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You know, you don't have to have diabetes forever. We still get very angry calls from the doctors out here for quote unquote fixing their patients. I had a doctor call me on the phone and screaming y'all at me for reversing her patient's fatty liver. When she finally calmed down, I said, you know, what is it that you're really upset about? And at the end of the day, she actually said to me, this patient is not going to need to see me anymore. I'm happy to have Dr. Nishita here all the way from Oahu. I assume you're in Oahu. I think you're there if I looked up where you're at. You're on the North Shore. Hawaii. Is that right? No, not the North Shore. I'm right in Honolulu. You're in Honolulu. Okay. I saw something from Kailua or something. I saw something attached to your name. Oh, that's where our office is located. Oh, okay. That's why. Okay. Yeah, because then I've been to Oahu a few times in real pretty place. That's a beautiful part of the world. You are correct if I'm wrong, but you have a pharmacy, pharmaceutical doctor, and you have a techetedgenic metabolic therapy practice. Is that fair to say? Or maybe you just tell it, tell us your background if you don't mind. Yeah, I do. So I was a pharmacist for, I don't know, solid 10 years. And then at that time, I actually became a single parent. And one of my friends actually convinced me to go into big pharma. And I actually thought you and I maybe should talk about that a little bit today. I hear viewers will find that interesting, but did that for about 14 years and then just got sick of all that stupidity really. I don't know what that award is for when you mean when you say convince you to go into big pharma as a pharmacist. What does that mean? Because as a pharmacist, you work terrible hours. You work rotating shifts. It's a very stressful, miserable job. Honestly, I don't know how a lot of people can say in pharmacy as long as they do, especially in retail pharmacy. You're like standing all day. You're just counting pills all day. No one's feeling well, everyone's wondering why their prescriptions taking so long. There's all these factors that you have to deal with. And because I was a single parent, and I had, I didn't have help with my kids at the time. It just, it was too hard for me. So my girlfriend was a drug rep, basically. And she's, dude, you should do this. You make your own hours. You'll have a much easier time. They'll hire you in a second. You have the personality for it. And I actually initially wanted to speak to that. So I was in pharmaceutical sales for a while. And selling to what physicians or who are you selling to? And the chronologist primarily because I sold insulin and primary care physicians. Yeah, so diabetes was the disease state that I was working in. And this is all in Hawaii or where was that? All in Hawaii. How bad is diabetes in Hawaii? I imagine some of the like the native Hawaiians probably are disproportionately affected by it would be my guess. Maybe I'm wrong on that. But how, where do you see that? It's terrible. Our rate of the European prediabetes into that is over 60% of our population. The whole population of Japan, not Japan, of Hawaii. I know there's a lot of Japanese immigrants there. I know as a Native Americans, there's a lot of Caucasians and stuff like that. But across the board 60% prediabetic. Prediabetes and diabetes. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. We eat a lot of rice out here. Native Hawaiians like tarot and poi. I don't know if you tried that when you were out here. At some point, I probably tried some of that stuff. I didn't. I don't think I enjoyed it that much. That was okay. But yeah. Huge diabetes rates. You mentioned eating a lot of rice because every said, look at the people in Asia, they eat all this rice and they're all thin and stuff like that. But in reality is, and there's actually studies that have shown this that certain populations in Asia, rice consumption is directly related to diabetes. We see that. In particular, they eat larger and larger. But I've eat a small little amount, which is sometimes the case. And I think one of the reasons why we have such relatively lean populations in Eastern Asian areas is because this, the overall consumption of food is lower per capita. A lot smaller portions. Yeah. They're not in America. We're very gluttonous. Yeah. Yeah. It's gross. We're gluttonous. And in Asia, they walk everywhere. There's a lot of public transportation trains, some ways, buses, and they walk. So in America, we have this problem eating too much. We're gluttonous. We're eating all the wrong things. And we're sedentary. And it's not like that there. Yeah. I think you made a couple points. Certainly our food is designed to be over consumed. It's literally engineered to be addictive and hyper-palatable and we over consume it. And then most American cities, because we have so much space, it's like, we've got these huge vast highways. And it's impractical to walk to the grocery store. For me, in the nearest grocery store to my house, is five or six miles. And I could do it, but then you got to add in an extra three hours to your day just to walk and get groceries. Whereas if you live in a, like I say, European city or maybe it's sitting in Asia where you can walk 10 minutes, they're here about all these little 10-minute, 15-minute trips. And whenever we go overseas and we go on vacation, I walk like crazy. Sometimes when I'm in California on the beach, I'll just go, I'll go walk all the time. But yeah, walking, I think that's a huge part of it, for sure. Outside of this nutrition, there's a lot of their lifestyle things. So I guess, so you were selling drugs, selling insulin to docs, you got this huge diet, but it's interesting to see that the more pharmaceutical drugs that are developed for diseases, the disease rates don't go down anyway. And it's not like the disease circle. They just go more. We've got more drugs, but we've got more disease. It's not like the drugs are actually curing the disease. It's just perpetuating this sort of disease management model that came into Vogue about 25 years ago. I remember when I first heard that term, it was disease management. As a physician, I hadn't heard that term before and I said, "What is disease management?" Oh, you mean you just keep people chronically medicated. And that's where we are as a healthcare system. And so it's a huge business. And I would imagine as a pharmaceutical rep, you might even make more money than you did as a pharmacist. I don't know. Something gets paid really well. Depending what area you're in, some of these reps are making two, three, four, five hundred thousand dollars a year. It's a cushy life. I'm going to tell you that. It's very interesting because I basically had gone over to the dark side, right? And I'm not, I'm not proud of it per se. I do what I have to do at the time for my kids and just scheduling and that type of thing. But I will say that my time in there taught me a lot of really valuable people skills and communication skills that I have to use every day in my medical practice now with patients. It's interesting. So it did help me accumulate a certain skill set that I have to use with my patients now in my practice. Yeah, I remember the pharmaceutical reps. Some were my friends. I'd work out with them. In orthopedics, we had equipment reps basically, or cell mass implants and stuff like that. These little fracture plates you put in are prosthetic joints and they're good guys. Like XnFL athletes, orthopedics, he-man, masculine testosterone specialty in general. I'm just exceptions. So most of my friends, they're good people. But yeah, they have to be in general pharmaceutical reps are relatively attractive, fit, physically, pairing people with good personalities. And that's what they cultivate. So it's a sort of get you to be persuasive in a way. And again, there's obviously, and I know some of those equipment reps were making as much or more money. I was making as a surgeon, which is damn, and now you're doing a standard. And you've got very little liability. I got all, I'm the guy with all the risks. You're taking the liability because I'm operating in the face. You're just standing there telling me to use that size screw or something. So it is, it is a, it's an interesting situation there. At what point did you, I assume you said hey, this is, I'm not maybe not ethically aligned with it. Was there a point when you said this is just not the right thing for me to be doing? Yes, it was starting in about 2014. And it was interesting because right around that time, a very close family member had a heart attack. And I don't know if you know this, but out here in Hawaii, we have Shriners Hospital for Children. Yeah, the pediatric neurologist there, actually, they do keto for the kids that go there with epilepsy, with autism, they do keto in these kids. And it was one of his colleagues that told me, you should put your family member on keto. He had a heart attack, what? And I was like, what's keto? And he's, you should research it. And that just, I went down that rabbit hole, it catapulted me into where I am now. And as I was learning about just cutting back on carbs and that whole thing, I was like, is it just me? Does this make complete sense? What? It just, all these light bulbs started going off. I started remembering a lot of things we learned back in pharmacies. And I was like, oh my God, I think we're practicing medicine backwards. And so my practice now in Hawaii has been open for five years. So I've seen 3,000 patients in five years. Okay. What kind of, as a pharmacist, I think you said your partner with, I looked at your website, your partner with a cardiologist, I think, and maybe an oncologist or something I saw. And so what kind of, how are you, what kind of patients are you attracting there? And what are you guys doing and how are the results seem to be? Yeah. So my partner, Dr. Marcarin, she's an interventional cardiologist and she's a deal. So she definitely is into looking at the whole patient and that type of thing. Most of my patients, actually, I would say half come off of social media and just seeing a poster too that I've done just talking about, you don't have to have diabetes forever or, and we, I see everything from head to toe. I'm seeing cancer. I'm seeing Alzheimer's. I'm seeing epilepsy and little kids. Diabetes, of course, because so many people have it. Heart attack, strokes, autoimmune conditions, hormonal imbalances, you name it. Everything walks through our door. And my job is to basically tailor. We do keto, keto, or carnivore, basically. I let the patient decide how they want to start. I eventually get everyone over to really more of a carnivore lifestyle at some point. But a lot of people initially, I think, is have a little bit of a tough time letting go all of their vegetables. That's very scary for a lot of people. Well, I never, vegetables, I never lie, I had no problem. It's a vegetable personally, but some of the other, say fruit or whatever, some sort of crunchy foods or whatever they like to eat. But yeah, sure. Okay. So you have this spectrum of things you get people to do. And how hard is it to do in Hawaii, by the way? I know they got grass finished beef out there and they've got, I guess you can't eat those chickens that are running around. No, we have access. We have farms out here that are really good. Yeah. So we, we have everything we need to do this. What's interesting, though, is I still, to this day, the law, in order for me to build someone's insurance for all of our appointments, that's why I have to partner with an MD. Okay. So for now, that's how our laws are written. Otherwise, I'd just probably be doing this on my own. And for me, it's important to accept insurance just so that I can also help Medicare, Medicaid, TriCare patients. So that's just my model for now. But it's interesting because we still get very angry calls from the doctors out here for quote unquote fixing their patients. I'm still to this day dealing with some of that. Sure. Injury because you're feeding them meat and you're going to raise their cholesterol. Are they angry because they, when you fix them and you say, hey, look, they're, they don't want to have diabetes. They no longer have this auto-immune issue. They're no longer requiring as much of your service. Are they mad about that? Or you think it's just, I think you're harming them. They're mad about that. I had a doctor call me on the phone and screaming y'all at me for reversing her patient's fatty liver. And when she finally calmed down, I said, what is it that you're really upset about? And at the end of the day, she actually said to me, this patient is not going to need to see me anymore. You took this patient away from me. And I was like, but this aren't me supposed to be helping the patient. And she actually said, no. And I was really shocked. It should have been interesting to see that. Yeah. And we don't have a single endocrinologist out here that refers their diabetes patients to us. Only one on colleges out here will refer their cancer patients to us. And that's terrible, in my opinion. Because at that point, you're signoring so much of the data and the information that's out there. And still, it's just not accepted. Obviously, you've seen 3,000 some patients. So somebody's coming out. Somebody's coming to see you guys, for sure. Yeah. So it's not physician referrals by any means. It's patients, the story that they've heard the information, they've seen things on social media or YouTube. Intuitively, they know. I want to try this. This sounds like the right thing. I'm sick and tired of medications. She's saying that she can help get me off of some of these medications. These are the people that will fear our door. Yeah. And I see it too. I'm clearly, I came from a practice where I was doing orthopedics, which there was literally zero interest in orthopedics and nutrition for the most part. You look at all the textbooks and they might talk a little bit about vitamin D and calcium in the context of a fracture. But in general, nutrition is largely completely ignored by my specialty. And when I started getting excited about this, there was no level of interest, no level of resource. When you think about the resources I had as a surgeon to do a surgical procedure, I had literally millions of dollars of facility and personnel at my disposal. So I could do these procedures. But if I wanted to do a research or a lifestyle intervention, nothing. It was nothing. Here, go watch this video, here, read this book. That's it. There's no coaching, no support. There's no meetings. There's no physician de-prescribing. There's no coaching. There's no training, which I had to build in order to create that that resource for people to utilize. Yeah, I see that. And I continue to see on a daily basis, both within my own interaction with the people we take care of and our company and what I see on social media, an enormous number of people that are coming off medications. And many of the physicians are becoming superfluous. And they're becoming like, I don't need you anymore. Again, you figure out as a physician, you go to school, you go to medical school, your four years of undergraduate, four years of medical school. In my case, five years of surgical training, it's 13 years I've invested in this. And then all of a sudden you're like, no one needs me now. It's annoying. What the hell? What did I do? Right. And I think that probably, if we were to actually feed ourselves and practice lifestyle, probably 75% of the physicians would no longer be needed. We just wouldn't need as much. Because right now, what length of time would that take? There's the population in general, I think is so unhealthy. Now I take a lot of years before there was no business last. It would probably take a decade or two, I think, to make that transition. Now, the finance, the financial incentives are hard because there's a multi trillion dollar industries or industries that are dependent upon this chronic chronic disease, sickness, garbage nutrition, and then the pills to manage the symptoms. And I think that to transfer that wealth into another sector is what would have to happen. And so you'd have to show how can someone else benefit. And what I look at is I look at all these other industries and say, look, you've got, if you're spending, I don't know, 30% of your expenditures are on employee health care, which is very probably realistic for many companies. And now you can cut that in half or even cut it by 80%. How much more productive could you be? How much more profitable could you be as a company? And then you start aligning those industries against the health care sector, and not in my guess, in someone who just, we shouldn't have our GDP should not be 20% health care or whatever it is in this country. We should not be investing $4.5 trillion in health care and most of that chronic disease. That is a waste. We're not, we're incredibly inefficient at delivering health care and delivering results of health care, because we're not even in the top 10. And we spend by far more than anybody. I think we're like 30th in the world in health care outcomes, low in jeopardy now, we're going down. And I think enough people are getting frustrated, which is interesting. There's every you and me, there are thousands more physicians are waking up to this stuff and finally figuring out that, hey, I got to get out of this corporate medicine nonsense, which has not got the patient's best interest in mine. It's got the shareholder stockhold was interest in mine. And so that's where we're at. Exactly. You found a couple of the physicians to partner with you. How did they find you? Did you find them? How did that eventually? Was it something like you were at a meeting or how did you find these people are like keto friendly on in Hawaii? Interesting is the first doctor that I was paired with when I first started doing this in 2019 was a GI doctor. And I was excited. That's perfect, great gut health, keto, you know, this is going to be great. And it was good in the beginning until COVID hit. And he could no longer he couldn't do colonoscopies for a little while. And so the way it works is we bill your insurance, the insurance deposits, mind checks, let's see you and I are partnered. They're going to deposit my chest into your bank account. And then you have to cut me a chat for whatever my portion was. He stopped doing that. And he stole $80,000 from me in a very short amount of time. And that was my first experience doing this being partnered with this guy. And so it was the cardiologist who I had known for over 10 years. She was my dad's cardiologist. I called on her in the past for a little while. I would refer patients to her. She had started actually referring patients to me to learn how to eat right. And so I basically went to her and I said, this is what's going on. If I don't find a new partner, I'm going to have to shut my practice down. And I don't want to do that because it's working. I'm helping a lot of people. And she basically rescued me. And it's nice because 90% of our patients will do a baseline, they'll do baseline cardiac testing. So they'll do a treadmill, they'll do an echo, especially if they've never had it done. And we have them repeat testing every single year. And I just did a ground round presentations on some of our data that's coming out of our clinic where we looked at the keto patients and we looked at annual echoes and treadmills versus a subset of her patients that are not doing keto. And everyone has diabetes. Of course, my subset didn't have diabetes anymore. And we were seeing, we're seeing reversal of left ventricular hypertrophy, increased ejection fractions, diastolic dysfunction is being reversed. Everything from atrial enlargement to I've had complete reversal of a huge abdominal aortic aneurysm. But in the control population that did not change their eating, everyone got worse. And I use this data to show that LDL, it doesn't matters if you have high blood sugar. But if you're eating right and you're consuming the right things, you can be running around with an LDL of 190 or 220 or whatever. And if your triglycerides to HDL ratio looks great, you are not your heart and your cardiovascular system is not worsening. And that was one of the whole points of me putting this data together. Because I do get a lot of flak on lean mass hyper responders. I'm a lean mass hyper responder. A subset of patients at doing keto and carnivore, their LDL does go up, right? Because their body is basically just pumping out more fuel, but their triglycerides might be 40 and their HDL is 90. Does this mean they're going to have a heart attack or show? No. So because of how our practices set up, I think we're the only cardiologist keto doctor pair in the world right now. This is the kind of stuff that we're collecting. And so it's nice. It's good. It's particularly interesting. The objective echo cardiography data showing the improved ejection fraction, which I've seen a number of people whether EF was 30 CHF guys. And now it's in the fifties and sixties back towards normal. Well, you've seen the reduction in ventricular hypertrophy, which is pretty cool. That's really neat. That's really interesting. Hopefully you guys get a chance to publish some of that stuff because I think that would be a quite powerful data. And we're getting more and more of that. And I know with a lean mass hyper responder data that Matt Rudolph is currently doing at UCLA. That's interesting. It's interesting stuff. And I think we're going to see more and more of this nuance around there. And honestly, the skeptic or the cynic in me, the conspiracy theorists in me is what I see is I think we're going to see a sort of an adoption of a more metabolic approach to cardiovascular disease. Only because the fact that now they have these like GLP one drugs, which they're going to start crowing about the cardiovascular benefit of these drugs. And they're going to copy probably like soft pedal and back pedal a little bit on the LDL lowering stuff because they've already made their money. They've made their trillion dollars on statins. They're now off pat now. They still make a couple billion a year. They still making money on it. But it's not the big money. Which they can get out of the GLP one. So they're going to be pushing the GLP one is pretty hard for cardi protective benefit. You know, the stuff you could the same things you could do with a low carb diet basically without cost and without the side effects. And so I think that's what we're going to see. I think we're going to see that there's going to be more nuance. But it's like everybody needs to be on a GLP one now for cardi protective or some version of whatever they're going to develop another drug that has some similar cardi protective things. I think it'll still be concrete and based. And but we'll see how that goes. That's my prediction because I'm I predict on where's the money who's going to benefit the most from this financially. And that's probably a year. That's pretty safe bet in many ways. But the cardiologist. So it is unusual. And I know there are a number of cardiologists that are now keto, carnivore, friendlies. There's some out there. There's more. There's a handful, not a lot. But how did that person come to the decision that hey, this is okay to put people on a diet of all this horrible saturated fat. And I'm saying that quote, Sarah, but see it. How did he or she? I'm not sure who the doctor is. Come to that decision, you know, she actually is the only doctor that visited my former practice location, sat down with me for an hour and asked me to show her all of my handouts and exactly what I teach patients. And after she did that, she realized that it's not at all what she thought it was going to be. It's we call it dirty keto, right? It starts me nuts. Like social music, you know, dirty keto where she people assume that all I'm doing is telling your patient to eat bacon all day and pork rinds all day and a bunch of salami and cheese. And that's not at all what I'm saying to eat. And so once she saw that with her own eyes, it really like a light bulb, I think, an offer her. And she then just felt very comfortable that, Hey, you know what? This makes sense. She herself is probably 90% keto on any given day. I don't think she's fully carnivore yet. It's funny because she's actually 65 years old. And she and I agree to disagree about statins and LDL. And even though she's my personal physician too, my LDL has been 190 for almost eight years now. And we do my cardiac testing every single year. And all we've done is see improvement in all of my testing year over year and all of my patients. But I think it's hard for them to let go. It's interesting because I asked her when they said why you've seen all of this in our own practice. And just to be clear, she does not refer all her patients to me. I just, I'm able to get a lot of patients walking in through the door themselves without her having to send all her patients over. But when I asked her why she just can't let go of the LDL statin narrative, because she's done stand since she's seen heart attack victims. It's, she says, when you cut them open, when you see the plaque and you see how much cholesterol that plaque is comprised of, she was, you can't tell me that the LDL is not causing that. And I tried to talk to her about its sugar that makes the LDL particles smaller and sticky. It's not the LDL that's causing the initial plaque buildup. We, I have talked to her about this, but I think because of what she's seen and because she's done things a certain way for so long, she just, she can't move away from that. So it's interesting because she's okay with what I do. She knows the benefits. She pretty much does it herself. She still has this knee jerk reaction of, oh, this person's got an LDL over 100. We're going to put them on the statin. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that when the vast majority of people eating a metabolically unhealthy diet, having elevated cholesterol in that setting probably, the confluence of those factors probably is leading to increased heart cardiovascular disease. But then again, what happens if you improve the metabolic health to the degree, the way we have this lean mass hyper responder phenomenon that Dave Feldman and Matt Budoff have interestingly demonstrated. And I think that's still, in my view, it raises a lot of nuance around this topic. Like I said, if you were to say, if I can make someone's LDL cholesterol zero, they're not likely to have heart disease. I think that's true. I think that's true. However, it's a lot of problems with that approach as well. It's like I said, if I didn't want to have, like I said, if I was worried about having glaucoma, and I said, let's cut your eyes out and you won't have to worry about glaucoma. Yeah, you're not going to have glaucoma, but there may be some negatives associated with that. So it's one of those sort of scenarios where these people, there are cardiologists at one are LDL cholesterol 20 milligrams per deciliter, some ridiculously low that's never here to form and known to exist in human beings outside of a newborn infant. And a lot of them say newborn infants are the only ones that have normal cholesterol. And I'm like, as soon as you start breastfeeding, there's a nice study on this 13 by 13 weeks of breastfeeding their LDL, their total cholesterol is above 200. And you're like, are you saying now that breastfeeding is killing infants? That doesn't make sense. This is a physiologically appropriate number. And you probably see, I don't know how long you're in the pharmaceutical and selling industry, but there was a period of time when 300 LDL, 300 total cholesterol was considered, hey, that's normal range. That was 240. That was 200 knots 190. They keep bringing the number down and down because never made a difference. And they're like, it's got to keep going in lower and lower. And I think it has consequences. Obviously, there's more studies to come when we'll see it when once Rudolph releases the one year data, which hopefully before it's coming, because I know it's done. They've got it. They're just haven't released it yet. One of the interesting things that I have heard through the grapevine, and it's not official, and it's not been published yet, but there are people within that lean mass hyper responder cohort that did have some plaque, but it's actually reversed, which would be quite an interesting thing. If it turns out to be true, I can't like I said, it's all rumors. Apparently, there's some of the patients have leaked their own data and said, look, I had whatever a little bit of plaque in my arteries and I've gone away after another year, 600 LDL or something like that. So we'll see what that shows. And now that hopefully will continue to make people start to realize there's more nuance here and questions, some of that, some of the, sort of the narrative, because when I went to medical school back in the late 1980s, 1989, when I first started medical school, I could remember hearing family practice physicians, this is when statins were just starting to come out, right? This is late 80s. They were literally talking about putting it in water back then, which should be in the water for everybody. This is what this was a narrative. Oh, every cholesterol is too high, we need to bring it down across the population, and it'll save the day. And statistically, I think from the 1970s versus around 2000 or so, we brought LDL cholesterol average from our total cholesterol down from 220 to 200. So 20 point, which is a huge reduction on population scale. And it did nothing for heart disease, nothing. So it's like, what are we doing here? So you've got now you've got to use it cancer, because that's a very controversial topic. Oh my God, for some reason we have this cancer, there's this, it's its own entity that if you talk about cancer, anything but nuclear radiation, bombing it, cutting it out chemotherapy, your desk, your quack, your nut job. I think that nutrition helps. I think I don't care what the condition is. I don't care if it's a, I don't care if it's cerebral palsy. Good nutrition is going to help you. Right. What are your, what's your experience? Because you have a, you now have an oncologist that I think is attached to you. Yeah. Tell me a little of that. Tell me about the cancer stuff. So very interestingly, the island of Maui. So we do have an office location on Maui too. And that's where the oncologist is located. And Hawaii as a state was initially a lot of sugar plantations, pineapple plantations. That was how all of the Asians came over was to work plantations. Right. And because everything was just so heavily sprayed for so many decades, Maui has this incredibly high cancer rate, just every type of cancer from head to toe. And so her practice is booming. She just can't stop turning people away. And what she knows to her own training, whatever that was over the course of her lifetime. And she used to work, I think in California, and then came over to Hawaii was that if you can get people into ptosis, not only can you prevent the return of cancer, their chemotherapy is going to work better, meaning you can have a patient on lower doses, fewer treatments, and with a lot less side effects. And we do see that in the patients that we see together. I do have a very small subset of her patients that want to try this first before making a final decision about chemo and radiation. And it really just is about supporting them in that way, teaching them about all the different types of proteins. Do you get this, Sean? Like, I might say a final statement, okay, I need you to eat, start to eat more protein, because we cut back on your crops, I need you to eat more protein, and I get a blank stare. Like, what? The people don't even know anymore what protein is. And you know, what I have to do with some people is their homework is I need you to go to the grocery store this weekend. I literally need you to stand in the meat department, now I'm asking you to look at every different cut of red meat, pork, I want you to read labels, I want you to look at weights, I want you to know what eight ounces of steak looks like, what 12 ounces of pork looks like, because most people have never really taken the time to do this. A lot of people don't even know how to cook anymore, right? And so it's just, it's interesting. And so we are just getting a lot of good results in terms of, we get a lot of patients that have a history of cancer, and now want to do this to prevent the return. We, it's Otto Warburg sugar feeds cancer, and people don't realize how many different types of foods actually turn into sugar. And just that initial part of their education is very eye-opening for them. Yeah, certainly, certainly my experience is similar in the, like I said, I don't directly treat cancer, but I've had a lot of patients that have undergone cancer treatments. And when they adopt a ketogenic or carnivore diet, pretty much the experience has been, the therapy has been much better tolerated. They have way less side effects, they feel better. And so even if you decide to use it as an adjuvant or an adjunct therapy rather, it's beneficial in many ways. And you don't have to deal with the cancer, cacxia as much. It's just, like I said, I know there are people to use as a standalone therapy, and there's clinics that are dedicated to doing that, and they've had some pretty interesting results. But as far as, as far as, like I said, any condition in which you can improve the overall nutrition of the patient, you're going to improve the outcome. I don't care if it's healing up from total knee replacement or cancer therapy or Tourette syndrome or bipolar disorder, or whatever it might be, it's so incredibly important. And there are, with regard to ketogenic therapies, there have been a number of studies now starting to look at particular certain times, can't like brain cancer has got a couple of studies published on that. And they're showing that there is clearly some benefit there. But if you look at most of the oncology literature, much of it will support plant-based diet. It's based on assumptions based on associational epidemiological data, which is just horrible. It's horrible data. It's not, it's just poor quality research. And so we start getting the RCTs and the other things that cost a lot of money, you know, wants to pay for because there's no profit in it. And you get, you can RCT to death all the drug trials. It's got billion dollar budgets where they can do these long extended trials. Exactly. With the pay always, you work in the company, there's a lot of money. So it's hard to get this data out there. How much money it's, you can't wrap your head around it. Yeah. This is a thing is that I think people don't realize what a nutritional deficit they're running in, running on a daily basis, you know, before they start working with people like you and I, they're just so nutrient deficient. And to start to eat in a way that is nutrient dense in and of itself is going to be so beneficial for your body. How long have you been doing carnivore? I am approaching my eighth year. I've done it seven and a half, a little over seven and a half. I started in the end of 2016 is when I started. So we're almost, you know, a second and a half of 2024. So almost eight years. Okay. So saying, so I'm coming up on my year as well. And I don't know. I want to ask you a question. So I do a little broccoli here and there, a little bok choy here and there, definitely not on a daily basis. Can I even call myself carnivore at that point? Or no, because I wasn't sure. You would, again, there's a lot of nuances. I have e nine percent of my diet without exaggeration is red meat or eggs or seafood or sometimes a little bit of dairy products. That is my diet for the whole time. Now there have been a few times when I've had something off the plan, but I don't really, it's not, I think it's less important to worry about what you label yourself as. It's what do you do on a daily basis? What's your typical pattern? What do you do for the vast majority of time? And that's what we're really concerned about because the truth be told when there's a lot of things that we are exposed to, just pollution in the air in Hawaii, probably nicer than other places because you got the sea breezes and all that stuff. But it's just there's always going to be something that is going to be less than optimal that you just have to deal with. And I think that I just try not to be religious about this whole thing. There's some people that are like, Oh my God, if you eat a blueberry, you're now kicked out of the club and you're an awful, it's not like reverse veganism where it's it's ideologically, Oh my God, you ate an egg. How could you dare do something like that? And you're like an awful person. I don't really care that much about it. For all intents and purposes, I am about a strict of a carnivore is realistically possible. And I think that's, I think that's fair enough. If you have, I don't know what would attract you to broccoli because I don't like it, but if you have a piece every once in a while, what is your dietary pattern in general? And if it is meat, eggs, fish, dairy products, and then you are essentially, you know, a car on a carnivore diet with and to be honest, I think most people that do it will occasionally include something else in there. And there's no award for being who can it's not a purity test or anything like this. It's about how do you get healthy? How do you stay healthy? What are the things that are working for you? And and what can you sustain? And if you if you've got those things that are working for you, then I don't worry about what you call yourself. I often put up, I'm doing these athletic things, I'm saying this was today, I had this steak fueled me to do this. And this is what I did. And that's usually what I eat. And so I don't get too worried about what other people eat to be honest. Okay. Yeah, I was just wondering, because I do have people ask me when I'm like, there's a spectrum and on any given day, I'm falling somewhere on this spectrum. But on my worst day, I'm keto. You know what I mean? But it's like you said, in my five years of doing this as a as an actual medical practice, there are so many nuances. And in women, if they're going through perimenopause, postmenopause somewhere in that range, it things have to be tweaked a lot for them. At times, men, my nail patients, I have a much easier time with. These are the guys that I'm like, do straight carnivore, steak, eggs, real butter, that type of thing. And they do very well on it very quickly. And women are just seems to be a lot more nuances. We're typically much more homominally complex. And it's not something that when I first started doing this almost eight years ago, I was trying to learn how to do it myself. There weren't a lot of like keto doctors or carnivore doctors out in practice back then, right? So I had no one that I could go to. And I completely did it wrong. And it was based on things that I was saying off of social media. So think back eight years ago on social media, what was being posted at the time. Like I, for some reason, I ended up eating a lot of salami and cheese, not every day, but a lot more than I was before. My knee blew up. It was huge. And the orthopedic surgeon told me, you go. And I was like, I don't have a go. You didn't even check my urine galset. How do you want to go? And he was eating a go. But I think, and I didn't have gals, but I think because I was eating so much crappy gary and just nitrites, nitrates through the salami, I don't know. Like my body did not like it, but that's not how you do this lifestyle anyway. And so it's just interesting how things have evolved and the information has evolved over the years. And you're right. I just hope more and more doctors jump on this, jump on board. What state are you in? I don't even know. I currently live in Washington state. Okay. And what's the consensus out there? The consensus on nutrition or? Well, just on on your lifestyle and using it. I mean, I don't, I'm not hanging out in the local medical community. I'm pretty much doing stuff digitally. So I suspect it's like the same everywhere else. A vast majority of people are bought into the corporate medicine narrative. And that's probably what 98% of the physicians believe. We do have, in fact, there are hacks. I had one of them come over to my house, a physician locally that's practicing carnivore. So there are, like I said, a subset, a small subject, probably, I don't know, one out of a thousand doctors here, probably does keto or carnival or something like that. I think those numbers are growing. Clearly they are. I've seen, in fact, for our company, we have something like 200 physicians, like on our waiting list to come work with us because we know there's a lot of physicians that are interested in just practicing in a different way. They're just fed up with the bureaucracy, the administration's nonsense, the sort of algorithmic based medicine, they want to be able to actually help people instead of just to give them another pill. So we're seeing a ship for sure. So I, like I said, it's probably several years away that we've got that. But I think there's a threshold point once we get enough people on board and it's got to be, it's going to be grassroots. There's no top down. You're not going to have the next president. You have to say, Hey, everybody, we need to stop eating all this ultra process crap and eat more meat and eggs. That's not going to happen. Maybe I'll get surprised. I don't think so though. And certainly not any corporation is going to lose money on that. It's going to get up there, promote that. So we've got to, we've got to push it from the grassroots level. And social media is very important for this. And that's why I talk to everybody that says, Hey, if you've seen some benefit, there's a shared information. You don't have to be, you don't have to be religious about it. But to say, look, this is what worked for me. It might be something you consider to go check out these particular bits of information. And that's how we continue to grow it in a very, because it is growing. There's no doubt about it. From when I started, when the first time I was on Rogan back in 2017, versus today, it is multiple orders of magnitude better. It is hundreds, 100 X 1000 X from what it was back then. And it's still growing, it's still growing strong, because you can see how much backlash is now being put out there, every on social media, they're trying to make a living by criticizing it. Yeah, this is a hot topic. I'll let you know, it's like everybody, there's if it's interesting, someone's going to credit, somebody's going to criticize. And somebody's going to pro, pro, somebody's going to be against. And if it was insignificant and inconsequential, no one will be talking about it. But because so many people are now doing an experience and these positive results, there's a lot of people that have opinions on it. And like I said, I'm just here like saying, hey, this is a potential option for people. Consider it. Yeah. And why not? You know, what's the downside? People are talking, we don't have long term research data on this. I'm like, well, you put people on these drugs, which don't have 20 year data, you got maybe three or three year trial or something like that in a very controlled setting. And you're going to release some of the general population without any long term data. And we're happy to do that all day long. These positions are where do I sign up? Let me write that. Let me write the thing. When you're going to take me to my, I don't know, when I was when I was working, I know that the various, we would have some drug reps come in there selling us and fire ox and celibrax and the all of the anti-inflammatories and some of the pain medicines. And they'd always come in, they'd bring us lunch and they would all that type of stuff with it, which is just, it still goes on. I mean, there was this sunshine act where they supposedly limited that, but it still happened pretty routinely. I don't know if you're involved in that. It still happens. We still have reps bring lunch to our office. And there, most of them have their night, like you said, very nice people. We can have a degree in anything as long as you have a four year college degree to do this job. You don't have to have any type of medical background, right? You are taught to say the company narrative and you rehearse it and you have to present it and have people say you did it well and then that's what you go out to all the doctor's offices and you parrot that. You are taught how to look through a package insert so that if you're asked a question, you know where to find the answer in the package insert because by law, that's what you're allowed to refer to as information. But, you know, it's just interesting because as a pharmacist by trade, and I did actually work in hospital and retail pharmacy and then spending time in the industry and then now doing this, I'm the pharmacist that's going to try to get you off your medications. Why? Because I understand the science behind it and I understand the money that goes into it and I understand the risks when you have like to your point a randomized clinical trial of X number of patients that doesn't necessarily represent what's going to happen when that medication gets out to the general population. I personally think ozemvic is in big trouble. I had the scientific liaison for that drug sit down in my office with me and admit to me that their weight loss is coming from losing bone density and muscle mass. It does cause sarcopenia. It's not fat. And so I looked in and I said, what are you guys going to do about that? That's not good. And he said, most people can't stay on it for very long. A lot of people do get some pretty bad GI side effects. And it still gets sad because it's not addressing the root of the problem. I think you and I know how sugar-indicted people are and everyone just wants the easy way out. And I wish more time and money could be spent and these companies' resources could be spent on that type of effort instead of creating a drug dependency. Does that look at everything that happened with OxyContin and all of that? Is ozemvic going to be like the new drug epidemic? It's crazy. It's where we're going to see some stuff come out of this for sure. Well, we'll see what happens. And like I said, and by the time it comes out, they'll be on to the next drug anyway. Like I said, they'll probably be a class action lawsuit. They'll pay maybe a couple billion dollars, which will be pocket change. And it was going to the next one. And it's just the way it is. It's built into the pricing structure. We know we're going to kill a few people. We're going to name a few people, whatever. And we're making our whatever $100 billion will pay $2 billion for taxes for killing people and just go on. And so it's that's a deal there. And of course, the counter argument as well, if these people didn't have drugs, more people would die. And it's like trying to prove a negative. It was reminding me that some of the COVID narrative, if they didn't have the vaccine, it would have been way worse. I'm like, how do you know? How could you prove that? You can't. It's just it's unprovable. So anyway, I'll tell you what, we're just almost out of time here. I want to give you a chance to just tell me like, if someone's in Hawaii and they want to go to your clinic, where do they go? How do they find you guys? If you have any social media you want to share, please go ahead and do that if you don't mind. Yeah, I think most people, if you go to our website, the ketoprescription.com, you can learn more about what we do, what our program includes. On Instagram, we're under the keto prescription. And we try to cover everything from why you should do this, to what the lifestyle looks like, to it's you're not miserable. You still live a great normal life cooking videos, meal suggestions, all of that type of thing. And really, my goal from this start was always just to help the people of Hawaii, primarily because we need it here. And so I know a lot of people know who you are out here. And so it's been real. It's been great just talking to you one on one like this and being on your podcast and having this opportunity. You know, again, thanks for there's, there's another pharmacist. I think he's in grant grandfathers in the UK, he's similar to our thing, similar to our experience. He was a pharmacist in his life and kind of woke up to this fact that this isn't the right way to do things. And so now he is also a proponent of low carb ketogenic and carnivore diet. So maybe at some point, we'll run into each other. I don't he's in the UK. So geographically, you guys are pretty far away, it feels fantastic. Anyway, it's been a pleasure. So I'll tell you what, that you have a wonderful day. Go feed your chickens. I know, I can hear it. And we'll talk again. I'm sometimes sure I'll hopefully I get back to why in the near future. Yeah, give me a buzz if you're ever out here. I will, I will for sure. All right, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you.
