Pop Culture Confidential

Episode 10: Goodfellas to Forrest Gump - Legendary Casting by Ellen Lewis

Guest: Ellen Lewis The iconic performances in Goodfellas, Scent of a Woman, Forrest Gump, The Devil Wears Prada, Wolf of Wall Street and close to 70 other films have one thing in common - renowned casting director Ellen Lewis. While the director and screenwriter create a films world, it is the casting directors job to fill this world with just the right mix of actors to create exhilarating onscreen chemistry. Lewis has been doing just that for directors such as Mike Nichols, Jim Jarmusch, and Martin Scorsese. In fact her IMDB page looks like a list of the best films from the past two decades. In this exclusive interview with Ellen Lewis we discuss her career changing films, tricks of the trade, why there is still no Oscar given for casting, and her recent work which includes the upcoming Steven Spielberg feature Bridge of Spies, and highly anticipated new HBO series Vinyl, produced by Martin Scorsese and Mick Jagger. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Duration:: 34m
Broadcast on:: 11 Sep 2015
Audio Format:: other

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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My guest this week has consistently and artistically been a major part of making cinematic history again and again and again. Legendary casting director Ellen Lewis doesn't own an iPhone. She wants her focus up on the people she passes and the faces around her. Maybe this is part of the reason she is one of the most accomplished and renowned casting directors in the industry. She's had long collaborations with directors such as Mike Nichols, Woody Allen, Martin Scorsese and Jim Jarmish. And her casting choices have turned out amazing performances in movies such as Goodfellas, Sent of a Woman, Cape Fear, Forest Gump, The Devil Wears Prada, The Wolf of Wall Street. And that's just scratching the surface of her long career. Ellen Lewis follows in the footsteps and credits other casting greats with her success, such as Juliet Taylor, who cast Annie Hall and Schindler's List, and who hired Ellen Lewis for her first job as casting associate. As well as a real casting pioneer, Marion Doherty, who gave James Dean Dustin Hoffman and Robert Redford their first shots, and who is the primary subject of the 2012 documentary Casting By, a film I highly recommend that shines a light on the casting profession that despite being a hugely integral part of the movie making process is so often overlooked. They're still not even an Oscar category for casting to this day. I'm very pleased to talk to Ellen Lewis, who lately has been very busy casting some huge upcoming film and television projects. Steven Spielberg's new feature Bridge of Spies, Martin Scorsese's new film Silence, as well as his HBO series produced with Mick Jagger, Vinyl. Miss Ellen Lewis, I'm so honored to speak to you. Thank you very much. Thanks so much for asking me. I'm very excited. We are many times as casting directors, not recognized for our work. So I very much appreciate speaking with you today. I start off with a question we sort of throw around the term a lot as journalists about star quality. As a casting director, is there such a thing and who would have it? You know, when I'm casting, I don't really think about star quality. I think about the world that the director is looking to create what their vision is, what their taste is, and that's what I gear towards rather than thinking in terms of star power. But is it something they have a charisma? I mean, I'm not talking money or power or box office, but like a personal glow. I think a good example of this is Margot Robbie, who stars in the Wolf of Wall Street. And you know, this drawer was open. I mean, we read a lot of actresses from everywhere. And I wouldn't say, though, that in my mind, what I had was star power. What I was thinking about was who her character is in the movie. And obviously, I wanted a beautiful girl for the role of Naomi, you know, a sexuality, a strong sexuality, and somebody who would play well with Leo. And obviously, Margot is a star, but that was not what was foremost in my mind. But she had all the qualities that you're describing, the charisma and the glow, all of that. Stop flexing your muscles, Jordan. You look like a fucking imbecile. Babe, Loni, you should feel happy you got a husband who's in such great shape like this, huh? Come here. Come on. Give me a kiss. It looks so beautiful right now. It looks so beautiful. Kiss. One of your first jobs when you were in a casting associate for another legendary casting director, Juliet Taylor, you, one of your jobs I understand was to find a young actor to play Woody Allen in radio days. How did you go about this? I credit every part of my career to Juliet. She's everything a casting director is and is brilliant in every way. And everything that I learned, I learned from her. I worked for her for eight and a half years. So at that point, I was trained to do what I call street casting, you know, finding real people, looking for faces. The first movie that I worked for her on Broadway, D. Annie Rose, I looked for all of the acts, all of those funny acts. And it was a great deal of fun to look into this weird world of people who blow balloons in interesting ways or people who had birds or mad magicians and all sorts of crazy things that they did. And then the other task that you were given was to look for kids. So whether that, you know, was a young Woody Allen or a group of kind of funny kids. And at that point, you know, which was quite a while ago, you were allowed to go into schools and look for people, you know, another task was maybe looking for old people or an ethnic group like Italians. And so you would go walking in Little Italy and see if you saw good faces. Do you walk around in the street and look at faces? In my life? Yes, just in general, when you're on the street, are you always, are you always working? I look at people, I definitely am observant. That doesn't mean I'm approaching people, but you know, I actually don't have an iPhone. I like my head up. I don't like my head down. I think that I am observant. And one of the reasons I like living in New York rather than Los Angeles is because you see people here all the time. You're looking at faces, you're not in a car, you're on the subway, you're walking, and you see human beings. And that's what we do. We look at human beings in our work. And the move from assistant to casting director yourself, when did this happen? The key moment was when Bob Greenhut, who was Woody Allen's producer for many years, called me to ask if I was available and would go meet Martin Scorsese for New York stories, Marty Segment of New York Stories. And Julia was taking the summer off, and Marty did not have a casting director at that point. And so I cast his segment of New York Stories. And I got a call about doing Goodfellas, so I would certainly say that Goodfellas has defined my career and really, you know, New York Stories was the first movie that I did for Martin Scorsese, but Goodfellas definitely I would say really got us going in a fantastic way. To me, being a gangster was better than being president of the United States. Never ran on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut. It meant being somebody in the neighborhood that was full of nobodies. Oh, you broke it, Jerry. Hey, Mom, what do you think? You look like a gangster. Let's say Goodfellas, for example, how does your work start with Martin Scorsese when you have a picture that he comes to you with? It varies from project to project, but obviously I get a script. And if there's any research that's been being done on a project because Marty really, you know, is very detail-oriented in terms of the worlds that he's creating. So for instance, Gangs of New York, I had a lot of, not many photographs, but lithographs of that era. And I got some books that had faces kind of of that era. And then other films that we work on, there might be films that he's giving us for reference material, Hugo, obviously, the films of George Meleze and other early films. So there's a research process for you as well? Yes, because it's fantastic, because again, what it's doing is it's getting you into the world that he is going to be creating. But he also, one of the greatest things about working with him is the fact that he's very open to ideas and different ways of looking at things. And so I have, you know, a lot of creative leeway in terms of ways of thinking about a role. And I feel very safe with him about bringing up actors and different ideas. Who were the first people you brought in for Marty to see? Do you remember? Like Debbie Maiser came in to read for me and I loved her and I thought she would be perfect for the role. I'm not even sure how many other people I saw for it. And when I brought her into Marty, he felt exactly the same. Samuel Jackson had been doing theater and working in New York for a long time. He was the only person I brought in for the role that he played in the film. That's the only person of color in the movies, Stacks AdWords. And I definitely did real casting for Goodfellas. I had a memorable dinner that Ray Liotta has mentioned many times. Okay. What was that? It was a dinner at a restaurant called Rayo's, which is a very well-known Italian restaurant in East Harlem in New York. And I was taken there with Ray and Martin and Nick Pellegi, the writer. And there were people told that we were going to be coming that night. And basically all through dinner, people were being brought to the table, some of whom were going to be able, I would be able to audition, and others who seemed to be a little bit higher up in the organization that we were told. We couldn't think about for the movie, but they still, of course, wanted to meet Marty and wanted to pay homage to him because they loved his films. And I cast a bunch of people from that dinner. That's amazing. See, that's why it's real. Yeah, definitely. You mentioned that someone came to the audition with a gun. Yeah, someone came to the audition and offered me $3,000 to be Marty. You know? And I, of course, said that was ridiculous. But unfortunately or unfortunately, I actually thought he was right for one of the parts in the movie. And I had him back to read for Marty, but I scheduled him in such a way because a lot of times I'll try policemen, real cops. So I kind of told one of the people, I think, coming in before or after him that I was a little nervous about this guy. So I made sure. And then the guy got cast in the role. And he tried to get some publicity for it later, saying that he had come to the audition, carrying a gun, said to that publication, "I don't think that you should write anything about this fellow at all," because what he did was not correct. You know, clearly, I don't need to be frightened to cast someone or be paid money. And so I don't think you should tell anybody about it, even though I, of course, then tell the story. Talking about Scorsese, he's repeatedly, he works with incredibly talented women. I'm thinking about Barbara Dafina, executive producer, the longtime editor, Thelma Schoon Walker, yourself. His movies are generally kind of masculine in a world of male egos and gangsters. But the women in there are still pretty powerful. Tell me a little bit about casting women in his movies. You know, it's funny, you know, I never thought about that. And you're right, he, you know, as some amazing women who surround him in his creative process. You know, I have a fantastic working relationship with Marty, and the films are somewhat male dominated, but we've always had a great time casting the women in the films as well. So I can't really separate it out, particularly. When you audition actors for a movie, how does it work today with sort of the digital landscape? Are you in the same room? Generally, obviously, if people are being put on tape in other countries or if I'm in New York and Los Angeles, there's a lot of self taping going on. If I can be there, I want to be there. I enjoy doing it. I enjoy meeting the actors and being encouraging to them. And I get a better sense of them, of course, if I'm in the room with them. Can you see through an, an actor's nerves and still say, no, that this is, I can still see that this is someone for us? You know, I think I can, I mean, if somebody is too nervous with me, I can't imagine what they're going to be like on a set. And that can be a problem. We have had to recast people because they have had nerves on the set. And I didn't think about that for a long time. But I guess what I would say about that is that it's my office's job, my assistant, my associate, first and foremost, to make an actor feel welcome, to feel comfortable. Because what they're coming in and doing is scary, of course. And they face so much rejection. So it's our job to make the audition experience as positive as possible. But, but someone who you have sort of made a star. The way that I view it is that certain projects shine a light on an actor. Think about Brian Cranston's career. I mean, I have nothing to do with that career, but he had been acting for years. And he does Breaking Bad. And so at that moment, the light shines on him. Ellen Lewis comes in and shines the light. Well, the director shines the light. You're so humble. No, it really is. I really feel like if a director is a, is a good director, the actors look great. And, you know, when you see a movie, sometimes you go to see a movie and you think, Oh my God, all these actors are terrible. You know, I hate to say it, but I think it is, you know, it is the director. One thing that I think you're particularly amazing at, as a passenger, is putting the whole ensemble together and all of your movies and good fellas and gum, the cohesiveness of it. How do you work with that? Are you looking, is this something you think about through the whole process, how people are working together? Yes, I'm thinking about the faces. I'm thinking about who the leads are in the movie. And I actually enjoy casting what you might call as the day players, probably more than I like casting the leads of a film. I love reading people for tiny roles and seeing where they fit. Because, you know, everybody down to having one word is very important to the whole piece. And if a movie is well received, an actor will actually get noticed for something small. What about casting biopics or real people? Is that a different process? You know, it is, but something, you know, I've obviously primarily done that with Martin Scorsese. And what we like to say is that what we look for is the essence of a person and not a look alike. And so, you know, the aviator, Cape Lynch had clearly is a phenomenal actress and was able to embody Catherine Hepburn without being a look alike of Catherine Hepburn. And I mean, I worked on Hyde Park on the Hudson with Roger Michelle, who always had Bill Murray in mind to play Franklin Roosevelt, and I think it was a brilliant idea. I think that if you give an audience enough, they're willing to go into the world of a movie. And their imaginations allow them to embrace that person and not say, but they didn't look exactly like that. I don't think it matters. I'm so proud of you. Now, this is going to sting a little bit. Oh, this is useless. Come to the bathroom. Don't get beet juice on the carpet. I won't. Ah, too hot. Don't be a baby. Was the press there? What the? When I listen to you, it really sounds like it's almost like a gut feeling, which I just felt something. Those are the words. Is it that way? Yes, it's intuition. There's some intuition. And I think Marian talks about that in the documentary. There is an intuition about who I think about for something and feeling that they're going to be right for the project and thinking that they're going to be right working with a particular director. Because I also have a wonderful, long time collaboration with Jim Jarmusch. You know, again, Jim creates a very different kind of world than any of the other directors that I work with. And I love working with him. He's a great director. And I love that I have that relationship with him. And what about Spielberg, what's he like for you and the casting? He's really great. You know, it's a newer relationship. He's worked with other phenomenal casting directors over his amazing career, Juliet being one of them. My friend Denise Chami and my friend Debra Zane, he's worked with all those casting directors. They've done a great job for him. And I'm enjoying my time with him very much. Does he have another process, another way of working then say Scorsese? Every director is different. Every director is different. And their responses are different and the people that I'm, you know, again, thinking about, you know, might be similar, but a tiny bit different and thinking about what their sensibility is. How would he be different? You know, it's hard to say. I think, you know, I always say, Marty responds to dangerous, funny people. And you know, that's just a specific kind of person that I know he might respond to. I think that Stephen really, you know, responds to great actors. It's just a little bit different. And Jim as well, again, it's very hard to say you have to look at each of their movies and try to crawl into their, a little space of their brain. So that hopefully you're going to see people slightly in the same way that they do. And what does Jim respond to? You know, poetry, a little bohemian feeling, real with a left turn. So it's not like you're only researching the project that the directors are giving you. It seems like you're actually researching the directors as well to be able to see. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you see all their lots of their stuff before you start working? If it's someone new, like Spielberg, for example, do you? Yes. I definitely do. And it's something that I ask everybody in the office to do. You have to enter their brain. You have to look at their work and think about who they are and the world that they create. I mean, the director is the captain of a movie. They're the captain of the ship. So that's what everybody, I think, kind of film is trying to do, but of course, bringing your own creative sensibility to that process. I was thinking about this when I was watching the incredible documentary casting by. If anyone hasn't seen that, essentially about another casting legend, Marion Doherty, that I've never heard in the Hollywood community, such generosity, you're all, you all always using words about collaboration and community and being an apprentice and it's pretty amazing. I don't think in all the interviews I've done in Hollywood that I've heard, is it really like that? It's really a community for you. Yes, it is a community and I was going to mention Marion and I should have mentioned Marion before this because I proudly consider her my professional grandmother, obviously Juliet worked for Marion for so many years and definitely the way that I work was handed down from Marion to Juliet to all the other people that you see in that documentary. See, I think what we do, I think the reason we are a community is because what we do is very hard for people to understand and I think that also it's the kind of job where a lot of people feel like, "Oh, I could do that, oh, I know how to do that." But the fact is that not everybody can do this and it is something that generally is learned by exactly what you said, it's like an old-fashioned trade where you do apprentice to somebody and I feel so proud of being a part of that lineage and being a part of the casting community in hall, I do. Because what I think people don't understand, not only finding talent and this incredible creative collaboration you have with the directors that you were talking about, you're also, I understand scheduling, negotiating, I mean, it's a huge, you're following this actor and this movie for a very, very long time, I mean, which I don't think people understand. I think you're right, people don't know, yes, we negotiate the deal, we have to keep close track of the schedule, you know, we work very closely with agents and it's, I know that Martin Scorsese has recognized this in my work that I'm with a project, even though after they start shooting, I like to have the casting done, I don't want the director to have to think about casting once they're shooting, but, you know, I am probably doing some small things throughout a shoot, but you're absolutely right, there's a lot that goes into this. But I think the other reason that what we do is somewhat mysterious and, and, and the reason that it goes unrecognized in some ways is because what we do is very private. And the reason it's private is because actors are human beings, they are not inanimate objects, they are not a piece of film that's being edited, they're not a piece of the clothing, they're not a location, they're people. And so when you say no to an actor, that's very delicate. It's all very delicate because they're a person and they're putting themselves on the line. So you're not talking that much about the process because you don't want to broadcast who didn't get the role. Why why why is there still no Oscar for casting? You watch the documentary, I don't know. I just don't know. I don't know if, you know, as the documentary says, because casting used to be done through the studio with people who worked for the studio or because I, you know, I just don't know because as you say, like also, it's like there's no movie without someone to do our job. There is no movie. There's, you know, nothing for the costume designer to do and nothing for the production designer to do or all of these other jobs, if it weren't for what we do. They have made a branch though, right? We are. We are cast and we are a branch in the academy, which is fantastic that that happened. You know, I think we are more seen than we, than we used to be, but we need to be even more seen. You have finished or you are casting a vinyl, of course, this is new HBO series. I cast the pilot. And that's set in 1970s, drug fueled New York rock and roll scene. What were you looking for there? How did that process go? Just what you just described. Yeah, no, it was fantastic. Where did you look? You know, I was looking at actors who would embody that time period. And it was a lot of fun. We had worked on this project a couple of years back and it didn't end up happening. And then when we got back to it, everybody knew Bobby Connavalli a little better at that point. It was someone we had discussed previously in the initial phases of the project. So it was fantastic, you know, that Bobby got the lead in the show. So this is my story, clouded by lost brain cells and then maybe a little bullshit. You know what? How about I shut up, put the record on, drop the needle and crank up the volume. I think it's going to be an amazing and really different role for people to see him in. There's a fantastic actor named Otto Asondo, who's playing a very important role of Lester Grimes. And this is a great example of what I do. Otto's an actor I've known for years and cast in many small roles. And there was nothing more thrilling than making the call to tell him that he was going to be a series regular on this television show. And you know, it's really exciting. Juno Temple is an actress that I immediately thought of when we started the process. Why? She really embodies that era for me exactly. And I called her agent and said, "Do you think Juno would think about doing a television series?" And he said, "What's the material?" And I told him and he got it to her and he said, "When can we set her up to come read for you?" Ray Romano is playing a very different role in this show than anybody has ever seen him play. And that's the exciting thing that happens in my role. And agent Colton says, "How can I get Ray Romano considered for this?" I don't know. I hadn't watched everybody loves Raymond that much. And he went in, put himself on tape. I got it the next day so he looks really interesting. Let me show it to Marty in our next casting session. And Marty loved him. So there's a story behind every person who you cast in something. There really is. And your next project? Can you tell? Yeah, I'm working on a film called Ready Player One for Steven Spielberg. I do one movie at a time. So that's what I'm currently working on. So you have two Spielberg movies coming out. Well, this one won't shoot until 2016. And also I'm co-casting with my friend Megan Rafferty because I was doing Steven's movie, a new movie for Jim Jarmish. Thank you so much for your taking your time. This was incredibly interesting. Thanks, Christina. Thank you so much. Thank you, Ellen Lewis. And thank you for listening to this week's pop culture confidential. Leave thoughts and comments on our Facebook page on Twitter, Instagram, or at popcultureconfidential.com. This show was edited by Mua Lashon, music by Carl Bori, produced by René Vite Steth and myself. Christina Yurling-Biro. Thanks for listening. Hello podcast fans. It is I, Bruce Valanche. For over 25 years I worked on the Academy Awards, so you didn't have to. In that time I've seen and heard things that should not be seen or heard or certainly felt. And now, for the first time, I'm sharing all my behind the scenes stories and firsthand knowledge about the Oscars, the blood, the sweat, the tears, the slap, all the things you didn't see. So join me as I use humor and insight to break down the Oscar Awards of the past to explain how and why your favorite movie didn't win, why some actors and some directors had to fire their agents and how the whole process works or sometimes doesn't work. This is the Oscars. What were they thinking, available wherever you get podcasts? [BLANK_AUDIO]