This weeks FBA Podcast, “Songs of the Elder Sisters” is one of a series of talks on the Therigatha, the songs or poems of the nuns at the time of the Buddha. Here, Gunasiddhi gently explores the three themes of Going Forth, Friendship and Impermanence through these tender yet powerful stories.
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Songs of the Elder Sisters
(upbeat music) This podcast is brought to you by Free Buddhist Audio, the Dharma for your life. Our work is funded entirely by donations from our generous listeners. If you would like to help us keep this free, make a contribution at freebuddhistaudio.com/donate. Thank you and happy listening. (upbeat music) - Okay, so this came about because a while ago, I was in a meeting with Sirivamsa and I was reporting in that I was reading the Terry's and feeling inspired by them. So he said, "Why don't you come on this anger retreat?" 'Cause that's the feeling. So here I am. And recently I was listening to an interview on Free Buddhist Audio and it's with the poet Kathleen Rain and Banti. Some people might have heard it and they're talking about poetry. It's quite funny anyway. And so they end up talking about, they agree that poetry can come from different levels of consciousness. So they agree on that. And Banti starts talking about when he was in India and people would go to poetry readings and what it was was most of the audience was illiterate. So they're listening to the poems with different ears to the way we listen to them. They're listening for their soul, although there's no soul. He does use the words so. So that's what I think with these poems, people who are trying to, these women were trying to communicate a certain level of experience. That was the reason that they were writing the poems or singing the songs. And so we're listening to them with those ears. (clears throat) So we've already, this has already been said, the terries are the elder nuns and garter is poems or songs. So that, I think in that feeling, you know, when you're listening to something, you just have that longing. I hope this is gonna speak to me. Sometimes open a book and say, please let would be something true in here or something. And it's sort of just satisfying if it's a bit superficial and just slips over the top. So that's how they would have been listening to these poems, just sort of longing to hear something true. So when I was reading them that time when I was saying I was enjoying the terries, it's a different thing when you're reading something for your own interest. You know, it's just, oh wow, this is great. So then to write this talk, I've had to step back a little bit and think about what it was they were saying to me, what that was in my life. So as soon as we've done this thing already, so Sue Vamps' talk was a real Dharma talk. I'm okay if I ever saying his was a fairy tale. Disguise there's a real Dharma talk. A real Dharma talk, this place is great. And I suppose I'll say, well, what's mine? I suppose it's just like little snippets. I couldn't really get something that flowed together. So I've picked out sort of themes that sprung out for me. So it's more like little reflections on what these mean in my life. So I suppose you could say it's a garland. Okay, so the three themes were going forth, friendship and impermanence. So first going forth. So all these women went forth from their situation which at that time in India was quite limited for women. They could be a wife or one of several wives or a courtesan or a servant or a member of a hiring. But basically what they were doing, although they were going forth from their conditions in themselves, they were going from false refuges to true refuges from Samsara to Nupana or the Buddha talks about from the ignoble quest to the noble quest. And they went forth for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they had really incredible experience of pain and loss, five keys to go to me, lost her baby. Sometimes just hearing the Dharma just answered an inner longing that they had already. Sometimes they were left just without a male provider for all sorts of reasons. Maybe their male provider went forth and became a monk. So they were left without a male provider. So they became a man. And maybe it was a bit for security and support of the nuns. Some really didn't want to get married 'cause they saw through the shackles of domesticity. But there's also a story for a nun who really wanted to get married, but the first man she picked dropped dead the day she picked him and she wasn't allowed to choose another one because that was considered a bad omen. So she was a reluctant nun, but she did gain insight. And then yesterday we heard about Bada, who went forth with her husband, although as a Moga Fadra, they described very well. They didn't consummate the marriage. In a way that maybe seems ideal. They both agreed to go forth. So I thought you might be interested. I just slotted this into here about Bada. So Bill and... Where'd you write? Sorry, it's the men of poison. This probably won't mean anything to you, but we heard a story yesterday from a Moga Fadra. And so the husband goes, takes the fork on the right and Bada takes the fork on the left. And whereas he meets the Buddha quite quickly, she has to live in a, well, not has to choose us to live in a community of non-Buddhist eschatics, female eschatics for five years. Then she meets the Buddha, gets ordained, gains enlightenment. And then she joins the order of nuns started by Maha Prachapati, the Buddha's aunt. And she then teaches younger nuns when she's enlightened. So her story has a happy ending to me. So continuing with this theme of going forth, this is another poem by Anon, a great writer. The only thing we know about her is that she's Sumangela's mother than Sumangela's a monk. So the poem is Sumangela's mother's poem. Free, I am free. How glad I am to be free from my pestle. My cooking pot seems worthless to me. And I can't even bear to look at his son, Umbrella. My husband disgusts me. So I destroy greed and hate with a sizzle. And I am the same woman who goes to the foot of the tree and says to herself. Ah, happiness and meditates with happiness. So going forth for us, it isn't as extreme as that. We don't just suddenly leave everything although down a battery did for three months, we've heard that. But that was a three month, which is still a long time, but it was still, we don't really go forth in that way within so extreme. But we still, all adults have an element of choice. So we've still got a choice. However, limiting our circumstances feel and some people present their lives as though they're a victim of circumstances. But we always have a choice and there's always a choice of moving towards a more noble quest or towards a truer refuge. There's always one step that we can make. We can go forth in speech, in mind and in body. So we can go forth from our views. We can go forth from habitual speech. And we can even sort of physically go forth by going on retreat or even within our lives if you can take yourself off just to meditate out of your situation, that's a going forth. Just take that time out of your everyday circumstances. I mean, some people really think there's nothing they can do, but I had a friend who really loved meditating and she had brought up teenage children who were largely on her own. And she said she was so determined to meditate. Sometimes she meditates in the bathroom. So I think her kids were punk, so they didn't wash much. (LAUGHTER) They're like, "Roc, please." So it's just, yeah, there's always something that we can do. And I think going on retreat, we get this feeling that we've gone forth from our everyday situations. So even maybe love your kids to beds, but it's still nice to have a bit of time away from that domestic situation away from the partner. So maybe it's a bit strong to say that her husband disgusts her. But I just thought I'd read out 10 ways in which a woman could be a wife. And then maybe that makes a bit more sense of her sentiment. Hold on. So home, in this sense, can be whatever does not encourage us to grow. It's difficult sometimes to be a new person if you're trying to change and be kinder or aware. And it's difficult sometimes to change in the same situation. So sometimes work situations can feel like that or even family situations. But if we can get away for a period of time, then you sort of build up confidence and strength in that new way of being. And then the confidence to go back builds up. So we need to have contact with our inspiration to keep us going forth. And again, it's up to us to make these choices with all the time we're making choices. What's going to support our intention? And what's going to hold us back? Keep us not growing. Keep us at home in the negative sense. So this is the way a woman can be a wife. So Danna Keita, a woman bought with money for the purpose of sexual pleasure. She sells herself in order to obtain money. Chanda Vassini, a woman kept for passion. She stays with her husband of her own free will because she is one who lives for love. That one sounds good. A woman who enjoys being a common housewife and gets money in return, fair enough. A woman who lives as a wife because she gains clothing, such a woman has usually been poverty-stricken. A woman who provides water, this type of wife is also in love and stays with her own free will. A woman who formerly carried burdens, such as bundles of sticks on her head. Such a wife is called one who has taken off the pad. Darcy, a slave who is taken by her master as his wife. A servant woman who is taken by her master as his wife. A woman brought by flag. Her husband, a warrior, has obtained her by force and made her his wife. A temporary wife, a wife for the moment. So that sort of puts into context why how difficult it was for women at the time and why they would be disgusted or they might be feelings of really strong feelings of wanting to be away from that. But all of us now, men and women, have more opportunity and more choices to make. You know, we're more able to make those choices. So that's going forth. So the next theme, I haven't got anything to link up the themes, but this is the next theme, which is friendship. And this is a poem written by Kisa Go To Me. With good friends, even a fool can be wise. Keep good company and wisdom grows. Those who keep good company can be freed from suffering. So some of the nuns joined the order because of friendships. And in our own community in the Sri Ratna Buddhist community, friendship is emphasized. So this is one of the six characteristics of the movement. The other five are, it's economical. We're going for refugees central. It's an equal ordination for men and women. The importance of art in spiritual life and the emphasis on teamwork and team-based right livelihood. So those are the characteristics of our Buddhist movement compared to other movements. So this emphasis on friendship, it can be lovely, but it can also lead to misunderstandings and pain. Someone once said that our strength, someone outside the movement, critique the movement, saying that our strength is also our weakness. I think it was Stephen Bachelor, you heard that, anyway. And I think one of the things when I'm thinking about friendship, one of the problems is that we want it to happen quickly. And actually it takes time. And one of my favorite readings about friendship is this one where the Buddha's talking to the monks. And he says, he's talking about friendship, and he's saying you need four conditions. And what are these four? And he says monks, it is by association that one's virtue is to be understood. And that too, after a long time, not casually, by close attention, not by inattention, by a wise man, not one weak in wisdom. Monks, it is by living with him that a man's integrity is to be understood. And that too, after a long time, not casually, by close attention, not by inattention, not by a wise man, and not by one weak in wisdom. Monks, it is in times of distress that a man's courage is to be understood. And that too, after a long time, not casually, by close attention, not by inattention, by a wise man, not one weak in wisdom. Monks, it is by converse with him that a man's wisdom is to be understood. And that too, after a long time, not casually, by close attention, not by inattention, by a wise man, not by one weak in wisdom. So what he's saying is that it takes a long time to get to know someone in good times, in bad times, over time, you know, it just takes time. And trust, to build up trust, that takes time, what we expect, instant results. But it's not like that. And recently, a kashafana on Dana Badri's retreat. Apparently, he was talking about the order. There's always women about to join the order. And she was saying it's not that the orders of context for practice, which is what I'd always said before them, but the orders of my context. And she said, no, the order is our practice. And I think, I was thinking, I suppose it's the same for us in Glasgow. This Sanga, the Glasgow Sanga, is our practice. This is it, we are it. So, in the Metabharthner, you could put people from the Sanga in the stages. And recently, I read this thing about the Metabharthner that, 'cause I've heard, of course, we've all heard, Met as a means of developing love, a way of opening your heart and opening up to people. And in this seminar I was reading, Benty was talking about the Metabharthner counteracts our tendency to self-obsession. And the emphasis, there's an outgoing aspect to it. It has got an other regarding aspect. And of course, some people do need to learn to bring themselves in the picture. That is a true thing, you know, psychologically. That's something that people need to do. But most of us, I think, well, I think of myself, I'm quite self-obsessed. And we could do with thinking a bit more about other people, helping other people. And somehow it flips back, I think, and you feel happier about yourself, I suppose. And the whole thing sort of spirals. So from this practice of meta, there's another thing I read that I've been finding interesting to think about, was that unless, if you want to develop friendships, so imagine you've got all these friendly feelings towards people, you can have a lot of friends in a broad sense. But in order to develop a deeper friendship, it needs to be reciprocated. So unless you actually say to someone, it sounds a bit scary, doesn't it? Will you be my friend? And they say yes. There isn't really friendship. It's meta. So this has sort of struck me that it needs to be explicit before this friendship. And I think I've had times in my life where I've been in a sort of situation where I had lots of people that I'd meet up with and we'd hang out together as a gang sort of thing. But then I would step back and realise but I don't have any friends, that's not me. And then, but you don't want to go to the other extreme and just have a few close friends and not be open to new things happening. So it's a balance. And maybe in our lives, we need to go one way or the other. And I think you're supposed the most explicit that you can make this or we in our community is when we talk about Kaliana Mitra-ta and having a Kaliana Mitra ceremony. And this is where three people commit to friendship. And if I've done this, I've taken it very seriously. And some people say this, this go over lifetimes. So the commitment is that you'll stay in touch with that person, even if they go through really difficult times, that you'll stay in touch with them. And the other side, there are people who are my, we could talk about KMs. Then that gives me a sense of confidence, knowing that these people have said yes, they'll be there for me if I have a difficult time. So good company. In this poem, she's talking about good company. And we are influenced by the people we spend time with. So if you're having doubts about the spiritual life, who do we talk to? What choices would you make? Who would you go and talk to? If you talk to someone else with doubts, that's gonna have an effect. If you talk to someone who's maybe a bit clearer and more positive, that's gonna have an effect. So basically, I think we go to, depends on what we want to hear, who we go to. And I'm talking about doubts rather than, it's good questions, isn't it? It's good to have a good old thrashing out of a good question, but doubt is that sort of insidious? What's the point? You can be self-doubt, you know, I can't do this. Who am I, or what's this? But it doesn't really, no, it takes all sorts of forms. So what keeps to go to me is saying is how important it is to seek good company. And that is others who are committed to realising the truth. So what I find is if there's something going on, if I'm actually feel as though I'm growing and feeling more free and open, then I'm less likely to have doubts because then I've got, I'm feeling the effects. I think this is working, something's happening, I'm changing. But it's those sort of dry patches where things feel frozen, and for me is sort of waking up in the morning with a heavy heart, is it awkward? What's the point? I suppose I go to the night elastic and what's the point of getting up out of bed and it seems a real struggle and getting on the cushions for poor. Well, in those times, I don't actually always get on the cushions unless they're late, but there you go, that would be a thing that helped. So I find that that's when I need good friends the most, when that sort of happens. But then as Donna Vadry said, I thought of this when you're in your talk, when you, another time that you can get doubts is you make a really positive step, you're really changing. And then Mara appears, who are you to be doing that? And again, it's good friends that say, "Well, why not you?" "Yeah, look at all that you've done, look at all the changes you've made." So also this theme of friendship, what I have found is that, and this is developed in the Tree Ratnabirders community, well, in the order, is that on the whole, women can go deeper with other women in friendship. And I've heard that men, you'll have to back me up here, men can go deeper with other men. And generally the issues that come up when you're practicing and when you want to go deeper are more similar with people of the same gender and the way you work with them or need to work with them are more similar. This is just generally, this is a sort of general thing, but definitely I've found, although I do have men friends, (laughs) my friends are a man, so. My closest deepest friendships are with women, and that's who I would turn to when I really, really needed support. And I think it's good to have some element of single sex in our lives. So you're giving yourself that opportunity to go a bit deeper. And again, it's up to each of us to choose those situations depending on our circumstances, what, how we could do that. And I suppose the thing about single sex situation, sometimes it's put across as, or it's good because if you're away from distractions, sexual distractions. But that's not true. It's more to do with the principle is friendship. That's what, that's the principle underlying it, is going deeper in friendship rather than sexuality or sex. That'll give you something to talk about. (laughs) I suppose the thing about, you know, on single sex things, or on any retreats, what can happen is you get opened up and people start to seem beautiful. You know, you can, that sort of love, love, feelings, the trick is to spread it out and fall in love with everyone. But sometimes it can sort of hook onto one person, even on single sex retreats. And the heterosexual women are the worst. (audience laughs) You'll have to fill everyone in on the men's. (audience laughs) Okay, so that's friendship. This is just water, honest. (audience laughs) (audience laughs) In permanence. So this is a poem by a nun called Mitakali. Although I left home for no home and wandered full of faith, I was still greedy for possessions and craze. I lost my way. My passions used me and I forgot the real point of my wandering life. Then as I sat in my little cell, there was only one terror. I thought, this is the wrong way, a fever of longing controls me. Life is short. Age and sickness gnaw away. I have no time for carelessness before this body breaks. And as I watch the elements of mind and body rise and fall away. I saw them as they really are. I stood up. My mind was completely free. The Buddhist teaching had been done. So at the beginning of this is quite good because she's talking about still being greedy for possessions and craze. So even though she ticked the boxes, so to speak, in that she'd physically gone forth, she was still resorting to her old ways of being. So I think it's quite good because it shows that lifestyle is a means, not an end in itself. So it's a means to seeing things as they really are. So even we were talking in our group the other day. You might be sitting on the cushion. But who knows what you're doing? You know, you could have a wee snooze. You know, it's not the things in themselves. It's the effect they're having. You might go on retreat or go and live in a community, but be quite stuck. And you might be living in a family situation and be making quite a lot of progress. It's not that such and such a thing is the thing. Some things set up conditions that might make it easier. But it's quite important to remember that everything is just a means, not an end in itself. And then the life is short and the body fading away. Well, I know intellectually that I'm going to die, but emotionally, I don't believe it, or it's going to happen sometime in the long time in the future when I'm an old lady and I'll just wave off my files who will all be still alive. And just sort of, it'll be painless and pleasant and so on. But it's not like that, I'm sure we all know that. And sometimes, even if we can't emotionally connect with our own impermanence, there's a death of a close relative might have that effect or someone we know. And those times we can have that experience of really remembering what is important. I remember being with my Martha when she was terminally ill and just coming out of the hospital and looking at what were these people rushing about, you know, it just seems such madness. And looking at advertisements and thinking, how bizarre, you know, there's all these sort of things going on. And you think, well, why isn't everyone talking about this? People die. And I'm going out for coffees with people talking about it. It's such an intense thing. You can't understand at that time why everyone isn't talking about it. But it's amazing how you forget how I've forgotten, I've forgotten that intensity and I got back. But it's good to make use of those things that give us a reminder, you know, a serious illness. Even a not so serious illness can be a little reminder. And I find my own aging is a good one. 'Cause Zuravans, as you said, it's looking back, straight in the mirror. So I was going to read just a couple of amber parlays. I know Zuravansa did them, but I've had them too. Fragrant as a scented oak, I wore flowers in my hair. Now, because of old age, it smells like dog's hair. This is the teaching of one who speaks the truth. My eyebrows were crescents painted well. Now they droop and are wrinkled as well. This is the one, this is the teaching of one who speaks the truth. My eyes flashed like jewels, long black. Now they don't make anyone look back. This is the teaching of one who speaks the truth. My teeth were beautiful, the color of plantain buds. Now because of old age, they are broken and yellow. This is the teaching of one who speaks the truth. My breasts were beautiful, high, close together and round. Now like empty water bags, they hang down. This is the teaching of one who speaks the truth. My thighs were beautiful, like an elephant's trunk. Now because of old age, they are like bamboo stalks. This is the teaching of one who speaks the truth. There's more, but I'll leave it to that. So I'm not quite as bad as that, but I'm getting there. So this gives us that sort of felt experience that we're not gonna last forever. So I think it's quite good to use those, that experience. And you might as well get on with it now, with whatever is really important to us. It's up to each of us to decide what is important and just get on with that and not get distracted by things that aren't important. Though we didn't have consensus in our group, whether this was an inspiring poem or not. 'Cause the other side, which is valid point, was well, what's all the fuss about? Just get on with it, who cares? What's happening to your breasts or your legs or your, but just get on with it. So that's another sort of point which, but the purpose is to give us a bit of incentive to focus on what is important. So to, in conclusion, I've got some questions. Put a copy on the board as well. So they're going for, I mean, you don't have to do this exactly, but it was just, I was trying to think, just the sort of things you could ask yourselves. Why did I start coming to the center? So that would get you to your initial motivation. What have I gone forth from? Things that you've already done. And what would I like to go forth for more? Or what would I like to move towards? But in a way, we sort of covered that a bit with the Moghavadras Middle Way yesterday, but there might be something in there. And how do we coax ourselves from seeking refuge in false refuges to true refuges? So it's like, sometimes you come up with little tricks to get yourself in the right direction. So, and then friendship. Quite hard to think of questions, but I thought something I, is there anything that blocks us from going deeper with others? And is there anything we could do about this? So sort of looking at where you could go a bit deeper. And then for impermanence, well, we know that things are impermanent, but how deep does that knowledge go? And are there times in our lives when we have been more or less aware of our own death? So it's both extreme extremes. And if you recognize that things are impermanent, how are you gonna live now? We hope you enjoyed this week's podcast. Please help us keep this free. Make a contribution at freebuddhistaudio.com/donate. And thank you. (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) You