Co-hosts Jared Yates Sexton and Nick Hauselman discuss the un-shocking news that President Joe Biden will not seek re-election in November.
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The Muckrake Political Podcast
🚨 Biden Gets Out Of Race 🚨 Emergency Pod
Hey everybody how's it going? Uh, someday we called this. We said it was going to happen probably today. Here we are still just crazy. Absolutely crazy. Yeah. Uh, Halperin I guess was correct on his Friday. Pronounous prognostication on Twitter where, uh, no, no, no. Mark Halperin said the Biden was going to drop out. There was a structure in place to do this. He didn't say anything about Kamala Harris taking the baton. Everybody getting behind her the beat. We cannot give Halperin dab on this. Wait, he said that he was going to sort of say that he supports Kamala Harris. That's pretty close to what happened. No, right. I'm not going to let this podcast on over. But you know what I mean, he was the first guy I saw to say it on Friday, but either way, again, it's not shocking. We were talking about this. You're right. The whole time. Um, and I think what's going to be interesting is how this shakes up. Now you are pretty concerned. Um, are not concerned. You're pretty convinced that it's simply Kamala will take the lead here and no one's going to challenge this. Yeah, I've been, uh, been watching this thing start to take shape and one of the one of the emerging ideas that has happened with all of this is that in the past week, the Democratic Party and its apparatus and leaders. Uh, its donors actually is another aspect of this have started to get very bullish on Kamala Harris. And they believe that she can defeat Donald Trump. She believes that she can effectively, uh, prosecute the case against them. They also believe that the money that they have already raised will not only, uh, you know, be put to good use, but that the donors are going to open their checkbooks back up. Uh, so it has been starting to move as conventional wisdom became the Biden was going to drop out. Uh, the Democratic Party has gotten, uh, behind Kamala Harris, pretty full force at this point. You know, it's a good use of the term prosecute the case, uh, because then she's at her best. She's doing the lawyer thing that she was so good with, especially as a, uh, the attorney general in California and when she's been in the Senate and doing that the cross examination stuff is really, she's doing the wrong thing. Um, you know, again, is this more of a notion of we've finally got someone who can be younger, more energetic. All those things that we were wringing your hands about doesn't matter who it is. That's simply going to spark all the excitement and get us going in the right direction. Yeah, I mean, I think that makes a big difference. Uh, the Democrats that I've been talking to over the past few days, and let me tell you something. There's been just an absolute flurry of activity for the past month. Like I said, on a previous podcast, it's been one meeting and discussion and argument after after another with the party. As I've been talking to people, there is a sense of relief within the Democratic Party. And by the way, you'll notice how these things change. Like right now, there is so much good will towards Joe Biden. And think about how much antipathy there has been over the past month. On top of that, Nick, I just want to throw a few things out there. Um, Biden was carrying Gaza around like a chain. You know, like it was just, it was turning off a lot of voters who weren't going to be able to couldn't couldn't square that with their conscience. Then on top of it, it changes the media narrative completely. It feels like people are starting to be able to move beyond watching every press conference and speech through their fingers. Um, there is a growing sense already, and I've talked to a few people since the announcement was made higher up in the party. There is a sense that this is a godsend. I mean, there are still questions and I'm sure we're going to cover this. We'll talk about it today. We'll talk about it when we get into everything on Tuesday. But there is a sense that she can beat Donald Trump. There's a question about it. And I'm sure we'll talk about it. Obviously, we'll see it take place. But you know, it's a little bit of uncertainty, but it is nothing compared to the albatross that has been around the neck for the past month. Yes, I look really good points all along the Israel thing, although to me, the Israel thing is also kind of as is normal in this country. We forget about stuff. And after enough time, you know, we don't talk about Ukraine as much. It doesn't have the same emotional impact. And we don't talk about Gaza. People are still trying and still still trying to keep it in front of everyone's faces. But I do wonder, and I think that's what I was even saying for months ago was that you know, by November, people might have ended up forgetting it wouldn't have been such a huge weight on his on him. But I, because again, I think we don't we're not going to beat around the bush here. The biggest weight he had was that he couldn't speak very well. He didn't seem to be able to present strength and he didn't present the notion that his brain was functioning at a level good enough to be a president of the United States. To the point where now, you know, he's not going to step down from the presidency. I don't think that's that's not part of his plan. He's going to finish this out. But I certainly think that that's another one of those reasons if you can't finish a presidential election for another few months, how can you possibly be in the elbow office now running the country. I think there are potentially millions of voters who this afternoon, they're not making the decision yet but it is, it is now a decision to make, which is they were planning on not voting for Joe Biden because of Gaza. And that is now a question for a lot of people who the big question and this is another thing I've been talking to people about, have they gotten to the point where they have given up on the Democratic Party at lunch. Right, like this party doesn't represent me, they've had power, they haven't used it the way I would like them to use it, Gaza, you name it. But there's another thing here Nick and I want to say a quick little caveat and again we'll discuss this more on Tuesday. I think that what has happened in the past month with Joe Biden's age was not just isolated to that we saw it throughout this entire term. It was always part of the story is is is Biden too old is is by not quite with it. On top of that, the story from the beginning, you know, starting with Afghanistan, what happened there, this presidency has been plagued with a ton of of unpopularity problems communicate. I could talk for hours about how poorly this administration communicated and talked about not only what they wanted to do, but also their relationships with the media, which were needlessly antagonistic. And now you have a completely blank page. And here's the thing Nick, we don't yet know who Kamala Harris is in this type of position. You know, it reveals a lot about a person. We know what we've seen so far and there's a variety of reasons why perhaps what we've seen has been what we've seen. But you now have a few months to make a new narrative and get away from the Biden presidency and start talking about potentially something new. You know, I definitely think, if all is said and done in the books are written later. I might have a little bit of sympathy for people who are trying to run the Biden campaign even in 2020, because, you know, as a candidate, he's not the best at doing those and they had to make fashion a certain way to have that happen like, you know, he didn't really campaign much in 2020. They had the COVID as well. And then, and certainly in this campaign issue as well, making a lot of mistakes. So the question now is Kamala Harris takes over. And it makes sense. Obviously, the money goes right to her. That's the only person that could get it. I said, imagine she's going to swab the decks and just put a whole new team in place. Right. And the question now is who's going to be able to jump in there right away and get on this and start to get this going in a better track. And then the other thing I'm wondering is, does any poll that shows us information between Harris and Trump, do those even matter if they're two days old at this point versus what will come out tomorrow. A poll that was taken three hours ago doesn't matter anymore. And, you know, what you just said about the teams, there's not enough time to put together a national campaign. You know, and what I mean by that is there's not enough time to get everything in place with all the people you wanted. This is actually going to be very fascinating, Nick, because what's going to happen is that Biden's national campaign staff will now be merged with a select group of people that Harris trust and wants to be with. And I want to say this, Biden and his campaign reflected one another. Biden wasn't particularly interested in trying anything new, you know, he wanted to believe that giving a John Meacham written speech would win over the hearts and minds of people. Guess what? Not a lot of people care about John Meacham's speeches. You know, so we're the rhetoric about America. It's the one indispensable nation. They don't need that right now. They want answers. They want something forward giving. So what we're going to find out, and this is going to be like the real nuts and bolts in the weed stuff, is can Kamala Harris drive her own path when she's using Biden's campaign staff and structure. Do you know what I mean? Like, is she a strong enough leader or is she imaginative enough or are there people around her that can take the sort of remains of the Biden campaign and turn it into something new that feels fresh and it can possibly do something else. That is what a lot of the conversations are going to be dominated with over the next few weeks. Absolutely. I would hope that she brings in some guys, I mean, maybe some of the Obama people come in as well if they want to jump in there and help, you know, because of there's no time. I am thinking about this though is right at the machinations of this and how this ends up working because obviously Joe Biden has all of that. And, you know, there always have been contingencies in case something bad happened to a candidate couldn't finish the race, where, okay, he's now officially endorsing Kamala. I guess he's going to, that means he's telling his delegates when it's come time to announce your at the convention. My name, you're now, I would like you to say Kamala Harris's name, but do they have to do that. It could, you know, here's the thing, man, is it could, it could get wild, it could get woolly. But I do think that the maneuvering that we're going to see, not just like moving into the convention. I mean, I feel bad for some of these people who are still going to have to work over time, like nobody's business. The real maneuvering now is going to be who is the VP. That's where this happens. And it feels to me like that that picture is starting to take shape. There are a couple of front runners. There are a couple of dark horses, and it seriously feels as if the race for the new VP slot slot. And Nick, it's not just for a new VP. We're literally talking about shaping the future of the Democratic Party. It's who is going to take over, not just after Biden, after Pelosi, after Schumer, and a lot of this work. And this is actually crazy and very strange to think about, but it's true. I told you a month ago when the Biden debate disaster happened, that it turned into a big giant free for all for everyone trying to get the nomination if he dropped out, and also trying to get control of the Democratic Party. The VP pick here is going to go a long way, and not only like seeing if she can defeat Donald Trump, but also taking over the party apparatus, party apparatus, and it's ready to be taken over. So there are a few camps. Like I said, there are some front runners. There's a couple of dark horses. It's going to be endlessly fascinating to see how this plays out. Well, maybe the real treasure Jared was the friends we made along the way. I mean, listen, I've been aged the past month has been so exhausting and so tiring and just in general, but don't you feel that like we talked about on the last episode, like how angst written everything was. And it feels, it feels today, like there's at least a measure of catharsis, you know, there's like a feeling like, Oh my God, thank God it's just done. And now it's a lot of building. Now it's a lot of maneuvering. And I think doing that work is a hell of a lot better than sitting around and waiting for the next shoe to drop. For sure. I mean, any kind of anxiety we have now is a little bit more of an excitement because it's going to be better than it was, you know, combos only again will most likely be somewhere in the range of what what Biden was I would think. Oh, I just agree. I just agree with that. You think she's going to shoot up and have a commanding lead. I mean, if you look at. Oh, I think she's, I think she, and this is, I think this is the benefit of what's all happening. Um, I think first of all, man, we talk all the time about how the Republican Party is constantly like maneuvering and planning. They put on a really piss poor convention. Donald Trump didn't do himself any favors JD Vance was absolutely exposed that party came off as what they are, which is a crazy authoritarian cult. And now, like Biden or Biden. Oh my God, Harris is going to get a bump. There's going to be a bump over what Biden had certainly, she's probably going to start and hit the ground running with. I would, if I had to guess I'd say a two to three point lead over over Trump from the very start. I hear you. I wonder if it will end up because this is the horse race thing. They always try and make it that way. It seems like that way. You could have John of Kennedy running, you know, and wind up being close to Trump at the way this is going. Yeah, manipulate all these polls. So, fair enough. So I can see the bump happening in the same way you get a bump after like the, you know, the convention. The question is, can they, you know, continue to foam at that and increase that or keep it, you know, better than what it was. Yeah. So there's going to be, and what you just said is absolutely correct, but I want to broaden it out a bit and say this, there are three bumps that are coming. And if you work them correctly, they give you significant momentum and they shape the fall. You know what I mean? Like they really, really shape what this race looks like going into fall, which is going to be crucial, especially with a new nominee. So you get Harris becoming the de facto nominee of the Democratic Party. You have the selection of a vice presidential running mate, which, you know, if you do it right, can give you another bump. Then you get to the convention, you show a united Democratic Party with a vision for the future that reflects the future. Those are three bumps that you have to build together in order to build momentum going into the fall. And all that's, it's all set up right now. The dominoes are in place for that. The question is whether or not they can do it. Okay, fair enough. Now, if you look at the way the right is reacting, they were petrified about this because they clearly wanted to run against Biden. And they now don't have any of the, the grist of being able to say he's told or whatever. Now, when that comes up, it's only going to be about Trump and his inability to lead. So that's interesting. There's actually talk of saying that they want Biden to step down from the presidency, kind of like what I described earlier, which I think only this goes to make the keep the attention on Biden more right that's what they're trying to do in some weird, you know, whatever, psychological trick. You know what I mean? So I think you're going to end up seeing, you know, those kind of calls, and I have to imagine that Biden will simply ignore them. Yeah, I think there's no reason to even have a discussion about it. And I think the Republican Party probably knows deep, deep down, not only will he not listen to it, but it's completely useless. It's, it's something to say. Do you notice that they're not, they're not going after Harris immediately. They're still going after Joe Biden. Like this is, this is a different situation that's developing. We now need to talk about the vice presidential candidate, we brought it up for a second. Now, the one guy that popped up having gone on Bill Maher, I believe, was Pete Buttigieg. And I feel like he hadn't really been mentioned in that in that mix, even though he was a significant part of the race in 2020 anyway, and could very well be. I don't think they're going to do Harris Whitmer, right? I think Whitmer is a real contender. The top prospects right now, the lay of the land that I'm getting. And here, here's sort of what you're looking at Nick. So, I think the number one in the power ranking right now is Gretchen Whitmer. And I think the Democratic Party is interested in not only putting, you know, forward an all female ticket, but also Whitmer will win you Detroit. Whitmer will win you Michigan. Like, that's that's that you put that in your pocket. That's money in the bank. The other major contenders so far, and it can change because there's a couple of people in the second tier who could move up. Andy Beshear in Kentucky is a real, real contender. By the way, there, you have the youth of the Democratic Party, right? Like you really, really have a brand new ticket going forward. Not sure that they can win Kentucky, but I mean, they would make it competitive. The other two, Josh Shapiro has been swimming around in this thing for a while. I would say he is probably of the top tier. He is probably at the bottom of that tier, but he's effective. And I think I think he actually has vice president written all over him. Pete Buttigieg is also in that first tier. And I want to say, I have not been a fan of Pete Buttigieg. I have issues with a lot of what Buttigieg has done in his career, how he's handled. I mean, listen, the story writes itself, the way that he was quote unquote effective as transportation secretary, it was a debacle. That's a problem, but I think he is real contender as well. I think you could see a Harris Buttigieg ticket, but right now it does feel like Gretchen Whitmer has the lead in the clubhouse. You know, really? Okay, because listen, that would be amazing. And they're both terrific candidates. I just worry that having two women would be enough of an issue for people who are misogynistic and can do women as president or vice president. That they might end up panicking. I mean, that's why I was a little bit surprised. I felt like the panic and the Democratic Party ended up being let's pick the good looking white guy and that would have been. You know, by the way, you didn't mention Newsome at all. So, you know, I don't think. Well, Nick, you and I have talked about this before, not only are Harrison Newsome, both from California, even though national politics has sort of rendered that not as important. There are only a few candidates that actually change anything that way, like, not only is he from California, they don't like each other. They don't like each other at all. And I don't just mean that they like, you know, they just don't get along. I mean, that Harris, like, really, really does not like Gavin Newsome. And it's the type of dislike that I would not be shocked if it takes him off the whiteboard completely. Yeah. Okay. And I think the California thing is right, especially because the Rust Belt is so important. Tennessee has 11 electoral votes. Michigan has 15, which could have very well influenced that because it could very well be. You're going to be scrounging for five, six, 10 electoral college votes here and there. That's, you know, four extra is somewhat significant, I would imagine. Yeah. And it could. I mean, that's the other thing about it is sometimes these electoral things, they spread. I mean, famously, the Democratic winning formula for the longest time was you get a popular southern governor and they bring along the south, you know, possibly. But more could bring along Wisconsin could bring along Minnesota, you know, like that, that could be something that could take off. Bashir could make you competitive in Kentucky. He could make you competitive in Tennessee. I don't think Indiana's going that way. I don't think my homeland is going to trend in that direction, but there are options that that makes sense here. And people are going to get pumped for this. They're going to be very excited about the vice presidential sort of maneuvering and the pick. I think it's going to, I think it's going to play out and be very positive for the party. I hear you. I mean, it's interesting how the other thing that we didn't really bring up is the noticed all the conspiracy theories around the assassination attempt. And there, and, and you notice those in B, they're generally designed so that they can criticize Biden, right, and they can try and play Biden for it. And I'm wondering now how that changes in the sense that, like, now they have to deal with the whole other candidate. That's going to be a bit. Oh, Nick. First of all, the deep state is just, you can use it for whatever you want. Right. Biden was never actually in charge. The deep state was in charge on top of that. And maybe we'll talk about this more in the near future. I have a wild feeling. There's a, there's a story that'll, that'll happen here pretty soon where we can get into it. One of the main storylines well before Biden's debate, and I'm talking about going back a year and a half ago, that there was a major, major right wing and still is right wing conspiracy theory that the deep state was going to drop Joe Biden. And bring in another candidate. So it'll fit very, very neatly in the whole thing. They've got all that cognitive, cognitive dissonance figured out. So that won't move that conspiracy theory image. All right, great. Now the other question we have here everyone's mind would be the debates. There's one scheduled, there was in September. And I am now two things. Let's talk about this first. So the debate, does it happen? I think Trump isn't going to be able to resist, or is he going to be like, wait, I don't think I can handle this against it. I can't. If I had to put money on it right now, I would say the Trump doesn't debate. I would say that the second debate doesn't happen. We don't actually see Harris and Trump on the stage stage together. That's kind of what I think. And I wonder if he's going to try and relive the Hillary debates and think, Oh, I can do the same thing, which was such a disgusting display of things if you remember who he brought in. He doesn't have doesn't have any of that here. So, I don't know. I kind of feel like, yeah, they're going to try and they don't want to. They don't want somebody younger and somebody smarter and somebody, you know, better equipped to do this. I think that's, I think what's probably going to take place. If I had to guess, and I spend way too much time thinking about and researching Donald Trump and analyzing Donald Trump. I think what he's going to do for the rest of the campaign season is a lot like what he did with Barack Obama denying that he was a citizen. I could see him doing something like that with Harris, but also that she's like an invalid candidate. That she shouldn't even be in the race like I would, I could really see him treating her with just a complete lack of respect. Also, by the way, Nick, we are going to hear her called a D E I presidential nominee more times than you can even imagine is going to be so disgusting and ugly. Well, I do feel like that's not, that's not a good thing for them only because I have to imagine your typical swing voter isn't going to respond to that as much as they think it might. It might, you know, batten down the base. But that's, you know, discussing. Let me ask you this though. We were kind of trying to figure out why the hell Biden wanted wanted to have this debate so early. I think I had said this and I'm going to really double down on it now. I think that they knew. I think this was all this was the plan at that once they realized in January that you know this guy wasn't going to be able to do it they might as well have to debate early. Find this all thing out now and have time to get to where we are today. I know that's how you see it. I have a problem believing that because Biden is surrounded by has been surrounded by people who believe in him explicitly. I truly think it was a role of the dice, the way that it has worked. I don't know exactly like. I don't know exactly how this would have worked out had they had the debate later. I don't think. Like if they would have waited until after the convention, like that's such a weird counterfactual now. Do you know what I mean to even imagine now in the wake of this like unprecedented moment. It's really hard to imagine now if this would have taken place in September or October. Like that's a wild thing to think about honestly. You mean, it couldn't have happened then. Is that what you're saying? No, I'm saying that like if they wouldn't have done the early debate. If the early debate wouldn't have happened and they would have had the first debate between Biden and Trump in like September or October. I mean, good Lord. So that I mean, again, if I were part of that, I would have been like, oh boy, and by the way, I think it's going to ultimately come out that they were signs of this for a while, a while to be years. And I would not be surprised if two or somebody in their campus instrumental was looking at this and going, Hey, Joe, I got a great idea. Let's do the debate in June, you know, we'll surprise everybody, whatever, get them all excited about it. This was there. I we got to find out who was instrumental behind that decision because I know it might be a complete pontification and not real but it doesn't make much sense in any other way, especially here here we are. And by the way, I think it doesn't make sense. I think that's the whole thing. Is it doesn't make sense. That's the issue. Well, having in June doesn't make sense. But what what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you either. Is that what you're saying? Well, no, I think it could. Like, I mean, but that is, I think that's something. I think what's happening is that that's something that you would do if you were in the situation where the candidate that you worked for was diminished and something needed to happen. But I think that I think this was honestly just a gamble. And man, it's so, I can't say this enough. What a crazy ass time this is. You know what I mean? Like, what an absolutely wild set of circumstances we've got going here. Absolutely. And we shouldn't expect anything less having been thrown into this. And again, I don't even know if it changes if it's not Trump running if this if this was like John McCain, or, you know, Mitt Romney running and there wasn't the sense of democracy, you know, on the ballot as well. Right, then I bet you Biden kind of just sort of talks it up to a, you know, I was sick jet lag, and just keeps going on. Right. Isn't that sort of why we're here is because of the threat that Trump is. Yeah, I, man, I think Trump. You know, I've been, we haven't talked about it yet. And I assume we'll need to touch on this for Tuesday's episode. We'll be talking about this tomorrow. Probably the third story after Biden and Harris and moving forward. Like, he is such, first of all, total piece of shit and totally awful. But he is such a self destructive candidate Nick. And all he needed to do was go into that convention and have a quote unquote new tone. And he couldn't help himself. Do you know, I mean, like, he couldn't even, there were, there were large swaths of our media and large swaths of voters, who like were kind of really, really open to being sympathetic for him. I mean, he was fawned over by our media. You know, everyone, you know, everyone was just like, Oh my God, I can't believe this assassination attempt happened. Like, and he had to fuck it up. He just couldn't help it. And so yeah, I think we're looking at a situation where unless Harris. I mean, what, what even would Harris have to do at this point to at least not be neck and neck with him. She would have to be awful. You know what I mean, embarrassingly bad. There would have to be some sort of a scandal, but I think that would have already come out. I think we already would have seen a measure of it. Right now, unless it is an abysmal candidacy. I have a hard time imagining where this isn't the toss up that we kind of expected from this election. Well, well, strap yourself in, Jared, for the calls that she's not an American citizen or she's run. That's going to be that good times that they try to do originally in the. But that's how desperate it's going to be. And you're, I don't even know if it mattered that Trump, let's just say Trump did a good speech at the convention. I don't think it matters now anyway because he's going to have to deal with someone on a whole different playing field. And the oxygen's going to get sucked out of the room anyway. So whatever bumpy would have gotten from that would be gone, you know, by this afternoon. He had. Think about this. He had an opponent that over like nearly 80% of the party of his opponent wanted the opponent out. He, like, survived an assassination attempt. And what did he do, Nick? He picked one of the most vile pieces of shit in American politics, a guy that to look at his face makes your soul kernel like so much spoiled milk. Like an absolute extremist asshole. He has set up Trump and the Republican Party have set up like a really, really bad situation for themselves. By the way, just immediate reactions. I want to hear your thoughts on it because I've got mine. I think I think Kamala Harris has a real shot to win this thing. Do you? Yes, I do too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, listen, anybody, any normal Democratic candidate has a real shot to be a guy like Donald Trump, right? Right. Right. It was only because Joe Biden had his severe issues that was making this a lot closer than it should have been. Well, and also think about this because I know, and I understand where it comes from, but I also think it's shallow analysis for people to be like, well, look how a woman ran against Donald Trump last time, right? No, he was running against one of the most well known and widely disliked politicians of the modern era. You know, say, if you like Hillary Clinton, like, good for you, enjoy Hillary Clinton. People have despised Hillary Clinton for like, at that point, I mean, 20 years, you know what I mean, 25 years. And that was the situation. It, of course, sexism played a role in it, but also like, you know, Harris, Harris has a chance to completely redefine herself. Like she's got a lot of room to build something up. She's a known, but unknown quality here, quantity here, and it'll be very fascinating to see if the party understands that. So I don't even think those comparisons sort of work with each other. Although, yeah, there are a bunch of Americans, millions of Americans who would never vote for a woman because of inherent unconscious or conscious sexism, but Harris is a different case. And there are a lot of different things at play here. All right, well, I suspect that by tomorrow, when we record, there'll be plenty of other things to talk about and lots of other news. Probably the, she'll probably get the BP pick in this week at the latest, right? I don't know about that. I mean, I think it's going to take a lot of wrangling within the party to get that figured out. And, you know, I think, like you say, well, she makes the pick. Yeah, she makes the pick, but also she just got the nomination more or less because the president dropped out of the race. Like she still has to rely on so much of the apparatus to get things done. And I have to imagine the party will have a heavy hand in trying to pick this out. So I don't know if it's going to get done in the next week. I wouldn't be shocked if the announcement is made a week before the convention. That's where I would put the money. Or, or we could, like I said, in the last time we didn't, we did a podcast, you could see a worked, brokered convention, where it's a lot of different people fighting to name who the VP is. And I could see that happening, but I would say it's later on in the process than earlier. All right. I mean, yeah, I mean, again, the VP almost never actually decides much. Perhaps it could shore up here or there, a state or two or an area, generally, although in this one I know it's a little bit different. But I don't know, it sounds like you might have your money on the Whitmer at this point. You know, I wonder, I really, really wonder, you know, that that's in all the conversations I've had. She's the first name out of everyone. You know what I mean, it is, it is really who everybody pushes for. On top of that, like she has a record of very, very strong hands on administration. You know, she has been an effective executive in a big state. You know, and I think that goes a really long way. Like Buttigieg again, he has like the cabinet position, but being a cabinet level secretary is not the same thing. Right. It's just not. And so if I had, like, you know, if I was going to put my money on something, I would probably say a governor would be, would be my guess. I'm guessing a governor gets picked. But yeah, I think hearing how this thing plays out. You know, for political psychos, which you and I are and our listeners are as well. This is going to be, this is going to be cabinet. This is going to be really interesting. Right. I mean, especially like when you think about like Tim Kane sort of appeared, right. And that was interesting and not necessarily the kind of pick that you would have thought, maybe in that van, I got my head, my mind back in that era. Dude, I haven't thought about Tim Kane in so long. And what an abysmal VP. He was like, he was like, let's just pick someone. It's not going to overshadow and not just sort of be in the background, right? I think that's, I think that was part of the reason, but also it's still so crazy to think about that, Nick. Like, it was, it was a woman who had been a senator and who had been a secretary of state, an absolute known quality, you know, political, political, you know, just a person who had been involved in this stuff forever. And they decided to go with just a absolutely boring senator with very little to offer. It's, it's a little mind boggling now to look back on that and really put it into context. Yeah. And by the way, I'm looking at one of the comments, I don't know if you can see this on the screen, but who's left with Scott and Roger says, with Roe gone, I think two women is the right move. And I kind of like that that, well, even though, again, I'm so worried about the optics in this and the misogyny, whatever, about having two women, or even having a Jewish vice president, like it just seems to me like that's that, or gay vice president. You know, all these things would be terrific picks, all those people. But, you know, part of me gets worried, just like most of the parties, part of it rings their hands and makes panic decisions that don't end up doing. But I do think in that contact with Roe being such an important thing that perhaps that would be, that would be the reason why women would be the pick. So I've got an article coming out this week in splinter, and I say this with all of the love and affection that my heart can muster. The defining characteristic of the Democratic Party is handwriting. It is, it's being nervous about doing the wrong. It's neurosis. Yeah, I don't want to do the wrong thing. We don't want to upset the wrong people. We, we, you know, we got to really modulate ourselves. What happened today? And, and I can't stress this enough. It is literally, it's like finding a hundred dollar bill on the sidewalk. You know what I mean? Like, it is, it's free money. Put it in your pocket. And if you're not going to go big with this thing, if you're not going to go ambitious with this thing, I don't know what you're doing. Because at this point, you don't have anything to lose. Like, and, and, and I think that we'll, we'll talk about this. I have this article coming out. We, we can talk more about the entire thing. I can't wait to talk to you tomorrow. We got to talk about Joe Biden. Stepping down. We got to talk about what went into the decision, how we're going to look at this presidency, how impressed. And this is Kamala Harris as the nominee ideas, thoughts, all that. The Republican convention, the way it ended, I still can't believe that that thing took place. Anyway, Nick, so good hanging out with you. I'm exhausted. I've been exhausted for days. Yeah, I've been on the road dealing with all this stuff. I'm, I'm glad we could do this. And, yeah, let's, let's figure out where things are going. Awesome stuff. Well, thanks for jumping out here. Please drive safely from the road. And we'll be back in our studio, the Marta deal recordings that don't miss that. Thanks all for being here last second live via, you know, YouTube or Patreon, wherever you are. And we'll be back. So thanks, Jared. We'll talk to you tomorrow. All right, everybody. Talk soon. Talk soon. [Music]