"My dad works in B2B marketing. "He came by my school for career day "and said he was a big row as man. "Then he told everyone how much he loved "calculating his return on ad spend. "My friend's still laughing at me to this day." - Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com/results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. Linked in, the place to be, to be. - This is Pop Culture Confidential, and I'm Christina Yerling-Biro. (upbeat music) - Welcome, everyone, to this episode, I like to call Beyond the Horizon. And welcome to my frequent collaborator, awards watch executive editor, Ryan McQuaid. Hi, Ryan. ♪ Home, home on the range ♪ ♪ Where Costner spends $100 million every movie ♪ - Beautiful. Precisely, we're gonna be talking mostly about the aftermath of Kevin Costner's mega passion project, the planned four-part saga horizon. And now, Costner's been loyal to the old-fashioned western, pretty much throughout his career with films like Silverado, Wyatt Earp. He directed and starred in Dances with Wolves in 1990, for which he won Best Picture. Horizon got off to a rough start at the box office. Made 11 million the first weekend, the budget was as you so brilliantly sang 100 million. I think it's up to about 20 at the worldwide box office now. Warner Brothers only paid for distribution, meaning that the film's marketing expense was on Costner's dime, I understand. And he put in 38 million of his own money, apparently mortgaging his ranch. And it's been a little over a week since the premiere. We're gonna be talking about the aftermath, what it means in the industry, what it means for the coming chapters that he wants to put out, directors with epic mega projects and much more. There's been a lot of reviews out there. You have one on WordsWatch, of course, but briefly before we start, let's share our personal thoughts on the film. - Well, I'm a sucker for a Western. I am, it's one of the founding genres, I think in most popular genres in all of Hollywood, but it's one that I hold near and dear 'cause like my dad and my grandfather showed me a melon, my mom showed me a lot of musicals and then the discovery kind of goes off from there, right? And Costner is an interesting figure in the Western, he's an interesting figure in Hollywood because you just think of him with dad movies, right? Or you think of him in the 80s and 90s and he was the star and he's a very unconventional star. He's not the sort of standard, you know, kind of looking model, right? He's sort of an every man kind of look to him. And he can run people the wrong way. There's numerous stories because he's very, let's just say he's got a giant ego, even bigger than what we think of most celebrities. And he thinks that he knows story better than everyone. And this is including people like Clint Eastwood and Steven Spielberg and Scorsese and a lot of people that he's come into contact with, to Palma over the years. And if you don't believe me, go listen to any of the clips that he just recently had with Howard Stern on his show to understand even that that ego has not tempered in his older age. But he is set out on the Prairie, kind of in defiance of Paramount and CBS and Vicon after the enormous success of Yellowstone, which has had like a giant resurgence in his career. It is one of the most popular shows on television, you know, it has ratings out the wazoo. And that has a lot to do, I think, with Costner, being at the front of it, but also Taylor Sheridan, who is making shows for people across America that they don't normally get to see. And so that creative process, right? Christina went into a little bit of a bumpy road and he's really wanted to do this. He's been wanting to do this for like 20, 25 years. And you and I, we both love a passion project. We both love somebody that is... - We're gonna get into that. - Wanting to pour every resource that they have into making something really special. And in doing so, I have a lot of respect for Costner for that. I always do. Anytime you're putting your mortgage and your life savings and your kids' inheritance and all that on the table, for a movie, I love. This movie is fascinating because I don't know if it's good or bad. I still don't know. I'm about a week and a half out from seeing it. You talk about that marketing. It felt like the marketing didn't exist. For a movie that's supposed to build a franchise, that's supposed to build up three more parts afterwards, we literally have part two coming out in a month. And it did not scream for critics across America. The only way to see it is either you live on the coasts or you go buy a ticket. And it's a really, sort of, I think, a responsible way of having coverage of that because that's sending a message to kind of cancel out credit culture and journalism for the sake of trying to get more money. It did not have great reviews out of Cannes. And I think that that pivot was a reason why. He was very emotional. You were at Cannes, he was very emotional about it. The movie itself is five or six storylines, seven storylines, a hundred storylines, it feels like dozens of characters, just all kind of as filler leading up to what is exceptionally eclip real three hours in for the next part. And there's some interesting stuff. There are effective storylines. I think the Sienna Miller in Sam Worthington's storyline is quite beautiful and it got me emotionally, especially during the raid on her family and losing her son. And I thought all that was really tense and effective and terrifying and great action and sound work by Costner. He knows how to shoot an action sequence. There's no question about that. If you've ever seen, not just dances with wolves, but he made a film with Duval in the early 2000s, about 20 years ago called Open Range. And that has one of the great shootouts in the modern western and the sound work in that is incredible, incredible stuff. So he's able to shoot that and it's kind of hard not to shoot a vest, but like a sweeping, just sort of landscape of America. But there's too much going on here. There's no point to it. That's, I think, the cardinal sin of it is there should be a point to it. And after three hours, you have to have a point to get your audience going to the next chapter, in the next chapter, right? And it only seems like the flyer, which is used throughout of Horizon, right, is the point to get to this point where we know that they'll all collide at a certain point in these upcoming films. So I kind of think it's an enjoyable dad movie for what it is, but it's a completely empty exercise. And it's the kind of western, I'm not a big fan of the, how the west was won, sweeping, ensemble, but even that, how the west was won has movie stars in it. This has like people that he had to ask at a party to come in and shoot a couple of days. Like he doesn't have, like he's the biggest quote unquote, movie star on the poster. And he doesn't show up until an hour into this movie. And he rides up on his little horsey, you know what I mean? So I don't know, I'm curious what you think of this because I was quite conflicted on it and still am. - Well, I mean, like you, I love and respect a good passion project. You were talking about Kevin Costner as the everyman. I love him, I think he's that individualist, rugged, American archetype. And in about an hour in, he comes in as that in this film too. I think the movie sort of gained speed there, but I am with you, I'm very mixed. I met prospective journalists at Cannes, who said, you know, we really have to respect the fact that he goes to these classic westerns. And sure, you don't always have to do the revisionary westerns that have been big recently, which are sort of my speed, the Tarantino type of things. But doing something very classic well is great. But this did not work for me. The narrative, as you were saying, is way too heavy-handed. It's confusing, there's too many storylines in this massive cast of characters. And what happens is what you're saying, it doesn't mean anything. What does he wanna say with this? And it honestly makes it boring. And also what would have made it better is if it was an episodic TV, if it was Yellowstone. I mean, in that case, we would be able to wait episode to episode to what he was actually trying to do. I personally found it sort of right out of the Hollywood casting, the cute kids and aprons. Sianna Miller's storyline is great, but she's hiding in like a dirt bunker and comes out looking like she's gonna walk the runway with someone spreading dirt on her. And it just didn't feel, and I understand that it's a budgetary problem, but I really don't see why this should be filmed in digital. Yes, it's sweet and beautiful, but you would think if you do a passion project that that would be part of it, right? And the cliffhanger ending, which comes after three hours with this montage of scenes, it just feels like TV. So I just don't, it didn't really work for me. Even though I can see, I love people who try to do, we're gonna talk, I wanna talk to you about why this is different from, since I saw two days after, before I had seen Coppola's Megalopolis, and why that worked differently for me. But it did not, I don't see this as the great epic Western that I think he and I respect others who do see it like that, but for me, it wasn't. Yeah, I mean, there are so many interesting places this could talk about, because there's a, like Costner's section is, he meets this, because like the small town, and there's like a call girl there, and he's, yeah, yeah. And she's, she's living with Jenna Malone, who is on the run from trying to kill her husband, and I'm part of like this, you know, family that is well known within the area of being very powerful. There's a lot of interesting ideas on the table with something like that. Power of families in the West, the idea of not being able to escape your past, the man with no name sort of figure coming in, very Clint Eastwood classic, the idea of having it centered around these female characters, it could be very unforgiven. If you make it dark, it could be, it could be, you know, sort of, how all Josie Will's or, you know, the man with no name trilogy of saving the town from the evil within. It doesn't go anywhere though with there. It just turns it into, well, they find her and he's got to take the kid and, you know, and the sex worker with him and she's got a heart of gold, but she's complicated and there's like a weird character that shows up at the end of their plot line. And you're like, why does she run off at this person? And it doesn't fully explain it. And, you know, it doesn't explain why he doesn't get the kid. You know, I mean, like there's so many like weird, it's so, that's just one plot line. And then it's confusing as to like, Sienna Miller and her daughter and a bunch of people they go with Sam Worthen and to this, essentially like this set up by the U.S. government, right? It's sort of a base and where soldiers are kind of taking care of everyone. The rest of them go off as these vigilante, Native American bounty hunters, they're going to kill all the Comanche in the area. And that was to me really confusing 'cause it's just like, I mean, I understand that this tragedy happens at the beginning of the film, but now you've made all them bloodthirsty kind of animals or discussing and you're not really talking about that, like there's conflict in them, but like, why is there conflict in them? You know what I mean? - Yeah, the backstory is still missing. I mean, let's talk about that sort of the aftermath about the indigenous representation. He commented on by saying something to the likes of that he's so tired of everyone being very delicate about indigenous representation. And this is the past few years we've had killers of the Flower Moon, incredible projects by Lily Gladstone, Sterling Harjo's reservation dogs. What do you make of both the representation in the movie and his comments on that? - I think his comments are a little bit part of that ego. They're sort of short-sighted because it feels like a dad using the term woke and saying, I know what to do with this. I have made movies about the Native American before the indigenous culture before and I haven't been canceled for it. So I'm gonna go back to the well. - Get off my lawn. - Yeah, it's very clean. These are like, get off my lawn and get out on my Western and it is short-sighted. It's completely, he played himself. He plays himself here because his indigenous characters are thinly written. They of the six story, five or six story lines in this movie are the ones that aren't represented enough. - Yeah, I mean, imagine Sterling Harjo making a big epic Western like this. I'm not saying it, I mean, it's just, you don't have to do everything but I still don't feel that there's enough backstory. I don't understand why his comment really here. - I mean, it is essentially, they attack these white people. Then they go back to their tribe and they talk about in the most generic, I'm not gonna do it, but it is the most generic indigenous voice work I've seen a kind of, if you got, if you complained about the under representation of the Osage and Killers of the Flower Moon, that is transcendent compared to what happens in this movie and it'll be really curious to see the consultants or the people that talked a lot about and I'm sorry not to get really frustrated, but that movie Killers of the Flower Moon was so meticulously put together and Scorsese spent a lot of time with the Osage and understood them and had a lot of their input and put a lot of work into that and was super, super, super delicate with it. This feels like, well, I can just go back to dances with wolves and have stereotypes up there and then I can give them not even 20 minutes of screen time to fully understand Liskard, I know more probably about Kevin Costner's horse that he rides than I do the indigenous people and they are considered the bad guys in this movie. They are through and through. They and the other family that Costner's running away from are the primary antagonists of this movie. - Yeah, and if let's give him the benefit of doubt that he's making four chapters and there's something else that's gonna happen, but he actually starts off this movie without any sort of, 'cause I was actually reading a review by a Native American who was generally like the movie but did say why do we have to start off with this horribly violent, long, incredibly filmed but sequenced where we don't, while the other people, before this sequence, the white people get partying, we get some sort of backstory even though it's brief, we get nothing as to why this attack happened and then that's sort of it and maybe he's gonna come back to that, we don't know, but it just feels like sloppily, the narrative again, if this is the case, just doesn't work, it's sloppy. - I mean, if he was gonna go back to it for a storyteller, you go back to it in the damn three hours. - Exactly. - That you have here, so I can't give him the benefit of the doubt of that Christina, because if he's not gonna willing to tie the loose ends of that story in this story, like he does with every white character, I mean, he's got Giovanni Robisi, England Turman, showing up in the next part, he's got, I believe Thomas Hayden Church showing up, maybe in part three or something like that, he's got a bunch of other actors, he's gonna start branching this thing out, he's gonna leave these people in the dust and you're right, you're showing this great place and white people thriving on the land of the indigenous and the only time we get is we get them having conflict with them themselves and then they separate and that's it and it's super frustrating because we don't, I don't really know those people and that's the kind of the problem with the whole project in general. I don't know these characters' names, I sat with them for three hours, I don't know any of their names, I don't know who these people are, I don't honestly, besides a quick little put up on the screen, I don't remember where they are at. - It's too many. - It's too many locations, it's too sweeping and you're right, like this should be a television series where this is the Wyoming chapter, this is the California chapter. - Yeah, they include editor in there and make it a series, right? - Yeah, I mean, if it's 12 hours, 'cause I'm assuming all films are gonna be three hours long, God help us all, I mean all four films and I assume they're gonna be three hours so that's 12 hours, that's a season of television, that's a miniseries. - It is, it's Yellowstone. - Oh, it's Yellowstone, it's the Hatfields and McCoy's, which Costner was a part of and that's really where I think this sort of episodic storytelling, besides being a really big fan of those giant ensemble Westerns of the time, you know what I mean? How the West was one, again, is the blueprint for this movie? But that had three different directors making three different segments that collided with one another and they were all in a collaboration project. This is one mad man begging Yachts and Cannes to give him the fourth $100 million budget necessary and then yeah, $38 million for a campaign of marketing that felt very non-existent, felt very much like, there's a lot of films that have felt like that. This summer has felt really weird about like, okay, when is this movie coming out? When is it not coming out? Who is going to see it? Are critics going to see it? Our audience going to see it. Are we getting sneak peeks? Like, perfect example is my mom the other day. This is not to get on a tangent, Tristan. My mom the other day, she went, "I went and saw a fly me to the moon." And I went, "You saw a fly me to the moon?" "You saw a fly me to the moon, is it out?" She goes, "No, it was an advanced screening." I'm like, "An advanced screening?" She's like, "Yeah." And they've got like another one for, like they had one for Maxine. They got one for Twisters. And I sit there and I go, "How's that been official to your film? "You're opening box office weekend." Like you're-- - Yeah, and it's still, there's an embargo on that particular film. There's an embargo for journalists, but they have screenings here for audiences at like the AMC in Santa Monica. - It doesn't make any sense. Like, so somebody can go on Twitter, you know, and who is not a journalist and tweet all about it, but the journalist can't, you know what I mean? So it's weird. - Thank God. But like, this is distributed by Warner Brothers. And they have had, I mean, they've had Dune, they've had Furiosa, they have a ton of films coming out in the fall, right? They have Joker, they have Beale Juice, right? I believe as well. Like they have a ton of stuff coming out. And they have these two giant Westerns from Kevin Koshner, which they honestly don't need to get that much money back. There's no incentive for them to put a full campaign behind it 'cause they didn't finance it. - Right. - So they don't need to put too much behind it. And so it's kind of like Hollywood is showing that nobody wanted these things. We'll take 'em, looks good on a resume, but like nobody wants them. - We'll do no more, right? - Yeah, 'cause I mean, like I don't know what you think about the box office, Christina. - Yeah, let's move on to that. I mean, to end our discussion on Koshner's comments, he would then think we were much too delicate, right? That's what he would tell us. - I mean, he would think that, but then I would also call him completely blinded by his ego and his, for lack of a better term, white privilege and not understanding. And like in this movie, feels like he talked to no indigenous representation whatsoever in creating these characters. No, haven't heard about any consultants. So again, Mr. Consultant that screamed their head off at Martin Scorsese at the premiere that you were invited to, why don't you go scream at Kevin Koshner for a little bit? Because that, we haven't heard anybody at a red carpet, we haven't heard anybody in the media talk about it. We've heard about great journalists who have come out with their perspective already, but there's no call to arms, maybe because it's not an Oscar film or maybe it's in the middle of summer when everybody wants to go see a quiet place in twisters. - What's the old fashion that people just let it be? I don't know. - I mean, I guess so, but that, I mean, "Killers of the Flower Moon" has set it around the same time in the same period. Yeah, the making of it, I guess, but I mean, they're both sweeping epics. - I agree. - I mean, and also, one's just a little bit more prestigious because it's the difference between being the director Kevin Koshner and maybe the greatest director alive in Martin Scorsese. So. - Well, what do you make of the box office? So we can, it wasn't good. I mean, people did not go to see this movie. Were you surprised? Was it? What does it mean for-- - You and I did. You know, you and I did. I mean, bad marketing. It's a three hour movie in the middle of the summer. It's a three hour Western. Like, I mean, for a movie like this, I would be curious about, do audiences care about a three hour Western from Kevin Koshner? Or if I had put Christopher Nolan's name on this, what audiences have cared? - Yes. - And if that is the-- - What if you would have made a classic Kevin Koshner baseball movie? Would it made a difference? - Yeah, 'cause I don't think a Western in the summer is what people want, but like if I made like a, if I made like a fun baseball comedy with Kevin Koshner, maybe that would have worked. I think three hours right now is a little long. You know what I mean? I know that, you know, I like a long movie just as much as anybody. But the trailers for this, they don't tell you anything about the characters, they're cliches. And there's no story to it. And then you're telling me like, who are the other people that are attached to this thing that would get an audience to go? Like, you know, look at the cast of Barbie. Look at the cast of Oppenheimer. Look at the cast of Dune. Look at the cast, you know, look at these cast that have made money, right? Like they're trying ensembles. No offense to Sam Worthington. His biggest movies are the Avatar movies because of Avatar, because of Jane's Cameron, because of the special effects, because of the storytelling by, you know, a great filmmaker of epic storytelling that speaks to people globally. Nobody wants to go see a three hour Western if it's made by Kevin Koshner, you know? And then you don't know when it's coming out. And then you're telling people, you have to do this all over again in a month. And then you're also telling them, well, you can buy two for one tickets. And it's like, wait, what? - Yeah. - That's, I'll just wait for it to come on streaming. It seems too complicated. It's too complicated. - Well, so two questions. Will, how will this impact the other two? 'Cause the second one is coming out in August. That's done, that's finished. And, but the other ones I understand are hardly, are they made, are they done? - He's doing part three right now. - Right now. And then the other question is, will this be a massive hit on streaming? - I could see it being, I could see it being like, they find it on HBO Max, because that was the thing about Yellowstone. Yellowstone was found on streaming. And then, and because that was on like, what was it, like Paramount? - Paramount Plus. It was on Paramount Plus, and it was on Paramount's network, right? - Oh, yeah. - And then they moved it to there, and then that's when people start, it was like season two or three is when it started building up, right? And then by the end, they started putting the reruns on CBS, and now it's the global event that it is. I don't know. - I see this doing better, absolutely. - I think it has to do, I think it will do better, but how do you quantify its existence? And how do you quantify its success? Because like, I think this is-- - Well, he says it's gonna sell DVDs, which-- - Okay. You know, I had an interesting conversation a couple of weeks ago with Jeff Nichols for the bike riders. And the interview is up at Awards Watch, and he was explaining to me during the interview, and then we talked about it a little bit afterwards. He talked about that focus features has a really great sort of model. It's the Northman model, right? Where they'll release this movie by this auto director, very personal, passion project, you know, big budget or whatever, make it as much as they can there. Then obviously they have a way in which they're gonna put it on VOD, and a movie like that can thrive on VOD. You know, the bike riders just made a little bit, bike riders just made just as much money as Horizon. And that thing has got Austin Butler and Tom Hardy in it. Who are movie stars, Jody Comer, movie star. So like, it's got a big cast. It's two hours as opposed to three hours, right? And they can then say, well, let's put that on streaming in July, and they'll try to make all their money back that they can that way. And they think that that's a good model, and it's actually not a bad model. But this thing, he wants, he's so old school. I want the Blu-ray sales, but I'm making the Blu-ray in the steelbook. I saw this this week, an exclusive with Walmart. Because, and then also, why would I buy the first part? When I also know the second part's coming out, and I could just stream them, see if I like them, and then buy them. So the whole process, again, this is should be, part one should just be out this year. Part two should be out next year. We get four years of Horizon, whether that's fun for you and fun for me is not. I don't know. But it's a better model, because every time you've tried to, that studio is a jam-packed, the sequels, I think of the Matrix, the Matrix Reloaded was a giant hit, but the audiences kept going back and back to it going, "Why isn't this good?" Now, I love the Matrix sequels, but audiences at the time felt like it wasn't very good. And then they teased six months later, you'll get the ending, and it didn't make as much money, and it was a little bit more of a risk, and people were not happy with that ending. And so, I don't know if it's the right move, Christina, for him to have two parts this year. It also feels like they're just dumping it. - Yeah, do you think that the other, that this saga will be completed? I mean, will people pay for it? It's gonna get budget for all four of them, and considering... - That is, they're not done, and I just can't see anyone going, "Yes, let's continue pushing money into this." How many more ranches does he have to mortgage? - That's the $100 million question, I guess, right? Is he gonna get this finished? Because I don't know. It's not making any money. Unless you can show me the Blu-ray sales, or it becomes a giant hit once it's out of the theaters, but then again, that would then prove... - You want to see that stampede to Walmart? Yeah, oh, you know, they're lining up right now. They're all in their PJs. They're like, oh, rise in. Oh, rise in. It's like, guys, it's hot outside. You bring enough water? No, I mean, they're actually in line like the, like the Luke Wilson trail of wagons. You know what I mean? Thanks. No, I think it's, I think, at a certain point, it becomes a passion project and then it leans into vanity. Right. And those are two different things. You and I both know that, where it becomes also like someone's just got to talk to them and tell them maybe the last one is an hour television special. Or maybe it's not 100 million. Well, it's not his actor friend Michael Rookers is not the one who should be talking to him because he kept being defensive about this and and made some comments also the fact that that asked if TikTok was sort of impacting audiences sensibilities. He said they are, they got to get over that crap and learn what it's like to watch real cinema. Okay. That doesn't seem helpful. Would you say? It doesn't seem again like these people live in a reality. So Michael Rooker is an actor that has been for most of those audiences in Marvel movies. Marvel movies are not 90 minutes or they're not a minute on your phone. Some of them can be two and a half. The in-game was three hours long. Yeah, I'll tell you last year, the two cinematic, the cinematic event of the year was Barbie and Oppenheimer and everybody was sitting there like, which one you can see first, you can see Oppenheimer first, you can see Barbie first. Oh, no, I think I'll go. I'll think I'll go Barbie. Then I'll go Oppenheimer and you're like, okay, that's five hours of your day. And people did that over and over and over again to the tune of 1.4 billion for Barbie and nearly a billion for Oppenheimer. And Oppenheimer is the harder one to sell because it's a half black and white, three hour historical drama with sex scenes in it or rated all this stuff. Right? And yet it was made by someone that's a director of a generation. I would say the same thing with Greta Gerwig. She's a director of a generation and they have these giant ensembles and they were fun and they were interesting. And we talked about them all year long and there was a marketing and they fed off of each other and there was a buildup. It was super organic. We're not going to see something like that probably for a while. The counter programming of that was fantastic and they helped each other. But when old people like Rooker and Costner don't get their way, they double down then into almost essentially like Republican talking points. To the point of like, "Oh, well these kids, they don't understand real cinema." And it's like, "Well, of course you're going to get defensive Michael. This is where your paycheck's coming from." And you're just mad that people didn't like it and that's okay. Sometimes great works of art aren't seen as revolutionary or thought provoking or as interesting when they're released. And we all do respect you and I respect those that really like it too. I mean, we're not going to sit there. That's fine. I mean, Christina, Tony Scott, we've been doing him on director watch over at Awards Watch. Tony, you know that one of Tony Scott's most celebrated films now is "Man on Fire." Denzel Washington, fantastic action movie, right? Super personal film, right? The movie was 39% on Ron Tomatoes. The critics hated it. They hated Domino. They hated essentially Deja Vu. Most movies have been reevaluated over the last couple of years. And most of us... Which often happens with these passion projects. Exactly. And those are movies that are two-hour action movies in the middle of the summer with Denzel Washington. You know what I mean? Like "Man on Fire" should make a crap ton of money and it did okay. But like it's an R-rated action movie with Denzel Washington, which are like, those are just like equalizer movies that make a ton of money now. But it's been, they get reevaluated. They get celebrated. They find it on streaming. You know, people do director dives or whatever the case may be. Costner and Rooker here, they're just acting like two men that didn't get their way. And it's like, nobody wanted to see your movie. People rather see a quiet place. Which is like 90 minutes or two hours or whatever it is. They're gonna see inside out and take their kids. It's expensive to go to the movies. It is an expensive thing to go to the movies now. It shouldn't be. Let me just point that out. It shouldn't be expensive, but you gotta pay staffs and you know, the rise in inflation and everything. Like that's just the reality. It was that it was better too. It would have drawn more people. If people had said, yeah, I mean, if critics loved it out of Cannes, like honestly, it should have released the moment, the week after Cannes. And here's why. You had him emotional. You had him on Kimmel. He was doing promos for this a month before this came out. He was crying. I thought the press conference that he had at Cannes and you could speak to this more. I thought he was very sincere. Hey, it's Kaylee Cuoco for Priceline. Ready to go to your happy place for a happy price? Well, why didn't you say so? Just download the Priceline app right now and save up to 60% on hotels. So whether it's Cousin Kevin's Kazoo concert in Kansas City, go Kevin or Becky's Bachelor at Bash in Bermuda. You never have to miss a trip ever again. So download the Priceline app today. Your savings are waiting. Go to your happy place for a happy price. Go to your happy price, Priceline. They'd wait too long now and they do too many separate press things too long in advance for different territories. It needs to be streamlined much more today. Yeah, I mean, like, and he's got to do this all again, right? In a month? God bless him. But let's talk it. Let's give him. I mean, we respect the fact that he's doing. We love, as we said, directors and filmmakers who do their passion projects, their dream projects. I mean, he put his own money into dances with wolves, which made 400 million worldwide. And he did postman, one of film histories, Epic Fails, also a huge, huge risk he took. But we have other things. I mean, Coppola's always been doing this. He's always been mortgaging and selling his vineyards for different projects from a couple of apocalypse now going forward. I mean, I just wanted to make a lot less for me, hit me completely different. People hate it. I was quite moved by it, even though it's crazy. Warren Beatty did read and not to mention Chemino's Heaven's Gate, which people say ruined United Artists. But afterwards is getting reevaluated, as you said, and I'd like to like mention Damon Chizelle's Babylon in there, which also was a huge dream project, which I really like, but not everyone did. But what does this type of movie making these risk taking say about the director, would you say? I'm going to throw another one in there. Yeah. And it's my favorite movie of the year. Furiosa feels like a director passion project, because I didn't make any money. The whole franchise. The whole franchise. It doesn't feel like a franchise. It feels like a very personal dream project. It feels like every 10, 15 years, we get a Mad Max movie, and everyone's like, why didn't they make any money? It's like, because nobody really wants them because they're kind of niche, small. We still want them to keep doing this, right? No, I mean, yeah. They're sometimes they fail, but I mean, there's something so glorious about this risk taking. And when you see where they're coming from, and some of them really work and some of them don't, but is the impact on the film industry too hard? Or should we allow them this? Well, I mean, the director passion projects are in blank checks have been around for a long time. Like, Chemino's Heaven's Gate. That's an interesting one because it's one of like the four films that rode in on the apocalypse and killed the 70s outdoor filmmaking from the studios and turned into the buddy cop franchise films that we got in the 80s. And because the spending just got out of control, you know, the same thing happened with Sorcerer and New York, New York and tons of movies that just didn't also audiences did not give a damn about towards the end of the 70s. And they were like, okay, these guys, they're out. And, you know, it's cool, Eddie Murphy and Bill Murray, you know what I mean? I mean, like, and lethal weapon and franchise. Let's make franchises, right? Which is sort of like then like been the kind of the problem with now is that we're kind of like Tarantino talks about world like in the 80s part two almost right now. And in a lot of ways, he's not wrong because there's a lot of great movies in the 80s. There's a lot of, I mean, Kevin Costner is a baby of the 80s, right? You know, like in his interesting filmography comes from there and he's made a lot of great movies and made some, you know, some movies that I wouldn't recommend. And yet the 80s are known for the nostalgia, the franchising, the stranger things of it all. And what are we known for more right now? We're known for, you know, we're sitting here talking more about online about, you know, can Garfield and Furiosa make its money instead of talking about challengers and I saw the TV glow more on a massive scale. You know, or, you know, we're talking about Hitman and Beverly Hills Cop being on Netflix as opposed to those could have been moderate to pretty proud. I think Beverly Hills Cop 4 would have been a really good film to have over the 4th of July holiday and theaters. People were, that would have made like easily in its total run, probably like $200 million easily domestically. But we live and we live in a very different time. And so the director of passion project kind of changes. You know, I would say, I would say anything that has not been a Batman movie for Christopher Nolan almost feels like a director passion project because like no one gets to make movies like that. You know, people, you know, certain directors, they have the cache to do that. I mean, Jordan Peele is one of those, Greta Gerwig's one of those, to an extent, M. Night Shyamalan is one of those. And he is a guy that say what you want about M. Night Shyamalan and all the crazy, you know, like if you hate his movies or you love his movie. He's got, he's making him on time under budget, on budget, and you know what, he's got an interesting plug or pull to get an audience to go like trap. People can't stop, or my work can't stop asking me about trap, but they don't care about horizon. And so I think that there has to be passion behind it, you know what I mean? And isn't there a difference between like someone like Coppola? Coppola feels like, and he had a magnificent press conference account. Oh, I watched that in full. It doesn't feel like he's not hurting anyone. I mean, it's his own money. He's selling his vineyards. He's doing, he had a fantastic answer to that. That he's so proud of his kids, but they're all doing their own thing. They don't need his money. He's taking his stuff to put into his films. And Megalopolis is crazy bananas bonkers. But as compared to Horizon for me, Horizon feels like a very bland passion project where he's working on his old stuff again. While Coppola's putting everything in the kitchen sink into Megalopolis, and I mean everything he's ever believed in. His thoughts on politics, his thoughts on legacy, his thoughts on what art really is, on dying, on everything he's putting into this project, which also makes it all too sprawling and narratively confusing in his sense. But there was something very, I felt for this director passion project, I felt that it was much more personal. And that's why it sort of warmed me. If this movie has been made by anyone else, I would have seen other things. But for me, there's a difference here in how, and then he's, who's going to buy it? Is he going to make his money back? It seems like it's affecting him much less than the rest of the entire industry, or Walmart's future Blu-ray sales. Well, I think there also is a massive difference, Christina, in Megalopolis, Reds, Heaven's Gate, any other passion project, even Babylon, which is a film I don't like. Well, one, it's a passion project. Yeah, Damon Chazelle is going to be totally fine because he's got two more movies. He signed a picture deal with, with, you know, so he's not like, it's not like other directors, and I've said this about Damon Chazelle. Damon Chazelle is super lucky, because if he was a woman or a person of color, he wouldn't be working in this. He wouldn't be working in this business. Yeah, but he's like the golden boy, so everybody like, just excuses that, rather than thinking about the super privileged place that he is in, and because First Man didn't make a lot of money either. You know what I mean? So it's a very good movie, I think. I think his best movie is First Man, but that didn't make a lot of money. Babylon made a disaster, you know, it was a disaster. And critically speaking, he couldn't, it didn't work out either. It was divisive. But the difference between all those, it's one movie. It's just four movies. Yeah. So this is like, heaven's gates, reds, megalopolis, and Babylon, and just one guy's doing it. So that's, that is a little bit selfish, I guess, or that becomes, I guess, to a point where you're like, it seems too much, Kevin. Somebody's not telling him one movie at a time. See how it goes. He's like, I got to do all four right now before I die. And like, the thing about copolis kids, and the reason why megalopolis is one Francis for copolis made some of the greatest movies of all time. You know what I mean? He's made, I think, the greatest movie of all time in the godfather. So he gets kind of a lifetime pass for me. Okay? But the other thing is Roman Copeland and Sofia Copeland are respected artists in their own right. Exactly. And they have a revenue stream that's able to then, you know, branch out of any thing that their father could give them. The other thing is, that's financed by the winery, which is extremely successful. So he has a stream where he doesn't have, we're not hearing about Francis having to sell his house. It's just a couple of new bottles of wine this year. He sold one of the wineries for megalopolis. But that's, I mean, he has another one. But I'm sure he's what he wants to do. He's got, he's got a ton of them. Like the man's a multi-millionaire. He's going to live fine. And he's doing it because this is something he's wanted to do for a long time. And he's experimenting a lot in his older age. He just lost his wife and how he talks about her. And you can, I mean, you can feel it. He was ill during the making of megalopolis. And even though again, what a crazy movie it is, you can feel his thoughts on love and relationships. And there's something, if you watch this movie with a knowledge of him, please do. Please inform yourself a little bit. Before you go in to see this, you'll understand what I'm saying. But Costner's film here feels like just a spiteful answer to Yellowstone. When you really, when you really think about it, it's a giant $100 million dick measuring contest between him and Taylor. $400 million. Well, no, well, just this film. But yes, the overall $400 million project. And it's, I mean, I'm curious what you think. About his name and legacy after this. Because I know you, I know we were going to talk about this. But I'm curious to hear from you. Because for me, I think he'll be, I guess, fine, or you'll do whatever. But this feels like he burned once again another bridge in Hollywood to do this. And then this thing's going to fail. Might be one of the last times we get to really talk about him in full because he might just go back to being a small time character actor or very well could just retire with whatever he has left. I get feels like I wish he'd have the less ego and go back and do small time character acting because I think he'd be absolutely phenomenal. I think he'd get another acting Oscar if he would actually do something small and character driven. And it's interesting because I did a segment on TV about, just in general about Kevin Costner ahead of, of Horizon. And so I talked to a few and got some comments from movie lovers, but not critics or like us who see everything. Kevin Costner I think won't be Horizon for them. He's going to be bodyguard. He's going to be those movies you were mentioning from that five or six years he's going to be bold Durham. He's going to be JFK. Yeah. And that's going to be, I, I don't see if, if any part of him wanted to change or, or, or maybe the bigger legacy because of Horizon like this would be his Godfather say, or this would be his, you know, epic three part four part. I don't think that it will. I don't think that this people that audience who really loves him and really respect that part of his career that little spot in his CV those years that is still going to be Kevin Costner. And you know what Ryan, that's not too shabby. Those are amazing movies, which really define, I have to say, 100% what Kevin Costner is American movies, American politicians, American baseball, American westerners, he's done some of the best of those water world is still an incredible show at Universal Studios, even though as a movie it isn't I mean this is like going on what 30 years I don't even remember what it is. But I mean, I, I, so to answer your question, no, Horizon, I don't think we'll put a dent into a legacy if that's what what he was hoping for that that would become that off the table book that we have with the Godfather or that we have with Waging Bull or whatever I don't think so. But I do, I don't think it will hurt it. I don't think it'll hurt it but it's the same as before he started this project. Well, I think with audiences, you're absolutely right. The studios on the other hand, it might be different. I think studios and filmmakers, because I don't see a bunch of filmmakers sitting up here and being like, I gotta moderate the DGA conversation of Horizon Part Two. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like, I feel like... Yeah, I mean, like, I feel like he was, for most of my life to me as I grew up with those movies that we've mentioned. But for the last 20 years, he's kind of been, he's been a supporting player in a lot of movies. He hasn't been like the head name on the marquee. Like, he's had a couple of films like The Guardian and a couple of other stuff. But he's like, he's in movies like The Upside of Anger, The Company Man. He's Paul Kent and Man of Steel. He's the father on the bench in Molly's game. You know what I mean? So he is the, come in for a couple scenes, do a good job, you know, on with your life, Kevin. And so that's why I can understand him finally being like, no, I'm gonna reclaim being the man on the top of the poster and the top of the mountain, because Hollywood's not gonna do that. But I sometimes Hollywood, I mean, Hollywood's just a harsh reality of where you're at and what they think of you. And he could easily be just a small character actor that goes in there. He could easily have played straws in a version of Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer, I mean, he could appeal movie, can you imagine? Oh man, could you imagine him being like the, he would have been great as like the, he would have been great in Nope. Yes, he would have been great as the, he would have been great as the cameraman, character and Nope, he would have been wonderful. And yeah, like actually peeling him would be interesting, but the problem is, he's a lot like Will Smith with a better resume, because Will Smith is a guy that completely controls his image. And we were talking about this on director watch last week for the enemy of the state. It's like, what is the best Will Smith movie? It feels like a massive movie star with a filmography that doesn't match the level of interest and like he's got a lot of great movies at the box office. But he doesn't have the greatest movies of all time in that filmography. Cosner's got some of the greatest films in his genre, like JFK, you mentioned, and he's got a best picture winner and great Westerns and great romantic comedies and sports movies and, you know, all these different dramas. You know, he's got erotic thrillers. He's got everything he could want. He's worked with tons and tons of filmmakers. And he's got tons of stories along the way. He's lived a full life. But for studios, it just feels like, okay, we'll take your movie and we'll get the money for whatever it is. But it feels like more of a transactional altercation rather than like, we actually want to do this because Hollywood, I think, wants him to just make Yellowstone, just make Yellowstone, and he's doing this in spite of it. And so I think afterwards, it's like, you couldn't even work with Taylor Sheridan, who's working with everyone, like Harrison, like Harrison Ford and Helen Merrin. And he even made that movie with Angelina Jolie. And she doesn't make a lot of movies right now. You know what I mean? The hell of High Waters as well too, you know, that cast and Wind River and Sicario. All these people are working with Taylor Sheridan. They like working with the guy. He's very likable. Regardless of his personal, you know, politics or whatever, he's very, he's very effective and people like working with him. And he's like one of the faces of television right now because he's got like four shows. And you are the one person of all the people he's worked with to be in defiance of that. And you're doing it out of your own kind of just ego and who you are as Kevin Costa. So I think Hollywood, the audiences will still see him as, you know, Crash Davis. You know what I mean? They'll still see him as the guy, if you build it, they will come. They'll still see him as Kevin Costner, the movie star. But as we get older, in generations go away. Audiences will go, know him as who? What? When? And if this is a younger audience, which not for my screening, because there was nobody under the age of 66 other than myself in my screening, it looked like no one's going to know or care or, you know. And that's the other thing. It goes back to this cast. There's no one in this cast that younger people can relate to. Like Michael Rooker's complaining about the TikTokers, it would be nice if you had... If they get them all in there and they complain, that's one thing. Yeah, it'd be nice if you cater to like maybe it's not Sam Worthington. Maybe it's Austin Butler or maybe it is Tom Hardy. It's not the three hour screen time that the TikTokers are not going to see this movie. I mean, please. I mean, woman's the last movie, successful Western. Yeah, this is my last question. In the scope, in the Western genre, I mean, people have written... I mean, different ways compared this movie to, let's say, John Ford or Peck and Paul Leoner, whoever you wish. What is Kevin Costner's legacy with this movie within that genre, which I think he very much hopes to have a huge legacy. I mean, his legacy as a Western filmmaker is kind of the same, I think, about him as a director, period. I think Clint Eastwood is the blueprint and the kind of... Eastwood has worked with Leonie. He's worked with great directors his entire life. He's been in the system as just as long as Costner. But there's something about the awareness. Like a movie like Unforgiven, Clint Eastwood is aware of his place in the genre and subverting the expectations of an audience that would have with a Western that has his name above the marquee. Costner has never been that self-aware. He is a romantic to the fault of his own downfall. Because these are a romantic film. This is like, the West is my thing. I love the West. I love the dirt. I love the horses, right, Christina? And I think about it as it's like, no, we live in a post world where we live past 2007. I mean, look at movies that you could maybe classify as Westerns, like a no-country for old men. There will be Blood, a assassination of Jesse James by the coward, Robert Ford. 2007 really... Yeah, I think... There's a place for the classic Western, but it has to be better. I don't think it's here anymore. I think if it does, it has to ask something. It has to have movie stars. It has to have a tour of filmmakers behind it. It has to have purpose. And I mean, when was... Again, I asked the question. I can't remember it. When was the last Western that really successfully, critically hit the zeitgeist at the same time? It's been a long time. That's Yellowstone, I guess. I guess so. And that's not a romantic show either. That's asking other set of questions which we will get into here, but I mean still. It's appealing to an audience that wants that set of questions. Yeah, and so I think... I think he misses John Ford, and I think he misses. But even still, John Ford made the Man is Shot Liberty balance, which is not romanticizing the West. It's speaking, you know, I mean, the searches is not romanticizing the West. But I think... It's a complicated phone. It would be upset at us and say that I'm not romanticizing the West with this movie. And I would tell him, "Sir, you are flat out wrong." And I'd tell it straight to his face. As someone that... I'm setting this up, you know. I'm bringing him on. Cool. The showdown. He's pretty good at filming showdowns. I have to say there's some spectacular shit. He is. So we'll do that one with you and him. Yeah, I'm sure he would... He's a little testy in interviews. He likes to push back, which is not surprising. Because it just feels like winning an argument with him would be a lost cause. But no, I would tell him, I was like, "I understand you've watched these films, but I don't think you know how to make those films." Like, he could sit there and tell me, "I've seen Leona. I've seen Man is Shot Liberty balance. I've seen this movie that..." The only one of his movies that actually challenges the idea of the Western or the basic setup of like a small town or control that is actually open range. And it's one that we don't talk about enough. And he was actually really smart in that movie to make himself the secondary lead. And Robert de Voll is the lead character of that film. And yet nobody talks about that movie because it's really hard to find on physical media and you'd have to stream it. But because his persona as an actor has been dancing with wolves, which does romanticize things, and the postman, which is a giant failure. And if you want to put water world on his back because they go back and forth whether he directed that movie or not, then that's another giant failure. This is another giant failure. How many giant failures does Kevin Costner need to make before somebody tells him, "Hey buddy, maybe keep it in the bank." You know? But weirdly, Christina, we've been very critical of him. And I got to say this, I still kind of feel for him a little bit. And I kind of want him to succeed because every time we talked about the director passion projects, the massive big hits, I want megalopolis to succeed. Because then they start becoming fewer and fewer and fewer and then they don't happen anymore. And I'm nervous as hell of Warner Brothers giving PTA 100 million dollars to make his next movie or so. And I've now heard it's up to 140. And that's got Leo. You know what I mean? I'm scared. I don't know what that movie, I mean, I'll be there. We'll be first in line. Yeah, we'll be first in line. But I'm scared, you know, because if you make a mistake like that, it could cost you your career. Yeah, but the thing about costner is that I think we both really, really admire the passion and the ambition. But there's something not very personal. I think the mega director passion projects that they can be just as crazy as this, but that feel really, really personal are the ones that become something that people remember. And we visit and also they were failures. They were whatever 15 on that times, rotten tomatoes. Now they're masterpieces. And that's because of the personal nature of that the person who actually saw this project through. And I don't see this here. Well, I mean, the thing about it is too, it's like from people like myself and you and people who listen to our show and other shows like going down to directors or an actor's filmography is fascinating. I would say that going down the filmography as an actor for Kevin Costner is a extremely wonderful, rewarding experience for the most part. But if you go down the actor round, I mean the director round. The director out, right. That is a, that is like, and if the horizon series continues, it is a struggle. So like, I know Blank Check is going to do his five films. They're going to do the postman and dances with open range in the two horizons this summer coming up. And I'm like, those, those, those episodes will be great. But the movies that they're talking about, not so much. You know what I mean? All right, I'm leaving you with the last question. What is the director or project you'd like to see Costner in? Oh, man. A work with. A director I'd like to see him work with. Or a project you'd like to see him take on? Whatever. What's your? Man. That's tough. Do you have one? Do you have somebody? I don't have something specific, but I think it'd be interesting if he did. Another one of these sort of political type of thrillers. I think that would be interesting if he'd go back to something like that. I think he had to give himself over. I think like, I think he would be frustrated with like a fincher. Like shooting a hundred scenes over and over again. Yeah, that wouldn't work. You know, somebody, somebody like, I mean, Nolan would make sense because that's like a, that's, he goes great with movie stars. Actually, Chazelle would be interesting too. I love what he did. I'd say something going back to the fincher. Sorry. I just came to think it. What about hit like something like hit map? Oh, like if he did like a late fit, like a link later? Like, you know, like, I mean, I mean fincher. Like a sexy, like, oh, like he was a hit man hit man. Yeah. Like the, like the killer. Like he was the killer. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that would be good. It's a bit satirical. Something a bit edgy sweaty. The, the, the. He's a funny guy. He's a funny character. Yeah. The films he made in the 90s that were very tense. You know what I mean? Mm hmm. No way out. Yeah. No way out. No way out. Yeah. Revenge. You know, something like that. I don't want to see him in any more romcoms or westerns or. No, actually. Or baseball movies. I want something else. I have a name. Yeah. I have someone I think he could work with. Not to say that like this person, he's got his own complications and we'll see his, I guess, sequel passion project later this year, because we just saw the stills. But I think Costner would really Scott would be fascinating. Mm hmm. I think that that would be, no, I mean, they, they both little old, but no, I think that like they, they live in the tradition, but in the traditional landscape, I don't see him working with a modern director. Let's just go out that and say that because, I mean, okay, and yeah, Ari Aster and Kevin Costner, no, no, no, but what about Tarantino if he had the balls to work with him? I mean, he'd want to change that script and there's just, you know, Tarantino, if he wasn't, if he was, if he just was like, shut up, Kevin and standing in front of the camera, that would be really good. You know what I mean? Like that would be. And something really out there, something Bruce Willis, he, yeah, like a whole fiction. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like, yeah, like that would be good for him. Him and like, it feels weird, him not being in like, once upon a time in Hollywood, because he's got that sort of 60s actor quality, right? He's still got that laggonness to it. Everything rugged about him off. Yeah. I want him to be completely vulnerable and sort of left to that. I want him to, I want him to look like the sun kiss California, the sexy kind of guy, right? I mean, like that's, that's, you know, that's what's so great about him in like, Bull Durham is something not American. He played Italian. No. You know, honestly, if he did like a political thriller, like someone like Paul Greengrass, if Greengrass was able to tap into because, because like, that's somebody that is very much in the, like, when you talk with, listen to Greengrass, he's very much in for collaboration. I think he has to work with somebody that wants to collab, doesn't want, you know, to like, like a full on a tour, you know, I mean, like, you know, like, I think that that's why. Well, you know, it's interesting. We haven't mentioned one woman. We can't even see him going there. Well, I mean, you saw how he handed off that Oscar to, to Jane Campion. No, it was freaking weird. Um, I don't know, I mean, he could, he could play Auslund in, in the Narnia movies. Only do that. He's got a great voice. That is the thing about he, that is the thing about costume. He's got that great voice, super commanding still, like he could do, he could do something with, with her. I mean, really small with Celine Song or something. Oh, that would, oh, yeah, like a, I mean, the real answer. Are you ready for this? Yes. This is the real answer, full on Nancy Myers. Oh my God. That would be hilarious. Nancy Myers and Kevin Costner is the male, great kitchen, great kitchen. And it's like him and Leslie Manville, you know what I mean? And it's, and it's a, it's, it's just adorable and sexy and, you know, he's taken around on dates, you know what I mean? Or, and it can be set around the world. Who cares? You know what I mean? Like, oh, that would be great. That's great. That's what we want. We want that. Perfect. Yeah. Nancy, I'm just like, I just want Nancy to make movies. I miss her. Terribly. Yes. Oh, we all do. Thank you so much, Ryan. Tell everyone where they can hear you and read you and follow you. You can follow me on Twitter, Instagram, Letterbox, @RyanMcQuade77. You can find all my work at a WardsWatch where there's also the two podcasts that I host, which is the WardsWatch podcast, as well as the director watch podcast from around the middle of our Tony Scott movie series right now. Thank you. And you'll be back on here. I'll be back here. I'll be back soon. We don't know what we're doing yet, but we're doing Fridays with Ryan's. This is not a Friday, but this was kind of a special. Yeah, this was a special one. We had to saddle up for this one. We had to saddle up for this one. So you'll be back. I can't wait and we'll figure out something fun to talk about. Thank you so much, Ryan. Thank you, Christina. Are you looking for a podcast where you can learn about the juiciest historical events and people, but it really feels like you're just gossiping with your girlfriends over a glass of wine or two? Well, that's why we created right answers mostly for what you didn't learn in history class, but you really wanted to. I'm your host, Claire Donald. And I'm Tess Belomo. Join us every Monday as we dive into the most iconic people and events and get ready to laugh along the way. We covered all from Titanic to Chris Jenner, Studio 54, Marie Antoinette, even Colson crime such as Charles Manson and Jonestown every Monday wherever you listen to your podcast because history is just gossip. 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