think that that's amazing. And just amazing also that they were welcoming to them because I know a lot of people are within the gay community. That is like a place where they're like, oh no, I go in there 'cause I know I'm gonna feel judged. I'm gonna be mistreated. So it was amazing that it was the complete opposite of that and they were able to share food and share spaces. And I think that that's great. - Yeah, and these are all Christian gay people. Have been hurt in churches. So it was a risk. I mean, we spent the whole first year just building trust because they were like, what are you gonna do? How are you gonna turn on us? So it took a while, but eventually they did trust us. And we always had a Bible study together and it was funny because at first they're like, okay, so no Old Testament 'cause they've been beat up by the Old Testament. So we only did Jesus. And then later they're like, well, let's try Nehemiah. So we didn't need Nehemiah. And then they're like, let's do Esther. And Esther had so many parallels to their lives that I wouldn't have known. They're the whole thing about hiding who you are and coming out when the time is right. And it was just they saw things I had never seen. So it was really fun. - That's great. And I love that they found parallels with their life like in the Bible too and like with Esther and they were just open to opening up the Bible too. So I think that that is so good. So I really want to, of course, spend time talking about the different books that you have written, which have been 14, which is a lot of books. And you are an Amazon best-selling author. - Yes, and you got to know what that I didn't start publishing books, so I was 50. So you can do anything at any age. You can do anything at any age. So if you're a writer and you're feeling like you're getting behind the eight ball, just remember, I didn't start writing, so I was 50 and I have 14 books. Actually, I've got four on my computer that haven't published yet. But most of them, as I said, are for young adults and middle grade kids. I am a Christian who writes. I'm not a Christian writer. So one time I tried to take my book to a Christian publisher. He said, he was very interested 'cause it was about sex trafficking, you know, Christians are about that. So he goes, "Do someone become a Christian in your book?" I said, "No." He said, "Is there someone who's discipling the kids in your book?" And I'm like, "No, no, I was feeling like I'm not Christian enough, but I'm glad." I don't write Christian books. I am a Christian who writes books. So yes, there are always going to be spiritual themes in my books, but I'm not always right. And I'm same thing with my therapy. I am a Christian who does therapy. I'm not a Christian therapist. But yeah, my books are all young adult and middle grade. So there's not sex or swearing or any of that kind of stuff. Mostly, usually if there's a bad guy he might swear, but they're wholesome. My most recent young adult book was cozy fantasy called "Tree Singer" and it's about a girl that helps trees grow and someone's attacking the forest. So she has to go on a quest to try to find out what's happening. She wants to say home and sing to trees. So it's really an echo-friendly book. And most of my books have justice themes running through them. Snapped is about sexual cyberbullying that happens on Snapchat and a girl has to find her voice against that. Cracker is about racism and again, how to find your voice against that. So they all have some kind of theme like that running through them as well as a good story. - Oh wow, those sound really amazing, especially for people who are younger. And I love how you write about like relevant topics like the sex extortion and sexting too with the Snapchat. Those are all really, really relevant topics for young people, especially because so many young people have phones even younger, you know, as we go on. What led you to want to write fictional books? - I have to say that I was a reluctant reader. So I'm, so I was not one of those kids like I'm gonna be a writer, but I've always been a theater person. So from the time I was five, I was charging my friends a nickel to see my plays. Excuse me. And theater is really like, it was storytelling, right? So I used to do theater in college and then I did theater with my kids when they were young and then it just takes up a lot of hours to do theater. So we asked myself one time, what am I doing? Or what can I do that's creative that doesn't take all my time because I was working? And I realized I could write books. So that's how it started. - That's awesome. I love how you brought up theater too, which is just theater is awesome. I did that when I was in high school and I can definitely see the parallel between wanting to tell a story, but in a different way. So instead of the stage, you're wanting to do it through pages, which I love that parallel. You've also written a book about the LGBTQI place community and the Christianity and kind of, which is a very controversial topic. When you released that book or you published that book, were you faced with a lot of criticism and controversy? - Well, I'm not sure which book you're referring to 'cause a lot of my books have those things, but I wrote a booklet called, but what if we're wrong? - Yes. - One event, like old location. It's just a little booklet. And really it was when I was asked to leave that organization, they wanted me to not talk about why I was leaving, but I had known other people that have left, for whatever reason, people don't know why you're leaving, so they assume the worst. Oh, she had an affair, you know. They started doing that. - Oh my gosh. - Off the big thing, right? I'm like, no, I'm not gonna let somebody else control the narrative of why I'm leaving. I wanted people to really understand. So I just wrote it all down in this little booklet. I published it, sent out a letter explaining why I was leaving to all of my friends, so that it would just, they would understand. Interestingly, I was gonna take it down afterwards, but that is actually the thing that sells the most on my website. - Wow. - Because people are still asking this question, and it's just a little booklet and it has resources, you know, other books that you can read and things, but yeah, I have not. The backlash that I faced happened, you know. Okay, so there were people that got mad at me. There were people that unfriended me, they're family members that unfriended me, that haven't talked to me in my pastor brother, but the backlash was more silent. It was like, I don't know what to say about this, so I'm not gonna say anything. So it was like crickets, which is almost worse, 'cause you're like, hello, hello, everybody out there. People went into radio silence. They didn't know what to say or do, and here I am 10 years later, still praying for them, still loving them, still sending them love notes, and they're all coming back around. Plus, I got a ton of emails privately. My brother's gay, blah, blah, blah. My son just came out, can I talk to you? Can we meet, can we have coffee? A ton of that. So then, I was kind of one of the first people that left over that issue, but after that, there was a cascade of a lot of people that left that organization, but. Yeah, the backlash happened right away, you know. I had three dreams that were very, very spiritually significant, they were all very similar, that I really believe God was saying this is what you need to do, you know. You're called to love people, and that's what I want you to do. So I felt sure of it, and, you know, maybe it was hard, but what people go through that are in the LGBTQIA community is much, much, much harder. So people are like, wow, you went through a lie. I can't believe you did that. I'm like, yeah, but that was nothing compared to what they live with every day for the racism that people experience every day. You know, it really wasn't that big of a deal. It just was for me. Yeah, and I definitely think that more Christians, who they're going to people in the gay community and they're reminding them that Jesus loves them no matter what, and Jesus loves them just as much as anybody else. Love them just as much as the person who goes to church every single Sunday. They wear skirts, they dress very modestly. They're abstaining from sex until they're married. You know, somebody who would be considered very straight-laced in the church, they're loved just as much. There is no, he loves us all the same. We don't earn it through our works. And I think a lot of the gay community has been told otherwise. And the Christian community is so, so gosh, I'm scared to go into these spaces and try to reach people and bring them into their community. It's not, it's not being done. So I think it's incredible that you've been able to do that and start your shalom as well. And I just hope that other people are able to do the same because it's not being done enough. That's why we have so many people leaving or not joining the church is because they need to welcome. - Create new spaces where people feel welcome, whether that's art groups or book clubs or, you know, it doesn't have to be church, church, but in dinner groups, not everybody is called to do this with that community, but we're all called to do something with some group on the margins. And you know, I always feel bad, like, 'cause I don't do enough for the homeless or, you know, I don't work with pregnant, you know, drug addicts or whatever, but we're all called to do something. And the thing that we're called to do, that's what we need to focus on. And so this is my thing. I think that that is absolutely, absolutely amazing. And you also have a newer book called Tumbled People. And it was released, was it a year ago in 2023? Was it May 2023? - Yeah, it was a year ago, it's having its birthday. - Aw, we love that one. (laughs) - And it's my first non-fiction, well, besides for the booklet. - Yeah. - Oh yeah, no one can see this, but it is big. It is like the size of a spiral notebook. And the reason I want to do, and it's very beautiful. - That's very cool. - The reason I wanted to do that is because I wanted to have journal pages inside for people to write. And it has these side bars with more information and it takes you through a lot of spiritual practices. And the whole back of it is full of extra spiritual practices. I write a blog called Spiritual Practices 101 that has a lot of these spiritual practices in it. But I just wanted it to be like something people can write and I like to write in non-fiction books. And I wanted people to be able to journal and process. And it's not like, I just want to read through this book. It's more like, I want to sit with this, I want to ruminate, I want to, you know, and people, I've taken people on tumbled, people retreats. And it goes deep. So, you know, using it in a small group with a small group of people, it goes deep right away. Wow, that may even be a book that I bring up. I co-lead our young adult group at our church that maybe we can dive into. 'Cause it sounds like a really relevant topic for us as well. And I will say your book has amazing view or amazing reviews on Amazon. Like people love it. - Yeah, it really ends with it. - Not everybody loves it. I had a friend that read it and he wrote a good review and then at the end, he said, I hope she just, I hope she comes back to God. And I'm just like, okay, honey, whatever. I love, I love God, I love Jesus. - Well, I just want to thank you so much, Jackie, for coming on the podcast. I had an absolute blast sitting down and talking with you today through all these different topics. Some of them a little bit controversial, but if people know me, they know I like to talk about those types of topics. 'Cause somebody's got to do it, right? So yeah, but where can people follow you? Where can they find you? - I like the socials. So my name is Spellfunny. It's J-A-C-C Turner. It's Jackie, but it's spelled like J-C. And so if you go on, my website is jackieturner.com. TikTok, Jackie Turner, author probably. I've got Instagram, I've got Facebook. So I'm pretty much anywhere you want to be, but it's usually J-A-C-C, I'm a Turner. And whatever, whatever platform. - I'll list them all in the podcast description too, like I usually do as well. But yes, thank you so much for coming on. - Oh my gosh, I enjoyed our conversation so fun. - Yes, yes it was, it was an absolute blast, but as we always close out on the podcast, you're welcome to explore your faith here. Jesus always welcomes you home. And so will I, and we'll see you next time. - Oh. - How's the recording here? - Thanks for tuning in to through every season podcast. You can find new episodes on Spotify and Apple podcast on the second and fourth Friday each month. You can find us on Instagram and Facebook using the links in the podcast description. Do you want to come and tell your story or testimony? Fill out the jot form listed in the podcast description. We'll see you next time. [ Pause ]