>> Hey everybody, welcome to the Muckering Podcast from Jujia Sexton. I'm here Nick Houseman, Nick, I am beat down by the summer already, it's June, I'm struggling. I'm one of the most pro summer people there are and I'm feeling it. >> I mean, be careful what you wish for is what I'm saying to myself because I've been waiting for this. I got it now, and yeah, you move a little slower out there when it's that warm. >> It was feeling good in the AC, had the AC going, it was enjoying that conditioned air, I was like, 101, I've been in 101 before. And then I walked outside, ready to run and I was like, whoa, all the air. All the air out of the lungs expelled. >> That's the only thing in childhood memories, believe it or not are like coming home from summer camp, that hot bus, and then getting up and then walking into the front door and head having that cold air hit you, I swear to God, I'll remember that more than any most of the other childhood memories. >> That is a good point coming home from basketball camp or a baseball game, that's the good stuff. Well, speaking of the good stuff, everybody, welcome to the Muckering Podcast, we got business doing, Nick. This Thursday, the 27th at 9 p.m. Eastern on CNN, supposedly, supposedly it's happening. Nobody's withdrawn, people are going, they've got the TV trucks ready to go. Joe Biden and Donald Trump, apparently are going to have their first presidential debate. Jake Tapper and Dana Bash are going to host, God help us. We are going to go live immediately after this debate, if it happens. You need to go over to patreon.com/bookbreakpodcast in order to come, watch the show in totality, see what we have to say. I promise you it's going to be better than what you're going to see on the networks or anywhere else. We've been told this through multiple elections now, this is must, watch, must, listen coverage, patreon.com/bookbreakpodcast. Nick, it's the opening of the season. This has all been exhibition, we've been watching all this stuff come together, we're ready to go. >> Come sign up, please, I promise by that point, I will get Jared to pronounce Dana Bash's name properly. Certainly by that show, Dana, it is Dana, it is Dana Bash. I know it's weird, I get it, Rosanna, Rosanna, Dana, it's something I don't know why, but it's Dana Bash. >> Dana Bash. >> Yes, we don't want to insult the Bash family, Jeremy Bash, Dana Bash, we don't want to get in their way because they could be tough. >> I don't know what to do right now, okay, fine, we got to go, Nick, we got to talk about this debate, we got to set this thing up, give a little bit of a preview. This is the earliest presidential debate, I've looked and looked and looked, I haven't seen anything earlier, it's really bizarre that this was done. It's the Biden campaign, and the Trump campaign both put some, put a gambit out there, they're taking a gamble on this thing, a lot of politicians doing that these days. This is still a close, close election, both of these candidates have a lot of work in front of them. Nick, what are you looking at, let's go ahead and let's start with the sitting president, Joe Biden. What do you think he needs to do in this first debate, and what do you think he needs to avoid? >> I think he probably has to do something similar to what he had done in the previous debates against Trump was to be able to push back strongly, to be able to have that presence where he doesn't seem feeble, right? That's a really important thing I think people are looking for, which ends up being probably a low bar, right? I think he can hurdle that one, okay, he did it for the State of the Union, and if he doesn't, anything like that, they're going to turn around and say he was screaming in the yelling at it, which I thought was silly. Well, hold on, on that note, can you play this clip, we need to talk about this. This is from Representative Ronnie Jackson, who, by the way, his entire career has been plagued with accusations of improper conduct and heavy drinking, you name it. This was him going on Fox News, talking about the need to drug test Joe Biden prior to this. >> Well, improper conduct, that Jared, why are you, why are you, that's like pulling, pulling a person even the right term for that. >> We're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're skating league of lions here, alleged improper conduct. >> Rising above it all, okay, here we go, here's, here's Ronnie Jackson. >> And it's really embarrassing as a former White House physician to have to do something like this, but we don't have any choice based on what's going on. We're going to be demanding on behalf of many millions of concerned Americans right now that he's submit to a drug test before and after this debate, specifically looking for performance enhancing drugs. Because we see, we've seen recently that in a state of the union address that there was a Joe Biden that came out that was not similar at all to what we see on a day to day basis for the last three and a half years. And there's just really no way to explain that other than he was on something that they'd give any medications. I feel like this is probably what's going on over this week at Camp David, you know, he's going to be at Camp David for a full week before the debate. Part of that is probably experimenting with, you know, just getting the doses just right because, you know, they have to treat his cognition, they have to give him something to help him think straighter, they have to give him something to wake him up, you know, for his alertness. And then, you know, he's been agitated. We see that all the time and that's a common, that's a common symptom or sign of this cognitive disorder that he seems to be suffering from. So, Nick, one of my favorite things about Trump world and, and by the way, I'll lay out all of my cards on the table. There are plenty of open rumors in Washington, DC, even among Democratic party strategist consultants and members of the party that like to talk about rumors about whether or not Joe Biden is put on a certain regiment of drugs for debates and speeches. That is something that gets bandied about, that is not just within MAGA world, but I do love the whole MAGA thing that they have to do where they're like Joe Biden is so feeble he's incapable of doing anything. He's really scary though when he gets all amped up like I love that they have to do both of these things at the exact same time. Well, how about this, what are the odds that both candidates suffer from the same exact thing that Ronnie Jackson is talking about because I'm pretty sure that one of these candidates follows this regimented describing that he knows a lot about. He seems to have a lot of detail. Personally, I would welcome drug testing before the debate. I would love to see what these two guys, what these two fellows have going through their system because it would be an interesting readout. There is a test like that I think for government employees just to be to get hired I believe they still have that I think so so yeah why not make that part of it I guess but yeah the projection is thick I suppose is the word. And of all the people I mean he is sort of the poster child now for where we are, you know a guy who should be disgraced from his profession and from everything is now you know an elected politician and esteemed member of Congress. Spouting out about this stuff on the news it's really this is where we come to and it's going to get worse that's the problem. It is and by the way, anybody who welcomes Ronnie Jackson onto their airwaves like deserves to have their licenses taken away. So Nick I interrupted because you're talking about by needing to show himself to be capable. What else do you think he needs to do and what do you think he needs to avoid. So, you know, it would be nice if he could really sort of call Trump out on the issues that he's dealing with. The confellany stuff should be should have some weight to it right you should be able to get some of those moderates and those undecideds to kind of respond to the notion that he's already now been, you know, convicted of felonies and he's got more of these things weighing in on him. I think it might be it might be a chance for him to really make it clear that this is the, the, the fair arms of justice doing their thing and has nothing to do with, you know, him being involved. I suppose with that is if he, if he brings that up that opens the door now for Trump to then sort of just throw out every accusation baseless or not for that. So I don't know I think that's the big one. But you know you said this is a very unprecedented rights because it's so early, you know, and there's other things that aren't because they've already debated each other already ran against each other. I don't think we've ever had debate before where one of the moderators had to accuse one of the participants or had to compare them to Hitler in the past. Have you, have you ever seen anything like that before? You know I'm scanning my memory bangs it's coming up empty. Yeah, yeah so I mean that's what we're dealing with here is Jake's app or, you know, rightfully so had to compare the language of poisoning the blood that Trump clearly uses, and it's clearly a reference to Hitler. And that's got them up in arms up until now until then but he's still going to go through with it. Are you now with me on this that they're going to go through with it. No, no I'm not. I'm still, I'm still coin flip probably 51 49 percent of what I'm at. Yeah so just full disclosure and by the way, I think that more people who are in the media and commentary it and do these types of jobs. I think they should disclose this type of stuff. There are plenty of people that you see on cable news or you listen to their podcast that before a debate or before a speech sometimes people will reach out to them and ask them for some notes. I will go ahead and tell you what my notes that I have contributed what they said, and that is this. First of all, absolutely Joe Biden has to show a masterdom of facts figures. He needs to be very agile he needs to have those things at his fingertips on top of that like he needs to make this case. One, here is what I did in my administration in the first four years. Compare that to what Trump did in his four years talk about Trump as a convicted felon and as a person who is coming after democracy and then say what you're going to do in the next four years. Also, this is one of the things I've spent way too much time looking at old debates both the Trump Biden debates from 2020. The Trump Clinton debates of 2016. The Biden Paul Ryan debate of 2012, you know I've been going through all these things on top of that my God Nick I looked at so many primary debates both with Biden and Trump. Here's the thing. Trump does a lot better in a big debate when there's a ton of people on the stage. And one of the things that you'll notice is he picks on a couple of people, particularly either the people who are like running against him who are close, or the people who are on their way out. Right, like basically get off my car you're done and then the other person he brings them down. An example of this was when he would go after Rand Paul and make fun of his appearance or Marco Rubio and make fun of him, while also going after Ted Cruz and making sure that they weren't neck and neck. The good news there for Trump and you might remember this, he would go after somebody and then make good with another person on the stage. He would then sort of be like, I don't know about jam, but I like jam, you know, and he would do that. So those big debates help Trump. He sucks at one on one debates. He gets really, really flustered. Of course we all remember with Hillary Clinton. And he's like basically tried to physically intimidate her, and she would get under his skin and no puppet your puppet, all that stuff. Basically, you need to treat Trump like a real threat, while also treating him like the small pathetic man that he is. And as a result, you are just going to get the petulant fascist bully that he is, and there that's going to turn some people off it'll turn some people on. I think I think that is Biden's best sort of route toward victory in this thing. Yeah, I remember when he called him a clown abiding called him a clown in the last one, which was exhilarating to some degree right like Biden was asked. Biden beat the literal hell out of Trump in those debates. And that is the other thing about it Biden does better in one on one debates than he does in a crowd. And so this thing actually turns itself around so that that that's what I'm seeing from Biden or what I would like to see from Biden. For sure. And the weird thing though is because so early they carry over into the election itself doesn't necessarily have a, it might be tenuous. But you know, someone's going to happen between now and November, we're going to forget like what happened in the debates which is why it never made sense. You and certain neither. Why they decided to have these debates so early in the process and we have another one that's going to be early so it's almost like, you know, frickin Trump doesn't even have a vice presidential running Nate yet. So by the way, you I just want to go ahead and throw this out there real quick you are on the rumor mill. Who's going to be the VP you right now you think it's civic. And so I sent you a tweet where guys that he had the Trump, the Trump plane was in Ohio over the weekend unannounced unscheduled kind of scot secret whatever you live in Ohio, right? I would try to remember who else lives in Ohio but it can't be case sick so. Oh, yeah, yeah, unfortunately. So on that note, speaking of Trump not having a VP, I got to tell you, I think he's probably keeping the VP pick for after the debate. And if he tanks and it's not bad, he can go ahead and capture the media cycle. That's actually smart. What do you think Trump needs going into this debate and what do you think he needs to avoid. What are you looking for in terms of his performance. I mean, you have to remember like winning a debate, especially from that side is so relative, because they're going to say they want it and they're going to pretend this or whatever and he's going to say it and carry on and I really hope just even for his sake he doesn't do which I don't think he will because it's not a woman. What you mentioned as far as him like stalking the stage and the kind of coming up behind her like he isn't going to do that he's going to be stuck behind his podium. You know, Trump is going to, it would be nice if Trump displayed any sense of any policy any kind of clue about anything if I was not going to be nice. But what I expect from him is just ad hominem just attack attack makeup whatever he wants to make up there's no need for figures he won't have those. And he'll probably try and take, you know, something that that Biden does that's good that would be seen as a good trade and just pretend that it's bad. He'll rile up the base with all that kind of stuff he'll he'll drop all sorts of hatred about people coming into this country from the southern border. And I think that's I think you know there's no audience there's nobody to feed off of there which I think is important, and maybe in detrimental to Trump. So, I think he'll he'll probably try and you know sort of spew the hate and just continue to do what he were seeing as rallies to maintain that fever pitch. Listen, I am not, again, I'm not giving notes over to the Trump campaign. We are talking about this in terms of strategy that's one of the reasons we do analysis we talk about. We try and call it like it is like if Trump wanted to win this debate. It's not going to be one on policy. I can tell you that much this is not a guy who's going to come out with a lot of stats and figures and rationalizations which we'll get to in a little bit we have another thing to talk about with that. He had hominom attacks. Basically, he needs to go out and he needs to say, you know, he needs to assault Joe Biden continually is what he needs to do. And the problem that happens there Joe Biden gets under Trump's skin. He really do not like each other and there's something about Biden going after Trump that just gets under his skin and he goes into like this defensive mode and he gets very weird, as opposed to being offensive. If he gets on the offense and he dominates the entire thing by just being an incredible bully the entire time, that's a positive for him with his base and possibly even with some of the quote unquote swing voters. Nick, if he gets trapped and this is another part of the notes that I turned over. If he gets trapped into relitigating 2020 over and over, that's not good for him. And that looks bad and it keeps you from talking about anything in the future and actually going after your opponent. If you're just ranting and raving about wild conspiracy theories the only people that gets is your base. I'm going to be watching that I'm really going to see whether or not they can get this and obviously you can't train Trump. You can't get Trump on leash like it would have to be somehow or another sort of a coincidental sort of an instinctual thing and I don't see it happening. Totally. And I think he'll have to attack his age Biden's age, in his country since he's going to go after that which then opens him up for his own criticism as well for all these things I mean the gas he's making on his campaign trail are pretty severe and doesn't know a lot of times exactly what he's talking about he gets over so, you know, which is why these are hashtag great times right now for anybody who needs to deal with the vote so it's not ideal. That's what I would say. It's not an ideal situation but we're going to be watching that we hope you will join us as patreon.com/mongeringpodcast. To the news of the day Nick we're going to go down unfortunately to the state where so much is happening nowadays. On June 12, Ronnie Dion DeSantis vetoed every single art grant in the state of Florida, a total of $32 million in totally said it was quote in the best interest of the state. And he vetoed just an ungodly number of programs so that he could, you know, brag that he had gotten the state budget quote under control. This is like we knew that he was doing a lot of this stuff to try and become the Republican nominee. At this point it's just, you know, sweet sweet lust and hatred of everything. I was taken aback by this I know this isn't something that maybe surprises people but seeing it in black and white that a governor of a Republican state vetoed every single arts grant is pretty wild stuff. Sure, and you know I don't want to cast versus on other states in the union but Florida of all places does have a very vital arts community. And a lot of people rely on that a lot of people have built their lives around being able to attend these things so this is going to be another one of those where he says. He's got a gun he's fighting he's just squeezing the trigger looking for anything that's just throwing them in the chamber, and that will be maybe points that at progressives liberals. And that gun is going to be hitting him in the toe and every toe we've got this for this one. Well, so first of all I would be remiss if I didn't say it's actually criminal that Florida only had $32 million for art. It's actually really. Yeah, it's really nuts that they only had $32 million set aside for art in the first place. A society that was healthy and thoughtful would would absolutely support art. I think this is part of the larger issue and you know I rant, I rant on this show all the time about the wealthy and powerful how they pulled their money through think tanks and institutes which we'll get to in just a few minutes. They've gone after education and science and certainly art. Like I could sit here and I could talk about that ad nauseam. It's not just them. The way that art is treated in this country, and I'm not just talking about painting I'm talking about all different types of art including creativity, including innovation. All of those things have been so attacked and drained and de-emphasized in this country and not just by Republicans. One of the worst things that happened back during the Obama administration was all he talked about was stem this and stem that had and the humanities were dying on the on the vine. We have created a society where art is not appreciated. It's not valued. It's not funded. It's not supported. And on top of that. We look around we're like, oh, why are movies not it like new anymore. Why are there no books for us to read there obviously books for us to read but why is it that we find ourselves and an absolute dearth of culture. People believe a bunch of dumb shit. Why do they believe a bunch of dumb YouTube videos. You've undermined education. You've undermined science. You've undermined art. And what happens Nick you said, shoot themselves in the foot. That is the thing. This is a suicidal activity. I hate to put it that way. But the way that we've treated all this stuff as a culture, it has consequences. And like you can't just get rid of this stuff and expect to have a healthy, innovative like culture that moves towards the future, which is part of why we're here. You know, we're talking about, you know, billions of dollars of budgets here and then you realize they're going to cut like 31 million, which is like nothing and it doesn't affect the bottom line at all. I'm not a major is, you know, from college, I was a painter as drawer. I did all those things and I, you know, it's been under assault. You know, probably since Reagan, I think it came in power. I feel like in the 70s, we started to really recognize the beauty of how kids can learn and expand their horizons with through art to endeavors. And then Reagan comes in, they realize how important it is to control the kids minds, because all this represents to them is DEI, it represents to them equality of everybody in the 70s. They looked at that era and they said, we can't have this anymore. Because of rebellion and fighting back against authority and demanding better rights in a better country. You can't have that. You have to crush it. You know what the other thing they can't say they can't have from the 70s. We can't have a president just give up the White House like he did. Right. Yeah, absolutely. No, you can't. So that, you know, out of all of that, all the Nixon stuff, it's almost like, okay, you know, it's not a stain on our country. He didn't, you know, embarrass us all. He simply gave up too easily is what they really are going to say. And all of that response. By the way, Nixon probably been the first guy to fund, you know, the arts, any, I think he might have been. I don't even remember when it depends on how many gyms he had had that night. Yeah, very. Was he was he was he up ranting about the Jews in the academies. If he's doing that, he probably wasn't going to fund. Fair enough. If he was crying, then maybe you could get some. If Kissinger was holding him softly in front of a White House fire as, as he, you know, he just drank what probably 1314 G&T's, you know, and he had just an hour before had called for the nuclear bombing of Moscow. And the secretary. No, we're good on that, Mr. President. Yeah, right. So, but we'll cut some arts funding for you allow me to feel better right yeah so yeah anyway, so that's that's the problem. And then obviously fascist governments come into power and like as they begin their their march towards power, the attack on the arts is always one of the first things that we end up doing. Anything that creates like an individual sort of a mindset pushing back against authority and what did they do Nick and we'll talk a little bit about this in a few minutes. They want to take over the structures for themselves. There's a reason why authoritarianism is always accompanied with some sort of retroactive artistic medium. Something that looks back at like Greek statues, you know, the revival of ancient Rome, or Germanic ruins, you know, or rooms. I'm sorry, not ruins, ruins. And you know, all of that type of stuff like it is, it is, it's what happens when you stop the engine of creativity, which is what the Republican Party is doing. We've done it alone. We've done it as a society it's everything from free music and content which now by the way it's being taken advantage of by AI and creation and all of that. Like you end up sort of losing the soul of the society. And that's what's happened. That's where this is. Speaking of losing the soul of society. We got to look at the Democratic National Convention. There's been a couple of weird things that have been going on here. There's been a lot of flirtation with taking this thing virtual. We've been talking about Chicago police and Illinois police who are getting ready for it sounds like a hell of a time. They think this thing is going to be something and hopefully we'll be there. They have basically shut down a ton of accreditation for the media. And they have shifted that accreditation over to let me check my notes social media influencers. That's right. The kids who are popular with the kids are getting an invitation to the DNC. This is part of the next chapter of the Biden reelection campaign as well as the DNC strategy in order to bring on youth voters. And fortunately the Democratic Party right now is having a real hard time with youth voters for a variety of reasons. How do you feel about the coming social media, political activist revolution. How's that, how's that said with you. I've always happy to see when they would have influencers go to the White House do some funny content around it which gets the right completely riled up we've seen a few of those already in the White House. I like that it's all good. I think it's smart. I think that's what you need to do and provide some version of access. You know, having done this and been in this sphere for a long time. Like and covered like, you know, premieres and movies and stuff. You know, oftentimes it's like, hey, welcome, you're so good. We get both access and then like, yeah, you stand here and just wait there. And don't worry, you won't be able to see or hear anything, but maybe someone will walk by for a few seconds will get a shot of that and you can do so. It sounds like you're speaking from experience thick. It sounds like it did. I was like, listen, I can see the red carpet that was exciting, but like to get anywhere, you know, meaningful access was completely no. It was a premiere of Space Jam 2. Yeah, well, no, it was actually, well, one of them was a premiere of a Kyrie Irving's movie, Uncle, Uncle Drew, in New York when I went to cinematic masterpiece. You know, it was actually kind of entertaining believe it or not. There was some good stuff in there. They got you. They got you. They got you. They got you. They gave you the credentials and you're like, oh, it's pretty good. It's it's it's shooting ducks in a barrel because it's a basketball movie and whatever, but nonetheless. So that's interesting thing. I went to the process here. By the way, you and I are now in the system as social media influencers begging them for credential will find out. You know, we're going to find out what they say, but I think we're, are we too old. Is that the problem? Sorry. Hold on. I swear to God, if I get a lanyard for this convention, it's a social media influencer. I'm going to lose my ever loving mind. I, I, I, okay. Yeah, no, we're going to be very, how do you do fellow kids? If that's, yeah. Yeah. But by the way, if maybe, maybe the backlash against like what's going on in Israel and all those things that have gotten the younger people so that they don't even want to do it. And by the way, maybe they don't even know about it. Like you saw it on the hill.com like they're reading that website. So I have no idea if they even heard about this possibility of getting the access. Well, I heard it from a Democratic staffer who was very pissed off about this thing. This was a, by the way, I want to point out in the background of all this Nick. This is for people from TikTok and YouTube, a reminder that the Biden administration and the Democratic Party moved to get rid of TikTok. One of the means that they've been using for reelection is opening up a TikTok account. Are you kidding me? For real. So in the midst of all of this, one of the things I wanted to talk about, and yes, you're, you're exactly right. Like they have struggled because of the consequences of what's happened in Gaza. They've had, by the way, like they thought that they could get the, the youth vote through student loan reform, which by the way helps, but also like it hasn't totally worked. On top of that, like it's like in 2024, like this should just happen. Pot Pot's legal everywhere. And on top of that, it is a little bit like ages to be like, Oh, the kids will love us if we like reschedule pot. You know, you don't want kids care about climate change. The Biden administration's record on climate change is garbage. It's really, really, really bad. More oil than basically ever. Also, what we've talked about before, there's before, there's not a way in a lot in the way of like future plans. The problem here, Nick, is the Democratic Party told itself a story, which was the demographic generational shift was coming that young people were automatically going to support the Democratic Party instead of the Republican Party. And the Republican Party believe that for a long time too. They, they taught themselves the same fiction. That is changing now. And one of the things that no one wants to sit around with is that young black people, young Muslim people, young Hispanic people. A lot of them are going to the right. And here's the reason why, Nick, it's because they have at least started speaking to the dissatisfaction of younger people. Younger people feel screwed. They don't see a future that's there for them. They have a ton of influencers and politicians who say, Hey, things suck. Meanwhile, the Democratic Party is like, Hey, things aren't that bad. Let's figure it out. That has led to a lot of younger people becoming radicalized. And I don't know. I don't know. I don't think getting them to the DNC is going to fix it. I'm probably not. I hear you, but like I get it. Like if it was my job working in the White House to figure out outreach to younger voters, whatever. This is what you would have to do. This would be one of the chapel room. You got to get the chapel. You got to get the chapel room out there. What's the chapel room. Oh, I love it. I do. I knew that if I mentioned chapel room, that you weren't going to know chapel room. That makes me happy. That makes me happy. Yes. What is it? Is it to talk to the channel? What? Keep going. You want to take some more guesses. Can't even fathom what that would mean chapel room. What does it mean? What is it? You don't have another guess. I think. Listen, the rule three for comedy. Give me two more guesses. It's not a podcast. It's not a podcast. It is not. Give me one more for community purposes. And it is not. I mean, I guess I'll get away. It's not some pop band or something. That's, you know, it's a pop singer. Oh, huh. Pop singer. Not rock and roll pop. Pop. You kids and your highfalutin shoes and your fancy instruments and your synthesizers. Yeah, right. We don't want to hear any of that. I do think that there is an in road in this stuff that they haven't figured it out. And by the way, Nick, it shouldn't surprise everyone. You have the oldest president in history who's struggling to bring in young people. That makes sense. It happens. It happens. It happens. It does. It does. And it's tough. But I think that the, you know, again, it's not going to be the thing that swazes anyway, ultimately. Or is it just going to be the 60,000 people in Michigan, Pennsylvania and. I don't know Arizona, where that's going to be. That's what's so frustrating about all this. It's like, I don't even know if it matters if we look at the polls, national polls. I don't know if it matters at all. Yeah, it is going to be something to watch. I'll just say that. Nick, you sent this clip to me. And, you know, I watched it the first time. And I was like, Oh, this is interesting. I think we should talk about this too. And then I'll watch it again. And I was like, no, we need to break down this whole damn thing. This hardly ever happens that. And first of all, cable news is absolutely terrible and dreadful. This is so instructive. And there's so much corn on this cob. Here. Here we have Heritage Foundation, Kevin Roberts. And again, the Heritage Foundation is the main think tank and Institute behind Project 2025. They are doing the bidding of all of the wealthy right wing donors. He decided to go on MSNBC and have a conversation. You're going to hear Simone Sanders. You're going to hear Michael Steele. There is so much happening here to digest and get into. And I could not be happier with how perfectly this stuff is put together. We're going to divide this up into a question and answer and give and take. It'll be pretty obvious where this stuff is. Nick, roll that beautiful bean footage. President Trump is going to make decisions about policy in his administration if he wins. Project 2025 is something that's going to transcend the next four years the next 10 years. It really is for the first time in the history of the conservative movement. The apparatus for policy and personnel. That's the most important thing to remember. I have one follow up is just that you have said that this plan is about instituting institutionalizing Trumpism. So, because I also know you all, not just the president of the Heritage Foundation, you're also president of the Heritage Action, which is the political action committee. And so, is it tied to Trump or not. I said the context for that comment to the New York Times was that the work of the Heritage Foundation was to institutionalize Trumpism. Trumpism as a new version of conservatism, conservatism that recognizes that by every objective measure, the United States is weaker in 2024 than it was in 1984. We also happen to think that's reversible, by the way, we're ultimately optimists. And by institutionalizing Trumpism, what we're saying is that even though we are known as Ronald Reagan's think tank, I'm a son of the Reagan revolution, I'm very proud of that. That's 40 years ago, and we need to understand what time it is in America. And right now, Donald Trump, whether someone likes it or not, I happen to like it, is the standard bearer for conservatives. Michael, what? Okay, that is so much the institutionalization of Trumpism. What's that sound like to you? How's that feel to you? It just feels like more of the wishy, washy, ethical, they don't have any standards. They never really cared about any of the platforms they've been trying to create. They were just trying to find who can get the most votes, and we'll figure it out after that doesn't really matter who. So, that's what it seems like. It's just a very nebulous standard of conduct that they have, and it's gross. Yeah, that's exactly right. So first and foremost, we need to understand that the GOP and their associated groups never cared about any of this shit. They simply saw this as a project that had one step after another, right? It's like a corporation. I don't know. It's like a McDonald's executive getting upset because they changed the number of pickles they put on a big Mac. They don't care. They don't have an emotional ideological attachment to most of this stuff, right? They've went from libertarianism, which is what Reagan is represented, right? It was the idea of the government just needs to be shrunk down and do that and we don't need a big government. We don't need big budgets unless, of course, we're, you know, facilitating a Cold War. But Trumpism is just the next step. It's just the next iteration. It's the next product. It's the next means that they need to get to the next place. I mean, I think it's a lot of that this guy is being so open about this. And he's like, yeah, this isn't, you know, this isn't Reaganism anymore, Reagan, it's something different. Yeah, 40 years have passed a long time. Everybody has to evolve and everyone has to progress. So, like, as the left has progressed and try and increase the access to health care for women and try to allow more people have more rights. It's almost like the movie Memento, where you have two different plot lines that are going in different directions in time, you know, and they're going back, we're going forward. And at some point, they cross and then now we're getting farther and farther apart. That's, that couldn't be more accurate. I love the this idea. It's the next step in conservatism, which, by the way, if you, if you actually believe in conservatism, like if you, I don't know, this is one of the reasons why Bill Crystal is like a Democrat now. Like, if you believe in conservatism, you're a Democratic Party member now. Like, this is not conservatism whatsoever. How do you think it's going to go if Trump wins and we start having all like thousands of videos ice, you know, stormtroopers busting in the doors and grabbing people because I don't think we talked about it really, I don't want to take a quick detour, because they're, they're all for this. They're all for, you know, gosh. Yeah, deportation. That's not the word. Deporting people who are not here legally. But you have to imagine if you're going to try and deport 11 million 20, whatever the number is, there's going to be a percentage of people who are citizens who should not be deported who are going to get deported anywhere. Right. Yeah. So that's going to be so bad for them and we're going to end up seeing these kind of like, you know, not to ask, you know, images going on, that's going to kill them, I would hope, but like, oh no, it's, it's night of broken glass night of long knife shit. Yeah, like if they actually were to, and by the way, he's going to talk about this mass deportation thing in a little bit and get into it there, but like that, that idea itself. That's the whole point is the right wing's not actually conservative. The right wing is actually radical at a level that would shock most people. Like, they're, they're fine with that. They're fine with scenes of like children being like ripped out of families arms and like people being Russian and gifts. They're fine with that. But yeah, let's, let's continue to see this whole project roll on. Yeah, yeah, I don't think it's time for Trump is in that regard because one of the things that as, as a lifelong follower and participant in heritage haven't spoken at various times there in the roles that I played in the party. I see this as a dramatic shift away from those Reagan next principles when you have someone like Trump, who has advocated some of the things he has. But before we get to that, I want to get to the number of this because you can't really do anything until you remove what has been identified as the problem and that is 50,000 federal employees. It actually was quoted note noted, quote, the massive head hunting quest aims to recruit 20,000 people to serve in the next administration as a down payment on 4000 presidential appointments plus potential replacements for as many as 50,000 federal workers who are policy adjacent as Trumpers put it policy adjacent to what I mean you're talking about people who've been in federal government my dad it was a federal government employee so I would be really appalled thinking that he could be on someone's chopping block because they think he is part of some deep state effort how talk to us about what that looks like if if heritage is calling for removing 50,000 federal employees who are you replacing them with the number and where do they come from I mean even if even if it's not 50,000 if it's 10,000 if it's 2000 where they coming from and who are you replacing those because I suspect a lot of those people you're talking about have been in the federal service for a long time and not just Republican administrations but also Democratic administrations et cetera. They have, and 95% of them who give political contributions give them to the Democratic Party that's but that's what they reject that Michael that somehow you're going to fire someone because they wrote a check to a Democratic candidate no we're going to we're going to fire someone and the number needs to be more than 50,000 considering that there are more than 2 million federal employees because over the last century, the radical left has seen the administrative state as the fourth branch of government. They're unelected bureaucrats nothing against your dad obviously a human being you know that about me in heritage, but ultimately we have to devolve power from the Imperial City of Washington to imagine that because he wrote a check to a Democratic candidate without any appreciation or understanding where his political allegiance. And so we were formed agencies that take it right away from their job. What does that matter. They're doing their job about a mission that's misaligned for example the US Department of Education. Thankfully, President Trump deserves credit for saying that he wants to end the Department of Education. That means that employees in that agency even if they've been serving that mission with great competence will have to go look for another job. And then that Michael is that we actually have a delivery mechanism for education in this country that reflects the 21st century. So at heritage we see this a very different way you want to look at it from the lens of unelected bureaucrats. Most of whom, not your dad I guess, who wants to say that they are more important than the everyday American. We want to look at it from the standpoint of the everyday American and say, it's time that they are put in the driver's seat rather than unelected bureaucrats. Okay, there's so much happening in this I want to talk about Michael steel what happened with him. Before we do Nick. Did your ears perk perk up there. Get rid of the Department of Education. We already have a cutting edge technology that can bring you education. They're talking about rolling out a corporate based Internet learning substitute for public school education, which what this guy is talking about is complete corporate dominance and the end of public education as we know it. So I wrote that down you wrote he had delivery mechanism for education and I'm like what it didn't really expound on that and again, if you are ever an interviewer or a journalist in the situations, you know, so a good rule to follow would be that you don't want to speak for more a minute straight, because you're not there to be talking you're there to have your guest talk and you can interrupt and quickly get whatever. So they both do this in a way that it's really frustrating. It took Michael steel like a minute and have two minutes to get out whatever and he was answering the question for him in a way right. And then, and then, you know, you never want to say, talk to me or talk about this that's not a great phrase to use. Ask the question get specific and make them answer. So this whole thing is already starting to evolve and then you can see the heritage guys jutting his jaw. He has a little bit of a hostility to him about that when the subject comes up it's, it's, it's getting awful and it gets worse. This is, and one of the things that I wanted to talk about is this is not how you do this. This is a terrible interview for a variety of reasons. And one of the things that we see here. Michael steel made this question about himself and his family. And I want to point out one of the things that happens here Michael steel is the former head of the RNC he was a puppet of the party. The power he basically was like the, the guy in Indiana Jones who gets lost in his own museum. Right. He had no idea what he was doing there. Listen to him Nick, he truly honestly believed in the project of the Republican Party and conservatism. He wasn't real. He wasn't part of something that was real he is now on live TV trying to work his mind through it he's like I went to the Heritage Foundation I gave speeches for you. You gave me money. Why are you doing this thing. Dude, you are a political analyst and commentator. You don't understand what's happening here. And why does he not understand it Nick. He doesn't understand it because he had a personal role in it to keep him from understanding what was actually happening. On top of that he mentions that his dad was, you know, in the federal government. The administrative state is real. The quote unquote deep state is real. It's not an evil cabal being used but the administrative state is an anti democratic body that was created for anti democratic purposes. You'll notice something that the Republicans always say they want to destroy the deep state. Are you hearing anything about destroying the deep state. No, nothing. What are you hearing. I'm I'm hearing indoctrination like how are they going to take over that part of the one to take over the deep state. Right. The whole point. They understand that the administrative state is very powerful and it's anti democratic and it always has been which is something we need to reform. What they're going to do is take out the people who are there who are actual faithful stewards of the federal government and replace them with drones and cronies and criminals. That's it. Yeah, like the weather office who had had that map that Trump had to draw. And then they embarrass Trump because they asked him about it and they're like yeah that doesn't what he added was nothing that. But the weather office, the weather office is more than Trump adding on a hurricane thing. It's also understanding climate change. It's understanding that something is happening. You can, if you get rid of that. And you take over the you get rid of the Department of Education, you take over public schools. All of a sudden, we're not talking about climate change. It's not understood. It's just something that's over here that doesn't get talked about. It's an urban myth almost. Right. So it's a destruction of the protection of Americans in their lives, in all in the name of the dollar. You know, I mentioned, I watched three days of the condor. Maybe I said that last week, I can't remember. And, you know, at the very end, Cliff Robertson has an amazing line where he goes, just picture what's going to happen 10 years from now. 20 years now when we don't have free access to oil. Do you really think the American people are going to just say that's okay, or are they going to expect that their lights are going to turn on when they want to turn on. Are we going to ask people for that? No, we're going to have to seize it, seize the oil, seize the coal, whatever we need, any resources across the world, we're going to have to take it. And I feel like this is the same mindset here, whereas like we don't give a shit about anybody, we're simply going to be here to get like these white rich people what they want when they want it. That's exactly right. So keep going. Let's go. They aren't going to be in the driver's seat because they aren't going to be doing the jobs. You're the folks you are identifying who are a chump aligned are the ones who are going to be coming. You are, you are positing that those people are incompetent. And I can tell you from looking at the resumes as much as you're thinking I'm a positing these people are incompetent, you're positing that they're somehow executing a serious agenda, some of them are. So, what is the protection? If I could interject because I did actually work for the federal government as did the chairman. And I worked with a number of those civil, we call them civil servants in the United States government, people who are not political appointees, and they have the institution that way. Nick we pause. Yeah, okay. Dude, I just have one thing to say before we move forward, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, just Karl and globe trotters, just, just, they are just absolutely giving that look at the okay if you're not watching this on YouTube, you can't see the clip. He is so happy with what's going on right now. They have led him into every phrase and catchphrase and tested idea and rhetoric that he could ever ask for. And what are they doing Nick, they are both arguing this means something to me. This is my experience with it. You're a bad man who's trying to take away what was important to me. This just absolutely throws like gas on a fire like it is it's Harlem globe trotters basketball is what this is. I mean, and I think if you, you know, it's the Reagan's nine words about, you know, I'm here to help from the government. You know, and he's echoing that because of course everyone feels like yes the government is complete waste of time and they're incompetent yet, but like, you know, when you step back it's almost like when you criticize the referees in the basketball game. They'll miss a call here or there, but like the best the best get 90 plus percent of their calls right. And so, you know, for this government to lurch along and actually function day to day. So many things are going right and believe it or not, these non political appointees are doing their jobs have nothing to do with any sort of policy or whatever who they voted for who they paid for. And, you know, it really is incredible when we don't tell those positions how, how many people actually suffer and probably die because the Republicans don't want to, you know, hire the proper people and and, and, you know, qualified people. So that is exactly what needs to happen here as opposed to I worked for the government he works for the government it's good. Like, things aren't working well. So if you're going to talk to an asshole like this, and this asshole says this is the problem and you say no it's not, you have to tell people what the problem is right. The problem okay we do need administrative reform in this country. You're all I'm sorry but to run the world's largest superpower you have to have an administrative state. You have to make sure that they have the tools and funding that they need and the priorities are there. What's the problem that are representatives who decide how much money they have and how these things work what direction they suck. And they've been corrupted. So if you're just going to say the government's good don't go after the government you're just allowing this guy. It's like when you like when you're there and you're watching the Washington Generals are you like are you going to play defense and the Harlem Globetrotter bounces it off the backboard and does like a 360, you're like, you could have stopped that. Like this, this is, this is a it's like watching a car wreck okay go on. I have a question along those lines about one of the policy priorities that you all have identified in project 2025. I actually Dr Roberts have a question about this upcoming election is your organization going to accept the results of the 2024 presidential election regardless of the outcome. Yes, there is a massive fraud like there was in 2020. What does that mean. There is a massive law. Do you believe that there was not massive. There was a database that has documented that. By the way, the Heritage Foundation has been concerned about election integrity for decades, not just about 2020 we've been documenting this problem for a very long time. One of the, I believe according to the Heritage Foundation sir, there, by your account, Heritage Foundation has done an investigation. And according to your count, there have been 1513 proven instances of voter fraud across the United States since 1982. The very hard to document. And the Democrat party is very good at fraud. The key thing here, which I think we would both agree on, is that we aspire the Heritage Foundation to seeing a poll after this election where every American believes their vote was counted. It seems deeply about someone on the political left with whom I disagree, saying that they have confidence in the outcome of the election it seems rather than turn this into a partisan conversation which you do a good job of it in this NBC. We might say we aspire to something more noble, which is that every American believes their vote. I mean, I don't think it's partisan to ask if you will accept the results of the election at least yeah I don't know if can hear at least you now. All right, you know I've been pretty critical of is MSNBC's production values for a long time. Whatnot, you know he's gotten earpiece just really quick aside, the idea that somebody remotely will be talking and the other two, the hope in here, they just have a, there's a sound board, and they have the one dial all the way down like they didn't put it up so you can hear it like the idea that a guest can't hear a question. It is, it's wild and it happens the entire segment here he had to repeat it another time so get out of the way, but be, you know, there's a way to push back on this kind of stuff right and there's a way to kind of talk him down before yeah, it's not I just want to say real fast like this isn't how you do it like you can't like, like you said a while ago with how long Michael Steele was talking. Do you know what doesn't work against the right wing reading their own words against them, trying to catch him in blah blah blah like you allowed this guy to say yeah that's a lot of voter fraud and there's even more than that. And by the way, I'm being bipartisan, you're just letting this guy just he's playing ball by himself. And like it just they didn't they shouldn't have invited this guy on, first of all, second of all, they thought they were going to get them. They thought that he was going to walk out blue bruised and bloody and instead they just introduced a bunch of their viewers to the Heritage Foundation and gave this guy like something to show his people to get funding. That's it. Meanwhile, the only guy that would have been perfect to interview this guy they got rid of not long ago and that is on. On would have taken him into a steel cage and had him like crying on the mat because these people don't know how to do this. Like that's not what MSNBC's interested in which is one of the reasons they moved away from him besides other reasons we don't have time to get into, but like it just that this was not prepared and they keep doing the same thing they keep hitting their heads against the same question. I can't hear I do have another question I'm specifically interested as it relates, Dr Roberts to the deportation of immigrants in this country just understanding sort of how it is going to work we talk about folks on the interior how you see a future administration on the national guard ice police forces to deport something like 11 million people. Could you hear. So she is asking about immigration and how you see immigration how in this plan how you talk about using like the national guard to deport individuals and what is the I am adequately-- - Yeah, people on the interior, specifically. - People on the interior, specifically. Not people on the border, people within this country. - Well, first of all, we need to close the border. And secondly, we need to have the biggest, mass deportation system ever in the history of America because it is unjust and illegal and evil that more than 10 million illegal aliens have come to this country. It's imperative that we send those people back, invite them back to come through the legal system. We love immigrants at Heritage, but we also love the rule of law. So how do you plan to carry that out? Are you talking about going door to door? 'Cause that's what, I mean, I could read from the plan, but I think-- - The first thing is that there's gonna be a lot of self-deportation. The interesting thing, as you nerd out know, is that simply talking about this and beginning to implement a plan and President Trump deserves a lot of credit for talking about this causes people to say, "I don't wanna run the risk of being arrested "for doing something illegal." But secondly, there are great plans using the Department of Homeland Security to return to these-- - I'm sorry. Self-deportation, Jerry. - Self-deportation, baby. - They're going to just turn themselves in. - You got me. You got me. I was playing hide and go seek like a child. We're done. We're done here. - I spent three months walking across three different countries because it was so bad where I had to come from. I had no other choice. And I'm just gonna be like, "Egh, you know what? "It's kinda things." - No, no, thanks. - I'm gonna go back. This is, this is, I mean, do we have to keep, I guess we'll keep building. - I just wanna say, I just wanna say, why does he say that Trump has a great system of self-deportation? Because Trump and Stephen Miller cooked up a plan to make life absolutely hellish for these people in order to torture them. Which, by the way, Nick, one thing that you'll notice in this interview, and there's even more of it to come, they keep expecting this guy, who is the president of the most well-funded, right-wing think tank and institute in the world. One of the most effective political bodies. They keep expecting him to screw up and say, "Oh, we're gonna kill a ton of people, "and, man, we're gonna get excited about it. "We're gonna love watching it." Do you, are you going to accept the election results? Oh, no, no chance. No way we're gonna do that. He's polished. He knows what he's doing. This isn't going to help your cause, or do what you think is going to happen. You need to say, "Oh, how do you feel about children being, "like, you know, ripped out of their parents' arms?" Like, you have to do this. He's not going to do it for you. You're just giving him millions of dollars of exposure. That's all. - These people back to south of the border. The great thing is, even a majority of people on the political left agree with this, because they see the damage that this has done. - Just before we go. - I think we wanna take a couple more minutes, and finally we'll be talking about the wrap, but we wanna take a few more minutes. - I'll stay as long as you know. - Of course you are, you're winning! - What do these people do? What are they doing now? - Which people? - The vote, the 11 million, 20 million, whatever you wanna do for it. - A lot of them are committing crimes like murdering the 12-year-old girl in Houston. In fact, that's one out of 11 million. What does the remaining time of the segment? And I can give you a lot of examples. - In Texas, undocumented immigrants were 37.1% less likely to be convicted of a crime. Undocumented immigrants, according to a survey, University of California Riverside said it, but if you said that's likely to be in prison as a 21, I'm just giving the numbers. - Real fast, and this is just something that I have to work with constantly. Democrats and liberals want to read statistics all the time. They wanna give you the real empirical evidence behind this stuff. You'll notice what that guy said. Tell their families, tell their families. Do you know what the Republican party is great at? Creating an emotional response. People are killing people and they're gonna kill your family. Well, the statistics say here that that is statistically unlikely. They're going to murder you. It is about a state of mind. And when you are in a state of activated trauma and fear, those statistics don't matter one shit. And this is always what ends up happening. And this is, I'm going to take this. I'm going to take this video. I'm going to clip this part of it and I'm going to show it to people at organizing events and strategic events because they need to understand how absolutely ineffective this is. It's incredibly bad. - Especially 'cause you can respond with like a lot of instances of people who came here and have thrived and have been really amazing members of the community. - Doesn't do any of that. - I thought them. Let's talk about them and what they do. And 'cause even if we're willing to acknowledge, oh, I'm not against immigration. I'm not against immigrants coming. 'Cause of course, the more people he can get to pay a lot less money to do jobs. And the Americans I want to do is going to help the rich white people. But that's what they have to be able to turn it in on. 'Cause you're absolutely right. The numbers are compelling in a very unemotional way in a rational way, but that's not going to speak to anybody that's listening to this. And it's galling. It really is galling if this has happened. And they kind of, I want to know, when do you, was this over the weekend? Is this when I sent it to you? Was this like a, was this a show? It was buried over on the weekend. - Yeah. - I gotta open it out. So, you know, this is not prime time kind of, you know. - But those are stars. Simone Sanders and Michael Steele are featured player at MSNBC and they have the head of the Heritage Foundation on. - It is so bad. So bad. - I don't even know if we have to finish this a little bit. - No, we don't. I just want to say, like, if you go and watch this thing, one of the most like awful things I've heard in a long time, he is pushed, of course. And Simone Sanders thinks that she's got him, right? She's going to say, do you think that abortion is a woman's right? Nick, he proposes getting rid of the Department of Health and Human Services and replacing it with the Department of Life. And by the way, that is so, that is where the Heritage Foundation shines. Do you know how many millions upon millions of dollars were spent coming up with that? And it's brilliant, it's brilliant in the same way that pro-life and that's their slogan. It puts everything, how could you be opposed to the Department of Life? Like, why don't you want people to have good lives? And it is so Machiavellian and brilliant and the wealthy get what they paid for. These people are incredibly talented and they make life hell for people who want to fight against this thing and make other people's lives better. - Yeah, and they allowed him to have a platform to say that, you know, days after birth, there are abortions being performed after, I mean, all of that nonsense. And I've seen that in the past as somebody who, you know, in my family who I would have thought was, you know, somewhat rational on the right, you know, and who was probably always pro-choice becomes pro-life and it becomes pro-life primarily because of late-term abortions of which those don't even happen hardly at all. And it's not really the issue, but they've been scared into doing that and they've been scared all along the line here. So, and then platforms by even places like MSNBC. It's truly remarkable. - You couldn't be more right, that lie is put out there. It's not really pushed back against. Also, Nick, you have the head of the Heritage Foundation, the most powerful, well-funded right-wing think-tank institute. Why don't you ask him on the air who funds them? Ask him where their money comes from. Ask him what the agenda behind all this is. You don't do it because all you're talking about is the frontward-facing thing. Trump, the Republican Party, legislation, you're never getting into what's actually going on because they on MSNBC are part of the same corporate mindset. They have no desire to talk about that stuff. They have no desire to talk about where any of this comes from. And as a result, all you're able to do is fight on their territory. He ran circles around them. It's incredible that this happened. All right, everybody. Again, we're gonna come back on Thursday. Come hell or high water. If there's a debate, if there's not, we're still gonna be recording, but hopefully there's gonna be the first presidential debate. We will go live immediately following that. Again, it starts at 9 p.m. Eastern on CNN. When it ends, we'll go live a few minutes after that. Exclusive analysis, post-debate coverage. We'll be taping the weekender. All you gotta do is go over to patreon.com/muckraypodcasts for the show, keep us editorally independent, keep us growing. We appreciate everybody who supports the show. It is absolutely essential. In the meantime, you can find Nick, can you hear me? You can find me, Jay West-Axton. Be safe, everyone. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC]
