Coffee House Shots
The politics of prime ministerial holidays
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So, Katie, just to start us off, can you give us a little update on how number 10 have managed this story over the course of this week? At the time of recording, we still don't know for sure if Kia Starma is going on a holiday or not, but as you point to, I think it's politically problematic if he chooses to. There are some saying, "Oh, let him get on the sun lounger" or whatever he might be going, is often safe of politically to also do a UK holiday. Do we know where he's going? Well, for security reasons, they're never going to say these things in advance, and they also aren't going to say the Prime Minister's travels plan really until they have already happened. So at some point, an announcement will come. I think that there's a long history of the pitfalls of going on holiday if you are a politician, which I'm sure we'll get to in due calls. I remember during the election campaign, Kia Starma gave this interview to one of the radio stations, and in it, he said that he didn't work Friday nights, really come what may. He said, "There was some very rare occasions that he might, but that's the rule in his house." And I think because the quote was slightly complicated, when the quote first went around, people thought he meant he didn't work after 6, 7pm any night of the week, which the Tories quickly say, "Work, try Kia Starma." And then that was killed, and she said, "Well, you know, it's fair enough to try and spend time with your family." But I was thinking about that quote this week, which is the idea of having that time off. And then the fact that right now, Kia Starma doesn't even look like he can take a summer break after it clearly has been a very intense start to the year, the election, going straight into the election campaign to being Prime Minister. And of course, the risk for Kia Starma, if he does choose to go on holiday, while there is violent disorder, is that he looks, you know, so he's not taking the new job particularly seriously. Now you can say, "Oh, you should be allowed to have deputies who fill in for you. What is Angina Raina for other than being a deputy prime minister?" But I think it's a question about leadership. Given the rights appear to have slowed down, there was a landing zone, but then you have the risk of, "Do you go on the holiday?" And then something happens, and the whole news cycle becomes, "Well, when he's picking his flight back, when he's getting the train back." Because I think we all remember probably the most famous holiday gone wrong for a politician recently, it's Dominic Rob. Yes. And that was the fall of Cavill when ultimately the US and allies left Afghanistan, and Dominic Rob was on holiday. And he stayed on holiday for quite a time. There was, you know, all these kind of not live action cams in terms of where he was, in terms of the Sun Langer, but definitely constant updates. And of course, you could say, "Oh, well, we can work from home," but the Tory government didn't like people working from home, then it wasn't this. And I think it meant when things started to go wrong, the response got worse and worse. And I don't think Rob ever quite lived that down after it, and was also quite bitter about the fact that he couldn't take a holiday. John, I'm interested in your take on this, because you wrote in The Independent saying that, I mean, of course, you should be allowed to go on holiday. Yeah, no. Well, I think he, I think, yes, I'm a should-go on holiday, because the, well, this is assuming that the riots have stopped. I mean, there's a danger that they could start again. I mean, the weather at the beginning of next week is going to be extremely hot. That's one of the main factors. But assuming that they don't, and assuming that these sentences have a terrible effect, then, you know, maybe for the purposes of PR, it might be quite useful if he postponed going on holiday for a day. And assuming that he's going on holiday somewhere in the UK, which I think would be sensible for a first holiday, for a new prime minister, I think he should just, he should just go. And we shouldn't pay too much attention to opinion polls. I mean, you mustn't believe what people say in opinion polls unless you, you've got to, you've got to take it all with a pinch of salt. I mean, people will say whatever you expect them to say. I mean, people will obviously say they hate politicians. They don't like politicians going on holiday. They don't like politicians being paid. They don't like politicians traveling in any form of luxury. Anything was the word private in they don't like. So politicians going on private jets, you know, that's sort of 90% no. But I mean, actually, if you paid attention, too much attention to opinion polls, politicians wouldn't do anything. And so would you say this speaks to a wider debate that we're having over MPs welfare, the way that we treat them and some of the expectations that we have on them? Yeah, well, I mean, Katie's right. I mean, Katie said it was about leadership. And as long as Kim Starmer looks as if he's leading, which he has done over the past few days, I think he's done, he's done all the right things. He said all the right things. He's echoed Margaret that just saying nothing can justify the violence. And he has, I mean, he hasn't actually done that much has shed some, some meetings, some so-called cobra meetings, which sound more dramatic than they actually are. But, you know, he has allowed the justice system to work and the sentence sentences to be handed down that are having a deterrent effect. So he has shown leadership, he's been out in front of the cameras, speaking for the nation. And the nation is very much of the view that, you know, everything short of live ammunition should be used to put down these, these riots. And as long as he's done that, I think he can show leadership by going on holiday and saying, you know, I'm, you know, I need to manage my time. I'm prime minister. And I need to spend some time with my family. Casey, I wondered what your take was on the idea that maybe Rishi Sunak has made this slightly more difficult for Kia Stama. One of the big issues of his premiership was being in the wrong place at the wrong time, for example, the D-Day commemorations. Do you think Kia Stama is perhaps trying to learn from those mistakes? I don't know. There's too much similarity in terms of leaving a D-Day veteran event. Oh, of course, that number 10 would have said the veterans were not at the second event, but you know, leaving D-Day commemorations early, I don't think is akin to going on holiday, but obviously it just points out the level of scrutiny and criticism you're going to get and attention for where you go. Rishi Sunak is on holiday, but also Rishi Sunak is the leader of the opposition and currently has six people trying to take his job. So he's still being criticized for being on holiday. I think it's worth pointing out. So I'm saying he should be stepping up right now and talking about a United society. And instead, it appears that he is in California where you might have expected him to be if you have read anything about where his heart lies. So I think you cannot win on it. Yeah, I mean, because Kia Stama, I think, has taken very much to heart the D-Day bar called particularly because it was such a big issue in the election campaign, because Rishi Sunak was very rational about the use of a Prime Minister's time and just didn't think it was worth. I mean, if you remember, when he first became Prime Minister, he refused initially to go to a climate summit, an international climate summit in Sharmel Shake, in Egypt, because he just didn't think it was worth going all that way, just to hang around for a photo up and have a few side chats with world leaders. But he was persuaded to change his mind and eventually win. We should have seen the D-Day disaster coming. But I think there's a danger in overreacting to that and feeling that you always have to do whatever superficial opinion polls suggest the British public want. I think if you do show a bit of leadership and show that you're in control, you should be able to take reasonably sensible decisions about taking a bit of time off. So, Katie, looking back then at some of the other Prime Ministers or MPs that have been caught out for going on holiday, could you take us through some of the ones that stick out in your memory? In terms of, I think, Prime Minister Holidays, I remember a while ago now, I think it was back in 2016, when Sajajev was Business Secretary and he went to Sydney and had planned to combine what I think was technically a trade trip and then also make it become a holiday. But when he got there, there was suddenly a steel crisis. So, he wasn't able to stay for the holiday part and he had to fly back almost as quickly as he landed, which effectively landed in Australia and just turned back immediately and came all the way back to the UK. And then, of course, as soon as you do, then I've been still criticising you for going in the first place. We've also had the Pretty Patel holiday slash work trip. Do you remember that one, John? Yeah, absolutely. We remember following that on what's it called? A sky scanner or what? Yeah, we had a flight tracking, watching the plane. Because Pretty Patel had gone to Israel and it wasn't clear that this was actually sanctioned within her job, and it was a slight work trip, but also a holiday. And then, lovely journalists, particularly because this all happens in August when there tends to be less news to cover if you are a lovely journalist. Parliament is not sitting. So, before you know, everyone who has not managed to go on holiday in the lobby, he's probably a bit bitter than on holiday in August. Not cool that I'm saying that we're sat in this room doing this podcast, is suddenly saying, "How dare they get away?" You know, and tweeting every minute. So, I think that adds to it. And what about you, John? Are there any perhaps from the Blair Brown years that stick out? Oh, I mean, well, Attorney Blair was mostly getting into trouble for accepting freebies from rich friends of his, including that prince in Italy. But he didn't tend to be criticized for going on holiday when there was a crisis. I mean, he was usually quite attuned to public opinion and would make sure that he would come back. I mean, I seem to remember there was the Omar bombing that happened when he was on holiday in France. But I mean, obviously, he came back for that, for a day or two. The one that I do remember recently is the sort of footnote to the fall of Kabul was Boris Johnson was trying to go on holiday at the same time. I mean, Dominic Raab ended up getting all the flack. But Boris Johnson was trying to get a quick family holiday in Somerset and ended up, I mean, it was a bit like Sadja Javed in Australia, but not quite so dramatic. He ended up going to Taunton one day and coming back the next, I think, by train. And he kept on going up and down the country as the situation in Afghanistan and sort of grew worse. And I think there is evidence that perhaps things you say in opposition, not things you do when you get in, kids are kept criticizing Rishi Cinek for getting around on a helicopter or doing these quick trips. But since he has become prime minister in that election campaign is doing much of the same of itself, because I say less about scoring a political point. So much as clearly, it's incredibly impractical in terms of a prime minister's time to go on four different train journeys where they get delayed by every 45 minutes and get things done. Now, I understand why labor and opposition attacked Rishi Cinek for doing so, because particularly they wanted to say he's out of touch. He doesn't know what the trains are like. We know what the trains are like, but now he's time is in. I mean, perhaps there's a sign again of that R word they love to say about him, rooflessness. He's quite happy to just switch tack because he is prime minister in terms of getting those things done. I suppose it would just be better if maybe there was more of a general acceptance, whether you were in opposition or in power, that what we expect of politicians a lot of the time is verging on a bit ridiculous. There's lots of things we should expect than they don't do, but in terms of how they get around what they do, holidays and so forth, it's a lot. I just think that as tends to be the case of some of these naughty political issues, political parties can't help but start scoring points when they have the opportunity to. Yeah, I think the labor's hypocrisy in attacking Rishi Cinek for helicopter trips and chartered jet flights will come back to bite them because Kirstalmer will need to use his time as prime minister efficiently. I mean, the most important commodity in Downing Street is the prime minister's time and you've got to manage it efficiently. I mean, I remember when Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair, he said, "I'm not going to have any of these presidential motorcades anymore. I'm not going to have police outriders." Within a couple of days, he was an hour and a half late for some school meeting in South London because he got stuck in traffic and the police outriders came back. I mean, this is how politics works. Great. Well, thank you, Katie. Thank you, John. And thank you very much for listening. And if you do enjoy the podcast and you're listening on Apple podcasts or on Spotify, please do give us a follow. It really helps us out and would be greatly appreciated.