In this week’s FBA Podcast , Kamalashila introduces the fifth perfection: “Dhyana Paramita, the Perfection of Meditation.” Kamalashila is the author of ‘Buddhist Meditation: Tranquillity, Imagination, Insight’, an excellent manual on the practice of Buddhist meditation. Talk given at the West London Buddhist Centre, 2012.
Free Buddhist Audio
Dhyana Paramita, the Perfection of Meditation
(upbeat music) This podcast is brought to you by Free Buddhist Audio, the Dharma for Your Life. Our work is funded entirely by donations from our generous listeners. If you would like to help us keep this free, make a contribution at freebuddhistaudio.com/donate. Thank you and happy listening. - Well, I've been asked to give this talk about the genre, Permitale, and I think you're in the middle of this series on the six parameters, and Jyana parameter, or the parameter of meditation is the fifth of the six, the sixth being Pregneal parameter, or the parameter of wisdom. The word parameter meaning something like perfection, perfecting, perfecting. It's that which perfects. So, actually, each of the parameters becomes perfected by wisdom, that's how it works. So, the last parameter, the Pregneal parameter, is the real Pregneal parameter, is the real parameter, you can say. All the others are aspects of the spiritual life, that need perfecting by wisdom. So, you've got, and that's the wisdom of non-self, or the wisdom of, that comes from seeing through our assumptions about who we are, that wisdom that comes through real seeing through those assumptions and through those emotional, very strong emotional holdings on, to particular identities, the way we see ourselves, the way we see our world, those identifications are incredibly strong, and wisdom is when we're able to abandon those and be quite free of those. And you could say that the whole Buddhism is a training in Pregneal parameter, in that way. And it transforms the first four parameters of Dhanah, Shila, Shanti, Virya, giving ethical behaviour, which is, you could say, just an extension of giving. It starts off with giving, that primes the pump, if you like. You start realizing you can have a more generous spirit, and out of that comes all kinds of actions. So, the whole of ethics, like, you could be a nicer person, or you could be, perhaps not quite the right word, but you could be a more helpful person, out of that generous spirit comes. All of those ethical qualities, you could easily become a bit more truthful. You could easily be a little bit more contented, and less greedy. You could easily become, you know, more ethical. So, that's the Shila parameter, and then the Shanti parameter is the patience. Also, it's another aspect of ethics, really. But it's like a finer point, because you're able to deal more with suffering. That's the patience, the Shanti. And then there's the Virya, which is the putting more energy in. In a way, there's a lot more energy freed up through all these little freedoms up, if you like. And that's the very, you're able to put a lot more of your time, and you just have more of all of that to give to the practice. But it's only through the Pramila, or the wisdom, the non-self wisdom, or the wisdom that is able to abandon self-view or self-grasping. But these four parameters become perfected, become more freed up, and more, you just become more of that, everything becomes more available through the principle of wisdom in that sense. So that the dhyana parameter, the parameter of meditation, is the same, you know? So we, just putting it very simply, we learn meditation, we practice meditation, we're all doing that. But as wisdom starts to change us fundamentally, change who we are, change who we think we are, change everything about our understanding of ourselves and our world. And it just transforms the meditation practice as well. And that's the way that the dhyana parameter becomes a parameter, and isn't just jhana. Jhana means meditation, it just means meditation. But dhyana parameter means meditation that's been, that's been worked on by wisdom. So it has this transforming effect. It's made dynamic and spontaneous through one becoming just more real, and more spontaneous, and it's been freed up, you know, in the deepest part of oneself. So that's basically it. I might as well stop there, you know? But I will say more. Really, dhyana, or meditation, is the whole field of meditation, all the different kinds of meditation practice that we do. At the moment, most of us are doing a fairly small and rare range of practices, and that's very appropriate, you know? We don't have time to do much else, and it's good to stick with, you know, what works. It's good, it's good to train in what's called integration of mind, through the mindfulness of breathing, concentration. It's helpful to all of us, you know? We're subject to so much destruction, that, in a way, the more concentration are better. But at the same time, it's not enough, because you can be a very concentrated person, but you can be very lacking in other parts of departments of your life, you know? You probably all know people who are totally very focused, but actually, they're not available to anybody else, somehow, and they're a bit sort of narrow in a certain way. Well, we could become like that, too, you know? So, there needs to be a certain balance in the practice, there needs to be also a loving mind, as the other aspect of meditation practice is developing, a loving mind developing, and opening up to use this word developing all the time, it starts to sound a bit wrong, but it's also opening up to stepping into a more generous heart, and more empathy and more realisation that other people really do exist, you know? Et cetera, you know, that sort of practice that we get from the metabharvanar, and if you want to develop like more as the other meditations that are based on the metabharvan, like the karunar, the compassion meditation, meditation on sympathetic joy, moody-tah, and the meditation on emotional equanimity, and those are the brand of the ha-ra meditations, and also the meditation on, well, it's called the Maha karun, of the great compassion, which is compassion, that again is affected by wisdom, in which there's some reflection of wisdom, so it becomes even more transformed by the practice. So, it's an incredibly rich feeling, I've only talked about with five meditations, so there's literally thousands of Buddhist meditations, but they all have that, they're all rooted in those animals, actually, they're all rooted in concentration of mind, in a loving mind, and also in insight, or Pragnyaar. So, there is that connection, but especially in the area of wisdom, there's a huge range of different practices. I might say a little bit about that later. You know, so I wanted to give a sense of the richness of it all, but it's not only the whole field of meditation, it's also the conditions for meditation. So, you know, we meditate, and we come to the class tonight, and it's relatively easy for us all to meditate deeply, or more deeply, just because we come together, you know, there's an atmosphere down there, and that shrine, that we've created just by coming together, and that's a condition for meditation, but isn't usually there in our lives. And that condition for meditation has come about because we have this, you know, we have commitment to it, you know, it shows, you know, you can feel it in the room. So, that feeling of commitment, you can create for yourself at home, but it would need to be really strong to have that sort of effect. So, but you can develop it on your own, and it's in a way that a lot of Buddhist practice is about developing that feeling of connection with the practice, and a feeling of a sort of present commitment to it, that creates an excellent condition for the practice. And you could say some of those conditions would be the other parameters, you know, it would be those ethical things done, having tried to be more generous, I mean, a generous mind, having more, having a more loving mind, more helpful mind. But there are other things one can do as well, such as chanting, you know, chanting, puja, maybe having a shrine, having all these sort of helps that can help create the right kind of atmosphere. Another really good condition for meditation is going on retreat. So, in a way, on a Tuesday night, you go down to the shrine, and a lot of other people are there meditating. It's a bit like, for 40 minutes, there's a little retreat. Well, sometimes, here at the centre, they organise them weekends, or even the whole week, I think, in the summer, when they go away and have a retreat, and a couple of us at least are going to go away for a whole month in Butterfield in June, we're going to have this totally emotional retreat, and there are lots of other retreats that are organised in our movement. So, that's a really helpful condition you already know about for meditation. So, Deanna Perimitar covers all of that. And, you know, if you have the conditions right, you just feel freed up to work directly on your mental state. I think that's how it works. You know, in that shrine room, everyone's sitting around you. Okay, you're there, you decide to be here. There's someone at the front, ringing the bell, they say a few words, and you feel that you can really put those into practice because all the conditions are there. Your mind is receptive and open, and, you know, for a while, for a brief respite in the rest of your life, and that's really what the conditions are about, creating that sort of sense of space, I could say. So, there are these two aspects of Deanna Perimitar. There's what's called shamatah, and there's what's called the passiona. Probably heard these words at one time. I don't rather shamatah. It means the kind of meditation that's concerned with calming the mind, stabilizing mind, making the mind rich and receptive, big mind. Sort of, the sort of state of mind that comes from mindfulness of breathing practice, but it also comes to some extent from metabhavana, from that loving mind. The calm, a bit like the still lake, you know, without the wind, even roughly in the surface. It's completely still. And that's called shamatah. It's also called jjana. It's also called jjana. And in a way, when we talk about jjana perimitar, that's mostly what we're referring to, actually, it's shamatah, meditation. And when the, when it becomes perfected by wisdom, or when the wisdom starts entering the scene, and having an effect on the, the de-anarized consciousness, or the shamatized consciousness, then it starts to become what we call vipassionar. And the passionate meditation is the meditation that's directed towards insight, or seeing things as they really are, beyond our suppositions and assumptions, which go very, very deep, and have very deep roots. You can't just cut off, you have to pour them right up. So, shamatah, meditation, or jjana, compassion on meditation, or Pragna, really, that's how it works. And we can see it in terms of karma work, and dharma work, 'cause there's another way to look at it. We look into it in terms of the kind of conditioning you're entering into. The Buddhism sees our existence as one in which all kinds of different conditions affect everything, including what we call ourselves. You know, so there's, in a way, physics. You know, there's physics, there's gravity. You know, there's electricity. All these are really big conditions. There's, you know, if it wasn't for gravity, things would look very, very different. We'd be floating around, or our bodies wouldn't hold together. It would just be totally very, very different. Let's not go there. So, gravity's very important, right? And it's important condition under which we live our lives. It makes a big difference. And there are all kinds of other principles of physics that deeply affect us, you know, the deeply affect everything that happens, not the weather, ecology, all those things. Although when I say the word ecology, we start to get into another area of conditioning, which is biological. You know, it's like how the way our bodies work, the way the elements, I was talking about the elements and the meditation, the way the elements are out of harmony, sometimes all in harmony other times. And it's that biological nature that we've got. It's another aspect of conditioning. We can't do anything about that either. You know, we're born like this in these rather strange forms. You know, I don't often have a chance to sort of ask these questions, but, you know, these beings with two eyes looking at each other with arms they can wave and hair and getting older and you know, all these strange things that are products of our biological conditioning. And then another level is a bit like the levels of conditioning, more, you know, the physics being very basic than the biological and then there's the mind, or the automatic mind. So for example, it's the way our senses convey information. It's a way that we're conditioned by the way our mental faculty works. This is a bit mysterious, but the scientists are getting into this area now with neuroscience and so on. It's just very interesting, but it's a conditioning. We don't really, we can't really do anything about, but at the same time we're aware that it's a strong influence upon us, where the brain works, the way our nervous system works. It's slightly different from biology because it's mental and it's volitional, but unconscious volitional, if you like. So there you started to get to the area where your conscious mind can start to have an influence upon the condition, it's not completely passive. So here we're getting into what we call a Buddhism, but the conditioning of action where you can influence your world, you can change your experience. The rest, it's just happening. But this bit, you can change a little bit. And this is called, in Buddhism, this is called karma, which just means action actually, just means activity. There are names to the others, but I'll bore you if I tell you what they are, you can look them up. So this is the realm of conditioning called the karmic, karmic, which is ethical, because you can create a better world, or you can create a better experience. And you can do all kinds of things. You can do that for other people as well. So that's the sort of karmic level of conditioning. And that's where meditation works. It works in that area, in Jhana works, in this karmic aspect of condition because it's in meditation that you can feel all the other conditioning factors going on. But you can choose to become more calm. You can choose to take your attention under the breath. You can choose to allow yourself to open up. All these things are karma. You're creating something. You're creating a new momentum. You're not just sitting there, watching or experiencing all the thoughts and impulses just going through your mind, which would be just the mental conditioning without any intervention, if you like. There's an intervention with the karma, the karma near where it's called, the karma level of conditioning. So with meditation, you're working with the, what's called the karma or the karma. But that's with the shamata. That's with the calming aspect of the meditation. When the wisdom comes in, there's another layer of conditionality, which comes about when you start to realize that things are not conditioned by, they're not really influenced by itself. You know, the self-grasping that we have changes our whole perception, limits our perception. When we start to let go, that those tendencies of self-grasping or grasping onto an idea of who we are. In all kinds of ways, in many, many ways. When that starts to loosen up a bit, we've all had some experiences of that loosening up, I'm sure. It starts to change the way life happens. It's a whole conditioning factor. So there's supposedly a level of conditioning that comes into operation, when that is let go. That's called the dhamma near or the condition of reality. It's the way things actually are. When those illusions are let go. So meditation works with the, it works to some extent with the manner, with the mind conditioning, with the automatic mind functioning, like the nervous system and so on, because that is affected by looking and experiencing, as you do in meditation. But there's also the ethical aspect. But the wisdomside, the pranyaar parameter, the perfection, works on the dhamma, on the conditioning level, which is beyond self-grasping. So this is a little bit hard to understand, but at the same time, maybe you get a sense that there are these potentialities in our existence now that you can actually get a little bit of a taste of. So that's jyana and that's jyana parameter, the perfecting or the perfection aspect of meditation, or meditation when it's acted on by wisdom, or by the beginnings of wisdom. In a way, there's not a lot in, trying to find stuff in the traditional texts about jyana parameter. And they all just seem to go on and on about getting away from your family and stuff like this. There's go on and on about leaving your husband, you know, get away from your family, get away from your responsibilities. Just let all that go. Don't you see that you're going to die and, you know, it gets you to reflect on death and reflect on all the ugliest aspects of the human body and all this stuff in a way to persuade the reader that they need to meditate. And I think for us, it's not quite the same. I mean, I'm sure it's not a bad thing to reflect on the sort of, what you could say, the negative aspect of the group and the way it can sort of hold you back and all that sort of thing. I think we're so used to that. We're actually quite familiar with that. And we also already appreciate what meditation's about and we already appreciate the value of retreats and so on. I think society must have been very different when that stuff was written. You know, I can't argue with a lot of what's said, but at the same time it seems to me that what we need to focus on is a slightly different thing, which is yes, go away, create the right conditions and meditate, but you are already doing it. You just need to do more and appreciate what you could do with it. I think that's probably more than what we need to learn about. So sometimes I find the traditional text aren't always of value to us in terms of immediately putting into practice. In principle it is, but in practice, I think there's so much that we can discover from the practice we already have. So I think for us that that would be the beginnings of not only ji, you have the beginnings of ji already, but the perfection of jian, or the jian apparently time. So I think I've said enough there. I've said it all in the first three or four minutes, but I've said it a bit more length. And if there are some questions, we might be able to make a finer point and draw it out a bit further. What do you think? I suppose we're interested in talking about the conditioning factors of your physical body. Yeah. On your mind because there's a chap who's who's talking to jian island about artificial intelligence and I just don't really say that they're coming up against barriers and they're trying to kind of have a mind by itself, so to speak, sort of realise that there's like memories and all sorts of stuff to do with your physical sensations of being embodied. You know, this idea of having an abstract intelligent mind. Yes. So you need to know that to have actual intelligence you to be embodied somehow. It's quite interesting to hear the body kind of have a mind as well. It's certainly but a tradition. You don't have disembodied spirits in Buddhism at all. You know, they're all perhaps always sort of mythic or mythological or rather strange sort of beings floating around and some put his text. They're all embodied. Their bodies may be very subtle. They may be just like a colour. You know, but at the same time there's some kind of embodiment. There's always some kind of embodiment. You don't have disembodied spirits floating around. I hope that's helpful. Is that really sharing? I was just, just take this opportunity to plug the International Retreat actually. Oh, yeah. Because you were mentioning the possibility of retreats and how wonderful those traditions are to deepening our meditation practice. And Joe here, we're sitting next to you, we're telling me that you're going to the International Retreat, aren't you? Yeah. And there might be more people going. And it's a taro logo, which isn't well. So it's the first weekend of June, isn't it? On the ship we'll be there as well. Yeah, I'm giving a talk. In terms of workshops maybe. Yeah, I am, yeah. And so the idea is... You get to camp as well. Yeah, you get to camp. And it will be about 500 people coming together and meditating and doing... You know I'm just going to be there, I think. Are you going to be there? Is that right? What? [laughter] International retreats. [inaudible] At first weekend of June? [inaudible] Well be, yes. [laughter] Yeah. I think rather probably. [inaudible] Well the probably will be there. I think he's going to do some storytelling and some workshops as well. It's usually a few hundred people. It's quite, it's a bit like a little festival. It's only four days, actually, I think. Yeah, so I think so. And some of you have been to Tarkoo in your sepugias, which are usually about seven people. So imagine doing a project with about 500 people. [laughter] So when you just think about it, there's more information on the website, of Tower of Christ. Or Tower of Christ. Or Tower of Christ. You can bring your kids and all of you've got on your children. Anyway, just plugging that. Yeah. I'm asking about the wisdom. Yeah, anyway, that's the most interesting thing about it. I don't know, that's good. [laughter] If you were saying about meditating and wisdom coming from it, or is it what you were saying that the wisdom is a natural product? Yeah, I didn't say, I didn't say anything about the method of wisdom, do I? No. I just talked about wisdom being this, you know, being this thing beyond our preconceptions and all that stuff. I didn't say anything about how you develop it. That's a bit of something I missed out. Partly because, I think, is it next week? Someone's going to be talking about the parameter. So, I think it's just really. But anyway, I'll just give it all going away. And you can say it again tomorrow, next week, because it always bears repetition. It's always different from a different person. Well, I mean, you've got so many methods of meditation on wisdom, that they usually reflections on your experience being empty of self, or empty of any real essence, or any real... You know, we have this assumption that I am me. And it's true, I am personally. And you aren't as well. But I mean, there isn't really anything objective that is holding that together. You know, is it your brain? Where is it exactly? Is it in your body? Is it floating above your body? Et cetera. So, have all these reflections on just getting yourself to see that it's quite an unnecessary construct. And I think everyone when they're growing up, they need. They obviously need to have a healthy sort of sense of self, and to compete with other people. You know, whatever boys do, what goes, do they need to develop that? But after, after, after, when you become a mature person, you can actually look at that, and you can see, well, actually, I don't need, I don't need to think in that way, because it all works anyway. Life works without a strong grasp on yourself. And of course, you know, I'm not, I hope I don't sound as though I'm trying to, I'll let you know that I've completely freed myself from this illusion. Absolutely not. Because it's when, it's when, it's when, at times when, for example, you get very irritated by somebody. There's a very strong sense of what's different between me and them. That's ego. That's ego grasping. That's grasping at me that wouldn't do something as despicable as that, et cetera. Or when we really, really want something, more than anything else, as it were, very strong desire. That's a very strong sense of self. But a lot of this very strong sense of self leads to quite unhelpful behavior. So there's a direct relationship between ego grasping and unhelpful action. I mean, unhelpful to oneself and unhelpful to others. And often, unhelpful is a bit of euphemism. Like it's much more than unhelpful. It's downright damaging, you know, in all kinds of ways. So there's a direct relationship between wisdom, the cultivating, cultivation of freedom from self-grasping and behavior and just everything really. So I don't know if I can flip the answer to your question. But what I said was that the methods are usually in that area of looking in various ways at that. Another way it's done is through the idea of permanence. We tend to think everything's going to last. It's like when the sun comes out in the morning and go, "Ah, it's a nice sunny day." And you go out and you leave your coat at home and leave your room. And you really have a feeling that it's going to be sunny all day. Because we want it to be. Or, okay, all right, a bad example at the moment. At the moment, that's a bad example. But think of, all right, think of it in the summertime. When the sun's been out for a few days in England, I think people tend to think, "Oh, it's summer now." But it's going to be sunny. It's just going to be sunny. And then when it doesn't happen, there's a horrible disappointment. And then it all clicks back in again and you get used to it all over again. That's an example of a tendency to think things are permanent. There are a much more difficult examples, like people. I'm a friend of mine who's just died. I was completely surprised to find out that, you know, I knew he was going to die this year, probably. Because he had cancer. I knew he was quite advanced to cancer. But I was just thinking, you know, I'd arranged to go and see him in August to live in Spain. And then get the email. And you realize that? Oh, that's it. And it's just impermanence when you sort of expect permanence. You sort of expect things to last. But they don't. Of course, unpleasant things don't last either. It's good. We can somewhat craft and think that. And now this is unpleasant. I was just going to carry on like this. But that can change. So everything changes. I think that's the, the meditations on change, um, impermanence that nothing, that nothing lasts. And actually, when you look into it, there isn't anything to last. You know, what are the things that we think of that are lasting? You look into them and you can't exactly find a particular component behind it all that's supposed to be everlasting. And the meditations are also about, about that. Not only about impermanence, but about, um, the "thingness" that we attribute to our experiences, which we think are the kind of, the components that don't change. I don't know if that makes a percent. There are a few things in there, aren't you? Yeah. That's all. That's why there are these thousand meditation practices. It's all because there are so many different approaches. You could take as many approaches as there are different people, you know? What if the meditations on impermanence are, well, just look at your experience and see its impermanence? See, it's impermanence, so it's changing. We did a bit, a little bit in the practice today. You take your attention to breath and notice that it's changing. And that's almost like entertainment, isn't it? Oh, yes. At least I can enjoy something here, you know, changing breath. But if you take it a little bit deeper, um, it's a meditation on the whole of life. There's something there which pertains to everything that happens. It's never the same from one mode to the next. And the bit that you're comparing with doesn't really exist. You know, the bit that you're comparing that is happening and the bit that hasn't happened yet, that bit could actually be analysed in lots of different bits because there isn't any one bit. This is making any sense. But I think this really gets into it, you know. Our experience is actually so covered over by our assumptions about permanence, that you won't believe it, you know? And this is very transformative, you get into it, it's very transformative. I think there's six elements of meditation that's making me think of this. Is that my experience, that meditation with the pamanda, that really brings home impermanence to me in a way that's very... well, almost, I think, actually, that's certainly very strong. It's sort of wonderful, but it also opens up a lot that you're not accustomed to thinking about. So it's a, it's at least surprising. It's a bit more about it. At the time I experienced it, I thought, I felt a bit like I was floating free or something. But not necessarily a very good way because... Yeah. Oh, when I realised that it's all changing and none of it exists, sort of, because it's not going to stay around. Well, none of it exists substantially. Exactly, exactly. So it's not sort of permanent. Then I sort of ended up feeling a little bit more, "Who am I? What is it? What is this?" And we had a brief, well, I was in discussion after the meditation back then. And somebody said it's quite important to do it since I've met her after, or around it. It's just sort of, you know, bring things back, sort of, in a way, but it changed, actually. I think that the first time I did it, I was a bit scared, really. But I've done it a few times since then, and I really, I think it's a great meditation. You just, you can, I feel it's letting go of something in a better way than the first time I did it when I felt a bit. Yeah. To cut loose from being grounded, although... Yeah, well done. It sounds like you're really engaged with that practice. It does take, everything takes work to do well. Sometimes you, usually when you start off, it's not, you know, it's not, it just needs working on, doesn't it? And it might, you might not get it at first. I think the six-hour approach, you tend to get it. Some of these, some of those meditation can seem a bit abstract, you know, when I was talking about that. The bit, which bit is it, the changes, and there aren't any bits that change. It just sounds incredibly abstract, and somebody was ears, I'm sure. You know, it's not abstract. We're talking about a spirit, real experience, the depth of experience, which you don't usually see. But something like the, the six-element practice where you're looking at the earth element in your body and you're realising that you don't really own it. And we tend to think that I, I own my legs. You know, they are, that is my leg. You're, you're, you're, you're touching there. Oh, that's my foot you're treading on there. In what sense is it yours? You know, in what sense is, what do you mean by that? It's, it's sort of, it's sort of, opens up that, that sort of question. That's the, the inquiry of wisdom of a passion or, or prep now. I haven't done it on my own yet. I think we should leave a little bit for Yasha about it next week. But maybe we're getting them well primed for you. I can't hear you so much. What's the name of the meditation that you talked through a year last New Year's Eve, which ended in the spider's web? Oh God. Spectrum at the top, opening up and then going. There's a kind of impermanence that the wind will just catch on the spider's web and sunlight at the same moment. Bring up the spectrum and then it's gone. And then you closed it down again. Sometimes you just don't know what goes on in people's heads, where you lead the meditation process. You talk to them. Was there a diagram? Is it a diagram? Was it, was I doing the meditation on, on conditionality, for example? Would I do meditation on 24 new downloads perhaps? I don't remember. I don't remember doing that one. I don't remember looking through the meditation where you rise up and see the spectrum and then you close it to all down again and it's a specific network. Oh, I think I know what it is. It's the super visualization. Yeah. STU, not STU-P-O-R. But STU-P-A, which is a, well it's a monument actually. You can see physical stupas. But essentially it's a representation of the six elements. So you have Earth, which is a geometrical cube, a beautiful yellow cube. Water element is a globe shape, white, like water holding together and then the fire element is a cone shape like a flame, sort of stylistically like a flame, red of course. And then the air or the wind element is like a sort of disc shape a little disc at the top of that like a source or something made of green. And you imagine these things. It's a visualization. You imagine the geometrical element. So you've got the wind element and then you've got the space element, which is on top of that, which is sort of like a dot or a drop, which is multi-colored. And that's where you've got that bit from. It's an iridescent multi-colored thing because it's, it's this magical quantity of space. And all around it, you visualize the whole thing in a blue sky, in an infinite blue sky, which is the element of awareness or consciousness. So you, it's a way to meditate on the elements by using a symbol, a visual symbol. And at the end of the practice, this is the bit you remember as well, you dissolve it all. It all dissolves. That the higher end of dissolve into the lower element. So you've got the space dissolved into the air. Air dissolved into fire. Fire dissolved into water. Water dissolved into earth. And then earth dissolved into the blue sky. And then the blue sky just goes... And that's it. Let's get into the practice. It's quite fun. Nice. It's very beautiful when you see them in the landscape. I don't know if you go to a deal or you see photos of them. It's very beautiful. Yeah, you wouldn't necessarily recognize them. And someone who's, some person is very thin. So it's kind of tough for one reason. Like marking someone's death. Yeah, they used as monuments for people. So ashes often going to students in the monumental one. And you wouldn't recognize all of them from the description I've just given you, which is a bit of a sort of, I don't know, a special kind of, sort of classic or stupid. But often the ones that... Oh yeah. Often the ones we see in the Buddhist landscapes are more like that. Yeah, but probably about the size of the West Island Buddhist. Okay. You know, with a sort of stylized bit at the bottom and then a water element. And this would be the fire element. And you could just about see the wind element and the space element on top. Yeah, it's a little super. Supposedly came from originally, it was the Buddha's saying that, they asked, "What are we going to do with you when you die?" And he said, "Barry me in a stupor." And he folded his robe up in a sort of cube shape. You know, a yellow robe. And he took his begging bowl, which looked a bit like this, and he just put it on top of the robe, like that. So it was a bit like a water element. And some of the stupors in India are just that. They're just earth and water element. So, earth element in the passion of meditation is the solid bits, the body and the water is the flying liquid bits. I'm not timing this actually. I don't know how many. We've got 15 minutes left. Okay. Anywhere, one having another question about what I said in the talk. What I said in the talk. To clarify. Anything? I'd be interested if you could expand a bit on, like, what you said that we were having a discussion about what exactly dealing them at, using concentration. And maybe to just talk a bit around what is negative concentration, because it's, I don't know, for me it's always been a bit of a funny word. Which? The word "jano", you mean? No, the word "concentration". The word "concentration". Yeah. But there's sort of an intellectual kind of strain. Yeah. I can understand. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know whether in another word could be found. Yeah. When you're, when you're, when you're, you know, people say, "Concentrate", what I'm saying, you know. Concentrate on your driving. I can't say, concentrate. And the assumption is that you could actually make yourself do it. And I think you can make yourself do it for a few seconds. Maybe a bit more than that. But I think what we're trying to do in meditation is beyond all that willpower stuff. You're trying to get deeper than that so that there's no conflict. There's no element of conflict. And that would be actual jjana, where you're getting beyond the barrier of conflict, if you like. It gets easier naturally, you know. Without there being either resistance or openness to distraction. You know, that's another form of resistance in a way. It's like, actually, we're very open to being distracted. You know, sort of saying, "I've come along and distracted me, please." So, so I think the real jjana or the real concentration of mind would be that conflict-free integration of mind. In which your mind is naturally completely absorbed on what it's contemplating. You know, just like when, you know, you're doing one of your paintings and you know, you're really absorbed in it. And, you know, if the phone rang, you might not even hear it because you're so absorbed in it, you know. In a way that you don't have to concentrate. In a way that perhaps I think quite unhelpfully about that word, that you have to force yourself to do something that you don't really want to do. I think what you're talking about is that you're happy to be taken out of doing. It doesn't really need a lot of effort. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The effort's been made, or some of the effort is actually in relaxing. Yeah. You know, some of the effort is simply to actually create the conditions for the mind to come together. I think integration isn't a bad word, really. Just integration of mind, because it suggests that the conditions have just come together for it to happen without too much conscious willing, as it will. Obviously at first you do need, you know, there is a conscious will, there is a definite desire for it to happen. But you get more practice in not forcing it somehow, yeah. Sorry, I just think it's more like creative. Yes, yeah. You're creating conditions. Yeah, yeah. Other than making something happen. Yeah. Yeah, so you create the conditions and you can have a certain faith or confidence that is going to happen. You put all the ingredients in the bottle, you know, mix them all up and you can be confident that when you put it in the oven, it's going to make a nice cake or something like that. Because all the right ingredients. Yeah. I was a bit confused by this whole talk, because for some reason, when I read the email, I got it into my head, the word that you said means meditation, was actually connected with pleasure. Oh. I got it. How did you get that? Thank you. Yeah. Well, it should be a job. I didn't mean to suggest that it was. No, no, I didn't feel that you had. It was just that when you said meditation, I was like, yeah, it was a pleasure. Oh, wow. Oh, it didn't turn itself. Didn't any of it sound pleasurable. It did. But it was a work, it was a bit heavy. Oh. Well, look, when I'm talking, we're talking about this sort of freedom beyond suppositions and so on. Yeah, it sounds a bit heavy, but the reality of it is being a lot more playful, you know, and actually being a little bit more able to engage. And being a bit a lot more freed up. That's pleasant, you know. Being unwise and being caught in very unhelpful explanations of what the world is. It's painful, you know. Yeah. Wisdom is definitely a pleasure and so is genre as well. And having access to that so deep, well-spring of inspiration is definitely pleasant. Well, I've come to be more than pleasant. It's more than pleasant. About it until you're mentioning concentration and I knew what you meant about that quite stringing feeling. Yeah. And then I suddenly thought, it's often very pleasant when you feel present with things. Yes. And then I suddenly thought, "Hobber, is this too much for you?" Well, that's Ginanda, probably. Yeah. I forgot to make references to Ginanda's email. Sorry. Sorry. No. No. You're the secret evidence greased behind these emails, aren't you? Yeah. I mean, all I was just pointing out was that Buddhism does, you know, put an emphasis on that element as a pleasure. But I think Hinduism as well, I mean, maybe Hinduism gets maybe tends to get a bit stuck on this sort of pleasurable element. And I think Buddhism tries to, yes, in a sense goes sort of beyond that, but it does have a very positive attitude towards enjoying your practice. You know, it's supposed to be something that I think one should enjoy. I think Deanna, for me anyway, represents, to some extent, the element of pleasure in the spiritual life. Yeah. I sometimes refer to as bliss bunnies. Bliss bunnies. I think there's a slightly kind of Christian sort of derogatory sort of attitude towards what they say on their bliss bunnies. True. Yeah. It's just, they're nearly into pleasure. Yeah, they're nearly into pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. It's the poor, worldly people, they're just into pleasure. And it was actually, it's actually a stage on, isn't it, in a way? It's something to look up to, in a way, to be able to enjoy life to that extent. Well, I think my experience was that I was struggling with meditation, I'm always struggling with it. But it's time to struggle with meditation. And I talked to someone, I can't remember what it was, and I said, "Oh yeah, I'm struggling with meditation." And he said, "Oh, well, spend a bit of time finding what's pleasurable in it." And it was like, "Oh yeah!" So again, away from that concentrate into that, and it was just bringing in a different, and that, to me, is a bit of wisdom. Yeah, it is, yeah, definitely. Just bringing another view into the mix that allows those conditions to kind of balance back again. Yes. So, we have these very strong views of what we're supposed to be doing. You know, they're conditioned by what we've taken in, you know, like that. But then, if we do use the word "tyana," you know, often, the first thing you're thinking of is these levels of absorption. Yes. You mention them in your book as well. Yes. They mention quite a lot in Buddhism. Yes. But when you're meditating, you get into a state of more, getting more absorb, getting more culturally, then you enter this state, which is called first "tyana," and then you've got the second end of that, and fourth, and you've got another whole series. You've got loads of those kind of stages in meditation. So that's just another way of using the word "tyana," isn't it? Yes, it is. But you have not, in this talk, mentioned that use of that word. Do you know? But it does refer back, you know, in those... There is definitely this dynamic of pleasure and rapture and ecstasy going on. So quite really, really positive. But it feels very connective when you talk about the body of water. I found that a very calming, quite a peaceful experience. Yeah. But because it was very connected for me, it was a process of sort of connecting in with water. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I found that a good one as well. Yeah. I've been meditating for two and a half years, and I'm on a half a day. It's great. I love it. I try never to miss it, but I haven't gotten within a snippy distance or firsty arms or axis concentration, or anything like that, I don't think. I'm not bothered because the process is so satisfying. It feels nice, perhaps, maybe, to get this bit higher up. What would it look like? I mean, what would it feel like? I'm sort of clocked at this end. Can't hear you. What would it feel like to you? It's deeply static, I think, obviously, I've had constant meditations too. But most of the time, particularly the morning meditation, is extremely satisfying. I'll get a great sense of calm while I'm doing it, of being tied into a process. And then when I stop and get on with my day, I have this feeling of objectivity about life. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost not dissociating, that's too strong, but it's a little bit of distance. It doesn't make me remote. No. But does generally help me in my day? Yeah. I think if you're sitting for that length of time every day, you must be getting something out of it. You wouldn't do it otherwise. Oh, no, no. Have you ever been on a retreat? Have you ever been on a retreat? Yes, I've been on a retreat. Was it the same or different? It was different in that it was, of course, I can say, continuous. Yeah. You could take up, it was necessarily any deeper or higher or whatever. And initially, I was slightly disappointed because, actually, I have to say that in your book, you say something like anyone who's been doing it for three months or something should begin to get a sniff of this. I thought, well, not really, not me. But I mean, I do it because the person's good. Do you think you may have to revise your view, but what's so? I'm so sorry. Do you think you may? She thinks you might need to revise your view of what first yearner is. Maybe. I mean, I know a boss when I see a boss. Well, right. It wouldn't change. Anyway, please do have the wrong idea. I'm not a hard upper part of this book. Yes. You're doing it. You're so enjoyable. But back on the pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. It's all worth it. Yeah. No. I think it would probably be good to talk to someone about that if you want to know, you know, where you're getting to with it. Anyway, perhaps we should. Maybe this is the last one. Just coming out of meditation. Yeah. This is a lot of talk about meditation itself. The exit, sort of the leaving mat, coming back. Yeah. That can be jarring. Yes. Yeah. Especially if we're getting deeper into it. Yeah. You need to be careful. It's sort of dislocation is difficult and how to be sort of, well, how do you prevent sort of trauma from occurring? Well, I try and advise people to take it easy. And at the end of a meditation, I try to say, take your time when you come out of this. And I think that's the advice to give really. Each person has to do it for themselves. But it could involve a lot more than just not doing anything for a couple of minutes. It depends what you plunge into straight afterwards. This is not making any sense. Yes. I mean, that is the natural thing to do. But it's not always easy to get your mind back to sort of grounded, you know, grounded reality. I just thought perhaps there were some tricks or... Well, I think they are. I think they are. I need to talk to you. I mean, you need to talk to someone who can spend a bit of time sort of knowing, you know, what it's your life. I don't know your choice. I have no idea what goes on. So no one else has had the same experience. Of course they do, but they have it in a different form. They have it in a different form. They have different sensitivities. They have a different kind of life. They have different work. And they live in a different part of London. You know, they're all sorts of factors that actually make the absorption of the practice different for different people. I think just now. But generally, take all the time you need. And don't do things like making phone calls straight after meditation. You know, there's that kind of advice. I can't do any better than that really. But sometimes it might be good, you know, to have quite a bit of space in your life. You know, not do anything for a morning or something, you know. It's actually not so much that half an hour after. It's the minute. It's the quite, you know, for instance, we're coming back. Okay. Well, you're tuned into that then. You should be able to find out how to work with you. Yeah. It is a very individual thing. We hope you enjoyed this week's podcast. Please help us keep this free. Make a contribution at freebuddhistaudio.com/donate. And thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO]