Today’s FBA Podcast, “The Therigatha and the Problem of Self“by Dassini, takes us into the lives of the early bhikkunis. Two verses by elderly nuns, Dhamma and Citta, give rise to reflection on letting go of fixed self view as a major component of breaking through to Enlightenment.
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The Therigatha and the Problem of Self
(upbeat music) - This podcast is brought to you by Free Buddhist Audio, the Dharma for your life. Our work is funded entirely by donations from our generous listeners. If you would like to help us keep this free, make a contribution at freebuddhistaudio.com/donate. Thank you and happy listening. - I haven't quite settled on time to finish this talk. (laughing) I had a title and then I thought it was pretentious. (laughing) Which was, the Terry Ganta and the problem of self. - All right. - Yeah. - And then I went on to, pondering the self. So that's the, that's the whole park that we're in. So in looking at the Terry Ganta, there were two verses quite early on, which are short verses which spoke to me because, well, I can't imagine what a hard life that must have been through these people. A hard life for the monks, for the bikus, but I can't imagine what hard life it was, what hard life it was for the women, for the bikunis. Simply because I found it hard to imagine that they would automatically receive the same kind of respect that Sadhus did. Yes, so the bikus, the Sadhus, they had stepped out of society and they were doing something that was valid with their lives. And I just had it a bit hard to imagine that it was as accepted for as, yeah, as accepted for women to be living that life, apart from anything else, they just did have very, very hard lives. India is a very, it can be very inhospitable, hard landscape at times, beating merciless sun, rains, monsoon rains that washerly villages. Yeah, so hard life, hard life. Anyway, I picked these, I started off, I picked these two women, whose firsts spoke out to me because they were both elderly. And that for me just instantly throws it back into the human element rather than being these super human people doing this, going forth and becoming enlightened. Just two elderly ladies out there. And these two women attaining our hardship in old age. For me, there's just something quite tender about that. The first one is a bikuni called Dhamma. His name moves, Dhamma. So she was younger when she had the desire to go forth. But her husband wouldn't consent to her living to live the only life. So she just waited. She just waited until we died. And then she went forth. One day returning to the Sahara from Seeking Arms, she lost her balance and fell. Making just that, her base of insight, she won our hardship with thorough knowledge of the norm in form and in meaning. And triumphing, she uttered this verse. Far have I wondered from for my daily food, weedy with shaking limbs that I reached my rest, leaning upon my staff. When even there I fell to earth. Low, all the misery besetting with poor mortal frame lay bare to inward vision. Prone the body lay. The heart of me rose up in liberty. Yes, prone the body lay. The heart of me rose up in liberty. Very touching, very moving. It's a bit red element of these fantastic poems of a renunciant recluse, living a simple life. And one day, their bull breaks. They have very few possessions and their bull is suddenly in pieces and they laugh, yes. So yeah, I was just very touched by Dharma by being an elderly woman, falling. And that was the basis of her insight, the base of her insight, yes. So then I read on a little and I came to another elderly sister called Chitta. Now she, she went forth when she was a bit younger and you'll probably be pleased to hear it took her into her old age to gain enlightenment. (audience laughing) So maybe this isn't the most outflowing of my mood, I thought that was a comfort for me to confess that it wasn't until her old age that she became enlightened. But this verse really set off the thinking behind this talk, the one or two ideas behind this talk. So Chitta says, and again, she's elderly. So I'd be suffering and weak and all my youthful spring be gone. Yet have I climbed, leaning upon my staff, the mountain crest. Thrown from my shoulder hangs my cloak, or turned my little bowl. So against this rock, I lean and prop this self of me and break away the will during gloom that long has closed me in. Quite sensitive, yes. So I lean and prop this self of me and break away the will during gloom that long has closed me in. And this language of detachment here, this self of me, I just find very evocative. That really, this self of me is four tiny words really spoke out to me and are kind of leading me on the trail that I want to follow in this talk. But also the fact that she's talking about climbing a mountain. I think she has actually climbed a mountain. If you read this in the Norman translation, the K.R. Northern translation, she says the same thing, she goes up the mountain, she brings her stuff and her cloak and her bowl. But I think there is a metaphor here as well for rising above, yeah, for rising above the mountain and having, and therefore being afforded a greater vision, yes, a clear view. There is a sense of triumph, isn't there in climbing? So I think that Chitta has climbed, he's climbed the height metaphorically as well as actually. But I'm just fascinated by this. I lean and prop this self of me and break away. Break away the gloom that long has clued me in. So what I hear from that is that when in leaning back, she's putting down a view of what she is. She's putting something down that has been carried for a long time. And it's the view of self, yes. Now, there is some, I would say the sure sign of progress towards enlightenment is seeing through fixed self view. As I understand enlightenment, this is what I understand, one of its major constituents to be, which is seeing through fixed self view, or starting to recognize that there is a misperception about the solidity of self, yes. Starting to see yourself as a compound. I'm taking that very seriously. There's a term here for compounded put together, which is confected. I can't remember who it is that has used this term, but I love it because it makes me feel like a big fruit cake. You know, it's confected, and it's put together through action. Yes, when something is confected, it's put together through action. And it's lovely, it's lovely, but it's not for all time, yes. And so to see oneself, to start to appreciate oneself as a compound, that helps to listen this little bit of rigidity around I am, yes. So sometimes it's the big I am, but whatever it is, whatever the tone of it is, the bad I am, that little bit of rigidity, I think to see, to start to see the put together nature is the first step. And it's not that they're, it's just that when we forget to look in that way at ourselves and at other people, when we forget to do that, then it's as if somehow our identity is something is going wrong, there is a misperception, our identity does go a bit wrong. Because it turns from identity to over identification. Yeah, so quite often when I was ill, back at some years ago, when I was ill, one of the most positive, one of the most positively painful experiences that I would have would be over identification with my current state, my current state of body or mind. And it could be that I had an over identification with a temporary experience of wellness, yeah. And sometimes it was an over identification with my experience of pain and fragility, yes. So to notice it, to hold it is one thing, but to invest and to identify that was causing me pain and that was holding me back, whether it was through a temporary experience of wellness or a temporary experience of stability. So obviously, when we start to think about this whole business of seeing through a fixed self, all kinds of funny things come up, don't they, about no self? Now, we do exist. Look at us, here we are. We do exist and we're here, which means that we're not at home, yeah, which means somebody could be breaking into your house. Means that your garden is growing. There's consequences for you being here rather than somewhere else because your existence matters. We all have an effect in the world, yes. We do exist. It's just that the misperception is that we aren't quite as solid as we think we are. So, I read this thing by Zong Zai Rinpoche in his book, "What Makes You Not A Buddhist?" And he tells, he gives us this little picture. He says, "Imagine you're at the circus with some children." And my level three class might have heard me talk about this before, imagine you're at the circus with some little children and there is a conjure and he's holding a flaming brand, yeah? So, it's basically rushes tied together and it's on fire and he's swinging it, yeah? So, he's swinging it so that what you see is a wheel of fire. Yes, you see this incredible flaming circle full of momentum, yeah? And the children in the audience are completely captivated by this and they see and they believe in this fire wheel, yeah? And that's what it is, it's a real wheel of fire, yeah? For them, but actually what it is is a man with a working arm and a flaming brand and motion, yes? So, everything that the children are experiencing is happening, yes, that is existing, those experiences are happening, but there's a trick of perception, there's a misperception and I think that this is it with us. When we feel the self, we see the wheel of fire, yes? We see the wheel of fire because that's what presents, yes? Rather than having a bigger view of what the compound is, how that wheel of fire is confected, yeah? And the way in which songs our Empeche uses that image is to talk about feeling. He talks about when you have a very strong feeling, you believe it's real and so at that point, when you believe that that very strong feeling is real, then you see the wheel of fire, but he says that, you know, the adult doesn't go to the children and clip them on the back of the head and say, no, it's only an illusion, don't be stupid because that's not very kind, is it? They're having an experience and you don't, you're not uncompassionate towards that experience, it's just that as an adult, you have a bit more perspective, yeah? And I think that that's true of the over-identifying with a strong feeling and over-identifying with your solid experience with self, yes? It's just seeing that wheel of fire. So in the same way, to kind of slap yourselves on the back of the head and say, don't be so stupid for experiencing yourself, is not the way to go, it doesn't ever, it doesn't help. So a few years ago, I was on an order convention and I was doing a workshop on the Sati Patana Sita and it was on the bit about awareness of reality. And in order to get a sense of awareness of reality, we were doing these communication exercises, it was led by Vidya Mahal and Sadanandi. And I was paired up with another person and the exercise was to ask the question or be asked the question, what do you do to maintain self and you just automatically give an answer? And the other person says, thank you. And then they straight away, they ask you again, what do you do to maintain self? And you can't escape, you're there for 10 minutes. And they're just asking you this question, what do you do to maintain self? So for me, that wasn't it, that was quite a strong experience and I've used that question since, you know, for the last few years occasionally, I asked myself that in meditation, what do you do to maintain self? Because it's very subtle, isn't it? It's a very subtle question. It's like, what do I do to feel a fixedness? Something, something that's me, me, me, me, me. And the answers that I gave, and I think that this is true of all of this, probably the answers that I gave are pretty harmless. Yeah, they were pretty harmless, but they built up into something. The second part of the exercise, after what do you do to maintain self, is that then you've risked with your rather remorse, unrelenting, that's the question. And how would it be if you no longer did that? Which is a feeling question, isn't it? How would it feel if you no longer did that? Yeah. So I think for me that myself maintaining self, holding onto ego, is a bit like relentlessly or stubbornly rather, seeing the wheel of fire. I'm forgetting that it's a man who are working on a brand of rashes and motion. So then there's another nun who is reflecting on the same kind of material, and she's being taught here by Patachiro, who Surya Vanksa mentioned. Mostly these verses, there are two kinds of verses in the Teregata and the Teregata. The reverses which the elder themself speaks about themselves, or the reverses in which the Buddha says something about them, the Buddha sings a soul, proclaims a soul, the verse about them. And this is a self-proclaimed verse, but it contains within it the words of her teacher. So her teacher is Patachiro, the voice that you hear is Patachiro talking to this nun whose name is Butara. And she says, swiftly, baby your feet then sit you down apart, planting your mind in steadfastness with concentrated effort well composed. Ponder how what you do and say and think proceeds not from a self is not yourself. Ponder how what you do and say and think proceeds not from a self is not yourself. So it proceeds not from a self because procedures is important here, isn't it? Things are arising in you, independence upon conditions, and you're acting independence upon conditions and expedience, yes? So things are not proceeding from a continually self perpetuating being, yes? And what you do and what you say and what you think is body, speech and mind, it's you in your totality. So Patachiro is just asking her to ponder how, 'cause she's saying, well, yeah, you do act in the world, you do exist. You have some existence, but it's not self. It's not self, yeah? So then the question may arise is what is it? Now I just want to read you all of the first 'cause that was just a bit of it. This is the whole verse. Men in their prime with pestle and with quern, are busied pounding rice and grinding corn. Men in their prime gather and heap up wealth to have and nourish wife and children dear. Years is the task to spend yourself upon the Buddha's will which bring us no remorse. Swiftly, baby, your feet then sit you down apart, planting your minds instead fastness with concentrated effort well composed, ponder how what you do and say and think proceeds not from a self, is not yourself. The will of her whose fate, Patachiro, I heard and marked and forthward carried out. Bathing my feet, I sat me down apart. While past the first watch of the night, there rose low memories of the bygone line of wives. While past the second watch, the heavenly eye purview celestial like clarifying. While past the third watch of the night, I burst and rent aside the gloom of ignorance. So that's these three knowledges which we heard of earlier. So if it's not yourself, what the heck is it? Well, this being that becomes from the arising of this, that arises, this not being that does not become, from the ceasing of this, that ceases. This being that becomes from the arising of this, that arises this not being that does not become. The ceasing of this, that ceases. And thus, because we are compounded of various elements and various experience and various temperament, we proceed in the world. Yeah, we proceed in the world. Now, what all this is pointing at is that we are a flow of phenomena, yeah? But in order to appreciate that we are a flow of phenomena, without an absolute essence, yeah, without an absolute unchanging core, 'cause that's what the self is, an unchanging core. You need a particular kind of mind, where you need to train your mind. So if this seems alien, it's because our minds are not trained sufficiently. The quality of mind that we need is subtlety. We need to be subtle, positive, calm, and unravelled, yeah? We need to be subtle, positive, calm, and unravelled, yeah? We need to be unravelled so that we're not grasping. Now, having a strong sense of self is just what we have in the world when we grow up. And I was thinking about teenagers. And I was just thinking about how with teenagers, you see an awful lot of selfing, yeah? They maintain self a lot, and they need to. They're not doing anything wrong, they're not being seen. They're not doing anything wrong, they're not being stupid. But, you know, they've had their lives as children, and then their bodies have betrayed them with this puberty, and all this stuff happening in hormones and spots, and then their relationship with our whole family changes, they had a particular dynamic with their parents that all goes out the window, and they didn't complete turmoil and flux. So they reinvent themselves in packs, yeah? If they're lucky in packs. And there's a lot of selfing goes on to do with young. You know, the kind of teenage boys, all this funny stuff about how you walk, they suddenly start to walk in a particular way and hold their body in a particular way and wear certain things and listen to certain things in language yourself, very much in language, and suddenly everything is. Got all this weird language. And teenage girls, they're self-impacts as well. And like I said, it's not because they're doing anything bad, but not because they're stupid inherently. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with them. It's just that they're trying to become people in the world. And suddenly the teenage is experiencing off a lot, and it's the worst thing in the world is embarrassment. And I think the reason teenagers experience embarrassment is because suddenly there's the parent or the re-brother. Exhibiting a reality that isn't the one that they're trying to imprint on themselves. And to be associated with that value of that world or that level of childishness or that level of domesticity or authority is excruciating, yeah? Because they're busy maintaining self. And so embarrassment arises because it's not total. Yeah, and it's excruciating. And I was thinking about this for myself. Sometimes I experience a version to other people because they're not doing and being the things that I want in my universe. So I don't feel embarrassed by them, but I push them away. You know, I don't want to be seeing that. And it could be really quite, you know, it's a bit like how I could be feeling real irritation towards somebody because actually I consider them to be unmindful. So in a way it's quite tyrannical. You know, but I want to be having this experience in a sanger and I'm feeling irritable with somebody because they're not mirroring some bodies on me. You know, and myself is having a tantrum. Maybe it's just me, maybe you don't find that kind of thing. So, I was thinking about all of this business of how to appreciate the put together. Flowing nature of a human being. How to loosen a sense of being fixed and I came across this verse. And in this verse, this is one of the verses where it's the Buddha that's given a verse to one of the elders. And this is the Buddha speaking to a woman called Gita. But thou, sister, bound to other goals, line is it to break those fetters' five. The last of sense, ill though, delusion of the self, the taint of rites and ritual, and doubt that drag the backward to the hither shore. It's a very direct piece of teaching in this. This is the Buddha saying to Gita, these are the five fetters that you have to break. Here's, here they are. So, I'll put them in a slightly different order. There's doubt, there's dependence on rites and rituals. There's delusion of sense, there's ill will and there's craving, yeah. So, these five fetters are part of a list of the 10 fetters. The 10 fetters, 10 mental habits that we have to break in order to become enlightened. And I don't know if you've heard of this term, stream entry, it's a lovely word, isn't it? Stream entry, stream entry is when you break the first three is the, yeah. And what that means is that you've entered the stream of enlightenment. It means that your progress towards enlightenment is guaranteed, yeah. And so if you break the first three fetters, then you've, what they call, if you've entered the stream, you're a stream entrant. And if you break the first five fetters, then you're what's known as a non-returner, yeah. So that means that you no longer crave for rebirth. Yeah, you're a non-returner. So you will be reborn, but you'll be reborn in a realm where it's easier to gain enlightenment, yeah. So traditionally, how you break that, traditionally this whole business of the view of self and going beyond the view of self is in these fetters of doubt, dependence upon rights and rituals as ends in themselves. I'm seeing through a fixed self view, yeah. That's the kind of traditional thing of this whole question that I'm talking about. And stream entry has also talked about in the, in the spiral path, yeah. So on the spiral path, there's a particular point and it's called knowledge and vision of things as they really are, yeah. And this corresponds to breaking these fetters, these first two, or these first five fetters, seeing things as they really are. So what are things? What do you see? Well, you see that things are insubstantial on that they're impermanent and that they're unsatisfactory, yeah. That's what you see. You see that they don't have, that you see their essence most most, yeah. You see that they're transitory and you see that to grass, what it calls pain, yeah. You see, you see that things are compounded, that they're not, that they don't have an ultimate core, yeah. You see that things aren't self-perpetuating, but things arise in dependence on conditions. So knowledge and vision of things as they really are. And this is the pally name for the pally term as yatabhuta, nyanadhasana. Nyanadhasana is knowledge and vision. Knowledge and vision of things as they really are. And the things that is this Buddha, yatabhuta, nyanadhasana. And Buddha is the thing. So you see things, butas, yeah. Now this Buddha, I love this, 'cause this is, it means elements, yeah, so elements. And then the elements, as we know them, the elements are the Mahabutas, yeah. So they're water, air, they're the Mahabutas. But what does it mean, Mahabutas? It means great ghosts. Yes, so what everything is made of around us is made of great ghosts. That's so utmost treatment. (laughing) It's bit spooky, but I like it because it's telling you that the nature of this, of the things, the nature of this stuff, yeah, is mysterious. So the nature of the elements, the elements, isn't serious. So this building, this landscape, it's glam. You're surrounded by the great ghosts, yeah. So to see this, to be able to see things as they really are, is a very positive state to be in. Yeah, it's a very positive state to be in. It comes after faith, and independence upon faith arises joy, and independence upon joy arises rapture, and independence upon rapture arises calm, and independence upon calm arises bliss, and independence upon bliss arises concentration, meditative concentration, and independence upon meditative concentration is knowledge and vision of things at the year. So that's just taking back, taking me back to that business of the way in which we need to train our mind to see ourselves as having an unfixed selfhood, yeah, supple, positive calm, an unlawful, and also I think, content, yeah. I think to be content so that one no longer needs to grasp, yeah, so that no one no longer needs to grasp onto another person and onto oneself, yeah. And you see this when people do a lot of practice. You just, it's visible. It's like, I don't know how to, I'm getting into the realm of, I don't know how to use words, but when somebody's doing an awful lot of practice, it's like, it's like stuff drops away, you know, but like, I want to say bits of them drop off, but that's a bit horrible to say bit, you know? But maybe it is bits, maybe it's non-visible, unseen bits drop away. It's the holding onto being somebody that drops away, yeah? It's the holding onto being and having that drops away and something of a more core simplicity. No longer needs to be somebody. So, you can really see that with the bikunis and bikus that they have stepped out of society and they're not needing to be somebody. We don't have that support, yeah? We're in society, so what do we have to help us? I suppose we have the precepts, don't we? It's like we have the precepts to help us. Um, not try and be somebody, yeah? They're like a compass in that respect. So, um, in the list of the five factors, then, the fixed self view is broken, the view of an absolute permanent selfhood. That's broken before craving an ill will. Go figure, yeah? So, that's, I think that's very interesting. It's a, I think it's a requirement for craving an ill will to fall away, yeah? 'Cause what are they attaching to it? Or repelling from, yeah? So, I think the more that one works on craving an ill will, the more one is free to just experience, well, you know, you can just let go more. But we don't have to think in terms of, we don't have to think in terms of, uh, extinction craving an ill will in order to be moving. Quite significantly towards insight. Because these things take, they take care of themselves, don't they? So, I'm just thinking about a couple of things that I do to try and experience myself as not having a big soul itself, yeah? And one of them, well, they both fit down, actually. Interestingly enough, they have a bit down, but here we go. One of them in meditation, it's like trying to call up sensibility or feeling all about myself as if I could see myself with a microscopic view, yeah? So, you know what it's like? When you look through a microscope, everything is surrounded by lots of space. And there's all these little wiggly bits, yeah? But somehow relate through space, yeah, through all these big old gaps, yeah? And there's a feeling in that for me, and the space is the important bit of something expanded, yeah? So, the tight fist is relaxed. I'm just having a sense of myself as being composed of all these little bits in space, yeah? So, that's the microscopic view. And for me, there's a feeling in that that goes down into the gaps. There's a feeling in that of relaxing, yeah? And it kind of has a transforming effect on my consciousness. I get into a kind of moon, how can I have space? But it feels because it's an experience of expansion and letting go the tight knuckles relax me. There's something else that I do, which I mentioned in a class. An item was completely horrifying. She thought it was really macabre, but why, too, is when I'm walking, I'm walking to work. I try and experience my skeleton, yeah? So, it's just quite straightforward. As I, instead of walking, going me, me, me, me, me, definitely, definitely, definitely. You know that film I'm being John Malkovich, where you're like, he's like, Malkovich, Malkovich, Malkovich. It's all completely over-identification. There's something to try and loosen that off. Is that how I walk, try and experience my skeleton, yeah? 'Cause it's just very direct, very direct. It's like to feel the femur. The femur is on the pelvis and the little metatarsals moving. It loosens everything up and to feel the rib cage. And to remember, either the front and back ribs, which support the lungs, which are the bellows for breathing. So, again, to be confected. But feeling it in your body, feeling it in your body. Yeah, so, I suppose that we all know this, doesn't we? But we do know that we have constantly renewing bodies. So there's nothing about your body that you've had for very long. No, it's all that. It's all renewing itself all the time. So this brings about that. This brings to mind. Sanger actually has got this very famous analogy of the leaf. Yeah, which you probably have heard him talk about. It's very important part of his teaching. This is how he talks about insubstantiality. 'Cause if you consider a leaf, and you look at a leaf, it's got color and it's got form, it's got veins, it's got fleshy bits, it's got moisture, some bits that are harder than others. When it first came in, when it first appeared, it was smaller, and it was a little bud-like, and it looked like a little tree. And it was white, and then it uncarled, and it saw the sun, and it got color. And there's nothing, there's just, there's a process of leafing going on, yeah? There's leafing that's happening all around that leaf. Yeah, all in through that leaf. There's leafing that's happening. But there is, there's no bit of the leaf that's the actual leaf, yeah? That's the actual leaf part leaf. It's all leaf part leaf. There's no special thing of it in that leaf, yeah? It's just this process of leafing, yeah? And in a sense, when it finishes, there's no leaf, when it's finished leafing, there's no leaf. Yeah, so, the way Nagarajina would look at it is, it's not just that things are impermanent, it's that there are no things, yeah? There's no things, because what's holding them together? Well, there's no glue, yeah? There's no glue, there's just phenomena, yeah? Is it Virigoshi who says there's bare phenomena rose on? I know. So, I suppose I offer that really as just a basis for thinking, what do I do to maintain self, yeah? What do I do to maintain self? There's something about that in the language of me that's speaking to me. So, if it's not speaking to you, then translate it, if you can, yeah? Translate it into something that feels direct, yeah? How, what are your mental habits and physical habits that do it for you, referring back to an unchanging core existence, yeah? And how would it be if you no longer did that? So, I'm going to finish off with a word from "do" again. He says this, I don't understand, I understand a bit of this and then it gets halfway down and I don't understand it anymore. I don't think that's the word. To study the way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things of the universe. To be enlightened by all things of the universe is to cast off the body in mind of the self as well as those of others. Even the traces of enlightenment are wiped out and life with trace-less enlightenment goes on forever and ever. We hope you enjoyed this week's podcast. Please help us keep this free. Make a contribution at freebuddhistaudio.com/donate. And thank you. (upbeat music) (music fades) (music fades) (music fades) [ Silence ]