Under The Lid - Inside Pro Cricket Podcast
Treading Water - Under The Lid With Melie Kerr
Join Jack Brooks and Katherine Sciver-Brunt for Under The Lid - Inside Pro Cricket Podcast - with special guest, New Zealand star Melie Kerr.
Kerr took time out from New Zealand women's T20 series with England to talk mental health, an incredible sporting family and her inspiring series 'Treading Water.
Find her series at: https://outoftherough.nz/
Tell us what you think using the #UnderTheLid hashtag on socials or email hello@underthelid.co.uk
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
- Duration:
- 1h 2m
- Broadcast on:
- 19 Jul 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
(upbeat music) - Heaped it 17. - I thought I should tell you what to do, Brantley. - I'll be having to listen to her all afternoon. - Getting them Brant bowling in, not the silver Brant bowling in. So I got to push one out first. - You get a message from your dad after a game, you're like, shut up, you know, nothing. (upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to Under the Lid, the pro cricket show with me, Jack Brooks. - And me, Catherine Siva Brant. And as always, this podcast has brought to you in partnership with the PCA and the cricketer. Brantley, how are you? - I'm first thing. - Yeah, how are you? - Look at your hair. - I've had a haircut. - Have you had a haircut? - I have, yeah. For those who are tuning in on YouTube. - It's been a while. - Yeah, well, I was long overdue. My hairdresser did almost like, not really who I was when I walked in. - Well, that's what happens when you're a fresh dad and you got a fresh one. - Yeah, there's a few. - Things just self-care out the window. - And my hairdresser. - If anybody's tuned in today. - I look about 47 today. - Oh, you look great. Must be all that time on the TV. - It's all, I know what I could do if a five o'clock shadow canals when all your skin looks great. But that's not to happen. So anyway, what did you think to the test match? - Well, I was gonna say, there's only really two main talking points probably. And one of them is, it's all about Jimmy and Lord, isn't it? And you were lucky enough to be there. I couldn't get there. I was really hoping to get there on the Friday, but I just had too much on. But I really enjoyed watching and listening from a fire on TV, actually with all the montages and all the lovely messages and everything all about him. But he bowled beautifully as well, didn't he? - Yeah, he actually did bowl some seeds. It was actually really unlucky, wasn't it? To not get a few more. But I am happy that he didn't just, at one point, I was like, after day one, I was thinking, 'cause he really just gonna get one on to do. - He didn't get to slice a bowl either. - I know, Gus was greedy as was, and it felt like that was how it was supposed to go. It was a very dulled down test anyway, wasn't it? Like, it's not an ashes or a world cup or anything lies. It's very dulled down West Indian team at the minute. So they need to crack on and get a little bit better. But in terms of the day for Jimmy, it was great, wasn't it? - Well, there was kids ringing the bell. - How cool was that? - He was gonna cry like 15 times during the game, I think, in and around it. - Yeah. - He did well. - For the old boy, he dropped a catch off his own bowl in which would have been golden, but it's great that he's leaving, still very good. I think it's great for us as supporters and fans and everyone could tell he's still pretty much at the top of his game, rather than remembering a great who was on the way down and like, well, he's not as good as he used to be, blah, blah, blah, but still, he's still got the-- - It's good to not like be people saying, 'Oh, you should be retiring.' It's great that people are like, 'Oh, you can still play.' So, I think there's never a great time and he'll always think he's a couple of games short, but when is the best time? There is, he didn't exist. - He could have gone forever as well. He had no interest in probably the turret for a long time. - Whatever. - He didn't appear to get any worse over the last few years, so that was great. - Yeah, so I enjoy hospitality. I think I get to tuck into all the shampers 'cause they do like to, you can get halfway down your glass and they just keep going all day. And it's what, 11 till 6.30 is dangerous, but now I was working. My first time in hospitality, quite enjoyed it, really easy day. - Nice. - Pretty much just get to watch the test match all day, but I like it now and then, probably not my full-time gig, but yeah, it was good. - Yeah, it's a nice experience, isn't it? - Yeah, straight from that to the oval, to open a gate. - I was gonna say, the next-- - For a woman. - Your lovely wife, the planet's best women's cricketer, has now got some iron named after her, isn't she? - She has. And do you know what the best thing about it is? Can you guess? - What, your name is in it? - There you go. (laughing) I've got myself down south and I'm on a posh gate. - You're at the oval. I want the (beep) the oval. Don't even-- - That's fantastic. - You know, she's gonna want me to reciprocate head in the, you know, hint, hint, head in the-- - Yeah, you need to get something pedingly, don't you? - We need a Catherine Brun, and don't we? I mean, let's be real. Somebody needs to be steven in from a KSB end. - It's got to be something that they can name you after. Remember, you can send in any feedback or questions by using the hashtag under the lid, or email us at hello@underthelid.co.uk. We love hearing anything, feedback, abuse, a bit of fun, a few japes, anything about us or any guests, or just anything in general. - Moving on to, I guess this week, a bit of a current legend on the international scene, and she's one of her superstars from New Zealand. You can tell us a little bit more about her, Catherine. - Yeah, she's, you just said the word legend there, and she is, and will certainly will be, by the time she's done. But she's only still very young, which makes me very jealous, 'cause she's got lots of cricket to go, even though she's already played lots and very experienced. Kiwi, one of my favorite teams and countries on earth, so it's easy to like her. She's a good mate, she's had a stint at the Mumbai Indians, and she's over in England, currently playing in this series, that England are unfortunately winning every game in, but I'm sure she'll give us the background on why that might be happening. And so we've got our special guest is Amelia Kerr. - Let's get under the lid. (upbeat music) - Welcome Amelia Kerr. - Thanks for having me, Jack, Catherine. - Great to meet you. - Great and true, Catherine. - Was it? I could have gone on, you know. There's a lot to say about you. - Yeah, a lot of good things. - She's a multi-talented girl, which I'm sure we'll find out. So, when you smashed onto the scene, which feels about 20 years ago now, 'cause you are what, 23, 4? - Yeah, 23. - 23, yeah. (beep) - Oh, that's not funny, yeah. - I know, isn't that sickening, Jack? - A couple of 40-year-old broken cricketers here, Amelia. - And I think you made your debut at 16. Correct me if I'm wrong. - Yeah. - Way back eight years ago. So, like I said, it's properly massively experienced and still got a long way to go if you want it. And you were dubbed as like the future of New Zealand cricket, and that couldn't be any more true. You are. You're one of my favorite cricketers meals, I have to say. How did you cope? I know we've had a couple of cricketers, like Sarah Taylor, Holly Colvin, Anya, jumped onto the scene at 16. How did you cope with just, here I am, here's International Cricket. I thought I was just not mucking about, but it's real now. How did you cope with that? - Yeah, there's always a goal of mine to play for the white firms from a young age, like 19 years old. And I think back then, eight years ago, it wasn't professional either, in New Zealand, it wasn't. And so my debut, it was at Lincoln on live stream against Pakistan. And I've always been quite a chilled out character. So, I didn't really think too much of it. And it was just, I was almost shocked to be named in the team that young. And I was just excited, it was the game I loved. And for me, nothing really changed. And I think that could also be, 'cause of your age, you're a bit naive, but it was just, yeah, it was the game I loved and probably the most surreal moment where it felt like this is, I guess getting more professional and Vega was that 2017 World Cup in England, which I never really thought I was gonna make the year before that. And then, yeah, ended up playing every game at that World Cup. That's 17, it's mental. I forget how young you were during that World Cup. It was so big. It was just like, like you said, going from Lincoln. Lincoln uni for anyone that doesn't know is just like a modest uni ground. The one much like here at Loughborough. And so, you wouldn't like, maybe two people might turn up on the banking and watch you back then. So, to go from that to 25, 30,000 at Lord's, 2017's. Epic, just in a year of your first year from 16 to 17 must have been, you were thinking, I like this, I like a bit of this, 'cause I know you love playing for the ferns, don't you? - Yeah, absolutely love the white fans. I think it's, and it's because of the people. I mean, representing your country is a lot of kids, I guess childhood dreams. And then the people I've been able to play with kind of like role models who I looked up to and experiencing that, learning of the greats and creating some of my best mates in life has been pretty special. And yeah, it was a bit of a crazy start, I think, to my career, I was still at school, got a lot of time off school, and I think I enjoyed that also the most. But I was so well looked after by all the people and yeah, it's the people that make it so special. - Yeah, I think you can see that, 'cause you often choose playing for the ferns over some cash somewhere, and often turn down bigger contracts to go play for a different team for half as much, just to be happy and in the right environment. So I love that that you value like a good environment and a good times ahead of that, 'cause that's quite rare, especially for someone so young. So that's a lot like that as well, and probably why you two are quite a good mates. - I guess like with the professionalism now, it's changing so much. It's more money being thrown at you and whatnot. And I think, I mean, everyone's in a different situation. And because of my age still being 23, I feel like for me, the most important thing is enjoying my cricket and enjoying the people I play with. Whereas, you know, maybe when I'm 35, it's that you wanna make more money and set yourself up for life, but for me, it's always been about, if I'm enjoying my cricket and enjoying the people I'm around, that's how I get the best out of myself, and that's way more important to me than a few extra. 'Kay, because you wanna do what you love, you wanna be happy doing it too. - Yeah, and you wanna do it all year round, don't you? And just not in drubs and drabs, 'cause that's the same thing that happened in that. It's just a stop, and it's not fun. Like, it's meant to be fun. Like, that's why we start in the first place, so. Back to your like epic day of cricket, your day out at cricket, 232 against Ireland, and a five for, I think, was it? Pretty terrible day for you at your office. (laughs) What about that day? But we're going to dub back to Dublin, actually, soon. Tell us something about that day, and did you think that put a lot of pressure on you going forward from that, how'd it on Earth be better? - Yeah, it is a shame, because I'm never gonna have a better day of cricket. I hate it though, I peaked at 17. But, I mean, back then I was a bowler, and I was bowling for New Zealand, I wasn't really betting, and it was the first time I got to open the betting for New Zealand, and, so I just wanted to make the most of that opportunity. - You did. - And, yeah, it was just like what every cricket stage, when they're in there, I guess, the best time of their career is it's, you're not really thinking, it's seeable, hit ball, and you're extremely clear. And like, the game has changed so much since back then, and I was, again, just young wanted to go out and enjoy my cricket, and after the betting innings, I thought I was just gonna be able to sit down, I'll field at first level day, and Suzy told me to warm up and bowl, and manage to get fired, so. Yeah, I think, I mean, that's pretty special, and, I mean, I guess there was media attention after that, and I would never really loved media. So thanks for having me on this now. (laughing) - Snares. - Yeah, it was, I didn't really think too much into it, and people was boarded up, and you say the same thing, kind of over and over again, but for me, it was kind of, that was an awesome day, but I wanted to be an established, all round, a full New Zealand, and I wanted to back it up, and I wanted to have match winning performances against some of the best countries in the world, and it was almost maybe a belief factor that I can give myself a chance to be in all round, a full New Zealand, and I knew it was going to take time, but yeah, it was a crazy day, and one that I would never repeat. (laughing) - Wow, nice for you to stay positive with that. - Yeah. - But it was a crazy start to your international career. If you felt pressure off the back of that, would you just feel like, I can park that, I haven't got any pressure, really, now, I can just go out and enjoy everything. - I didn't feel pressure too much after that, I think, yeah, I think it was more about just moving on and not thinking about it because there's so much cricket to be played, you just have to move on to the next one, and it doesn't matter what really happened, I think after that game, what was hard is when we went and played other teams, I was still kind of wanting to be in all round, a full New Zealand, and I was kind of floating around that six, seven, eight, betting position, and I almost felt like, if I failed in a game, then I'd be back at nine or 10, and so from probably 17 years old to 19 years old, I kind of felt like every time I'd bet it, I had to prove a point, and then when I didn't get runs, I'd be back at nine and 10, and so that was probably the pressure I put on myself is because that opportunity wasn't so consistent. I put that pressure on myself, but I was always being picked in the 11 because of my bowling, and it probably was when Bob Carter became coach of the White Ferns, and in 2020, he just batted me four, and that's probably when I believed a bit more in my betting, he helped me a lot, and I did that consistent opportunity, and also from the failures in the past as well, I think that's hard to learn, hard to be successful straight away on the job, you've got to learn, even though the failures suck, you learn from them and get better, and that was probably the key. - Yeah, you've got to be allowed to fail, and as long as you can learn from them, it certainly makes you better playable pages you go through. Sounds like this is the first time I've ever spoken to, but you sound like I've already wise head on your shoulders, particularly how you talk about learnings and how your career might pan out. - How do you think a 39-year-old's good mates for the 23-year-old? - I actually tell you what to do, Brunter. - Kevin's extremely mature, that's why. (laughing) - It's too true. - Excellent. Why don't I just ask you, Miley, was how big an influence has your family been, and are they a constant guidance for you? 'Cause I just want to, as a bit of a role call here with International Sportsman and your family, let me try and, if I've missed any out, please correct me, but your mother, Joe, and father Robbie both played the Wellington. Your elder sister, Jess, is an international curriculum in New Zealand as well, which is a bit more well known. One of your grandfathers, Bruce Murray, played test cricket for New Zealand, and you've even got a cousin, Silla Duncan, who's played football for New Zealand, the football ferns. Is that correct, all of that? Is there any more? - Yes, no, that's all correct. I don't think there's any more. (laughing) - How about what's happening? 'Cause if you've got parents who are professional sports people, and you've got other family members who have played at the highest level, is that just a constant source of support for you? - Yeah, I'm very lucky. My family's incredible, so they mean so much to me, and that's kind of my number one, or my number one value in life as family, and I'll always put my family first. And it's not necessarily that they've ever given me advice on how I should play or the technical side of things. My dad's been a huge mentor for me, probably more tactically in the mental side of the game. - And then what do you call it? - The debriefs. - The summaries, yeah, the debriefs. - The debriefs, yeah. He's great, after every game I get a text from dad, and it's positive, but also critical, but in a nice way. And when we're in India, you know, if Nat had a bad day, and she had a couple of bad days, I was like, "Dad, Nat needs a text." So he'd send me one throw for Nat, and I'd bring it out to Nat on the bus. But it's good. He's not one of those parents where you get a message from your dad after a game, you're like, "Shut up, you know, nothing." Like, it's something I look forward to after every game. And he's so wise, and I respect his opinion so much. But I think mostly my family and my whole extended fano as well have taught me probably more things are important to life than sports. And I think that's probably been the best thing for me. Getting into cricket, young, it was like, "You're just playing sport, doing what you love." But the perspective piece is more important, and I guess my mum is so driven and determined, and as a female, that's an awesome role model. To have, and how she's faced adversity in her life is probably, I've watched that as a young kid, and my dad's always just been so calm and wise. And me, she hadn't always kind of been there for people. He's looked after a lot of people in his life, and they've all made a huge impact on others. So I think growing up, it was seeing the stuff more they did outside a sport that meant more to me. And still today, all that stuff means more to me than a bed and a ball. - Amazing, how cool is it to play international sport with your sister as well? - Yes, epic, she's a legend, yes. And yeah, I mean, it's so nice. You're away for a long periods of time, so to have family on tour with you, you kind of take it for granted at times because not everyone gets there. And there's nothing better, I guess, than standing next to her in the national anthem and singing that next to her. I think that's always the moment we love to share together. And I mean, today's gonna be another special word in her first game at Lord's, and taking the field together at the home of cricket. - Yeah. - Get yourself on that board. - Yeah, that'd be all, that would be it. - Good luck. - Should you choose the right end? Choose the right end. - Yeah, I'll have a word to say it today. - And also, don't mind me asking about your partner as well. He's also a professional cricketer, Nathan Smith, who this summer has been starring for Worcestershire as an overseas band, actually. And I only realized this today that you're actually with him, that he's done very well for Worcesters. Someone that I played a game there last year, and I keep an eye out for results and everything. And it looks like a very decent cricketer. So is he enjoying his time over in County Cricket? - Yeah, he's absolutely loving it. He loves the Worcester boys and the set up there. It was nice before the England series, I came over to and spent a bit of time there. So yeah, they're a great club. They're quite family orientated too. And yeah, he's absolutely loving his time and it's such a cool opportunity for him. So yeah, he's enjoying the English lifestyle. - Well, so it is a busy lifestyle, County Cricket. - Yeah, so it's got to have. - Are you able to help each other out with your shared experiences as well, being, you know, both high level sports people? - I think in a way, I think the best thing probably is if we do want to talk about cricket or talk about, then I train and get all games or whatever, we both understand the lifestyle would be the same for Catherine and Nat, that if you do want to talk about it, you can and the person gets it, but it's also important, I think, to completely switch off and not talk about cricket. And that's probably a great one where, I mean, you can meet young cricketers and their life is cricket, that's the most important thing. And with me, I've always had other things in my life that are important and with Nathan as well, he's an extremely well-rounded individual. So the fact that he's got other things in his life going on probably helps us both be better cricketers, but also their relationship, because cricket's not everything. And I think if it was for both of us, it would be way too consuming and it wouldn't work. - And also, like Nat and Catherine, you don't have to play against each other, it doesn't get walked. - Exactly. I mean, I've bowled to him once in the next, got a mountain for Robin. (laughs) - Yeah. - Oh, brilliant, Bragan writes. - It's always the wrong one. - Fantastic. I know Catherine's got some important questions for you on mental health as well. - Yeah, like you've been quite open about it, haven't you? And that's great because there's so many, you don't realize how fast bread it is and especially in sport, that people just don't talk about it and they ignore it. I know obviously Nat had a little stint, but that was very minor. It was more just about the modern era, playing so much cricket, not knowing when to stop basically because you love your country and you don't like to let people down. It's like the two things that you prioritize above yourself. And it's great that you've been an advocate for it, even though you're still so young and obviously having to go through your career with that. So how important do you think it's been to have taken that time off and dealt with it in such a great, mature way and still be able to come back and perform even better than you ever did before? - Yeah, mental health for me is something I've, I reckon I've been surrounded by it from a young age since I was about 14 and through seeing my family members or friends struggle and then going through my own experiences with depression and anxiety. It kind of made me realize the importance of it because when I was going through everything, how alone you feel and that these thoughts aren't normal or I shouldn't be feeling this way. And all of those things are actually, everyone has mental health, everyone's going through something in their life and we're all on a different spectrum. Some people are really struggling, some people might be minor, but I think the fact that I felt so alone then afterwards, once I got myself into a bit of place to lend my voice to it to I guess open up conversations and to normalize the conversation, I believe is only going to help others and I think that was the most important thing for me. And once I went through everything, I mean, I hope I never go through something like that again, but I learned so much about myself and now the ability to help others through lived experiences, probably. The thing I'm most proud of in my life so far and yeah, it's definitely allowed me to come back with a fresh mindset with cricket and none of my stuff was really related to cricket, but I was not in a place to be able to travel the world and play cricket because of what I was going through. I needed a support net with at home and consistent help from a psychologist, a psychiatrist and all of that and to then come back and play, it was scary at first, but I guess it just, it also gave you more perspective as well, you know? Good day, bad day. - Yeah, do you think having just helped that and made you carry on a bit longer before you decided to just have a little bit of a break? - Yeah, having just there probably helped more in terms of if my return to playing because before that, I kept everything inside and I didn't tell anybody what I was going through the whole, if I tell someone, and I didn't tell Jess, my parents, nobody. I think the only person I told was Maddy Green and it was, the reason I didn't tell my family is because we were so close and if I told them, I didn't want them to feel as though my pain was their pain and that they had and that they blamed themselves for what I was feeling and I wanted to protect them so I didn't tell them, but once I'd kind of gone through it all and my family had been my support and then I'd been more open. Going on tour, having Jess was so important because before that period when I was in my break, I was not able to sleep alone, so I was always with someone. I was on medication which at first I wasn't very open about and all these different things that I knew that having Jess on tour, if I had a bed night or whatever, I could go to her room or I could go cry and comfort with my sister, things like that. And so I think that was probably a safety net for me but also probably a safety net for my parents, allowing me to go back on tour and I am my older sister's there. - Yeah, I think when you say about reaching out, helping other people, even just talking about it now and this will definitely help other budding young cricketers everywhere around the world. So I was very fortunate to be getting under the lid of your meals, that's for sure. You've got a series called "Tread in Water" which I've only just found out about which I can't believe, I only just, not even fill in me in where you're speaking to other people about their mental health. - Are you like the producer, director? Was it your idea? Do you like present it? How did that come about? - Yes, that came about two or three years ago now. After my experiences, I called a guy in New Zealand called Mike King, who was a comedian and he now is, I guess, the sit up this charity called "I am Hope" in New Zealand and it offers free counseling to people under 25 because it's so expensive to go see a psychologist and I called him, told him my idea and that I wanted to speak to a range of different people and share their experiences and I wanted a mixture of high profile and just your ordinary day-to-day people because the more stories out there, the more people can relate to them and not all people, I guess, have a voice in the media. It's often high profile people as well. So I wanted a real range and, yeah, the first year of it, I had eight different people share their stories, which included myself and my dad and then last year, I interviewed three more people and then before coming to England this year, I interviewed another three people and it's all stories of people who have had struggles I guess things that have helped them, how they found hope and I guess through those, I'd interview all the people and, yeah, it's like a series I'm so proud of, it's done in a video piece, so it's also, it's an emotional watch, but you do feel that hope at the end of it and, yeah, there's so many great stories and I think of when I was struggling if I saw some stories like that that I could relate to and see that they came out the other side that would help provide that hope that, actually, these days don't last forever because when you're going through it, that's what it feels like. - Yeah, and when you talk to a psyche like, it's quite, it's quite tunneled isn't it? And it's, you're there and it's quite intimidating, but sharing stories, it actually makes it a bit more open, a bit wider, like, oh, this is the wide world, actually, nearly everyone's going through something on different levels and sharing different stories and what mental health looks like on a really broad spectrum. Was it like quite cathartic? Was it like a kind of healing or opening for you? Just make it easier to sort of be out there with it and carry on and play cricket to a high level? - It definitely was, I remember the first time I came out in the media with why I took the break. It was scary and, but I thought I can't be a hypocrite and say and lie about why I wasn't. Because I've always been so passionate about helping others and because I've seen other people struggle and, yeah, I think the more you talk about your story, actually, the easier it gets every single time. And I mean, launching the serious trading order was, again, it was like another scary thing because it was another step in being even more open and more vulnerable. But seeing the impact that's had on others and what it's done for other people back home and strangers, it means so much. I always said if one video saves one person's life, then it's worth it. And for each video, that's however many lives and also the fact that people can watch it and donate to charity, which provides free counselling. It's, yeah, it's something that I think so important and actually talking has become therapy. And at first, that's the scariest step that it gets easier each time. And that's, you're not always gonna find the person you wanna talk to straight away and it can be anyone, but there's always someone out there that's gonna listen. - I hope you're rewarded for that in due course. And I don't know what your version of that is in New Zealand by your prime minister or anything, but, yeah. I mean, EOBs, MBs, people bloody Dame. - It won't be a gate. - You need a gate, Dame, Dame Mille Kerr. - For one of the better words, it sounds like an amazing project, if you like. - Thank you. - I'm blown away really, like it's, process proper under the lid information and to find out if you're gonna be a legend, not just for your cricket for this, I could be more important outside of it. And I know that Broncy and I have both talked about our mental health therapy journeys on here before, and it's important that we're professional sports people, and it's tough for people to open up especially high performing athletes. So if anyone's listening and take something from this, or I'm certainly gonna go and try and look up your work now and try and see what you do. So that's honestly, that's amazing, it really is. - Is that on, sorry, just quickly. Is that on Spotify or anything? - No, so on my Instagram, merely there's a link in my bio to all the full videos. So I post little snippets on my Instagram, and then there's a website called outoftherath.nz, and if you click onto trading water, it's got all the videos from the last two years, and then the next three are gonna, hopefully they'll be released around September this year. - Wicked, well you heard it here first. All our millions of listeners to this podcast, they will be heading over to your Instagram page pretty quickly, I think. Moving on to your international career again. You've obviously been around the set up quite a while now, and you're either, although you're still younger, one of the more experienced players. What's the future of New Zealand women's cricket looking like? And now are there any certain players for us to keep an eye out for for the future? - Yeah, it's been a bit of an ace transition phase for the white fans as of late. I think that we had that home World Cup in 2022, and since then, we lost some really key players. Amy Seth White, he was a legend of the game. Katie Martin, who kept for us for about 15 years, and I guess before that, there wasn't so much who's, you still hear her around the grounds now. Yelling, then she's a great sport of that. - I'll be honest, this is where all afternoon. - I mean, Catherine and Katie together is a dangerous combo. No one else will get a word in. (both laughing) - Shout out. - It's true though, she is a caution. - She is. But yeah, the investment pace is kind of happening more now in New Zealand than we've seen that with equal match fees to the men and more contracts about, I guess eight players outside of the white fans on kind of a contract throughout the year. And it's definitely not the same as what it is now in England or Australia with the domestic players all being contracted, but it's definitely growing. And I think New Zealand cricket have realised if they don't invest in us now, we're just gonna fall behind. And with New Zealand too, we've only got five million people. So in terms of depth as well, it's gonna be harder than, you know, your countries like India who have (beep) billions. (both laughing) - Bloody billions. - But we in the white fans now have some young players coming through who are extremely talented and awesome. And I think the hardest part for them is they've had to learn on the job. Some have probably played more games for New Zealand now than they have domestically for their own teams, but they've stepped up, they work (beep) hard and the more they are challenged to international cricket, the better they're gonna be. And some of them are still only 20 years old. So I think in terms of moving forward in the future, we're in a really good place in terms of we've got young players who are stepping up and learning in a tough environment, but they're resilience in the way they turn up and work hard and train and wanna get better. It's exciting. And for me being a young player, knowing that I'm not gonna be able to play with Susie Bates and Sophie Devine for the rest of my career, but knowing that these young girls are there and coming through is exciting for me because I think they've got so much talent and they've got the work ethic that it's gonna be an exciting kind of five, 10 year period. And I think a lot of the white ferns that are playing now, those young ones are a lot of players to look out for because they're 20 now playing international cricket and they're only gonna get better and better. - Can you give us one of them for a gem to look out for? - Yeah, I think Izzy Gaze is one that stands out for me. She's got a 50 against England and the T20 is at home and she's got all the shots. She's our wicket keeper. So she's one, I think, Georgia Plimmer of nine her since she was about 12 and I always said she'll be a white film one day. And then Fran Jonas as well, left dumb to spin and then with it also got Molly Penfold, who's Catherine would like her. She's fresh, she's more. She's very athletic, fast, quick. And I think level got huge ceilings and it's exciting to see where they'll go. - Yeah, I was massively impressed with her. Even that game at Durham. Like it's hard to like focus on some of your cricketers because obviously the games have been run quite easily. And then some of these girls have walked with no wickets or whatever, but you have to, people will need to look beyond that. Like I could see what she was producing and it's like literally everybody knows Elite Sport is a game of small margins as the only comment it likes to say. Yeah. And like if I don't put the ball six inches in the right place, I'm gonna get hit for four. Like that's just the margin of error for now. So like being obsessed with where you bowl the bowl is something she could do more. But I love that she's at the minute. It looks like she can just run in a bowl. But she will learn through all of this. Like I think it's a really good thing. Yeah. We're winning so well because you've really got to go back and not yourself. 'Cause you're carrying yourself very well as is, you know, the Soph and Suzy. But the others, this is the big key stuff is that all the batterings that they'll feel from this, they won't ever want that to happen again. And they'll have a little bit more of an in-depth look at what's going on, what's wrong. And literally only improve from what's happening. Yeah, I think I can't wait. I think the future's great for you. I think you want to challenge yourself against the best players in the world. And like you said, missing by six inches, you get hurt. And I think that's what the English bowling attack is so good at there. So extremely consistent. And I mean, it looks like we have been smashed by England in this series. But I think there's been moments of some really good stuff. And it's taking the confidence from that, that when we are at our best or really good, we can compete against the best sides in the world. And taking that back home, it's just doing it for longer. And you want to challenge yourself against the best because then you're going to get better. And then you go play more cricket around the world or turn up to a world cup. And you've got to beat them in a one-off game. And you turn up for that and you play at your best. But it's, yeah, I mean, it's tough cricket, but it's only going to help us learn and grow, I think, moving forward. 100%. You mentioned Susie Bates and Sophie Devine there, two obviously icons of world women's cricket, not just New Zealand. They're obviously not going to go on forever. And they've probably offered a lot of leadership and guidance in that change room. There's a taste of captaincy as well. But you had a taste of captaincy at the back end of last year against Pakistan. How does captaincy fit with you? Is it something you would be keen to take on longer term? Or are you quite happy just being in the background? Yeah, I mean, captaining your country is always something you should never take for granted. So those games were special to do. And I mean, for me, I guess, growing up, I've always liked the tactical side of the game. And I always love trying to get the best out of your people how you can get the best out of each individual. And I think that's kind of the two things that go together in terms of captaining cricket. Because you've got to make a lot of on field decisions, too. And for me, I'm in absolutely no rush to captain New Zealand. But I think one day I would love to captain New Zealand. And that's probably almost the plan in place. But for now, I'm very happy just kind of doing my role of the team, being able to lead without a title. And yeah, if in the future, if you use down the track, that's the plan. I'd be happy to, especially with the group we have, I think, the incredible people. And the way they work in that young group coming through, I think, that's a team you want to captain, because you want people that can believe and work hard and buy into things. And that's what those young girls have. Can't go far on without, mate. That's what I'll say. Catherine will be the violin coach. Yeah, I'm coming through. I'm going through for head coach, mate. She's going to live in Queenstown and play golf and coach a bit of cricket. I was at TV and obviously quite heavily involved in the series, commentating why. So I've practically watched every ball. And in my head, I'm like, where would I just tweak that a little bit? If I just talked to her and said this, or if I just-- And I'm like, oh, and I can see some bits. And it's just such small tweaks. I think that-- And a lot of it's just mental, too. So it's like-- And the coach basically making you feel a million dollars like first port of call. OK. And then you go from that. And it's like, is there a coach doing that? I don't know. You never want to like. But you can always sit in back and watching, it's easy. Yeah, and I think what for your England girls, they, a lot of them, play all around the world. So they experience different environments, coaches. Like at Mumbai, Julan, and you came to training. So imagine if we had a couple of those Kiwi girls there and you can talk to them, but at the moment, there's only a handful of us, a couple of us, that are playing those French has come. But I think for me, from a young age playing in those, it's allowed me to work with different people. And you want to filter the advice you get. But I think you also want to take as much on. You want to be a sponge and learn. Because that's how you get better. And if you look at players that have played like if Catherine came and talked to our bowlers, she's one of the probably the best pace bowl of the women's games in the head. So there's going to be something to learn. But get the get the brand gate, not like it. Get the brand bowling in, not the silver brand bowling interhetingly. There we go. Nice out there. Yeah, honestly, when I see new teamers come on board, I get really excited about it. I'm like, let's get involved. Come on. They make you awesome. Because you can see where you just take someone at face value. And they just go tick, tick, tick, tick. And the things that are not ticked are like the bits that is easily fixed. You can't make someone grow a foot more. Yes. And you can't make someone suddenly be really strong and have a strong call. That takes months, years of hard work. Like, it can happen, but do you know what I mean? When it's little things, there's so many of your girls that just tick a lot of boxes. So, yeah, it's great. I can't wait. Can you tell me? Should we ask you about franchise? And a franchise-- I've got to push one out first. And recover. Franchise cricket. You've played in them all, literally all. And I'm always encouraging that to go. No one off you go. And some dollar. But it's so naughty, because it's so enticing. But you've got to make sure you're not playing 365 days a year, which Cola Cadmore would want to do, Jack. He said he loves living out of a bag in hotels and traveling. He doesn't like anything else, which is the strangest thing I've ever heard. But, yeah, it's come on a lot, hasn't it? Do you feel like you have to be very selective of when or where you go and for how long? Yeah, I think now it's definitely something with the international cricket, I guess, that's increasing in terms of how much we play. And now there's more leagues around the world. It has been selective. So each year I'll play an out my year. White ferns and New Zealand's my priority. And then working out how I can still play in the other leagues, because they're really important. And they help me a lot in their great opportunities. But as long as I keep turning up fresh for New Zealand, that's the key. Like this year, I'm not playing in the 100. And it's a comp I absolutely love. But it's just the amount of cricket we have. And obviously, big best is closer to home. And it's been short in this year. So, yeah, each year I just got to work out what I want to do. And if I can find all of them, that's awesome. But I think that's going to be less likely now because of how much woman's cricket there is. Yeah. And that's such a smart choice. Like, you can't fault you for that. That's a time at home, choosing something close to home that's now equally as long or very close to the 100. So it's a great job. And now I was saying, like, why not go to the WBBL? And then she mapped it out. And it would literally be away from home about four months in a row. And not many days off at all. And it's just like, you don't want that, do you? You know that you're like, yeah, I can get through that. And then you do. And then you're like, what the hell have I done that for? Now, I'm not sure about the next few months after this. And it's in ashes. So you're like, right, what's more important? So it is absolutely something they have that. Do you have something called the Future Tours program? And the ECB map out the next 12 to 18 months, what they look like in as much detail as they can. They never used to let us do this. And so we'd never ever be able to book a holiday in our time off. We were like, where's our time off? I don't understand why we can't even let us know. But now they have to, because the IPL needs to have a month in the world schedule. The ashes needs to have a month, whatever. So it's great that you can look ahead and be like, what's-- because you don't know it in your head. You probably could get through it all. Yeah. But you just don't want to risk it, do you? So-- Yeah, and I think I'm big on like, once I make a decision. So like, I'm not playing the 100 then. That's my decision. I'm not playing it. And I'm not going to be like, oh, I wish I was. And if I did commit to playing in the 100, it's like, oh, I'm giving that to you, my oh, and I've committed to that. And the hardest part is making the decision. But once I've made the decision, then I'm fully in, or fully out, and you live by that knowing you've made the best decision for yourself. How was your experience of the 100, Miley? And what was your favorite ground in England? My favorite ground in England is the oval. It's a great ground. It is great, isn't it? Yeah. That could be controversial to people who love lords in a traditional, especially because lords is the home ground for my team. But yeah, no, I think the oval atmosphere, the way they kind of like a bad view, and they always get a good crowd there. It's a bit of a party atmosphere. So I love playing here. Howdy. Great. I love it when we get-- Where am I going? I'm going to the oval soon. 23rd, autumn, 6th. Today. For the 100. I'm obviously going to lords today, so I'm going to get some. See you in the year. But the oval next week, and they've got-- is it catburns to the musician? I actually really like her. She's so good. And she's performing. I think it's the opener. I think the oval always get the opener. Even the-- Yeah. Sit the stand then. You always get the fireworks all the way around the stadium. It's pretty cool, actually. I don't know. If I was a fan, the 100 would be top of my list, I think. Yeah. In England, it's pretty sweet, isn't it? You can get just enough bevies in. Bit of entertainment, both cricket and music. And then, yeah, they've really up their game. Yeah, it's a good day out. It's actually the 100. Get there. Get your fries. No. Choose something healthier. Get a shallow day, Katherine. That's what you'd be eating. And get it. No, you'd be on the real ails, Katherine. We know that, don't we? No, I'm sober now. It's over. Sounds like I've got a problem. We could move on to the guest stat alert, which is one of our weekly segments, regular segments. We do have a siren for this one, Lili as well, which is even more posh. [SIGHS] Yeah, so it's the cricket archive guest stat alert on you. As I already mentioned, you hold the record women's ODI score of 232, not out from 145 balls. Yes. 31-4, 2-6 is no less. I only row hit Sharma and Martin Guptool in the men's games have actually managed better than-- A little bit more. Yeah. So you are a superstar. And you're the only woman to score a century and take a five for an ODI. You took five to 17, that's where I was as we mentioned. I feel like that will never happen again. No, not likely. Come on, next. No. Only four men's players have done that feat in international ODI cricket. And that's Viv Richards, Paul Collingworth, Rohan Mustafar for the UAE, and Baz de Lida for the Netherlands. So you're in a select group. I think if Nat Bold likes not meaning paces, she had five mile an hour more, or she was a leggy. Yeah, or at least, all left arm off, yeah. Then-- She just needs a wet green pitch one day, didn't she? And just a couple. She just needs to stop holding and just bubbling bit to her mark at the moment. We'll give it a quick PCA MVP update before we move on to the next big question. In the PCA MVP standings in the men's game, Hampshire's Liam Dawson, my pick preseason, maintains his place at the top of the overall men's standings. In the blast, Michael Pepper has been an unbelievable form recently. He is now up to second. He made 120 this week against Sussex in the latter. And he's certainly one for the future. And how good would it be for England if they had a salt and a pepper open the batting at some point? Dan Mausley is third overall, the war ritual rounder on top of the blast table at the time of this recording, just ahead of David Payne and Michael Pepper. Very, very close, and I think it's going to go down to the wire. How's the women's MVP looking, Bronte? We say pepper. You'd say peeper. Deck and dick. That's my favourite. Well, in the women's, you've got Catherine Bryce, my Scottish pal, who I love dearly, is still at the top of the overall, which is grand. But she's narrow, oh my God, I can't say the word narrowly. Ahead of Charlie Knott, I feel the Aussie, is on her way. That was a great signing, by the way. I saw her play the last few years in the BBL. And then her last year, I was like, she just looks like someone who you wouldn't think about, but to play cricket. And then she plays cricket and you're like, she can play cricket. So it was a great signing because they would have got her for a decent amount. And she seems like a keen mean. So you've got Charlie Knott in second and Holly Armitage, New York, she last third. But in the Hayhoe Flint standings, we have actually got two Aussies in there. Amanda, Jade, Wellington, another leggy. And actually, Holly Armitage is a leggy also. So the leggies are really dominating the MVP this year. But yeah, they're all rounder at the top, shock. - Always gonna. - Right. Next segment, Mealy, is under the lids big question. So every week we ask a guest, something that hopefully, obviously not everyone in the world 'cause you're gonna have told someone. But most people don't know about you. And hopefully it's something a little bit more on the quirky side, but not too dodgy. So we have had a tattoo on the ass. - So you can, you know, expand. - No, no, no, no, no, no, one. - So, Mealy, tell us something we don't know about you. - That's a really tough question. And I had time to prepare. No, I prepared that thing. - Excellent. - So, one, I play guitar, which most people actually know. I would say, well, not most. - Not everyone, not everyone. - I don't. - I didn't. - Not very well. He does play well. I have a very musical family. I don't sing. I like singing, but I don't sing that well. I'm a good rapper though. Who's better you are just singing? - Jess is the singer and the family. That's why I like singing the national anthem next to her 'cause you sound really good 'cause it's nice. She's like this. - Good to say, like you can't say you're a good rapper and then not back it up. - Nah, that was a lie. - No, don't do that. You should say me, you need to come to India when I'm on karaoke and you get a thing, you're lucky. But Niagara-- - Well, there's lots. I grew up in a musical family. We had the English round for a barbecue. Careful it was my family house. My grandma was on the piano and everyone was singing around. It was a good night, man. But when I was younger, I did athletics. Because my sister did. And when I was 10 years old, I was actually the discus champion in Wellington. - Well, there we go. Could've been Olympic hopeful. - Yes. - Could've, I don't think, I don't think I grew much since I was 10, so I might have struggled to keep that up. - You're dominated at that. - Yeah. - Quite a lot of fun to do. - Quite a lot of fun to do. - There wasn't it. - Yeah. - But that's like, heavy of all. - Some revs on that. - Yeah. Right, we've moved on to our last round, which is the quiz, the half quiz. So, you get a score on the board, which is coming up right now. You get some runs. And for every correct question, you get right. You get one run. It's not general knowledge. It's about cricket. Some of it, you've got to be a real badger about yourself mainly. - As you get these right. So, it's not about English cricket. - Nah. - A lot of it's about you, really. Let's be honest, a lot of it's about you. If you don't know the answers, it's passed, so we can get another question, 'cause it's kind of a quick fire. And we've got a lead of all of them. And there will be a prize for the winner. - Geez, imagine if a Kiwi wins. - Well, I think you're the only, you're the only overseer for England in our list. Three is the bottom score, and the leader is Ollie Han and Dolby still on eight. So, as long as I beat three. - Right, I'll count you in. You ready? Three, two, one, go. - How many balls did you face during your ODI record innings of 232, not out? - One, four, five. - Yes, correct. - What field in record? - Did you achieve in an ODI against India in 22, where you also scored 119 now? - Fielding catches. - Yes. - Do I need to say how many? - No, who has a better international T20 batting strike rate? You or Jess? - Jess. - Nah, trick question. Who did you dismiss on your ODI debut against Pakistan? - Ah, Santa Mia. - Yes, correct. How many tests did your grandfather Bruce play for New Zealand? - Four, 20. - Same as me. - 20. - 30. - Yeah, generous. - Which country have you taken the most T20 wickets against? - Ooh. India. - England. How many times have the Sydney sixes won the women's BBL? - Twice. - Yeah. - Yes. How do New Zealand play in their first match? What? Who do New Zealand play in their first match of the upcoming T20 World Cup? Who have you got first? - India. - India, correct. - Yeah. - That's not great. - What will make you happy though, is that five beats net it. No, it doesn't say man's. - Yeah. - Twins. - I thought she got four. - She was pretty bad, so. - Just out of interest. - Yeah. - Next question. We've had this question for all of our listeners, or most of them, is how many Instagram followers do you have? Do you know how many you've got? - 300K. - Far off, not far off. - Send us a few, my way, will ya? - After this, after under the lid goes viral. - I'll be millions. - Millions. - Millions. - Literally millions. - I think this is where we can literally let you go and do some priming or something. - Great stuff. - Before you smash-- - Go get really. - For a smashed England. - Yeah, 'cause that's what I mean. - Are you supporting us today then? - I am actually, 'cause I want you on that board. We'll change your mood. - Don't you gotta get a hundred or a five foot to get on the board? - Yeah. - Well, stop doing this myself. - That's tough, 20 overs. - You can go see my five foot there. - Yeah, I'll highlight it. I'll take a picture. - You'd have to be in the home changing room though. I'm sure Nat will let you in. - She will afterwards. - It's like a museum. Right, nearly loved having you on. Thank you very much for your time. - Thanks for being here. - Thanks for getting under the lid with us. Good luck today. - Thank you. - Thanks for having me. (upbeat music) - Well, Belle, Catherine, good work getting her sorted out. - Hello, what do you reckon? - Awesome, quite a lot to talk about. And a very articulate and measured and thoughtful, for a such a young lady as well. But a hell of a journey she's had as well. From a young age and then also did journey away from sport with the mental health is really interesting to that. Like you said, if that can hurt one person. - Already worth it. - Already an eight year journey and still 23, but you know, willing to be so open about stuff that isn't easy to talk about. So she's a great ambassador for the game and I hope she sticks around for a long time 'cause we absolutely need to people like her. - Yeah. - In women's cricket, like, and just women's sport in general. - Yes. - Brilliant, a lover. - Fantastic role model. Moving on to some feedback we've had this week. - Ooh. - The first one I think you can read out. If it's the same alum for them that works for the ECB, that's interesting. - Is it? I really out brilliantly put Ravi Bapara. I said the same 27 years ago, but nowhere near as eloquently as you. My phrase was, there is only so much you can take. And that is what makes pro sport tough. And I didn't even play for half as long as you. It can get you any time. Thank you Ravi. So, great. - It's great to have somebody listening and to resonate with as well. It's fantastic. - Yeah, I mean, this is about sharing stories in it as well as talking to others. - Exactly, getting up and in emotionally with other people. Next one, "Hi, Catherine Jack. It's Grace from the mighty Devon. Love listening to the pod every week really makes my day. I recently went to Somerset Creek Club, Taunson, to watch the ODI against Pakistan. And I met you, but I was too relaxed as you, Catherine, by the way. And I was too reluctant to really talk to you. My brother and uncle were trying to get me to talk to you as I'm a big fan of your wife, Nat Sivabran. I took this stunning no look catch whilst walking to the club shop at the We Got Game Play Zone. But my uncle said, just imagine if Nat and Catherine had seen that, wow, that would have been great. So don't need to be shy, is there? You won't bite. - Absolutely, no need to be shy. I was way scarier playing than I am not. A lot of people say that's the most interesting part about me is that on and off the pitch, it's like Jekyll and Hyde. So feel free to come and sail up. I will not bite, I promise. - Yeah, please do. If you do approach Catherine, don't be scared. I don't want to be scary. Anyway, that's it for the feedback this week, isn't it? But we absolutely love it. That was great. I love that people, when they write in and let us know that something's resonated with them or that they love tuning in every week, it's the best part of the week. That's such a heartwarming thing to say. So thank you for that. And if you want to leave any more questions or, I'll give us any, well, we've not had any abuse yet, so that's great. - No, I don't think we have. It'd be nice to have some just to get some in. - No. Then it's the usual hashtag under the lid. Our email at hello@under the lid.co.uk. - Indeed, and that is it for this week. Thanks for getting on the lid with us. Please like, subscribe, tell all your friends and we'll be back next week with another fantastic guest. Have a great week and it's goodbye from me. - Chiralovs. - Bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)