(upbeat music) - You're listening to The Parting Shot with H. Allen Scott. - Can we talk about that Taylor Swift op-ed everyone sharing on social media right now? It was titled Taylor Swift is not a good role model and it was written by John Mack Gleyon. So many people texted me this op-ed. Oh my God. They texted it just because, you know, I work at Newsweek. One thing I do wanna say up top is the internet needs to learn the difference between an opinion post and an article. An article is a piece of journalism in which someone who has trained is reporting news factual information. Whereas an opinion piece, well, is just that. Someone's opinion. It seems like the internet doesn't quite understand the difference between the two. And I only say this because the people who were texting me, some of them friends, they also don't know the difference or they don't see that it says opinion and it makes me question some of my friends' intelligence. But I digress. But the basic gist of the post is that John says that Taylor Swift is not a good role model for a lot of the young girls that go to her concert because she's not married and, you know, those things. Which whatever, it's an opinion. It's a conservative person's opinion which that shouldn't become as a surprise to anybody. It's also an opinion that I don't necessarily share. I mean, I don't care about Taylor Swift. I never have cared about Taylor Swift. I don't like or dislike Taylor Swift. But I do think that there is something to be said about how we treat female pop stars. Really how we treat women in general. And that somehow Taylor Swift has some sort of moral or social responsibility to be a role model. Whereas some of her male counterparts, like, I don't know, Harry Styles doesn't. Where are the opinion pieces on how Harry Styles wearing nail polish is somehow ruining a generation of young boys. Actually, I'm sure that one exists probably somewhere. I mean, probably. But you know what I mean? There's a different standard for male pop stars than there is for female pop stars. And it seems like male pop stars can just kind of do whatever they want. And sure, someone might have a passing comment on Twitter or whatever, but there aren't actual opinion pieces that are being made about those male pop stars. But there are about people like Taylor Swift. And that to me is the obvious problem. You see, no pop star should be a role model for anyone. Their parents should be. Taylor Swift is just writing music about breakups. She can't stop writing music about breakups. How many times can this woman break up with someone? No judgment. But my God, it's a lot of breakups. But it's not like her music is causing wars or creating political dissent or doing anything wild. It's just music. And she puts on a fun show where she twirls around a stage and has a guitar in her hand. And I don't know, sings. Like, I don't want that person to necessarily be a role model for my kid. Parents should be role models for their kids. And guess what? It's parents who are the ones who can kind of decide if they let their kid go to a tour or listen to music. So if you don't want your kid going to see someone like Taylor Swift, don't buy the ticket. These are not hard things. I think back to when I was a kid and my parents didn't really put a hold on sort of anything that I was watching or listening to. They kind of like let me sort of creatively explore my own interests and sort of the things that I liked. And sure, I probably saw some things that I probably shouldn't have as a kid or read some things that I probably maybe were a little too advanced for me as a kid, but it made me pretty smart. And like, I work at Newsweek now, and that's like a good job. And people think I'm smart because I work at Newsweek. So clearly, someone did something right in my upbringing to make me smart enough to work where I work and do what I do. I mean, let's be real though. I'm not like reporting hard news here. I'm talking to celebrities. So like, I don't do anything too brilliant. But you know what I'm saying? Giving a kid the freedom to explore their own creative interests is I think key to letting that kid grow up to be kind of a well-rounded adult who has references for lots of different creative things. I mean, the fact that I was a 10-year-old kid watching movies from the 1950s or reading books by comedians that were talking about things that were probably a little too advanced for me, but I was still reading them because I was obsessed with that comedian. It taught me things. And then those things came into play when I was older and in school or in conversations with people being like, you know, so-and-so wrote this book or you know, so-and-so did this movie. And those are good things. So I think someday some kid is probably gonna reference this Taylor Swift concert. And it'll help them somehow. I don't know how because I don't know Taylor Swift, but you know what I'm saying? Let kids be weird. Let kids do the things that they wanna do sometimes. It's not gonna hurt them, but be a responsible parent and maybe like, you know, have an eye on some things, but like, don't be so hard that they can't, that you're afraid of what book they're gonna get from the library. Do people still go to libraries? I do. Do kids still go to libraries? I wonder if they're renting Taylor Swift albums from libraries. Interesting. Now, one of the things that I do love is that here at Newsweek, we do have, you know, spaces for conservative opinions, but we also have spaces for lots of other opinions. And there is a response to that Taylor Swift op-ed that I am obsessed with. It is by little Amaya Grace Montgomery, and it is titled, I'm a seven year old Swiftie. Here's why Taylor Swift is a role model for girls like me. And it is adorable. I'm gonna put both links to both opinion pieces in the show notes for this episode. But because everyone was sending me this op-ed about Taylor Swift, I felt like I needed to do an episode and have a conversation with someone about why Taylor Swift is a good role model, but also why everyone just needs to calm down. And so I invited the biggest Swiftie in my life, Kate, Stamin, London on, to tell me about why she thinks Taylor Swift is a good role model, but also to what this means in a larger sense. And Kate knows a thing or two about all this because, you know, she previously worked for Hillary Clinton. So she's, you know, seen firsthand the treatment, how sometimes women in public spaces are treated a little bit differently than their male counterparts. She's also an incredible writer. You can pick up her book, One to Watch, and she has a new one coming out this fall, too. So go on and grab a snack because I will be right back with Kate, Stamin, London. (upbeat music) - With Audible, there's more to imagine when you listen, whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. And Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as a part of your everyday routine without needing to set aside extra time. As an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their ever-growing catalog. Be inspired to explore your inner creativity with Viola Davis' memoir, Finding Me. Find what piques your imagination with Audible. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com/imagine or text-imagine to 500-500. That's audible.com/imagine or text-imagine to 500-500. - So Kate, Kate, this op-ed, we need to talk. People are talking, and when I was getting all of the texts about the op-ed, which just because I work at Newsweek, my first thought was, okay, I need to speak with the number one Taylor Swift fan in my life. And also one of the smartest people I know, just to get their reaction to this op-ed. So Kate, you are that person. Please give me your first reaction. - I will say as honored and blessed and pleased as I am by everything you just said, that's the opposite of the way that I felt. First becoming aware of this column. And then I was like, oh, it's just the usual trash. And then when you asked me to come on this podcast, I was like, all right, well, maybe I better actually read this thing. And I was like, oh, oh, oh, it's worse than I thought. It's like, it's more misogynist, less well researched. It's not even approaching like factual accuracy, let alone cogent argument making, let alone the premise of why do we need this woman to be a quote unquote role model in the first place. So there, you know, I had a lot of problems on a lot of different levels reading through it. - Well, that's the first thing. I mean, I think we're both, you know, we are both writers. So we both believe firmly in people should be able to write the things that they write. And there should be no, I mean, I don't believe that there should be like a policing, especially in opinion articles about what should be written and what shouldn't be written. There are opinion articles for a reason. This isn't a journalistic piece of clearly not deeply researched material. This is a opinion piece. So I believe in the existence of that needing to be a place that people can spout their opinions. That said, I also believe in a world in which opinions can rebut what the things are said. - Absolutely. - In opinion articles. And one of the things that, and this is something that really struck me in reading it too, and then just sort of the general response that I've gotten is the very fact of why does Taylor Swift need to be a role model in the first place? I was texting you this that I don't feel like, like Harry Styles, for example, is ever put up to the test of being the role model for an entire generation of one gender. Like, that doesn't happen. So why is Taylor Swift held up to those standards? What do you think about that? - Well, it all has to do with women and power, right? And I think it's not a coincidence that all of the arguments in the column, and we can go through them as you know, I have one by one. They all place her within the context of her relationships with men and the male gaze, right? And what we're looking at is a woman who's unbelievably powerful. One of the most powerful women on the planet, just in terms of sheer influence right now, and in terms of reach, and she can't say a sentence without the whole global press reporting on it, right? And she has always been a woman who is powerful because she speaks about her own experience, and she's speaking about a female experience to a largely female audience, although that audience has expanded greatly from when, I first joined the fandom, gosh, 13 years ago. And that is something that men have always found really threatening about her, right? So when you hear language from even 10 years ago, but I don't know what it is, Taylor Swift, just really annoys me, right? And that language tends to be coded for, this is a woman who's not conforming to the male gaze, this is a woman who isn't asking men for permission about her power. And then when you use language like role model, that tends to be coded with the same kinds of ideas, right? Is this woman conforming to our ideas of what a woman should be? Is she not messing up the narrative? Is she not encouraging other women to mess up the narrative, right? Is she being a good girl? And she's talked about this a ton, right? She talks about this a lot in the Miss Americana documentary that's on Netflix that I super recommend, both if you are a fan or if you're just not that familiar with Taylor, it's a great look into her life and who she is. And she talks about that in the first part of her life, 'cause she was young when she became famous, she was a teenager, right? She was the youngest woman ever to win the Grammy for Album of the Year. And she talks about how being a good girl, being seen as a good girl was like the entire way that she measured her worth and her value. And it's as she's gotten older that she's been able to break out of that and see the trap of that, right? Because that means other people get to define your value and your worth and whether you're conforming to it. So I think that this kind of role model language, it's really harkening back to that era of her career and isn't really even that relevant to who she is now and the kind of power and success that she's attained, nevermind whether it's a balance thing in the first place. - Well, and that's just it too, is that on some level, yes, I do think powerful figures have some responsibility in the things that they say and they do because they do, she does move economies when her concerts come to town. There's a footprint that she leaves when she comes to town for one of her era's tours, you know? Same with Beyonce, same with all the really superstars that are out there right now. But even with Beyonce, I think it's a great, because I think Beyonce is the only comparable massive superstar working right now that is selling tours like Taylor Swift is, is doing things like Taylor Swift is and is having the impact economically that Taylor Swift is. And I don't believe that Beyonce is even held up to a standard of being necessarily a role model. She's able to do the things, she's able to put out a country album and sure there'll be some backlash and she does receive backlash, which should not go unsaid that the treatment of women of color online is very different from the treatment of white women in the line. And so she definitely receives backlash that is rooted in a lot of the problems with some areas, many areas of the country and the world. That said though, she's not held up to necessarily even be a role. She does have creative freedom that I find a lot of time in the language of Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift is not allowed the creative freedom that other artists are often allowed because of, I don't know, because of the lane she's in. I really don't understand. I mean, and you and I've talked about this too. I'm not a massive Taylor Swift fan, but I'm also not a massive music fan. I don't get it, I don't get music. I'm not a music person. That said, I respect the business that Taylor Swift is. I respect her as sort of a creative business person in what she's been in. If you can reach the level that Taylor's level and have the impact that she's had, my God, that's so impressive. - And also if you can reach that level and have that kind of impact while making genuinely excellent art, right? Like, but it's not just a lowest common denominator kind of success, which I think we've seen certainly not with Beyonce, who I think is superlative. And by the way, I love the way those two women went out of their way last year to support each other and say, don't you dare pit us against one another. I'm gonna show up for her premiere. She's gonna show up for mine. - But that also shows, and this I think speaks to a larger point, that shows that they're aware of their cultural responsibility. And the narrative that oftentimes is put around them because we like to pit women against each other. Successful women against each other. And them doing that sure was a sign of solidarity amongst friends. I'm sure they're friendly. But also too, it carried more of a weight in terms of, I think, a sociological sense. Does that make sense? - Absolutely. And it's something that Taylor's addressed directly in her work in the "You Need to Calm Down" video. So "You Need to Calm Down" is a video and a song that addresses explicitly homophobia and pitting women against one another. And in the video, in the verse that's about pitting women against one another, there are a lot of fabulous drag queens. So there was a Taylor drag queen. There were all different drag queens there. And then Katie Perry shows up in that scene and famously Taylor and Katie were pit against each other when they were sort of the two big pop stars of that era. And they both participated in that quote unquote feud, that was really a media construction designed to sell records. And then to see them hugging and making up and being like, we're not gonna do this anymore, you guys. Like we have moved past this era, we're women. And it's so amazing. There's been a ton of commentary about this that now to see Sabrina Carpenter singing a chapel-rown song, right, to see Billy Eilish and all these kind of Gen Z pop girls supporting each other and be like, oh my God, we actually have moved past it, right? It feels like we are no longer in that era where women have to be competitive and we can sort of do that shine theory and a rising tide lifts all boats and be supportive of one another. - Why do you think then, and you know, I mean, we understand the nature of sort of media and how media works. And you know, we also understand too that like a lot of times conservative writing can be incendiary in the sense that it does ignite a reaction amongst certain populations. And I mean, and that's, I mean, if you just take away politics from it, that's sometimes how writing works. Like it's done to sort of ignite thought and conversation and anger even. And this definitely ignited not so much even the Swifties, but I think also people like myself who are not music-swifty people at all who are like, calm down now. Like this is just a, this is a woman literally-- - You do need to calm down. - You need to calm down because let's be real. Like Taylor Swift is not some 18 year old girl anymore. She is very literally a woman who just like a lot of us are on the path to middle age, creating great stuff, doing great things, being relevant on that path to middle age. I'm not saying she's middle age, but she's in her mid 30s, so it's coming. It's, we're all there. And so to treat her like she's this 21 year old who has this sort of social responsibility for a 12 year old girl, I think is ridiculous. The parent, in my opinion, this is my opinion. The parents have the responsibility to then say, well, should my 12 year old be listening to this music or should be going to these concerts? And even like the royal family, the youngest child did not come to the Taylor Swift concert when, when Prince William came to the show, because probably it's not an appropriate concert for a very young child. The older kids went, that's being a good parent. - And I will say at the, so I've been to the era's tour twice and I'm going once more at this fall with my step mom, who's the most important person in my life and a brand new Swiftie, which is like the most wonderful thing, right? She'll like text me and be like, Red is such a good album. And I'm like, I know, I know. Like, I thought that when I went to the red tour it was like, well, that's really good. But it's like, it's the concerts especially are this unbelievable space for women primarily, but people of all genders to connect with each other and have, I saw a tweet that was like, I thought I was afraid of crowds, but actually I'm just afraid of men because I went to an era's show and like I've never felt that safe in my life. But the second show I went to sitting right next to me was a mom and her daughter who was probably eight or nine and that girl was having the best night of her life like she was having so much fun. But I think to your point, you know, parents have responsibility, and also women have a responsibility, right? The idea that we need a role model is to insinuate that we can't make our own choices about our lives despite what some pop star does, which is not to say that I didn't get a bob with bangs when Taylor Swift got a bob with bangs in 2014, but whatever, I was living in Paris at the time and it needed to be done. But in terms of more serious questions, like whether we should get married, what we should be doing with our lives, what the fuck do we care? Oh, am I allowed to cry? - Yes, please go ahead, girl. - Great, what the fuck do we care? What a pop star is doing, right? That is such an insult, not only to Taylor, but to women, to say that we can't make a teenage girl, right? Which like, if you haven't noticed and you aren't paying attention, teenage girls are incredibly brilliant and kick a lot of ass. So like, we can all make our own choices about our own lives despite an entire movement, which by the way, I don't think rhetoric like this is disconnected from, right? Like saying that a woman has a responsibility to be a wife and a mother is not disconnected from an entire movement to rob women of our bodily autonomy, right? And to push us into forced births that we don't want, right? This is all sort of when you talk about incendiary conservative rhetoric, I think part of it is you have media outlets that are motivated by what's gonna go viral, what's gonna get clicks. Then you have conservative rhetoric that becomes increasingly extremist and incendiary because you sort of have this vicious cycle of the more incendiary you are, the more clicks that you get. And so the rhetoric becomes more extreme and these kind of right-wing, in-cell, misogynist men become more extreme because they see this sort of thick reward for that when their work goes so viral and becomes such a vital part of the discourse. - Yeah, and also too, I mean, there is also, she's getting it from both ends in a lot of ways in that this is one example of a conservative commentator who was commenting on Taylor Swift, but there also is the far left response to Taylor Swift in that she's not being more political, she's not saying enough, she has a social responsibility to do these things or say these things or whatever. And she's getting it from both sides and I tend to fall directly in the middle and this is just me being frank, but just being like, let the girl do what she does. No one has the idea, the audacity that someone can say to someone you have to be doing this or you cannot be doing this on any side of any political issue, I think is absurd, offensive and just wrong, it's like, I don't want her, and frankly, and this is just me too, I don't want any, I don't wanna Taylor Swift talking about war and famine and politics. I don't want them talking about it. I want them on a stage singing doing the thing that they do best because I will get my news and opinions from the news outlets and things that I trust and the facts that, you know what I mean? So like, what do you think about even her getting it from the left as well? Like it doesn't seem like she can win on either side. - That's completely true. So I wanna say two things about this. First I wanna talk about criticisms from the left and then I wanna talk about sort of this idea of the political television 'cause I think she's a lot more political than people give her credit for. So on the subject of criticism from the left, I think that there's some valid things, right? So for example, she won't release one vinyl version of her album, she'll release four different colors and special editions with different bonus songs on them and that drives up the vinyl sales, which her vinyl sales, like all of her sales, are just setting the industry standard and blowing everyone else out of the water, but it's not super environmentally responsible, right? To have people buying four albums when they could just buy one. I personally don't think it's great how much clout she gives the NFL, right? Like there's so much discourse about football dads being like, "Mama, they're showing Taylor Swift "for 13 seconds during my game." But actually I'm like, the NFL is the super problematic actor in this equation that they're not paying taxes and undervaluing cheerleaders and supporting violence against women and doing all sorts of horror, you know, traumatic brain injuries, all the terrible things the NFL does. I don't love that Taylor Swift is bringing her audience into that world and supporting that organization that I super disagree with. So I think there are valid things about her that you can thoughtfully criticize and I can thoughtfully criticize those things and still be a huge giant fan of Taylor Swift, right? Which is another way, you know, there's a discourse that, like, we'll switch these, we'll just tear you down if you try to insult anything she does. And it's like, okay, again, we're just insulting women now and just saying that we don't have the capacity to think through, like, and if you want to see an actual toxic fandom, like go to the DC Superman Batman fandom, go to the Star Wars fandom. The toxic fandoms are right there for you to see, but when they're full of men, they don't get talked about in the same way and are intelligence and salted in the same way. So there's that piece of it. In terms of her politics, though I would say, she likes to make a statement through her art. So for example, when she was, you know, there was a moment when sort of white supremacist Aryan Nation kinds of groups were holding her up as a poster girl and she was like, absolutely not. So in the lover video, this super romantic video, she casts her love interest as a black man who's one of her dancers that was with her for a long time and casts them as having a mixed race child at the end of the video, right? So she like, clearly it's like, no, no, no, no white supremacy here. Not a lot of people have talked about which shocked me in her Lavender Hayes video. Her love interest was a trans man, a trans activist, right? And like, she is using her art to make those promotions. She also does talk explicitly about some issues. So for example, a lot of people know she was groped, sexually assaulted by a DJ during an event, you know, 10 years ago, not sure exactly when. And she reported it, he was fired. He then sued her for getting him fired and she countersued for a symbolic $1. A lot of people think she sued him, but she didn't. And she went to court and, you know, this is while her mother was undergoing cancer treatments. She stands up and, you know, gives this unbelievable testimony where she stands up for herself and doesn't back down. She makes huge donations to reign and to the Times Up Legal Fund. The only interview she granted during the reputation era was to time in the person of the year issue to talk about that experience. And then on the reputation tour, she talks about what a life-changing experience that was and how it made her realize what life must be like for all these women who don't get bullied. And it's like, for me, that's an issue that's very close to my heart. I just written a novel about sexual assault survivor. And I don't, you know, when we're talking about role models, how many, you know, artists can you think of who talk publicly about having been assaulted and the process of being believed and going to court to talk about it and what that was like for them, right? That's an unbelievable role model to me. When Kesha was in court dealing with Dr. Luke and thought that she was gonna have to stop that lawsuit because she couldn't afford her legal bills, Taylor gave her a quarter of a million dollars and paid her legal bills, right? So in terms of her political activism, I think a lot of it is she tends to get labeled a certain way by people who haven't done their research and don't actually know that much about her and how deeply she's been involved in and financially supporting with her art, a lot of these causes that are dear to progressive. - It was during, I will say, I know the moment in which I, I mean, like I said, I'm not a fan of Taylor Swift, but I respect Taylor Swift. And the moment I became a respecter of Taylor Swift was during that lawsuit when she was sued by the DJ who lost his job and all of that. Just because that was a moment in which, for me, that a celebrity recognized their power, their worth, and it does have weight. It does have weight to it. And using that power for good, not for vanity, not for, she didn't get anything out of it. There wasn't, I mean, yeah, maybe she got a boost in a record sale or something, I don't know, but like, that wasn't the intent. The intent was just, this is the right thing to do. And I respect that. Do I think some, like Taylor Swift is, I think the smartest marketer out there, she has the best team, she knows how to manipulate the market in a way that is in her favor and she does it very, very well and she executed it very, very well. Can it sometimes be tacky and annoying? Sure, but she does. Oh my God, have you seen the TVD merch? It's terrible. I need, I need, like, I was like, when the red re-release came, how is there not a refrigerator shaped nightlight to reference dancing around the kitchen and the refrigerator light? I want that refrigerator nightlight. I want it in my kitchen, but she's not making it for me. But, you know, I do, of course, have the all too well snow globe. I do love that snow globe. But. (laughing) But you know, you see what I mean, yeah, totally. Movie stars make bad movies. Our favorite singers make bad albums. Like, that is art, that is okay, that is fine. No one needs to be perfect all the time. And this kind of, like, increasingly only one thing extremist internet culture, I think, encourages us not to see nuance and not to, like, let people have a bad day. But it's like, it's fine, make a tacky sweatshirt. Have a bad day. And, like, Taylor Swift, the artist and Taylor Swift kind of incorporated the apparatus around that artist is an intrinsically capitalist organization, right? And it's a super successful, very capitalist organization. - Which? - So, if you have criticisms of capitalism, you've got criticisms of continuous splits, and that's fine. - But also, too, and this is the conservative argument, if we want to talk about, sort of, you know, the prime example of what is a conservative belief, it is that the freedom of finance and economy and having a free market. And Taylor Swift is a friggin poster board for, or a billboard for, like, capitalism and, like, making money. - I mean, it really says something about how much conservatives hate women. If a self-made fucking billionaire is someone who's being called a bad role model, right? Because that is the epitome of a conservative value, just money, uber-allists, right? And I don't think that that's true for Taylor. I think that she's good at both making great art and being a really good person and making a ton of money. But, you know, that's, you know, great. Make a billion dollars. But if you're not a wife and mother, it doesn't count. Well, and there is something, too, what you've said previously, about how there are things that you can, and this is what I say oftentimes. There are things that you can say that you dislike about an artist, or you don't like about their opinions, or their politics, or their work, or whatever it is. You can have criticisms while at the same time enjoying the art. And I often say this, like, two things can be true at once. You know what I mean? That the art can be great and the politics can be bad. And sometimes the politics become so bad that it's hard to just support the art, you know, which that happens. Hey, P. Diddy. But, like, it becomes, you know, it becomes a problem. Those two worlds do sometimes come together. But in situations like this, where it's like, like I said, I don't care about Taylor Swift, but I respect her. So it's like, I can see the criticisms, but I also can be like, she's the biggest star in the world. Let her go out and sell a tour, and like, not be, not have the weight of a responsibility of something that the parents should be instilling. Not Taylor Swift's song. Like, that's ridiculous. That sounds ridiculous to me. - Well, and it's also right. People know that she's so popular that if you put her name in your mouth, whatever you say is automatically gonna have a broader reach. So if you write a column about how women ought to get married, who's printing that column? But if you make it about how Taylor Swift ought to get married, for better or for worse, we put that column out and a lot of people have read it, right? And so, and I think when you look at the other things that the column said that weren't even factual, right? Like it said that she leads her crowds in a chant of "Fuck the patriarchy." And it's like, nah dude, that's a song lyric about a thing a man said to her, calling out his hypocrisy for saying "Fuck the patriarchy" and espousing them in his values while treating women badly in his private life, which is something I'm sure many women can relate to having met men like that. And he talks about, sorry, I wrote it all down. He talks about her glamorizing serial dating and making breakup seem too easy, which it's like, tell me you've never listened to a Taylor Swift song without telling me you've never listened to a Taylor Swift song. Like this woman famously writes the most heart wrenching in the dark, damp, thick of it breakup songs of like any artist working today. So it's like, I think reading this column and seeing what it acts, there's no argument there. There's no there there, right? Like this isn't about actually criticizing Taylor Swift in any kind of substantive way. It's about elevating this totally retrograde misogynist ideology and making it go further by putting Taylor Swift's name on it. - We also too, one of the things that I think is, I mean, like I said before, I do think there's a space for, you know, an opinion piece that is not what we like, but also to a rebuttal to it. And we, at Newsweek as well, there was an amazing rebuttal. It came out I think today and it was, it was from a cute little seven-year-old talking about-- - Oh my gosh. - She, the title is, I'm a seven-year-old Swiftie. Here's why Taylor Swift is a role model for girls like me and it is adorable, I will send it to you. So what I love-- - Oh my gosh, I can't wait. - You're gonna love it. But what I love about this is that I do believe in having spaces where thoughts can be shared that maybe I don't like. I don't ever wanna live in a world in which something doesn't piss me off that I see. You know what I mean? Because I feel like sometimes being pissed off only makes me a better fan of somebody or have a deeper belief in the thing that I believe because this thing pissed me off so much that I read. You know what I mean? And so-- - Absolutely. - I value that, I value that. And that's something that I value about journalism and about media is that that is the space in which we can create those things that piss people off so that then the beliefs get deeper. But then there is a line of, well, we need to have a space to then say, well, I believe what you're saying is misogynistic or is whatever the case may be. And because Taylor is so huge, you're right. It becomes a space where it's almost not even about Taylor Swift anymore. It's just a-- - Of course it is then. - And it often rarely is in a lot of these conversations. It's just about, and the same can be said with Beyonce or any of these other massive artists right now. It isn't about them. It's about whatever thing that is creeping into people's minds that's haunting them and think that society is falling apart, you know? And it's not happening. (laughs) - No, and it's totally true. And one thing, so I worked for Hillary Clinton in 2016 as I know you and I have both worked for her. And one thing that was so interesting to me in working for her and an idea that I'm really interested in in general in my first novel with a lot about is this idea of women in the public space becoming this object that people project whatever onto, right? So whatever it is that you're angry about, that you are feeling positive about, right? Like in a lot of ways, you sort of take ownership over these women in a way that doesn't happen with men because men get to have their own agency and own their own lives in a way that women in the public sphere aren't often permitted to. And sort of the more famous you get, the bigger that target is that you can project anything onto. So I think you're totally bang on that's so much discourse about Taylor Swift, positive and negative, like has very little to do with who she actually is. As a person, and I think for those of us who've been longtime fans and seeing all these kind of recent people just saying whatever about her, it's like, oh my gosh, I need you to do your research and get in there and have a little bit of a deeper thing to say about her instead of just projecting whatever. - Also just be self-aware too. I mean, like I had this with Britney Spears too. I also don't care about Britney Spears and which, I mean, as a homosexual, that's a very controversial stage today. - I was gonna say that they just take, did you just become straight? - Yeah, I know. I know. At certain bars, I just become a pariah because I'm like, listen, I don't mind her. I just don't care about her. Like, I don't care about the music, it's not my thing, you know? All I know is, oops, I did it again and I think it's a problem. Like, I don't know. - That literally is you against the music. - It is me against the music. Yes, thank you. I know the one Madonna's long too. But that said, like, I also am like, well, let Britney be Brit. Like, I think there is a space in which, you know, you can, like, I always say this, that I love Lady Gaga, but I don't wanna go have brunch with her 'cause it would be the most insane, annoying brunch I think I've ever had in my life. Like, I would hate to have a conversation with Lady Gaga, but I would love to watch and listen to Lady Gaga. Like, that is-- - Absolutely! - That's how we separate the things. And I can respect Taylor Swift while also not caring about Taylor Swift. And with the conservative response to sort of Taylor Swift as a role model, one of the things that I find is helpful in how I navigate these waters with artists that I don't care about is when these things get bigger, I say, listen, I don't care about this person. I don't know their music. All I know is their social footprint and the impact they're having. And if we utilize that for hate, if we utilize that to spread misinformation, if we utilize those things to push our own political beliefs, I think that then is wrong. I think that then is like, that's a bad thing. When it's like, you can't utilize, have it be male or female, black or white, whatever the artist is, it's wrong to sort of co-opt the celebrity nature of this person and use it for your own benefit, you know? - Yeah, and I think when you actually are a part of the Taylor Swift fandom and are participating, you see things like there was a horrible thing that happened after one of her concerts last year where a young Swiftie was killed in a drunk driving accident coming home and the GoFundMe for that person's funeral and their family made the rounds through Swifties. I contributed, you know, tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars were raised for this kid's family 'cause that's like what the Swiftie fandom does 'cause it's what Taylor does, right? Like she had a fan with a woman with five kids whose husband died of COVID early during the pandemic and Taylor and she put up a GoFundMe with a goal of $50,000 to keep her family afloat after her husband died. Taylor and her mom just paid for it, right? Like I think about Love Story is one of my favorite songs and if you're listening to this, you probably know it, it's a retelling of the Romeo and Juliet story and I've always kind of felt that story is more powerful if you give it a queer narrative because it feels more relevant kind of to falling in love today and when your parents wouldn't approve and that kind of thing and there was this queer couple to women who that was their song and they loved that song and they said it spoke to how their families didn't support them in overcoming that and being together and on their wedding day, Taylor sent them flowers and just said it meant so much to her that Love Story was such a big part of their Love Story, right? So here's a person who kind of despite being this global lightning rod for all these ideas is at the end of the day, trying to be good to her fans, right? Being good to her people. There's this famous David Letterman clip from probably 10, 15 years ago where he says off-handedly, well, backup dancers don't have healthcare until he goes, my backup dancers do, right? She's had the same people in her band from the beginning. She's had the same backup singers for years, right? She is so loyal to people, that story that went viral about her giving a hundred thousand dollar bonus to every tracker on the era's tour, right? Like, she's good to her people, she's good to her fans, she's an unbelievable philanthropist. She really is leading by example in all of these different ways that to say she's not a good role model because she isn't married and doesn't have children. It's like, is Cory Booker a bad role model? Is Oprah a bad role model? - I know Oprah, I was just thinking that. Oprah, I mean, Oprah is, I mean, listen, you can talk about Oprah's politics all you want, but Oprah literally has like helped societies. Like, she's, she created a school. Like, if you create a school, I'm sorry, 'cause I'm buying bags, like, I'm buying bags and shoes. I'm not creating schools for people. So like, I'm donating to GoFunds and I'm buying my own shoes. Like, that's all I'm doing. And-- - That's right. - Oprah created a school, like, that is a role model. That is someone, she tells you to read books and she created a school. Like, that's big. - Like, Dolly Parton doesn't have any children. - Dolly! - She thinks she's a bad role model. - Dolly! - Get the fuck out of this country. You don't belong here, I'm sorry. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you. - I don't believe in citizenship tests. It's strong, we don't believe in it. But like, if you don't care for Dolly Parton, I'm sorry. - I'm sorry, I'm sorry for you. - I'm sorry, I just, that's a line I won't cross. Yeah, Dolly, and Dolly, I mean, we haven't seen Dolly's husband for like 40 years, so, you know. - I mean, they live separately. - Yeah, I just learned, which is one power move. 'Cause for her. - I love that. That's very free to call, I mean, she did that too. Like, listen, separate beds, you'll get a good night's sleep. You will. - That's right. - Full eight hours. And that's important. (laughing) Kate, it was fantastic chatting with you. We will have you back on when your next book comes out. Tell me what it is about and when it can be out for people to buy. - Oh my gosh, my pelvis is gonna be so excited. So my second novel is called Fang Fiction. It is out October 1st, which is my birthday. It is a novel about a woman who discovers that the world of her favorite vampire novels is a real place and she's asked to go there to save the sexy villain of the series. So it's basically imagined discovering that this fantasy world you've been obsessed with for years is real and you get to visit it. But like one cat, it's an island full of bloodthirsty vampires who haven't had a drop to drink in 10 years and she's the first woman. And then obviously she falls in love with one of the vampires. So it's a fun adventure story with hopefully some good feminist values peppered in there as well. - How much would you die if the book was made into a movie? First off, let's just say that, but then also Taylor Swift did the song for it. Would you exist on the planet anymore? - I mean, I don't know, like you were on Zoom, so you just like my soul physically left my body just imagining it. (laughing) - Like the same way that you say you wouldn't want to have lunch with Lady Gaga. Like I have no interest in interacting with Taylor as a fan. I'm like she has brought so much joy to my life for so many years. Like let her exist in her artist space, let me exist in my fan space and never the twain shall meet. But if we got to collaborate on a project, I mean, oh my God, speak it into the universe. - Where can people follow you on social media, Kate? - I am @KateStathamLondon on Instagram and @authorKateStathamLondon on TikTok and a thing that I'm on now. So yeah, exciting times. - Wonderful. Thanks so much for chatting with me today. - Thank you. And I mean this so sincerely, so much for us. (laughing) - And thank you for listening to today's episode. What do you think? Is Taylor Swift a good role model? Let me know on social media. I'm H. Allen Scott on everything. And of course, go to newsweek.com for all the things that you need. Plus even more podcasts from newsweek.com. You can also subscribe to my newsletter for the culture. It comes out every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. It's really fun and entertainment, fun stuff. Less politics and more fun, you'll love it. And do me a favor and rate and review this podcast wherever you're listening to it. In the meantime, watch something fun. Listen to Taylor Swift, maybe or don't. I mean, if you don't like her, I don't know. Listen, do what you're gonna do. I don't listen to music. I watch news, that's all I do. But watch something fun and have a great day. (upbeat music) You
